All Ball - Baylor Women’s HC Nicki Collen on Kim Mulkey Critics, Defending Caitlin Clark, Women’s CBB Parity - All Ball with Doug Gottlieb

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey wan to welcome in. I'm done, Gotti. This is
all ball man. You're gonna love the content we got
coming out of the Final Four. Before we get to
the men's Final four, I want to do something really cool.
I want to bring in Nikki Collin. Nikki is the
head coach of Baylor. I have known her since I
met her on my visit to Marquette. She started her
career at Purdue, playing the Final four, transfer to Marquette

(00:28):
and actually, if you look through, if you go way back,
Nikki back when she was the head coach of the
Atlanta Dream was one of my guests in the first
year of the All Ball podcast. So we caught up
with Nikki shortly after after the Iowa upset of lsqu

(00:50):
When you took the job, would you honestly.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Think what did I honestly think?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah? Like you think, like what am I getting into?
Like you walk in, I mean you've been doing this,
You've been doing this a long time as an assistant
and then going to the w n B A you
could get a job as Baylor's head coach. Like what
what do you think the job would be like? And
maybe what is it like in comparison? To that.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, probably, I'm probably pretty can say now that I
was pretty naive.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
I think that you get you get to our age,
and you think you've been through it and you're you're
confident kind of in who you are and what you do,
and I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
I don't think I quite knew just the.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
How it would feel, the comparisons, the expectations, the you know,
because I think when you when you're in this chair,
regardless of who you're replacing, I think you you always
think that you're going to put higher expectations on yourself
that any than any exterior expectations that might be out

(02:05):
there or feelings. But I think that the uniqueness of
the timing when I took the job, within i don't know,
six weeks, we found out OU and Texas were leaving
the Big twelve, and it was, oh, my gosh, are
we even going to have a league? Are we going
to be Power five? What's going to happen to us?

(02:25):
Nil kicked off that July one, but really has taken
on a life of its own in terms of what
that looks like with collectives and everything else. And so
I can't even say that the job I took is
the same job that I'm doing right now because of
those things, because of NIL, because of conference realignment, because

(02:46):
of everything going on, and so I think I think
it's been more difficult than I thought.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
I think there you know, I.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Think there have been moments where I have had the
what did I do? And at the same time, at
the end of the day, you know, me as well
as anyone on this front, like I freaking love basketball
and I love people, and so at the end of
the day, like I still get to do something that
I really really love. And I've I've had to learn

(03:13):
to adapt and I've had to you know, toughen up
a little bit and really believe in kind of who
I am and what I do, and to the point
that I think, I think my authenticity sticks out because
I've kind of unapologetically said this is who we are
and this is how we're going to do it, and
you know, it can still be great.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
The part that I I was I was like trying
to get to but I know to be true, as
the job changed, right, It's like, you know, there was
a time obviously in the sport where everything was Tennessee
and everything was you count and then it became became Baylor,

(03:58):
and you know, when I don't know, was it when
Dawn took over at South Carolina. But now it's like
it's kind of an arms race. But what's interesting about
the sport is now there's like, I don't know, eight
to twelve kind of like ten pole programs that are
all really competitive. And so that's just very, very different.

(04:22):
And then you factor in all the other stuff like
and for people who don't know, obviously, you know, you
were at you guys were at with under tomm You're
at Louisville and you guys were competitive then in Arkansas then,
But it does feel like, I don't know, there's more.
When was the moment where women's college basketball maybe not

(04:44):
true parody, but there became this kind of spread of
competitiveness where more teams had a shot.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
I think the transfer portal was a big part of that.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
You know, I think when you start talking about you know,
there was a time when Yukon wasn't going to lose anyone,
Like once you chose Yukon, it was it was like
it was for life, you were going to bleed blue.
And you know, I think you're starting to see players
as as social media has picked up how as players

(05:22):
are are less willing to wait for things to come
to fruition like there they just there are very few
people that really are going to wait, like they're either
going to get it, you know, in some parts their
first year if not, you know, they they see the
writing on the wall one way or the other, and

(05:42):
you know, so I think that's a huge part of
it when when players stop saying I'm gonna wait my turn,
because I think generationally, you know, you chose a school
when I was coming out, maybe not that you you
never thought, oh, I'm going to start as a freshman.
You thought, let me choose a place where by the

(06:04):
time I'm a junior, like maybe I'm going to get
minutes my first couple of years. But you know the
other point guards a junior, so she's going to graduate
and then I'm gonna it's gonna be my.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Turn, right. That was That was that was the play, right,
I mean that was yeah, like no one.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
No one wants to wait their turn.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
No one wants to you had you had you had
a choice coming out, so like when you came out
and you chose Purdue, right, So when I came out,
like the reason I chose not her name was they
had a junior had more white, but I thought, I mean,
I was told I could beat him out, and I did.
You know, but usually you only wanted to go somewhere
where there was one other person in your position. And

(06:39):
then most people, you know, unless you were you know,
unless you you manipulate the situation. Right, you sat for
two years, and you're back for two years, and you
start for two years, and and transferring still existed, you know,
but it's now the I think that yea, the poort
where you don't have to I don't know if it's
the points you don't have to sit a year that

(07:00):
change a lot of stuff. And then make very point
about social media like page backers like I know who
page like, I don't follow women's basketball like I know
who she was before she got to Yukon, and social
media I think has probably helped the women's game more
than it's helped the men's game.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
I think I think it has. I think it's given
rise to.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Obviously we you know, we have heroes and villains and
all those things, partially because of social media, but just
in general, you have name recognition. You look at a
Jada Williams at Arizona who you know, Gosh had probably
one hundred thousand followers at fifteen. And you know, I
think is someone that's making true nil bank, like literally

(07:45):
true nil bank. But you're hearing those things and you're
seeing you know, I will tell you that even in
the five years that I went from the college game
to the pro game and back, you know, I was
hearing names. But I remember going out on the circuit
for the first time and being back in the gym
watching these sixteen seventeen year old young women play. And

(08:10):
I'm seeing, you know, all of these pop up you know,
you overtime, rose up, courtside films, you name it, like
there's anyone with a camera, you know, and a website.
And I'm recognizing that, you know, I've watched these kids.
I've seen these highlights. Like I still remember one of

(08:32):
the first games I ever saw was Team Elite against
Cal Swish and it was Jadaen and Juju against Flage,
you know, and it was court was packed, There were
cameras at every end, there was throat slashing, there was
you know, I mean, there just was so much going on,

(08:52):
and I thought, Wow, this is crazy. Like and you
saw players play really well. It's like Flage was unbelievable
in that game, you know. But but then after the game,
you're like, I was at that game and I'm watching
highlights of the game, and they were posting highlights of
kids that were.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Like three for twenty. Yeah, but the highlights you know,
see you.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Know, Like it's kind of so we've we've created in
some ways these heroes, but we've also in some ways,
I don't want to say, created a monster, but this
whole idea of even with young people, we've created these
expectations that they're not human in some ways. Like I'm like, wow,
that's not the same game I watched. You know, Yes,
those are the three plays that she made, but what

(09:41):
about the seven turnovers? What about you know how she
got blitzed at the defensive end, And so, you know,
I think it puts sometimes these players in tough position
where like people have only seen the highlights, you know,
and all of a sudden, they're they're playing on a
national stage and and is amazing as Juju is, which

(10:01):
she is unbelievable, and she's just going to get better
in her poison strength and you name it, you know
it is remarkable, but she has ten turnover games, you know,
like she has games where it's it's a challenge for
her still, but but it's you know, that just makes it.
It makes it tough because she has to be juju

(10:22):
every game.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
So let's let's go back. You take the job, and
you come out of the w and like, you know,
it's when you've coached at the highest level professionally, like
you know what you're doing, and yet now you're at
the college game and you know, in Waco, Texas, nobody

(10:45):
thinks you know what you're doing in comparison to the woman, right,
I mean it's like I actually kind of know know this.
But what was the adjustment like to the college game
in terms of, again, how you thought it would be
and how it ended up being. And when I'm getting

(11:07):
at more is in terms of you know, offensive defense,
Like again, you and I would love this thing, you
know you and at the WNBA level you're running the
highest level of offensive stuff. What was it like in
comparison what you thought it would be like in implementing
what you wanted to do.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
I think, you know, spending most of my career in college,
I think I wasn't surprised. I think there have been
coaches that have bounced from the pro game to college
and probably not recognize how much teaching it takes.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
You know.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
It's it's so easy when you're coaching pros. I don't
care if they're twenty four or thirty four. But and
even with that, there's there's a huge difference in basketball
IQ and stuff. But you know, you really at the
pro level, you can talk and walk through and really
get people to understand. You know, they they've heard the terminology, Hey,

(12:03):
we're going to top block Simon, and we're gonna we're
going to chase on flares and you know, we're we're
going to be in these actions. And you know, you
spend so much time on the pros just talking about
actions because you play so many games that you're not
going to like walk through everybody's every set, you know,
and what they call it, you know, because everyone's playbook
is so deep and and so it's it's really about

(12:25):
what are we doing on key players? Personnel driven? What
are we doing on key actions?

Speaker 1 (12:31):
You know.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
But you get back to the college game and I
remember one of my first practices and I started asking
the question we were watching film and and I, you know,
I asked the question, like when do you go to
for one? And the answer was like there was one player.
They even could tell me what two for one was,

(12:54):
let alone, like when you would go you know, and
it's it's a unique thing in the college game because
until the fourth quarter of the clock doesn't stop, you know,
under a minute, and so you have to think about
that because you can manipulate the clock more in terms
of you know, you can think I just went two
for one because I scored with thirty eight seconds to go,

(13:14):
but the team can not take the ball out of
bounds until there's thirty one seconds and your two for
one is gone. So you know, it's there are things
that are different in the rules. But you know, I
think I I thought I would be spending a lot
of time teaching, and it was what I was looking

(13:34):
forward to loving the game, you know, it was like,
I'm going to really get to mold in shape and teach.
And it's not that I don't get to do that,
but I do think the college game has become in
some ways similar to the pro game in terms of
like you spend the majority of year time managing people
and managing expectations and making sure kids are going to

(13:57):
class and staying out of trouble, and you know, you're
recruiting twenty four to seven and you know, so because
of that, I think, you know, you're you're still doing
a lot of the same things, but you're doing it
with players who you have to get them to understand
what a top block is, you know.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I mean, I think.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
You you probably could pull one hundred college women's coaches
and I'm not sure that seventy five could tell you
what a top block is, you know, because it's just
that the terminology isn't the same. Like there's just this
language of the pro game that trickles down internationally and
the NBA, and you know, so we just talk about actions,

(14:42):
you know, and and a lot of people will run them.
They just don't they may call it something different, or
they don't understand or you know, our kids had never
heard of tagging the roll or drop coverage or you know.
I mean, it's just you there's there's all these different things.
And so I think I thought I would do more coaching.
I really really thought I would do more coaching than

(15:03):
I do. I really do a lot more parenting, mentoring,
you know, making kids accountable, like all of those things
that you know.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
I just there's less basketball.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
I feel like in the pro game, like eighty percent
of your job is coaching and twenty percent and everything else.
And I feel like in the college game, twenty percent
of your job is coaching and eighty percent is everything else.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
And I do not think I thought that that would
be the case.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Comparison is a thief for joy, right, let's see, Yes,
that's the saying. Last year you had a bunch of injuries.
And it's interesting, like you know, men's programs have injuries,
but women's programs and you know, like it's I remember
reading I think it was around when we were in

(15:55):
college or just after we were in college. It was
like Sports Illustrated article about how because of the build,
women's bodies are more susceptible to an acl tair and like,
you know, obviously you had a bad run on it
last year. What's that like to be building your program
and starting to get close to where you wanted to
be and Kim wins national championship and there's all that

(16:19):
attention there. What how how are you able to like
emotionally handle the I emotionally handled the fact that everyone
is going to make that comparison fair unfair.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, I'll tell you, like I had to learn really
really quickly, and I didn't necessarily I could probably say
it and maybe not feel it. You know, when when
mac rodes hired me, you know, I think he he
did a good job. But at the same time, you know,

(16:54):
he had to tell me, like, if you are going
to live in this space, He's like, you know, the
only thing that's going to keep you from accomplishing everything
that you're capable of accomplishing here is is worrying about
what other people think, worrying about that comparison. He's like,
if you spend any time comparing yourself, you know, he said,

(17:18):
that's the only thing that's going to hold you back.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
You know, he really was.

Speaker 3 (17:22):
Very very aggressively clear on that, you know, and he
he has done such a good job, as has doctor Livingstone.
Are our president of saying like you're the right person
for Baylor and we know it, and we're here to
support you and how can we help you? Because I
think they knew that that was a tough thing to feel,

(17:47):
that that level of comparison. You know, I think in
year one. It was year two was really interesting for me,
Like I felt actually super proud last year because you know,
we we turned over almost the entire roster.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
I mean when I got the job that first year.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
We certainly lost some players to the portal, but we
kept the key ones. We kept Melissa Smith, we kept
Queen Eggbow, we kept Sarah Andrews. Like we had a
really good group of seven players. We only had seven,
but we had a really good group. We had one
postsub when guards up, everybody played. We didn't have a

(18:27):
lot of like issues because of it. You know, it's
being upset was there not playing. And then I felt
like a combination at the end of the year of
Sarah Andrews breaking her hand but playing through it and
hitting the wrong team at the wrong time, you know,
Like I was just disappointed because I felt like that
team had the ability to compete in the final four
win it.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
I don't know, but like compete, And so I just.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Felt a little bit like hollow from this idea that
we didn't accomplish. But maybe what we were capable, what
our roster was capable of last year with our injuries,
with dre Ward's not getting eligible. You know, I kind
of felt like we had done as good a job
as anyone in the country in terms of playing freshmen,

(19:10):
you know, winning on the road at Texas, winning on
the road at Iowa State, you know, having top twenty
five wins, you know that, staying with Connecticut for two
and a half quarters at Connecticut and the NCAA tournament
in the second round.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Like, I just had a lot of pride for the
direction we were headed, you know.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
And so but do people but do people share in that?

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Probably some did and some didn't. I think there were people.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
That really understood the program and understood a how talented
the group I inherited was, but b that there were
so few of them, you know, and that they were graduating,
you know, and that they were both going to be
first round draft picks. Therefore, you know, it wasn't like
Melissa or Queen, We're going to use their fifth year
and come back and use their code year. And so

(20:01):
because of that, I think people knew that the cupboard
was empty quickly here.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
You know, there was.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
Only Sarah Andrews was the only young player in the
last two classes that she had signed here, and so
there it was a it had to be a little
bit of a rebuild. And so I think there were
people that knew, did the fringe fans that the fans
that got used to just winning every year? And would
those players have left if if coach Molki had stayed,

(20:27):
absolutely not, they would have.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
They would have been here. You know, we wouldn't have
had a seven player roster.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
You know, she probably would have had an eleven or
twelve player roster and they would have been really, really good.
But I think the nature of change, you know, one
player followed other players just you know, were like, I'm
going to go out on my own. I don't know
this person. She seems great, but you know, this is
my last year. I have two years left or whatever,
and and I don't want to take the chance.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
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Speaker 1 (21:09):
What it's interesting is I've never and and you know,
somebody is a job comes open, and inherently, you know,
all the kids go in the portal. I've never understood,
and I understand there's a limited time with the portal,
but we all know that there's there's ways to manipulate
that thing, you know, And I just never understood this

(21:29):
idea that And again I don't know you're every specific
of every girl that left, but it's like, why wouldn't
you just see what it's like, you know, see what
the workouts are like, you know, like you did come
to Baylor. And I don't mean that just specifically you.
I mean that too. I mean I've thought that with
any job that I would get, which is you know,
you're like I know everybody says it, but I mean it.

(21:52):
Obviously you don't want to keep everybody, and you do
want people who you have a relationship with. I mean,
it's the same thing sometimes with coaching have But I
think it's interesting on how players. You know, it's like, hey, look,
I know what I'm doing. You were you're gonna play.
You came to Baylor to play, Like we're still in

(22:12):
the same league, We're still competing against same competition, same tradition,
the same history. Granted, like if you're gonna go play
for Kim, I get it, like you came to Baylor
to play for Kim, But otherwise, like, why wouldn't I
guess I don't really understand that total mention.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
I think there were.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
Different reasons for different kids, you know, And I think
that's the that's the part that you know, you and
I both transferred, so like we kind of understand and
for different reasons, you know. But I think with the players,
I inherited the beauty of you know, Melissa Smith and
and a lot of it the beauty of Jordan Lewis.

(22:49):
Kids that Jordan hadn't even signed, but you know, they
I knew their AU coaches. At least I had been
in the college game enough to have some relationship. Maybe
not as much as as some people, but you know,
a big part of Melissa Smith staying and being really
committed really early to kind of finishing at Baylor, having success,

(23:12):
winning a national championship as a freshman, you know, having
won back to back to back Big twelve championships and
wanting to close that chapter out.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
But it was her AAU coach going, hey, like you
want to be a pro?

Speaker 3 (23:26):
They you just you know, I just remember him saying,
like Melissa got an angel dropped in her lap, Like
this is what you want, Like she's going to open up,
She's going to get you off the block. She's going
to get you on more ball screens and two man
actions rather than just overloaded ball screen feed the post
type of stuff.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
And so you know, I don't.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
I mean I had to have a long conversation with Melissa,
but I think she was bought in because she already
had people in her circle saying, wow, this is a
great thing for you. You know, Jordan Lewis was the same way.
She played for our honor with Central Florida Elite, and
we had recruited as kids and in the past, and
it was just like, hey, Jordan, this is you already

(24:08):
have an undergraduate degree, you have a master's degree, like
you were going to Baylor to win and to learn
to be a pro, and like this is perfect. You know,
you're I mean, Jordan just took post back classes anyways,
I mean, how many more degrees could she get? And so,
you know, for them, I was I was an easy
yes too. And there were there were ones that I questioned.

(24:30):
You know, we had a guard that would have been
phenomenal in our system that had already transferred in had
been sitting out that year because she transferred at the semester,
and you know, it was.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
It was like, you came, You're.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
A You're a five to six guard who's going to
be fantastic in drags and step ups in early secondary actions.
You're gonna be good in pistols because you can shoot it.
You know, like this is a perfect system for you. You
came to Baylor to win, and you came to Baylor,
but you know, you came to play in a very
post dominant offense where you were going to come down

(25:04):
and probably throw it to Listen Queen, you know, and
I'm going to put you in actions with Listen Queen,
you know. And so I just I just think sometimes
they listen to other people, they listen to the wrong voices,
and so, you know, and then there are other kids
that were down to like I've got one year left,
I've already got my Baylor degree. And you know, I

(25:27):
was really honest, Like I was very very honest with
every kid I met with, like I don't want you
to leave.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
I want you to stay.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
There were there were but you know, hey, if there's
a place like if you haven't played many minutes here
and you think I'm the person that's going to give
you minutes, like I just wanted to be really clear, like,
if there's somewhere where you think you can go play
thirty minutes a game, and that's what you want at
this point in your college career, then you should absolutely
do it. But I also left the door open for

(25:56):
all of them to return, like, hey, you've still got
a skip here. I'm not offended that you want to
go see what else is out there, talk to other
coaches that had recruited you in high school before you
chose Baylor, And so I just tried to be really
really direct and really honest and you know, give people
those opportunities to figure it out, you know, and everyone

(26:18):
that went went out and tested it left, you know,
no one like later said Okay, I want to come back.
But I also think that you know, I've seen those players,
moon Erson and other other kids that that chose to leave,
But I've stayed in contact with you know that that
you know, I didn't offend because I just was really

(26:40):
really honest with them, whether it was we need you,
we want you, versus hey, like I don't know that
you're suddenly going to play more than you did this
past year, but it's going to look different, I hope
it'll feel different.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
When was the point that you felt like it was
completely your program?

Speaker 2 (27:02):
I would say this year.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
You know, I really feel like over the course of
the summer, you know, we got the opportunity to go
overseas and kind of have that experience starting practice early,
you know, really implementing stuff.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
I mean, it started to turn last year, and.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
I will I will say even our first year, like
I felt like our returners were bought in, absolutely bought in.
I think they they were really happy with with how
we were doing. But I would say this year, when
all of a sudden, we're opening the season in the
second game of the year, We're playing a top five

(27:45):
team in Utah, and we're beating them, playing our game
with pace, with spacing, with you know, like it was
It wasn't just because the two previous years we had
gotten better as the season had gone along, But I
felt like at the beginning, when you're playing those marquee

(28:06):
matchups in November and December, losing to Michigan, losing to Maryland,
you know, we had never like kind of gotten over
the hump on those early season top twenty five, top
ten matchups, and I felt like it was like a
little bit of a defining moment when we were able
to beat a top five team and it was the
last time that that Utah team was fully healthy, you know,

(28:30):
was the team that was a preseason packed twelve champion,
was a preseason you know, like from there, they had
their their point guard got a concussion and she missed
six weeks and then there's seventeen points a game. Wing
you know, injured her broke her foot or something two
weeks later. So that was the last time that Utah
was really full strength. And so it was in that

(28:53):
moment where I saw us play with passion and poise
and you know, tempo and lots of different players scoring,
and we were you know, we had more assists than Utah,
you know, who is a national leader every year in
assisted baskets. You know that I felt like, okay, we've
figured this out a little bit, like this is who
we are. We're going to play fast, we're going to

(29:13):
share the ball, we're gonna you know, there's just going
to be amazing energy and and you know, we got
after it defensively. You know, so I felt like early
this year we just kind of started to say like this,
this is who we are. And this is how it looks,
you know, and we want to assist on like between
sixty five and seventy percent of our baskets. So, you know,

(29:36):
I think I think that's when I saw it really
really start to unfold.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
To go into Texas. You know, you're underfeed to start
the year. You've beaten, You've beaten Miami, wasn't didn't end
up maybe as good as as people thought they could be,
but you're you know, you're undef you had your role
into Texas. Texas is good and it's Texas and he's
obviously a big time coach. Well, uh, what was that

(30:03):
like to roll in there and get a win? You know,
I was really kind of your first big, big twelve win,
maybe your biggest win at that point of the year.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, I think, you know it was.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
We've I've been lucky enough to say that I've won
three times at Moody and so playing in Austin has
been really good for us. And uh, I think that
I always feel good there because for some reason, Sarah
Andrews loves to play there and whether it was the
old old arena or or the new one these last

(30:41):
two years, I just think she's played with unbelievable poison
presence in that building and seems to like it just
really seems to like playing there. And I think our
young guys that were freshmen last year that went in
there and won against all odds in February a year ago,
just had a different confidence at that point. I think

(31:03):
we went in there really really confident. But I thought
our prep post Christmas was really really good as well.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
And so hard. But for I don't know how you
feel like I always feel like Christmas it's just hard, man,
just because you kind of have a rhythm and a flow,
and yeah, maybe you need a break from each other
for a day or two, but it can screw you
up because.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Well and that's your fear too, like you're coming back.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
Texas snuck a game in, you know, they came back
earlier and had a tune up game. And by tune up,
I mean they played Jackson State, who you know has
just owned the swack you know, the last few years
and has been a team that isn't out playing thirteen
power five teams in the non conference and going one

(31:53):
in twelve or zero and thirteen like they have played
at a high level. And so that was my greatest
fear was out of break. You have the downtime. You know,
as much as you say do something like even if
you don't pick up a basketball, like go for a walk,
you know they aren't. You know, they're eating Christmas cookies
and you know all all the things that you do
over a Christmas break, and and then you don't have

(32:16):
a tune up game.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
So you know, you do worry. You worry in that situation.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
You worry like, hey, we're opening the season against the
team picked to win the conference and it's at Moody
and it's on Fox. You know, like it's it couldn't
have been a bigger stage. But I will say the
thing about this team this year is they they enjoyed
the big moments. They absolutely tended to play their best

(32:45):
when the when the bright lights were on. You know,
it's I'd love to say that all the time, Like
our preparation dictated, you know, how we were going to
step out on the court. I think we had some
players this season that were way better gamers than they
were practice players, and that's obviously frustrating as a coach.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
But at the same.

Speaker 3 (33:04):
Time, like when the lights came on, you know, they
they tended to be ready to go. They tended to
be dialed in. They listen, they're they're sharper.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Were you a good were you a good practice I
was a terrible practice player.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Oh see, that was the opposite I was. I mean,
it's so funny, like this was such a cool moment
for me, but I we we're practicing in Shishewskyville at
Nike headquarters and in in Walks my college teammate Leslie Johnson,
and I haven't seen her in probably twenty years, Like,

(33:37):
had no idea she was coming, you know, And it
was just, you know, there are there are moments in
sports where you're just like, like my heart was so full,
and like she talked into the huddle after the game
or after our practice, and I introduced her to my
team and they could tell like I was just like

(33:57):
I was beaming, you know, and my dimples get huge when.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
You know I'm I'm I'm happy. But you know she was.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
She was talking to them about the impact that I
had on her, you know that no matter how she
showed up, like I was always going to push her.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
I was never.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
You know, I just I was the energizer bunny and
I lived for I think that's why I am who
I am. You know, I think it's it's kind of
you know, the uh you know as well as anyone.
It's the the Rick and Linda Taggert. Like the expectations
were high, you know, I was. I was raised with
you know, you're you're going to show up the right
way and every walk of life whenever you do something,

(34:37):
you know, And so that's why it was engineering for me.
That's why it was you know, like there were no shortcuts.
And so I always felt like if I didn't prepare
the right way, I wouldn't play the right way. If
I didn't take the most shots, then I wasn't going
to see the ball go through the basket, you know.
And so but it was interesting to hear her talk
to the team about, you know, kind of because she was.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
A lazy, lazy player. She was uber.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
Talented National Freshman of the Year our freshman year when
we went to the final four, she was unbelievable. But
you know, she wanted to show up and hoop in
the games, you know, and so I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
It wasn't that I didn't I didn't want to show
up like I I brought to all the all the
energy and leadership. I just couldn't. I don't know, I
just wasn't very good. I just never I always And
maybe it's like a like, you know, my my issues
in my game. Obviously hear my confidence in my shooting,
but maybe it was like just an overall lack of confience.
But I just always felt like I'm not very good

(35:36):
in practice. You know, there's nothing I can do. I
would have you know what, No.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
No, a long time, I've never I've never heard you
say that, you know, like I think that I know
and I were similar though in a lot of ways,
because you know, like I would, I would talk about
like even even my college coach was like, I don't
know why you spend so much time in the gym
shooting when you're going to get an open shot in
the game and you're going to attack, can try to
just shoot off anyway?

Speaker 2 (36:01):
You know, like no one takes more shots and shoots
fewer shots.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh totally No. That no, that I would That's it
wasn't a question. So it wasn't a question of like
work at, working at like none of that stuff asked
the question. I just couldn't. I just I don't know
if you want to call, like I couldn't get the
magic to work when it just didn't work, maybe because
all the guys knew everything I was going to do
or whatever, and you know, it's it was such a small.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
On those passing lanes when they know you're not going to.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Shoot already totally. But but yeah, I don't know what
it was. I just was I never felt like I
was a good practice player, and I mean, you have
good practice when you play well, you dominate part of it.
It was also like he was a big especially at
Oaklhoma State, like well actually both McCloud's problem was everything

(36:51):
was like half court had hand combat. So I never
forget like we just do twenty six seconds in the
shot clock half court possessions, like it's so realistic, but
it's so also takes away like half of my game,
like everything I like to do everything in the open
court and no space for anything. And then for coach Sutton,

(37:12):
he just stopped practice all the time to talk, you know,
and like when he just let it go with scrimmaged
like it was like that I can get some flow gone.
But you know, like it just practice is dragged on
and it's it's so interesting. It's so different now as
I go around the country and you go watch people
practice and how some guys just do a great job

(37:34):
of getting guys to bring the energy every day and
making it at least somewhat fun. Like you know, you
get to February, it's not you're tired of being around
each other, your your body doesn't feel great. The coaches,
it's like you said, you got all this other crap
you're working on. But I do think that generally most
do a better job of making it enjoyable than maybe

(37:56):
they used to.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
But I just wasn't we have to have to, you know,
I mean, the reality is you have to today, Like
it's I even had to make changes when we were struggling, okay,
And I've always believed that we are going to watch
a film every day, not thirty minutes of film, but
we're gonna watch ten minutes of film every day in
the preseason. It's the practice before or it's hey, we're

(38:19):
putting in these actions today, like I want you to
see the rockets run them, like I want you to
see the raptors run these actions, like I want them
to see them, like look perfect, you know and see
the flow and the energy of them, you know, But
we hit the mid midway point of our season when
we were kind of we ended up, you know, starting

(38:41):
fourteen and oh, then going through to a ten and
seven stretch and then finishing with another like nine to
one stretch type of thing, and so you know, I'm like, okay,
how do I you know, We're going into the film room,
We're watching twenty minutes of film.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
They're sitting in the dark. Then they're going to wait
and weather.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
It's it's it's a heavy lift, or it's just a recovery,
or it's whatever. It's thirty minutes. And now by the
time we get them to the court, they've they've shown
up at the you know, at the practice facility, They've
done their their rehab, prehab whatever to get ready, they've
watched film, they've they've gone to ways and now I'm
getting them and they're already like I'm tired of being here,

(39:21):
you know, like it's I'm I'm literally you know, I'm like, Okay,
we gotta we got to flip this somehow. You know, Okay,
we're gonna watch film, but we're gonna watch We're gonna
watch five minutes of film before we start, and it's
gonna be on the court, you know, and we've we've
got a TV on the court, you know, and and
our new practice fuility it'll be built in. It'll be great.
But you know, we're we're just gonna change the energy.
We're gonna hit the court right after that. If we're

(39:42):
going over an opponent's plays, I'm not showing them before practice.
It's like, right before we do that segment. Hey, come
on over here, here are the three plays we're gonna
go over. Here's what the looks are like.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
We we created a better tempo. And that's year three
for me. You know.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
You like you have to figure out every team, like
how you're gonna get the most out of them, you know,
because their attention span is not going to be as long.
And we did way way, way less. You know, I've
always incorporated. I've had assistant coaches come to work for
me and say, like, I've never worked with someone who
did more shooting in practice, you know, and like like

(40:18):
just mixed it in and you know, and all of
a sudden, it was like, all right, we're not doing
that anymore. We're going to get to the nuts and
bolts of what we need to get done, and then
we're going to make sure that we're doing player development
outside of that, you know, and then we'll get more
period of time.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
And so wait, help help me out with this. Wait,
so you you you scrap that, or you dial that
back as the season goes on, or you continued that,
because I actually I love that, Like I think, you know,
coaches get so caught up in you know, fixing, you know,
tinkering with and finxturing, whereas like you're still got to
used to get shots up. You do skill development at

(40:56):
all times because end of the day, ball has to
go in the basket right of the Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
We've always done it. I think we're going to change
even how we kind of install instill it next year too.
We're already talking about it because I've always believed in
in season player development, you know, every year, like practice time.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Our first year was super short.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
We had seven players, We got people in and out
of reps really really quickly. Then all of a sudden,
you have a thirteen player roster and you don't have
that much separation between your top five and your next
four or five, and so now you're like trying to
get everybody reps, and you're in the gym longer, and
I'm measuring, you know, all the measurables, like how many
miles are they getting in practice?

Speaker 1 (41:38):
Will?

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Why does it feel like we're here so long? You know,
and you recognize, hey, like we're we're putting the same
amount of stress on their bodies or just here longer
because we have more players and so they're getting fewer reps,
they're standing more, and so like, how do we how
do we continue? So we've always done it. I think
we got down the stretch this year and I'm like,

(41:59):
I'm going to be in and out of the gym
in an hour and twenty. But everyone's going to get
three thirty minute individual workouts a week figured out, you know,
figured out in your schedule, and we're going to do
a better job of even scheduling class around between nil
and the way these kids are getting paid, you know,
like it's they can have that, you know. Yes, we're
still under the twenty hour rule, which I'd like to

(42:21):
say should disappear as they continue to get paid and
paid more. But I'll always prioritize them being good students
and getting a degree because at the end of the day, Like,
I'm old school enough to know how important a degree
is for all of our players, and we don't have
one and done's and they're they're not going to make
a million dollars in their first year, even if they

(42:43):
are an amazing pro.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
So, you know, I think it's important.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
But we've switched it up in terms of this is
a generation that has been individually.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Coached their whole lives in this game. Like they don't
feel like a guard workout with four guards is.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
The is being trained. They don't feel like that's being developed.
And to some degree it is, and some degrees it isn't.
You know, when you get to in season, what shots
are you getting? What shots are you consistently getting within
the offense? I think your player development changes from off
season to end season, you know, And okay, are we
trying to improve, Like you don't go left very well.

(43:21):
We're spending the whole off season working on you know,
you going left well?

Speaker 2 (43:25):
In season?

Speaker 3 (43:25):
If you can't go left, we're working on, Okay, how
can we get you to your spots right? Because you know,
like we aren't gonna we aren't gonna fix something now,
but let's enhance, let's enhance something. So I think that's
that's a big, big belief for us. Really good for
us down the stretch was getting them all back in
the gym, getting a volume of shots up, you know,

(43:49):
but but shortening practices.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
You know. It's what's interesting is the coach individually aspect
of it. What the coaches and I'm wondering if it's
the same in the women's game. They all say is like, look,
they've worked on their game probably more more than we did.
Whereas we just went out, My guys, you just go play.

(44:14):
And that was my dad would just drop me off
at the park and just like just go play. And
so they but they've worked on their game more, but
they watched less in terms of full games, right, they don't.
They don't like the men's game. They don't watch basketball
that much. They watch NBA or but it's more in
clips like were we started by talking about all the

(44:36):
court side films and whatnot with the films, so they
they know who a lot of the other players are
just as much or more than we did. Right, And
they've obviously with the with AAU and travel like you
play against everybody, But they don't have the basketball i
Q is lower in terms of in game understanding. You know.

(45:00):
It's like I mean, I like, I compare it with
the death of the motion offense, right, Like, you can't
run motion because you get a kid in college and
he doesn't know how to run motion offense. He has
no clue and none of us had any real clue
coming out of high school of the level of intensity
and level detail in college. But even more so now

(45:22):
that they just don't know stuff.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
And uh yeah, they're running dribble drive in summer basketball
like they they and not that you can't be successful
collegiately with the dribble drive. VIC and Texas have proven
you can maybe not as much this year without Rory,
so it can be successful. But that's what all the
club teams are running. So they're not learning to read flairs.

(45:47):
They're not learning the reads on pinned downs. They're they're
not you know, you can say flex like and that
they don't. Hey we're going to run horns flex. That
doesn't that there is no trigger there, you know, like
every one of our generation, like I knew, I didn't
want to go play for Northwestern because they were a

(46:07):
flex team.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
You know, like that's not going to suit me. I
don't want to. But I think at that time.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Everybody was so funny like that was that was That's
why I didn't go play for my brother's high school. Yeah,
because they were like, everyone's.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
In the lane, get them out of the lane. I
need space. I'm not very big, like you know.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Well, it's also like not for a true point guard,
right right, like try and go same, same kind of things.
So it's so funny, but again, like the action within it,
they don't or they or they know the basics of
some of the stuff, but they don't understand. They don't
understand the why. You know, they don't understand why you know,
why the not just the lift, but why you need

(46:49):
to stand before the lift, why it all kind of
matters together. And here's the here's the bigger one that
they that I kind of discovered this year and I
didn't realize it is they don't they don't actually understand
sometimes what the coach is trying to do. And I'll

(47:10):
give you the the the the easy ex example is
you know, you move a kid to the four or
the five who's like a three, and like you were
trying to create an advantage against the player that's not
as quick or as athletic as you are. Okay, so
you have to what as you're catching the ball, you
need to process you know, where I where am I? Am?

(47:31):
I opened? And then who's guarding me? And those things
because they're so used to one on cone and going
into their bag that they catch the ball and they
they don't they're not reading. They already kind of go
into like they just go into they even name moves,
names the move, but they name moves in what they're doing,
and it's more about planning what they're going to do

(47:53):
for a move instead of just playing and reacting. I
think that's the part that I noticed, And.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
I'll tell you that's why I like a Juju Watkins
is so ahead of so many people because I'm sure
she's been trained by elite trainers in the LA area,
but she does read. You know, they run so much
isolation to her, which is so unusual in the women's game,
Like we just don't see. Like when I was looking
at their their numbers, their analytics, it's like wow, Like

(48:22):
her volume of isolations you just don't see in the
women's game. And you know, but she she has the
ability to read space, and the more space she has,
the more she can get into her bag of tricks.
You know, even though she wants to over the top,
left right crossover as much as possible, you know, like
it's still she still has tendencies like all players do.

(48:46):
But yeah, I think it's it's we get too wrapped
up in we talk about positionless basketball, and yet people
get so wrapped.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Up into are you a three or are you a four?

Speaker 3 (48:57):
You know, it's like if I were if I were
a kid and I was going to choose to play
any possession position right now, I would want to be
a one or a four if you're if you're just
talking the numbers game, you know, because you just like,
but no one wants to be a four, like everyone
wants to be a big guard, you know. And it's

(49:18):
like it's the same You're just going to get a
weaker defender, you know, to get you in between the
lane lines. And you know, like, yes, do you want
to come off the ball screen or do you want
to set it?

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Okay, you don't want to set it.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
But the real what you're going to understand is like
you are going to have so much freedom in slipping, ghosting, rolling,
like you know, if if you learn to read action
and not predetermined Like I even had a kid in
the Pros that I traded for that played for an
elite collegiate program with great success. But they were very

(49:53):
much A A to B, B two C. You're gonna
I mean, it was it's old school, like it's old school.
It's it's maybe new school actions, but it's still old
school in terms of, hey, we're gonna start in a
box and then this is what we're looking for. And
you know, she said to me, do you want me
to pop a role? And I'm looking at it and
I'm like, I, my goodness, you're twenty four years old.
I want you to read the dyea the best. You know, Yes,

(50:16):
But it was amazing how how we program how how
players can be programmed to.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Do what somebody wants them to do.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
And so whether that's with a cone in front of
them or whether that's in a system, you know, you
have to very quickly. You know, you're you're teaching people.
It's what made the lista Smiths special in such a
short period of time. Like at the beginning she was
a little lost and by the end.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Of the year, Like it didn't matter what you.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
Did to us, like if you were going to Hardhead,
just whether you're gonna drop coverage, whatever you're gonna do.
Like we had two really good people in the ball screen,
and like it was a wrap, you know, because the
Lista was gonna slip it. She was gonna pop it,
she was gonna pop rip drive like she was, you know.
And when you have players with talent and you put

(51:03):
them into man action, like it's really hard to stop,
you know, and the games that's not that.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Complicated at that point.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
And so for me, I love to uncomplicate the game,
even though I know I have a complex brain and
I think the game at a really really high level.
But like at the end of the day, I want
to make the game simple because I don't think you
have to do eight hundred things to be successful.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Well, what's it like to go against Bill, A guy
you lost them in the tournament? I know you have
so much respect for him, and I mean literally he's
been there since we played. Yeah, and I would I
would again, I don't you and I for people know,
we haven't talked about this. I kind of feel like
he's one of those essentially, I was watching Iowa last night,

(51:54):
and you know, throughout this year, I didn't realize how
successful they had been previous to Calin Like I honestly
no idea because again, like we I my knowledge of
the women's game was just at the very top level,
you know, no just really surface level, nothing, no real depths.
But I think Bill's that kind of same way, whereas

(52:14):
he's really good, been really good for a long time,
and I don't know if maybe this year is one
of the first years which he's kind of gotten his
due sort of speak. Is that fair?

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Yeah, I mean I think he's had really good teams.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
I think he, you know, had to deal with the
stretch that that Kim Walki dominated at Baylor.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
So everyone was an afterthought in the Big twelve.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
You know that that wasn't I mean, Texas was signing
top five classes year in and year out and couldn't be Baylor,
you know, so that was you know, I mean, they
weren't going to keep a coach at the end of
the day who just absolutely could not be Baylor, and
so so they hired Vic, you know, and he he's
you know, we we've still been you know, we've beaten

(53:02):
them more than he's beaten us since I've been here,
but certainly they've they've beaten us. So Bill, you know,
I beat him the first three times we played, and
I don't think anyone, you know, kind of outside a
small circle understood like how big that was to me personally.
You know that I've just had such respect for him.

(53:24):
I mean, he he was one of the first people.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
That recruited me. He was at Toledo at the.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
Time, and you know, I always I always loved him,
and then he then he took the Iowa State job
the same year that I transferred to Marquette, and I
considered playing for him again.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
You know.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
So Bill Finley was at my wedding like their their
their friends like they're but I also have had He's
just always kind of known who to recruit and how
to how to mold them and how to be successful.
And you know, isn't doing it with with always you know,
top fifty recruit It's that they tend to be fifty

(54:01):
to two hundred, and that that doesn't Sometimes they maybe
are fringe and could be that good. I mean, Audi
Crooks was, but I think you know, he just clips
along and wins twenty to twenty five games a year,
and so I just I think he's.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Always been a good play caller.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
He's going to manipulate the defense to get what he wants,
you know, so you have to you have to.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
He's a good in game adjustment person.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
Like he's never been able to just out talent you,
And I think that's what you get sometimes in college,
you have coaches that are really really good at recruiting
and getting great talent, and then they're just gonna out
talent you, like if it comes down to a one
possession game. You know, there are coaches that you feel
better about going up against than others, you know, and

(54:50):
then there are there are coaches like Bill that you
know aren't going to out talent you a lot of
the time, but like are gonna out execute, out work out.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
You know.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
And he's he just he does a good job of
manipulating d and he he does a good.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
Job of.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
Figuring out how to be competitive, Like, okay, we we
we can't keep these guys in front.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
We're going to play a triangle in two. Like he's
just kind of he'll throw the kitchen sink.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
At you when the brackets came out. What'd you think?

Speaker 2 (55:22):
I felt really good. I I probably like jumped.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
I didn't even see that we were playing the winner
of the playing game because I really felt like.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
We had a chance.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
You know, I felt like we should have been a host,
and we played our way out of that. So I
wasn't like I was sitting there thinking we would and
so then it becomes like what are the matchups?

Speaker 2 (55:42):
What do the matchups look like? You know, And I
felt I felt.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
Really really good about the pathway we had to the
final four, you know, like I even watching the USC
game last night, I'm like, we could have given Connecticut
a great game. I felt like as good as Virginia
Tech had been at home, losing Kitley made them vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
I thought that as good as USC was, you.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
Know, that we we could we they had They weren't
beating people by twenty you know, they they were finding
ways to win low scoring games.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
You know.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Sometimes it just I felt like we had a chance.
And then we played Yukon last year, and I felt
like that would have given us some confidence to like, Okay,
like this isn't a the same Yukon team, but you know,
b we're playing them on a neutral court.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
So I felt really really good about the bracket.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Again, like we all make maybe we will fans like
to make the like accusations of oh well they staff
they wanted these matchups, but it was really interesting on
the spacing of who and and and what, like it's
it's I don't know, it just it's got to be
hard because the sport has four or five like stars

(57:06):
star like Kaitlyn is a star, you know, and obviously
Lsu everyone knows who those those girls are, and their
coach is a gigantic name is as you know as well,
and then you know Page is a star, and and
you're talking about Juju Juju is a star. So what

(57:27):
is it in terms of understanding and prepping like milling
in the back of your mind for the sport, it's
great the more those stars play, and then yet, hey,
for the sport, it's also like it's got to be
I don't know fair. So when you're yeah, you're looking
at the back and you're like, huh, where's are where

(57:49):
are we supposed to enter? Like do you I don't
know how to ask this question.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
Yeah, let's be honest, we were the afterthought, you know,
like they came out with a top twenty five of.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
List.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
ESPN did of top twenty five players in the Sweet sixteen.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Baylor didn't have anyone listed.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
You know, why is that? I mean, is it because
you built?

Speaker 2 (58:16):
I think it's I mean full transparency.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
I think that you know, we were uber talented, but
we don't. I don't think we have anyone that can
get twenty five every game.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
We don't.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
I mean we have ensemble cast.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
Yeah, Like we're a team where the sum is bigger
than the parts.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Now do I think we have really good parts?

Speaker 3 (58:39):
We have players that can get twenty in any given game,
depending on how the defense plays us, depending on whether
they play as man or zone, depending on how they
cover our ball screens, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Like we have players. We had eight different players that
led us in scoring. We had.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Seven different players that scored over eighteen points and in
any one game.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
You know, so we had players that could go score.
But we did not have players.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
We didn't have someone that like, all right, we're gonna
bring the ball down the court and we're gonna hammer
it into the post to Dre Edwards. No, we were
gonna we were gonna pick and slip and trail in
and make threes from her and get a rim run.
And and you know, if if teams were playing US
man and they played drop coverage like Jada, Walker was.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Going to eat them up, like she was going to
eat the space up and could make.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
The jumper, and you know, but if you played a
zone like Jada, probably wasn't going to get double figures.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
You know.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
So it just like for US, I think we had
really good players, but the sun was bigger than the parts.
I think part of that was Sarah Andrews had the
most star power on our team, but missed the entire
offseason and I'm talking the entire offseason, you know, March
to We started bringing her back in October with some
foot issues and so like, I don't think she ever

(01:00:02):
regained kind of the bounce and the the swag that
she had the year before. And so you know, she
she made threes and she could get her step back,
but her middle game really suffered early in the season.
Her her game all the way to the rim was
non existent. Like it got better as the season went along,

(01:00:24):
but she kind of lost her middle game, which wasn't
a high volume part, but certainly was a part of
her skill set then and was until we had Jada,
she was our best mid range score. So so yeah,
I mean I think that was a that was a
unique challenge for us as knowing that ESPN did not

(01:00:45):
want us, you know, at the end of the day,
I can say it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Not that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Not that they have the ability to rig the games
or anything like that. I just think, you know, how
many people, how many people said when we're playing, like
the name Juju, how many times was it said relative
to how many times someone on our team's you know
name was brought up, you know, And and she had
her third most inefficient game of the year against this

(01:01:12):
she was eight for twenty eight, you know, so we
did something well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Okay, So but so that brings like bears the question
and maybe maybe this changes obviously when when when Caitlin
goes to the w NBA. But is it like in
the construct of the team, is there any thought like
and it's smarter to just build around once you like
get a star built around the star because you almost
protect yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Great.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
I mean, I think we all want to start like
we're all going to recruit stars, you know, but I
think it's where are they from? You know, what does
Nil look like? You know, what are they looking for?
I mean, I think we we have the resources and
the bells and whistles and and certainly we want to
recruit the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Best players, but you know you still got to get them.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
I mean, usc As has been down, Lindsay's a great coach,
and Juju's an l a a kid you know that
played at the same school as Brownie and you know
at the and can make true Nil.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
I mean, how cool to me when you talk about
progress in the women's game.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
And I know it is obviously very purposeful, but but
you're watching the games last night and you're seeing the
commercials with Angel, You're seeing the commercial with Juju and MBI,
You're seeing you know, you're seeing these commercials with these
like collegiate women's basketball players.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Like wow, Like who Like that's that's when you know,
like we have created stars. When when you do have
people that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Silly as it sounds, Juju and Paige and Caitlin and Angel,
like we we have we have stars that have first
names that you don't need to know. If you're talking
about women's basketball and you say Paige, people.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Know it's Page Beckers.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
You know, like so you know, I think that's that's
a really cool thing, and that has something to do
with social media and people talking, and but it's still like, wow,
look where the sport has come. And you know, these
were Caitlyn and Paige and Juju and Angel were all
stars coming out of high school. Like they didn't just
become stars. Like everyone knew who Paige was, everyone knew

(01:03:23):
who Caitlyn was.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
I mean, Juju was number one in her class, Angel
was number two in her class.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Page was number one. I mean, these are kids that
were number one in their high school classes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
They didn't sneak up on anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Okay, first time you you heard of Kitlen Clark.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
I saw Caitlyn.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Probably just highlights, you know, when I was a pro coach.
I mean, you're you're for the same reason everybody else does.
You know, it pops up on your reel you look
at women's basketball stuff, you know, and and you start
to see her stuff. So that would be the first time,
like I knew who she was at eighteen, and then
you start watching the minute. The minute you're a pro coach,

(01:04:10):
you're watching closely, who's next. You know, you're watching the
collegiate game so you know, certainly had seen her play
even her freshman year when I was was still in
the pros. In fact, that year I went and scouted
the Iowa City and Ames first and second rounds. We

(01:04:34):
were looking at Megan Gustafson, who was an Iowa player,
was a fringe. I think she went thirteenth, so she
didn't go in the first round. But you know, like
you're you're you're paying attention to those things.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
You're playing Iowa. How do you guard Caylen?

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
I think you gotta change looks on her.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
I think our philosophy was someone like her and there is.
We don't play anyone that's as good as her, But
relatively speaking, it's make.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Her go two by two by two by two.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
I think in Iowa and General's team, you make them
go two by two by two by two. So philosophically
we would have tried to take away the three. The
challenge with her is like if you she's not as
good playing downhill to or left, but she owns the
step back left. She's really good going downhill to her

(01:05:28):
right hand, you know, So that's the that's the dilemma
like I typically with with with their five I would
iced the heck out of her in ball screens, you know,
with their fours, we would have switched because that's kind
of who we are. So if they were setting a
ball screen with with whoever they call there for Kat,

(01:05:49):
you know, Martin, whatever, then we would have switched with
with their five stulky o Grady. We would have been
hardcore icing, you know, and tried to almost have it
looked like a trap because if you sit back and
she can snake, she can get whatever she wants if
you're just sitting on her side, you know, because she
can go to step back if you're just sitting. So

(01:06:11):
we would have played her similar in some ways to
what we did with Juju, Like we would either have
a high high cup or you know, ben in ane.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Why not just again like kind of old school, not
even old school, but like just put two in the ball,
you know, not necessarily every time.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
You know, And that's what you like. That was our Like,
that's what we did with Juju.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
I think you can do it some I will say,
she's a magician with the ball and can force you
into rotations really quickly, So I think if you stick
with that, she'll slice and dice you, But I think
you can bring it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
We our goal with Georgia Amore at Virginia Tech.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
Our goal with Juju was anytime they're on a ball screen,
we were willing to take two to the ball.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
We were.

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
And I think think neither one of those two are
as good as passers as Caitlin. So I think you
can't stay with that over forty minutes, but I don't.
It doesn't matter if if you're icing, you're doing that anyway.
If you're in a high cup.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
You're doing that anyway. Sure I think you can.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
I think you can trap her occasionally, you know, like
if she's coming, they'll they'll slip out of it quickly,
you know. But but yeah, I would that that would
be my philosophy.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
I played for a guy in my freshman year in
high school and in the named Tom McCluskey. He played
it at Penn State for Dick Harder And yes that's
actually his name, but h R d E R just what.
I can't imagine Dick Harter being a coach today.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
You are going by Richard or Rick. I don't care,
but no way.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Yes, anyway. So but he we played jacqu Vaughn in
high school. Yep, my freshman year in the playoffs. He
was a junior, and Jock was like the dude, like
in terms of how you and I played like true
point guard. He was unbelievable. And so we ran in
the second half. We were in a one three one,
and it was just like a soft trap every time

(01:08:12):
he got the ball, just like, hey, we're putting two
on you every time you get it, and we're just
going to corral you and make it make you get
rid of the basketball. And it worked. And again I'm
not saying like that's the way, but I just I
do think end of the day, you got it. I mean, look,
we saw it in the with John shire in in
the Elite eight. Like I don't understand DJ Burns gets

(01:08:35):
the ball in the post like he has twenty nine points,
He's dominating, get the ball out of his hands. Yeah,
like like old school basketball. Would I one take away
what the other team does best? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
I think there's two schools of thought, you know, because
I know people talk.

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
A lot about what LSU did last night, and you
know I'm not in their huddle.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
I'm not.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
I mean, philosophically, I can understand what they were trying
to do I can. I think you you also have
the school of thought, like we can score on this team,
like LSU put one hundred on them last year.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Different team, but arguably.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
For I was potentially even a more talented team a
year ago, which is what's amazing about what they're doing
this year, you know, because they don't have the same
post presence and a and a WNBA player in Monica Szano,
and so you know, like I think the goal was like, hey,
she's gonna get hers if no matter who we put
on her, she's gonna get hers, right, So like we're

(01:09:32):
gonna we're gonna guard everybody else and make her make
tough shots. And you know, the the toughest part was,
you know, if you if if you took away the
transition baskets, that would have might have worked. You know,
like at the end of the day, like not sitting
back and I mean, I'm it's it's not because it's

(01:09:54):
it's it's Kim Molkie or it's we could be talking
about the USC yukon game. I would speak the same
way every game I watch I'm coaching. You know, like
once you're in these shoes, you're always you're always.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Thinking what would I do?

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
What would have and even looking back, like as everyone's
questioning like game planning, it's like, you know what, I
get the game plan, you know, if but if you
take the transition the rim runs that they got, that game.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
Would have been a really really good game at the end.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
If it was just Caitlin making crazy tough step back
twenty four foot threes, you know what I mean, Like
if it had been if that was all they were
giving up and they were giving them one shot, you know,
I think it was it was the transition baskets that
at the end of.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
The day were probably what they were.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
Not not that you don't know that that I was
gonna run hard on every possession, so they knew it.
But it's like it's something that you feel like you
can't control when you're talking about x's and o's and
like that's like it's an effort thing. It's a heart thing,
get your butt back on d thing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
You know. Well, it's also it's all so yeah, but
some of that also is like hey, day one of practice,
you know, I mean, I I you know, at what
you do every day of practice transition defense, but it's
it's interesting you point that out, because I would say,
and I know you were you were coaching at the time,

(01:11:18):
So ill Illinois lost to Yukon. Like the backbreaker wasn't
wasn't their defense, you know, it was that they couldn't score.
And then they stopped getting back on defense, and they
gave up like three or four layups in transition, and
they gave up three or four buckets on on kickouts
off of offense rebounds. And that was all because they

(01:11:38):
couldn't score. And so you know how kids are, like emotionally,
you can't score, there's a letdown defensively, and the second
right and and I mean that that that to me
is you know, the ultimate of like a mature team.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
And it goes back to shot selection.

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):
You know, we we you know you you want like
LSU plays with ultimate freedom like offensively in terms of
shot selection, and at times, you know, you can look
at it and say, okay, like I will, I will
show our players this shot was the same as a
turnover because LSU's advantage was clearly when they got when

(01:12:17):
they got Moro and Reese at the rim, like they're
impossible to block out, impossible, like impossible, like they are
so good on the glass, but you got to let
them get there, you know, and if if you're taking
early shots before they're there, like so often, and you
could say this about South Carolina a year ago. South

(01:12:38):
Carolina was not an offensive juggernaut, but like get one
shot up on the rim.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Aliah Boston and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Victoria Saxton and the players that they had, they their
first shot wasn't their best shot.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
Just get it up on the rim.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
They're going to get an easier second shot. And so
I feel like in particular, I know they started that way,
but at times it comes down to are you getting
the sho shots that you want, because if you're not,
if you're taking quick shots and they're getting long rebounds.
The one thing I would does an amazing job is
is there you know they're they're they're change like they

(01:13:13):
like their first three steps, like they are out of there.
If they can get an out a deep outlet, like
it's one dribble and she like puts the ball, you know,
wherever she wants to, you know, in the open court.
So you know, I think that a lot of times
that's as big as okay, you know, like we can

(01:13:34):
set our d on a travel you know, it's it's
like points off turnovers is a deceptive stat at time?
How many of those were live ball turnovers? Because to me,
a live ball turnover and a bad a really bad shot,
they're the same thing, even though they're not going to
be that way in the stats, you know, versus they're
gonna call a basket. Even if you throw the ball

(01:13:54):
out of bounds, if the team scores on the next possession,
it's a points off turnovers. And that's not that's not
to me, you know, not as a coach, not you know,
like I mean, we teach really hardcore, do not save
the ball unless you have a teammate to save it too.
Because if we can set our d we can get
a stop, you know. But if you like, are making
a hustle play and throw it to the other team

(01:14:16):
and we're five on four, that that's a bigger challenge.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Now, our scram defense has to be great.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
Article comes out about Kim and you were, you know,
rightfully offended by it. You're not somebody who goes to
the racism sexism card almost ever, right, So, how do you, like,
how do you process criticism in regards to real criticism

(01:14:42):
or criticism coming from people who you know, still don't
want to buy into the idea of women's basketball being
you know, obviously not the level of men's but but
on the right, Like, how do you balance between real
criticism and the sexism racism element of it?

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Yeah, I think, you know, when we're talking about that article,
it's so crazy because I think one of my strengths
is I think I articulate pretty well. You know, I
I don't put my foot in my mouth a lot.
I'm a I'm a decent interview e because I'm not
afraid to talk about tough subjects. I'm I'm not going

(01:15:21):
to just say what could we have done better? We
should have boxed out and run harder or played harder.
I'm going to tell you, like our ball screen coverage
wasn't good enough, our X, Y and Z right, I'm
gonna I'm gonna talk about the game.

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
I've always believed part of my job.

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
In in coaching and coaching in women's sports and being
in the W even is like I'm going to help
our media understand the game the way we see it.
You know, Like I'm not gonna I'm not dumbin it down,
you know, like it's just not it's not who I am.
I feel like I have like the ability from a
grassroots perspective to.

Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
To grow our game.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
And so, you know, it was like a lot of
flak for saying I didn't read the article but was
offended by it, and obviously people chose to not understand.

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
The totality of what I was saying.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
I don't know what that I still haven't read the
whole Washington Post article. You know, that came out on
a day that we were playing in the Sweet sixteen.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
But the whole point was that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:23):
If you're going to say our program is withering, you
know that we're not a top tier program. I'm going
to take offense to that because I think there are
a lot of people that would say we are, you know,
and especially on a day that we're playing in the
Sweet sixteen, And so I think I felt the need
to in some ways fight for myself, fight for our program,

(01:16:44):
fight for our players in that moment and say, like
what are you talking about? Like if you're going to
write about this, like, please do your research, you know,
I mean, if you want to talk about Louisiana Tech,
like talk about why Louisiana Tech has struggled talk about
the fact that at one point in women's college basketball,
Western Kentucky and Missouri State, back when it was Southwest

(01:17:06):
Missouri State and LA Tech where the cream of the crop.
That's where top kids wanted to go because those were
places that supported women's basketball before it became.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
The norm, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
And and now like how those teams like if you're
not in a Power five, if you don't have football money,
if you don't have like that's why LA Tech has
has has dropped off, not because they haven't had good coaching,
not because it's changed so much. It's that the state
of the college athletics has changed, you know. And so

(01:17:38):
to me, I was frustrated because there was no reason
to toss us in there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
I mean, it just it was.

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
It wasn't even part of the story as as I'm
told the story was about.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
And so I think, I think again, and I did
read the story. I think what what she thought was
a piece to crush her end up being just a
profile piece and kind of a fluff piece to make
it look like like here she is this you know,
force of nature that crushes everything in her in her path,

(01:18:10):
and what's left behind is you know, like withering Baylor,
which I felt like was it was it was in
an effort to make her and her presence look great.
And I also think it's like one of those things
in broadcasting you get caught of, like the ad sentence
and you've just not done that. Be fine, you know, but.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
Right yeah, I just I didn't feel like we needed
to be taking a shot at, you know, from the timing.
So my whole point was like, hey, like you're welcome, come,
come visit, and you can tell me if you still
feel like we're withering here, like come.

Speaker 5 (01:18:46):
The big question is like you you have the ability
to say whatever you want and and handle yourself in
the media, but it's like do I make a show
of myself or do I just keep doing my job?

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
Right? It's kind of because and this is where I
think the women's game is as well, where we're rewarding
people and most of these women are really really talented,
but we are rewarding the people who make the bigger
show of it, not necessarily the ones who just kind
of do their deal, you know what I mean. Like
that's kind of where the sport feels like it's going.
And I just wonder if you're every thinking of stepping

(01:19:21):
outside yourself and like, hey, why can't I be show
my bigger personality? Why can't I take over a room?
I'm capable of that. But I know that you don't
think that's the way in when you lead the program.
How much of that? How hard does that balance?

Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
I think there's there's a unique balance in that. I
think when I spent enough time, I will tell you
the one thing you learned coaching in the pros is
it's not about you.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
I mean, it is about the superstars.

Speaker 3 (01:19:47):
It's about I mean, if you took a pull of
outside of like people know who Becky Hammond is, you know,
with the Aces, because she was a great player, because
she worked for Pop, because of all these reasons. But
you know, I think it's it's you know, you talk
a lot about the superstars in the game.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
So coming back, I.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
Know that as a college head coach, you know, you
become the face of the program because you're the You're
the staple. Like players come and go, they're here from
eighteen to twenty two years. You may be, you know,
and so you kind of have to you have to
be able to sell yourself. You have to and recruiting,
be able to sell yourself and who you are. And

(01:20:30):
I'm certainly not afraid to be the face of Baylor
women's basketball, but I still want it to be about
our team. I want people to come to our games
because of how we play, not because of what I do,
you know, on the sidelines or what I'm going to say,
Like I want them to love watching.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
How our team competes, you know, and so but you know,
like it's and it's it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
How but that's but that's not the way it's done
most like and not just.

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):
You know, but when you step outside yourself and think
of it, Like the first time I really stepped out
here was about BG and it was like unbelievable that
like ninety percent ninety probably eight percent was positive, but boy,
the two percent is loud. You know, when you speak
up for somebody that people like are judging, you know,

(01:21:22):
degrees of sin and whether she should be back or
have been traded or X, Y and z, like it's like, dang,
like I'm looking at this from a human element. I'm
looking at you know, like this could be your sister brother,
you know, mother, Like what would you still say those
things like and so I just think the social media

(01:21:45):
is me and you know that better than anyone, Like
you get somewhat paid to be controversial, and like have
to constantly choose to live in that space.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
I'm probably arguably a little too sensitive. I like to
be liked, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
I mean, it's it's by nature, that's kind of who
I am. And I have to had to develop thick
skin through this, Like I can tell you, like if
we lose, I don't go on on Twitter for three days.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
Three days because it'll have just run its course.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
Like I've had to learn that, you know, because I
don't want to read it. And it's not that I
like can that I'll like start buying into it, but
it just well.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
It doesn't feel good, you know, And I don't I
don't love to like I don't love to be in
that space.

Speaker 3 (01:22:38):
Like I genuinely like there are there's like there's a
quote that like I try to live by and it's
like your energy speaks before you do. Like I want
to walk into a room and have people feel good energy,
you know, And that means like everybody who knows me
knows that after a loss, like I am, I'm emotional,

(01:23:00):
I'm unhappy. I'm like I used to have literally media
people checking on me when I was with the Dream,
you know, because you built these relationships. It's like, go,
g you okay, I'm like no, But at ten am
tomorrow I will be, you know, because that was my process.
Like this is gonna hurt, and I'm gonna go back
and watch the film and I'm gonna critique everything I

(01:23:21):
could have done better. But then I'm gonna move on
and at ten o'clock tomorrow, I'm gonna be thinking about
how are we going to win the next game, you know,
and what do I have to do.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
But I'm not.

Speaker 3 (01:23:30):
Afraid to be like emotional about like who I am
and how I think and and you know, like at
the end of the day, like I want to be
elite at what I do, you know. And so I
don't like losing because I'm competitive and and I hate losing.
I just I believe in losing the right way. I
believe in being a good sport. I believe in You're

(01:23:51):
not gonna see me act crazy in a handshake line.
You just it's it's like, you know, I mean the
Virginia Tech fans would think otherwise, but allultimately, like I've
been in college for three years and I haven't gotten
a technical you know, like I got one in my
three years as a head coach in the pros, Like
I believe in killing them with kindness, you know, Like

(01:24:14):
it's at the end of the day, Like there's different
ways to skin a cat, and I learned like in
the pros, like you know, what Bill Lamber might be
able to intimidate an official, I can't, Like, no one's
going to be intimidated by me. So therefore, like how
do I create real relationships that you know, can maybe
have as much of an impact. And it doesn't mean

(01:24:35):
I'm like fake, but you know, at the end of
the day, like you know, do people respond to me
yelling and screaming at them, Like I'm going to battle
for my team and I'm gonna get frustrated, like I
thought the officials kind of stole the game from us,
Like you know, on an out of bounds play that
looked like it was clearly ours watching the replay, and
now we're down two instead of four, and we run

(01:24:56):
a play and hit a three and we go up one.
That game looks really different at the end, down to
rather than down four. So I wasn't happy, you know,
and I had said some things I probably am not
proud of to the official about that, you know, like,
but at the end of the day, I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
I didn't m f them you wanted to.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
But right like, there's some self control here, Doug, there's.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):
Some truly truly appreciate your time.

Speaker 2 (01:25:25):
Yeah, awesome, good to see you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
All right, that's it for this edition of All All
my thanks to Nick Collin and man, how crazy is this?
How much even us on the men's side are paying
attention to given respect to the women's side and what
we've seen. If you have any thoughts, any comments, any commentary,
remember subscribe, download rate review and put this out on
Twitter or ex whateveryone, call her Instagram and again, if

(01:25:53):
you liked it, you didn't like it, that's cool, give
us your thoughts. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is a ball app.

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All Ball - Baylor Women’s HC Nicki Collen on Kim Mulkey Critics, Defending Caitlin Clark, Women’s CBB Parity

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.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}All Ball - Baylor Women’s HC Nicki Collen on Kim Mulkey Critics, Defending Caitlin Clark, Women’s CBB Parity