Top 10 of 2025: #8 Ms. Piggy w/ Jamie Loftus

We are counting down the top 10 episodes of 2024, as voted by our listeners. At #8, we have:

Icon #3: Ms. Piggy w/ Jamie Loftus

In this episode, Miles and Jack are joined by writer/actor/comedian/podcaster Jamie Loftus to talk about the woman. the pig. the legend:

Ms. Piggy.

They'll explore her origin story, relationship with Kermit (and lackthereof with Fozzie), and her status as a queer icon?

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, zeich Gang, and welcome to the end of the year.
During these two weeks surrounding Christmas and the New Year,
we take some time off. During the mornings, we'll run
some new holiday and end of the year content that
you can listen to while we're taking a break. This year,
we've got our review of the year at Movies Predictions
for the coming year Sanna University. We look back at

(00:22):
some holiday classics with Chris Croft, and so much good
stuff dropping in the mornings. In addition to all that
stuff in the afternoons where we would usually drop the
Trends episode, we are rerunning the ten most popular episodes
of this year according to you. You voted with your
dang years and we listened with ours. Actually, we looked

(00:45):
at the data we're spying on you. Honestly, I'm mostly
in this podcasting thing for the rich marketing data it
provides to me about each and every one of you.
At the end of the year, when I look back
to see what made the top ten, and this was
actually my favorite year to look back at. Our top
ten is full of episodes I feel like made it

(01:08):
because of a bunch of different reasons. There are some
episodes that dropped after huge news events. There are some
first episodes that dropped right after some hilarious news events,
some great new guests, some classic fan favorite guests, and
some new formats we tried out that we're very excited
to see that you guys enjoyed. Before we get into it,

(01:29):
I just want to thank you guys for once again
being such a cool community that's bloomed up around this
podcast we've been doing all these years. You guys repeatedly
make us proud. You're there for us when we go
through some really difficult shit. You show up at shows
of our guests, and we always get great reports from
our guests about our listeners. You are the rare podcast

(01:54):
audience that makes us extremely proud to have you as
listeners so far, So don't don't fuck this up, you guys,
all right, and here we are. The eighth most popular
episode of the year is called Icon number three, Miss
Piggy with Jamie Loftus. It dropped on December one of

(02:14):
this year. It's one of the aforementioned new formats that
we tried out. It features the always great Jamie Loftus
and Miss Piggy faking an orgasm.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Enjoy got Blueberry Mango I found.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
I found it the other day.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
I was like, all right up, yeah, Blue Map Call
Ourselves Group.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Remember those Intel commercials icons. The Blue Man Group is coming.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Is that on your list? Blue Man Group?

Speaker 1 (02:46):
It's not, but it's just an added group ship.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Blue Man groups should definitely be on Blue Man Group.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, there's nothing funnier than a Blue Man Group revealed.
There's like a literary fiction writer who I really like.
I was on her Wikipedia page and it was like
she was formal She's divorced from a blue Man and
you're like, oh wow, You're like that's who that book
was about.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
That's crazy because they're all like these like art dudes
from New York.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
Is how it started, and then it just turned into
like a Vegas It was like such a New York thing.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
I felt like, yeah, they're like like ex Brooklyn guys
who like needed work. And I was like, wow, she
got her heart stomped on by a blue Man.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
That I hear you ought to know is actually about
Blueman Blue Man.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, that's right. Alanis Morisa, the founding Blue Man.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Hello the Internet, and welcome to this spinoff episode of Wait,
which we're calling the iconograph. Instead of looking at the
zeitgeist through current events, we're looking at it through the
lens of the powerful pop cultural wore cruxes that are
our icons. We use these characters to create meaning, to

(03:56):
build identity, to learn conversational French, to know the appropriate
sound to make when beating the ship out of our
long term boyfriend, which is there?

Speaker 3 (04:08):
It is hell, that's right.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
In this episode, we're talking piggies, Miss Piggy, if you're nasty,
and that's why I did leave it for you, Miles.
With apologies to Kermit the Frog and David Bowie's codpiece,
maybe the most famous and beloved of Jim Henson's creations,
Miss Piggy. I'm thrilled to be joined, as always by
my co host, mister Oh.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
I love this. I love it.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
I love its starting off, and I'm like, it's this,
that's not you know, we're habitual, habitual doing the show
one way. That's great, great. I love the topic, dude,
love a good love a good hy Yah.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's like an earworm. It's like an earworm of a thing.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
When you really get it like that.

Speaker 4 (04:52):
It's smart, that's right, it's hitting it tingles the brain
a little bit little tease.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
It is the first thing. It's the thing that crystallized
the character for Francos when he did like he improvised
that and was like, oh, this is when I understood
the character for the first time.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
This guy. Oh fuck yeah, this is a character.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
I found it well. That who you heard in the
background in her third seat one of the very faces
on Mount Zeitmore an Emmy nominated writer, artist, comedian behind
many of the most acclaimed podcasts like a Cast, Ghost Church,
The Bechdel Cast, Sixteenth Minute of Fame. She's the New
York Times best selling author of Raw Dolph. It's Jamie Loft, Jamie.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, hell yeah, hell yeah? Feel good?

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Right good? I feel good.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
I don't think I've ever hit someone with the high yah.
You know.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, it's just like a cute thing to do to
your partner, as long as you don't like fucking smash
those actually, I mean she like.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
A powerful attack. She had likes so much.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yea, and his arms.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Have you seen his arms?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Oh my god, he goes There have to be ones
where he just goes flying, right.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, there is there, yeah, where he just goes flying
like it's a fucking explosion.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
And a mission impossible, Like, and I get a YouTube
if there's like a Miss Piggy compilation just her fucking
ship up.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
I found one earlier. Guys, thank you so much for joining.
Jamie so so excited to have you here for this.
I did hear your Bechdel Cast episode about the Muppet movie,
so I was like, gotta have Jamie on for Miss
Piggy because you're you're a Piggy Stan.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
I'm a Piggy Stan. I wish, I wish I was
more like her, but I feel like everyone has their
inner Miss Piggy. But yeah, I really need to start, uh,
you know, really hitting people more.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
I think that's that's what we're lying.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
The main takeaway, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
And whatever. Voh she doesn't really understand French, but she
sprinkles it throughout and that's cute. Do you guys have
like a singular like, oh, that's when I when Miss
Piggy was crystallized for me in your memory. Like I
was looking back and I was like, oh, I think
the first time I encountered her was on those like

(07:26):
reading posters in elementary school classrooms like she was and
then that was the first time I encountered grown up
Miss Piggy because I knew Miss Piggy from Muppet Babies.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Right right right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
I think my for me, it probably starts like anyone
I was like, it was always Kermit and Miss Piggy.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
In my mind.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yeah, so a couple I can't think of, Like even
if I knew Kermit before Miss Piggy. I feel like
to me they entered my brain at the same time,
even though I think, what Kermit, she didn't? It was
always Kermit first. But look, I was a kid, it
was the eighties. I didn't know shit, we're going to
get into it.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
I think my my entry point to Miss Piggy. I
think the first Mubget thing I remember seeing is Mubget
Treasure Island. I have a vivid memory of getting into
a big fight with my cousin because we were fighting
over because the kid who plays Jim Hawkins, we both
had a crush on him, and we were fighting over

(08:21):
who gets to marry him.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
And it was.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
The marriage right and we start.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
We would do that over every like boy protagonist, and
we also did it over There's a movie called Casper
A New Beginning, and there was an identical looking boy
that we were, we would just we would hie out
each other for this, like you know, mysterious child's hand
in marriage. So I remember miss piggying that muppy Christmas Carol.
I feel like I saw the movies before I saw

(08:48):
the ever saw the TV show right.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Real quick, some kind of icon bone fie D's because
last week we talked about how popular Arcle was that
you know, every season from season two through seven of
his show like destroyed. What the most watched TV in
modern times is? I think it was like pulling in
twenty to twenty seven million viewers a week. The most

(09:13):
viewed show currently is Monday Night Football at like sixteen
million people. I just want to read this description of
the Muppet Show. When it was on, It aired in
over one hundred countries and had a weekly worldwide audience
by nineteen seventy eight of two hundred and thirty five
million people. No fucking way stop, because it was everywhere.

(09:38):
It was like so global.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
I feel like maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like
it up until fairly recently, I feel it was sort
of difficult to find old episodes of the Muppet Show.
I didn't see them until I was in college and
the guest they were pulling was like, yeah, so I
don't know, I feel like whatever, we don't have monoculture
at all anymore, but particularly like monoculture that was pulling

(10:00):
so many different kinds of people. As the host, like
I've I had the Rudolph narre Of episode had a
very strong impression of like they would have like Ballerinas
hosting shot culture to two hundred and thirty five million people.
That's nuts. It is a weird mix of high and low.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
And then just for for my example, the thing that
proves to me the lasting power of like how iconic
the Muppets are. Something we were talking about was there's
that LCD sound System video for Dance Yourself Clean that
like every white guy is like, have you seen this?
Have you seen this YouTube video? It's like for Dance
Yourself Clean, but it's got Muppets in it, and the

(10:42):
video like objectively sucks. It's not a good video.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Was it? Like a few days ago?

Speaker 4 (10:48):
You brought it up and we started watching it and
I was like, I had never seen it.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
I was like this.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Brian was just and brought it up and was like
every white guy just like I didn't show this three
different white guys, and I was like, me too, and
then we watched it and we were like this sucks.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, guys, the City Puitier, like the guests they would
have on the show were absolutely like yeah, and everyone
is having the time of their lives, because how could
you not, like, it's just so cool. Harry Belafonte another
really good episode, just really.

Speaker 5 (11:24):
Said made that a frintage. I just thought the image
of acting trash can it's funny believable that you know,
it's like Sney getting trash can. We shouldn't believe anything
you say in the chat.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
Ship.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
Wait, okay, I feel like I read Yeah the City.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
When they had Nelson Mandela on.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
After he died, was right, yeah, it's just the seen bears.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Well, the Harry Belafonte episode is genuinely great.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yes, all right, So Miles, to your point of like,
Kermit was first, and then Miss Piggy, she was invented
in nineteen seventy four. Kermit came around in nineteen fifty five,
Ralph the Dog nineteen sixty two, and then Miss Piggy'
is like the next kind of iconic character. But Ralph
the Dog was like invented for a dog chow commercial.

(12:27):
It seems like a lot of these things were like
invented on an as needed basis. They were like, I
don't know, we need a girl one, let's do it.
Let's do the pig. And then they like kind of
iterate on it. But it's Kermit as old as fuck.
First of all, like the borderline problematic that they had
a relationship. But then seventy five Animal Sam, the Eagles,

(12:48):
Statler and Wald or the Swedish chef. Seventy six we
got Fozzy, which we can talk about Fozzy, but yeah,
they just seemed to do it on an as neya basis.
And then you know, now that puppet exists and now
we can like do stuff with that puppet. But I

(13:09):
want to talk before because you know.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
The interesting phrasing, interesting phrasing.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
We can do that, we can do stuff, we can
do that, we can think about it, we can create
backstories as we'll get into.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
You can get it.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, now we can do Now.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
We can do stuff with that puppet. We can think
about it.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
I feel like Ralph the Dog has fallen off in
the public, like.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Falling off.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
I don't dislike Ralph as I dislike other Muppets.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, we'll get to that.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
But I think he's fallen off a bit.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Not a not a huge fazzy fan from what I've.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Heard, not a huge fazzy fan. Fozzy is triggering for me.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Uh Miss for some reason, this tax stand up comedian
is triggering to somebody.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
I fazy. Whenever I look, I can see Fozzy. If
I look in the mirror, I can't see. I can't
be around Fozzy. I see five Fozzies a night. It's
all Fozzies.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Miss Piggy wasn't actually a Jim Henson creation. She was
actually designed by Bonnie Ericsson, who this is somebody that
I didn't know about coming into this.

Speaker 6 (14:21):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
She also like she's invented a bunch of the mascots
that are like still roaming NBA stadiums to this day.
Maybe her like it right up there with Miss Piggy,
depending on who you're talking to, the Philly Fanatic mascot
she designed.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Billy.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
That makes perfect sense because that rocks The Philly Fanatic
does feel like something off a Henson show.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, it has Henson vibes. I mean she was I
think like the director of the workshop, but on designing
the Philly Fanatic. She said, the managers approached us to
design a mascot who could encourage fans to bring their
families to the games. So we had to design a
character who was child friendly, was playful and a little irreverent,
but not too silly. We'd heard from the Phillies that

(15:10):
their crowd had booed the Easter Bunny. Was the challenge
to come up with something that was not going to
talk down to their audience. Like that is when you
think about it, fact she created a silly, billy child
muppet mascot that Philly has just completely embraced is such

(15:30):
an accomplishment that we just like take for granted.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
And then when did the Philly Fanatic launch? Was it
like around the same time.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
Around the same time. She kind of she was just
like fucking on fire for like four years. She created
I mean, she created Staaler and Waldorf, she created a
bunch of like really iconic characters, and she created Miss
pig So Miss Piggy's name was originally Miss Piggy Lee
as a reference to Peggy Lee, who was a jazz

(15:59):
singer who I wasn't that familiar with. I went and
listened to like her top songs on Apple Music, and
they're either Christmas songs or like wildly depressed.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Oh yeah, like rocking around the Christmas Tree? Is Peggy?
Is that Peggy?

Speaker 2 (16:13):
And I was like, am I confusing? Who's you? Is
that Peggy?

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Something fever is her? So that's that's her. But then
she has this one called is That All There Is?

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Oh? I love that song. Oh it's dark.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
It's like it tells the story of like being at
a Christmas party or at a birthday party when you're
young and like is that all there is? And going
to a circus and being like is that all there is?
And then she's like, and I know what you think,
I'm gonna kill myself, But I know if I killed
myself as I was like going to the Pearly Gates,
I'd just be like, is that all there is? It's
a really dark shit which there's a lot of like

(16:51):
dark stuff in Piggy like written into her backstory that
I was not familiar with and didn't read to me.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
I wonder if Peggy they ever like got like met her,
because I get it. I get why they didn't keep them.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
That's why they had to. Yeah, she's threatened to sue
over the puppet. So Miss piggyly became simply Miss Piggy.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Now you'd be honored to have Miss Piggy associated but
untested if they're like, so there's this pig on TV,
and yeah, I get it. She's like, my sons are
already depressing, right.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Her boyfriend she started out, she's incredibly abusive. She started
out like as sort of a background character. She was
in like a sketch about Planet of the Apes where
it was like Planet of the Pigs, and she was
just like one of the characters. She had like little
button eyes. She didn't have her big like beautiful colored

(17:54):
iris eyes like a dollar's eyes. And she didn't sound
like herself yet it was she was at that time
played by Jerry Nelson doing just like a real standard
guy doing a girl voice.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
It was just glue. It's just like you did that. Well, yeah,
I know it wasn't quite that good.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Sorry, I'm a professional voice man, but yeah, bit of
a voice, but it does. I mean, like I was
saying the uh so eloquently before about how they create
the puppet and that puppet exists and now they can
do stuff with that puppet. Uh, I do it's it
kind of reminds me of like SNL talent, Jamie. One

(18:41):
of my favorite of your obsessions is like when an
SNL person like shows up on the thing and then
two years later they look completely different.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
They got the Veneers, they got.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
The Veneers, they got the glow up.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
They literally I like to like, Lord Michael slams your
head against the table and thought, he was like, I
guess you need.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
You need new teeth now.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
But I feel like if you can make their eyes bigger,
he probably would, right.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, give him the watch and we'll
call it. What's the movie the Clockwork Orange?

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (19:14):
But also this is second week in a row where
we're covering a character who became arguably the most iconic
thing from their world, and who starts out in the
background and then we watch as they just like grow
and grow as the public responds more and more to them.
But yeah, I just I do think in terms of

(19:34):
like why we have Miss Piggy, it's like having the
multiple projects iterating, and then when they needed a female character,
they went to a woman who just like happened to
be a genius and was like inventing huge chunks of
popular culture in like just a few short years.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
That's so I still can't get past two hundred and
thirty five million people.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, thirty five million people.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
That is just like, wow, Okay, that's everybody. That's isn't
every person? That's everybody.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
That's everyone in the world people, everyone in the world.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
So people watching puppets on TV, like, that's that's nuts.

Speaker 4 (20:15):
I mean, cause it is also I mean, like when
you think about it, Rkle had twenty something million for
a few years in America versus two hundred and thirty
five globally, and you're like, oh, that's why, Like I
feel like children now, like you chow a kid and wherever.
Most places like do you know this character? And they'd
be like miss Piggy and I'm like do you know
who this is? And They're like that's a man with

(20:37):
suspenders on? Right, So I'm like, that's circle, But that's fun.
You're just not cultured.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Well, I'm also sure I'm guessing. I mean, I don't
know much about like Muppets internationally, but it must be
like there's so it's like such a double bowle show
that it's got to be super easy to adapt to.
It basically anywhere.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, puppets, Pupets are great.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Puppets are Puppets are great. Is also one of my
conclusions that I come to, like I was saying. Her
breakout moment came when oz improvised her trademark karate chop
during a scene with Kermit. Originally the script called for
a slap, but he decided to go with a karate chop,
which then allowed him to his quote is the script
called for Piggy to slap Kermit. Instead of a slap,

(21:20):
I gave him a funny karate hit. Somehow, that hit
crystallized her character for me, the coyness, hiding, the aggression,
the conflict of that love with her desire for a career,
her hunger for glamour image, her tremendous out and out ego.
Which it's just interesting that that was so foundational for
him because it's also the first thing, like my brain
spits out when I like think of miss Piggy. If

(21:42):
I like have to think of her doing something, it's
the karate chop.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
It's so good. I love hearing like actors talk about
like they're silly ass character because it has to be
so I mean, and it is important but like it
has to sound so important. My favorite example of that is,
do you guys remember when Bill Ny he played mewtwo
in Detective Pikachu.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
No, I mean I know, well.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
He did, and I love sometimes I'll go if I
can watch his interviews about that movie for fun, because
he's just like when I fold about Mew two and
you're just like, You're like, yeah, man, you sound like
an idiot, but that is your job. Like I just
love it. Yeah, Like Frank Oz is like, how how

(22:30):
does the pig think? Where's she coming from?

Speaker 4 (22:33):
Yeah, we're gonna be like and then this is it
her frustration, She's trying to balance it all, her career,
her love life in this high Yah, I'm like, did
you really think that at the time?

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Did you know?

Speaker 4 (22:42):
It's just sort of like instinct as a performer, Like, okay, yes,
because I think a.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Lot of the cases, these moments of inspiration for these
kind of characters come when they're like like in this case,
it was just like I needed to do a thing,
and I did this instead of the thing that the
script called for. And then like it like kind of
all comes together with Rkle Like we were talking about
he like at the audition, he was like, I don't know,
like I went out of body, like I blacked out

(23:08):
and like came to and I was like everyone was laughing, right,
Like that's also like Elvis, the character of Elvis, which
like wasn't how he actually was as a bit because
he was like tanking this like he was like trying
to sing a song and it was like all serious
and sad, and everyone's like, this guy fucking stinks. And
then he like started goofing around and doing the Elvis

(23:30):
voice and people were like do that, Like.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
I think, I fucking this is amazing.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
I want this guy to fuck Borner. But I feel
like it's like the creator needs to get out of
their own way or something to like then have it
all like come together. But yeah, so Frank Oz ends
up being the person who plays Piggy. I always thought
it was because Piggy and Fozzy fucking hated each other,
but Oz actually plays both of them, and so that's

(23:58):
why they're never around at the same time. Jamie, do
you think there's any way this is the reason you hate.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Fozzy Because if Fozzy's on screen.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Like literally getting in the way of Kermit and.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Pig more misfy. I just think Fozzy like needs to
hang it up, Like I just it's hard for me.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
You think it's because he fucking sucks? Is that why?

Speaker 7 (24:24):
Well?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
I think he's really he really stinks up the place
for a number of reasons. But like if all the
like a lot of the early Muppets movies are about
them trying to make it big, and it's like Fozzy
is an active hindrance. I'm not rooting for his success.
I like, he's not gonna make it. He's not gonna
make it, and he's getting in everyone else's way, and

(24:45):
I need him to move back home. Where do they where?
Because I forget in the Muppet movie where you know he.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Gets where they start from? Yeah, I forget. Yeah, It's
like somewhere isn't he along the way? Don't they like
he is a I find from somewhere along the way,
Like might just be an open mic yeah and go
back el.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
Slezo Cafe, I think is what it was called.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
And realistically, Fozzy's got to go to grad school and
like he just has to pack it up. He bums
me out.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
I just love you would be a character in him
up at film who plays like the bad Hollywood manager
who's like, look, Kermit, you got to get rid of Fazzy.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
He's getting in the way. He's an active hindrance to
your career.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
Kid, he he's a star, Kirbit, You've got a natural charisma,
friend of.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
God, get rid of this fuck the manager.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Isn't that like where managers come from, is they like
fail and then they're like, well, hang out with these people.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
Let's get Fozzy an internship at w M. Let's just
figure something in.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
The mail room. Yeah, work your way up.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
He could be Turtle Fazzy.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
I bet if you asked Fozzy which entourage character he was,
he'd be like, oh, I'm kind of evinced type fucking
not dude, are you?

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, Fozzy and and and I don't know, I think,
especially if I don't care if you like Fozzy, if
Fozzy is your favorite, let's talk, because what does it mean.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Fozzy can't be anyone's favorite at this point?

Speaker 4 (26:19):
No, no, I remember, because Fozzy to me was like bummy.
I didn't like his energy. I didn't like his fucking
tie or like scarf thing. They were just didn't appeal
to me. Like I was Kermit Gang from the beginning.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yes, absolutely, Kermit has there's something about him. There's just
something about that.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
We do ask on every episode, like if they actually
existed in reality in our world, would this icon have
been on the Epstein flight logs?

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Andzzy, as we've already.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Covered Miss Freggy not on the flight logs, but take
another look for Fozzy. Yes, like there's it's only a
matter of time. Like a failed comedian like he Fozzie
would be on fucking kill Tony who refuses to be
in the same room as Miss Piggy as the woman
in the group.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Fozzie would do a private event in mar A Lago.
He will, Yeah, he would have no issue about it.
And then he would say business is business.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
He's exactly.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
He's like, welcome to the Foston, Texas comedy scene, is
what you'd be telling people.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, yeah, he's lawless. He's like like all bad comedians,
he's gonna have to he's gonna you know, the only
way for him to be successful is by going full fascist.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, well and even then they're like this
guy fucking stinks.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, it's big game season. We're taking down fozz Fozzie
Bear put his head on my wall.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
So to your about how seriously sometimes performers take their roles.
Frank Oz like says that like Piggy is his. He
thinks Piggy was so successful because she's like got the
most depth in the most going on, And he wrote
a four page Stanislavskian analysis of Miss Piggy's life that

(28:20):
is like so dark.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
It's Oh wait, did she have like a Charles entered
him in cheese styles story?

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, she has kind of a fucked up backstory, all right,
frank Oz. Although Miss Piggy's essentially humorous to me, She's
had a sad, difficult, painful life. This is not for
the audience to know, but the puppeteers should know the
background of any good character in order to be able
to improvise. I thought we would get like an extensive
martial arts background, but it's actually like depressing dust bullshit.

(28:50):
According to Oz, Piggy grew up in a small town.
Her father died when she was young. Her mother wasn't
that nice to her. She had to enter beauty contests
to survive. She has a lot of aggressiveness, but she
needs a lot to survive, as many single women do.
She has a lot of vulnerability, which she has to
hide because of her need to be a superstar. He

(29:11):
also said the miss Piggy's father chased after other sows
and her mother had so many piglets she never found
time to develop her mind. I'll die before I live
like that, Piggy screamed. She then left for the city
and got a job wearing a sandwich board for and
this is where it gets like really fucked up for

(29:31):
a barbecue stand, and entered a beauty contest under the
name Laverne. Her big break was at bacon commercial, which
led her to a job as mascot for a local
TV sports cast called pig Skin Parade. And then she
got on The Muppet Show. Just like so much cannibalism
packed into the last like two paragraphs.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Of Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
This isn't for the public to know.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
Is she feats on the flesh of her own so
busy breeding that she didn't have time to develop her mind.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Her mind, Oh.

Speaker 4 (30:07):
My god, I thought I was gonna end like fucking
grapes of wrath. It's like and she had a breastfeed
a dying man.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
That really took a turn. That told me a lot
about frank Oz. I really interesting where he was where
he was at. That is so brutal. I do like that.
I I rewatched a little bit of it this morning,

(30:33):
like a really good video essay about Miss Piggy by
be kind Rewind on YouTube. Oh yeah, yeah, I love
her channel. I like rewatched the first couple of minutes
and I was like, I gotta save it for the pod.
I was just hyped on the pig today. But like, yeah,
like how that story is like that's way darker than
I was aware of. But it does feel like mapped
on like an old school like I'm just a little

(30:57):
girl from a little town and I had a hard
time and here it's like a Marilyn Monroe kind of
like sure I took some pictures when I was a
young Sure pig I wasn't proud of.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
So what.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
And I mean maybe that's what the like cannibalism is,
you know, or the like having to sell yourself out.
Like I think there's probably like some metaphors in there
that are just like incredibly dark.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
The I don't I don't have an issue with that.
Her mom catching a stray like that.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
That was harh. That was really hard.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
My mom's a dumb bitch.

Speaker 4 (31:29):
That was really fucking figure anything out anyway. So Fozzi's
actually what if his back is? Like, So Fozzy's like
actually a sick comedian dude, Like everybody loves him. He's
so fucking funny. When he enters a space, he lights.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Up the fun wishes she could get with Fozzy, But
unfortunately I'm both of them.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
The comedic voice of a generation isn't always recognized right away.
Sometimes it takes some time.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
My hope is that posthumously Fuzzy will be recognized for
his uh, his contribution.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
But he's really the veno.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
I don't. His parents are like puppeteers. I kind of
like rend puppeteers too, Yeah, oh.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Puppet, that's fun. That's fun.

Speaker 4 (32:12):
They like escaped like like Holland or something in World
War Two, and like his parents had puppets that mocked
eight off Hitler. I was just reading like some of
his They were like about that puppeteers.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah, yeah, holy shit.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Okay, the puppet is mightier than the sword, as.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
They said, you know, the best way to criticize to
make a full of people in power. One cool detail
that I think I actually got from the be kind
Rewind episode was that the reason she always wears pink
and purple and like aqua and like those colors. Is
because based on this backstory as psychological aversion to the

(32:50):
earth tones that she lived with on the farm. Wow,
that's like the sort of thing I was looking for,
you know. It's just like and here's like a fun
design detail that like we explain with and it's like
she was in a commercial forbid right wearing a sandwich board.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Frankaus is like the coolest, one of the coolest people
to ever do anything. I was like the fact that
he co created Miss Piggy and then like directed Little
Shop of Horrors and like bow Finger.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Like it's just nuts. Stapford Wives that movie.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Okay, maybe not that one, that one, there's a couple
of wee can skip a few, but but like Little
Shop of Horrors, come.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
On, that's great, that's good stuff.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
It's amazing. Oh yeah, and Yoda. I guess the fact
that Yoda's number three on the list is impressible.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Behind this Piggy and Fozzy, I think that, like I
want to get to this later, but the fact that
they are one of the few fictional characters that can
like show up to Prince Charles's coronation and it like
makes sense, which kind of makes sense, but like I
feel like the Henson Company like treated them as if

(34:08):
they were real, which is maybe why they're like the
only fictional characters will accept as real. Almost.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
I was thinking this this morning, so, like there's a
new Miss Piggy movie coming out at some point, which
is like super excited about that I didn't know about
before today. I was so excited.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
I was talking to you know, Michael Yes and produced
by ammastone on Stone and Jals.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
It just it just makes sense. But I was like, Okay,
so we're assuming if we're gonna say that movie is
going to be nominated for a lot of Oscars. Right,
does Miss Piggy get nominated for an Oscar? U? Miss
Piggy is still voiced by a man? Miss Piggy gets
nominated for the Oscar? Right, it doesn't work if Miss

(34:54):
Piggy's not nominated for the Oscar. But I mean the
gender lines and award categories are ridiculous anyway, But like
this unique case, She's like, what do we do?

Speaker 4 (35:03):
It is funny. It's like a Supreme Court case that
changes everything. It's like and in this scenario, how do
we move forward?

Speaker 1 (35:09):
We've actually there is precedent speaking of the Supreme Court,
there is president for this. Because while so, yeah, she
really becomes a superstar with the Muppet Movie in nineteen
seventy nine, you know, does the karate chop moment of
like realization. Frank Oz goes back and like writes this
horrifying backstory and suddenly she's this fully formed character. And
the Muppet Movie comes along and everyone.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
Is like, who is that?

Speaker 1 (35:34):
Like they I mean, they knew her from the show,
but like she really Like I was watching the Ciskel
and Ebert review of The Muppet Movie and Ciskel was like,
I only liked the movie when she was on screen.
Like he was like so smitten with Miss Piggy. He
also like he's also like the part where they like
flip her upside down and you see how bigger thighs are.
It's like, oh my god, okay, man, oh cool. But

(36:00):
there was a fan led campaign to get Miss Piggy
an Academy Award nomination for Best Actress. Two fans in
Cincinnati launched CAMPO, which stood for the Committee to Award
Miss Piggy and Oscar. They received thirty five thousand letters
of support and delivered them to the Academy of Motion
Picture Arts and Sciences. In response, the Academy made this statement,

(36:23):
which I just have to include for like just a
massive l. While the Academy does not participate in the
pork barrel campaigns, which are an unfortunate part of the
annual OSCAR campaign, we do wish you appropriate success with
your commendable support of such a weighty candidate of Academy honors. Oh, guys,

(36:43):
get fucked. Honestly, that.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
Sasty. She I mean, miss Piggy has to have been
gone to the Oscars before.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
She has, so she at those Oscars presented or I
think introt Us Rainbow Connection, which was nominated that year,
and like did a bit about how she like couldn't
fucking believe that she wasn't nominated. It was like, really good,
it was her.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Johnny Carson and insult her in the same I know that's.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Backhanded then she so.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Nineteen seventy nine, Big Year was on the cover of
People magazine, which referred to her as the Muppet Movies
new sex goddess. The late seventies were like so weird,
I don't know so she's she talks about how the
Queen tried to fix her up with Prince Charles better
than Prince Andrew. Thank god.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Okay, that would be a real state. That would that
would not bode well for the flight log side.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, that would have been she wouldn't have been on there. Man,
she would have chopped the shit out of him.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
That's true. Yeah, he wouldn't have made it. Maybe she
could have. She would have killed him. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
The article also suggest Elliott Gould suggests that he fucked
Miss Piggy in it. He says, I turned down Miss Universe,
but I couldn't turn down Miss Piggy.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
That actually that pairing. I feel like Elliott Gould does
have like a little bit of current about him. I
feel like she's got a type. Yeah, for sure got
a type.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
You got that frog in him, he's got he got
that frog. In the early eighties, it has such a
weird Yeah, good guy who fucks but everybody, I feel
like everybody in the late seventies had like guy with
a ponytail from a documentary about like orgies energy where

(38:30):
they're just like we're just here to enjoy each other's
bodies and like, yeah, it's just like that.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Guy's always there and he's like, oh god, it's yeah,
it reminds me of that there. It's like a kind
of an older video now. But Chris Fleming made a
great song about Polly Couples years and years ago, where
it's like, it's never the person you want to be Pollie,
who's Polly. It's a guy being like I have one
hundred board games at my house, like.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
No, no, But in this case we're talking about Elliott Gould,
which I would I'm on board with miss Piggy and
Elliott Gould. I love that rumor.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah that would make Kermit jealous too.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Oh hell yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
We'll get to their relationship. But it's I don't know,
going back and rewatching some of the stuff. I was like,
I don't love how he treats her, like obviously, like
there there's a big like re examination of her, like
hitting him, but also he's like kind of a dick
sometimes to her, like.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
Trying to put a wedge between him so you can
move Like, I don't know, girl, like I feel.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Well, you're like like me for example, So I'm just.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
Saying like I don't know, I don't know. I got
like a hundred board games back in White Place.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
I haven't taken my hat off yet, but I'll let
the ponytail drop out in a little bit.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
That would be a ponytail.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Reveal, shaking it out.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, this is who I am.

Speaker 4 (40:01):
Like when the nerdy character takes the pencil out of
their hair and like an eighties like, oh god, like
whoa long hair?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
But it's kind of like kind of perpetually wet ponytail.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yeah, yeah, just like a greasy as ponytail.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
It doesn't really like flare out, it's just stuck together
a little bit like a pig's tail.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
People magsy.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
I also just like this detail from the article because
it was the late seventies and they said the gossipis
claimed that Piggy might be pregnant or had a drinking problem,
or perhaps a coke addiction, because certainly she has the
equipment to be snorting something I do just like the
coke was a fun drug back then. Like they're just like, yeah,

(40:41):
we're all doing it. Wouldn't it be cool to snort
choke with giant pig nostrils?

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Oh my yeahs?

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Do you think if your people pulling out that puppet
like at parties and being like, yo, dude, let's fucking
do a line with Miss Piggy.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
They're like, guys, I really shouldn't.

Speaker 4 (40:56):
It's really for performances to like, come on, dude, out
of the case, let's do a couple of rails with
Miss Piggy.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
She I feel like she she would do it as
in the seventies, she did it as a party trick parties.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
Frank Oz was definitely doing it, like oh.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
I like and I don't And is that a fun
energy to bring? I feel like it sounds fun? But
when it actually happened, you're like, yeah, man, this is
not good. We got to get home.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
And it's after as the highs wearing off, You're like, damn,
what the fuck am I doing? Man?

Speaker 2 (41:28):
You can't do a pig's Man, I'm looking at the
Muffet Wiki is unbelievably thorough.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
I just like, yeah, it's got its own It's like Wikipedia,
like it's its own whole universe over there.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
Because I was curious. I'm sure we'll talk about like
how like miss like the Academy Awards, think like the
way that people talk about Miss Piggy's body is so
like charged and but like She never talks about herself
that way, which I love about her. She's like so
confidite and amazing. But there's a whole page on muppet
Wiki this is Miss Piggy's weight, and it's just a

(42:06):
list of hundreds of references. I was like this, who
did this? Who did this? And and can I I
don't know for certain Wikipedia pages. You're like, this is
against God, but but I do appreciate that the all Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
She was introduced to a whole new generation with Muppet Babies.
Did you guys watch Muppet Babies? Was that before your time? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (42:30):
I did babies, missus the miss Piggy. Muppet Baby is
like a little too sexy for me. Yeah, what's going
on there? Did you guys like Muppet Babies? I didn't.
I didn't watch it right now.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
I was like, I mean, I was so. It was
one of the first cartoons I remember watching.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Watch Baby. I remember it.

Speaker 4 (42:51):
And then there was the cartoon I remember there was
like a kind of there's like a reference to Star
Wars and like the opening that I really liked, thought
I was like obsessed with other than that.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, it was the opening is the thing is the
iconic thing, and then Nanny's legs like they had an
overseer who you only saw her like weird greed stockings.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, oh yeah, like Charlie Brown.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Style, right, yeah, yeah, you just saw her like calves
and it was like very mysterious.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
I love that they did that on Cow and Chicken too.
That was like when I really loved Yeah, when it's
just the legs.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
That was a Marvel joint. By the way, Marvel Comics
Animation department technically made the Muppet Babies, so that's.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
The first because it was like the cheap o animation
style of Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Probably they were probably like already making you know, a
Spider Man comic and we're like, what about what about this?

Speaker 2 (43:40):
I think we made the Muppet Sexy Babies.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
There's a lot of weird continuity stuff in there, like
there's a reveal that Statler and Waldorf are the muppets uncles,
but like, I don't I don't think we need to
like get too into continuity because I don't, like, I
think the premise is that, like the Muppets are all actors,
Like this is just a SNL style like thing where
it's like they're just playing different versions of themselves and

(44:06):
you like never know what's real, so you don't have
to like worry too much that Statler and Waldorf for
actually just the worst uncles of all time.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Right, worried?

Speaker 4 (44:16):
Did you worry that Scott Gardner cartoon Tiny Thuppets?

Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yes?

Speaker 8 (44:20):
Oh yes, it was like the brand Brazilian Mummy Babies
when it was called like Cormet and Gonzor.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
Was just called I think it's just a miss woman
or something ship it is.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Miss Picky is probably the best case scenario of like
the missus Lady character, right like there, it really isn't
I can't think of them where because it's like they
try to emulate it a bajillion times or like I
don't know. I always go back to Chuck E cheeselare
as I want to do and they have a missus
Lady car, like you always have to have one girl,

(45:02):
not even because you care so you can make pencil
boxes for girls, right, but miss Piggy, like they just
there was something in that coke that was special. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Uh, Brian, I'm gonna have to ask you to stop
putting pictures of a fozzy bear next to Burt Kreischer
in the in the chat. It's too distracting. They do
both wear brown hats and no shirt.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Well, I don't sell Brian's hard work short. He's finding
exact poses that are identical. It's like, it's alarming, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Bert Krasers just modeled his career off Fozzy Wild.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
No fucking I have a backstory, man, gotta have a backstory.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
So Miss Piggy is seen as an lgbt Q plus icon,
which is wild because it started from a place where
Frank and and well, we'll get to a quote from
Marlon Brando that I think will kind of put some
of this into context. But he once told reporters about
how Piggy takes over and when he talks about her,

(46:10):
he will become her, using her voice and even adopting
her personality, and then added, but let's get it straight
that I'm straight. It's like, okay, all right, man.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
Cool, Okay. He keeps telling on himself.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
I know, I know other artists were, like, I sculpted
the David out of appreciation for the human body. Just
because I sent three weeks on the Dick doesn't mean
I'm not straight.

Speaker 4 (46:35):
Yeah, look at his biceps though, Look at those things, man, sick, right, sick.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
I'm straight, a straight guy, could do.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Got to be straight, understand, dude, dick like that.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
After he became a successful film director, he was still
associated with Miss Piggy. When he directed the two thousand
and one crime movie The Score, an annoyed Marlon Brando
would reportedly only refer to the director as miss Piggy. Okay,
that's brutal, just like the seventies. Just any anyone who
was like famous in the seventies was just like broken

(47:09):
by toxic masculinity. It's just like never recovered.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
That's yeah, that's a bummer. Yeah, man, I I don't
I don't know. Maybe there's something I don't know very
much about Marlon Brando, and it's kind of like none
of my business. When I see Marlon Brando, I'm like.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
We're good here.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
It's not for me. That's not really for me.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
I don't need to know about all of that, especially
if he's bullying Frank Gaws to the Frank Aus has
to respond in a toxic way to the world, right exactly.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
So yeah, two thousand and one, Brando, Dude, that's like, oh,
that's like a.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Yeah, that's doctor Moreau. Doctor you're talking.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
That's tough.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
But Eric Johnson, who's been playing Piggy since I stepped
way from the part in two thousand, said in an
interview that Piggy is a drag act. It's where some
of the comedy comes from. He did not go on
to clarify I've slept with like twenty three women of
them have said, I'm like, good, it sucks. But he
cited Oz's early description of Piggy as a truck driver

(48:18):
in a woman's body, and then argued that the character
breaks down genderbearers, which I think is.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Right, all right, Eric, nice.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Eric. People have also pointed out that Chapel Roone seems
to pull a lot from drag and also Miss Piggy,
Like there are a couple side by side pictures where
it's like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
She might have literally Miss Piggy style.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Man, Yeah, it's perfect. Miss Piggy also has a wide
variety of wigs. Yeah, she's just she's maximal.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
She loves animal print, you know.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
But yeah, that that be kind rewind video it's called
Miss Piggy. Camp and the Death of the Movie Star
has a really good quote from a camp theorist talking
about Camp as this like pure surface level celebration of
like the kind of hoops we have to jump through
to live our lives. They say, to appreciate camp and
things or persons is to perceive the notion of life

(49:15):
as theater being versus role playing reality and appearance, which
I think is like kind of a perfect frame to
think of Miss Piggy and kind of the Muppets through. Yeah, yeah,
it's a good video. Miss Piggy as a feminist icon.

(49:41):
That's just you know, a lot of people talking about
body positivity role model who subverts, Like the original punchline
of her origin is like a you know, lipstick on
a pig like that sort of thing. But she just
like I didn't even I hadn't ever even thought about
that being the original joke until somebody like reading about

(50:01):
the origin as like, oh, yeah, I get it. But
it's like no, she's just like so glamorous that like
you don't even. She just like owns it. She's completely confident.
I feel like you don't like have that initial like
she's ugly but pretty type thing. It's just like she's
her own character, that extensive backstory.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
I also like that, like I guess the Miss Piggy
era I most associate her with, and I like the
best is that her like kind of nineties Miss Piggy
where she's kind of like girl boss single a little
bit like she's she's a career girl, and she's also
like a ruthless kind of quite evil career girl. And

(50:44):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Which one is that? What is that in the ruthless?

Speaker 2 (50:49):
I feel like, I mean most of them I'm thinking of.
I think it's maybe a Muppets take Manhattan where she's
really rallying for parts and she'll like lie to get parts.
She just like she's you know, she's a diva, she's
an Yeah, And I like that, Yeah, it would be
it would have been easy to keep the focus on
her like obsession with Kermit, which like it always does.

(51:10):
But I feel like her her passions of Kermit and uh,
you know, being famous are like in locksteps, So it's
like almost weird that she had, Like they haven't like
adapted her to the modern era very frequently. I guess
maybe this color scull and Miss.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Piggy, yeah written by who made o Mary for people
who aren't familiar, but the next logical step, Yeah, Like
I could really like get into brilliant dark shad.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
Which is what if it's a dust bowl. It's like,
I look, I went to the source, and I just
had to adapt this.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Frank Gus in fact doubled down when I brought up
the Stanoslavski and.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Brief Jennifer Lawrence did say that the Miss Pig movie
is fucked up and really dark. Oh wow, maybe it
is just a straight up adaptation, all right, but uh yeah,
I feel like this, like one of the things driving
her career throughout has been just the will they won't

(52:16):
they of Kermit the Frog, Like there was a more
recent I forget when it was, but I remember it
hitting the news cycle when they like broke up and
everybody was like, oh, like Piggy and Kermit broke up.
That was the second time they had tried that, and
the first time they did it was actually like called
off because like they like, to your point, they were

(52:39):
going to break up. She was going to be single
throughout the nineties, and it was there was like this
whole book planned, and then Jim Henson died like that week,
and so they just like quietly like pulled back on it.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
I said, she's been through enough to see her We
can't put her through a breakup.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
Oh, because because he Henson was doing Kermit's voice up
until he passed away.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
Basically, yeah, he.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Had been so his last TV appearance was on the
Arsenio Hall Show in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
So funny that there was like seriously, yeah, we got
Kermit the Frog on to Night Godless.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
And he was like not feeling well at that and
then he was refusing to like take time off and
then so I didn't realize. I thought he died of
cancer or something. He died of like basically strep throat
and just like not getting it taken care of.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
God.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yeah, it's like a really crazy like a bacterial infection
that just like got worse and worse. And he was
at that time talking to Disney about selling, you know,
the Muppets to Disney and Frank Oz this is frank
Oz's quote on it. The Disney deal is probably what
killed Jim. It made him sick.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Oh wow, oh.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Yeah, good good for him for saying, Man, I guess
I mean because Disney is I went to my for
my last birthday. My boyfriend brought me to the Henson
studio like dirty Puppet night. Have you guys, ever been, No,
I've yeah, yeah, it's cool. It's like Brian Henson gives

(54:22):
the audience a tour of the studio beforehand, and then
it's like puppet improv. Basically, it's the it's the best
way to see improv if you absolutely have to is
puppet improv. But it was. It was really cool. But
I don't even know if they're still at that studio
or they won't be for much longer because Disney has
like sort of slowly dismantled. I hope maybe the Miss

(54:45):
Piggy movie will save it, but it seemed like they
were gonna have to leave the studio and you know,
go to sort of more standard corporate offices, which such
I have to imagine his Disney's fault.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
Yeah, yeah, because it's like they were also like you
could like lease office base out of there, like I
remember in the last few years, like yeah, because.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
The place on Librea right like that.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything Kermit Yeah yeah, yeah, there was
like see a little Kermit statue out front.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
I remember going like back in the day, like meetings
with startups like that were like like a startup was
based back.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
There, like you Richard the Hinson Studios and it was
at that company excess more than seven.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
No, they shouldn't have to do.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
Part of me felt really bummed out that. I was like, what,
but you got like I'm looking at the original Dark
Crystal Puppets in here, and you guys are fucking talking
about some dumb streaming platform that's not gonna do fuck.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
They're like, yeah, the frogs broke cookie.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
You do you do man, and they can do whatever
you want, guys, Yeah you want watch this.

Speaker 4 (55:44):
I can ash on his head right now. Won't do shit.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
But yeah. In nineteen ninety, they appeared on The Today
Show announced they were officially breaking up. This is part
of a publicity stunt called the Pig of the Nineties
that where she was going to like be an independent woman.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
And then she's gonna girl boss it up.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Yeah, she was gonna girl boss it up and then
And that was in May, and just days later, Jim
Henson died of Yeah. It's a crazy sort like he
literally just worked himself to like he wouldn't He like
woke up at two am in the morning and was
like I can't breathe and was like coughing up blood
and he was like, but I don't want to cancel
work tomorrow, so I don't know, for as a warning

(56:28):
to anybody, like, don't don't work that hard.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah alone.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
This is dark, but it would be funny if frank
Oz was like, yeah, I think it was the breakup that.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
I didn't believe in love. After that he just got.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
Find this new new direction with Miss Piggy, right that
we're thinking about.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
Yeah, He's like.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
You could just really affected him, and.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
He really wanted to say something, but he could.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
It was just like a plot, an idea that he
didn't like a at work, so he like blames it.
He's like, yeah, I don't know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
I killed Jim. What do you guys think? Huh right,
the shit off?

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Maybe I'll pitch that next time.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
I will watch basically like any like of the bajilion
documentaries that there are about Jim Henson, and anytime I
see even a shred of his like televised funeral services,
I started bawling. It's so sad.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
I was so upset. That was like one of the
first celebrity deaths I remember as a kid.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Did you guys know that, like that's how he died?
That it was I thought you just cancer. Yeah, im
his cancer because he wasn't that old, right, was he
in his like fifty or something? Yeah, I think, god.

Speaker 4 (57:45):
Yeah, but yeah, I just remember I was so deaf
because I just felt like he was the Muppets truly,
even like as a kid, I knew they were fucking puppets,
but I still could connect that, like all things were
possible through his work and the other people he worked with.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
But yeah, it's just like not that they wouldn't have
been anyways, but it like almost makes it necessary for
kids to have them up. It's at the funeral, so
you know that they're like still, oh my god, Oh
it's so sad man.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
They're laying flowers on this.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
It's too much, so much. I like, no, I've never
been as sad. Well that's not fair, but like I've
never been that sad at a funeral as I am
watching like low res clips.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
Right right from nineteen nineties.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
So sad.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Yeah, So I do feel like that does like get
a kind of one of the things that I think
is truly unique about them, which is the way that
they exist both in reality and in like the fact
that they were at King Charles's coronation I feel like
they're the only fictional characters who can like show up
to real events. Like they occupy a weird space between

(58:56):
worlds for everybody. Like you couldn't just have like, like
Deadpool show up at the royal wedding and we've got
Deadpool here, you know that.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
The coronation, I mean a fascinator on.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
I feel like that they because like other characters I guess,
do show up places, but it always you can always
tell it's an ad And then when the Muppet Show, you're.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
Like, oh, like, oh, the Muppets are there exactly. Yeah,
You're like, damn, oh they were in town.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
When uh so Edgar Edgar Bergen Candice Burger from Then
in Black died, you know, when Edgar Bergen, Cannisbergen's father,
who was a famous like puppeteer ventriloquist, died. His widow
and candisberg And asked Jim Henson and Kermit to like
speak at his funeral, and they said, Jim Henson said,

(59:50):
there seems to be something strange about having a puppet
in this situation, and Kermit said, have never appeared at
a funeral before, And then Henson was like, but the
family asked, I would bring Kermit and Charlie would have
liked it. He said about like his Charlie and Mortimer
were his two characters, and like everybody just like burst
into tears because they realized like Charlie and Mortimer were

(01:00:12):
gone like at that home.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Wow. But yeah, it's sad.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Yeah, it's just kind of this weird like you know,
puppets have been like a thing, and like they they
hold the like the muppets hold this like load bearing
place in popular culture because they're like our main muppets
are our main puppets, you know, right, Like there's a
quote from Bonnie Erickson where she's saying they've been a
tradition across the world for thousands of years as a

(01:00:39):
form of storytelling, but until recently, they haven't been appreciated
in the United States. We owe allot of that to
Jim Henson's vision, and so like there's something like sort
of magical about puppets that like these being the main
pop culture puppets like allows them to just like occupy
this weird space where we're like, are Piggy and Kermit

(01:01:01):
gonna like get together together at any given time?

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Right? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
And now, Jamie I bet you'd feel terrible if you
read that. I've read that Fozzy odd after a bad
open mic gig or something. Wouldn't you what did you
just do it?

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Look? You know my dark Fozzy movie is Fozzy's in
aa uh and like, who's Fozzy's sponsor? I do feel
like Fozzy can't drink anymore?

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Yeah, I can't drink. I feel like almost might be sponsors. Yes,
almost Dad, he's almost dad like kind of has like
old you know, musician vibe a lot of ship.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
I was drinking hand doing heroin. They're like, oh fuck,
all right, man, all right, almost dad.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Yeah, almost Dad is seeing ship. You don't just raise
a kid like that like Elmo.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
Yeah, yeah, it almost makes a lot of sense. And
you see the dad, You're like, oh okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Yeah, yeah, I mean like the grand context Almo. Actually
it comes into sharp focus.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
I do wonder like what the drug seems like with
the Muppets, you know, just generally.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I mean like the band, the band has to Oh yeah,
that is I love the band so much.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
Yeah, I don't think they're doing intravenous drugs, but a
lot of.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Acid in the band I'd have to assume, right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's keep it fun. They keep it fun.

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
Yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
Stuff that just kind of makes them more muppetty if.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
That's a.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Yeah, something makes you like taste colors?

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Nothing, I will say just the last thing I have
about Miss Piggies. I feel like to encapsulate the weird.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
Place that she occupies.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
I don't think any other children's character could have simulated
an orgasm.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Did you have you guys?

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Do you remember that thing where she was like doing
a parody of when Harry Sally with Billy Crystal?

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Oh oh no, wait wait did that happen?

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
They It was the early nineties and she did it
as like a fake sneeze, but she really like it
was a long time and it was on the Disney Channel.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Too, Yeah, and on Muppets tonight.

Speaker 6 (01:03:18):
Yeah, so kissing over what happened with your hot bit
last night?

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
Oh, Skelly was a disaster.

Speaker 7 (01:03:26):
She canceled.

Speaker 6 (01:03:26):
She had a bad cold.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
Are you sure she had a cold, Yes, I'm sure
she had a curl.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
I heard a sneeze twice.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
Even taste amusing more.

Speaker 7 (01:03:41):
Did you ever think she may have faked the sneeze
to get out of the date with you?

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Take the snave no way ticket.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Most women, at one time or another have faked a sneeze.

Speaker 8 (01:03:54):
Take it out of a date?

Speaker 6 (01:03:56):
Really well, excuse him, moa, miss I'm jealous of babe.
You don't think that I can tell the difference between
a real sneeze and a fake sneeze.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
So good killing it with the performance.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
Oh my god, that's not how people sneeze.

Speaker 7 (01:04:20):
Oh yo, Channel.

Speaker 5 (01:04:31):
No, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
God, this is your twit is.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
I love the Disney Channel logo just hanging out down yeh.

Speaker 7 (01:04:54):
Wow, wait all have what having lets Peppa?

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
That was when you said it was a fake sneeze.
I'm like, okay, they'll play with it. I didn't expect
her to be daggering the table like that on her feet,
little thing she was pumping.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Even a part where like Billy Crystal starts like doing
a weird thing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:27):
What do you do?

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Stop that man gets so weird about miss Piggy, I
mean weird about Miss piggy ciscal thing. This ciscal thing
really says it all. Where he's like, oh, she's so amazing,
she's and did you see her legs? And you're like,
there's there there's the line. I remember I never watched it,

(01:05:50):
but I'm always like one small illness away from watching.
Do you ever Lady Gaga and the Muppets did like
special together. It was like maybe ten years ago, but
Lady Gaga and the Muppets did a big thing together
and I never saw it, but I feel like she
and Miss Piggy must have really been vibing, because now

(01:06:10):
the Brina Carpenter is going to be in a Muppet special.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
Wow, And I love it was a holiday spectacular, is
what they did. Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Oh yes, twenty thirteen with the Gosh twenty thirteen with
guest stars Joseph Gordon Levitt. Of course he's not. He's
not fucking like that these days. I mean, Jason Siegel
briefly had custody of the Muppets and then he had
to give them back, and that's that's for the best.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
Probably, that's true. That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
That was a wild time when we were just like,
let's see what Jason Siegel does with it. It's like, oh,
just have him and a new Muppet he made up
be on screen.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Yeah, the new Muppet, Like, what the fuck was that that?
But the songs were great, the sounds.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
Were really good. I thought that movie was like pretty
fun and the and the music was good.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
He just didn't need the new guy.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
No, what was his name, Walter? They didn't even give
him a cool mann.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
I don't know Walter, I work in it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
What the Miss Piggy, Kermit, the Frog and Walter, which
I guess was kind of the point. But that point
that sucks, all right? Any anything else about Miss Piggy
you guys want to talk about before we get out
of here.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
No, I was just I think before the recording, I
was just saying, it's funny that how how much of
a cultural mainstay Miss Piggy is because we had like
Donald Trump calling people piggy. There's like TikTok videos I'm
seeing talking about Miss Piggy not being in the Epstein files.
And then there was a story about the woman who

(01:07:51):
allegedly hit a child on a plane because the child
called her miss Peggy.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
Couldn't have been the first time a child has called her.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
A Maryland woman is facing charges after police in Florida
said she hit a child who made fun of her
on a flight from Orlando.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
Holy shit, that she slammed the child's head into the.

Speaker 8 (01:08:08):
Window of the plane for corner Miss Oh Yeah, I'm
to say, a lot of a lot of energy.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
A legacy you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Can look like anything. A legacy you can look like yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm just happy that, Like I mean, it's it's like
the fact that kids still know who she is, even
though the Muppets haven't really like put out a successful
project in like fifteen years. Yeah, for their whole lives
is like crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
You got to be like, I mean, it's the same
way like I show my kid that stuff because I'm like, yeah,
you're gonna love this bullshit.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
I love these freaky fucking Muppets. You're gonna love them too, Yeah,
And they do, and they fucking do.

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
Like it's it's like it feels like one of the
few things of like I've tried to show my son,
like other shit like I thought was cool from my child,
and he's like this shit like you can just tell.
I mean, he's like not even three yet, but it's
very clear when something captivates him or not. And I
showed him the Muppet Christmas Carol. His attention was there
the entire time. I could not believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
And A Man of Taste, A Man of Taste, that's
the best Christmas movie I think it is like truly
my favorite Christmas.

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
He loves Michael Kine. He loves Michael k.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Jamie, Where can people find you? Follow you all that
good stuff?

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
You can find me on the Bechtel Cast every week
every Thursday from now till the end of time. Mark
my words. Caitlyn Toronto and I are gonna cover movies
from an intersexual feminist perspective and then mostly I think
Instagram Jamie christ Superstar. Yeah, I've been hosting as much.

(01:09:46):
I'm starting to feel too healthy, So maybe I'll start.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
You got to get back in there.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
I gotta get call you back, let it summon you
back into the pit miles.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
Where can people find you?

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Everywhere?

Speaker 7 (01:09:58):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Perfect? Right?

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
All right, that's it? Sorry not to stick around.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
University, Yeah, university.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Yeah, I think it comes out on Christmas or Christmas Eve?

Speaker 4 (01:10:13):
Nine?

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Long have we been doing this for that many years?

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Hasn't gotten any better? And and this year is not
going to be different. Wow, just keeps getting longer. X
Santa U x X is going to be God.

Speaker 4 (01:10:30):
You're gonna do like a live performance like the Disney Theater,
the Disney Hall or something.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
I've started to apply for grants because we got it.
We gotta get this in the Dolby. We gotta get
it in the Dolby, I think, or at least Gromans.
We gotta get Gromans.

Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's easy. That's easy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
We'll figure it out.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
We'll do the montalband easy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
I'd even take the roof, come on, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
I definitely take the Montalban roof. It's beautiful up there. Anyway.
Stay tuned, Stay tuned.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Stay tuned. Stick around for the No No No notebook
dump where I get to stuff that I didn't get
to in the episode. And bye bye bye. All right,
that was our episode. Always great to see Jamie loftus.
This is the No No notebook dump where I get

(01:11:20):
to stuff that I didn't get to in the main
episode that I wanted to. On the subject to Bonnie
ericson Miss Piggy's Designer, this has nothing to do with
Miss Piggy, so I didn't bring it up in our conversation,
but a quick anecdote that I discovered during research that
my brain couldn't put down, so I wanted to pass
it along to your brain, like the Supernatural std from

(01:11:42):
It follows, So Bonnie Erickson this accomplished designer. She's created
Miss Piggy and the Philly Fanatic, and she gets asked
to design the mascot for the biggest sports franchise in
the world. I think the New York Yankees. I think
it's them or the Dallas Cowboys, but you know they're
near the top. And so she creates this large, pinstriped

(01:12:04):
bird like creature with a mustache. The mustache is designed
to look like the most beloved Yankee on the team
at the time, maybe of the decade of the seventies,
Yankees catcher Thurman Munson. He got a big mustache. Bird
has a big mustache. Win win. So, as his debut
as Dandy the Pinstriped Bird's debut is approaching, two things happen.

(01:12:28):
I'm gonna pull from the Wikipedia here Bonnie Erickson's Wikipedia
on July tenth, nineteen seventy nine, the San Diego Chicken,
who was then working for the Seattle Mariners. Apparently mascots
can be like kind of free agents and move between teams,
which I didn't realize, But so the San Diego Chicken
put a hex on Yankees pitcher Ron Gidry during a

(01:12:49):
game at the Seattle, Kingdom. Yankees outfielder Lou Panella, who
had gone to manage baseball teams, responded by chasing the
mascot and throwing his glove at him. In response, the
Yankees owner George Steinbrenner said that mascots have no place
in baseball, which despite the imminent release of Dandy, who's

(01:13:11):
supposed to be their mascot. So Dandy does in fact
debut in late July nineteen seventy nine, weeks after the
incident in Seattle, and then Thurman Munson dies in a
plane crash on August second, like a week after Dandy
is introduced. Dandy's immediately put on hiatus. They eventually let

(01:13:34):
him come into the stadium, but he's confined to the
upper deck area like the cheap seats, and it doesn't
work out. Ericson and her partner Harrison declined the Yankees'
request to sign another lease. They feel the mascot didn't
receive the necessary support from management. So yeah, you win some,

(01:13:55):
you lose some. She goes on to design plenty of
other mascots, has a bunch of mascots still roaming stadiums
in the NBA. She describes her mascots as all being
gentle anarchists, which fucking rules. But I think that speaks
to the power of puppets and mascots. Back to Miss Piggy,
a couple ideas I wanted to get at but couldn't

(01:14:16):
quite get right in our conversation. One has to do
with Miss Piggy's relationship with Kermit the Frog, which obviously
a very important part of her mythos and iconography. I
didn't spend enough time talking about it in the episode
because it's kind of confusing, like they're together, they get
married in either Muppets Take Manhattan or The Great Muppet

(01:14:40):
Caper I forget, but then like that gets retconned out.
They say the priest was like actually defrocked, like sort
of that, so that is no longer canon. But they're
just always back and forth. They say they're life partners
who live together. Kermit has said they've never been together.
It's the ultimate will they won't they, which makes sense

(01:15:02):
from a narrative perspective, But you know, beyond the obvious
narrative hook, I think there's another way that it's important
to her status as an icon, because so my working
theory of the icons we've covered so far, is that
it helps to have some contradiction at the core of
like our perception of you, you know, like so our
brains can't just like put you down. That's what that's

(01:15:25):
what my brain wants to do. When I'm introduced to
a new famous person or a character, I just want
to put them down. There's too many famous people and characters.
I'm already holding all this shit. I don't want to
I don't want to have to know another one. So
if a character or like a person is what you expect,
if it's like a jock who seems like a cocky dick,

(01:15:47):
or like a nerd who seems like he lacks confidence,
I'm like, I know who that is. I can just
put them away in a drawer and forget about them.
But so all of these characters so far, or you know,
real people with Einstein who become iconic, have something unexpected,
like some contradiction. So with Einstein, a super genius who

(01:16:08):
looks sloppy as hell, like can't remember to put his
clothes on before he walks out the door, and we
pretend he was a slow child, because that's important to us.
We want that contradiction He's not like a Benedict Cumberbatch
character who's a genius. He's like an absent spacey is
that guy on something type genius erkle nerd. But he's

(01:16:32):
also extremely confident and unflappable. And then with Miss Piggy,
beyond the central contradiction of like glamorous pig lipstick on
a pig as a businessman like to say, you know,
that joke never even really occurred to me. But the
contradiction that I think is important is that she's a
motivated career woman who can and will beat the shit

(01:16:55):
out of you to like get to the top. She's
also primarily driven by her romantic love of Kermit the Frog,
Like she'll cozy up to a producer to get a role,
but ultimately she just wants to marry this mild mannered,
multi talented absolute ten. But then she'll also just like

(01:17:16):
bail on him repeatedly in order to put her career first.
She's also sweet and sensitive, but a fucking straight up cannibal.
So that's one idea that a contradiction is helpful to
build an icon. And then another idea about why she's
so iconic is where we were when she was introduced
with our relationship to puppetry and just sexual politics at

(01:17:39):
that point in history. I think Miss Piggy stands out
among muppets for some of the reasons we talked about.
She's a superstar in the narrative, but then she reads
as a superstar on screen to the point that she
made Gene Siskel come in his pants, which probably wasn't
that hard to do. But I do think like the
way that she was imbued with this kind of outsized

(01:18:04):
energy that just like leaps off the screen and gives
Gene Siskel a boner? Is she really like gave Frank
Oz an outlet for what turned out to be a
very developed and interesting feminine energy that he wasn't really
allowed to express in any other way. I don't even
know if he knew that he was looking to express it.

(01:18:26):
And people couldn't really get that anywhere else in like
super mainstream culture at the time, and obviously we wanted it.
Look at how people have reacted to the freeing of
drag culture and like the mainstreaming of drag culture. So
Miss Piggy comes along at a time of like toxic
masculinity in the late seventies at a time when frank

(01:18:48):
Oz has to disclaim that he's straight when he's talking
about playing her, and she's just like bursting with the
divine feminine and like could express confidence and body positivity, horniness,
and she could get away with it because she's a puppet,
you know. And again, like puppetry is this ancient alchemical

(01:19:10):
art that wasn't being used so ingeniously and with like
such mainstream success anywhere else. I quoted Bonnie Erickson er
Henson talking about I think they've both talked about how
humans have used puppets for thousands of years in like
religious rituals and healing and witchcraft. Look at how lou

(01:19:30):
Panella reacted to a chicken mascot putting a curse on
their picture. Like you could say he was being an idiot,
but he was also reacting to this ancient, powerful human
connection to this art form. And then Henson comes along
and reconnects these jaded, pop culture drenched minds around the
world with this ancient, deep yearning to watch someone breathe

(01:19:53):
life and fully formed characters into inanimate objects. And also
officially it's kid stuff. People can ssueing mainstream culture don't
have their guards up. So ideas and energy comes through
that they wouldn't usually let through this world of mainstream
culture that was just getting used to the idea of
like strong women let alone.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Drag Act allows through this new.

Speaker 1 (01:20:16):
Dimension of like confident divadom that people weren't ready for,
and it turns out we're deeply ready for at the
same time. All right, that's going to do it. For
the Miss Piggy episode next week. An icon who I
don't think really fits with that conflict at the core
of the icon rule that I just made up. I
think he kind of takes your expectations of the type

(01:20:39):
of person he would be and takes it like thirty
steps further, just like maximalism all all the way down.
We're talking Arnold toward Szenegger. So we have a great
guest for that one. So I will talk to you then,
or I'll talk to you in a few hours if
you listen to the regular episodes of The Daily Zeichast,

(01:21:00):
Bye bye

Speaker 2 (01:21:04):
MHM.