Icon #3: Ms. Piggy w/ Jamie Loftus

Hello, The Internet!™, and welcome to this spinoff episode of The Daily Zeitgeist we’re calling The Iconograph: a show about icons.

In this episode, Miles and Jack are joined by writer/actor/comedian/podcaster Jamie Loftus to talk about the woman. the pig. the legend:

Ms. Piggy.

They'll explore her origin story, relationship with Kermit (and lackthereof with Fozzie), and her status as a queer icon?

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I got Blueberry Mango I found.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
I found it the other day. I was like, all right, group, Yeah, blu.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
Group remember those Intel commercials icons?

Speaker 4 (00:16):
Group Group is coming?

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Is that on your list? Blue Man Group?

Speaker 4 (00:20):
It's not, but it's just an added blue group ship.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yeah, Blue Man groups definitely Blue Man Group.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Oh yeah, there's nothing funnier than a Blue Man Group revealed.
There's like a literary fiction writer who I really like.
I was on her Wikipedia page and it was like
she was formal she's divorced from a blue Man and
you're like, oh wow, You're like that's who that book
was about.

Speaker 5 (00:42):
That's crazy because they're all like these like art dudes
from New York. Is how it started, and then it
just turned into like a Vegas It was like such
a New York thing.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
I felt like, Yeah, they're like like ex Brooklyn guys
who like needed work. And I was like, wow, she
got her heart stomped on by a blue Man that
I hear.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
You ought to know is actually about bloom Blue Man. Yeah,
that's right. A lot of the founding Blue Man.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to this spinoff episode of Guys,
which we're calling the Iconograph. Instead of looking at the
zeitgeist through current events. We're looking at it through the
lens of the powerful pop cultural hore cruxes that are
our icons. We use these characters to create meaning, to

(01:31):
build identity, to learn conversational French, to know the appropriate
sound to make when beating the shit out of our
long term boyfriend, which is there?

Speaker 3 (01:42):
It is hell, that's right.

Speaker 4 (01:44):
In this episode we're talking Piggy's Miss Piggy, if you're nasty,
and that's why I did leave it for you, Miles,
with apologies to Kermit the Frog and David Bowie's codpiece,
maybe the most famous and beloved of Jim Henson's creations,
Miss Piggy, to be joined, as always by my co host,
mister Oh.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
I love this. I love it. I love it. Starting
off and I'm like, it's this, that's not you know, we're.

Speaker 5 (02:10):
Habitual, habitual doing the show one way. That's great, great.
I love the topic, dude. I love a good love
a good hy Yah. It's like an earworm. It's like
an earworm of a thing when you really get it
like that, it's smart, that's right, it's hitting it tingles
the brain a little bit.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
Little tease. It is the first thing. It's the thing
that crystallized the character for Francos when he did, like
he improvised that, and it was like, oh, this is
when I understood the character for the first time.

Speaker 5 (02:41):
Drugs with this guy. Wow, oh fuck, yeah, this is
a character.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I found it well.

Speaker 4 (02:51):
That who you heard in the background in our third seat?
One of the very faces on Mount Zeitemore an Emmy
nominated writer, artist, comedian behind many of the most acclaimed
podcasts like Cast, Ghost Church, The Bechdel Cast, Sixteenth Minute
of Fame. She's the New York Times best selling author
of Raw Dolgh.

Speaker 5 (03:09):
It's Jamie Loft, Jamie.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Hell yeah, hell yeah. Feels good, right good, I feel good.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
I don't think I've ever hit someone with the high yah.

Speaker 6 (03:23):
You know.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
Yeah, just like a cute thing to do to your partner,
as long as you don't like fucking smash.

Speaker 5 (03:30):
Actually she's like a powerful attack she had, Like she
was like, yeah, his arms, have you seen his arms?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh my god, he goes There have to be ones
where he just goes flying, right.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, there is there, yeah, where he just goes flying
like it's a fucking explosion and a mission impossible, Like.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
And I get a YouTube.

Speaker 5 (03:55):
If there's like a basic Piggy compilations just her fucking
ship up.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
I don't like it.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
I found one earlier. Guys, thank you so much for joining.
Jamie so so excited to have you here for this.
I did hear your Bechdel Cast episode about the Muppet Movie,
so I was like, gotta have Jamie on for Miss
Piggy because you're you're a Piggy Stan.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
I'm a Piggy Stan.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
I wish, I wish I was more like her, but
I feel like everyone has their inner Miss Piggy. But yeah,
I really need to start, uh, you know, really hitting
people more.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think that's that's what we're learning.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
The main takeaway, yeah and.

Speaker 4 (04:40):
Whatever vo She doesn't really understand French, but she sprinkles
it throughout and that's cute. Do you guys have like
a singular like, oh, that's when I when Miss Piggy
was crystallized for me in your memory. Like I was
looking back and I was like, oh, I think the
first time I encountered her was on those like reading

(05:01):
posters in elementary school classrooms like she was, and then
that was the first time I encountered grown up Miss Piggy.
Because I knew Miss Piggy from Muppet Babies.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Right right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (05:14):
I think for me it probably starts like anyone I
was like, it was always Kermit and Miss Piggy in
my mind.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah, so I a couple.

Speaker 5 (05:22):
I can't think of, like even if I knew Kermit
before Miss Piggy. I feel like to me, they entered
my brain at the same time, even though I think,
what Kermit she didn't? It was always Kermit first. But look,
I was a kid, it was the eighties. I didn't
know shit, we're going to get into it.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I think my entry point to Miss Piggy. I think
the first Mubbet thing I remember seeing is Muppet Treasure Island.
I have a vivid memory of getting into a big
fight with my cousin because we were fighting over because
the kid who plays Jim Hawkins, we both had a
crush on him and we were fighting over who gets

(05:56):
to marry him, and it was.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
The marriage right and we start.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
We would do that over every like boy protagonist in
a movie. We also did it over There's a movie
called Casper A New Beginning, and there was an identical
looking boy that we would just we would hie out
each other for this, like you know, mysterious child's hand
in marriage.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
So I remember miss pegging that Muppet Christmas Carol.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
I feel like I saw the movies before I saw
the ever saw the TV show right.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
Real quick, some kind of icon bona fee D's because
last week we talked about how popular Arcle was that
you know, every season from season two through seven of
his show like destroyed. What the most watched TV in
modern times is? I think it was like pulling in
twenty to twenty seven million viewers a week. The most

(06:47):
viewed show currently is Monday Night Football at like sixteen
million people. I just want to read this description of
the Muppet Show when it was on. It aired in
over one hundred countries and had a weekly worldwide audience
by nineteen seventy eight of two hundred and thirty five
million people. No fucking way stop, because it was everywhere.

(07:12):
It was like so global.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
I feel like maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like
it Up until fairly recently, I feel it was sort
of difficult to find old episodes of the Muppet Show.
I didn't see them until I was in college, and
the guests they were pulling was like, yeah, so I
don't know, I feel like whatever, we don't have monoculture
at all anymore, but particularly like monoculture that was pulling

(07:35):
so many different kinds of people as the hosts, like
I've I had the Rudolph narre Of episode had a
very strong impression of me, like they would have like
Ballerinas hosting, Yeah, shock culture.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
To two hundred and thirty five million people, that's nuts.

Speaker 4 (07:52):
It is a weird mix of high and low. And
then just for for my example, the thing that proves
to me the lasting power, like how iconic them up?
That's are. Something we were talking about was there's that
LCD sound System video for Dance Yourself Clean that like
every white guy is like, have you seen this?

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Have you seen this YouTube video? It's like for Dance
Yourself Clean, but it's got.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Muppets in it, and the video like objectively sucks.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
It's not a good video. Was a few days ago.

Speaker 5 (08:23):
You brought it up and we started watching it and
I was like, I had never seen it.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
I was like this.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
Brian was just and brought it up and was like
every white guy just like I've been shown this by
three different white guys, and I was like me too,
and then we watched it and we were like this sucks.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, guys, the City Puitier, like the guests they would
have on the show were absolutely like yeah, and everyone
is having the time of their lives, because how could
you not, like, it's just so cool.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Harry Belafonte another really good episode.

Speaker 7 (08:58):
Just really, I just said, made that up, rich. I
just thought the image of acting trash cans funny, believable.
He'll do that, right, he was.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
You know, it's like Sidney getting a fucking trash can.

Speaker 4 (09:15):
Now we shouln't believe anything you say in the chat
Right ship. Wait, okay, I feel like I remember that. Yeah,
New Mandelac the City More when they had Nelson mandela on.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
After he died. Was right, Yeah, it's just the Benstein bears.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Well, the Harry Belafonte episode is genuinely great.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
Yes, all right, So Miles, to your point of like,
Kermit was first, and then Miss Piggy she was invented
in nineteen seventy four, Kermit came around in nineteen fifty five,
Ralph the Dog nineteen sixty two, and then Miss Piggy
is like the next kind of iconic character. But Ralph
the dog was like invented for a dog chow commercial.

(10:01):
It seems like a lot of these things were like
invented on an as needed basis. They were like, I
don't know, we need a we need a girl one,
let's do it. Let's do a pig. And then they
like kind of iterate on it. But it's Kermit as
old as fuck. First of all, like the borderline problematic
that they had a relationship. But uh, then seventy five
animal Sam the Eagles, Statler and Wald or the Swedish chef.

(10:25):
Seventy six we got Fozzy, which we can talk about Fozzy,
but yeah, they just seem to do it on an
as needed basis. And then you know, now that puppet
exists and now we can like do stuff with that puppet.
But I want to talk before because.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
You know the interesting phrasing, interesting phrase. Now we can
do that, we can do stuff.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, we can do that. We can think about it.

Speaker 4 (10:52):
We can create backstories as we'll get into you can
get it. Yeah, now we can.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Do Now we can do stuff with that puppet. We
think about it. I feel like Ralph the Dog has
fallen off in the public, like.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
Falling off.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
I don't dislike Ralph as I dislike other muppets.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, we'll get to that, but I think he's fallen
off a bit.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
Not a not a huge Fozzy fan from what I've.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Heard, not a huge Fozzy fan.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Fozzy's triggering for me.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
Uh, Miss Piggy for some reason, this tax stand up
comedian is triggering to somebody.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
I could see Fazzy. Whenever I look, I can see Fozzy.
If I look in the mirror, I can't see. I
can't be around Fozzy. I see five fozzis a night.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
It's all Fozzies. Miss Piggy wasn't actually a Jim Henson creation.
She was actually designed by Bonnie Erickson, who this is
somebody that I didn't know about coming into this. Uh.
She also like she's invented a bunch of the mascots
that are like still roaming NBA stadiums to this day.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Maybe her like it right up.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
There with Miss Piggy, depending on who you're talking to,
the Philly Fanatic mascot. She designed.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
The Philly Fanatic. That makes perfect sense because that rocks.

Speaker 5 (12:20):
The Philly Fanatic does feel like something off a Henson show.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yeah, it has Henson vibes. I mean, she was I
think like the director of the workshop. But on designing
the Philly Fanatic, she said, the managers approached us to
design a mascot who could encourage fans to bring their
families to the games. So we had to design a
character who was child friendly, was playful and a little irreverent,
but not too silly. We'd heard from the Phillies that

(12:44):
their crowd had booed the Easter Bunny. Was the challenge
to come up with something that was not going to
talk down to their audience, Like that is what you
think about it. In fact, she created a silly billy
child muppet mass Scott that Philly has just completely embraced.
Is such an accomplishment that we just like take for granted.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
And then when did the Philly Fanatic launch? Was it
like around the same time.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
Around the same time.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
She kind of she was just like fucking on fire
for like four years. She created I mean, she created
Statler and Waldorf, she created a bunch of like really
iconic characters, and she created Miss pig So Miss Piggy's
name was originally Miss Piggy Lee as a reference to
Peggy Lee, who was a jazz singer who I wasn't

(13:34):
that familiar with. I went and listened to like her
top songs on Apple Music, and they're either Christmas songs
or like wildly depressed.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
Oh yeah, like rocking around the Christmas Tree? Is Peggy?
Is that Peggy Lee?

Speaker 2 (13:47):
And I was like, am I confusing? Who's you?

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Is that Peggy something Fever is her? So that's her?

Speaker 4 (13:53):
That's her. But then she has this one called is
That All There Is? Oh?

Speaker 3 (13:58):
I love that song.

Speaker 4 (14:00):
Oh it's dark. It's like it tells the story of
like being at a Christmas party or at a birthday
party when you're young and like is that all there is?
And going to a circus and being like is that
all there is? And then she's like and I know
what you think, I'm going to kill myself. But I
know if I killed myself as I was like going
to the Pearly Gates, I'd just be like, is that

(14:20):
all there is?

Speaker 3 (14:21):
It's a really.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
Dark shit, which there's there's a lot of like dark
stuff in Piggy like written into her backstory that I
was not familiar with didn't read to me.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
I wonder if peggyly ever like got like met her,
because I get it I get why they didn't keep them.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
That's why they had to.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, she's threatened to sue over the puppet, so Miss
Piggy Lye became simply Miss Piggy.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Like, now, you'd be honored to have Miss Piggy associated
Kelly untested if they're like, so there's this pig on TV.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
And yeah, I get hair like you.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Are already depressing, right, boyfriend.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
She started out she's incredibly abusive.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
She started out like as sort of a background character.
She was in like a sketch about Planet of the
Apes where it was like Planet of the Pigs, and
she was just like one of the characters. She had
like little button eyes. She didn't have her big like
beautiful colored iris.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Eyes like.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
A doll's eyes. And she didn't sound like herself yet
it was she was at that time played by Jerry
Nelson doing just like a real standard guy doing a
girl voice. It was just girl. It's just like that. Well, yeah,

(15:52):
I know it wasn't quite that good. Sorry I'm a
professional voice man, but yeah, but it does. I mean,
like I was saying the so eloquently before about how
they create the puppet and that puppet exists and now
they can do stuff with that puppet.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
I do.

Speaker 4 (16:11):
It's it kind of reminds me of like SNL talent, Jamie.
One of my favorite of your obsessions is like when
an SNL person like shows up on the thing and
then two years later they look completely different.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
They got the Veneers, they got.

Speaker 4 (16:24):
The Veneers, they got the glow up.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
They literally I like to like, Lord Michael slams your
head against the table and thought, he was like, I
guess you need.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
You need new teeth now.

Speaker 4 (16:36):
But I feel like if you can make their eyes bigger,
he probably would, right.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, give him the watch call what's that
movie the Clockwork Orange?

Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yeah, but also this is second week in a row
where we're covering a character who became arguably the most
iconic thing from their world and who starts out in
the background, and then we watch as they just like
grow and grow as the public responds more and more
to them. But yeah, I just I do think in

(17:07):
terms of like why we have Miss Piggy, it's like
having the multiple projects iterating, and then when they needed
a female character, they went to a woman who just
like happened to be a genius and was like inventing
huge chunks of popular culture in like just a few
short years.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
That's so I still can't get past two hundred and
thirty five million people.

Speaker 4 (17:31):
Yeah, thirty five million people.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
That is just like, wow, Okay, that's everybody. That's isn't
every person? That's everybody.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
That's everyone in the war people, everyone in the world.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
So people watching puppets on TV, Like, that's that's nuts.

Speaker 5 (17:50):
I mean because it is also I mean, like when
you think about it, Rkele had twenty something million for
a few years in America versus two hundred and thirty
five globally, and you're like, oh, that's why. Like I
feel like children now, Like you show a kid and
wherever most places like do you know this character? And
they'd be like miss Piggy and I'm like do you
know who this is? And They're like, that's a man

(18:11):
with suspenders on? Right, So I'm like, that's curcle, but
that's fun. You're just not cultured.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well, I'm also sure I'm guessing.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
I mean, I don't know much about like muppets internationally,
but it must be like there's so it's like such
a double bowle show that it's got to be super
easy to adapt to it basically anywhere.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, puppets, upets are great.

Speaker 4 (18:32):
Puppets are Puppets are great. Is also one of my
conclusions that I come to, like I was saying. Her
breakout moment came when oz improvised her trademark karate chop
during a scene with Kermit. Originally the script called for
a slap, but he decided to go with a karate chop,
which then allowed him to his quote is the script
called for Piggy to slap Kermit. Instead of a slap,

(18:54):
I gave him a funny karate hit. Somehow, that hit
crystallized her character for me, the coyness, hiding the aggression,
the conflict of that love with her desire for a career,
her hunger for glamour image, her tremendous out and out ego.
Which it's just interesting that that was so foundational for
him because it's also the first thing, like my brain
spits out when I like think of miss Piggy. If

(19:16):
I like have to think of her doing something, it's
the karate chop.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
It's so good. I love hearing like actors talk about
like they're silly ass character because it has to be so,
I mean, and it is important that like it has
to sound so important. My favorite example of that is,
do you guys remember when Bill Nihi played mewtwo in
Detective Pikachu.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
No, I mean, I know, well he.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Did, and I love sometimes I'll go if I can
watch his interviews about that movie for fun, because he's
just like when I folds about Mew two and you're
just like, You're like, yeah, man, you sound like an idiot,
but that is your Like I just loved it.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, Like frank Oz is like, how how does the
pig think? Where's she coming from?

Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yeah, we're gonna be like and then this is it
her frustration.

Speaker 5 (20:09):
She's trying to balance it all, her career, her love
life in this high Yah.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
I'm like, did you really think that at the time?
Did you know it's just sort.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
Of a performer that's okay, Yeah, Because I think a
lot of the cases, these moments of inspiration for these
that kind of characters come when they're like like in
this case, it was just like I needed to do
a thing, and I did this instead of the thing
that the script called for. And then like it like
kind of all comes together with Rkle like we were

(20:37):
talking about he like at the audition, he was like,
I don't know, like I went out of body, like
I blacked out and like came to and I was
like everyone was laughing, right, Like that's also like Elvis,
the character of Elvis, which like wasn't how he actually
was as a bit because he was like tanking this
like he was like trying to sing a song and

(20:57):
it was like all serious and sad, and everyone's like,
this guy fucking stinks. And then he like started goofing
around and doing the Elvist voice and people were like.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Do that, Like I think I.

Speaker 4 (21:10):
Want this guy, but I feel like it's like the
creator needs to get out of their own way or
something to like then have it all like come together.
But yeah, so Frank Oz ends up being the person
who plays Piggy. I always thought it was because Piggy
and Fozzy fucking hated each other, but Oz actually plays

(21:31):
both of them, and so that's why they're never around
at the same time. Jamie, do you think there's any
way this is the reason you hate.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Fozzy Because if Fozzy's on Screenzzy.

Speaker 4 (21:43):
Like literally getting in the way of Kermit and Piggy.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
More, Missy, I just think Fozzy like needs to hang.

Speaker 4 (21:51):
It up, Like I just it's hard for me. You
think it's because he fucking sucks? Is that why? Well?

Speaker 2 (21:59):
I think he's really he really stinks up the place
for a number of reasons. But like if all, like
a lot of the early Muppets movies are about them
trying to make it big, and it's like Fozzy is
an active hindrance. I'm not rooting for his success. I like,
he's not gonna make it. He's not going to make it,
and he's getting in everyone else's way, and I need

(22:20):
him to move back home. Where did they where? Because
I forget in the Muppet movie where you know.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
He gets start from Yeah, I forget. Yeah, it's like
somewhere isn't he along the way? Don't they like he
find him somewhere along the way, Like.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Can I just be Yeah?

Speaker 5 (22:39):
And it's like go back Elselezo Cafe, I think is
what it was called.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
And realistically, Fozzy's got to go to grad school and
like he just has to pack it up.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
He bums me out.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
I just love you would be a character in him
up at film who plays like the bad Hollywood manager
who's like, look, Kermit, you got to get rid of Fozzy.
He's getting in the way. He's an active hindrance to
your career. Kid, Hey, he's a star. You've got a
natural charisma.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
My friend of God. Get rid of this fuck the manager.

Speaker 4 (23:10):
Isn't that like where managers come from, is they like
fail and then they're like, well, I didn't hang out
with these people.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Let's get Fozzy an internship at w m E. Let's
just figure something in the mail room.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, work your way up.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
He could be Turtle Fazzy. I bet if you asked
Fozzy which entourage character he was, he'd be like.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
Oh, I'm kind of evinced type.

Speaker 4 (23:37):
Fucking not dude, are you?

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, Fozzy and and and I don't know, I think
especially if I don't care. If you like Fozzy, if
Fozzy is your favorite, let's talk, because what does it mean.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
Fozzy can't be anyone's favorite.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Point No, no.

Speaker 5 (23:55):
I remember, because Fozzy to me was like bummy. I
didn't like his energy. I didn't like his fucking tie
or like scarf thing there was just didn't appeal to me.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Like I was Kermit Gang from the beginning.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yes, absolutely, Kermit has there there's something about him.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
There's just something about that.

Speaker 4 (24:15):
We do ask on every episode, like if they actually
existed in reality in our world, would this icon have
been on the Epstein flight logs? And as we've already covered,
Miss Peggy not on the flight logs. But take another
look for Fozzy Yes, Sam, like there's it's only a

(24:35):
matter of time, like a failed comedian, like.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
He would be on fucking kill Tony.

Speaker 4 (24:43):
Who refuses to be in the same room as Miss Piggy,
as the woman in the group.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Fozzy would do a private event at mar A Lago.
He will, Yeah, he would have no issue about it.
And then he would say business is business.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
He's exactly.

Speaker 5 (24:57):
He's like, welcome to the Foston, Texas comedy scene, is
what you'd be telling people.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
Yeah, yeah, he's lawless. He's like like all bad.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Comedians, he's gonna have to he's gonna, you know, the
only way for him to be successful is by going
full fascist.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
Oh yeah, yeah, well and even then they're like this
guy fucking stinks.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, it's big game season. We're taking down.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
Fozzy Fozzy Bear put his head on my wall. So
to your point about how seriously sometimes performers take their
roles frank Oza says that like Piggy is his. He

(25:42):
thinks Piggy was so successful because she's like got the
most depth and the most going on. And he wrote
a four page Stanislavskian analysis of Miss Piggy's life that
is like so dark.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Oh wait, does she have like a Charles entered him
and Cheese styles story?

Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, she has kind of a fucked up backstory, all right,
frank Oz. Although Miss Piggy is essentially humorous to me,
she's had a sad, difficult, painful life. This is not
for the audience to know, but the puppeteers should know
the background of any good character in order to be
able to improvise. I thought we would get like an
extensive martial arts background, but it's actually like depressing dust bullshit.

(26:25):
According to Oz, Piggy grew up in a small town.
Her father died when she was young. Her mother wasn't
that nice to her. She had to enter beauty contests
to survive. She has a lot of aggressiveness, but she
needs a lot to survive, as many single women do.
She has a lot of vulnerability which she has to
hide because of her need to be a superstar. He

(26:45):
also said the miss Piggy's father chased after other sows
and her mother had so many piglets she never found
time to develop her mind. I'll die before I live
like that, Piggy screamed. She then left for the city
and got a job wearing a sandwich board for and
this is where it gets like really fucked up for

(27:06):
a barbecue stand, and entered a beauty contest under the
name Laverne. Her big break was a bacon commercial, which
led her to a job as mascot for a local
TV sports cast called pig Skin Parade. And then she
got on The Muppet Show. Just like so much cannibalism
packed into the last like two paragraphs.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
This isn't for the public to know. This is the
performer on the flesh of her own mom.

Speaker 5 (27:34):
Was so busy breeding that she didn't have time to
develop her mind, her mind. Oh, oh my god, I
thought I was gonna end like fucking grapes of wrath.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
It's like and she had a breastfeed a dying man.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
That really took a turn.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
That told me a lot about frank oz I.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Where he was at that time, where.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
He was at that is It's so brutal. I do
like that. I I rewatched a little bit of it
this morning, like a really good video essay about miss
Piggy by be kind Rewind on YouTube.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love her channel.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
I like rewatched the first couple of minutes and I
was like, I gotta save it for the pod. I
was just hyped on the pig today. But like, yeah,
like how that story is, like that's way darker than
I was aware of. But it does feel like mapped
on like an old school like I'm just a little
girl from a little town and I had a hard
time and here at you know, it was like a
Marilyn Monroe kind of like sure I took some pictures

(28:38):
when I was a young Sure pig I wasn't proud of.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
So what Yeah, And I mean maybe that's what the
like cannibalism is, you know, or the like having to
sell yourself out. Like I think there's probably like some
metaphors in there that are just like incredibly dark.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
I love the I don't I don't have an issue
with that. Her mom catching astray like that, that was
really hard.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
My mom's a dumb bitch.

Speaker 5 (29:03):
That was really fucking to figure anything out anyway. So
Fazzi's actually what if his back is like, So Fozzy's
like actually a sick comedian dude, Like everybody loves him.
He's so fucking funny. When he enters a space, he
lights up.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
The wishes she could get with Fozzy, But unfortunately on
both of them, the.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Comedic voice of a generation isn't always recognized right away.
Sometimes it takes some time.

Speaker 5 (29:30):
My hope is that posthumously Fuzzy will be recognized for
his uh, his contributions.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
But he's really the Venco.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
I don't really Ozz.

Speaker 5 (29:38):
His parents are like puppeteers, like kind of like renegade
puppeteers too.

Speaker 4 (29:42):
Yeah, oh, puppet nepo.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
That's fun.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
That's fun.

Speaker 5 (29:46):
They like escaped like like Holland or something in World
War two, and like his parents had puppets that mocked
eight off. Hitler was just reading like some of his
They were like about that ship puppeteers.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
Yeah, yeah, shit, Okay, the puppet is mightier than the sword,
as they said, you know, the best way to criticize
to make a fool of people in power. One cool
detail that I think I actually got from the be
kind Rewind episode was that the reason she always wears
pink and purple and like aqua and like those colors

(30:21):
is because based on this backstory as psychological aversion to
the earth tones that she lived with on the farm. Wow,
that's like the sort of thing I was looking for,
you know. It's just like and here's like a fun
design detail that like we explain with and it's like
she was in a commercial for bad right wearing a

(30:42):
sandwich board.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Frankaus is like the coolest, one of the coolest people
to ever do anything. I was like the fact that
he co created Miss Piggy and then like directed Little
Shop of Horrors and like bow Finger.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
Like it's just nuts. Wives that movie.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
Okay, maybe not that one, that one, there's a couple
wee can skip a few.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
But but like Little Shop a Horror.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
Come on, that's great, that's good stuff.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
It's amazing.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
Oh yeah, and Yoda.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
I guess the fact that Yoda's number three on the
list is impressible.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:19):
Behind this Piggy and Fozzy, I think that, like I
want to get to this later, but the fact that
they are one of the few fictional characters that can
like show up to Prince Charles's coronation and it like
makes sense, which kind of makes sense, but like I
feel like the Henson Company like treated them as if

(31:42):
they were real, which is maybe why they're like the
only fictional characters will accept as real.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
Almost.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
I was thinking this this morning, so like there's a
new Miss Piggy movie coming out and at some point,
which is like super excited about that I didn't know
about before today.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
I was so excited. I was talking my colaskl Yes
and produced by Ammastone on the Stone and Jays.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
It just it just makes sense.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
But I was like, Okay, so we're assuming if we're
gonna say that movie's gonna be nominated for a.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
Lot of Oscars, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Does Miss Piggy get nominated for an Oscar? Miss Piggy
is still voiced by a man? Miss Piggy gets nominated
for the Oscar? Right, It doesn't work if Miss Piggy's
not nominated for the Oscar. But I mean the gender
lines and award categories are ridiculous anyways.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
But like this unique case, You're.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
Like, what do we do? It is funny.

Speaker 5 (32:37):
It's like a Supreme Court case that changes everything. It's
like and in this scenario, how do we move forward?

Speaker 4 (32:43):
We've actually there is precedent, speaking of the Supreme Court,
there is president for this because while so, yeah, she
really becomes the superstar with them up a movie in
nineteen seventy nine, you know, does the karate chop moment
of like realization. Frank Oz goes back and like writes
horrifying backstory, and suddenly she's this fully formed character. And
the Muppet Movie comes along and everyone is like, who

(33:07):
is that? Like they I mean, they knew her from
the show, but like she really Like I was watching
the Ciskel and Ebert review of The Muppet Movie and
Ciskel was like, I only liked the movie when she
was on screen, Like he was like so smitten with
Miss Piggy. He also like he's also like the part
where they like flip her upside down and you see
how bigger thighs are. It's like, oh my gosh, okay man,

(33:32):
oh cool. There was a fan led campaign to get
Miss Piggy an Academy Award nomination for Best Actress. Two
fans in Cincinnati launched CAMPO, which stood for the Committee
to Award Miss Piggy and Oscar. They received thirty five
thousand letters of support and delivered them to the Academy
of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. In response, the Academy

(33:56):
made this statement, which I just have to include for
like just a massive l. While the Academy does not
participate in the pork barrel campaigns, which are an unfortunate
part of the annual OSCAR campaign, we do wish you
appropriate success with your commendable support of such a weighty
candidate of Academy honors. Oh, guys, get fucked honestly fast.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
That's sasty.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
She I mean, miss Piggy has to have been gone
to the Oscars before.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
She has, so she at those Oscars presented or I
think introduced Rainbow Connection, which was nominated that year, and
like did a bit about how she couldn't fucking believe
that she wasn't nominated, which was like, really good it
was her.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Johnny Carson and insult her in the same I.

Speaker 4 (34:47):
Know that's saety backhanded then she So nineteen seventy nine,
Big Year was on the cover of People magazine, which
referred to her as the Muppet Movies New section. Scottis
the late seventies were like so weird. I don't know,
so she's she talks about how the Queen tried to

(35:07):
fix her up with Prince Charles better than Prince Andrew.
Thank god, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
That would be a real stand on that would that
would not bode well for the flight log side.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
Yeah, that would have been she wouldn't have been on there.

Speaker 4 (35:20):
Man.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
She would have chopped the ship out of him.

Speaker 4 (35:21):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, he wouldn't have made it. Maybe she could have.
She would have killed him. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:26):
The article also suggests Elliott Gould suggests that he fucked
Miss Piggy in it. He says, I turned down Miss Universe,
but I couldn't turn down Miss Piggy.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
That actually that pairing. I feel like Elliott Gould does
have like a little bit of current about him.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Like she's got a type, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:43):
For sure, a type. You got that frog in him,
He's got he got that frogs early eighties. She has
such a weird Yeah, good guy who fucks. But everybody,
I feel like everybody in the late seventies had like
guy with a ponytail from a documentary about like Orgi's Energy,

(36:04):
where they're just like we're just here to enjoy each
other's bodies and like yeah, it's just like I don't that.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Guy's always there and he's like, oh god, it's yeah,
it reminds me of that there.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
It's like a kind of an older video now.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
But Chris Fleming made a great song about Polly Couples
years and years ago, where it's like, it's never the
person you want to be Pollie, who's Polly, it's a
guy being like I have one hundred board games at
my house, like.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
No, no, But in this case we're talking about Elliott Gould,
which I would I'm on board with miss Piggy and
Elliott Gould.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
I love that rumor.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah that would make Kermit jealous too.

Speaker 4 (36:44):
Oh hell yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
We'll get to their relationship. But it's I don't know,
going back and rewatching some of the stuff. I was like,
I don't love how he treats her, like obviously, like
there's a big like re examination of her, like hitting him,
but also he's like kind of a dick sometimes to her, like.

Speaker 5 (37:06):
Trying to put a wedge between him so you can
move in on this, like I don't know, girl, like
I feel like she could do better.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Well, you're like like me for example, So I'm just saying.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
Like I don't know, I don't know. I got like
one hundred board games back in White Place.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
I haven't taken my hat off yet, but I'll let
the ponytail drop out.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
A little bit.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
That would be a ponytail.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Reveal, shaking it out. Yeah, this is who I am.

Speaker 5 (37:35):
Like when the nerdy character takes the pencil out of
their hair and like an eighties like, oh god, like
whoa long hair.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
But it's kind of like kind of perpetually wet ponytail, just.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
Like a greasy as ponytail.

Speaker 5 (37:47):
It doesn't really like flare out, it's just stuff together
a little bit like a pig's tail.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
People, Magsie.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
I also just like this detail from the article because
it was the late seventies and they said the gossipis
plan that Piggy might be pregnant or had a drinking problem,
or perhaps a coke addiction, because certainly she has the
equipment to be snorting something I do just like the
coke was a fun drug back then, Like they're just

(38:14):
like we're all doing it. Wouldn't it be cool to
snort choke with giant pig nostrils?

Speaker 7 (38:20):
Oh my?

Speaker 5 (38:23):
I think if your people pulling out that puppet like
at parties and being like, yo, dude, let's fucking do
a line with Miss Piggy.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
They're like, guys, I really shouldn't.

Speaker 5 (38:31):
It's really for performances to like, come on, dude, pull
her out of the case.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Let's do a couple of rails with Miss Piggy.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
She I feel like she she would do it as
in the seventies she did it as a party trick parties.

Speaker 5 (38:42):
Frank Oz was definitely doing It'd be like, oh, I.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Like and I don't And is that a fun energy
to bring? I think it sounds fun. But when it
actually happened, you're like, yeah, man, this is not good.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
We got to get home.

Speaker 5 (38:59):
And it's after as the high is wearing off, You're like, damn,
what the fuck am I doing?

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Man, you can't do.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
A pigs do Folks, I'm looking at the Muppet wiki is.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Unbelievably thorough.

Speaker 4 (39:11):
I just like, yeah, it's got its own it's like
Woki Wikipedia, like it's its whole universe over there.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Because I was curious, I'm sure we'll talk about it,
like how like Miss like the Academy Award, think like
the way that people talk about Miss Piggy's body is
so like charged and uh, but like she never talks
about herself that way, which I love about her. She's
like so confident and amazing.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
But there's a whole page on muppet Wiki this is
Miss Piggy's weight, and it's just a list of hundreds
of references. I was like this, who did this?

Speaker 4 (39:44):
H did this?

Speaker 1 (39:45):
And and can I I don't know for certain Wikipedia pages.
You're like this is against God.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
But but I.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Do appreciate that the all yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
She was introduced to a whole new generation with Muppet Babies.
Did you guys watch Muppet Babies?

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Was that before your time?

Speaker 4 (40:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (40:04):
I did babies, missus the miss Piggy. Muppet Baby is
like a little too sexy for me. Yeah, what's going
on there? Did you guys like Muppet Babies? I didn't.
I didn't watch it. Grow it now.

Speaker 5 (40:18):
I was like, I mean, I was so. It was
one of the first cartoons I remember watching Watch Baby.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
I remember it.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, And then there was.

Speaker 5 (40:26):
The cartoon I remember there was like a kind of
there's like a reference to Star Wars and like the
opening that I really liked that.

Speaker 4 (40:32):
I was like obsessed with other than that. Yeah, it
was the opening is the thing is the iconic thing.
And then Nanny's legs, like they had a overseer who
you only saw her like stockings.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, oh yeah, like Charlie Brown.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
Style, right, yeah, yeah, you just saw her like calves
and it was like very mysterious.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
I love that they did that on Cow and Chicken too.
That was like when I really loved Yeah, when it's
just the legs.

Speaker 4 (40:56):
That was a Marvel joint. By the way, Marvel Common
Animation Department technically made the Muppet Babies, so that's the
first because it was like the.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Cheap o animation style of of Yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
Probably they were probably like already making you know, a
Spider Man comic and we're like, what about what about this?

Speaker 1 (41:15):
We made the Muppet Sexy Babies.

Speaker 4 (41:18):
There's a lot of weird continuity stuff in there, like
there's a reveal that Statler and Waldorf are the muppets uncles,
but like, I don't I don't think we need to
like get too into continuity because I don't, like I
think the premise is that like the Muppets are all actors,
Like this is just a SNL style like thing where
it's like they're just playing different versions of themselves and

(41:41):
you like never know what's real, so you don't have
to like worry too much that Statler and Waldorf for
actually just the worst uncles of all time? Right worried?

Speaker 5 (41:51):
Did you worry that Scott Gardner cartoon Tiny Buppets?

Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yes? Oh yeah, it's so good.

Speaker 5 (41:58):
It was like the Brazilian Mummy Babies when it was
called like Cormet and Gonzor.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
Was just called I think it's miss woman or something.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Shit it Miss Piggy is probably the best case scenario
of like the missus Lady character right like there, it.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
Really isn't right.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
I can't think of them where because it's like they
try to emulate it a bajillion times or like I
don't know, I always go back to chuck e cheeselare
as I want to do and they have a missus Lady,
like you always have to have one girl, not even
because you care, but so you can make pencil boxes
for girls, right right, But miss Piggy, like they just

(42:43):
there was something in that coke that was special.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:48):
Uh, Brian, I'm gonna have to ask you to stop
putting pictures of a fazzy var next to Burt Kreischer
in the.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Chat.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
It's too distracting. They do both wear brown hats and
no shirt.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Well, I don't sell Brian's hard work short. He's finding
exact poses that are identical. It's like, it's alarming.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
That's crazy.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
Bert Crasers just modeled his career off Fuzzy. That's wild.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
No fucking have a backstory, man, gotta have a backstory.

Speaker 4 (43:23):
So Miss Piggy is seen as an lgbt Q plus icon,
which is wild because it started from a place where
Frank and and We'll get to a quote from Marlon
Brando that I think will kind of put some of
this into context. But he once told reporters about how
Piggy takes over and when he talks about her, he

(43:44):
will become her, using her voice and even adopting her personality,
and then added, but let's get it straight that I'm straight.
It's like, okay, all right, man, cool, Okay.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
He keeps telling on himself.

Speaker 4 (43:59):
Really, I know other artists were like, I sculpted the
David out of appreciation for the human body. Just because
I sent three weeks on the dick doesn't mean I'm
not straight.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, look at his biceps though. Look at those things. Man, sick, right, sick.

Speaker 4 (44:15):
I'm sure a straight guy could do.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Got to be straight, understand, dude, dick like that.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
After he became a successful film director, he was still
associated with Miss Piggy. When he directed the two thousand
and one crime movie The Score, an annoyed Marlon Brando
would reportedly only refer to the director as miss Piggy.
Just like, Okay, that's brutal. I just like the seventies,
just any anyone who was like famous in the seventies

(44:42):
was just like broken by toxic masculinity.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
They're just like never recovered.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
That's yeah, that's a bummer. Yeah, man, I I don't
I don't know. Maybe there's something I don't know very
much about Marlon Brando, and it's kind of like none
of my business when I see Marlin.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
We're good here. It's not for me. That's not really
for me.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
I don't need to know about all of that, especially
if he's bullying Frank Gaws to the Frank Oz has to.

Speaker 8 (45:12):
Respond in a toxic way to the world, right exactly
two thousand and one, Brando, Dude, that's like, oh that's
a yeah, that's doctor Moreau, you're talking.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
That's tough.

Speaker 4 (45:30):
But Eric Johnson, who's been playing Piggy since Oz stepped
away from the part in two thousand, said in an
interview that Piggy is a drag act. It's where some
of the comedy comes from. He did not go on
to clarify I've slept with like twenty three women of
them have said, I'm like, good, it sucks. But he
cited Oz's early description of Piggy as a truck driver

(45:52):
in a woman's body, and then argued that the character
breaks down genderbearers, which I think is.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Right, all right, Eric, nice. Eric.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
People have also pointed out that Chapel Roone seems to
pull a lot from drag and also Miss Piggy, Like
there are a couple side by side pictures where it's like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
She might have literally Miss Piggy style.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Man, Yeah, it's perfect. Miss Piggy also has a wide
variety of wigs. Yeah, she's just she's maximal.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
She loves animal print, you know.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
But yeah, that that be kind rewind video it's called
Miss Piggy. Camp and the Death of the Movie Star
has a really good quote from a camp theorist talking
about Camp as this like pure surface level celebration of
like the kind of hoops we have to jump through
to live our lives. They say, to appreciate camp and
things or persons is to perceive the notion of life

(46:49):
as theater being versus role playing reality and appearance, which
I think is like kind of a perfect frame to
think of Miss Piggy and kind of the Muppets through. Yeah, yeah,
it's a good video. Miss Piggy as a feminist icon.

(47:15):
That's just you know, a lot of people talking about
body positivity role model who subverts, Like the original punchline
of her origin is like a you know, lipstick on
a pig like that sort of thing. But she just
like I didn't even I hadn't ever even thought about
that being the original joke until somebody like reading about

(47:35):
the origin is like, oh yeah, I get it. But
it's like no, she's just like so glamorous that like
you don't even. She just like owns it. She's completely confident.
I feel like you don't like have that initial like
she's ugly but pretty type thing. It's just like she's
her own character, that extensive backstory.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
I also like that, like I guess the Miss Piggy
era I most associate her with, and I like the
best is that her like kind of nineties Miss Piggy
where she's kind of like girl boss single a little
bit like she's a she's a career girl, and she's
also like a ruthless kind of quite evil career girl.

(48:18):
And I love that.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
Which one is that? What is that in the ruthless?

Speaker 2 (48:23):
I feel like, I mean most of them I'm thinking of.
I think it's maybe a Muppets take Manhattan where she's
really rallying for parts and she'll like lie to get parts.
She just like she's you know, she's a diva, she's
an Yeah, And I like that, Yeah, it would be
it would have been easy to keep the focus on
her like obsession with Kermit, which like it always does.

(48:44):
But I feel like her her passions of Kermit and uh,
you know, being famous are like in Lockstep, So it's
like almost weird that she had, Like they haven't like
adapted her to the modern era very frequently.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
I guess maybe this Coloskull and Miss Piggy.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
Yeah, written by col Skull who made o Mary for
people who aren't familiar but so so funny. Yeah, like
it could really like get into brilliant dark shut.

Speaker 5 (49:17):
Which what if it's a dust bowl? He's like, I look,
I went to the source and I just had to
adapt this.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Frank Gus in fact doubled down when I brought up
the Stanoslavskian brief.

Speaker 4 (49:32):
Jennifer Lawrence did say that the Miss Piggy movie is
fucked up and really dark, which wow, maybe it is
just a straight up adaptation, all right, But yeah, I
feel like this, like one of the things driving her
career throughout has been just the will they won't they
of Kermit the Frog. Like there was a more recent

(49:56):
I forget what it was, but I remember it hitting
the news cycle when they like broke up and everybody
was like, oh, like Piggy and Kermit broke up. That
was the second time they had tried that, and the
first time they did it was actually like called off
because like they like, to your point, they were going
to break up. She was going to be single throughout

(50:16):
the nineties, and it was there was like this whole
book planned, and then Jim Henson died like that week,
and so they just like quietly like pulled back on it.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
I said, She's been through enough to see her. We
can't put her through a breakup.

Speaker 5 (50:33):
Oh because then because he was Henson was doing Kermit's
voice up until he passed away.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
Basically, yeah, he had been so his last TV appearance
was on The Arsenio Hall Show in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 5 (50:46):
So funny that there was like seriously, yeah, we got
Kermit the Frog on tonight, godless.

Speaker 4 (50:53):
And he was like not feeling well at that and
then he was refusing to like take time off and
then so I didn't realize. I thought he like died
of cancer or something. He died of like basically strep
throat and just like not getting it taken care of.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
God.

Speaker 4 (51:13):
Yeah, it's like a really crazy like a bacterial infection
that just like got worse and worse. And he was
at that time talking to Disney about selling, you know,
the Muppets to Disney and Frank Oz this is frank
Oz's quote on it. The Disney deal is probably what
killed Jim. It made him sick.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Oh wow, Oh.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Yeah, good good for him for saying that. I guess
I mean because Disney is I went to my for
my last birthday. My boyfriend brought me to the Henton
studio like dirty Puppet night. Have you guys ever been No, Yeah, Yeah,
it's cool. It's like Brian Henson gives the audience a

(51:57):
tour of the studio beforehand, and then it's like puppet
improv basically, it's the it's the best way to see
improv if you absolutely have to is puppet improv you must.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
But it was.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
It was really cool. But I don't even know if
they're still at that studio or they won't be for
much longer because Disney has like sort of slowly dismantled.
I hope maybe the Miss Piggy movie will save it,
but it seemed like they were going to have to
leave the studio and you know, go to sort of
more standard corporate offices, which I have to imagine is
Disney's fault.

Speaker 5 (52:29):
Yeah, yeah, because it's like they were also like you
could like lease office space out of there, like I
remember in the last few years, like yeah, because the
place on LaBrea right like that.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but like everything Kermit yeah yeah yeah, there.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
Was like see a little Kermit statue out front.

Speaker 5 (52:45):
I remember going like back in the day, like meetings
with startups like that were like like a startup was
based back.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
There, like you Richard the Hinson Studios, and it was
that company excess more than seven.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
No, they shouldn't have.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
To do fally bummed out that. I was like, what
but you got like I'm looking at the original.

Speaker 5 (53:03):
Dark Crystal Puppets in here, and you guys are fucking
talking about some dumb streaming platform that's not gonna do fuck.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
They're like, yeah, the frog's broke.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
What k he do he do? Man? And make him
do whatever you want guys. Yeah, and you want.

Speaker 5 (53:18):
Watch this, I can ash on his head right now.
Won't do shit.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
But yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:26):
In nineteen ninety, they appeared on The Today Show announced
they were officially breaking up. This is part of a
publicity stunt called the Pig of the Nineties that where
she was going to like be an independent woman and.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Then she's gonna girl boss it up.

Speaker 4 (53:38):
Yeah, she was gonna grow boss it up. And then
that was in May, and just days later, Jim Henson
died of Yeah. It's a crazy sort like he literally
just worked himself to like he wouldn't He like woke
up at two am in the morning and was like
I can't breathe and was like coughing up blood and
he was like but I don't want to cancel work tomorrow,

(54:00):
so I don't know, for as a warning to anybody, like,
don't don't work that hard.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah alone.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
This is dark, but it would be funny if frank
Oz was like, yeah, I think it was the breakup that.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
I didn't believe in love. After that, he just really.

Speaker 5 (54:20):
Find this new new direction with Miss Piggy right that
we're thinking about.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, He's like, you could just really affected him.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
And he really wanted to say something, but he could.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
It was just like a plot, an idea that he
didn't like at work, so he like blames it. He's like, yeah,
I don't know, Yeah, yeah, I killed Jim.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
What do you guys think? Huh hit off? Maybe I'll
pitch that next time.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
I will watch basically like any like of the bajilion
documentaries that there are about Jim Henson, and anytime I
see even a shred of his like televised funeral services,
I started bawling. It's so sad.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
I was so upset.

Speaker 5 (55:02):
That was like one of the first celebrity deaths I
remember as a kid.

Speaker 4 (55:07):
Did you guys know that, like that's how he died?
That it was I thought you just cancer. Yeah, cancer,
because he wasn't that old, right, was he in his
like fifty something?

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Yeah, I thank god.

Speaker 5 (55:19):
Yeah, but yeah, I just remember I was so deaf
because I just felt like he was the Muppets truly,
even like as a kid, I knew they were fucking puppets,
but I still could connect that, like all things were
possible through his work and the other people he worked with.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
But yeah, which is like not that they wouldn't have
been anyways, but it like almost makes it necessary for
kids to have the Muppets at the funeral, so you
know that they're like still, oh my god, Oh it's
so sad.

Speaker 5 (55:48):
Yeah, man, they're laying flowers on this.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
It's too much, so much. I was like, no, I've
never been as set. Well that's not fair, but like
I've never been stunted at a funeral as I am
watching like low res clips right right right, funeral from
nineteen nineties. So sad.

Speaker 4 (56:08):
Yeah, So I do feel like that does like get
a kind of one of the things that I think
is truly unique about them, which is the way that
they exist both in reality and in like the fact
that they were at King Charles's coronation. I feel like
they're the only fictional characters who can like show up
to real events, Like they occupy a weird space between

(56:30):
worlds for everybody, Like you couldn't just have like like
Deadpool show up at the royal wedding.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
And we've got Deadpool here.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
You know, what is that the coronation.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
I mean a fascinator on.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
I feel like that they because like other characters I guess,
do show up places, but it always you can always
tell it's an ad And then when the Muppet Show, you're.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Like, oh, like, oh, the Muppets are there exactly? Yeah,
like damn, oh they were in town.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (57:01):
When uh so Edgar Edgar Bergen Candice Berger from Then
in Black died. Now when Edgar Bergen, Cannis Bergen's father,
who was a famous like puppeteer ventriloquist, died, his widow
and candisberg And asked Jim Henson and Kermit to like
speak at his funeral, and they said Jim Henson said, uh,

(57:24):
there seems to be something strange about having a puppet
in this situation, and Kermit said, I have never appeared
at a funeral before, and then Henson was like, but
the family asked if I would bring Kermit and Charlie
would have liked it. He said about like his Charlie
and Mortimer were his two characters, and like everybody just
like burst into tears because they realized like Charlie and

(57:46):
Mortimer were gone, like at that.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
Oh wow, But yeah, it's sad.

Speaker 4 (57:51):
Yeah, it's just kind of this weird like you know,
puppets have been like a thing, and like they they
hold the like the muppets hold this like load bearing
place in popular culture because they're like our main muppets
are our main puppets, you know, right, Like there's a
quote from Bonnie Erickson where she's saying they've been a
tradition across the world for thousands of years as a

(58:13):
form of storytelling, but until recently, they haven't been appreciated
in the United States. We owe allot of that to
Jim Henson's vision, and so like there's something like sort
of magical about puppets that like these being the main
pop culture puppets like allows them to just like occupy
this weird space where we're like Piggy and Kermit canna

(58:35):
like get together together at any given time.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
Right right, and now, Jamie, I bet you'd feel terrible
if you read that. I've read that Fozzy odd after
a bad open mic gig or something.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Wouldn't you just do it?

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Look, you know my dark Fozzy movie is Fozzi's in
aa uh and like, who's Fozzy's sponsor? I do feel
like Fozzy can't drink anymore?

Speaker 3 (59:04):
Yeah, I can't drink. I feel like almost might sponsors. Yes,
Almost Dad is almost.

Speaker 4 (59:11):
Dad like kind of has like old you know, musician
vibe a lot of ship.

Speaker 5 (59:18):
I was drinking hand doing heroin. They're like, oh fuck,
all right, man, all right, almost Dad.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Yeah, almost Dad has seen ship. You don't just raise
a kid like that, like Elmo. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Yeah. It also makes a lot of sense that you
see the dad. You're like, oh okay, yeah, yeah, in.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
The grand context Elmo. Actually it comes into sharp focus.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
I do wonder, like what the drug seems like with
the Muppets, you know, just generally.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Yeah, I mean like the band, the band has to
Oh yeah that is I love the band so much.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
Yeah, I don't think they're doing intravenous drugs, but a
lot of acid in the band i'd have to assume
r Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Keep it fun, they keep it fun.

Speaker 5 (01:00:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, stuff that just kind of makes them
more muppetty if.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
That's a.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Yeah, something makes you like taste colors?

Speaker 4 (01:00:12):
Nothing, Yeah, I will say just the last thing I
have about Miss Piggies. I feel like to encapsulate the
weird place that she occupies. I don't think any other
children's character could have simulated an orgasm.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
Did you have you? Guys?

Speaker 4 (01:00:29):
Do you remember that thing where she was like doing
a parody of when Harry met Sally with Billy Crystal?

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Oh no, wait, when did that happen?

Speaker 4 (01:00:39):
They it was the early nineties and she did it
as like a fake sneeze, but she really like it was.
It was a long time and it was on the
Disney Channel too, Yeah, and Muppets tonight. Yeah, so dressing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
What happened with you last night was as so she
canceled she had a bad cold.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
Are you sure she had a cold, Yes, I'm sure
she had a curl. I heard a sneeze twice.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Your Kniven taste amusing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Did you ever think she may have faked the sneeze
to get out of the date with you?

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Fake the snaze, no way ticket.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Most women, at one time or another have faked a sneeze,
take it out of a date?

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Really well, excuse aim moa, miss I'm jealous of babe.

Speaker 5 (01:01:34):
You don't think that I can tell the difference between
a real sneeze and a fake sneeze. No, so good
killing it with the performance.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Oh oh my god, that's about how people sneeze.

Speaker 6 (01:01:53):
Oh yo Channel, No god, this is your titus.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
I love the Disney Channel logo just hanging out down.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Wow, way that all have what cheese having less?

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
Peppa hey.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Ship.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
That was when you said it was a fake sneeze.
I'm like, okay, they'll play with it. I didn't expect
her to be daggering the table like that under.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Her feet, the little thing she.

Speaker 4 (01:02:55):
Was pumping the even a part where like Billy Crystal
starts like doing a weird what do you do?

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
That stopped that man gets so weird about Miss.

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
Piggy, I mean, are weird about Miss Piggy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
This ciscal thing. This ciscal thing really says it all.
Where he's like, oh, she's so amazing, she's and did
you see her legs? And you're like, oh, like there's
there's the line. I remember. I never watched it, but
I'm always like one small illness away from watching. Do

(01:03:30):
you remember Lady Gaga and the Muppets did like special together?
It was like maybe ten years ago, but Lady Gaga
and the Muppets did a big thing together. And I
never saw it, but I feel like she and Miss
Piggy must have really been vibing, because that's a brain
of Carpenter is going to be in a Muppet special.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
Wow and lo it was a holiday spectacular, is what
they did.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Yeah, oh yes, twenty thirteen with Oh God, twenty thirteen
with guest stars Joseph Gordon Levitt.

Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
Of course he's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
He's not fucking like that these days. I mean, Jameson
Siegel briefly had custody of the Muppets and then he
had to give them back, and that's that's for the best.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Probably, that's true. That's true.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
That was a wild time when we were just like,
let's see what Jason Siegel does with it. It's like, oh,
just have him and a new Muppet he made up
be on screen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Yeah, the new Muppet, Like, what the fuck was that that?
But the songs were great.

Speaker 4 (01:04:32):
The songs were really good. I thought that movie was
like pretty fun and the and the music was good.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
He just didn't need the new guy.

Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
No, what was his name, Walter? They didn't even give
him a cool name. I don't know Walter, I work
in it. What the Miss Piggy, Kermit, the Frog and Walter,
which I guess was kind of the point. But that
point that sucks, all right? Any anything else about Miss Piggy.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
You guys want to talk about before we get out
of here. No, I was just I think before the recording,
I was just.

Speaker 5 (01:05:05):
Saying, it's funny that how how much of a cultural
mainstay Miss Piggy is because we had like Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
Calling people piggy.

Speaker 5 (01:05:16):
There's like TikTok videos I'm seeing talking about Miss Piggy
not being in the Epstein files. And then there was
a story about the woman who allegedly hit a child
on a plane because the child called her Misspeaky.

Speaker 4 (01:05:31):
Couldn't have been the first time a child has called
her miss.

Speaker 5 (01:05:34):
Marland woman is facing charges after police in Florida said
she hit a child who made fun of her on
a flight from Orlando, holy that she slammed the child's
head into the window of the plane for corner Miss
to say a lot energy a legacy.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
You can look like anything a legacy you can look like, Yeah,
I'm just happy that, Like I mean, it's like the
fact that kids still know who she is even though
Muppets haven't really like put out a successful project in.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
Like fifteen years.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Yeah, for their whole lives is like crazy.

Speaker 5 (01:06:07):
You's got to be like, I mean, the same way,
like I show my kid that stuff because I'm like, yeah,
you're gonna love this bullshit. I love these freaky fucking muppets.
You're gonna love them too, Yeah, And they do, and
they fucking do. Like it's it's like it feels like
one of the few things of like I've tried to
show my son like other shit like I thought was
cool from my child, and he's like this shit like

(01:06:28):
you can just tell. I mean, he's like not even
three yet, but it's very clear when something captivates him
or not. And I showed him the Muppet Christmas Carol.
His attention was there the entire time. I could not
believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
And I'm a man of taste, A man of taste. Yeah,
that's the best Christmas movie. I think it is, like
truly my favorite Christmas.

Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
He loves Michael Kine. He loves Michael.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
Knee, Jamie, where can people find you? Follow you all
that good stuff?

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
You can find me on the back.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
To cast every week, Yeah, every Thursday from now till
the end of time. Mark my words. Caitlyn Toronto and
I are gonna cover movies from an intersexual feminist perspective
and uh then mostly I think Instagram Jamie Christ Superstar.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Haven't been posting as much. I'm starting to feel too healthy,
So maybe I'll start.

Speaker 5 (01:07:23):
You gotta get back in there, I gotta get call
you back, let it summon you back into the pit.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
Miles.

Speaker 4 (01:07:30):
Where can people find you?

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
Everywhere? Wow? Perfect? All right, all right, that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:36):
Sorry, that's stick around University.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Yeah, university.

Speaker 4 (01:07:43):
Yeah, I think it comes out on Christmas or Christmas Eve.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Nine?

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):
Have we been doing this for that many years?

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
Hasn't gotten any better? And and this year is not
going to be different? Wow, just keeps getting longer. You
Santa U x oh yeah, X is gonna be God.

Speaker 5 (01:08:04):
We're gonna do like a live performance like the Disney Theater,
the Disney Hall or something.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
I've started to apply for grants because we got it.
We gotta get this in the Dolby. We gotta get
in the Dolby, I think, or at least Gromans. We
gotta get Gromans.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's easy. That's easy.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
Let's figure it out.

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
We'll do the Mantlebond easy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
I'd even take the roof, come on, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Yeah, I definitely take the Montalban roof. It's beautiful up there. Anyway.
Stay tuned, Stay tuned.

Speaker 4 (01:08:32):
Stay tuned. Stick around for the No No No notebook
dump where I get to stuff that I didn't get
to in the episode. And bye bye bye. All right,
that was our episode. Always great to see Jamie loftus.
This is the No No No notebook dump where I

(01:08:54):
get to stuff that I didn't get to in the
main episode that I wanted to. On the subject to
Bonnie Air, miss Piggy's designer, this has nothing to do
with Miss Piggy, so I didn't bring it up in
our conversation, but a quick anecdote that I discovered during
research that my brain couldn't put down, so I wanted
to pass it along to your brain, like the supernatural

(01:09:15):
std from It follows. So Boddy Erickson, this accomplished designer.
She's created Miss Piggy and the Philly fanatic, and she
gets asked to design the mascot for the biggest sports
franchise in the world. I think the New York Yankees.
I think it's them or the Dallas Cowboys, but you
know they're near the top. And so she creates this

(01:09:37):
large pinstriped bird like creature with a mustache. The mustache
is designed to look like the most beloved Yankee on
the team at the time, maybe of the decade of
the seventies, Yankees catcher Thurman Munson. He got a big mustache.
Bird has a big mustache. Win win. So as his
debut as Dandy the Pinstripe Bird's debut is approaching, two

(01:10:01):
things happen. I'm gonna pull from the Wikipedia here Bonnie
Erickson's Wikipedia. On July tenth, nineteen seventy nine, the San
Diego Chicken, who was then working for the Seattle Mariners.
Apparently mascots can be like kind of free agents and
move between teams, which I didn't realize, But so the
San Diego Chicken put a hex on Yankees pitcher Ron

(01:10:22):
Gidry during a game at the Seattle Kingdom. Yankees outfielder
Lou Panella, who had gone to manage baseball teams responded
by chasing the mascot and throwing his glove at him.
In response, the Yankees owner George Steinbrenner said that mascots
have no place in baseball, which despite the imminent release

(01:10:44):
of Dandy, who's supposed to be their mascot. So Dandy
does in fact debut in late July nineteen seventy nine,
weeks after the incident in Seattle, and then Thurman Munson
dies in a plane crash on August second, like a
week after Dandy is introduced. Dandy's immediately put on hiatus.

(01:11:06):
They eventually let him come into the stadium, but he's
confined to the upper deck area like the cheap seats,
and it doesn't work out. Ericson and her partner Harrison
declined the Yankees' request to sign another lease. They feel
the mascot didn't receive the necessary support from management. So yeah,

(01:11:29):
you win some, you lose some. She goes on to
design plenty of other mascots, has a bunch of mascots
still roaming stadiums in the NBA. She describes her mascots
as all being gentle anarchists, which fucking rules but I
think that speaks to the power of puppets and mascots.
Back to Miss Piggy, a couple ideas I wanted to

(01:11:49):
get at but couldn't quite get right in our conversation.
One has to do with Miss Piggy's relationship with Kermit
the Frog, which obviously a very part of her mythos
and iconography. I didn't spend enough time talking about it
in the episode because it's kind of confusing, Like they're together,

(01:12:10):
they get married in either Muppets Take Manhattan or The
Great Muppet Caper I forget, but then like that gets
retconned out. They say the priest was like actually defrocked,
like sort of that, so that is no longer canon.
But they're just always back and forth. They say they're
life partners who live together. Kermit has said they've never

(01:12:31):
been together. It's the ultimate will they won't they, which
makes sense from a narrative perspective, But you know, beyond
the obvious narrative hook, I think there's another way that
it's important to her status as an icon, because so
my working theory of the icons we've covered so far
is that it helps to have some contradiction at the

(01:12:51):
core of like our perception of you, you know, like
so our brains can't just like put you down. That's
what that's what my brain wants to do. When I'm
introduced to a new famous person or a character, I
just want to put him down. There's too many famous
people and characters. I'm already holding all this shit. I
don't want to I don't want to have to know

(01:13:13):
another one. So if a character or like a person
is what you expect, if it's like a jock who
seems like a cocky dick, or like a nerd who
seems like he lacks confidence, I'm like, I know who
that is. I can just put them away in a
drawer and forget about them. But so all of these
characters so far, or you know, real people with Einstein

(01:13:34):
who become iconic, have something unexpected, like some contradiction. So
with Einstein, a super genius who looks sloppy as hell,
like can't remember to put his clothes on before he
walks out the door, and we pretend he was a
slow child because that's important to us. We want that contradiction.

(01:13:54):
He's not like a Benedict Cumberbatch character who's a genius
he's like an absent space see is that guy on
something type genius rcle nerd. But he's also extremely confident
and unflappable. And then with Miss Piggy, beyond the central
contradiction of like glamorous pig lipstick on a pig as

(01:14:16):
a businessman like to say, you know, that joke never
even really occurred to me. But the contradiction that I
think is important is that she's a motivated career woman
who can and will beat the shit out of you
to like get to the top. She's also primarily driven
by her romantic love of Kermit the Frog, Like she'll

(01:14:38):
cozy up to a producer to get a role, but
ultimately she just wants to marry this mild mannered, multi
talented absolute ten. But then she'll also just like bail
on him repeatedly in order to put her career first.
She's also sweet and sensitive, but a fucking straight up cannibal.

(01:14:58):
So that's one idea that a contradiction is helpful to
build an icon. And then another idea about why she's
so iconic is where we were when she was introduced,
with our relationship to puppetry and just sexual politics at
that point in history. I think Miss Piggy stands out
among muppets for some of the reasons we talked about.

(01:15:20):
She's a superstar in the narrative, but then she reads
as a superstar on screen to the point that she
made Gene Siskel come in his pants, which probably wasn't
that hard to do. But I do think like the
way that she was imbued with this kind of outsized
energy that just like leaps off the screen and gives

(01:15:41):
Gene Siskel a boner, is she really like gave Frank
Oz an outlet for what turned out to be a
very developed and interesting feminine energy that he wasn't really
allowed to express in any other way. I don't even
know if he knew that he was looking to express,
and people couldn't really get that anywhere else in like

(01:16:05):
super mainstream culture at the time, and obviously we wanted it.
Look at how people have reacted to the freeing of
drag culture and like the mainstreaming of drag culture. So
Miss Piggy comes along at a time of like toxic
masculinity in the late seventies, at a time when like
Frank Oz has to disclaim that he's straight when he's
talking about playing her, and she's just like bursting with

(01:16:29):
the divine feminine and like could express confidence and body
positivity and horniness, and she could get away with it
because she's a puppet, you know. And again, like puppetry
is this ancient alchemical art that wasn't being used so
ingeniously and with like such mainstream success anywhere else. I

(01:16:52):
quoted Bonnie Eeric cent Er Henson talking about I think
they've both talked about how humans have used puppets for
thousands of years in like religious rituals and healing and witchcraft.
Look at how lou Panella reacted to a chicken mascot
putting a curse on their picture. Like you could say
he was being an idiot, but he was also reacting

(01:17:13):
to this ancient, powerful human connection to this art form.
And then Henson comes along and reconnects these jaded, pop
culture drenched minds around the world with this ancient, deep
yearning to watch someone breathe life and fully formed characters
into inanimate objects. And also officially it's kid stuff. People

(01:17:34):
consuming mainstream culture don't have their guards up, so ideas
and energy comes through that they wouldn't usually let through.
This world of mainstream culture that was just getting used
to the idea of like strong women let alone drag.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
Acts allows through this new.

Speaker 4 (01:17:50):
Dimension of like confident divodom that people weren't ready for,
and it turns out we're deeply ready for at the
same time. All right, that's going to do it? Or
the Miss Piggy episode next week. An icon who I
don't think really fits with that conflict at the core
of the icon rule that I just made up. I
think he kind of takes your expectations of the type

(01:18:13):
of person he would be and takes it like thirty
steps further, just like maximalism all the way down. We're
talking Arnold Twartzenegger. So we have a great guest for
that one. So I will talk to you then, or
I'll talk to you in a few hours if you
listen to the regular episodes of The Daily Zechast.

Speaker 3 (01:18:34):
Bye bye,