Revolution: More Possible Than We Think 01.30.24

In episode 1615, Jack and Miles are joined by author of Be A Revolution: How Everyday People are Fighting Oppression and Changing the World - and How You Can, Too, Ijeoma Oluo, to discuss… How We Can All Play Apart In Dismantling Oppression and more!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three, twenty three,
episode two of der Daily's Gay Yay production of iHeartRadio.
This is a podcast where we take a deep dive
into America's share consciousness. And it is Tuesday, January thirtieth,
twenty twenty four. We're almost out of it. We're almost

(00:20):
out of January.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
We all want more day, one more day? And what
does that mean? It means National Plan for Vacation Day.
This feels like something. This feels like very much like
Blue Monday. I'm not sure this is a national day.
Rather than be like why don't y'll spend money on this,
they are trying to cheer us up.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, the pest National Day was like National fun at
Work Day.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, National Plan for Vacation Day, brought to you by
the US Travel Association. Nailed it. And then also National
Croissant Day if you're Roy Sant. Yeah, if you like
to Kroi Sant, it's your day. Buttery Flicky?

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Can I get a croissan Is?

Speaker 2 (00:57):
How I like to order it?

Speaker 1 (00:58):
At Starbucks? You know, class at what?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, it's gonna have these suv egg bite bites. Man.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah, yes, my name is Jack O'Brien ak you got
a frendom in me? You got a frindom in me?

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Oh, it's not your foreskin that talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
I am the one that lives inside your mouth, under
your tongue. Man, not way down south. Or you got
a frendom in me?

Speaker 2 (01:35):
That is courtesy a Scali on the Discord, in reference
to our conversation with Zara about Yeah, yeah, the little
string under the tongue that is called frenum that I
have been calling friendulum. But frigulum is a part of
the penis, so or but lingual flint. Frenulum also applies,

(01:55):
as many people came in to tell us medically too,
was also accurate. So oh okay, good, we'll call it
a book. Yeah, got it. Well, I'm thrilled to be
joined as always by my co host mister Miles Press
Miles Gray aka Mine Life a dragon Puppet. I must

(02:15):
bring Uchi and no Mind Dreams, No th me underrated
on t Ezy Easy. Shout out the Granberry, Shout out
Nicole Adrian on the Discord. Yes, the dreaming continues with
the lower levels of THC in my system. I had

(02:36):
another one that I kept having. My partner was sick
and kept vomiting on me. I hate to just start
this off like that. But then it was just a
misunderstanding in my dream. Somehow my medical panic turned into
like that was just water. It's okay, it's okay. It
was a it was a weird one. I don't know
what's happening in the SubCom.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Her majesty real vomit and it was like dream it was.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
It was like water got all over my I was like,
what what's going on here right now? And then it's like, oh,
it's fine, it's just water. Is just water. And I
was like, oh, okay, look, it's hard to it's hard
to re explain dreams after the fact because they just
sound like nonsense. They do. Yeah, it is Her Majesty sick.
That's what I couldn't that's what. Okay, that's good to hear. Yeah, yeah,

(03:18):
not at all.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Miles. We are thrilled to be joined in our third
seat by a writer, speaker, activist, best selling author who
works on issues of race and identity in America. Her
new book is Be a Revolution, How everyday people are
fighting oppression and changing the world, and how you can too.
Please Welcome to the show, The Brilliant, The talented Igioma.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
How you doing? Welcome?

Speaker 4 (03:48):
I am, I'm doing well. How are you?

Speaker 2 (03:50):
We're We're doing great, We're doing great. It's great to
have you. We've we've just finished your book. We're very
excited to talk about it and pick your brain and
ask you questions, but not make you do any of
the extra labor that sometimes you're asked to do in
other spaces. Obviously, we want this to be a full conversation.
But yeah, I also have to say, you are from Seattle,

(04:11):
and the first thing I always say to every person
from Seattle is dis ain't it great? Aren't the fries great?
And you came with it and said it was part
of your very substantial moment in your life on your wedding.
So I'm glad to hear that we have we have
that in common, just to start.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes it's all you need.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
M You don't mind because dicks aren't. Miles has very
specific taste in French fries that he likes them, the
texture medium, rare, you know, he likes. He likes Matt
Saggi mashed potato sticks. Is that match sticks?

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Now?

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Is that always your preferred type of French fry or
just Dicks. There's something about dis.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
Yeah, no, no, I like all different types of fries,
and there aren't fries like Dicks anywhere else. Like it's
there's a Dicks fry and then you can't get it
anywhere else. But it is a particular kind of soft,
very salty thing that's beautiful. But it actually tastes like
real potato, when a lot of French fries don't because
it is just real potato. You can watch them chopping

(05:12):
them up and tossing him in the fryar. But yeah,
it's a really specific thing. But no, I like French
fries other places, but when you want a Dick's French fry,
you can't go anywhere else.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
That's all there is.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, love it up there, Love it up there. Beautiful,
You've got it all and a great miste. Well, we
are going to dig into your book and just all
all the work your expertise.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
But first before we get to that, we do like
to get to know our guests a little bit better
and ask what is something from your search history that's
revealing about who you are or what you're up to.

Speaker 4 (05:50):
The Other day, I was trying to figure out what
happened to seal oh like a singer. Yeah, yeah, I was.
I don't know. I think like Heidi Kluon up in
my feed, and then I was thinking what happened to
cell And my partner was like, oh, did he die?
And I said, I don't think he died, And so
I spent a good amount of time. I don't know.

(06:11):
He just seems happy. He was recently at like his
sister I think, or his cousin had a film reallyas
and he came and brought kids. Yeah, he seems happy.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
So, yeah, that's for me A lot.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
Of times, it's random things popping up into my head
of you know, what happened to this person that, you
know that used to be a part of my life.
I was thinking about Jaman Hansu the other day too.
Maybe it's just like really beautiful black men you know
that popped up in like the nineties, and I'm like,
where did they go?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
What happened? Yeah, what happened to Jamal Hansu? What's he doing?
I mean, he's always popping up in movies all the time.
And then like sometimes in roles, I'm like, Jami, you
I felt like sometimes you look it's Hollywood, do you
do all kinds of roles. But yeah, I'm trying to
think of what the last thing I saw him in was.

Speaker 4 (06:59):
Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think he was. I saw
him in something just a few years ago, but it
was like a really bit part with some futuristic like
space thing I think I remember. Yeah, But like, I
feel like he got type cast so bad, you know.
I mean we're like the nineties and yeah, you know,
of like he was only going to do like this
trauma porn or he was so exotified because of his

(07:22):
looks and his accent, and I just think that they
really put him into a corner that made it a
hard dream to get out of. And you know, and
I think he has said the same, Like I think
I remember some quotes from interviews in the past being like, yeah,
he was absolutely type cast. But you know, my favorite
memory of him is always going to be the Janet
Jackson video because that's really where I just watched that

(07:43):
on repeat, you know, in my little like preteen hormonal
like explosion of like yeah, yeah, ooh, it is this
incredibly beautiful human being and just washed it over.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
And over again. Love will never do without you. Know,
we know that Jimon or jim On for what were
people called him jam In too. Yeah, and I know
another person I remember I went to school with someone
who called him Digimond.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
I heard that a couple of times, like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Digital Monsters, the cartoon.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Man, you know what. I think part of the reason that, like,
Seal's kind of hard to search online, Like I searched
Steal Urban Legend and they were like, Okay, is breaking
the seal a real thing when you're out drinking? And yeah,
I just feel like it's a very specific. But Seal
is sixty and thriving and touring. Last time Google checked

(08:40):
out with him.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
The last last tweet he had was He's playing Redondo
Beach Beach Life Festival this May through May third weekend
with Sting, Incubus Devo Fleet Foxes. This is a real
interesting lineup. I feel like he should get higher billing.
He's like on the third line.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
It feels right.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
Yeah, I just want to know what crowd is going,
like what how people are mixing, like like oh, we
got your Fleet Foxes, we got your Sting. Yeah, Like
I can see I can see whatever the ven diagram
is between Sting and Seal, being very annoying, like I
don't want to be in that.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, there's a lot of Yeah, there's a lot of
Obama third term if I could, and I feel like.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Then you add the fleet Foxes into that, ven diagram
becomes pretty Yeah, there are three separate circles.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Suddenly.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, oh no, what is something you think is overrated?

Speaker 4 (09:40):
Self care?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Self care is over.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
It as in like the way it's being defined in
mainstream culture or what what dimension of it?

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Or yeah, no, I mean I think a lot of it.
I mean I think that the one, you know, self
care being really pushed is this tool to kind of
help us recover from hyper capitalism and kind of putting
it on ourselves stead of looking at like systemic harm
and why we're so exhausted and you know why we
would need to recover in the first place. This idea
that it's something that could be sold to you, the

(10:10):
idea that we recover from systemic issues on an individual basis,
just yeah, all of it. The fact that you could
fail at caring for yourself, you know, and it could
be enough lift Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, yeah's your fault.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, not grinding hard enough on that self care ship.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Oh you you don't. You know, you don't have any
sick time, and you're exhausted and you're working fifty hour weeks.
Have you tried doing yoga on your list day? You know?

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Have you tried a heated weighted blanket exactly? Are you
sure that won't help you feel terrible about edgemonic forces
that are acting upon your life constantly? No, that's so
true because now the way you say that, it like
makes self care feel like the paper straws, like what
that is to the environment, where it's like I don't
look at that causes you idiot? Just yeah, fucking where

(11:00):
a blanket that's shaped like a robe, and drink some
tea and take a bath and just sort of let's
let's let those real things meld away while it's a distraction. Wow. Okay, yep, Jema,
thank you for that one. Yep, because it's true, like
I feel like even like it might like in therapy,
there is like an element of self care that is
more just about being kind to yourself, but then as

(11:23):
a way to sort of be like, this is how
we get around the stress, the real stresses of like
our really inequitable, unfair world, to be like just just
try self care rather than yeah, empowering ourselves and the
myriad of ways we can do, like for the many
examples you have in your book are probably a more
effective way to use that energy. For sure.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
I like to get into really negative self talk about
how badly I'm doing it self care, you know, like
you're fucking this up just in the spa, relaxing at
myself in the mirror.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Man, don't do that.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
Oh no, what is something you think is underrated?

Speaker 4 (12:03):
Community care? Absolutely? Like I think every time that we
are in times of strife and stress and you know
a spoiler alert, we're going to be increasingly in those
as time progresses. I don't think everyone kind of is like, oh, well,
when we're over this, over what over?

Speaker 1 (12:18):
In stage capitalism, twenty twenty three was just a bad year.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, that's all ready for the next off.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
We'll get back to normal soon. Yeah. It's the idea
of leaning into community for healing and being a part
of community healing, finding healing in community, being part of
healing community as a way of sustaining us. As an
acknowledgment of what has sustained us, I think is devalued highly.
I mean, not only do we see this in how
people responded to the ongoing COVID pandemic right where you

(12:50):
actually people were mocked for prioritizing community care, and we
saw the way which you know, we treated our children
like we had our children home for a year and
we're they were being told they're falling behind, falling behind.
Who how can you fall fall behind when every student
is the whole world and that you know. Yeah, but
even now, when we think about how we're told to

(13:11):
address societal issues, you know, the idea is to like,
you know, like girl boss your way out of it,
or you know, all these things instead of saying, hey,
you know, why are you here? What has gotten your
your community through these times in the past, What is
kind of in our blood? And that's communal care and
we can get a lot out of it when it's

(13:33):
true communal care. You know, that's not like one subset
of the population sacrificing themselves for the whole, but instead
people seeing each other and their wholeness and caring for
each other and recognizing are shared. You know, survival is
one of the most longstanding and important tools we've had
for resilience and resistance and joy and growth. And everything

(13:54):
in our society and especially i'd say in an American
culture and you know the quote unquote Western culture, it's
treated like this really backwards, slow, you know, poverty inducing
way of living.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, oh, you can't bootstrap it on your own. Well
then what's that point? Yeah, it does look like that.
And then even when you look at things like food
not bombs and groups like that who are being like, well,
we are actually going to care for the people that
are in need of the community, and then you have
you know, local government being like this is illegal, like
and trying to completely you know, devalue that kind of

(14:34):
practice and make it illegal. Is I think a really
good example of how like to your point, it is
something that we've been doing naturally to care for each other,
but we were finding a way to sort of obscure
that and turn into like a negative because I think, yeah,
the momentum of something like that is more like mutual
aid or intersectional thinking, and that's probably doesn't benefit the

(14:58):
current situation. As you say, if ND stage, do we
feel like there's a concerted effort to erase like the
just community like that, I guess I'm just trying to
think of, like you know, movies and things like that
that I think are like shape how we view different
parts of history. And like just the fact that.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Like bowling used to be used to be a big
deal in America.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Like I just I remember hearing this NPR story where
they were like, yeah, like everybody used to like go bowling,
like the whole society was based Like all these cultures
are based around like people just like going bowling on
a weekend night and like seeing their entire town there.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Or I think church is the other example. Do we
think that there's like a concerted effort to like cut
those things out of the stories that we tell ourselves
or is that just because we are so like at
a cellular level taught to be individualistic that like they
just aren't in the stories that we tell from history.

Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah, I think it's a conservative effort. I mean we
look at like if you think of the movies and
heroes of the movies, it's always this this one individual
when alone, or we look at suggests I'm a you know,
the idea of a self made millionaire or billionaire, which
is ridiculous, right, It pulls us, you know, away from collectivism.
Collectivism has always been you know collective consciousness collective care

(16:24):
has always been the enemy of systemic oppression because that's
where we can lean into our real power and where
we don't need people to speak for us and make
decisions for us. And so yeah, it is erased all
of the time, like the amount of ways in which
people will, you know, try to be like no one
helped me, you know, even though I did this all

(16:44):
my own, Like, yeah, I didn't. And also that's really sad, but.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
That's always so sad for you.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
But I guess, yeah, and I think that's where like
our American ego gets involved, Like and that's why I'm
so unique, you see, because I had no, oh advantages,
and I'm selectively remembering that my father gave me a
three hundred thousand dollars loan, okay, but then I did
it all by myself after that, And it's sort of
part of that way to just differentiate ourselves in this
very like individualistic way for sure. Yeah, yeah, and I

(17:14):
think like it is probably it is. I feel like intentional, right,
because even as we've talked about on the show and
even examples in your book, Joma, like we're we're trying
to take certain details even out of our educational narratives
that we're giving children, like whether that's like the kinds
of things Ron DeSantis is trying to do in Florida
and obscuring like you know, we have people being like
slavery was actually like a great work study program, or

(17:36):
like trying to reduce like like have those kinds of
takes in history books or the other example I've heard
from one of the people in your labor chapter about
how there's no real discussion about like the labor movements
and why those are important. They're just like, yeah, there's
a Department of Labor next chapter the USDA, And you're like,
what you know, because if we're not taught that as kids,

(17:57):
and if those aren't the lessons, then yeah, we have
we don't have a great frame of reference to lean
on when like those kinds of moments arise where we
need to have that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, all right, let's uh, let's take a quick break
and we'll dive into the book and just all the
amazing work that you do.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
We'll be right back.

Speaker 5 (18:15):
Ye, and we're back, and Geoma, your book is in
part about like you know, everyday people, you know as

(18:35):
the as the subhet says like how every day people
can fight oppression like you don't have to be born
into it.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
It's very hopeful, as we've been talking about, because I
think a lot of people feel despair and not, you know,
weighted down by all all these systems. But I just
want to start with your story because I heard you
talk about you were working and marketing before you kind
of came to the work that you do today. So

(19:01):
I'd just be curious to hear kind of about that
transition from the world of marketing to getting into doing
the really important work you do.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
Know, yeah, I would say, you know, for me, I
think and for many people actually in the book, a
lot of it is necessity, right, we come to this,
especially if you are a you know, population primarily targeted
by systemic oppression. You know, I was working and doing
what I had to do to raise my family, and
you know, in Seattle that means you're in tech. So

(19:32):
I was in marketing for a tech agency and then
for the auto industry doing digital marketing and advertising, and
I was in an incredibly toxic environment for a long time.
I was the only black person, the only woman in
my entire department, and you know, living in an environment
that likes to pretend that because the majority of its
voters voted a particular way, that it had no work

(19:55):
to do on race or racism. And I was still
a black woman at Freytas and coming to this work
really for me what was sparked when Trayvon Martin was murdered,
and that was when I just had to have a
space to express how I was feeling my fear, my outrage,

(20:15):
my heartbreak and talk about you know what this meant
for me and people I loved in New and Seattle,
because I was in a space where I was surrounded
by people who were saying, oh, it's so sad. You know,
good thing, you don't have to worry about that here.
You know, good thing you don't live in Florida, and
not recognizing the amount of fear I had every day,

(20:36):
you know, sending my kids out in the world, watching
my brother when my brother was on tour at the
time as well, and he is, you know, six foot
four black man, and you know, feeling, oh, my gosh,
y'all the biggest spider. Did you see that?

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Just yeah, that was wild. It actually looked like a
glowing like.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
It's like coming back up now what I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Oh we're going.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
Hey, what it's doing? Provided it gets back up.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
There, it's eating the other insects.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
And it also made me realize how people like think
they see ghosts, because I thought I saw a ghost,
like a spirit, just like down for a second.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
Well, anyways, back to the system. Yeah, I just I
needed to express it. I felt like I was kind
of going crazy, and I don't see that lately. It
felt like I was in an alternate reality where I
was feeling all of this anguish and heartbreak. And I
would go to work with people who said they really
cared about these issues, and they'd be like, oh, look

(21:41):
at the shoes.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
I thought, how's your day?

Speaker 4 (21:43):
You know, I just it wasn't impacting them, and they
didn't want to talk about it. And so I started writing,
really just trying to get coworkers, friends, community members to
discuss this and look at this on a more local level.
Writing had been a great love of mine. You know,
as a child, I had wanted to be a writer,
but you know, I was also a black woman caring

(22:05):
for a family, and the thought of going into a
creative field was just not feasible for me. At that time,
and so I just started writing and people started responding,
not the people I intended to, like not you know,
I've lost a lot of friends, but other people in
the area. And so first it was like other black
people in Seattle being like, oh my gosh, someone shared
that Facebook post or that blog post and no one

(22:28):
has described what it's like to live here in such
a way before for me. And then it was just
like random calls from like, you know, the New York
Times and like being like, hey, we saw that you
were you know, we saw this post you made. Can
we reprint it? And I'm like, what's happening? Because I
had no intention at the time to build a writing career, right.

(22:51):
And the funny thing about it is when you enter
a space where you can really speak freely and openly
as a black woman, after decades, you know, I was
in my thirties of always kind of trying to check
part of yourself at the door for your own safety
and protection, you can't really like shove that back in

(23:13):
a box, you know. Like, once I had a space
where I could just I was being super honest about
what I was seeing and feeling and being really outspoken.
Then going back and spending you know, ten hours a
day in this pretty exclusively white male space where you know,
that was incredibly hostile to my existence. I couldn't be

(23:33):
quiet about it anymore, and so making the leap to write.
You know, I was absolutely getting more requests to write things,
but really it was I'm either going to get fired
from this job or I'm going to leave this job
and see what I can do with this voice that
people seem to be responding to. And so I made
that leap with no savings, no real plan B. And

(23:57):
you know, luckily, I guess from a life of growing
up incredibly poor or the ability to withstand you know,
that changed for a while and build upon it. And
you know, eventually my lovely agent, Laurie Bramer, reached out
to me and asked if I wanted to write a book,
and I thought about it, and a couple of years
later I did, and you know, the rest is kind
of history.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Right, And I feel like, you know, like, with this book, right,
be a revolution. You know, revolution is this term that
I think is at the forefront of so many people's
minds because we're like in this liminal space where we're like,
what like the way we're doing shit is terrible. But
where do we go? Like, you know, a lot of
people are like, I know a lot of this stuff
is not serving us at all, and that there's I

(24:39):
don't need any more proof about this, But what do
I do now? And we always hear about like you know,
whether it's a cynical version like we need a revolution
here in this country or other people's like we need
to have a like internal like a societal revolution here.
Whatever it is about our values, it feels like I
feel like for a lot of people, feels like an
overwhelming topic with very rigid definitions, like if it isn't

(25:01):
a mass movement, then it isn't revolutionary. Or if it
isn't cataclysmic instant change, like instantly in one big moment,
then that's not revolution. How do you sort of define
it in sort of our own roles within that framework,
because I think you really do a great job of
helping connect people to this idea without sort of having
the whole thing of like do I you to put

(25:22):
on a three tip, three cornered hat and grab a
musket and get on my horse type of thing, or
is it about sort of what we're able to do
what we're putting out there. So how would you sort
of define that or help people understand like the sort
of this as a concept without getting into the overwhelming
parts of it.

Speaker 4 (25:38):
Yeah. Absolutely, I would say first that there is revolution
happening every day on large and small levels, and where
we are directly challenging and kind of breaking the chains
of systemic oppression, whether that's the way it's been pushed
upon us internally, how we deal with each other, our
systems large or small, well, where we are doing that work,

(26:01):
where you're doing revolutionary work, And there are so many
levels of this, so it doesn't you know, have to
reach a certain threshold to be revolutionary. Every aspect of
it is and so there's always work to do, and
it can seem like a lot, But the good news
is that you could literally decide right now to do
a piece of it, whether that's you know, looking at

(26:22):
your own personal indoctrination and how you see yourself and
how you have been asked to be a part of harm,
whether it's looking at what's being taught in your kids'
school and saying, hey, I'm going to have this conversation
and really open up, you know, try to open up
space and safety for these young people in these classrooms.
There is always something to be done, and it's important

(26:44):
to recognize that people are doing it and that the
story of that is often a race. The truth is
is the vast majority of our systems don't serve a
lot of people, especially our bipock populations and are queer
and trans and disabled by populations. It doesn't serve us,
and therefore we've had to create revolutionary systems that you know,

(27:09):
we are tweaking and experimenting with every day because we
don't have any alternative. And yet people don't talk about that,
and they really erase it so that you will think
there's nothing to be done instead of saying what is
being done? Because every day, like even you know, listening
to some of the stories that people I was talking
to and watching them revolutionize their own lives and the

(27:29):
people around them, and even if that's just two or
three people total, that's huge, especially if we consider all
of us kind of taking those steps, we can make
some really big change.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Do you think that people that are sort of beginning
to be interested in justice movements or justice work they
fear that term for like because of just sort of
how like sort of sort of nebulous. It is in
our minds, so like instantly when we hear revolution, like
we're thinking like literal historical revolutions that have occurred in countries,

(28:01):
rather than this idea of like being a node within
a system of change that is consistently sort of espousing
like these different values that would help bring about that.
Do you think that is like that that's sort of
an obstacle for people who are who are like, I
know stuff's bad, but like I don't know revolution am
I don't know if I'm like a revolutionary kind of person.

(28:22):
Do you think that sort of plays into sort of
like the apathy for lack of a better word for
some people.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Yeah, I think the fear right because we like to
paint these very extreme pictures of what change looks like,
and that's been done on purpose. Right, So when we
look at you know, systems, and they talk about systemic change,
a lot of times people will immediately turn towards this
really violent imagery because they want to they want to

(28:53):
make it seem like something that people can't join in on.
But I think it's also really important to recognize that
even in our histay where we see what is known
as violent revolution or very like active military type revolution.
What you also have for years and years of social
revolution that happened before and after, and where that doesn't happen,

(29:15):
we actually see a lot of harm. Right, So the
real work is about how we see ourselves, how we
relate to each other, how we structure our systems. Often
what makes news is first the violent response to that,
and then how people withstand that, and that can often
look like the quote unquote revolutions that we see in news. Right,

(29:36):
We're not seeing people immediately going I'm gonna even when
we think we do, I'm going to go and I'm
taking a gun and I'm overthrowing like that is not
actually what we're seeing. What we're usually seeing is years
of social and political revolution happening, a violent response, and
then people meeting that response, and that's that little snippet,

(29:59):
That little piece is what meets makes the news. But
then afterwards we don't see the continued work of healing
from that, of growing from that of redefining. But that
is done in large and small spaces every day, and
it's done in ways that are so quiet it doesn't
make headlines because people don't want us to know it

(30:20):
can be done that way. It doesn't mean that there
will never be violent responsible and we saw that even
in twenty twenty, right, we saw people taking guns to protests,
right to shoot peaceful protesters because this idea it could
that you know, it was a revolution. It was called
a revolution because people were revolutionizing how they thought about

(30:44):
systemic racism. And then people said, oh, let me get
my gun and stop it. Right, And the idea of
it being violent, even now, like in history books, is
likely going to come down and looking like black people
were in this violent uprising and not we were part
of this beautiful, moral, intellectual revolution that was met with

(31:04):
an incredibly violent response because anything that threatens systems is
considered a mortal threat to the systems, right, and they're
going to treat it violently regardless of what tactics we have.
And so I want people to look at that and recognize, like,
how much do I actually know what perspective everything I've
thought about as far as revolution, What perspective have I
been given? Who's writing these stories and what really happened?

(31:27):
And you know, think about what does it mean to
get people to change their minds? Because you can't do
that at a point, you know, what is it getting
people into the streets, What is getting people to say
we want a new system? That's the actual revolution?

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, we talk a lot on this show about the
sort of attempt to kill our imagination when it comes
to alternate systems to you know, capitalism, policing, human engaging.
You know, these are systems that have physical captured us
because they're the systems we live inside, but they've also

(32:04):
captured our imagination, like they're the systems that our movies
take place inside. I always go back to movies because
I think they have a profound impact on like how
people kind of view parts of the world that they
haven't experienced. And like there's like movies about cops a
lot for a lot of our history. And it's been
said that it's easier to imagine like a zombie apocalypse

(32:27):
than the end of capitalism. And like that's why this
book is so exciting, because it focuses on telling these
stories and creating these alternatives. So I'm just curious, like
how you came, how you approached that work, and then
if there are any specific stories of these like alternative

(32:49):
systems that you've seen people successfully implement that that you
think will are particularly helpful for you know, people's ability
to imagine a world outside of the systems of capitalism, policing,
and human caging.

Speaker 4 (33:06):
Yeah, I would say, you know, as first of my approach,
you know, there were some people I knew that I
wanted to talk to right away, people I had been
in community with, in movement work with. But really I
was looking at, what are the places where we're seeing
change happening or burgeoning, change that doesn't get talked about.
What are these stories that are really inspiring with people
who've been you know, on the ground doing this work

(33:26):
for a long time. And then you know, I started
asking as I was talking with people, like who's inspiring you,
who's you going? Who do you really want to see
in these pages? And it really brought me into these
spaces that even I hadn't known existed before, and you know,
work that people were doing that I didn't know existed.

(33:47):
And I really hope that when people go through this book,
but they'll see is that wherever your interests lie, wherever
your skills lie, there's space for you to make really
courtant change. And so a lot of the things that
I wasn't even sure were going to interest me, like
as someone who is you know, Okay, So I you know,
I love things and I'm highly critical of capitalism, right,

(34:09):
which I think is is a pretty universal idea. So
I wasn't exactly thinking like I'm going to have a
chapter on business and to people able to do you know,
because I feel like we have like those weird books
of like do business Better and it's like not you.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Know, entrepreneur way to systemic change?

Speaker 5 (34:27):
Right right?

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Oh? Okay?

Speaker 4 (34:29):
And so you know when I was talking with like
Richie Masida in the book and actually reaching out to
talk with him about his Success Stories project, which is,
you know, an amazing organization that seeks to help men
caught up in the prison industrial complex heal from violent
white supremacist patriarchy. And he was like, actually, I want

(34:50):
to talk about my abolitionist business. And I was like what,
you know that I had not set out for that,
but hearing him talk about this reimagining and taking these
principles that he had dedicated so much of his life
to and saying I'm going to apply it everywhere I'm
and yeah, I want to have this coving company and
I want to apply it here, and I want to
see if I can do something completely different with this

(35:13):
was really beautiful, and it totally you know, caught me
off guard because I really wasn't planning on including that
in there, and you know, looking at that and saying, oh,
even in these everyday things, we can actually challenge a
lot of assumptions and try something really creative and see
what we can, you know, see how we can further
live these values. They don't just exist in one space.

(35:33):
We don't say I'm a movement worker right now, and
so I care about liberation when I'm marching, But then
you know, my relationship with my family, my children, and
my coworkers is going to be highly patriarchal and hierarchical.
You know, that's not how this goes. And you can
actually be quite revolutionary by just simply saying all of these,
you know, statuses I'm sharing. What if I live that,
I what if I said every everywhere that I'm you know,

(35:57):
interacting with people or systems, I'm trying to bring those
values into that well.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
I mean, I think that's really important too, because we're
in such a social media centric age where there is
a lot of like this you know, digital activism for
lack of a better word, where it's like, sure, I
will retweet or share something like and I see this
so often too, Like I mean, in twenty twenty, it
was amazing how many people were like digitally on their shit.

(36:24):
You know, I was like, oh, okay, okay, only for
it to fizzle out pretty quickly thereafter. Unless I think,
especially for people who weren't part of these communities that
were at the highest risk. What is the challenge that
we should be laying out to people who are like Okay,
clearly you feel like this is something worth saying. I
will share my handle on social media to rebroadcast this message,

(36:48):
but I just can't quite get there. Is it, Like
what sort of examination do we need to do, like internally,
whether that's like I mean, like what your whole chapter
on ableism had me really like inspecting my own beliefs
and how limiting my own beliefs were around that and
how much you know that is sharian Stare sort of
metaphor was about like how ableism is just intertwined with everything,

(37:11):
especially because we're in this capitalist mindset about productivity and
what productive bodies do or do not do. So like,
what are the what are the kinds of steps I
think that everyone can do, because I think many people
are like, I know what has to be done. I
can live. For me as a black and Asian person,
I'm very able to. It's very easy for me to
speak about anti Asian racism or anti black racism things

(37:32):
like that, but ableism a little bit different. My life
isn't intersecting with those kinds of things as much. I
try to talk about other issues around transphobia and homophobia
as much because I do know people in like in
those communities. But what sort of like what are what
are the kind of nudges we need to be giving
ourselves to be Like, Okay, our head's in the right place,
but now let's let's take it beyond the retweet, Like

(37:55):
how do we do that without freaking somebody out? Because
again I think people think that can be very or
it's just not their place. Maybe to take it further
than that, Yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Would say my number one advice is to start small.
So I usually advise people like, start where your interest lies,
whether that's a hobby or anything like that. You know
you can start with and as someone who who has written,
you know, very popular books on race and racism. I
get emails from people about their issues. So trust me,

(38:26):
there is no segment. There is no hobby you have
but doesn't have a systemic racist issue or a systemic
compression issue. And like, you know, a couple years ago,
I remember there was a big kerfluffle in the knitting
community about racism as far as whose patterns get published
and things like that. Right, I was getting it, I
know because I get emails from people say, you know,
I love advice when people are tagging me and saying
you should read this book. So the truth is is

(38:48):
you can pick that one space and say, what's happening
in this space? How are people moving through this space
or have access to this space? Who's invited to this space?
How is it different from my experience? And where does
my privilege And so if you just pick that one
little space, if you love knitting and you're saying who
you know whose patterns get published or who gets to
go to writing conferences and get seen, or who's appropriating

(39:09):
culture and these sorts of things, I'm going to focus
on this and I'm going to go, you know, look
for the voices of people who have been talking about
this because people do not suffer in silence. And I'm
just going to start here. I'm going to learn as
much as I can about this one little space, and
I'm gonna learn to leverage my power in that space,
because chances are if you're in that space, you have

(39:29):
some level of power or privilege or knowledge that makes
you better suited to start there. Once you have that
idea and you're listening to people who are saying, yeah,
you know what, like I went to this conference in
nice tree, like crap, and I would really love it
if organizers would do this. Okay, you have an action now, right,
you have a thing you can join in on, you
can ask about. But once your knowledge deepens about that

(39:50):
and you start to see how it works, you'll be
surprised at how quickly you can apply that to other spaces.
And you can hear other people talking about what problems
they're having, and you'll have a reference and you can
be like, oh, you know what, that is actually so
similar to how it's set up in the knitting space.
You know, let me me support you with any way

(40:11):
I can, and I get it now, and I'm not
starting from scratch, right, And it's a great way to start.
And you know, even in the book, you have people
like Ian Head in the book, Who's you know, foundation
for his incredibly meaningful legal aid work helping you know,
incarcerated people advocate for themselves and helping to you know,
get the important verdicts on stopping frisk policing started with

(40:34):
his love of hip hop. You know, it's started because
he loved to wrap right and delving into that and saying,
what is happening? What is the reality for these musicians
that I love who are trying to, you know, really
tell me what's going on and what can I do here?
And branching from there, you know, ended up with a
lifelong passion and mission that he has found incredibly rewarding
and has had real measurable impacts on community. So I

(40:57):
think it's so important for people to recognize that, you know,
wherever people exist in systems like these issues happen, and
therefore it matters that we address it. So it doesn't
always have to be I'm going to look at who's
the president and I'm going to focus here, or I'm
only going to focus on police brutality. It's I can
focus in my one space because every day people are

(41:18):
being impacted, and it will give me the context to
also be able to stand in solidarity on these other
larger issues.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
Let's take a quick break, we'll come back. We'll keep talking,
and we're back. And you know, we've been covering this

(41:47):
show has been we've been doing this daily show for
a long time, and you know, covering the incredibly consistent
energy pushing back against ideas like defund the police and
abolitionism coming from places like the New York Times, you know,
places that coming into adulthood, I had been told where

(42:09):
like liberal or progressive, And it feels like there's a
lot of parts of the mainstream media that have kind
of pushed past the idea of defunding the police, like
it's settled law among people that like defund the police
was bad politics, Like everybody heard James Carvill say it,
and they're like, well, I guess guess that's true.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
If that old swamp creature says it, that old snake
say it, then I don't like that. Yeah, that's backwards idea.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
But how I'd just be curious to hear from you
on like, how are you seeing progress made in the
fight for abolishing the current system of like policing and
human caging. Maybe just talking about like what is abolitionism
currently as you see it, and what are the areas
that abolitionists are currently working on.

Speaker 4 (43:02):
I mean, yeah, I would say it's incredibly broad abolitionism.
You know, people have multiple understanding of understandings of it,
but the one I worked from is abolitionism is the
fight to end enslavement, incarceration, and the exploitation of people
that is based in the model of chattel slavery. And
so what we are in is a continuation of that

(43:26):
of chattel slavery and that exploitation of people, in the
imprisonment and enslavement of people, and we see it in
the ways in which our systems have built. Now, that
is broad, because we actually see that in our mental
health system, we see this in our quote unquote child
welfare system, and we see it in our incarceration systems,
in our school systems. And so there are a lot

(43:48):
of different places to fight this and say, you know,
people have the right to their own autonomy. We don't
have the right to say that only certain people deserve freedom,
deserve liberation, deserve a second chance, deserve to learn and
grow and change and be a part of community, and
that we will look at the problems we face as

(44:12):
a community and with the fundamental belief that as a
community we can solve it because these problems don't exist
in a vacuum. If these problems are rooted in society
and community, in our systems, then we can solve them.
And I think that that is fundamental to this work.
And so you know a lot of people will try

(44:34):
to fight that and say, you know, with fear mongering, well,
if there's no cops tomorrow, what are you going to do?
As if there isn't a process, isn't the system? And
often I would say, you know that fear mongering glazes
over how incredibly brutal the reality is, right, which is
that you know, we have a system that does nothing

(44:55):
to deter harm our crime, that is stealing away large
percentages of our population, that is leading to the deaths
of hundreds, if not thousands of people by police officers
every year, that is leading to the thefts of children
from black, brown and Indigenous homes, That is leading to
the forced treatment and incarceration of mentally ill people. And

(45:18):
we're not safer, We're no safer, right, and so this
idea that trying something new would be worse how much.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah than this.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah, it's a system that like insert you know, exports
brutality into the world that we live in, right.

Speaker 4 (45:39):
And reinforces societal inequities that create brutality, that create harm
and violence, and you know, and I think that's why
we're forced at all of these you know, stories and
cop shows of if it weren't for a cop, you know.
And I think one of the most important things that
was said to me by Jenia Kahn years back. You

(46:00):
were talking and they said, you know, cops can't prevent crime,
they can only respond after it's happened. And yet we
act as if that's the eposoite, like you can't you know,
unharm someone with a police officer, and if anything, they're
showing up and creating a whole new level of crime.
And so this idea that it would make us safer
just doesn't make any sense. And so I think it's

(46:23):
important to recognize, like that there's something so deeply hopeful
and beautiful and abolitionism in that fundamentally it believes in people,
like it believes that we can actually solve this that
no one is irredeemable, that we can look at societal
issues and address them and change the way that we
relate to each other, that we can heal each other,

(46:46):
and that yes, we can address safety at the same time.
And it doesn't mean it's perfect, but oh my goodness,
what we have right now is is causing more harm
than good. And so that means that there's so many
different ways in which we can do this work, and
you can pick different spots, and yeah, it can seem
like we'll never get there right that we're not going

(47:06):
to have a time where there aren't policing, But every
time that we can kind of remove the task given
to policing InCAR thural systems, every time that we can
dismantle pieces of it and strengthen alternatives, we're doing really
important abolitionists work. And we can do that and still
say this shouldn't exist. So I always say that, like,

(47:28):
it is abolitionists to say I don't want cops in schools.
It's abolitionists to say that, you know, people need to
be given alternatives to incarceration. It is abolitionists to say
that people shouldn't be given, you know, forced treatment for
mental health issues against their will. It is abolitionists to
do all of these. And I can say that work

(47:49):
for and saying I don't want any cops, you know,
I can say that right while also working towards these
things that are available to me right now.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
I mean, yeah, I think especially when it relates to policing, right,
and we, like you said, the status quo is violence
is dysfunction is increased harm. It's not solution based, it's
not about identifying root causes. Yet so many people are
so frightened to make the change that like the fear
instantly turns like passionate defenses of the status quot. So

(48:21):
then the next thing that you get offered, especially from
legislators politicians, is our reforms. Right, and we talk a
lot about reform is not we're just We're just you're
just putting different, a different code of paint on the
same problem. How do you sort of like balance obviously
the need for these kinds of like deeper changes or

(48:44):
these different like different kind of emphasis alongside like the reforms,
because a lot of the times you get these sort
of these debates now where people are like, well, don't
let the perfect be the enemy the good. They're saying
they're built and cops to use a slightly lighter baton
or something, and we're supposed to be like, oh, okay, yes, sure,
but like, how do we sort of in a world

(49:04):
where if people are so focused and able to say, like, no,
like a lot of our crime is because of desperation
or lack of support. That's what we need to be doing.
I don't want to hear about anything unless I mean
talk to me when we're getting rid of qualified immunity
or something like that. How do you how should people
sort of like look at this balance of understanding what glacial,
incremental sort of reform can do versus trying to like,

(49:28):
for lack of a better word, hope for something revolutionary,
something different, something that's sort of upending the status quo.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
That's a great question, and it is something that we
talk about in the book. It's so vital that we
understand the difference between like true liberation, liberatory work, and
harm reduction and recognize what's neither, because a lot of
what we say is police reform is neither harm reduction
or liberatory work, and we have to say, at least
give us some harm reduction, right, So it's really important

(49:58):
to listen to the people most impact by it, and
people who are actually you know, experts on this from
the perspective of communities harmed, right, and say no, this
doesn't work, and we know this doesn't work, and listen
to that and be really really clear, because people will
sell you anything and call it revolutionary, and then we

(50:20):
will they'll label, you know, harm reduction as like this
huge attack on the system and we're not even getting
to like the meat of it. Harm reduction matters, absolutely matters,
because the truth is is, if we have these long term,
big goals, we have to be alive to get there, right.
But that means we have to be honest about what

(50:40):
it is. And so you know, when first of all,
if it's offered to us by the system, throw it away.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
You got that idea, Oh okay.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
We don't want that, right, You got to listen. We
have to listen and listen to the communities who've been
building alternatives, right, because communities wouldn't we build alternatives. Some
of those are revolutionary, some of those are harm reduction, right,
And so we already kind of know what direction works
and what direction doesn't. And so when it comes to
issues that are as big as like policing and say
we would hate you know, we don't want this system here.

(51:21):
You know. Harm reduction, you know, would be things like one,
you know, getting police out of officers out of schools. Right,
the systems still exist, but we don't need the officers
in schools. Studies have shown time and time again that
you know, it leads to an increase in arrests of
black and brown and indigenous and disabled students with no
actual reduction in harm. And it's not in whether they're

(51:41):
you know, arrested, has no ties to violence in schools,
drugs and schools or anything like that. It's just do
you have black students? Do you have cops? Now? We
have more black students arrested, so we know it doesn't work, right,
So harm reduction would be you know, getting them out,
and that isn't you know, it's an abolitionist practice in
that it is, you know, getting them out, but it's

(52:01):
not getting rid of the system. Other ones would be
you know, before you start referring making calls kicking kids
out of school and getting them in these pipelines, you
know what who oversees that? Right? Who approves that? What
records do you have? Whatever things are you trying first?
Those are all things that are really important to look
at while staying while recognizing if the system still stays

(52:23):
in place, it's not getting rid of the system, and
so we can work towards that, push towards that don't
accept anything that re entrenches the system. And so retraining
always re entrenches the system. Retraining is never going to
be a harm reduction. It's just putting more money into
a system and asking you know, and we've shown that

(52:44):
they don't come out, you know, gentler kind or more
understanding of community. They come out with more police officers,
you know, and they come out with more levels of
excuses for why they're doing what they're doing. And so
just listening to community on that is really really vital.
But when it comes to every day and if you're
looking at smaller things we can do, you know, if
you live in an area that has cash bail programs,

(53:06):
getting rid of cash bail is one of the most
vital things you can do right now, right you know,
in Washington here we have like pay to stay where
people actually have to pay for their incarceration if they
work out a deal and they want to go in early,
so that they aren't away from their family for three
years and maybe six months, they have to pay for
every day that they're in there, and so, you know,
things like that are wild classes basist, and getting rid

(53:32):
of that doesn't get rid of the system. But it's
also a really really important step that we can take
right now to reduce the numbers of people caught up
in this popular in these systems, and how long they're
caught up in them, and that gives us what we need,
the strength we need in community to keep fighting.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Just how do you think about the pushback from the
mainstream media? Just that that's been something that I've tried
to get my head around, trying to picture the editorial
meetings at these you know, major journalistic institutions where they decide,
let's go with this story where the police are the
only source for the information. Do you think of that

(54:13):
as being put in place by powers, like architecturally structured
to put this power in place, Because I also feel
like there's also some some desire for that narrative coming
from below also, like from the readership, And I'm just wondering,
like how you think about that, Hey, does that inform

(54:38):
how how you approach people when you're trying to talk
to them about you know, the car soural system and
you know, things like that. There's this big infrastructure of
power and money that is like trying to keep these
institutions in place. But then there's also people who are
just like really quick to believe the the bullshit stories.

(55:01):
And I don't know if it's because that's what they've
always had, if it's because you know, it preserves their
feeling of superiority and protection, but just just interested to
hear your thoughts on that.

Speaker 4 (55:15):
I think it's a mix of things, right. So one,
I do think that if people were, you know, if
the reality of systemic oppression were laid bare for all people,
and the way in which people have been made to
participate in the impression of others was laid bare for
all people, that people would decline to participate in that,
especially if they were able to see how it impacts

(55:36):
their own personal safety. No one is safe in a
police state, whether or not we've been told we are.
Even if you have privilege, only the very select few are,
and often that is only for a limited time. But
you know, that is something that people don't want, and
so that is often kept from the people who are
made to participate most, right, people with the most privileged.

(55:59):
The reality of how unsafely are is something that many
of us can't escape, you know, and which is why
we're often the first and the most outspoken about trying
to change it. But that unsafety exists for everyone, and
that culpability exists, and people want to avoid it, and
people have been protected from it, and they're you know,
their bellies are soft to it, you know what I mean,

(56:21):
Like they're they don't they haven't built up that tolerance
for it and have been told that they would fall
apart if they knew the reality that they couldn't handle it,
and they're fed a constant diet of fear. When we
look at our media, and this constant fear of the other,
fear of this danger that is pumped into people. Right
we look at these shows where it's just this random

(56:41):
person gets a thirst for blood and is out murdering
people who's going to come help you, or you know,
like this, you know gang violence where the gang leaders
are just soul as creatures who popped out of nowhere
and they're going to take over your city if you don't,
you know, have this people are fed that and people
who don't have that firsthand experience with the reality of

(57:03):
these systems and are living this completely alternate reality and
are being told no other reality exists that you know,
you would feel comfortable calling a cop knowing they could
help you get your cat out of a tree or whatever,
and you'd be safe and everyone would because that's your reality.
Challenging that makes the world terrifying, right, It can make

(57:23):
the world team really terrifying. Challenging how you've been made
a part of it can seem really terrifying. It can
make you feel really powerless in a way that you know,
many of us have never had the luxury of avoiding.
And people will put up walls around that. And it
has little to do with intent. It has You can
say you care, you know, and you love, But if

(57:45):
you're not actively challenging these ideas and willing to sit
with that discomfort, then you'll have a problem. And people
don't want to hear it, right, People really don't want
to hear it. They don't want it to land on
their doorstep. If they are thinking about things like police brutality,
they want the name of the one cop that they
can yell at and blame because if it's a system

(58:06):
and they're, you know, paying taxes into that system, if
they've been supporting that system, if they voted for the
candidate who said they'll bring law and order and safety
to their area, knowing that that men it would increase
cops in black and brown communities, right, then there's a
whole level of culpability. And if that thing that they've
been pouring money and effort into would endanger their disabled child,

(58:28):
they don't want to know. They don't want that, they
don't want that reality, and so it's really important that
we challenge it while also showing that people are building
alternatives and that idea that we could build something else
is kept from a lot of people who've never had to.
And so it's always wild to me when people say, well,

(58:49):
what are you going to do? You know, what are
you going to do? If someone read you, that's the
thing people say a lot to me, right, especially as woman,
people will weaponize that against me. And then like, first
of all, I'm absolutely a survivor of sexual assault. Many
women have been, and please do anything right and my healing,
my sense of safety came from the practices that, like

(59:10):
my black and Brown community had to build to try
to address this because we always knew that we weren't
going to find safety in the system, and we weren't
going to find repair in the system. And so, you know,
those kind of ideas, these things that are thrown out
erases the fact that right now, the you know, a
large segment of blackground and indigenous populations, queer and trans

(59:32):
populations absolutely know that they could never find safety in
our systems and they have to build elsewhere, and they
have been, but that is completely erased. You know, the
ways in which we solve conflict is erased, the ways
in which we ensure safety is erased, the way in
which we heal each other and ourselves has been erased.
And it all comes down to you have to trust

(59:53):
this person with a gun. Nothing else has been done,
nothing else can work. And so media I think plays
a huge part in that they're invested in that because one,
they personally don't want to investigate that, and I've talked
with editors, you know, as a writer, who don't personally
want to investigate it. They want to keep it in
a comfortable place for them. But also they have funders
who are systemically you know, invested in this, and there

(01:00:15):
is a real backlash four people publicly taking a stand
and saying we're going to address the real roots of this.
People have been made to pay, and I do think
that people are afraid of that and afraid of challenging
those assumptions.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Yeah, I think one of the most like one of
sort of inspiring passages for me or just to just
to kind of put everything into perspective, right, because we
started off being like revolution just feel like this scary
idea and like, even though I know like we need
to actually look out for everybody, true liberation is only
when every single person is liberated, like even if they
don't look like me or not part of my community.

(01:00:51):
That there was I think it was Miriam Caaba who
you were saying, like which really put this into perspective,
was like it's it's not about like these big things, right,
It's like I might be butchering the quote, but it's
just about taking out removing just the bricks of like
these oppressive systems. It doesn't have to be a wrecking
ball type moment, because if if everybody's taken a brick

(01:01:11):
out one by one for themselves, shit will start crumbling.
That's just there's just no way for something structurally to
keep it structural integrity if we're always like just kind
of picking away at it. And I think that's a
really important message for I think, and I really encourage
our listeners to really, uh to check your book out,
because we are in such a time right now where

(01:01:33):
I feel like everyone feels like they're banging their heads
against a wall and they're like, I'm seeing this happen
right now, am I Like, but we're not doing the
right things. And I think it really is an empowering
message a to see these other stories of people who
a lot of are starting from absolute powerlessness and then
opening the door to something really really substantive and really

(01:01:54):
monumental without necessarily that being the initial intention of it,
of just it's more just about advocating for yourself. So
I really thank you for putting all of these stories
together and your words around it. Because as someone who's done,
like worked from all over the political spectrum, from being
a lobbyist to being like in the streets and things
like that, I've always sort of grappled with these feelings

(01:02:16):
of like where my power lies or how I can
actually exercise that and what it means to be revolutionary
or not. And I think it makes it a very
accessible way and I think is very powerful, I think
for people to understand that it's just about these small actions,
because they all like, we can't just think we can't.
We have to get out of like the superhero mentality
of them, like I'm going to figure it out by
myself right now. Rather than can I contribute to a

(01:02:39):
community that's doing well, can I from my space say,
you know what, maybe we don't need funding that's contingent
upon us interacting with the police to keep our nonprofit going,
et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I just again I
feel like, thank you for putting this book out, and yeah,
it's really great to just be able to speak with
you today. It's just been really eye opening and I'm

(01:03:01):
sure our listeners have had the same experience too.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah, truly a pleasure. Thank you for coming on. All right,
we'll have to have you back on again. Yeah, but
thank you for writing this book, Thank you for coming
on to talk to us about it. Where can people
find the book? Find you all that good stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
You can find the book anywhere books are sold. I
highly make command if you're buying online, go to bookshop
dot org or your local indie store or libro sm
if you listen to your audiobooks because those all support
our independent booksellers, which is super important. And you can
find me. All you have to know is have spell
my name. I figure you learn that you can find
me on social media. Everything is under my name. You

(01:03:39):
can find my substack, you can find my Instagram, you
can find my Facebook. And I just hope that people
love the book, engage with it and find their own
little piece of revolution that they can be a part of.

Speaker 6 (01:03:52):
Yeah, it's I j E O m A O l
uo for people looking to spell amazing. Is there a
work a media that you've been enjoying.

Speaker 4 (01:04:04):
Yeah, I have been really loving the So for me
like kind of relaxing, finding a little bit of joy.
Is this segment of like young black male fashion influencers
who are really embracing, like really colorful, flamboyant fashion, skirts, heels, suits, cosplay,
kind of turning it all into their own thing in

(01:04:28):
a way that I feel like only the black community
really can and I love them. So I have just
been you know, wisdom k is like when I think
of the pops to mind right away. But there's a
lot of like these young early twenties black men who
are like, you know what, I want to wear clothes,
and I just want to wear things that are beautiful.
And I'm going to be walking around the streets of
New York in this beautiful thing from head to toe

(01:04:49):
and I'm gonna blog it and I want people to
see it. And I just that itself, you know, every
day for our community, where so much of our definitions
of my masculinity you have been externally imposed upon us.
To have this younger generation say, actually, this is what
this looks like for me, and I'm going to define
it proudly and show it for other people to find

(01:05:12):
their own definition of self is also a really revolutionary
thing while also being beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Look at Amazing Miles. Where can people find you? Is
there a workimedia you've been enjoying?

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Yeah, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram when
other at based platforms at Miles of Gray. Find Jack
and I on our basketball podcast, Miles and jackobat host Tea.
If you like something a little casual, check out my
ninety Day Fiance podcast for twenty day Fiance and let's
see a tweet I like is from Socialist Sopranos memes

(01:05:43):
at gobble ghoul Marks. It's a picture of Polly talking
to Tony and he's got his hands up and he says,
all I'm saying, Tea is if they're gonna nominate Barbie
for Best Picture, they probably should have nominated some of them.
Broad's that was involved capture the the angst of all
the Oscar snuffs in the way Socialist Sopranos Memes only

(01:06:07):
knows how tweet I've been enjoying is just Kevin Durant's
response to finding out that Joe El Embiid scored seventy
points last week. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
This one really stuck with me. Kevin Durant is my
favorite basketball fan. He's like obviously one of the best
players of all time, but he just gets his look
of like kind of I don't know, joy and he
just like kind of gets this thousand yard staris like
he turned seventy al was like so excited and just

(01:06:39):
a great moment to appreciate. What a great basketball fan,
Kevin Durant. Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at
Jack Underscore. O'Brian. You can find us on Twitter at
daily Zeikeeist. We're at the Daily Zeigeist on Instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
We have a Facebook fan page and a website daily
zeikeist dot com, where we post our episode and our footnote.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
We link off to the information that we talked about
in today's episode, as well as a song that we
think you might enjoy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
Wow, is there a song that you think people might
have done? Yeah, Two of some of my favorite producers
DJs get together every now and then. That's Kareem Riggins
and mad Lib and they do this little project called
the Jahari Massamba Unit, and it's just a blend of
their you know, jazzy hip hop sort of roots with
a little bit like African rhythm. So this track is

(01:07:29):
called Masamba Apun Dance a Fu and d a Ncee
and it's just a great track. And if you like
Kareem Riggins or mad Lib on their own, you'll definitely
love them together on this one. So this one now,
all right?

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
We will look off to that in the footnotes. The
Daily Zeitgeis is a production of iHeart Radio. For more
podcast from my Heart Radio is the ihart radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
that is gonna do it for us this morning, back
this afternoon to tell you what is trending, and we
will talk to you all then.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Bye bye,