S1 – INTERVIEW 1: Emerson Baker - Unobscured

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's historian interview is with Professor Emerson Baker. He's the
Interim Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies as well as
a professor History over at Salem State University, Yes, that Salem.
He's an award winning author with many works on the
history and archaeology of early New England, including A Storm
of Witchcraft, The Salem Trials and the American Experience, which

(00:24):
was a source for this series, and the Devil of
Great Island, Witchcraft and Conflict in Early New England, a
great book about a stone throwing devil in early colonial
New Hampshire, something I covered on episode ninety four of
my other podcast Lore. He served as an advisor for
PBS TVs American Experience and Colonial House, and has consulted

(00:46):
and appeared in many documentaries on the Salem Witch Trials.
He is a member of the Gallows Hill team who
in two thousand sixteen confirmed the execution site for the
victims of the Salem witch Trials, and he's also co
authored the I Phone iPad app the Salem which Trials.
I had a chance to sit down with Professor Baker
this past summer and we had a fantastic conversation. So

(01:09):
without further delay, Let's get on with the show. This
is the Unobscured Interview series for season one. I'm Aaron Mankey.

(01:51):
So I'm Emerson Baker. I'm interim dean and professor of
History at Salem State University in Salem, Massachusetts. I'm going
to start us off with sort of u uh like
setting the stage kind of question. Sure, Um, can you
give us a brief placement of the Salem Trials in
the context of colonial history? You know, we're we're about

(02:12):
halfway between English settlement and the independence that will come later. Um,
how do the events in this particular era shape the
mindset's attitudes, that practices that we might consider pro to Americans. Sure? Well,
I mean it seems to me that Salem is is
kind of a great colonial American tragedy, right, or one
of several great tragedies, maybe King Phillips were Being being

(02:32):
another one, which which in some ways I believe they're
kind of closely related, and that many of the There's
been many tensions emerging in New England in the seventeenth century,
um the perceived decline of Puritanism, UM, declining church membership, UM,
issues over governance, and the fall of the Charter of
mass Chusetts Bay Colony, where people begin to to doubt

(02:54):
that that the the Puritan experiment is going to survive, right,
that it is under threat, and who could be under
threat from more than anything else, of course, but but
satan right, and and to me, in many ways, it
is a critical turning point in American history. And I'm
not just saying that because my book is in a
series called Pivotal Moments in American History. I genuinely believe
this that the Salem Witch Trials in many ways, um

(03:17):
changed the course of colonial history and uh, and maybe
the very nature of American society to this day. I
read a quote from I don't know if he's late
late nineteenth century early twenty century history and who said
that the Sailor witch Trials was the rock that theocracy,
like the American idea of theocracy was broken upon. Yeah, right,

(03:37):
I I I you know, I don't think it's not like, uh,
the the sort of Puritan state ended with the Salem
witch Trials, um, But I I it's the beginning of
the end. Right. I think Cotton mather In particularly becomes
pretty much completely discredited by his attempt to defend the
Puritan state um, and people begin to think, you know,
maybe it isn't the best idea for the governor's top

(04:00):
issers to be the ministers of the colony, right, And
it it's a it's a gradual split. It's not like
the light switch went off, right. But I think in
many ways it's it's the Puritan witch trials. The Salem
witch Trials are the beginning of the end of of
kind of Puritan Massachusetts, and in some ways really kind
of that that beginning of the end of of of

(04:21):
the New England experiment. And and in particular I think
the the the complete collapse of that ideal of John
Winthrop's of the city upon a hill, right, And if
you realize that Salem, of course was the first settlement
of Massachusetts Bay, and that Winthrop really may have physically
had Salem in mind as the city upon the hill.
To have those high expectations completely dashed, there were people

(04:44):
still living in Salem who would have heard that sermon, right,
they would have been quite old. But to think within
a couple of generations that that that that experiment just
just lay in in shambles. And I think, to me,
that's why that's why we remember Salem is because um
it's it's too horrible a fall from grace for us
to ever forget. And that people in Salem and other

(05:06):
Americans um constantly reminds Salem and ourselves of of what
can happen when you you get complacent about those dreams.
For sure. Obviously witchcraft, accusals, trials, executions, all that. We're
talking about the New World, Europe, England, um. And there's
a lot of different sects of the Christian faith represented

(05:28):
their Catholicism and Anglicanism specifically in Purits in New England
and in Salem in what was a witch? Wow? Well,
I mean it's it's it really goes back to to
the Old Testament really, um, you know as to to
what a witch is, um, it's someone who is in
league with with Satan and draws power powers from Satan

(05:51):
to to harm people or to to harm their possessions. Right,
simply simply put um it And it can be it
can be down in a variety of different ways. It
doesn't have to be what we sort of think of
even in Salem of sort of affliction and and spectral affliction.
It can be um causing uh, storms to wreck crops.

(06:13):
It can be causing uh two cows to dry up
and no longer produce milk. Or yes, it can be
direct harm to people. Right. Obviously, the Massachusetts Bay Colony
was part of the greater British Empire. Um, how connected
was the colony specifically Salem, as you said it was
the first settlement, not Boston, but Salem was so how
connected was it to the global network that made up

(06:34):
that British Empire. So what's really interesting to me is
is actually, UH, Massachusetts joins the British Empire in many
ways only with the new Charter of six with the
arrival of Governor Phipps in Boston in May of sixteen
ninety two amid the witch trials. He's the first royal
governor and Uh, I think in many ways, before his

(06:54):
arrival and before the loss of the of the massa
Chusets Bay Charter in the sixteen eighties, UM, Massachusetts, I
think it considered himself in many ways a law a
part um. They tended to flaunt and ignore as many
of the English laws as possible. And I think part
of the crisis over the Salem witch trials is UH,
this process of being coming a part of the British

(07:16):
imperial system. Now, I don't mean to say that they're
completely isolated, because they're not. And I think the thing
that we tend to we really uh don't realize just
how well connected they were with Europe uh and in
fact throughout the Atlantic world, that there's a vibrant Atlantic
economy that uh it may take as little as four
or five weeks for a ship to arrive from London

(07:37):
if all goes well, and that people are reading the
London newspapers and and things over here, so as they're
they're pretty much in tune what's going on over here.
But that doesn't mean that they're in that sense. Um.
Massachusetts folks, I think, believe themselves as a part of
this Puritan state that was in some ways, yes, we
are Englishmen, we are all Englishmen, um, but we're really

(07:59):
here for other per poses than those other folks. And
this this sort of growing idea of empire, I think
is something that troubles them in some ways. Interesting. Yeah,
they seem to be driven across the Atlantic to do
things their way right, and it's I didn't understand, but
I'm learning that they had free reign to pretty much
do it their way for a very long time, right,
And in fact, actually um realized too that in some

(08:23):
ways Massachusetts becomes its own imperial power in the mid
seventeenth century UM with the problems of course in England
at the time. It's the English Civil Wars are taking
place throughout the sixteen thirties and into the sixteen um
sixteen forties, and what that means is, uh, you have
no one over in England and authority to really sort
of stop the Puritans from in Massachusetts from expanding authority.

(08:45):
They in the sixteen forties they extended their authority to
New Hampshire. In the sixteen fifties they largely take over Maine.
These are Anglican Royalist colonies. But in Massachusetts you have
the Puritan government which is closely allied with Oliver Cromwell
and the the victorious Puritan forces in England, and so
they're they're given pretty much free reign to to dominate

(09:07):
New England. And it's only after the restoration of the
monarchy in sixteen sixty that the Stewards begin to say,
wait a second, we have to reel you back in
here a little bit here. And so it's all it's
a you know what this to me is like Salem
is It's all part of a much larger, more complicated story.
And to me why I find it so fascinating because
I think this time period in the late seventeenth century,

(09:27):
there are so many interesting things going on, and they
all in some ways, uh some of that so many
of them come to a head in the form of
the Salem witch trials. So many people say, well, let's
talk about Salem, but they don't talk about King Philip's
War or the English Civil War, um, and all of
the different factors that are there are all these different
wires that are tripping, that are causing this one thing
that happened. Well, and it's why you call your book

(09:47):
a storm, right, because it is a perfect storm exactly.
I really try to equate it to that other great
Essex County tragedy, the perfect storm right where it takes
a confluence of a number of horrible things come to
together to create which was, you know, um off the chart,
the largest uh witchcraft prosecution in in American history of

(10:08):
you know where you have nineteen people executed, one press
to death, five more die in prison, over a hundred
and sixty people accused, uh and and maybe a lot
more than that. And I think you know, if you
look most other cases, aside from the Hartford outbreak, which
it's leon or in the order of like nine or
ten kind of folks, um, most cases is only one

(10:29):
or two three people that are accused of witchcraft. So
clearly there's something we're going out. But the other hand,
too is in defense of of of of of Salem. Um.
I'm also fasted with the reason I wrote the book
was why are we so fascinated with this? Why Salem?
Because by European standards, Salem, unfortunately is a fly speck.
You know, in the Great Age of witch hunts over
several hundred years in Europe, we know that about a

(10:51):
hundred thousand people were prosecuted and about half of them
were executed for witchcraft. You know, in in in in Cologne, Germany,
there was a tenure witchcraft outbreak from the sixt to
the sixteen thirties where hundreds and hundreds of people lost
their lives. And I've been I don't know if you've
been a clone. It's a beautiful city, but no one
calls it the witch city. So and you know why
is it that that's that Salem, right is the witch city?

(11:13):
So and again to me, I think it's alive. It
has to do with this confluence of of things coming
together in this supposedly utopian Puritan place and um that
we're we're sort of living still living in many ways
in the aftermath of that. Right, absolutely, right. Well, let's
step back just a little bit more for the witchcraft
starts and back to the idea of the of the
British Empire and this global network. Um. Slavery was obviously

(11:37):
part of this. Can you talk about slavery and what
it was like in sixteen nineties New England? Sure? Um,
And slavery is New England's dirty little secret first off, right, Um,
And we know that as early as the as the
sixteen thirties that we have the first sort of documented
evidence of slaves coming into Massachusetts. So not longer after
after the colony starts, slaves come in as well. Um.

(11:59):
And they tend to be they're they're not a large
presence in the in the colony. Um. You know, we
don't have a plantation economy, um, but we do we
do need people to you know, work the docks in
places like you know, in the lumber mills and and
working the working the crops um. They do become sort
of a in some ways almost like a status symbol

(12:21):
for um for the wealthier merchants, I think, and sometimes
even for example um Cotton Mather was given a slave
by Governor Phipps Uh in this case where they referred
to as a Spanish Indian. So we do have we
do have um um African slaves here. There's there are
also Native Americans who have been enslaved, some coming from
the Caribbean UM. Others who are New England Indians who

(12:43):
have been enslaved in King Phillips War, the Peaquald War UM.
So there certainly is a long tradition in in in
New England, as it was in Europe. Of course, of
of us of servitude, of slavery, particularly for people who
are other UM. England in the seventeenth century did not
have a well defined sense of of um race um.

(13:04):
They understand other um. They understand other being for example,
the Irish are other. And frankly there's a debate as
to Native Americans and the Irish. The English and some
way sort of similar to consider them very similar because
they consider them both to be pagan and I apologize,
but I mean this this was the English, particularly the
purit view of Irish Catholics, right, is that these people

(13:26):
are unchurched, the wild Irish um. You know, the Scots
maybe a little bit better because we share the same king,
but there's still a little different from us, um. And
so there's a sort of these orders of magnitude of difference.
And while you would never enslave an Englishman, um boy,
people who are different from us, you know, we will
will have an indentured servant in englishman will serve a

(13:48):
term of service. But people have to be radically different
to be to be enslaved. So we certainly do have
a small percentage of folk here we know in Salem,
particularly in larger ports Salem in Boston um owned by
the leading families who are are slaves by and of
course um a few of these these folks um end

(14:09):
up being involved in the witch trials. So it must
be significant then that when Samuel Parris arrives in town,
well not town, the village, that he has at least
two slaves that we know of inte with him. That
he's he's he seems to be a little bit of
a of a not a pretender, but he has tried
to make a wealthy name for himself. The selling of

(14:30):
the plantation, the buying of businesses in Boston, and then
coming up north to sale him with slaves almost feels
like driving into town in your you know, black five
series BMW. And I don't know if well, okay, I
I have maybe a little different. I think you're right.
I think he's sort of his pretensions. Um, he was raised,
but I was he was raised in the plantation in

(14:51):
Barbados where his uh, he inherits a fortune from his
father and seems to manage to to wipe it out.
We're not sure how if it's through mismanagement or some
people suggests the plantation was destroyed in tornadoes hurricanes. Um,
but I can honestly I consider Samuel Pearis to be
a professional failure. I think he failed that everything he
did at life. Right he he Um, he goes he's

(15:14):
the son of a sugar plant who inherits a plantation
that should have guaranteed him to be wealthy forever. Right.
He goes to Harvard, but after a year or two
he leaves as soon as he hears he's inherited this fortune.
And again you know who are the leaders of Colonia
in New England, those wealthy, respected people, but the Harvard
trained ministers. Right. And then he then he comes leaves
the Barbados and come back, comes back to Boston and

(15:36):
tries to be a merchant. And again the wealthy ruling
elite of Massachusetts, who are the Salem witchcraft judges, They're
all wealthy Boston merchants. Um, he fails at that. He
can't make a living doing that. So I think in
some ways, this guy who never graduated from Harvard, as
far as we can tell, Um, Salem Village is his
last chance of success. And you're right. He comes in

(15:56):
with with slaves, he comes in with pretensions. Um. He
he is in search for that that stable, comfortable life
and that position in society, which I think is really
critical to him. And I think one of the reasons
Salem becomes a tragedy is because Paris realizes this is
his last chance to succeed, and he's not going to
go quietly. He's absolutely it's he's holding on as long

(16:20):
as he can. And of course he lasts in the
town a number of years, even after the witch trials,
when most people are telling him, you know, no, go,
we don't want you here. I think I think he's
obviously as a fellow who's very very much understress, he
clearly feels that he's been attacked by Satan, and he
this is how his political enemies, I think in the
village um become more than political enemies, because clearly anybody

(16:42):
who tries to oppose me in what I'm trying to
do here into establishing the Godly Kingdom in Salem Village
must be in some ways influenced by by Satan, and
that is again part of the part of the tragedy. Right, definitely,
let's switch to law. Sure, how is Massachusetts colone E
law different from English law? Yeah, okay, well we're trying

(17:04):
to We'll try to explain this without boring too many
people getting too in much detail because it's complicated. Um,
Massachusetts law is based largely on English common law. But again,
this whole idea of massa chuse is not being part
of the British Empire. Up until Massachusetts receives its second
Charter in s they are allowed to develop whatever laws

(17:25):
they want with anyone paying too much attention. But when
they get the new charter and Phipps arrives with it
in May of six. It very specifically says that Massachusetts,
all of massa Chusetts laws are now invalid and um
they have to immediately write a new set of laws
which shall shall be in alignment with really and shall
not be repugnant with the laws of England, that they'll

(17:47):
conform with English common law. And so again this is
part of that confluence of this. Uh, there's only really
one year in Massachusetts history where in many ways it
doesn't have a full set of of legal books, it
doesn't have a working system of courts, because they have
to recreate a whole justice system as well too. Instead,
they're kind of relying on English common law and in

(18:10):
some degrees I think making it up as they go.
And here in lies part of the tragedy. Right, So
is this why when um, on that first day either
the first marcher end of February, when those when those
four men walk to sale in town and they stand
before Hawthorne and Corwyn and they accused for the first time,
they don't pay that accusational fee like that the deposit

(18:32):
that you're supposed to make, is that sort of because
we're in a no rule zone at this point. It's well,
I think that's part of it. I think there is,
um there are a number of legal irregularities that take
place in Salem in six two, and I think and
part of them, uh, for example, that it's the only
time in I think in American history where it is
actually legal to two sees the assets of of someone

(18:55):
who's been accused of felony. Right. Some of it is,
I think is the is the lack of an establed
set of law, and things are kind of murky. I
also think too, though, what part of it is is
that there is such an assumption of guilt in unlike
anything else, and that that makes people take shortcuts. Um. Right. Normally,
you if you you would have to postpond if you

(19:18):
were charging someone with with a felony like that um
to create you know, basically what today would call a
nuisance suit, right, or to essentially maybe charge persons for
political purposes or a way to get back at them. Um.
But that that that uh and then if if the
case wasn't proven, you'd forfeit your bond. Um. That was
that was would have been a substantial inducement to not

(19:38):
accuse someone flippantly of a of a high crime, right, Um,
But I honestly think too if you, um, I think
the answer in some degrees comes that if if you again,
if you look at this sort of building storm cloud. Um,
whereby six nine two, um, the judges in Massachusetts the
leaders of the colony, because these also not only the
your your judges, they're also your wealthiest merchant. They're also

(20:01):
the members of the Governor's council. They have been appointed
to their offices in the charter by the king. Um.
They they know that Satan is in their presence, and
they've seen that by what's been going on for the
past few years, this confluence of horrible things, of of
the worst what we now recognize the worst weather of
the Little Ice Age, a terrible war that's gone badly
with the French against the French, and the Native Americans,

(20:22):
the the the the downfall of puritanism, with that perceived
downfall of puritanism. Um, I think in two they know
they know the witchcraft is here, and really the judges
realized that their job is to round up the witches
and and take care of them. You know, I think
that the judges are an interesting group because um, over
half of them had attended Harvard, and Harvard is supposed

(20:45):
to be where you go to become a minister. So
as young men, they believe that their fate, that God's
plan for them, was to make them Puritan ministers. Yet
somehow along the way they'd straight from that path and
instead found themselves to be the wealthiest, most privileged members
of the call any And I'm I don't mean that
with too much chest because I think it probably seriously

(21:06):
nod at them because they were all very developed Puritans,
and they wondered, I think they wondered what that failing was.
Why God had changed this path to a path that admittedly,
you know, it was pretty comfortably most of us would enjoy, right,
But why? And I think in sixt ninety two they
found their answer, uh, and that was that in SEO,
the ministers could not save the colony, but the judges could,

(21:27):
and this was God's ordained plan, was to put them
in a position where they could save the colony. And
I think it goes back if you look at those
the next day after those first charges, when they're when
they're when they're bringing uh, the three the three accused
Titeba and and Sarah Osborne and and Goody good to account.

(21:50):
The first questions they ask by these guys who have
been most of them had been judges in court cases
for many years where in English justice it's a pretty
fair system was and still is now. Right. The first
question these judges, experienced judges face is how long have
you been in league with Satan? Why do you hurt
these children? Um? And and they might as well ask

(22:11):
and when did you stop beating your husband? Right? Um,
there's a presumption of guilt there. And if you realize
that many of these judges on the witchcraft panel had
actually been involved in witchcraft cases before, um that had
not convicted people. Um. As recently as four years earlier
in sight, some of these fellows had been involved in
a witchcraft case in Boston where when the woman pled

(22:33):
guilty of witchcraft, the judges would not accept the verdict
until a panel of doctors and physicians had interviewed her
to make sure that she was of sane mind. So
you had that kind of rejection of the notion of
people being guilty of witchcraft in sixteen nine two. They
don't have that compunction at all. They're trying to force

(22:55):
testimony out and uh and and conviction out because essentially
they realized, look at we know Satan's here. Our job
is to find out who the witches are and to
deal with them. Right. One of those men is John Hawthorne. Yes,
but we in writing the first episode, I wanted to
start with William Hawthorne, his father. And this is a man,

(23:18):
William Hawthorne, who contributed to the forming of a lot
of those Massachusetts Bay laws. Right. Yeah, he was and
at the time was living in Salem Village. Think about that. Oh,
he didn't live in the town. He came into that.
But I'm saying originally his family lived out on Hawthorne Hill.
That's where John Hay Hawthorne or Haythorne would have been born. Actually,
And it's only what like in the sixties sixties or

(23:40):
so when they do move in, because what happens is
Salem becomes this the mercantile center, and were at the
beginning of that division of Salem Town in Salem Village
that then many ways, boy or and this bomb made
made kind of famous, right um. And and William and
his son John going to business together at a young age.
For John you have William Hawthorne as sort of this
local respected figure and the laws go away. You're in

(24:04):
this this window of time where it's it's sort of
let's just protect the Puritan ideal here. And John is
a judge, so I get that he feels this desire
to protect the Puritan mission that there are. But do
you feel like from the other side that the community
looks to him in these moments and says, you're John

(24:24):
Hawthorne can help us through this. I think that's equally
true of of the other judges as well, because they
are the interesting group, right. I mean, if you, um,
if you look at the nine, um, most of them
again are very experienced and long standing, most of the
members of the second generation. UM you in that you

(24:45):
also have UM Bartholo mc gudney. Again, he's the colonel,
he's the second generation merchant. He's a physician. He's the
colonel in charge and command of the Essex County Militia. UM.
You know you you you have UM Jonathan Corwin, who
again UM Haythorns and Corwin's for for two generations. The
fathers had been you know, served in the legislature. Together

(25:07):
they had helped make Salem what it was as this
as this this bustling, shiny seaport, and and they had
been the family traditions of militia officers. By the way,
William Haythorn owned through the Peaquot War, actually owned own
Native American slaves. But just so you know, so there's
a history there because all these people who are military

(25:27):
leaders at the time and government leaders during the time
of the Peaquot War were given We're given Peaquats as slaves.
So you mentioned slaves earlier. I just well, I think
that falls into the that falls into the idea of
the other as well that you mentioned before. I mean, um,
Haythorn was was known to abuse and persecute Quakers, anybody
who wasn't Puritan. Yeah, and you see that that that

(25:49):
long history of Salem, of this that tortured quite literally
tortured relationship with Quakers. Because again, if you're if you're
not one of us, if you're not a Puritan, then
then you're against us. And one of the point is
what that means is is that you are are are
stopping really the the creation of this godly community of
the city upon the hill, right, and that the goal

(26:11):
of course this, I mean, it sounds wonderful. The parance
want to come to create this religious experiment. And if
you read the Salem Charter, the original Salem Charter of six,
it's only a couple of sentences long and basically says
we want to come here and walk hand in hand
with each other and with God and fellowship and and
this is supposed to be their whole legal code. Right. Um.
After Roger Williams is banished from Salem as minister because

(26:32):
where he was the minister here. Everyone seems to think
he was in Boston, but he was here, and and
all the troubles with the government here. After that they
rewrite the Salem Covenant, and they go on for pages
about thou shalt not and thou shalt right. Um. I
think um, they were very much concerned of trying to
maintain that orthodoxy right, and people good Puritan leaders like
Haythorn and Corwin and Getney and and and and the

(26:56):
Stounton of course as the leader of the court, Uh
and and and Samuel Sewul, all of them are this
is their goal is to be um, the leaders of
creating this Puritan state. And in fact is Uh two
years before the witch trials in many of these men,
as members of the Governor's Council had passed emotion to
to create UH had a day of fasting and and

(27:19):
and public reformation and a call for public reformation UM,
which basically means UH. They're very specifically say that you
know there's going to be in short hand, there's gonna
be less less less singing and dancing and drinking and
more back in the meeting house. And kids will be
in schools and they'll be reading the Bible, because that's
why we created schools. UM. And it's again you can

(27:42):
imagine talking about division of shure to state. Imagine how
that would go over in Massachusetts of the legislature tried
to do that today. But these people were all afraid
that that that that that order that they've been seeking,
that Puritan state that they've been trying to create, was
was was was just in danger of collapse, and that
they had to do something. UM. And they actually wrote
this order that was proclaimed and read from every pulpit
in the colony UM in sixteen ninety. Context is key, right,

(28:07):
So you can't answer a question in isolation, and you
have to reference this well, I mean Honestly, I'm not
trying to put plugs in for my book, but that's
what the reason one of the I wrote the book
for a couple of reasons, and one was because everything
I'm having taught in Salem for over twenty years, the
things I was reading about in the books and what
I was actually learning didn't They didn't fit one thing.

(28:28):
But also too, I realized that so many you can't
look at Salem as an isolated incident into you have
to look at in the broader history of Salem's history,
from the Native American village to the fishing village of
nam Ki, to its growth as a as a as
a great port, and it's subsequent history to really understand
and put the witch trials in context, and to just

(28:48):
look at Salem village as boy Nisse and Bomb do. Brilliant, brilliant,
maybe still the best book on the Salem witch Trials,
But you can't understand what happened, is Sixto. If you're
only looking at factional as a in Salem village, um,
you you you can't. You can't do it. If you're
only looking at the issues of which is as women
as witches in gender, um you have to pull back

(29:08):
right and get that that view because all these pieces
they all connect, don't they well? And there are pieces
that you wouldn't expect to connect. I can expect well.
I mean, I think the English Civil War in the
decades leading up to the witch trials in Salem, that's
an obvious connection to look at, because it's it's English,
it's it's it's adjacent. But but I think what people

(29:29):
forget about our things like King Philip's War or King
William's War, and what was going on on the frontiers
of New England with the Native Americans with the settlers. Um,
How did things like Kings will King Philip's War um
set the stage for what was happening in Salem. You
have to realize that, Um, the Native Americans were considered

(29:51):
again by the Puritans as being kind of um heathen
pardon me, pagan um. And of course there was an
effort underway by some Puritans like John Elliott to create
sort of English Native American Puritans, right, the praying Indians
um and their their towns established that. But for the
most part, the Purans interesting because they try to convert
people by example. You know, they're not active proselytizers like

(30:13):
the Jesuit missions are up in up in Canada. Um.
So it's never gonna work all that great. Um. But
the bigger problem is um, Native Americans from the beginning
are considered because they're not Christian. Um, they are considered
in some ways to be in league with Satan from
the get go. And and for the most part, where
do they live. They live out in what the Puritans
considered to be the howling wilderness, the frontier um, what

(30:37):
what you could consider a dark corner of Puritan piety.
You know, woods are filled filled with with imps and
evil spirits and demons, and so it's very easy to
equate um. You know, King Phillips War with and with
these frontier warfare, and even more so King Williams War,
which comes really, you know, just like a dozen years

(30:57):
later and takes place mostly on the frontier of Maine
in New Hampshire, in northern Essex County. These these wild
areas filled by Native Americans and to the north their
French Catholic non Puritan folks who are allies of the Pope,
the minions of the Pope. So King Williams were in
particular when it when it breaks out in in Maine

(31:19):
and begins to be seen as this, this this unholy
alliance of the Puritans, horrible enemies right the the the
the non non Catholic UH Native Americans in league with
the French Catholics who are the minions of the Pope.
And you have these forces who are clearly agents of Satan,
who are going to destroy the New England experiment. UM.

(31:42):
So when they lose that when when they lose that war, uh,
it's seen not just as a military defeat, one that
creates tremendous burdens on Salem. Uh. The tax rates go
through the ceiling. Um. Many refugees, people who would come
from Essex County UH and migrated into Maine in the
sixteen eighties are now come back to Salem with nothing

(32:06):
but the clothes on their backs. UM. So you have
this horrible political situation, economic situation. UM. And imagine this
if you're in Salem village or Salem, and all of
a sudden who shows up on your doorstep but your
sister in law and her five hungry kids and all
they have their other clothes on the back and they're
barely escaped from the burning rubble of a town in

(32:28):
Maine and Native American attack, and that oldest kid is
an oath and he eats like a horse, and I
got to find him a job, but he's lazy, and
my taxes are going through the roof. People are terrified
by what's going on. They're upset, and they don't see
an end to it. There's no effort by the English
to really turn the war around. So um it is.

(32:50):
It is a very It's just it's just chaos. And
people really think in many ways that that that the
that there the experiment is coming to an end. Um.
A few years later, Um, the Earl of bellamont In
se who's governor actually after Sir William Phipps, and I
think it's about um. When there's sort of a recess
between King Williams war in Queen Ann's War, which won't

(33:12):
start for a couple more years, he writes a letter
home to his wife and he says, essentially, I may
be home soon because if the Native Americans get their
acts together, they will drive us into the ocean. And
it's funny because you know we we think today of
American exceptionalism and and you know from c Too Shining

(33:33):
Sea and westward progress and manifest destiny. In the six nineties,
people didn't feel that way by the by the time
this war is over. At the end of this a
couple of years after the Salem which trials no one
is no No Europeans are living anywhere in New England UM,
really north of UH, really much north of like Portsmouth,
New Hampshire, UM, and any way to the westward of

(33:55):
current interstate. The rest of it is no man Land.
And they're they're clinging on for dear life. And they've
people who have been living throughout much of the interior
of southern New England. And there are dozens of settlements
in Maine burnt, destroyed, abandoned, and are we going to
be next? And this is the punishment that God is

(34:18):
giving us for not being devout enough and not fulfilling
our mission and our promise to Him. So even this
military disaster against this powerful other right who in previous
times you may have enslaved UH is coming back to
haunt you well. And it's in some ways the news

(34:39):
of that conflict is coming into Salem. But like you said,
the people from that conflict are walking back into Salem.
You know, defeated, broken, with nothing to their name. It's easy.
When I was first reading about Sarah Good, for example,
do you have a typical other, Right, she's the outsider,
she's poor, it's but again it comes from a really wealthy,

(35:02):
respected family. But through life circumstances maybe uh uh, you know,
a husband dying young, right, she and maybe becomes a
little adult distempered exactly, not the local beggar woman. But
I look at the way that they treat her, and
I think to myself, how how un Christian or uncharitable
they were toward her. But when you put it in
the perspective of there are other people coming into town

(35:25):
with nothing left because they're coming from the frontier, because
they're running from these attacks, Um, it's just a constant
hammering away at the people of sale and village exactly.
And but I think I will say, in this and
Sarah Good's case, I think the I think in part
of maybe because I think there's a chance she was
a Quaker. She certainly may have a Quaker sympathies. Um.
Her famous last words, God will give you blood to drink,
Minister Noise says to her on the right on when

(35:47):
when she's facing the noose, she said, you know, basically, come, come, women,
you know you're gonna die, but you might as well
clear your conscience. Um. And and she said, you know,
I I'm no more which than you are. And if
you kill me, God will give you blood to drink.
So take that. And of course, decades later, supposedly Noise
actually died of like a brain aneurysm, where supposedly his

(36:09):
mouth might have filled with blood. We don't know. But
the point is, um on the one hand, and you know,
that's actually a quote out of Revelation UM, where one
of the one of the sort of plagues that will
come to the earth is is the waters will turn
to blood and you'll have to drink it. And um.
So on the one hand, one initially saw that, I thought, wow,
Sarah good, that's pretty good. She's showing she was showing Noise.
You know what, I'm a perfectly good purit and here

(36:31):
I am facing death and I'm going to quote scripture
to you. But it's more complicated than that, because, as
it turns out, back in this early sixteen sixties, when
the Massachusetts government is executing Quakers in Boston for simply
trying to proselytize the faith. Um uh. An englishman writes
a book about your behaviors and tells the magistrates that

(36:51):
they have to stop with your doing or God will
give them blood to drink. So Sarah Good in that
famous quote was actually not just wasn't a biblical quote.
She was actually quoting from a Quaker complaint against the
magistrates of Massachusetts. So there may be a lot of
reasons why Sarah I'm not even I'm not sure she
was a Quaker necessarily, but she certainly lived in that
part of Salem that was susceptible to where the Quakers lived. Um,

(37:15):
so she certainly would have known about them and may
have been uh might well have even a Quaker sympathies.
That's amazing. Well, you know, you think about her first
examination on March one. Where were they asked? They say, um,
you were at you know, Reverend Paris's house and you
were muttering something. Were you muttering? You know? And she says, well,
it was I was reciting the commandment? You know, Well,

(37:38):
what which one? Well, I think it was the Psalms.
Well recite it for us, you know. And she has
trouble with this. It's it's a battle, and it paints
this picture that she's this ungodly, um disinterested, non Puritan
woman in a Puritan village, but at the end of
the day, at the end of her life, right there
at the news. And and again I think it makes
too is the fact that I mean they're there their

(37:59):
reference to her being maybe being adult. And I think
you know, today she may have been a person who
you know, had said some some mental challenges, right, Uh.
And particularly God knows if you're into those certain circumstances,
because she's from a prosperous, wealthy family. And um, I'm
sure it was a very it was very tough life
that she found herself in too, not even own a

(38:19):
own a home. Uh. And to be sort of living
in people's barns, and and and having to go uh,
to be from a proud family, to have to go
to the minister and basically begging for for for a
scrap of food for for you and your your children. Um,
that's that takes a lot out of you, right and
and and and the thing is too, is I mean,
this wasn't that the Puritans were an uncharitable people, because

(38:41):
they because they were, but I think they also this
is the time, you know, um, when there begins to
be more sort of individual responsibility, right, and that's one
of the major thrust of the seventies century, the kind
of the rise of capitalism. And uh, I think that's
one of the general tensions that witchcraft is a part of.
Many scholars are pointed to write that those sorts of
tensions with with an event as big as the Sailorwich stress,

(39:04):
is a lot of different issues that you can become
focused on or you know, build your career on. You
just seem to know a lot about Governor Phipps. Yes, yeah,
I co authored the biography of William Phips, so I
probably no more minut show than just about anybody except
maybe my co author at the wonderful John Reid. Somebody
has to though, right, yes, exactly, can you give us
a short account of the Phipps led raid in six

(39:25):
nine and then how that set the station? So um,
Phipps leads these two failed military expeditions in six Um
he comes back, uh, comes back to the colony, the
first American to be united by the King of England.
No political experience whatsoever. He's a sort of a ship's captain,
sort of uh, you know, Tar Paul and kind of

(39:46):
fellow sea dog. But somehow he gets the authority to
lead to expeditions against to try to turn the tables
in this war. The first one against a Katie works
reasonably well, so much so unfortunately that they say that
works so well. Rather than like four or five ships,
Let's give you a couple of thousand men and like
thirty ships, and you're gonna go invade Canada and make it,

(40:06):
make it an English colony. Um, sounds good in theory. Uh.
And this takes place, and they lead in the fall
of s but for for numerous reasons, a bad weather,
poor planning, um. Frankly, the fortifications of Quebec. It fails disastrously,
and um they lose hundreds of men. They bring back

(40:27):
smallpox with them into the harbor. When they arrive, they
talk about the dead being stacked frozen dead being stacked
on the ships like cordwood, and they lose hundreds of people.
It almost cost Phips his subsequent military career, but again
it was it was. It was as major sort of
blow against the colony. It created financial disaster. It's the

(40:47):
first time that any colony ever had to create paper money.
It pretty much destroyed the Massachusetts economy. And and and
it was one of those preconditions again that created uh
that sort of that that that that called political economic
military disaster that only got worse his time progressed. So
when he arrives in mass Chewst's as the governor, what

(41:08):
would his priorities have been. I mean it sounds I
get a lot of clean up to do. Well, you know,
my my personal my that's that's true. I think my
personal feeling is as I said about William Pipps is
is this is a guy that has he's he's has
no political experience whatsoever. He's pretty good at commanding a ship.
But he's one of these like fortune seekers. And frankly
one if one of his big personal goals would have
been to make as much money off the office as possible. Um.

(41:31):
And he's he's all about personal uh personal profit and
uh an advancement and uh if you can cut a
side deal, he can. When he goes to make a
treaty with the Native Americans up at Pemaquid the end
of the war, UM, he also manages to get the
leading stage him of the of the of Maine Madakawando
to deed him several thousand acres of mainland as a

(41:52):
part of the treaty. So so when you asked me
what his priorities were, I'm sorry if I'm a little
um skeptical. I mean, clearly, here's a guy who's dropped
into a situation. When he arrives, the jails are already
overflowing with with people accused of witchcraft. Now back up
a bit and realize that the afflictions in Salem really
start to take off back in January about the time

(42:18):
that Salem village here's on the same day of two
horrible things, and one is the destruction of York, Maine
in array and the death of the Puritan minister at
the hands of the Native Americans. And about the same
time they learned that Governor Phipps is going to be
arriving with a new charter. This this guy who had
been a military disaster, who only had recently become a
Puritan enjoined the Mathers Church. So people are a little

(42:41):
questioning about, you know. So you know, let's see people
who are rags to richest kind of guy, high risk,
high reward um who have only had a late conversion
to their political cause. Um, who were known for their
course vulgar language. Um. You know, sometimes those people don't
do really good as governors, as leaders of our nation,
of our state. Um. And and Phips I think was

(43:04):
fairly clearly almost immediately out of his depth, right he Um,
he didn't have that experience. He had never served as
a member of the General Court. He was a boy
from Maine, um, which was a kind of an ultimate
kind of outsider, and people kind of questioned who he
was and what he was doing here. And Um, I
think he also too had UM. I think one of

(43:26):
the things he wanted. One of his key goals here
was to make sure that he was wife for an
accused of witchcraft, because in many ways they fit uh
to a t what people thought, which is might be
he had made his fortune as a treasure hunter. Treasures
are traditionally guarded by demons that you have to charm
and you also uh and you also also too to

(43:47):
find a treasure, you you have to use divination to
try to locate it, which again, you know, things like
fortune telling. He'd had his fortune told, so that's kind
of questionable. Meanwhile, his wife is barren. They have no children,
which is are considered to be barren childless right um
she had had a relative up in Maine who had
been accused of witchcraft several decades earlier, and instead of

(44:11):
having natural children in sixteen nine two. Their household consists
of Sir William Phipps, Lady Mary Phipps, and their servants
consisting of yes, a slave probably from from the Caribbean
um and also a Native American girl who fhips from Maine,
who Phips had taken captive on his raid in a

(44:35):
Kadian sixteen ninety who was serving really kind of as
a prisoner of war slash servant, who was the daughter
of that by the way, that Indian statium she bought
he bought the land from um and also a French nobleman.
Was was the granddaughter of a French nobleman. So she
would have been half Native American, half French, all Catholic.
And so you have these these sort of people as

(44:57):
as and think of this as your phone children in
this ungodly household. So to me, you know, it's it's
it's me. It's it's really remarkable that that Lady Mary
Phipps isn't accused of witchcraft until the fall, until October
six and as soon as that happens, Sir William brings
it to an end. And I think that's one of
his key factors throughout the trials is I think he

(45:20):
wanted to be very hard on you know, it's like,
you don't have to be soft on crime if you're
a politician. Right in sixteen in Nies, you don't want
to be soft on witches as a politician. It's bad
for politics. But it's particularly bad because if Phipps had
done the right, thoughtful thing, as many of the ministers,
including Cotton Mother, originally arguing for, you know, be careful
with this spectral evidence and be careful who you appointed judge,

(45:43):
Phipps wasn't in a political position to do that. If
he wasn't fully behind the witch trials, I think he
knew that sooner or later people were gonna start saying, so,
Sir William, why are you being so soft on witches?
Could it have anything to do with though maybe some
members of your family, how out the fact that both
you and your wife's family are we're in the parish

(46:05):
parishioners are Reverend George Burrows up in Falmouth Maine. You know,
George Burrows, the ringleader the the of of of of
Satan on earth here in Massachusetts. I mean that it's
just goes on and on the potential connections, and I
think I think Phipps had to be um Phipps could
not come out against the witch trials until it became
clear when his wife and the wife of Increased Mather

(46:27):
were accused that uh, that it was clearly not all
these people could be witches? Right? How could we have
the best people of the colony. How could we have
all of these ministers, How could we all have all
the all the relatives of ministers, How could we have
members of the General Court. These people all can't be whiches?
Can they? Are we all witches? Well? You know that's
that's one of the things that that is so intriguing

(46:47):
about the Salem case specifically, is that you know, you
go to England and Europe and accused, which is fit
a very particular profile. Most of the time. You know,
they are again the outsiders that we talked about some ways,
the irreligious or the poor, the outspoken. There typically women,
you know, they're the they're they're not they're the non
ruling class um, and of them seems to start that

(47:10):
way exactly, yes, you know you yeah, Sarah Good, Sarah Osburne,
and Tituba fit the bill right right, But that that
lens begins to whiten rather quickly. Why does it whiten?
And som yeah, I mean it's typical, right, Titeba as
the as the slave, and Sarah Osborne kind of as
the the woman of ill fame, perhaps because she married
her in denshured servant, and Sarah Good that adult, distempered,

(47:31):
poor woman. Traditionally, witchcraft is a working class crime, right yes,
on the other side of the tracks, and it involves
things like cursing and begging and right and right. So
what happens in Salem is again to me, it's the storm.
It's all these forces that make people realize, especially when Titeba.
Here's the thing, the same thing about Saling. There are
there are times throughout the spring and summer could have

(47:52):
come to an end, right right, and one of them
was even when Titeba confesses it could have come to
an end. But when she says, I saw nine names
in Satan's book that he wanted where he wanted me
to sign, that's telling you that there's there's more witches
out there, and and and it expands, right. And I
think what happens is, again, initially most of those early
people are your typical types, right, but it does start

(48:18):
to escalate. And I think that's evidence of the state
of Massachusetts at the time. Um. I think it's evidence
also to people being really scared and really angry, right witchcraft.
Interesting thing about witchcraft. Historically, we know from the work
of Wolfgang Barranger that two of the major factors as
to when witchcraft accusations take place anywhere is when there's
horrifically bad weather, um, catastrophically bad weather destroying crops. Right.

(48:42):
And in the pre industrial agrarian society, you don't have crops,
you don't eat, people die, um, and you're looking for
someone to hold responsible. Right, So what do you do.
You look to your government to help you out, to
provide assurances to take care of the problem. Well, if
you have really horribly bad weather, the worst weather the
little ice age in sixteen nineties, right, and combine that
with with weak central government, Uh, this this guy as

(49:03):
governor who has never been in politics before. Um, that's
when you have witchcraft outbreaks, and so I think people
began to be they didn't know who to turn to.
They were they were concerned that had an interim government
for several years. Now they have Governor Phipps. We're losing
the war. Who even the judges who are also the
leading militiamen of the colony. One of the witchcraft judges,

(49:24):
Wait Winthrop, is the commander in chief of the Massachusetts
Army that's leading the war. Judge Bartholomey Agadney is the
colonel of the Essex County Regiment. Um. You know, Judge
Saltonstall is another colonel in the Essex Regiment. Most of
these guys are captains or majors, are higher in the militia,
and so um, it's it's it looks like there's a
complete inability for the government to do this, which I
think in some ways why is why people begin accusing

(49:47):
their ministers, including their minister's wives, including the wives of
Governor um saying like, you know, you folks, maybe the
problem here, right, and so what you have is again
maybe it's that wealthy merchant Philip English, who's an outside right,
He's from the Channel Islands. His first language is French.
He comes over here as Philip langlais not Philip English. Right.

(50:09):
So again it's those people who have let us down,
the leaders of our community. And increasingly, unlike very very
few outbreaks everywhere of anywhere of witchcraft, it goes, it
climbs that social ladder because people are seeking answers and
they're not They're not getting them powerful stuff. Huh it
really is. Yeah? Well so, um in one of the

(50:31):
ways that it spreads is um, at least two covenant
members of the church in Salem Village become accused. Um.
Was there something about those people, in particular Rebecca Rebecca Nurse. Um?
I think as again as another her case is another
key turning point. Right, and why would this wonder this,
this elderly sainted grandmother who's a member of the Salem

(50:54):
Town Church up here in Saint why would she be
accused of witchcraft? Well again, notice she's a member of
the Salem Town Church, not the Salem Village Church. Right.
And Um, in many ways, particularly Ben Rey has has
looked at this very carefully and talks about the fact
that what you see in six nine two is members
of the Salem Village that's the church, members of Salem
Village sort of um attacking outward against anyone who's not

(51:17):
one of their own. And if you think about it,
one of the first people they might attack would be UM,
a woman um like Rebecca Nurse who attends Salem Village
But as a member of Salem Town Church, aren't we
good enough for you? Why not? Could it be the
fact that you and your husband a few years ago
took in quite a Quaker orphan Um when when? When?

(51:39):
When his parents died and they were neighbors and friends
of the Nurses. Um, Well, you know, we know your charitable,
good puritan, godly folk. But but why why? Why had
a Quaker child? Why not join Salem Village Church? Why
does your husband Francis Nurse? Why is he one of

(51:59):
the leads of the faction that is trying to get
Samuel Paris thrown out as minister in Salem Village. So
there with the Becca Nurse there there even though she's
a god fearing Puritan, there there are there there are
some questions about her orthodoxies and and and Martha Corey
is another example, interesting example, right, she's a member of
the Salem Village Church. Why would you go after one

(52:22):
of your own. Well, let's look at Mrs Corey a
bit um. She's like the trophy wife of Giles Corey.
She's she's maybe ten years younger than them, but you know,
she's she's uh, she she's like the the younger wife
who's all interested in joining the church and um at

(52:43):
the same time too. You know, her husband is not
the nicest guy. I mean, he had been accused of
setting for arson on his on the on the house
of his neighbor John Proctor. Uh and uh. And he
had also been convicted really of manslaughter back in the
sixteen seventies, of beating his simple minded teenage servant um

(53:05):
to within an inch of his life. And then the fellow,
poor fellow dies several days later, and they say, well,
it isn't exactly murder, but you know, okay, pay a fine,
pay a fine, isn't it Isn't it interesting that people
remembered this in sixteen two? Is a matter of fact,
no lesser a man than um. Thomas Putnam wrote a

(53:26):
letter to Judge Sewell the night before childs Corey is
pressed to death, and he says, so, just in case
you've forgotten, here's what Corey did back in the sixteen seventies,
So you shouldn't feel too guilty if you're really trying
to press an answer out of him. So but even
worse about that too. To me, it all comes back

(53:47):
to religion ultimately. You know, here's the thing. I think
so many of us who studied the witch trials, myself included,
are really kind of like social historians are cultural historians,
and we see witchcraft as a social cultural phenomena, neighborly conflict.
You know, my my previous book, The Devil a Great Islands,
Witchcraft and conflict in early New England, and it's all
about neighborliness or lack thereof, and property disputes and stuff

(54:07):
like that. But you know what it's not. It's really
about religion. Witchcraft is a religious crime and you have
to realize that that is, that is what was behind
most of it. So what did the Quarries do to
upset people in Salem Village in the church? Okay, here's
what they did. Clearly, Martha wants Chiles to become a
church member too and be able to receive communion. Clearly,
Martha wants Chiles to be able to join her as

(54:29):
a member of the sale and village church, but his frankly,
his reprobate past precludes that because particularly Salem Village has
not accepted the Halfway Covenant, they still insist on full
personal confession in front of the congregation if you want
to be not just someone attending meeting, which everyone has
to do, but a member of the church, a saint,
a congregant um, because in seventeenth century church is not

(54:52):
a building. It's it's the it's the it's those those
holy true believers, right, the saints. You must stand up
in front of the church membership up and recite all
your sins and beg forgiveness and say that God has
spoken to you and you know now that you were
going to be saved, and you ask them to let
you join them in fellowship. Right. This is a this

(55:12):
is a really tough act, and it's one reason why
many churches, including in Salem Town, why they were losing
members and why the minister had said, now we're scrapping
that you just come in and talk to me. And
if I decide that you're a good person and you're
you have a good record, here will make you a minister.
I may make you a member of the congregation. And
that's the Halfway Covenant, right, the Halfway Covenant, Well, Halfway

(55:33):
Covenant is related to that. Halfway is another one of
the loose things. The Halfway Covenant, uh is goes in.
What happens is is members of the second generation forties
and fifties, they lacked their religious fervor of their parents.
Here's the thing, you know, in many ways, we all
want to be like our parents. We want we want
to to honor them, but with different people than our parents.
And you know, if you came over, took your your

(55:53):
your family across the ocean for this to worship as
you see fit and it's everything all important to you.
Your kids they may not quite believe that. They may
want to they want to be like you, but they
God hasn't spoken to them. What do you do. Well,
unless God speaks to you and you want to confess that,
you can't become a member of the church. So the
Halfway Covenant allows the children of that second generation who

(56:15):
have not become church members, allows their children to be
baptized because you know what if they're not baptized and
they die, they can't go to heaven. Right, um, they're
going to go to hell, little babies in Hell. This
is not good. So we'll pass the Halfway Covenant. And
you know what we're also going to do is many
of these churches are going to loosen up church membership.
We're going to allow people we don't are going to

(56:37):
put them through that ordeal again. Talk to the minister
if you're good. Yes, Reverend Higginson and Salem nearly, Salem
Town nearly left. He was willing to leave Salem if
they didn't loosen up those rules and adopt the Halfway Covenant,
because otherwise they were going to lose all their members,
all right, not Salem Village, no, very strict. So interesting
the Corries used that loophole. Giles Corey becomes a member

(56:59):
of a Salem Town church and even though they say,
basically despite his his reprobate past, he's acknowledged his past
as a center and we accept him into into our fellowship,
into our covenant. Right. So then imagine, here's this fellow
who people know to be who he is, and he's
sitting right there and and and and and um taking
partaking of the Lord's Supper with the other members of

(57:22):
the Salem Village church. Because as a member of the
Salem Town Church. You know, like Rebecca nurs you can
attend and you have full rights really you know, to
to receive communion. And so really isn't that interesting? This
this this this trophy hunting, social climbing wife who claims
she's a gospel woman. And look how she managed to

(57:42):
get her her husband, Giles Corey arsonists beater of servants.
We've managed to get him into the church. Something's wrong here,
so I think you know and also too, but here's
the thing to me, what's wrong with Salem Village Church.
When Samuel Parris arrives, we have the beginnings of the
the the the first he's the first ordained minister in

(58:04):
Salem Village, which means that he's allowed to give the sacraments,
including the Lord's Supper, to baptize children and the first year.
So he does a great job of using what we
would call kind of like fire and brimstone servants. You know,
God is coming, He's terribly angry. Time to join the church. Now,
it's not too late. Repent your sins right or else.
And that works for a year or so. But also too,

(58:25):
I think people a lot of people who didn't accept this,
and they look at the pure hypocrisy of this, because
here's the point. Before Salem Village, the original members of
the Salem Village Church that signed the the the the
creation of the church with Paris in nine had previously
been members of the Church Saints in other towns, other

(58:46):
towns that had accepted the Halfway Covenant, that accepted these
looser membership rules. So, UM, think about this. All of
the all of these people had come in under these
easier rules, by the way, as had people like Bartholemew
Gutney and John Haythorn were two of the first member
is to commend under Higginson's loosened rules in Salem Town.
So I think about this. You have all of these
people that Paris is convinced. Nope, we're not going to

(59:09):
accept the Halfway Covenant. We're not going to water down
our rules for membership. We're gonna we have to be
true believers here, right. Imagine someone like Giles Corey saying, yeah,
but none of you people got in that way. You
just talk to the minister and got in. You're gonna
make me stand up and and blurt out all my
sins by Jay hypocrites right, interesting that a number of

(59:29):
ministers and members of their family accused of witchcraft in
guess what. All of them are members of congregations that
have accepted the Halfway Covenant and these looser, looser membership rules. Again,
it's it's not the economy stupid, it's religion stupid. Right,
That's what this is. That, this is what this is
all about. The sensation is always it takes something so

(59:52):
complex like what happened in Sixto and boil it down
into a modern day and say, well, it's it's like
conservatives were us liberals, you know, or whatever. It is
just they just say some moldy bread that that's what
did it, right, exactly, that's moldy bread. But the nuances
are where the the flavor is in the texture. I mean,
this is well and to me, see this is the thing. Honestly,

(01:00:12):
this is why historians love studying things like the Salem
witch Trials and witchcraft in general, because witchcraft Salem and
elsewhere is indicative of strains in society, you know, economic, political, religious,
and historians are always really interested in change. And clearly
there's so many different pieces to this puzzle, and it

(01:00:33):
explains why there's a book written pretty much every year
on it and why most of them are really really good,
and they all say in some ways very different different things, right, Right,
And then each one of them is sort of a
reflection of the society that the writers live in. Sure,
you know that's that's what happens with correct this is
and you know this is the thing when this is
what we call historiography, right, is the idea that the

(01:00:53):
history you reflect maybe talk tells you more about your
life and times than than anything else. Right. And so
for ex ample, if you look at you know, Carol Carlson,
The Devil in the Shape of a Woman, that couldn't
have been written before the Women's Moving in America, couldn't.
And a hundred years from now historians will look back
and then know exactly when that book was written, just
by the title. Right. And And to me, so I'm

(01:01:14):
I'm clearly more of a child of Watergate. Why are
they saying all those bad things about good President Nixon?
I can't believe that, right, he's such a good guy
who But clearly to me, I think the Salem witch
Trials in many ways is symptomatic of it's are the
first mass cover up in American history, the first complete
failure of the government to protect the innocent. And I

(01:01:34):
honestly think that libertarian strain that we have in our
politics today on both the left and the right, this
distrust of government in some ways, you know, you might
be able to trace it back to that, because long
before Watergate, people were worried about their government, and certainly
in the Salem witch trials, they were very worried about

(01:01:55):
what's going on. In the election immediately after the witch trials,
about half the members of the legislator were turned out
in a very traditional Puran society where they kept on
reelecting the elders for year after year. And you know,
things had changed and clearly um the government had made
had made serious errors here that they weren't willing to acknowledge.
And again I think, you know, we went that old joke,

(01:02:17):
I'm from the government, I'm here to I'm here to
help you, right. We think of that stuff as being
very modern or even if it, oh well, maybe it
goes back to the Crucible. Nope. The first the first
book that was written sort of making fun of the
sale in which Trials was published. What in the late
sixteen nineties. So it's a it's a it's a it's
a deep instinct that we have. But you're talking about
to cover up too, and we have. Right at the
end of it all, Phipps basically prohibiting the publication things

(01:02:40):
that went on. Obviously he had, as he talked about
before he had his household, you know, issues and his
reputational issues. Did he have any particular goal in mind
by stopping the publication? Sure? Absolutely, well. I mean it's
pretty fascinating because he arrives in May and he's out
of touch with the British government until October when he
finally writes to them for the first time. And in
that letter he said, you know, well we may have

(01:03:01):
had a little problem with witchcraft, but not to worry.
You know, no innocent lives were lost, and I've taken
care of it. And by the way, if you don't
believe me, here's a copy which he literally sends one
of the first copies of Cotton Mather's book with that letter.
See no innocent no more than the imminent. Cotton Mather
says here that no innocent lives were lost. So situation normal,

(01:03:22):
the government's in good stead. Here you can trust me
as governor, right, um. And you know people maybe people
may question things, and if that happens, you know, things
might unravel a bit here. So we wouldn't want that
to happen. And since we have the truth here from
Cotton Mather, well you know, I've just issued this band
saying that you know, we're not gonna have anything more
written on it because we have the truth from Cotton Mather.

(01:03:43):
So do we need to do anything else? And basically
what Phipps realizes is if he doesn't put the screws
down on complaint over the witch trials, um, it will
it will go out of control. You know, he really
sort of sees it breaking into this this just this
this wildfire, and what it will do is it will
bring down his government. Um and and if it does that,
it really will be the end of his political life.

(01:04:06):
And also and frankly others realized this will be the
end of the Puritan experiment because again, going back, if
you remember what happened before Phips and before the interim government,
he had Governor Andrews in the Dominion of New England
who was really um almost like a military dictator, right,
and he was he was an Anglican with a Church
of England, and Puritanism no longer was special. Massachusetts was

(01:04:27):
no longer special. It was part of a super colony,
the stretch from New Jersey to Maine. Um. And so
they had fought hard and phips and increased. Mather had
come back with this new charter and it wasn't perfect,
but it was a restoration of Puritan Massachusetts. And if
we blow it this time, it is over. We will
just become my god, we might have Andrew's back and

(01:04:48):
here as a military governor where he's picking people for juries,
and he's picking people for the legislature, and we lose
the rights of Englishmen. So he had to do everything
he could from a personal point of view, to end
the trials, to prevent his wife from being charged to
to for to not be the end of his political career,
to to um now him being ironically, here's this guy

(01:05:10):
who only a couple of years before become a Puritan,
and now incredibly he's got to charge in on his
white stallion and be the great savor of the Puritan movement,
a guy who many people must have been shaking their
heads saying, like, why on earth did we allow this
guy to become governor because he's not one of us.

(01:05:30):
And my God, look at the disasters he's creating. The
worst gotten worse, The weather's gotten worse. Um, there are
innocent people losing their lives. Why do we still follow
this guy? We're still talking about two right? Well, what
else were we talking about? Of course, I shake my
head as you're talking about this where you have a

(01:05:51):
particular group of religious people who feel that they're losing
they're losing control of the community that they think they built,
and an unqualified leader swings in and suppresses the press
to control the message and make sure that it all
doesn't go away. It's that that's kind of what happened
in and now. But you know, I mean, I don't,

(01:06:14):
I don't, I don't. I don't try to make too
many modern day parallels because I think you can probably
read maybe more into that than than is there. But
what's really clear is that that, uh to me was
that also too, is that you know, the best way
to ensure that this sort of infamy and and and
misstep by the government, the best way to ensure that
people will never forget it is to try to cover

(01:06:36):
it up, right, right. I mean, that's a lesson. We
did learn the water gates well. And you know, so
you mentioned cotton mother's father, Increase Mather, who was working
with Phipps on the new Charter and and bringing all
of that back. But it seems at the end Increase
sort of takes a turn away from Phipps and his son.
So here's the thing. Um, yeah, Increased matter is really

(01:06:58):
is the most influential minister are in the colony. And
of course actually and then and his wife is the
daughter of John Cotton, the great Puritan minister as well too,
So it is like the super family of Puritanism. And
they have Cotton and other sons and nephews and brothers
and all these people who are at the sort of
the center of the Puritan movement in Massachusetts. And Increases
the president of Harvard College. So yeah, um, he is

(01:07:20):
Mr Puritan right. Um. And then he's but he also
too begins to realize in the late summer of sixwo
that something's gone terribly wrong here. And um, but he
has to finesse this right because on the one hand,
uh Stowton and Phipps have asked his son Cotton to
write this book essentially to defend the colony. And here
to me, you know, I think Cotton I'm not a

(01:07:41):
big Cotton Mather fan, but I think he gets a
lot of bad press because he's um. He really takes
a bullet for the team when he writes when he
writes Wonders of the Invisible invisible world, right, which is
a is a it's it's so such an obvious sham
uh is. He would have been a spend doctor today, right, um.
And and he described it's some long term as ap puritan.

(01:08:01):
So but in the meantime here's his father having to
try to so he can mothers doing duty, trying to
save the colony, trying to save Puritanism. But his father realizes,
we need to save lives, and how do I do
that without without going and get being seen as flitting
with my son, And he sort of pulls his political
finesse where he also he actually you know, he writes
the sort of the preface to his his son's books,

(01:08:23):
or of saying, yep, good stuff, your son, keep up
the good work. But then if you read his book,
his it's going like better that a hundred witches should
live than one innocent person die. Right, So it's clear
that we need to do something about this. And I

(01:08:44):
think most of us his historians have a hard time
reconciling that. But I think it's easy to think of
increased Mather the politician, but also increased Mather the father, right,
you know, um, and that he had a very he
had ad is a is a very thin kneele to
sort of thread there to sort of say, yeah, I
agree with your Cotton, but I think we need to

(01:09:06):
put the brakes on this right. And in fact, actually
Cotton Mather had previously done that in the in the
earlier in the summer, you know, when you wrote the
return of the Ministers when they said, when the judges
are going like so the spectral evidence, what do you think?
And Cotton Mather is the junior partner of the Mather firm,
you know, very deferential. Oh yes, thank you for asking.

(01:09:28):
And here's the reply of the ministers. And we think
that you need to be really careful when you use
spectral evidence, right, because you need other evidence. And clearly
it's it's uh, it's it's dicey stuff. But you know what,
you guys are doing a great job because you're the
leaders of our colony and we respect and revere you
and just keep up the good work. Again, it depends

(01:09:52):
on how you want to read that, just like increasing
Cotton Mathers. So they're they're very political animals and they're
trying to be deferential, but they're all trying to go like,
do you really know what you're doing here? And watch
out right? Yeah? Yeah, So, I mean I think and
I think Mather, Increased Mather does a good job of
doing that. And also too, I think really he's the one.
I don't think Phips splits with him. I think Phipps,

(01:10:12):
I think it's increased Mather. Once he turns that clearly,
Phipps says okay, and then again to yeah again. By
the way, Phips comes back from trying to defend the
frontier in Maine and he writes this letter, and of
course in the letter he openly lies, and he says,
you know, I came back and I left Stowton in
charge and things just all these people accused of which
is and I never you know, why I let him
do this, and it's all his fault. Phipps had been

(01:10:33):
in mass Chuses almost that whole time, right, he could
have put a stop to it, but again it wasn't
political expedient. But when he comes back and there're more
people in jail and he hears an increase, Mather's wife
and his wife have been accused. Okay, we're putting the
brakes on this immediately, your right increase. It's coming to
a halt. The court of Oyer and Terminter must fall. Yeah,
you mentioned Stoughton. Um, he's one of my least favorite people.

(01:10:54):
They're just when he starting there a lot you know,
in the in the story, he seems to be the
most absence of it all. But but he's he's the
leader of these judges, right, He's William. William Stonton is
a ghost character, a friend of mine. I've had people
in the past try to do this, and your friends
trying to do it now, to try to write a
biography of Stoughton. And I'm not sure if it's possible,
because I believe me, it was bad enough with Phips,
who was an illiterate governor who left almost no records.

(01:11:17):
But Stoughton, there's no family papers, there's no nothing. So uh,
he's he. And what's amazing to me about Stoonton is
again too, I think here's the problem. I really think
the judges like Stoton were filled with incredible self loathing. Um.
And Stoton had been a minister, right, he had been
a minister in England back and he's basically kicked out
after with the Restoration because he was a Puritan. And

(01:11:39):
he comes back to New England and he comes and
he comes back and he's he's hailed as as this
wonderful leading figure of the colony. And um, he's asked
by several towns, please be our minister, please, please please
be our minister. And he says, no, I'm not worthy.
I'm not worthy of being a minister. Um, I can't
do it. And I think again, I I think, Um,

(01:11:59):
I think there's these guys are have troubled souls. Uh
so uh Samuel sewell as well too. You can see
his struggles. He doesn't want to become a member of
the church because it doesn't think he's worthy. My god,
the guy was brilliant student at Harvard. He could recite
the Bible backwards and forwards, read his his two volume diary,
and you know he's an incredibly devout Puritan. But he

(01:12:20):
thinks he's not worthy. And I think Stowton has some
of that sort of concerns about his his soul and
his worthiness. Um, interesting guy, he never marries. This is
almost unheard of in mass Chuset in the seventeenth century. Um,
does that mean he is he committing sin? Is he is?
He is he fornicating with the maids and he's self
loathing because of that? Or we don't. We don't know

(01:12:41):
what it was, but I think uh so. Instead he
is driven. He has absolutely driven to stamp out which
is right. He sees that is the big sin. And
you're right. He is the leader of the course. But
he doesn't show up much, does he. He doesn't lead
much of a paper trail at all, even as his
acting governor. But it's clear that the judges are deferential
to him. And when he sets the stage and and

(01:13:03):
and when he you know, interrogates the jury with the
Rebecca nurse and says, you didn't did you hear her
answer to this? Why didn't you ask her to follow
up on this? Maybe you should think about this verdict again.
They're all taking their cues from Stowton, and to me,
that's part of the tragedy. Two. Here's all of these judges,
for the most part aside from really from from from Stoughton,

(01:13:25):
and from Seoul. These guys are all related by marriage.
They're all in laws of each other, They're all part
of this wealthy merchant class. They all think like each other,
and once Stowton takes the lead, they all fall into place.
And then and the only one I really always wondered
about is Samuel Seul, right, because here's this really thinking
guy who's the youngest, who spends much of his his
remaining years later on in life of trying to atone
for the sin of the Salem witch trials and passing

(01:13:47):
that that duty onto his sons after he dies. And
then I the answer to that though is two again.
It's family because his wife is Samuel Parris's first cousin.
So imagine that so and they known each They would
have known each other in Boston. One of the few
people that when when Paris moves in from Barbados, that
he would have known would have been the Seuel family, right,
And so imagine when when when Samuel shows up as

(01:14:09):
one of the witchcraft judges, and smart guy, he's probably saying,
I don't know about this, right, what's going on here?
But imagine when he when he meets Samuel Paris, and
he's saying, you know, cousin, cousin, thank god you're here, right,
I mean, we don't I'm imagining this. We don't know,
but thank god you're here. Look look at my daughter,
Look at look at our daughter, look at our niece.
Thank god you were here. Help them find the witches

(01:14:32):
into the torments. And you know, Samuel sewel this this
very thoughtful, deliberative guy. I'm looking after my family. That
comes first. I believe. I believe my cousin, right, I mean,
it was his wife's cousin. It's cousin, it's family. I
must help the Paris family. And it's only I think,
too late that that Seuel realizes that they've all been

(01:14:54):
just just been been taken in by by this, by
this incredible storm. You know, I don't. I don't see
us as being evil either. I think he was. He was.
He was a genuinely troubled guy. Um who was was
head demons of his own right. Um. I don't think
he's trying to, you know, point the finger of accusation
of certain people, even as political opponents. But I do
think he's a guy who sees his political opponents as

(01:15:16):
being inspired by Satan. Right well, and at the same time,
this all begins in his house, correct, you know, and
so that he must have felt this, this overwhelming sense
of I mean, as a minister, he would have had
a j as a minister. But then but then now
it's my house, that duty is is now paramount. I
have to correct and and it's but even too, they

(01:15:36):
think about this. The devil only attacks people to afflix them,
or makes or tries to get them as witches because
of it was believed, because of some imperfection in their soul. Frankly,
this would get to the generaho. This is why women
were more susceptible, because they were considered the weaker vessel.
My my, my wonderful wife and two very strong daughters
would disagree, and so would I. But right, this is

(01:15:58):
the time, um, and so so clearly that's you know. Um.
When Paris's daughter and niece are the first to be afflicted,
Paris must have been riddled with self doubt and shame.
How could this happen to my my family? What? What
what have I done? What have my wife and I
done to to to to to do this? Clearly we

(01:16:20):
must have done something wrong, right, how have we invited
Satan into our household? And of course very quickly realized, well,
all we didn't do it. It was it was our neighbor,
Mrs Sibley, and uh, and she got Titaba and John
Indian to do the counter magic and the witch's cake.
And it's her fault. Right. The devil hath been raised,
as Richard Trask surely showed you in that in that book. Right,

(01:16:40):
it was very Sibley, It wasn't It wasn't my daughter, right,
we deflect tell me about the devil in the world
of well, I mean we have how many how many
years do we have we have? I mean we have
our own modern day views, you know, indpendent on what
your religious backgrounds are as well. But but it seems
that in Salem in six they had a very particular
vision of the devil. Yeah. What's amazing is in the

(01:17:02):
late seventeenth century there in Salem and elsewhere, the devil
has this very corporeal form. I mean, you know, he he,
he takes physical appearance. It can be a bird, it
can be a dog, it can be the guy with
the pointy tail right in the horns um and and
he walks the earth. Right, He's not just he's not
just in hell or um. He's here and he is

(01:17:24):
he is a physical presence and that's something that is
that is and also he wants you to sign his book.
This thing that is very puritan, very Massachuset is a
highly literate society. This is something you don't see in
other places where. And also, by the way, very legally,
it's very contractual. So I've got this contract here for
you to sign. If you could take a look in
my book here and if you could just sign in
blood here, will will be we'll have a deal. Right.

(01:17:45):
It's a it's a very pure and form of Satan.
But he's a very real presence. And again if you
think about two sort of coverting amongst the Native Americans
and the French, the French Catholics on the frontier, and
that's of course, um where where we have one of
the early sightings of of of of Satan in the
Salem Witch trials is you know, he's up in he's up.

(01:18:05):
He was at Casco Bay and that's where I first
met him, right, because that's where you'd expect to run
into him. But again, physically meeting Satan, something that by
the early eighteenth century, you know, Satan becomes this very
sort of distant force like by the second by the
first grade Awakening in the seventeen twenties, Satan no longer
walks the earth, but in but in Salem six two,
he can knock on your door. He's very absolutely he

(01:18:26):
can be. He can he can be tormenting Titaba in
the in the lean to of the Paris parsonage, telling
her I'm gonna I'm gonna hurt you if you don't
hurt the Paris kids, right, and so that it's a
and again, if you think about this, this is a
very real, imminent, scary, horny beast, who is who? Who
is here to get you? And uh again, I think

(01:18:47):
it's it's it's a you know, it's it's a very
terrifying kind of kind of image as opposed to even
by the eighteenth century, you know where you know, yeah, Satan, Yeah,
that Satan is this force, right, but he's not He's
not going to torture you and pinch you and in person. Yeah,
obviously you've written a book on this, You've spoken prolifically

(01:19:08):
about it and studied it for years. But if if
there is one thing that you hoped people walked away
with out of the plethora of things they could walk
away with. Um, if if there's one thing that or
maybe maybe we can stream it as if there's one
thing that it means to you. So I mean, to
me it is the ultimate sort of cautionary tail. Um.
And and then I you know, unfortunately it's a sad

(01:19:31):
story and it doesn't have a happy ending because I
think in some ways, as long as we have prejudice
and hatred, um, we're going to have some form of witchcraft, right,
We're gonna have. We're gonna it's a question of of
treating others differently and scapegoating. And you know, the way
I look at it too, as you know, I think,
here's the thing to me is what what bothers me?
So much as so many people say how ignorant people

(01:19:53):
were back then, how could they possibly believe in which
is and that they were well? First off, remember in
sixte two, which is where real everybody believed in them.
University ministers, doctors of theology, governors, popes, which is are real.
The only kind of serious question is is who are they?
How do we figure out who they are and how

(01:20:13):
do we stop them? Because they could be anybody could
be you, It could be me, It could be it
could be one of our children, could be could be
a witch. They look just like us. Right. Well, but
but here's the thing. These people want to destroy your society,
uproot your faith, wipe out your family, kill you and
everyone in your hometown and in your in your nation

(01:20:36):
wherever that is. We have to stop them. Well, how
the heck do we do this if we don't know
who they are and what they look like. Well, we
start looking at people are a little bit different. How
about that person that may worship God a little bit
differently than me, or that person sitting next to church
and me who had this odd accent right, or maybe
was wearing a different sort of hat than I wear?

(01:20:56):
Um or uh, you know, we have to start looking
and look somewhere because if we don't start profiling and
looking for people who are different than us, they're going
to do us in um. So here's the thing to me.
If you switch the word witch and terrorists, you will
understand just how difficult the task was in six because

(01:21:17):
it's the kind of task and trouble we face today. Uh,
you know where we know, um that we have enemies
in our midst and if they would, they would destroy
everything we believe in. They would destroy us. How much
of our liberties, of our faith, of our of our
good nature, of our trust of others, of our desire

(01:21:39):
to help strangers, no matter how different from us, how
much of that are we willing to sacrifice to try
to save everything that we believe in. We are very
hard in the people of I think if you look
back on on our on our perspective, in three years,
people may be hard on us, um and again, despite

(01:22:00):
the best intentions of people to create a good, orderly,
godly society, bad things happen. And I think the thing is,
you know it to me, the you know, the lesson
is if we can just if we can just try
to be understanding your kind of people, you know, and
try to get through it as best we can, but
and try to look towards the good and human nature
and try to avoid those sort of base reflexes as

(01:22:22):
much as possible. But you know, it's it's it's it's
not a happy ending, and we just we just we
just hope people learn from it. This episode of Unobscured
was executive produced by me, Matt Rederick, and Alex Williams,

(01:22:44):
with music by Chad Lawson and audio engineering by Alex Williams.
The Unobscured website has everything you need to get the
most out of the podcast. There's a resource library of maps, charts,
and links to Salem document archives online as all as
a suggested reading list and a page with all of
our historian biographies. And as always, thanks for supporting this show.

(01:23:08):
If you love it, head over to Apple podcasts dot
com slash Unobscured and leave a written review and a
star rating. It makes a huge difference for the show's growth,
and as always, thanks for listening.

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S1 – INTERVIEW 1: Emerson Baker

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S1 – INTERVIEW 1: Emerson Baker