Doug reacts to a West Virginia Federal Judge’s ruling allowing players who transferred twice in one year to play immediately.
Then, Gottlieb is joined by sports attorney - and SANIL CEO - Jason Belzer to finish their discussion on his company’s profitable NIL business model, the impact on Title IX and women's sports funding, and how many athletes could be exploited or fall through the cracks in the new era.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, what a book ame in? I'm Doug, got me.
This is all all. We have part two coming up
for you of Jason Beltzer, and Jason is in addition
to being an attorney and teaching about all of these things,
he's I guess you could say, ahead of the curve
with Nil and his company represents universities as well as athletes.
(00:28):
So it's all part of this bigger conversation. And what's
interesting is this was recorded last week, right the first
week in December. Now the second full week in December,
we get news today that there's a judge in West
Virginia which granted a fourteen day stay on the rulings
(00:50):
for two time transfers, specifically in West Virginia. But now
the NCAA is allowing all student athletes and a second
transfer during this period of time to play. And this
is crazy. I actually feel bad for the NCAA. And
I've been, as most of you know, I've been a
supporter of the idea of amateurism, the idea of educating
(01:12):
more people than would ever get an opportunity. And you
know I understand that with the times and with the
exploding finances and ability to generate more revenue that athletes
student athletes can be taken care of better. But I
also knew what and IO would turn out to be,
which is paid for play. But this is where I
feel really bad for the NCAA. This was a rule
(01:35):
that I can't think of a coach, administrator, assistant coach
didn't want in place where your second transfer. Again, Remember, like,
here's what's bullshit about all this. No one said of
your transfer a second time, you can't play or beyond scholarship,
but you would have to sit for a year, which
(01:57):
there is no negatives there. And if you're a you're
go to your third school. What's the difference in sitting
a year when you didn't sit in junior, first and
second school. But the real craziness to this is schools
voted on this. It was approved and a champion really
behind the scenes by most coat by coaches and by administrators.
(02:18):
Many of the same coaches and administrators, especially coaches who
wanted this push for it were the ones like Matt Brown.
I mean, this is where coaches are so full of
shit that they do themselves in a no justice that
no one believes the word they say. Most of them
are not, But like take Mack Brown. There are quotes
from him saying how the system had to change and
(02:40):
that there needed to be some guardrails in place, especially
for second time transfers. That he has a wide receiver
who's a two time transfer and he wants to play
right away. Unc writes a nasty letter towards the NZA,
and eventually tes Walker gets to play, right I mean,
it's it's it's it's craziness. So now what now the
(03:02):
NCAA is unofficially or officially powerless. I mean again, like,
what what is the purpose of having a governing body
made up of voting members? If you approve a rule
and six months into the rule being in place, the
court comes in like nah. And what it's pushing us
(03:23):
towards is what Jason is discussing in the spot, which
is professionalization of amateur athletics. And I'm going to like,
you'll be able to draw this podcast up anytime you want.
It's already a fucking mess. It's going to be a disaster.
And what's going to happen, as Jason has point out,
is yeah, there'll be some kids that make money, and
(03:45):
agents will make lots of money, and lawyers will make money,
and accountants will make money. But what will happen is
one of two things, and probably both one. Eventually there'll
be some sort of collective bargaining, because that's essentially what's
being said here, right that these are basically non competes.
And but what is the purpose of having a contract
(04:07):
you signed with the school for a scholarship or even
for nil, and yet there's no non competes in them.
What business has that or what scholarship has that? I
don't know, but apparently you have to have a signed
non compete. In order to have a sign non compete,
you're probably gonna have to have some sort of collective bargaining. Well,
here's the thing about collective bargaining. You don't just get
(04:30):
what you want right, like, oh, we want this, we
want that, Like it'll just worked that way. And as
much as we think that schools and the NCAA or whoever,
however the negotiation takes place, well, ACQUI ask to the
student athlete. The truth is, at some point they'll put
their feet down and go, now, we're not doing it.
And here's the problem with it from the student athlete's perspective.
(04:50):
In professional sports, go in track Baseball is said to
have the strongest union, although their last two deals have
not nearly been as strong as the past. Football's union,
for example, cowers constantly to the NFL, and they have
a ten year collective our agreement. Basketball the same. Now,
what most people see is how much money the top
end guys are making, and it's a lot. It's a lot,
(05:13):
but it's all a respective ratio of what they're bringing in.
And it's going to be interesting because you do have
Title nine with Jason addresses in this pod and the
previous pod. You know, you do have this tax exempt
status that college sports operates under, and you have these
lack of noncompetes. But here's the bigger the biggest issue,
(05:34):
I believe, in addition to the fact that nobody wants
to pay taxes and there's Title nine and that's going
to be a mess to kind of sort through, the
biggest issue is that if the players say hey, or
the schools say that this is our offer, take it
or leave it. Do you really think that college football
(05:55):
players and college basketball players are going to walk away
from the offer. Let me give you a hint. The
answer is no, because all of these deals that get
done in any professional support, they focus on the rank
and file because that's the vast majority of the kids,
and so the rank and file will likely be well
(06:18):
compensated across the board to rank and file will get
some sort of extended insurance. After they get done in college,
the rank and file will have in probably numerous benefits
and some guardrails so that they can transfer and not
set out or when they can actually make the nil
or how much academics has to do with it. They
may even have to pay for their own education as
(06:40):
well as the taxes and the benefits they receive. But
if they say no, if the colleges say no, this
is it. You think that again, we're not talking about
the ten to fifteen kids that can go and play
in a G league, or they can go and play
overseas or for overtime eleague. Even if we take that
as the top kids, there are three hundred and sixty
(07:03):
plus Division one schools in men's college basketball. There are
thirteen scholarships a pop. You do the math. You think
all those kids are sitting and not collecting a penny
and not going to school. Yeah, that doesn't happen. Doesn't happen?
Football doesn't hapen in basketball. So we're at a bit
of a crossroads. And as much as this interview was
(07:24):
kind of epic foreshadowing, the foreshadowing is for things that
look to be likely to come. Here's part two of
my discussion with Jason Belzer. When somebody comes to you,
as school comes to you at what do you say,
Just give me your collective, give me how you do it,
and we'll take care of the rest.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah. So, when we still speak to an institution, whether
it's an institution that has an existing collective or one
that doesn't, and I'll give you a great example, two
different examples. We just launched the collective at Syracuse on
behalf of the university of the university that didn't really
have one, Whereas at vanderbil we took over an existing
collective that was a nonprofit and are transforming it into
(08:05):
commercialized collective. When we go to any institution, we say
that there is a total addressable market for nil at
that institution. And what that means is that if we
took every dollar that every student athlete could make at
that school, put it all together, we get a number.
We actually have a formula for figuring that out and
we break that up into three buckets of revenue. Bucket
(08:27):
number one is what we classify as a member. These
are usually fans and alumni that are paying anywhere between
ten to fifty one hundred dollars a month to be
part of a club to have access to content, experiences, merchandise,
and other elements. So no different than when you pay
(08:48):
for your Netflix description or your Costco membership. At Oklahoma
Crimson and Cream, our average member pays forty one dollars
a month to be a member of Crimson and c
and for that we have more than two thousand people
that are part of that membership program. Our belief is
that at every power five we can probably average around
(09:09):
ten thousand people. We do the math on that. At
twenty five bucks a month, that's more than three and
a half million dollars a year in revenue. The second
bucket are what we classify as brands businesses, corporations, local businesses,
regional and state businesses, and then national brands that want
to do real NIL work with student athletes. And then
(09:29):
the third are the donors. Right that's the tail wagging
the dog in NIL right now. And what we do
is instead of just taking the donor money and signing
a kid, and then not giving a shit, we sign
the student athlete to a retainered contract. So at owe
you all eighty five football players, all fifteen men's basketball players,
and all twenty softball players are under a retainer with us.
(09:54):
They owe us a certain number of social media posts.
Every football player at Oklahoma receives a minimum of twenty
four thousand and right in guaranteed money from US, and
because of that, they give us eighteen social media posts,
ten appearances, fifty autographs, as well as usage of their name,
image and likeness. And so what we do is we
(10:14):
sell those assets back into the marketplace. I did a
deal with Danny Stutzman and Taco Bell and Snickers. I
did a deal for every single football, men's and women's
basketball player and softball player at Oe. You with House
Smith restaurant group. I'm sure Doug you made Knowle Smith
directly eaten at his restaurants. Anytime you got Oklahoma. Every
(10:37):
kid got five hundred dollars for two social media posts,
all organic pre sold. That money comes back to the
university or in this case, the collective, not as incremental
revenue to the student athlete, but it comes back into
the budget. We bought the asset from the student athlete,
the student athlete activated the asset with us, and then
(10:58):
we have recouped that money to put back into the collective.
I did a deal with Paramount CBS to promote the
new season of Survivor. We had one hundred and fifty
three student athletes from sixteen different universities, including Oklahoma. We
had kids from LMU and Santa Clara who we work
with all across the country, and they did a social post.
(11:19):
It was sold at a predetermined rate card somewhere between
seventy five to two hundred and fifty dollars per post,
and that was their job for that week or that
month that they were getting compensated by us, and that
money has now since been returned to their respective collective
to be deployed in the future for whatever That is
what the model will look like here period end the
(11:40):
story right when we go to revshare, if a school
is going to go prepurchase the rights of the student athlete,
hopefully we'll be organizations like ours, probably will include mmrs
like lear Field and Playfly that will be going out
and reselling that inventory to brands and businesses as part
of a larger portfolio. No different than selling the power
(12:00):
of the student athlete social media feed to push content,
to push highlights. That's what this is. It's not rocket science.
Just have a lot of different people organizing things in
a lot of different ways, and you need somebody that
can come in and slowly do it. Given enough time,
we would be able to figure it out. You know,
(12:21):
we have forty plus schools, but this thing is moving
so fast that I don't know how quickly we're going
to be able to make it figure it out before
the court's decide or Congress decides to do something stupid.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
What's the downside?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
There is no downside for the student athlete. The downside
is for the coaches, the administrators who are making millions
and millions of dollars right now, who don't want to
lose that money. I mean, at the end of the day,
if there's if tomorrow we were forced to move into
revenue share, then every football coach, every basketball coach is
(12:58):
going to have to take a salary cut, Every administrator
is going to have to take a salary cut. Do
you think those people want that? Maybe some of the
coaches do, right. I think some of the coaches at
this point are just tired. But if you're a lifelong
administrator and you're an AD making a million dollars a
year or whatever it is, do you want to lose
out on that money?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
How many administrators? How many administrators make that kind of one.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
In the Power five? Well, in the Power four, I
don't think there's an administrator in the Power four that's
making less than half a million dollars at this point.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Well, okay, but but but like, look, we're reasonable people.
If you're a you're talking about only afletic vectors. There
is nobody else making athlete out.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, how many football coaches are making ten million dollars?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Do you think that question that the football coach thing
has exploded? The problem is that, just like everywhere else
in life, there's really no middle class, right, And you know,
you're saying administrators when most the administrators don't make anything,
and then even the ads make a million dollars. Considering
how much you're raising and managing and how many years
it takes in the business to get to that place.
(14:04):
It's not like you fell out of bed and you're
making a million. Whereas now you're asking players to players
are going to be coached by coaches who make less
money than them in some cases, and there is no
to this point, there is no true obligating contract, you
know where. I mean, one of the things that I
(14:26):
think you're pretty realistic about is if you're really an employee,
it's not all a win for the student athlete, right
because there are there are some there's gonna be some
guardrails there. And I'm just wondering, like, obviously the Olympic
sports are going to get are going to really struggle,
especially at the non SEC Big ten schools. They just
(14:47):
don't They just don't have the money there. The schools
like the Vanderbilts, the Northwesterns, they're going to continue to struggle,
I think. But then the other part who it is,
will will this change the transfer portal and the ability
for players to essentially become free agents at a drop
(15:09):
of the hat.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Well, So, if you're a student athlete, and I think
you and I are on the same page with this,
we don't want them as employees, and a student athlete
shouldn't want to be an employee because then you're going
to number one, your tuition is going to be taxable income.
And many schools, let's just say you're going to play
a usc they're going to say, okay, we just won't
(15:33):
pay your tuition and you will give you one hundred
thousand dollars and you can pay your tuition yourself. Right,
So that's number one. Number two, you can be fired,
and that's not something people want. What student athletes want
in an optimal world is a revenue share without being
deemed that employee.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Give us a cut, right, they want, right, you want
the best of both worlds. But again that doesn't. You
have a lot of people in your position pushing towards
them employee model, and they they're not thinking about the
downside too. It.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Well, the lawyers don't care. The lawyers just want to
get paid. I mean, look at this lawsuit that was
filed at Oregon last week. We know we just said,
you just said it that Olympic sports, particularly women's sports,
are in deep shit right when this the flips. And
yet you have a school like Oregon that can probably
(16:24):
afford to do these things. Here are people suing not
realizing that this new era of what's going to happen
is going to be the worst thing that ever happens
to women's sports. We are at peak women's sports in
this country. I can tell you that the Olympic committees
and the individual governing bodies are deathly afraid of what
(16:47):
may happen. How are we going to be able to
have a competitive Olympic program? Right? That's why these you know,
organizations were put together in the first place. If Olympic
sports are going to get slashed because these schools can't afford,
it just doesn't make sense. And so no school that
can make money from their football program is going to
not play high level football, but they will immediately go
(17:10):
and cut whatever sports they need to cut to be
able to finance it. And I wouldn't be surprised if
we have scenarios where some school plays football and basketball
on the men's side and then they got a couple
of women's sports and every men's tennis and golf and
it's gone. Who needs it? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I just don't know if that ever happens, right, Like,
I understand that it's trending that way, but to get
to that place, you know, you know, how like it
such is the NCAA. But these schools, they can't stomach
cutting these sports. They can't stomach the bad press. I
mean they want to.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Says these as student athletes are employees and you must
collectively bargain. They will not have a choice. They will
have to come up with this money. I don't know.
Can they go tap their endowments. There are big rules
around that, but sure if all of a sudden, I
got to go loan some money against my endowment potentially.
But that's why I believe that private equity will play
(18:04):
a big role in this. In fact, they'll come to
the rescue. Then that's what it is. I mean, what
happens if this goes down and the Saudi's come in
and they say, yeah, well we'll loan you guys a
billion dollars, we'll take care of it. What happens if
they lose this Johnson case and there's treble damages where
they they're going to come up with the multi billion
dollar damages and then have to figure out how to
(18:26):
go support their other programs at the same time while
having to Each school is going to have to go
pay because all the schools are co defendants, so all
the power for schools are going to have to come
up with their one hundred million dollars to pay the damages,
and then they're also going to have to go figure
out how to pay their athletes as in revenue share,
and they're going to have to figure out how to
(18:46):
support their other sports. That is what is about to happen.
That's why I say we are in a tumultuous period.
But what is going to happen is going to be
violent because there's going to be some really tough decisions
and I don't know, maybe Congress bails out college sports
and they say, hey, we're going to give everybody a
(19:06):
billion dollars to figure this out. You're right, but I
wouldn't bet on that.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
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Speaker 1 (19:26):
You mentioned the tax free status. I know that that's
a big scary, scary word to lose. You know, with
all of these schools is the ability to to to
not have to pay taxes on the revenue. And then
and then there's the there's the athletes are going to
have to pay taxes. There's the how do you make
them pay for the education? Piece? Right, it's like a
(19:47):
memory thing. That part gets really kind of murky. So
are you of the mindset that there's going to be
a breakoff or does this keep everybody together? But the
breakoff is just in schools that can't really compete because
they don't have the money.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, what is the breakoff? Right? I mean, go look
at the football rankings for this past week. We got Michigan, Washington, Texas, Alabama,
Florida State, Georgia, Ohio State, Oregon, Missouri, Penn State, Ole,
miss Oklahoma, LSU. All of these schools, these the top
(20:25):
thirteen schools are going to be in two conferences next year.
So what is the breakoff? I mean, if you have
the top forty schools leave, does it matter at that point?
They go out from underneath the NCAA. But does anything
really change other than what the football and basketball structures
look like. No, I mean it's already there. We already
(20:47):
have the super conferences. That's literally where we are sitting out.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
You know this, Doug, that those schools, those top thirteen
schools are deploying more money in nil than the vast
majority of anybody else already paying their kids. It's just
not being done over the table. It's still being done
under the table in a way.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
What did you think of Charlie Baker's proposal? Is that
is that along lines that's the eight to ten million
dollars is do you do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I think the proposal as written is nonsense, and while
I appreciate the effort, number one. So let's break down
the proposal the most important parts of it. First part
of the proposal is that schools, in order to be
part of this new division where they get to make
rules and decide what they want to do and contract
(21:38):
directly with their student athletes for nil, have to pay
a minimum of thirty thousand dollars to fifty percent of
the athletes on their at their school, of which twenty
five percent can go to men and twenty five percent
can go to women. So essentially, they have to pay
three million dollars for football or for or men's sports.
(22:01):
But if they do that, they have to pay three
million dollars for women's sports. And if they want to
pay football more, they have to give more to women.
How is that going to work? And why would a
school like Texas who gets to pay football ten million
dollars right now without paying anything to women's sports or
Alabama or anyone else. Ninety seven percent of collective money
(22:22):
goes to men's sports. By the way, we know this
because we run more schools than anybody else. We have
that information. Ninety seven percent goes to men. Why all
of a sudden am I going to be forced to
have to share that money with the women under this
new moniker? And then the second question is if I'm
a football or a basketball player, now You're going to
share even more of the revenue that I'm generating with
(22:45):
non revenue sports, specifically women's sports. Why would I ever
go for that as a football or basketball player. Doesn't
make any sense. We want to get as much money
into our pie if we're generating, and we want as
much of the pie as we can get. Now you're
saying fifty percent has to go to females because of equity.
That's nonsense. That there's no logical economic argument to say
(23:08):
that that is a real system that anybody is going
to go towards. Why wouldn't the SEC and the Big
ten just be like, uh, yeah, we're going to be good.
We're just gonna go do our own thing, and we're
not going to follow that stupid rule because we want
to be part of the nc DOUBLEA. Who gives, who cares?
We can just go do it.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
It's part of the NCUBA as much as the fear
of title nine and the appearance of not you know again,
So much of it is about appearance, you know. They
it's just like any.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I'm sure this A and M cares a lot about
appearances after firing Jimbo.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Fisher they don't. But I'm telling you, like again, administrators,
I mean, how many of these sports programs have had
sports that are canceled Then people go rally to save it,
and they kind of patch it together and save it,
knowing that if it's run like a business, they'd be cut.
They'd all be cut, they lose money. But we do
it be out of fear of Title nine and to
(24:02):
make it look good.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Right. Remember, Title nine doesn't matter if the athletes are employees.
If I made eighty five football players employees, that they
longer factor into my title nine equation, which is why
it actually for the student athlete, we don't want them
to be employees, right, But for the school, Hey, if
I don't have to have eighty five corresponding scholarships. On
(24:26):
the female side, I can maybe balance my budget. There
is no requirement whatsoever. It's the same reason why the
women's basketball coach at Oklahoma State mates a fourth or
fifth of what Mike does on the men's side. Title
nine is equal opportunity, but market rate is I got
(24:47):
to pay the basketball coach, the men's coach a lot
more than the women's coach. Same concept. Maybe you still
have to have the sport, but you know, we can
gut it. We can do whatever we want. They're employees.
One is an ployee when is a student athlete? Won't
matter what. What college athletics doesn't want is they don't
want to have to deal with collective bargaining because you
(25:09):
get to collect the bargaining. Could be that fifty percent
of the money has to go to the football players,
and that is kind of straphic.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
That that can only be corere like they're not they
could ask for fifty percent, they're not getting fifty percent, right, Well.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's a bargaining, right, who's gonna force it? Right? Who's
going to organize them? And if they say we sit,
we got a problem. Well, there's not lockouts in pro sports.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
There are, but the reason that the owners always win
is they have the money. Sure, right, they have they
they have the money, and you're talking about kids. It's
like at the end of the day, like right, like
the NFL deals, the NFL new tenure deal a good deal,
probably not for the top you know, one percent or
five percent, but for the rank and file. And you're
(25:59):
going to have a lot of rank in here that
will say, like, look, if they'll gets here, we got nothing.
So taking something is better than taking nothing regards to
the fact that they're not going to get nothing again, agreed.
So I mean it's one of those it reads really
good to think they could hold out, they could sit out,
(26:21):
But the problem with that is it all looks the
same to me. They all lock out, set out until
somebody says, hey, you're not getting your check so and
oh yeah, by the way, additionally, like they're not unionized yet,
there will be plenty of people that will take whatever
is given. And I would guess you'll have a year
where you'll have some of the best athletes you know,
(26:43):
threatening to sit by the wayside, and they probably won't
because they're already making money and right and they're like,
well I rocked the boat. I'm good and the rank
and file will want to take whatever deals presented to them.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I don't disagree, but it's just a whole other set
of complicated issues. But we're not even there yet. We
got to figure out this first before we get to.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Is there any other part element of it we have
not discussed, you.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Know, I just want to re emphasize that when you
get and this is a warning for the industry, is
that if private equity gets involved, private equity is business.
They want return on their investment. Correct, And so if
you hire a coach and he doesn't work out, you're fired.
(27:30):
You don't get to go spend seventy five million dollars
to buy somebody out and go hire somebody else. Doesn't
work like that. And the vast majority of people in
college athletics, and we know a lot of them, they're
good people, but they work in college athletics not because
they want to work in a revenue environment. They want
it to work in an amateur environment. They're not built,
(27:50):
nor do they have the experience to work in that
type of demanding environment where every dollar counts. And so
unfortunately that's where we're headed. Right where you've got to
be able to perform and this rinky dinky, yeah coach
doesn't work out, I'll just fire him and raise a
whole bunch of money and it doesn't happen. Right, People
want return on their investment, especially if it's a pe firm,
(28:13):
not a you know, billionaire owner. It's not Mark Cuban,
who all right, I'll just go buy my coach out
and go hire somebody else out tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, I think I think that's I think that's the
question is do more kids actually get exploited this way
because you know they they're not as good as advertised
and you get money too soon, and how do you
react to it? I think that's that's kind of the fear,
is what what does it look like to them? It's
(28:41):
the same issue with the multiple transfers, like you get
done playing and all right, who's your school? Who do
you call when you need an actual job? And how
do you adjust to the fact that you're probably going
to make more in college sports than you are with
your first job, maybe in your second job. And that's
the tough adjustment for a lot of people. So that
part to it is, well.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
The simple concept to fix the portal issues, to let
let collective sign multi year agreements and lock people in
right period. In the story, the problem solved if I
could have signed Dylan Gabriel. I had Dylan Gabriel onto
a contract this year Dyllian decided to transfer. If I
had him under a contract for two years and he
breached the contract, I can still sue him, but I
(29:23):
can at least have locked him in for so many years.
And if Brett Vennerable said hey, we want to move
on from Dylan because we want to go work and
have Jackson Arnold start, okay, you still got to pay
Dylan right, that is what it is, or let him
out of his contract.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Jason's fascinating stuff, man, and perfectly timely considering the news
today of the NCAA's proposal. I really appreciate joining me.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, I appreciate you having me, Doug.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
That's it for my discussion with Jason Belzer, an incredibly
fascinating guy. You can find him on social media. That's
at Jason Belzer b e l Z e R. In
the meantime, I appreciate you listening. Remember The Doug Gottlieb
Show is daily three to five eastern twelve two Pacific
on Fox Sport Trading on foxport trade dot Com with
the iHeartRadio app. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all ball
Hey, what a book ame in? I'm Doug, got me.
This is all all. We have part two coming up
for you of Jason Beltzer, and Jason is in addition
to being an attorney and teaching about all of these things,
he's I guess you could say, ahead of the curve
with Nil and his company represents universities as well as athletes.
(00:28):
So it's all part of this bigger conversation. And what's
interesting is this was recorded last week, right the first
week in December. Now the second full week in December,
we get news today that there's a judge in West
Virginia which granted a fourteen day stay on the rulings
(00:50):
for two time transfers, specifically in West Virginia. But now
the NCAA is allowing all student athletes and a second
transfer during this period of time to play. And this
is crazy. I actually feel bad for the NCAA. And
I've been, as most of you know, I've been a
supporter of the idea of amateurism, the idea of educating
(01:12):
more people than would ever get an opportunity. And you
know I understand that with the times and with the
exploding finances and ability to generate more revenue that athletes
student athletes can be taken care of better. But I
also knew what and IO would turn out to be,
which is paid for play. But this is where I
feel really bad for the NCAA. This was a rule
(01:35):
that I can't think of a coach, administrator, assistant coach
didn't want in place where your second transfer. Again, Remember, like,
here's what's bullshit about all this. No one said of
your transfer a second time, you can't play or beyond scholarship,
but you would have to sit for a year, which
(01:57):
there is no negatives there. And if you're a you're
go to your third school. What's the difference in sitting
a year when you didn't sit in junior, first and
second school. But the real craziness to this is schools
voted on this. It was approved and a champion really
behind the scenes by most coat by coaches and by administrators.
(02:18):
Many of the same coaches and administrators, especially coaches who
wanted this push for it were the ones like Matt Brown.
I mean, this is where coaches are so full of
shit that they do themselves in a no justice that
no one believes the word they say. Most of them
are not, But like take Mack Brown. There are quotes
from him saying how the system had to change and
(02:40):
that there needed to be some guardrails in place, especially
for second time transfers. That he has a wide receiver
who's a two time transfer and he wants to play
right away. Unc writes a nasty letter towards the NZA,
and eventually tes Walker gets to play, right I mean,
it's it's it's it's craziness. So now what now the
(03:02):
NCAA is unofficially or officially powerless. I mean again, like,
what what is the purpose of having a governing body
made up of voting members? If you approve a rule
and six months into the rule being in place, the
court comes in like nah. And what it's pushing us
(03:23):
towards is what Jason is discussing in the spot, which
is professionalization of amateur athletics. And I'm going to like,
you'll be able to draw this podcast up anytime you want.
It's already a fucking mess. It's going to be a disaster.
And what's going to happen, as Jason has point out,
is yeah, there'll be some kids that make money, and
(03:45):
agents will make lots of money, and lawyers will make money,
and accountants will make money. But what will happen is
one of two things, and probably both one. Eventually there'll
be some sort of collective bargaining, because that's essentially what's
being said here, right that these are basically non competes.
And but what is the purpose of having a contract
(04:07):
you signed with the school for a scholarship or even
for nil, and yet there's no non competes in them.
What business has that or what scholarship has that? I
don't know, but apparently you have to have a signed
non compete. In order to have a sign non compete,
you're probably gonna have to have some sort of collective bargaining. Well,
here's the thing about collective bargaining. You don't just get
(04:30):
what you want right, like, oh, we want this, we
want that, Like it'll just worked that way. And as
much as we think that schools and the NCAA or whoever,
however the negotiation takes place, well, ACQUI ask to the
student athlete. The truth is, at some point they'll put
their feet down and go, now, we're not doing it.
And here's the problem with it from the student athlete's perspective.
(04:50):
In professional sports, go in track Baseball is said to
have the strongest union, although their last two deals have
not nearly been as strong as the past. Football's union,
for example, cowers constantly to the NFL, and they have
a ten year collective our agreement. Basketball the same. Now,
what most people see is how much money the top
end guys are making, and it's a lot. It's a lot,
(05:13):
but it's all a respective ratio of what they're bringing in.
And it's going to be interesting because you do have
Title nine with Jason addresses in this pod and the
previous pod. You know, you do have this tax exempt
status that college sports operates under, and you have these
lack of noncompetes. But here's the bigger the biggest issue,
(05:34):
I believe, in addition to the fact that nobody wants
to pay taxes and there's Title nine and that's going
to be a mess to kind of sort through, the
biggest issue is that if the players say hey, or
the schools say that this is our offer, take it
or leave it. Do you really think that college football
(05:55):
players and college basketball players are going to walk away
from the offer. Let me give you a hint. The
answer is no, because all of these deals that get
done in any professional support, they focus on the rank
and file because that's the vast majority of the kids,
and so the rank and file will likely be well
(06:18):
compensated across the board to rank and file will get
some sort of extended insurance. After they get done in college,
the rank and file will have in probably numerous benefits
and some guardrails so that they can transfer and not
set out or when they can actually make the nil
or how much academics has to do with it. They
may even have to pay for their own education as
(06:40):
well as the taxes and the benefits they receive. But
if they say no, if the colleges say no, this
is it. You think that again, we're not talking about
the ten to fifteen kids that can go and play
in a G league, or they can go and play
overseas or for overtime eleague. Even if we take that
as the top kids, there are three hundred and sixty
(07:03):
plus Division one schools in men's college basketball. There are
thirteen scholarships a pop. You do the math. You think
all those kids are sitting and not collecting a penny
and not going to school. Yeah, that doesn't happen. Doesn't happen?
Football doesn't hapen in basketball. So we're at a bit
of a crossroads. And as much as this interview was
(07:24):
kind of epic foreshadowing, the foreshadowing is for things that
look to be likely to come. Here's part two of
my discussion with Jason Belzer. When somebody comes to you,
as school comes to you at what do you say,
Just give me your collective, give me how you do it,
and we'll take care of the rest.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah. So, when we still speak to an institution, whether
it's an institution that has an existing collective or one
that doesn't, and I'll give you a great example, two
different examples. We just launched the collective at Syracuse on
behalf of the university of the university that didn't really
have one, Whereas at vanderbil we took over an existing
collective that was a nonprofit and are transforming it into
(08:05):
commercialized collective. When we go to any institution, we say
that there is a total addressable market for nil at
that institution. And what that means is that if we
took every dollar that every student athlete could make at
that school, put it all together, we get a number.
We actually have a formula for figuring that out and
we break that up into three buckets of revenue. Bucket
(08:27):
number one is what we classify as a member. These
are usually fans and alumni that are paying anywhere between
ten to fifty one hundred dollars a month to be
part of a club to have access to content, experiences, merchandise,
and other elements. So no different than when you pay
(08:48):
for your Netflix description or your Costco membership. At Oklahoma
Crimson and Cream, our average member pays forty one dollars
a month to be a member of Crimson and c
and for that we have more than two thousand people
that are part of that membership program. Our belief is
that at every power five we can probably average around
(09:09):
ten thousand people. We do the math on that. At
twenty five bucks a month, that's more than three and
a half million dollars a year in revenue. The second
bucket are what we classify as brands businesses, corporations, local businesses,
regional and state businesses, and then national brands that want
to do real NIL work with student athletes. And then
(09:29):
the third are the donors. Right that's the tail wagging
the dog in NIL right now. And what we do
is instead of just taking the donor money and signing
a kid, and then not giving a shit, we sign
the student athlete to a retainered contract. So at owe
you all eighty five football players, all fifteen men's basketball players,
and all twenty softball players are under a retainer with us.
(09:54):
They owe us a certain number of social media posts.
Every football player at Oklahoma receives a minimum of twenty
four thousand and right in guaranteed money from US, and
because of that, they give us eighteen social media posts,
ten appearances, fifty autographs, as well as usage of their name,
image and likeness. And so what we do is we
(10:14):
sell those assets back into the marketplace. I did a
deal with Danny Stutzman and Taco Bell and Snickers. I
did a deal for every single football, men's and women's
basketball player and softball player at Oe. You with House
Smith restaurant group. I'm sure Doug you made Knowle Smith
directly eaten at his restaurants. Anytime you got Oklahoma. Every
(10:37):
kid got five hundred dollars for two social media posts,
all organic pre sold. That money comes back to the
university or in this case, the collective, not as incremental
revenue to the student athlete, but it comes back into
the budget. We bought the asset from the student athlete,
the student athlete activated the asset with us, and then
(10:58):
we have recouped that money to put back into the collective.
I did a deal with Paramount CBS to promote the
new season of Survivor. We had one hundred and fifty
three student athletes from sixteen different universities, including Oklahoma. We
had kids from LMU and Santa Clara who we work
with all across the country, and they did a social post.
(11:19):
It was sold at a predetermined rate card somewhere between
seventy five to two hundred and fifty dollars per post,
and that was their job for that week or that
month that they were getting compensated by us, and that
money has now since been returned to their respective collective
to be deployed in the future for whatever That is
what the model will look like here period end the
(11:40):
story right when we go to revshare, if a school
is going to go prepurchase the rights of the student athlete,
hopefully we'll be organizations like ours, probably will include mmrs
like lear Field and Playfly that will be going out
and reselling that inventory to brands and businesses as part
of a larger portfolio. No different than selling the power
(12:00):
of the student athlete social media feed to push content,
to push highlights. That's what this is. It's not rocket science.
Just have a lot of different people organizing things in
a lot of different ways, and you need somebody that
can come in and slowly do it. Given enough time,
we would be able to figure it out. You know,
(12:21):
we have forty plus schools, but this thing is moving
so fast that I don't know how quickly we're going
to be able to make it figure it out before
the court's decide or Congress decides to do something stupid.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
What's the downside?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
There is no downside for the student athlete. The downside
is for the coaches, the administrators who are making millions
and millions of dollars right now, who don't want to
lose that money. I mean, at the end of the day,
if there's if tomorrow we were forced to move into
revenue share, then every football coach, every basketball coach is
(12:58):
going to have to take a salary cut, Every administrator
is going to have to take a salary cut. Do
you think those people want that? Maybe some of the
coaches do, right. I think some of the coaches at
this point are just tired. But if you're a lifelong
administrator and you're an AD making a million dollars a
year or whatever it is, do you want to lose
out on that money?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
How many administrators? How many administrators make that kind of one.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
In the Power five? Well, in the Power four, I
don't think there's an administrator in the Power four that's
making less than half a million dollars at this point.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Well, okay, but but but like, look, we're reasonable people.
If you're a you're talking about only afletic vectors. There
is nobody else making athlete out.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, how many football coaches are making ten million dollars?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Do you think that question that the football coach thing
has exploded? The problem is that, just like everywhere else
in life, there's really no middle class, right, And you know,
you're saying administrators when most the administrators don't make anything,
and then even the ads make a million dollars. Considering
how much you're raising and managing and how many years
it takes in the business to get to that place.
(14:04):
It's not like you fell out of bed and you're
making a million. Whereas now you're asking players to players
are going to be coached by coaches who make less
money than them in some cases, and there is no
to this point, there is no true obligating contract, you
know where. I mean, one of the things that I
(14:26):
think you're pretty realistic about is if you're really an employee,
it's not all a win for the student athlete, right
because there are there are some there's gonna be some
guardrails there. And I'm just wondering, like, obviously the Olympic
sports are going to get are going to really struggle,
especially at the non SEC Big ten schools. They just
(14:47):
don't They just don't have the money there. The schools
like the Vanderbilts, the Northwesterns, they're going to continue to struggle,
I think. But then the other part who it is,
will will this change the transfer portal and the ability
for players to essentially become free agents at a drop
(15:09):
of the hat.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Well, So, if you're a student athlete, and I think
you and I are on the same page with this,
we don't want them as employees, and a student athlete
shouldn't want to be an employee because then you're going
to number one, your tuition is going to be taxable income.
And many schools, let's just say you're going to play
a usc they're going to say, okay, we just won't
(15:33):
pay your tuition and you will give you one hundred
thousand dollars and you can pay your tuition yourself. Right,
So that's number one. Number two, you can be fired,
and that's not something people want. What student athletes want
in an optimal world is a revenue share without being
deemed that employee.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Give us a cut, right, they want, right, you want
the best of both worlds. But again that doesn't. You
have a lot of people in your position pushing towards
them employee model, and they they're not thinking about the
downside too. It.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Well, the lawyers don't care. The lawyers just want to
get paid. I mean, look at this lawsuit that was
filed at Oregon last week. We know we just said,
you just said it that Olympic sports, particularly women's sports,
are in deep shit right when this the flips. And
yet you have a school like Oregon that can probably
(16:24):
afford to do these things. Here are people suing not
realizing that this new era of what's going to happen
is going to be the worst thing that ever happens
to women's sports. We are at peak women's sports in
this country. I can tell you that the Olympic committees
and the individual governing bodies are deathly afraid of what
(16:47):
may happen. How are we going to be able to
have a competitive Olympic program? Right? That's why these you know,
organizations were put together in the first place. If Olympic
sports are going to get slashed because these schools can't afford,
it just doesn't make sense. And so no school that
can make money from their football program is going to
not play high level football, but they will immediately go
(17:10):
and cut whatever sports they need to cut to be
able to finance it. And I wouldn't be surprised if
we have scenarios where some school plays football and basketball
on the men's side and then they got a couple
of women's sports and every men's tennis and golf and
it's gone. Who needs it? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I just don't know if that ever happens, right, Like,
I understand that it's trending that way, but to get
to that place, you know, you know, how like it
such is the NCAA. But these schools, they can't stomach
cutting these sports. They can't stomach the bad press. I
mean they want to.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Says these as student athletes are employees and you must
collectively bargain. They will not have a choice. They will
have to come up with this money. I don't know.
Can they go tap their endowments. There are big rules
around that, but sure if all of a sudden, I
got to go loan some money against my endowment potentially.
But that's why I believe that private equity will play
(18:04):
a big role in this. In fact, they'll come to
the rescue. Then that's what it is. I mean, what
happens if this goes down and the Saudi's come in
and they say, yeah, well we'll loan you guys a
billion dollars, we'll take care of it. What happens if
they lose this Johnson case and there's treble damages where
they they're going to come up with the multi billion
dollar damages and then have to figure out how to
(18:26):
go support their other programs at the same time while
having to Each school is going to have to go
pay because all the schools are co defendants, so all
the power for schools are going to have to come
up with their one hundred million dollars to pay the damages,
and then they're also going to have to go figure
out how to pay their athletes as in revenue share,
and they're going to have to figure out how to
(18:46):
support their other sports. That is what is about to happen.
That's why I say we are in a tumultuous period.
But what is going to happen is going to be
violent because there's going to be some really tough decisions
and I don't know, maybe Congress bails out college sports
and they say, hey, we're going to give everybody a
(19:06):
billion dollars to figure this out. You're right, but I
wouldn't bet on that.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
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Speaker 1 (19:26):
You mentioned the tax free status. I know that that's
a big scary, scary word to lose. You know, with
all of these schools is the ability to to to
not have to pay taxes on the revenue. And then
and then there's the there's the athletes are going to
have to pay taxes. There's the how do you make
them pay for the education? Piece? Right, it's like a
(19:47):
memory thing. That part gets really kind of murky. So
are you of the mindset that there's going to be
a breakoff or does this keep everybody together? But the
breakoff is just in schools that can't really compete because
they don't have the money.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, what is the breakoff? Right? I mean, go look
at the football rankings for this past week. We got Michigan, Washington, Texas, Alabama,
Florida State, Georgia, Ohio State, Oregon, Missouri, Penn State, Ole,
miss Oklahoma, LSU. All of these schools, these the top
(20:25):
thirteen schools are going to be in two conferences next year.
So what is the breakoff? I mean, if you have
the top forty schools leave, does it matter at that point?
They go out from underneath the NCAA. But does anything
really change other than what the football and basketball structures
look like. No, I mean it's already there. We already
(20:47):
have the super conferences. That's literally where we are sitting out.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
You know this, Doug, that those schools, those top thirteen
schools are deploying more money in nil than the vast
majority of anybody else already paying their kids. It's just
not being done over the table. It's still being done
under the table in a way.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
What did you think of Charlie Baker's proposal? Is that
is that along lines that's the eight to ten million
dollars is do you do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I think the proposal as written is nonsense, and while
I appreciate the effort, number one. So let's break down
the proposal the most important parts of it. First part
of the proposal is that schools, in order to be
part of this new division where they get to make
rules and decide what they want to do and contract
(21:38):
directly with their student athletes for nil, have to pay
a minimum of thirty thousand dollars to fifty percent of
the athletes on their at their school, of which twenty
five percent can go to men and twenty five percent
can go to women. So essentially, they have to pay
three million dollars for football or for or men's sports.
(22:01):
But if they do that, they have to pay three
million dollars for women's sports. And if they want to
pay football more, they have to give more to women.
How is that going to work? And why would a
school like Texas who gets to pay football ten million
dollars right now without paying anything to women's sports or
Alabama or anyone else. Ninety seven percent of collective money
(22:22):
goes to men's sports. By the way, we know this
because we run more schools than anybody else. We have
that information. Ninety seven percent goes to men. Why all
of a sudden am I going to be forced to
have to share that money with the women under this
new moniker? And then the second question is if I'm
a football or a basketball player, now You're going to
share even more of the revenue that I'm generating with
(22:45):
non revenue sports, specifically women's sports. Why would I ever
go for that as a football or basketball player. Doesn't
make any sense. We want to get as much money
into our pie if we're generating, and we want as
much of the pie as we can get. Now you're
saying fifty percent has to go to females because of equity.
That's nonsense. That there's no logical economic argument to say
(23:08):
that that is a real system that anybody is going
to go towards. Why wouldn't the SEC and the Big
ten just be like, uh, yeah, we're going to be good.
We're just gonna go do our own thing, and we're
not going to follow that stupid rule because we want
to be part of the nc DOUBLEA. Who gives, who cares?
We can just go do it.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
It's part of the NCUBA as much as the fear
of title nine and the appearance of not you know again,
So much of it is about appearance, you know. They
it's just like any.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I'm sure this A and M cares a lot about
appearances after firing Jimbo.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Fisher they don't. But I'm telling you, like again, administrators,
I mean, how many of these sports programs have had
sports that are canceled Then people go rally to save it,
and they kind of patch it together and save it,
knowing that if it's run like a business, they'd be cut.
They'd all be cut, they lose money. But we do
it be out of fear of Title nine and to
(24:02):
make it look good.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Right. Remember, Title nine doesn't matter if the athletes are employees.
If I made eighty five football players employees, that they
longer factor into my title nine equation, which is why
it actually for the student athlete, we don't want them
to be employees, right, But for the school, Hey, if
I don't have to have eighty five corresponding scholarships. On
(24:26):
the female side, I can maybe balance my budget. There
is no requirement whatsoever. It's the same reason why the
women's basketball coach at Oklahoma State mates a fourth or
fifth of what Mike does on the men's side. Title
nine is equal opportunity, but market rate is I got
(24:47):
to pay the basketball coach, the men's coach a lot
more than the women's coach. Same concept. Maybe you still
have to have the sport, but you know, we can
gut it. We can do whatever we want. They're employees.
One is an ployee when is a student athlete? Won't
matter what. What college athletics doesn't want is they don't
want to have to deal with collective bargaining because you
(25:09):
get to collect the bargaining. Could be that fifty percent
of the money has to go to the football players,
and that is kind of straphic.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
That that can only be corere like they're not they
could ask for fifty percent, they're not getting fifty percent, right, Well.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's a bargaining, right, who's gonna force it? Right? Who's
going to organize them? And if they say we sit,
we got a problem. Well, there's not lockouts in pro sports.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
There are, but the reason that the owners always win
is they have the money. Sure, right, they have they
they have the money, and you're talking about kids. It's
like at the end of the day, like right, like
the NFL deals, the NFL new tenure deal a good deal,
probably not for the top you know, one percent or
five percent, but for the rank and file. And you're
(25:59):
going to have a lot of rank in here that
will say, like, look, if they'll gets here, we got nothing.
So taking something is better than taking nothing regards to
the fact that they're not going to get nothing again, agreed.
So I mean it's one of those it reads really
good to think they could hold out, they could sit out,
(26:21):
But the problem with that is it all looks the
same to me. They all lock out, set out until
somebody says, hey, you're not getting your check so and
oh yeah, by the way, additionally, like they're not unionized yet,
there will be plenty of people that will take whatever
is given. And I would guess you'll have a year
where you'll have some of the best athletes you know,
(26:43):
threatening to sit by the wayside, and they probably won't
because they're already making money and right and they're like,
well I rocked the boat. I'm good and the rank
and file will want to take whatever deals presented to them.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I don't disagree, but it's just a whole other set
of complicated issues. But we're not even there yet. We
got to figure out this first before we get to.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Is there any other part element of it we have
not discussed, you.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Know, I just want to re emphasize that when you
get and this is a warning for the industry, is
that if private equity gets involved, private equity is business.
They want return on their investment. Correct, And so if
you hire a coach and he doesn't work out, you're fired.
(27:30):
You don't get to go spend seventy five million dollars
to buy somebody out and go hire somebody else. Doesn't
work like that. And the vast majority of people in
college athletics, and we know a lot of them, they're
good people, but they work in college athletics not because
they want to work in a revenue environment. They want
it to work in an amateur environment. They're not built,
(27:50):
nor do they have the experience to work in that
type of demanding environment where every dollar counts. And so
unfortunately that's where we're headed. Right where you've got to
be able to perform and this rinky dinky, yeah coach
doesn't work out, I'll just fire him and raise a
whole bunch of money and it doesn't happen. Right, People
want return on their investment, especially if it's a pe firm,
(28:13):
not a you know, billionaire owner. It's not Mark Cuban,
who all right, I'll just go buy my coach out
and go hire somebody else out tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, I think I think that's I think that's the
question is do more kids actually get exploited this way
because you know they they're not as good as advertised
and you get money too soon, and how do you
react to it? I think that's that's kind of the fear,
is what what does it look like to them? It's
(28:41):
the same issue with the multiple transfers, like you get
done playing and all right, who's your school? Who do
you call when you need an actual job? And how
do you adjust to the fact that you're probably going
to make more in college sports than you are with
your first job, maybe in your second job. And that's
the tough adjustment for a lot of people. So that
part to it is, well.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
The simple concept to fix the portal issues, to let
let collective sign multi year agreements and lock people in
right period. In the story, the problem solved if I
could have signed Dylan Gabriel. I had Dylan Gabriel onto
a contract this year Dyllian decided to transfer. If I
had him under a contract for two years and he
breached the contract, I can still sue him, but I
(29:23):
can at least have locked him in for so many years.
And if Brett Vennerable said hey, we want to move
on from Dylan because we want to go work and
have Jackson Arnold start, okay, you still got to pay
Dylan right, that is what it is, or let him
out of his contract.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Jason's fascinating stuff, man, and perfectly timely considering the news
today of the NCAA's proposal. I really appreciate joining me.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, I appreciate you having me, Doug.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
That's it for my discussion with Jason Belzer, an incredibly
fascinating guy. You can find him on social media. That's
at Jason Belzer b e l Z e R. In
the meantime, I appreciate you listening. Remember The Doug Gottlieb
Show is daily three to five eastern twelve two Pacific
on Fox Sport Trading on foxport trade dot Com with
the iHeartRadio app. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all ball
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