Doug reacts to Draymond Green’s latest ejection for his cheap shot on Suns C Jusuf Nurkic, and the reason for his increasingly erratic cheap shots.
Then, Gottlieb is joined by former 9-time Final Four official John Higgins to discuss his first officiating gig in college, why he decided to pursue it as his career, climbing the officiating ladder to crack the DI ranks, the massive leap to the Big 8 at its peak, the legend of his trademark hair, earning respect as a young ref, and why it’s crucial for officials to have good game calling mechanics.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottliebs is all
ball man. Are you gonna love our guest? His name
is John Higgins? Your life?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Really you got John Higgins? Yep?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
John Higgins was up until this year, one of the
most known, most respected, and frankly most employed officials in
college basketball.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
You knew him because he had his golden sandy blonde
brown hair.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
He wore different pants than what seemed like the rest
of college basketball's officials. He had a flash and a flamboyance,
and he was completely unafraid to stare down a coach
or to make a hard call on the road.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
John Niggins is my guest. This is gonna be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
By the way, we do ask about the pants, we
do ask about the hair, and there's incredible stories in.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
This two part discussion.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
But I want to throw this out because we're coming
on the back of Draymond Green and turning around and
punching Nurkic in a game which he was ejected, and
now I'm likely to be suspended. Maybe by the time
this is this dropsy, he's been suspended. It's interesting, like
you do need a guy on your team that everybody
on the other team wants to fight. I always use
(01:20):
the Jorge Gutierrez argument, I or him him as the
as the example, Jorgey Gutier is my brother Greg, who's
an assistant with the women's at Santaye State. But he
was with the men for eight years. He left and
went to cal Berkeley. He went into Finley Prep. And
I could let my brother tell the story, but I'll
tell it instead. So Todd Simon, who's now the head
(01:41):
coach of Bowling Grave, was the head coach at Finley Prep,
and he rolls in freshly into the Pac ten at
Cow and back then it was hard to recruit at
a Pac ten level when you're in at Santae State.
Even though Santay State was growing in popularity, it won
the league and was starting to sell out the arena.
So he's watching all these that Friendly Prep had at
(02:01):
the time, and he turns to Todd says, who should
we go after? He said, the kid with the ponytail
and the kid with the ponytail's names who or you
get to hear? As he'd come from he'd come from Mexico
the year before, gone to a prep school in Denver,
lived with six other kids in a one bedroom apartment
and then transferred to Findley Prep. He shot with two hands.
(02:23):
His body wasn't sculpted. He wasn't an above the rim player.
But Todd Simon said, hey man, when we have a competition,
when we play, his team always wins.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
He's a tough, bad m effort.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And oh yeah, by the way, somebody the other team
wants to fight him every game. So my brother offered
him a scholarship. By his senior year, he was Pack
ten Player of the Year. And you know what, in
four years of cow there wasn't a game he played.
That's somebody the other team didn't want to fight him.
And he played in the NBA, and I believe he's
playing now in Mexico. You have to have those guys,
but Draymond takes it to another level. And that other
(02:54):
level is only the true Like this guy is a psycho.
I don't think the all psychos, you know, but Jason
Sutherland was a guy who was kind of a psycho.
Played for Missouri and you guys remember him. Sure, there's
lots of junk yard dogs out there and guys that
borderline on dirty. I remember Chris Kingsbury as son. Now
(03:15):
I think plays at IOWA, and I don't think he was.
He got caught punching a dude when he wasn't looking.
Coming off of the screen. Kingsbury's number was fourteen, he
told me, and I think everybody know it was because
he loves seven and seven. By the way, seven and
seven refreshing drink Kevin had in a while. Anyway, here's
what I like you to do. You want to participate
(03:35):
in all ball, why don't you tweet at me at
Gottlieb Show or hit me on Instagram. We post this
on your favorite college basketball or NBA Bad Guy and
my bad guy. He hasn't been able to play. Anybody
can have a guy that sits on the end of
the bench and does him play. But when you have
a guy that plays that strikes a little bit of
fear into the heart of your own team and a
(03:55):
lot of fear in the heart of the other team,
it ends up working for you. Draymond's probab is as
he starts to age. Now the theatrics become more grandiose
because he thinks it covers the fact ad I'm played
nearly as well anymore. One last fighting, One last fighting story,
My first year playing overseas, I played in Russia and
we had a couple of Russian guys at the end
(04:16):
of our bench that didn't play that much, and one
of them was about six ' five and pretty strong lifted.
We lifted every day, but he was always in the
height room. And we played against Sessca Moscow and our
best player was named Sergate Chikulkin, and Chica was He
looked like powder, he remember, powder, shaved head, pale skin,
(04:38):
kind of had a weird shot, but man could he
shoot score. He was the best Russian player that year
in the Russian legue. We won the Russian League and
we're playing Sasca in our home gym in perm, Russia,
and towards the end of the game, Chica came open
and a guy and shot faked Joven lane and it
wasn't Roy Rodgers on their team, Rushy Laruez on the
other team and Andre Kerlink was our team, but it
(05:01):
was another thing Russian named corner Koff who had played
in Portland that just leveled him. For the buzzer sounds
and we go to center court and do the you know,
clapping and put our hands up and thank the crowd
and our president of our team comes down from you've
seen Rocky was a Rocky or where they're in Russia,
(05:23):
And you know back then the Soviet Union guys just
sit up at the top of these big chairs. Well
those places still exist in the arenas, only instead of
leaders of Soviet Union and the party, it's your.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Owner of the team.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So he comes down from on high and says something
to one of the guys at been off our bench,
the six to five kind of a ripped up dude,
big muscular guy. Our team goes one way and our
locker of their team goes to another way, and he's
kind of mulling around the court, and eventually I see
him go into the other team's locker room. Well out
the rest of the room is a friend of mine.
I see him after the game. He's like, craziest thing ever.
We're in a shower. That guy comes in fully closed
(05:56):
and knocks out My teammate punches him a couple of times,
knocks around, gets wet in the shower.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Walks right out, walks to your locker room.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
I was like, you want to hear something crazier When
he got in our locker room, the president of the
team gave him.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
A five thousand dollars bonus in cash.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So tough guys do have a role, but there's a
time in which you step out of your role and
it's a little too much.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Trayvon Green's well passed that a little too much.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You would have.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Thought Jordan Poole would level them off in understanding your
ruin last year's team, But I think he's just showing
the frustration so in fact that this year's team is worse,
not better. Let's get to part one. Here's John Higgins,
who I love to say. I call him friend, and
the more you listen to him, I think the more
you like him your basketball journey. If I said, hey,
(06:43):
close your eyes and your first memory as a kid
of playing basketball, it's where.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Playing basketball? It was that where my dad taught and
coached high school bastoketball in Omaha, Nebraska was at a
little jim called Cathedral High School. That's where I remember
starting to play basketballs a little kindergartener because my older
all my older brothers and sisters were played and my
my dad was a coach there. That's where I that's
(07:14):
where I remember starting my basketball career.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
What was your dad like as a coach.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
He hated referees, I mean with a passion. My dad
was brutal on referees. I mean brutal. I mean it was,
it was. He was a big man. He was six
or five and about two seventy five, big man for
back in those days. And uh he was, he was.
They were. All the referees were scared to death of
(07:43):
my dad. I know that.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So so is your career U making making good with
referees or is it all fuck you to your dad?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Like what what?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
No? No, it was making good. It was good. You know.
The funny thing is that, you know, when when he
got out of high school retired all that stuff, he
was the observer at Creighton games. So he would help
back when they were in the Missouri Valley. He would
help the U the Missouri Valley Conference, Eddie Jackson and
Boom er Bin with the observing officials and he would
(08:15):
grade him and that kind of stuff, and uh so
he got to learn at least my side a little bit. However,
when I first started back when you played, and he
used to go to games with me and he would
just torture me on the way home. I said, I
was tell my dad, dad, if you're going to come
with me, you got to be on my team now,
(08:36):
not on the coaches team. It was brutal. He was
really tough on referees.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
It really was so okay. So you grew up in Omahon, Debraska.
What was what was your high school crew? Like?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh, I was at I was an all state basketball player,
but I wasn't good enough to be in a Division one.
I played at University of Basket Carney. Uh And I was
just a average player at best. And you know, we
always had really good teams. Joey went to the national
tournament and did really well, and that was an ANI
(09:11):
back then. That was the Division two back when ANI
I thought was pretty good.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, that was really good.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
But that's been, that's been. You know, that's back when
Jack Sickman, those kind of guys that Terry Porter played.
It was kind of by the way I guarded him
and I held him to forty and his average was
like forty six in the national tournament. I might I
think I might have had six points, but he had forty.
So I felt good about it. Uh. Uh, I was
(09:39):
just an average player best and uh and you know
kind of how I got into officiating is because the
guys back then they had freshman teams and the reference
didn't show up for a junior college game versus star
freshman team. And our coach said, hey, twenty five bucks
and uh and I and I twenty five dollars. Back then,
(10:01):
there's a lot of beer money in your college. Now
you raised my hand. That's how I first started getting
into refereeing.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Well, first, what is where the Nebraska Curry? Where is
that in the state.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
It's about the middle of the state. It's from Omaha.
It's about two and a half hours by car west
of Omaha between here and Denver basically.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And how many people live.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
In the town twenty five thousand.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And how many people go to the school?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Oh, there's probably seven or eight thousand right now.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Good time? Was it a good time? Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
We had a great time. It was a lot of fun,
a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Who is your coach?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Jerry Heezier? He was a long time Well, he was
a great coach. He was an outstanding coach. He's very
he was very straight narrowed, like no nonsense kind of
a guy. But he was a great coach. And we
went to I think we went to the NAI National
tournam at ten twelve years in a row.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So so you what year is this when you all
of a sudden happened upon you know, substitute refereeing for
for him for twenty five bucks.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
So that was like eighty three eighty four.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, okay, so you get done playing in what year?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Eighty four?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So you've done playing? What's your plan?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
My plan? Well, I was coming back to Omaha and I, uh,
actually I was going to teach and I didn't. That
wasn't that was a very good option. I did some
things that might were My dad was at school student
teaching that kind of stuff, and it was like, yeah,
this isn't. This isn't for me. So I went into
(11:48):
and in the summers, uh to backtrack into high school.
Any even my college summers, I was in the me
and my best friend did siding and roofing for his
own and and and I thought, shoot, I could do that.
So I went to work for a company called pace
Setter Windows and Doors. So I sold the windows and
doors for six months and I'm like, this is ridiculous.
(12:11):
The guy come chasing me down the street up out
the front doors that I could do this myself. So uh,
we we started ourselves. And then six months later he
graduated from a Nebraska mall and he moved to Chicago,
and I bought us tools for one thousand dollars and
or his half of the tools, and the rest is history.
Now we've we've we've grown our business to uh decent size.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So so come about your business to do windows? Windows? Doors?
What's it called?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Now? We know? We we we do. We're a roofing, sighting,
gutter company. So we do all kinds of commercial residential roofing, siding,
and guttering. Uh. We've uh we we travel. We don't
just do it in Nebraska, we do it in all
other parts of the country too. Uh. It's on high
end houses and in some commercial properties.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
So how long have you all have you had this?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Eighty? I eighty six. We started it. Yeah, the incorporated
in eighty seven. So then we all we have a
property business also where we own and manage our own
rental properties.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
When you say, well, it's you and who.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
My family, my wife and kids. Now my oldest son
is thirty two and he's he's uh, he's going to
be taking over the business here when whenever I want
to get out. I guess I don't know. I think
I'm out now because they don't they don't care if
I'm in the office or not.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Okay, So you're starting this business.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
When did you start the path becoming one of the
most renowned referees in college basketball?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
When did that path start?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well, they happen. Well, buddy of mine named Paul Caster
got me into he refereed.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
You.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I know that he was a big a guy, Missouri
Valley guy.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
He got me into it in a buddy of mine ndarians.
Although we used to I used to work cyo basketball,
you know, third fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, and
then I got within the year I get into the
high school level. The uh you know, with my dad's
people that he knew. And and then my buddy Paul
(14:20):
Caster got me involved in the high school guy. And
next year, the next thing you know, I'm working freshman
JV in high school and salling year I worked my
first metro game. I thought it was the biggest thing
in the world. It was, you know, the large class
in Omaha for basketball, and and and I from was
(14:42):
from the rest of that.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Had your dad retired at this time?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Uh? Yeah, he had he is not coaching basketball at
this time. No, he was a athletic director at another
Catholic high school here in town. Like we all went
to our Catholic high school. I had eight brothers and sisters. Uh,
and we all went to the same high school, so
we uh. But at that time my dad went to
(15:07):
Ron Colleague Catholic, where he was the athletic character. So
he wasn't all over. I did work games at Rong College, Catholic,
and I did work a game where he was Actually
I think he was a coach at Ron Collie and
my sister was a coach at Cathedral, and it was
it and I think I don't want to I'm not
(15:28):
sure if we teed him or tee his assistantur teed
a player. He was still pissed off of me. Oh
my god, it was brutal. My sister Cecilia was a
coach for the at Cathedral for a year or two
aroun colleague or one of them vice versa. I'm not
sure which was, but it was. That was not fun.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That's that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Okay, So late April actually I started, remember do you
remember Bruce Benedict. I worked I worked Bruce benedict first
of basketball game ever officiated was with me at a
junior high game, or not junior high game, JV game
at Cathedral High School where I went to school. It's
(16:08):
closed now, but Bruce Bendedict started his little basketball career
after baseball. Actually it was just when he was finishing
up in baseball, in professional baseball.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Wait, so eight brothers and sisters, what's the what's the
age gap?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Like, how many I'm second to the youngest, So I
have my oldest brother is seven, the one seventy one
or seventy seventy one, like it happened in ten years.
My mom dad had a lot of kids quickly.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So how many of your brothers and sisters did you
play basketball with in high school?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
None of them. My sisters were too. My oldest brother
was a senior when I was a freshman, and he
was actually he was an All American. Got drafted by
Golden State Warriors back then. He went to Carne also
and back of the day Joe Barry Carroll back when
they had ten rounds. He was at he was the
last pick in the tenth round and he was close
(17:10):
from evidently close to making the team. He played in
Iceland places like that.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports Radio
dot com and within the iHeartRadio app search FSR to
listen live.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
So you start your rep in high school games. You
have your sighting company at the time, did you how
do you advance? Is it going to camps?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So first first, first thing Paul Caster told me said,
you got to go to this referee camp is the
Missouri Valley Referee Camp in Saint Louis. And I and
this is when they were just starting three man. I
had no clue how to work three man, zero clue.
I went to this camp and they were just telling
me where to go and and David phil was the
(18:00):
boss uh back in the Missouri Valley Conference dase uh in.
Davy Phillips was a Major League baseball empire if you
remember that name or not. He uh he was out
of Saint Louis and he uh they so he put
me to this camp, and I did the camp, and
I got I went home and back then we had
the you know, the recordings on the on the you
(18:22):
don't have cell phones and all that stuff. But there
was a tape digital tape thing. So there was my
my girlfriend at the time, wasn't my wife yet she
said some guy named Davy Fields co bullshit. He filled call.
There's no way called because I felt like I you know,
I refereed, I mean did the place, but I had
(18:44):
no idea positioning mechanics, that kind of stuff. He goes, No,
he called. I'm like, okay, So I called. I actually
called the back and and he hired me. And I
was in the eighty seven eighty eight uh that year,
and then I were two or three years for Davy
and then Davey Phillips quit and took the old was
(19:06):
it the Great Midwest or the Great Midwest back then
when Louisville and Cincinnati, when that league was tough, I
mean really hard. So he took that. He took that job.
And boomer bin came off the floor. You remember Jim
boomer Bain refereed you. I'm sure, I mean he was
on every big national game there was.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Uh. He uh.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
He took the job, and then I and I then
uh and every year up to then I only worked
two three games and then the one the one year
his first year, a guy couldn't make a game at
Northern Iowa and uh, so he had me up there.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
He called.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
He was frankly trying to call around, and I got
to the I'm like, yeah, i'll get there. At a
high school game, I'll get there. So I drive up there.
It's about four hours and I ended up whacking up
coach and and he thought I did unbelievable. And boer
Bang was a stickler on bench de korm player to Orham.
Next thing I know, I work. He gives me three
(20:08):
maybe four more games. And I worked the Valley Term
at that year, first first time he's ever had. He
didn't know my name. He just called me big guy, Hey,
big guy.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
And then I worked the Valley term. The next year.
I got hired in the Big Eight and wow from
a guy my named John Erickson. Yeah, and then I
went from there.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So you're ref in the Big Eight. This is late eighties,
early ninety Yeah. What do you make a game?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
By the way, Oh, my first check from the Missouri
val was three hundred and twenty five dollars. I thought
I died went to heaven. I thought, shoot, that's twenty
five thirty back high school games and I worked one
college game for that. I was. My first game was
at Drake and the old Bets Audi touring.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So you're in the Big eight, go ahead, yeah, okay,
So this is Billy Tubbs. Is that Oklahoma?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
My god, Norm Stewart Stewart is that Missouri? H Coach
Sutton first? He had coach ham Lem.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Hamilton letter Hamilton first and coach Sutton. Yeah. Uh, the
guy the crazy Joe from Colorado.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Johnny Or from Iowa State Joe Harrington, Johnny Orr, Roy
Williams or No.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Oh, but I think it was that Nebraska. Wow. Who
was Larry Brown? Then Larry Brown's last year? Then Roy Williams. Okay,
so what are you?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
What's what's the first big, big A game you remember doing?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Iowa State Missouri was the first big one that I
ever worked. And it was with I don't remember a
guy by named ron Zetcher. Remember ron Zetcher from Saint
Louis had real big ears and yes to go like
this with his hair, and he had real deep in
set eyes. Iowa State Missouri, and and I was a
young guy, and I can't I think our other guy
(22:01):
was Billy Westbrook out of Saint Louis. And I'm getting
my ass eating out by both coaches. Finally Zecher went
over to uh, Norm Stewart knocked that ship off, Norm, otherwise,
this ship is gonna go in the tank. Leave that
young kid alone. I'll give him credit. I'll give him credit.
He didn't. He knocked it off and it was up.
(22:22):
And now you remember those days I was staate a Missouri.
Was a hard, hard game with the Antlers in the
one end. Yes, I mean they I'm sure they tortured
you when they were when you played and came in
there was brutal. I mean that was they were nasty,
brutal people, hot dogs and ship coming on the floor.
I mean it was brutal. And they're right on top
of you.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So what did the Antlers have on you?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Oh they called me pretty boy and West Coast boy
and Hollywood and all that, you know, all the all
the ship today I get through.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
You do have really good hair. And I'm sure back
then the hair was it was even more of it.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
It was even Oh yeah, there was more of it. Yeah,
it was not so high. It wasn't so high up
high for it kind of like you and I got
and I caught a lot of shit about that, that's
for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
That older crew, the Johnny Ors, the Billy Tubbs, the
Norm Stewart. It was actually a sweetheart when when the
games games not going.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
On, all of them were and they you know what
they most of them now are They were the greatest
guys in the world when the games aren't going on.
I mean they were like night and day. I was,
it was funny. I was, I did I put the
referees together for so called challenge. And Steve Barnes which
is longtime assistant with Larry Stacey and those guys when
(23:47):
he was a head coach. I mean, this guy he
was always angry, always had the worst angry face in
the world, and he was an asshole in the sideline.
Said what now he's just the nicest man in the
world to me. Uh, It's just it's amazing how different
well they you know, coaches are different. I mean they
think with their heart instead of their brains when it
(24:08):
comes to you know, when light ball action happens. But
outside of the court, they're just like we are. They're
just there's they're there any different than than we are.
But yeah, they're but outside the court, like uh, Norm
Steers were really good guy Eddie said was a wonderful man.
I mean, all those guys were They're good guys off
the court, just they're just fighting for their teams. They're
(24:30):
fighting for their big bait check. They're getting.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
You mentioned bench to Koram and and you know how
you manage that eighties early nineties, you guys let a
lot more stuff go than you let go now.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, I think that was the same thing.
I think, Doug. I think that was partly because remember
the NBA back then, I mean it was very similar
to I mean they let I mean they let that
there were there were wars back then. Now you touch a
guy uh in some in some parts of it and
it's a fall, and that's kind of they want the
(25:06):
freedom of movement and that kind of stuff that back
then the coaches said a lot more than they they
say now, I think, And that's partly because, I mean
there were mandated by the n c Double A or
or and by our leagues that you know, the bench
decorum is is part of sportsman. You know, they want
the sportsmanship part of it being good.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Well, so did your girlfriend, now wife, did she come
into these games?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
She would go to the high school games. Yeah, she
would go to the high school games.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Why why would you subject yourself to that?
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Oh, that's a good question, That's a really good question.
She is funny. She she didn't know anything about basketball,
didn't She's not much of a sports person, but she is.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Now.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Now while you're doing all this, remember this is Kansas
come up national championship. I remember in the year they
went won the national championship, Oklahoma lost in the final four.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Like this is peak Big eight.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Eddie Sutton probably coaches, I mean the offensively not very well,
but defensively he is. I mean, you guys have scored
fifty points in a game, and it was slow down
style basketball, but it was done the right way. But
I was I love, I love how Johnny order I
love I mean, I liked their style too. They got
up and down and it was just a different it
(26:36):
was totally different basketball. It seemed to be back then
than it is now. First time he officiated in the fog,
it was I don't know what year was. I think
it was probably.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Ninety three, in ninety three, ninety ninety three, somewhere in
that ballpark, and it was It's one of those feelings
that you just walk in, You're.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Like, oh god, you're in this big, this shrine of basketball,
and that's it doesn't matter. And they were playing like
anti high school. It was as like the exhibition type
game and they're going to beat them by a hunter.
But it still felt the same. It's like back when
you guys had a rolling in Oklahoma State. I mean,
(27:24):
that place is full every single night, and it felt
the same. It was big. It was big to me,
I know that.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And it's still a special place to play. I mean,
I don't know if you've been to Grand Canyon or not,
but that place is rocking and rolling.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
So my my brother was an assistant there with the
women for the last up until this over the last
three years, and so even for the women, they'll put
one thousand people.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Or so into that place.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
It's crazy. It's crazy, and I mean, did you watch
it last night?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yes, it was insane.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I watched it. I was there in person when they played.
Was oh u t Arlington and that place is crazy,
which is absolutely crazy. And they got they got a rolling,
and you know they're there. They may be different than
other other teams at that level, so I think they
have in I own money.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
They have a million dollars in I own money.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Do they really? Holy smokes? Wow, wow crazy. That's a
great environment, Cameron, indoor is a great environment. Obviously, back
in the back in the day the Oklahoma State when
it was the roof was lowered, that was a.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Great It was incredible. Okay, So what's it like. You're
still pretty young doing it right, and like, look, you're
evaluated by the.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Guy who hires you.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
But these coaches at it now and especially at the time,
are gigantic personalities, you know, Roy Williams, Eddy Sutton, Norm.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Stewart, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
What what is that like as a younger guy where
you know that they're gonna call about you if they
think you didn't do them right.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
What's that experience like?
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Because that's the the prevailing wisdom of the college basketball coaches,
especially the younger ones, is Hey, they're all scared of
the older guys because the older guys know their bosses
and you know, they feel like they got a bad,
bad shake of the officiating.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, then they're they're going to.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Ah, I'm not gonna be working you know, the bigger games,
and I want advance. What what's the real experience like
starting for when you're a young guy, before.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
You became an old when the older.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Guys, I would probably say that when I you know,
when I first started. For me, when you get the
big games and what experienced the referees like high Tower
and Wilmer and O'Neill and guys like that, it was
it was extremely Uh, you're scared to death gonna work
the the Roy Williams and and Johnny Orr and Norman
(30:09):
Stewart's and aye, you're you're originally scared to death. Hold
on one second, could you please our dog is he's okay? Now? Anyway,
you're scared to death. But you know you had to
earn your stripes, uh, with the other with the older referees,
and if you if you showed some courage with them,
(30:33):
most of those guys like that and and would would
would back you with your supervisor. So and I get
that now being the boss of the guys out west,
I get the you know, the you know, a top
referee would say, Hey, that guy's got courage, he's got
he's got balls, he can he'll take care of business.
You know. One thing I always said, Yeah, the coach
(30:55):
may not like me, but he'll respect me, and he'll
know I'll take I'll I'll take John Higgins on the
road any day of the week because he's not going
to be intimidated by the crowd or the coach. And
that's hard that Once you learn that as a young official, Uh,
that gives you more and more confidence that you know
you belong and you could do the job and no
(31:20):
matter what an environment you're in and what coach it is.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So how do you do that? How do you find
that balance?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
You want to make the right call, but you also
want to have you know, as you said, like balls
and the toughness to be like you know what I mean,
It's like you want to be defiant. I guess here's
the question. How do you balance the emotion? Like, like
I said, you want to show that you belong, that
(31:47):
you're not scared. On the other hand, you still want
to call the game. Like what what are you talking
to yourself? What's the message to yourself? How do you
stand up and do your job and do it right
without going too far one way or.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Too far the other?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Probably be really focused on what you're doing and do
your job well and make the right calls and believe
in what you do uh, you know, and then not
everybody has that part of it. And when I say
that it and it's a factor that you know, there's
the great basketball players have that. It can't you can't
(32:23):
teach that it part. You can't teach that judgment part.
If you got good judgment as an official, you'll probably
doesn't matter what your mechanics are like or what have you,
you'll be you all the chance to be pretty good.
If you don't have that good judgment, doesn't matter what
you're if you have courage and that stuff. You have
bad judgment, you get all your plays wrong, You're not
(32:43):
gonna doesn't matter you whack guys, They're gonna they're gonna
fire you because you got bad judgment. That you have
to have both. You have to have courage. You have
to have good judgment to be a really good referee.
And you have to have you know, I always say,
you've gotta have to be you have to have a
little bit of pricking you to be a good referee,
otherwise you'll get you will get tortured out there.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Sure, No, you have to have I mean, honestly, to
be a to be a pack of a player, you
got to have a little brick in.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
You right, exactly. Absolutely, Look at all the great players
of all time, they had that that you know that, Okay,
you're doing this, I'm gonna kick your ass. I'm gonna
shove it right down your throat.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yes, yes, absolutely, So when people talk about mechanics, hey,
when officials talking about mechanics, some of it's positioning.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
But what else is it?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
What goes into the mechanics officienta game properly?
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Oh, it's where you stand, It's it's how you look.
It's how you lift your your fist, how confident you
look when you you put your fist up, your hand up,
you know, just just a lot of it has to
do with positioning, on how you rotate in your within
your position. Uh, there's a there, there's a lot that
goes into the mechanics part of it. Uh, because you
(33:58):
could be one step to the left, one step to
the right, are and you're being the wrong spot on
certain plays. So you know, we're taught a lot of
different positioning things for mechanics. Still, but it's you can
tell if the guy's comfortable in his in his body
and his mechanics, you know, with what you know, he's
(34:19):
got the fist up the right way, he's pointing the
right direction. You know that kind of stuff. But you
can tell by his confidence if he's sure or not
on his calls to buy his mechanics, how he how
he how he, how he presents to the table, how
he walks out to the table, runs out whatever to
the table. That's what I'm talking about. When you have
when the guy's confident, has good mechanics.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
When uh, it's also you're also part of a team, right,
so you have to work Oh yeah, work together? What
what's that dynamic like when you guys get to the
gym and you first meet guys and and remember early
on you knew of these guys, but you didn't know
him nearly as well. What's it like in trying to
figure out, Okay, how am I going to work.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
With this guy?
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Well, a lot of it has to do with you know,
it depends whoever the crew chief is is a big
deal on who you know, how good your game is
going to go. If you've got a good crew chief,
it's a good communicator with with your other officials here,
you one, you two, Uh, you have a chance to
(35:22):
have a good game if you're if you're not a
good communicator and and you know, not well respected by
your you one you too. You can see a game
like that that's that could go down the hill really fast?
Uh you could? You know, all the best officials are
really good communicators and really good teachers and have good
(35:43):
pregames in your locker room. And that's a big part
of it, especially for a young guys. I tell young
guys just listen, listen what the what the crew chiefs
got to say? Uh, and and do what they tell
you to do, and you'll probably be okay and work
as a crew.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
That's it for part one with John Higgins. Part two
You're going to love, including why get out? And what now?
And what would you fix about the game? Reminded the
Doug Gottlief shows three to five Eastern. We also have
a stay available daily and podcast forms type in Doug
Gotlief you can check it out in the meantime. Thanks
so much for listening. I'm Doug gotlie This is all
ball
Hey want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottliebs is all
ball man. Are you gonna love our guest? His name
is John Higgins? Your life?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Really you got John Higgins? Yep?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
John Higgins was up until this year, one of the
most known, most respected, and frankly most employed officials in
college basketball.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
You knew him because he had his golden sandy blonde
brown hair.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
He wore different pants than what seemed like the rest
of college basketball's officials. He had a flash and a flamboyance,
and he was completely unafraid to stare down a coach
or to make a hard call on the road.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
John Niggins is my guest. This is gonna be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
By the way, we do ask about the pants, we
do ask about the hair, and there's incredible stories in.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
This two part discussion.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
But I want to throw this out because we're coming
on the back of Draymond Green and turning around and
punching Nurkic in a game which he was ejected, and
now I'm likely to be suspended. Maybe by the time
this is this dropsy, he's been suspended. It's interesting, like
you do need a guy on your team that everybody
on the other team wants to fight. I always use
(01:20):
the Jorge Gutierrez argument, I or him him as the
as the example, Jorgey Gutier is my brother Greg, who's
an assistant with the women's at Santaye State. But he
was with the men for eight years. He left and
went to cal Berkeley. He went into Finley Prep. And
I could let my brother tell the story, but I'll
tell it instead. So Todd Simon, who's now the head
(01:41):
coach of Bowling Grave, was the head coach at Finley Prep,
and he rolls in freshly into the Pac ten at
Cow and back then it was hard to recruit at
a Pac ten level when you're in at Santae State.
Even though Santay State was growing in popularity, it won
the league and was starting to sell out the arena.
So he's watching all these that Friendly Prep had at
(02:01):
the time, and he turns to Todd says, who should
we go after? He said, the kid with the ponytail
and the kid with the ponytail's names who or you
get to hear? As he'd come from he'd come from Mexico
the year before, gone to a prep school in Denver,
lived with six other kids in a one bedroom apartment
and then transferred to Findley Prep. He shot with two hands.
(02:23):
His body wasn't sculpted. He wasn't an above the rim player.
But Todd Simon said, hey man, when we have a competition,
when we play, his team always wins.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
He's a tough, bad m effort.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And oh yeah, by the way, somebody the other team
wants to fight him every game. So my brother offered
him a scholarship. By his senior year, he was Pack
ten Player of the Year. And you know what, in
four years of cow there wasn't a game he played.
That's somebody the other team didn't want to fight him.
And he played in the NBA, and I believe he's
playing now in Mexico. You have to have those guys,
but Draymond takes it to another level. And that other
(02:54):
level is only the true Like this guy is a psycho.
I don't think the all psychos, you know, but Jason
Sutherland was a guy who was kind of a psycho.
Played for Missouri and you guys remember him. Sure, there's
lots of junk yard dogs out there and guys that
borderline on dirty. I remember Chris Kingsbury as son. Now
(03:15):
I think plays at IOWA, and I don't think he was.
He got caught punching a dude when he wasn't looking.
Coming off of the screen. Kingsbury's number was fourteen, he
told me, and I think everybody know it was because
he loves seven and seven. By the way, seven and
seven refreshing drink Kevin had in a while. Anyway, here's
what I like you to do. You want to participate
(03:35):
in all ball, why don't you tweet at me at
Gottlieb Show or hit me on Instagram. We post this
on your favorite college basketball or NBA Bad Guy and
my bad guy. He hasn't been able to play. Anybody
can have a guy that sits on the end of
the bench and does him play. But when you have
a guy that plays that strikes a little bit of
fear into the heart of your own team and a
(03:55):
lot of fear in the heart of the other team,
it ends up working for you. Draymond's probab is as
he starts to age. Now the theatrics become more grandiose
because he thinks it covers the fact ad I'm played
nearly as well anymore. One last fighting, One last fighting story,
My first year playing overseas, I played in Russia and
we had a couple of Russian guys at the end
(04:16):
of our bench that didn't play that much, and one
of them was about six ' five and pretty strong lifted.
We lifted every day, but he was always in the
height room. And we played against Sessca Moscow and our
best player was named Sergate Chikulkin, and Chica was He
looked like powder, he remember, powder, shaved head, pale skin,
(04:38):
kind of had a weird shot, but man could he
shoot score. He was the best Russian player that year
in the Russian legue. We won the Russian League and
we're playing Sasca in our home gym in perm, Russia,
and towards the end of the game, Chica came open
and a guy and shot faked Joven lane and it
wasn't Roy Rodgers on their team, Rushy Laruez on the
other team and Andre Kerlink was our team, but it
(05:01):
was another thing Russian named corner Koff who had played
in Portland that just leveled him. For the buzzer sounds
and we go to center court and do the you know,
clapping and put our hands up and thank the crowd
and our president of our team comes down from you've
seen Rocky was a Rocky or where they're in Russia,
(05:23):
And you know back then the Soviet Union guys just
sit up at the top of these big chairs. Well
those places still exist in the arenas, only instead of
leaders of Soviet Union and the party, it's your.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Owner of the team.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So he comes down from on high and says something
to one of the guys at been off our bench,
the six to five kind of a ripped up dude,
big muscular guy. Our team goes one way and our
locker of their team goes to another way, and he's
kind of mulling around the court, and eventually I see
him go into the other team's locker room. Well out
the rest of the room is a friend of mine.
I see him after the game. He's like, craziest thing ever.
We're in a shower. That guy comes in fully closed
(05:56):
and knocks out My teammate punches him a couple of times,
knocks around, gets wet in the shower.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Walks right out, walks to your locker room.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
I was like, you want to hear something crazier When
he got in our locker room, the president of the
team gave him.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
A five thousand dollars bonus in cash.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So tough guys do have a role, but there's a
time in which you step out of your role and
it's a little too much.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Trayvon Green's well passed that a little too much.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You would have.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Thought Jordan Poole would level them off in understanding your
ruin last year's team, But I think he's just showing
the frustration so in fact that this year's team is worse,
not better. Let's get to part one. Here's John Higgins,
who I love to say. I call him friend, and
the more you listen to him, I think the more
you like him your basketball journey. If I said, hey,
(06:43):
close your eyes and your first memory as a kid
of playing basketball, it's where.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Playing basketball? It was that where my dad taught and
coached high school bastoketball in Omaha, Nebraska was at a
little jim called Cathedral High School. That's where I remember
starting to play basketballs a little kindergartener because my older
all my older brothers and sisters were played and my
my dad was a coach there. That's where I that's
(07:14):
where I remember starting my basketball career.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
What was your dad like as a coach.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
He hated referees, I mean with a passion. My dad
was brutal on referees. I mean brutal. I mean it was,
it was. He was a big man. He was six
or five and about two seventy five, big man for
back in those days. And uh he was, he was.
They were. All the referees were scared to death of
(07:43):
my dad. I know that.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So so is your career U making making good with
referees or is it all fuck you to your dad?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Like what what?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
No? No, it was making good. It was good. You know.
The funny thing is that, you know, when when he
got out of high school retired all that stuff, he
was the observer at Creighton games. So he would help
back when they were in the Missouri Valley. He would
help the U the Missouri Valley Conference, Eddie Jackson and
Boom er Bin with the observing officials and he would
(08:15):
grade him and that kind of stuff, and uh so
he got to learn at least my side a little bit. However,
when I first started back when you played, and he
used to go to games with me and he would
just torture me on the way home. I said, I
was tell my dad, dad, if you're going to come
with me, you got to be on my team now,
(08:36):
not on the coaches team. It was brutal. He was
really tough on referees.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
It really was so okay. So you grew up in Omahon, Debraska.
What was what was your high school crew? Like?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh, I was at I was an all state basketball player,
but I wasn't good enough to be in a Division one.
I played at University of Basket Carney. Uh And I was
just a average player at best. And you know, we
always had really good teams. Joey went to the national
tournament and did really well, and that was an ANI
(09:11):
back then. That was the Division two back when ANI
I thought was pretty good.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, that was really good.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
But that's been, that's been. You know, that's back when
Jack Sickman, those kind of guys that Terry Porter played.
It was kind of by the way I guarded him
and I held him to forty and his average was
like forty six in the national tournament. I might I
think I might have had six points, but he had forty.
So I felt good about it. Uh. Uh, I was
(09:39):
just an average player best and uh and you know
kind of how I got into officiating is because the
guys back then they had freshman teams and the reference
didn't show up for a junior college game versus star
freshman team. And our coach said, hey, twenty five bucks
and uh and I and I twenty five dollars. Back then,
(10:01):
there's a lot of beer money in your college. Now
you raised my hand. That's how I first started getting
into refereeing.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Well, first, what is where the Nebraska Curry? Where is
that in the state.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
It's about the middle of the state. It's from Omaha.
It's about two and a half hours by car west
of Omaha between here and Denver basically.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And how many people live.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
In the town twenty five thousand.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And how many people go to the school?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Oh, there's probably seven or eight thousand right now.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Good time? Was it a good time? Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
We had a great time. It was a lot of fun,
a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Who is your coach?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Jerry Heezier? He was a long time Well, he was
a great coach. He was an outstanding coach. He's very
he was very straight narrowed, like no nonsense kind of
a guy. But he was a great coach. And we
went to I think we went to the NAI National
tournam at ten twelve years in a row.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So so you what year is this when you all
of a sudden happened upon you know, substitute refereeing for
for him for twenty five bucks.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
So that was like eighty three eighty four.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, okay, so you get done playing in what year?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Eighty four?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So you've done playing? What's your plan?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
My plan? Well, I was coming back to Omaha and I, uh,
actually I was going to teach and I didn't. That
wasn't that was a very good option. I did some
things that might were My dad was at school student
teaching that kind of stuff, and it was like, yeah,
this isn't. This isn't for me. So I went into
(11:48):
and in the summers, uh to backtrack into high school.
Any even my college summers, I was in the me
and my best friend did siding and roofing for his
own and and and I thought, shoot, I could do that.
So I went to work for a company called pace
Setter Windows and Doors. So I sold the windows and
doors for six months and I'm like, this is ridiculous.
(12:11):
The guy come chasing me down the street up out
the front doors that I could do this myself. So uh,
we we started ourselves. And then six months later he
graduated from a Nebraska mall and he moved to Chicago,
and I bought us tools for one thousand dollars and
or his half of the tools, and the rest is history.
Now we've we've we've grown our business to uh decent size.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So so come about your business to do windows? Windows? Doors?
What's it called?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Now? We know? We we we do. We're a roofing, sighting,
gutter company. So we do all kinds of commercial residential roofing, siding,
and guttering. Uh. We've uh we we travel. We don't
just do it in Nebraska, we do it in all
other parts of the country too. Uh. It's on high
end houses and in some commercial properties.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
So how long have you all have you had this?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Eighty? I eighty six. We started it. Yeah, the incorporated
in eighty seven. So then we all we have a
property business also where we own and manage our own
rental properties.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
When you say, well, it's you and who.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
My family, my wife and kids. Now my oldest son
is thirty two and he's he's uh, he's going to
be taking over the business here when whenever I want
to get out. I guess I don't know. I think
I'm out now because they don't they don't care if
I'm in the office or not.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Okay, So you're starting this business.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
When did you start the path becoming one of the
most renowned referees in college basketball?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
When did that path start?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well, they happen. Well, buddy of mine named Paul Caster
got me into he refereed.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
You.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I know that he was a big a guy, Missouri
Valley guy.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
He got me into it in a buddy of mine ndarians.
Although we used to I used to work cyo basketball,
you know, third fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, and
then I got within the year I get into the
high school level. The uh you know, with my dad's
people that he knew. And and then my buddy Paul
(14:20):
Caster got me involved in the high school guy. And
next year, the next thing you know, I'm working freshman
JV in high school and salling year I worked my
first metro game. I thought it was the biggest thing
in the world. It was, you know, the large class
in Omaha for basketball, and and and I from was
(14:42):
from the rest of that.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Had your dad retired at this time?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Uh? Yeah, he had he is not coaching basketball at
this time. No, he was a athletic director at another
Catholic high school here in town. Like we all went
to our Catholic high school. I had eight brothers and sisters. Uh,
and we all went to the same high school, so
we uh. But at that time my dad went to
(15:07):
Ron Colleague Catholic, where he was the athletic character. So
he wasn't all over. I did work games at Rong College, Catholic,
and I did work a game where he was Actually
I think he was a coach at Ron Collie and
my sister was a coach at Cathedral, and it was
it and I think I don't want to I'm not
(15:28):
sure if we teed him or tee his assistantur teed
a player. He was still pissed off of me. Oh
my god, it was brutal. My sister Cecilia was a
coach for the at Cathedral for a year or two
aroun colleague or one of them vice versa. I'm not
sure which was, but it was. That was not fun.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That's that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Okay, So late April actually I started, remember do you
remember Bruce Benedict. I worked I worked Bruce benedict first
of basketball game ever officiated was with me at a
junior high game, or not junior high game, JV game
at Cathedral High School where I went to school. It's
(16:08):
closed now, but Bruce Bendedict started his little basketball career
after baseball. Actually it was just when he was finishing
up in baseball, in professional baseball.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Wait, so eight brothers and sisters, what's the what's the
age gap?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Like, how many I'm second to the youngest, So I
have my oldest brother is seven, the one seventy one
or seventy seventy one, like it happened in ten years.
My mom dad had a lot of kids quickly.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So how many of your brothers and sisters did you
play basketball with in high school?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
None of them. My sisters were too. My oldest brother
was a senior when I was a freshman, and he
was actually he was an All American. Got drafted by
Golden State Warriors back then. He went to Carne also
and back of the day Joe Barry Carroll back when
they had ten rounds. He was at he was the
last pick in the tenth round and he was close
(17:10):
from evidently close to making the team. He played in
Iceland places like that.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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listen live.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
So you start your rep in high school games. You
have your sighting company at the time, did you how
do you advance? Is it going to camps?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So first first, first thing Paul Caster told me said,
you got to go to this referee camp is the
Missouri Valley Referee Camp in Saint Louis. And I and
this is when they were just starting three man. I
had no clue how to work three man, zero clue.
I went to this camp and they were just telling
me where to go and and David phil was the
(18:00):
boss uh back in the Missouri Valley Conference dase uh in.
Davy Phillips was a Major League baseball empire if you
remember that name or not. He uh he was out
of Saint Louis and he uh they so he put
me to this camp, and I did the camp, and
I got I went home and back then we had
the you know, the recordings on the on the you
(18:22):
don't have cell phones and all that stuff. But there
was a tape digital tape thing. So there was my
my girlfriend at the time, wasn't my wife yet she
said some guy named Davy Fields co bullshit. He filled call.
There's no way called because I felt like I you know,
I refereed, I mean did the place, but I had
(18:44):
no idea positioning mechanics, that kind of stuff. He goes, No,
he called. I'm like, okay, So I called. I actually
called the back and and he hired me. And I
was in the eighty seven eighty eight uh that year,
and then I were two or three years for Davy
and then Davey Phillips quit and took the old was
(19:06):
it the Great Midwest or the Great Midwest back then
when Louisville and Cincinnati, when that league was tough, I
mean really hard. So he took that. He took that job.
And boomer bin came off the floor. You remember Jim
boomer Bain refereed you. I'm sure, I mean he was
on every big national game there was.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Uh. He uh.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
He took the job, and then I and I then
uh and every year up to then I only worked
two three games and then the one the one year
his first year, a guy couldn't make a game at
Northern Iowa and uh, so he had me up there.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
He called.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
He was frankly trying to call around, and I got
to the I'm like, yeah, i'll get there. At a
high school game, I'll get there. So I drive up there.
It's about four hours and I ended up whacking up
coach and and he thought I did unbelievable. And boer
Bang was a stickler on bench de korm player to Orham.
Next thing I know, I work. He gives me three
(20:08):
maybe four more games. And I worked the Valley Term
at that year, first first time he's ever had. He
didn't know my name. He just called me big guy, Hey,
big guy.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
And then I worked the Valley term. The next year.
I got hired in the Big Eight and wow from
a guy my named John Erickson. Yeah, and then I
went from there.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So you're ref in the Big Eight. This is late eighties,
early ninety Yeah. What do you make a game?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
By the way, Oh, my first check from the Missouri
val was three hundred and twenty five dollars. I thought
I died went to heaven. I thought, shoot, that's twenty
five thirty back high school games and I worked one
college game for that. I was. My first game was
at Drake and the old Bets Audi touring.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So you're in the Big eight, go ahead, yeah, okay,
So this is Billy Tubbs. Is that Oklahoma?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
My god, Norm Stewart Stewart is that Missouri? H Coach
Sutton first? He had coach ham Lem.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Hamilton letter Hamilton first and coach Sutton. Yeah. Uh, the
guy the crazy Joe from Colorado.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Johnny Or from Iowa State Joe Harrington, Johnny Orr, Roy
Williams or No.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Oh, but I think it was that Nebraska. Wow. Who
was Larry Brown? Then Larry Brown's last year? Then Roy Williams. Okay,
so what are you?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
What's what's the first big, big A game you remember doing?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Iowa State Missouri was the first big one that I
ever worked. And it was with I don't remember a
guy by named ron Zetcher. Remember ron Zetcher from Saint
Louis had real big ears and yes to go like
this with his hair, and he had real deep in
set eyes. Iowa State Missouri, and and I was a
young guy, and I can't I think our other guy
(22:01):
was Billy Westbrook out of Saint Louis. And I'm getting
my ass eating out by both coaches. Finally Zecher went
over to uh, Norm Stewart knocked that ship off, Norm, otherwise,
this ship is gonna go in the tank. Leave that
young kid alone. I'll give him credit. I'll give him credit.
He didn't. He knocked it off and it was up.
(22:22):
And now you remember those days I was staate a Missouri.
Was a hard, hard game with the Antlers in the
one end. Yes, I mean they I'm sure they tortured
you when they were when you played and came in
there was brutal. I mean that was they were nasty,
brutal people, hot dogs and ship coming on the floor.
I mean it was brutal. And they're right on top
of you.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So what did the Antlers have on you?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Oh they called me pretty boy and West Coast boy
and Hollywood and all that, you know, all the all
the ship today I get through.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
You do have really good hair. And I'm sure back
then the hair was it was even more of it.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
It was even Oh yeah, there was more of it. Yeah,
it was not so high. It wasn't so high up
high for it kind of like you and I got
and I caught a lot of shit about that, that's
for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
That older crew, the Johnny Ors, the Billy Tubbs, the
Norm Stewart. It was actually a sweetheart when when the
games games not going.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
On, all of them were and they you know what
they most of them now are They were the greatest
guys in the world when the games aren't going on.
I mean they were like night and day. I was,
it was funny. I was, I did I put the
referees together for so called challenge. And Steve Barnes which
is longtime assistant with Larry Stacey and those guys when
(23:47):
he was a head coach. I mean, this guy he
was always angry, always had the worst angry face in
the world, and he was an asshole in the sideline.
Said what now he's just the nicest man in the
world to me. Uh, It's just it's amazing how different
well they you know, coaches are different. I mean they
think with their heart instead of their brains when it
(24:08):
comes to you know, when light ball action happens. But
outside of the court, they're just like we are. They're
just there's they're there any different than than we are.
But yeah, they're but outside the court, like uh, Norm
Steers were really good guy Eddie said was a wonderful man.
I mean, all those guys were They're good guys off
the court, just they're just fighting for their teams. They're
(24:30):
fighting for their big bait check. They're getting.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
You mentioned bench to Koram and and you know how
you manage that eighties early nineties, you guys let a
lot more stuff go than you let go now.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, I think that was the same thing.
I think, Doug. I think that was partly because remember
the NBA back then, I mean it was very similar
to I mean they let I mean they let that
there were there were wars back then. Now you touch a
guy uh in some in some parts of it and
it's a fall, and that's kind of they want the
(25:06):
freedom of movement and that kind of stuff that back
then the coaches said a lot more than they they
say now, I think, And that's partly because, I mean
there were mandated by the n c Double A or
or and by our leagues that you know, the bench
decorum is is part of sportsman. You know, they want
the sportsmanship part of it being good.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Well, so did your girlfriend, now wife, did she come
into these games?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
She would go to the high school games. Yeah, she
would go to the high school games.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Why why would you subject yourself to that?
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Oh, that's a good question, That's a really good question.
She is funny. She she didn't know anything about basketball,
didn't She's not much of a sports person, but she is.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Now.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Now while you're doing all this, remember this is Kansas
come up national championship. I remember in the year they
went won the national championship, Oklahoma lost in the final four.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Like this is peak Big eight.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Eddie Sutton probably coaches, I mean the offensively not very well,
but defensively he is. I mean, you guys have scored
fifty points in a game, and it was slow down
style basketball, but it was done the right way. But
I was I love, I love how Johnny order I
love I mean, I liked their style too. They got
up and down and it was just a different it
(26:36):
was totally different basketball. It seemed to be back then
than it is now. First time he officiated in the fog,
it was I don't know what year was. I think
it was probably.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Ninety three, in ninety three, ninety ninety three, somewhere in
that ballpark, and it was It's one of those feelings
that you just walk in, You're.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Like, oh god, you're in this big, this shrine of basketball,
and that's it doesn't matter. And they were playing like
anti high school. It was as like the exhibition type
game and they're going to beat them by a hunter.
But it still felt the same. It's like back when
you guys had a rolling in Oklahoma State. I mean,
(27:24):
that place is full every single night, and it felt
the same. It was big. It was big to me,
I know that.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And it's still a special place to play. I mean,
I don't know if you've been to Grand Canyon or not,
but that place is rocking and rolling.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
So my my brother was an assistant there with the
women for the last up until this over the last
three years, and so even for the women, they'll put
one thousand people.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Or so into that place.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
It's crazy. It's crazy, and I mean, did you watch
it last night?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yes, it was insane.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I watched it. I was there in person when they played.
Was oh u t Arlington and that place is crazy,
which is absolutely crazy. And they got they got a rolling,
and you know they're there. They may be different than
other other teams at that level, so I think they
have in I own money.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
They have a million dollars in I own money.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Do they really? Holy smokes? Wow, wow crazy. That's a
great environment, Cameron, indoor is a great environment. Obviously, back
in the back in the day the Oklahoma State when
it was the roof was lowered, that was a.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Great It was incredible. Okay, So what's it like. You're
still pretty young doing it right, and like, look, you're
evaluated by the.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Guy who hires you.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
But these coaches at it now and especially at the time,
are gigantic personalities, you know, Roy Williams, Eddy Sutton, Norm.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Stewart, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
What what is that like as a younger guy where
you know that they're gonna call about you if they
think you didn't do them right.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
What's that experience like?
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Because that's the the prevailing wisdom of the college basketball coaches,
especially the younger ones, is Hey, they're all scared of
the older guys because the older guys know their bosses
and you know, they feel like they got a bad,
bad shake of the officiating.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, then they're they're going to.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Ah, I'm not gonna be working you know, the bigger games,
and I want advance. What what's the real experience like
starting for when you're a young guy, before.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
You became an old when the older.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Guys, I would probably say that when I you know,
when I first started. For me, when you get the
big games and what experienced the referees like high Tower
and Wilmer and O'Neill and guys like that, it was
it was extremely Uh, you're scared to death gonna work
the the Roy Williams and and Johnny Orr and Norman
(30:09):
Stewart's and aye, you're you're originally scared to death. Hold
on one second, could you please our dog is he's okay? Now? Anyway,
you're scared to death. But you know you had to
earn your stripes, uh, with the other with the older referees,
and if you if you showed some courage with them,
(30:33):
most of those guys like that and and would would
would back you with your supervisor. So and I get
that now being the boss of the guys out west,
I get the you know, the you know, a top
referee would say, Hey, that guy's got courage, he's got
he's got balls, he can he'll take care of business.
You know. One thing I always said, Yeah, the coach
(30:55):
may not like me, but he'll respect me, and he'll
know I'll take I'll I'll take John Higgins on the
road any day of the week because he's not going
to be intimidated by the crowd or the coach. And
that's hard that Once you learn that as a young official, Uh,
that gives you more and more confidence that you know
you belong and you could do the job and no
(31:20):
matter what an environment you're in and what coach it is.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So how do you do that? How do you find
that balance?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
You want to make the right call, but you also
want to have you know, as you said, like balls
and the toughness to be like you know what I mean,
It's like you want to be defiant. I guess here's
the question. How do you balance the emotion? Like, like
I said, you want to show that you belong, that
(31:47):
you're not scared. On the other hand, you still want
to call the game. Like what what are you talking
to yourself? What's the message to yourself? How do you
stand up and do your job and do it right
without going too far one way or.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Too far the other?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Probably be really focused on what you're doing and do
your job well and make the right calls and believe
in what you do uh, you know, and then not
everybody has that part of it. And when I say
that it and it's a factor that you know, there's
the great basketball players have that. It can't you can't
(32:23):
teach that it part. You can't teach that judgment part.
If you got good judgment as an official, you'll probably
doesn't matter what your mechanics are like or what have you,
you'll be you all the chance to be pretty good.
If you don't have that good judgment, doesn't matter what
you're if you have courage and that stuff. You have
bad judgment, you get all your plays wrong, You're not
(32:43):
gonna doesn't matter you whack guys, They're gonna they're gonna
fire you because you got bad judgment. That you have
to have both. You have to have courage. You have
to have good judgment to be a really good referee.
And you have to have you know, I always say,
you've gotta have to be you have to have a
little bit of pricking you to be a good referee,
otherwise you'll get you will get tortured out there.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Sure, No, you have to have I mean, honestly, to
be a to be a pack of a player, you
got to have a little brick in.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
You right, exactly. Absolutely, Look at all the great players
of all time, they had that that you know that, Okay,
you're doing this, I'm gonna kick your ass. I'm gonna
shove it right down your throat.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yes, yes, absolutely, So when people talk about mechanics, hey,
when officials talking about mechanics, some of it's positioning.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
But what else is it?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
What goes into the mechanics officienta game properly?
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Oh, it's where you stand, It's it's how you look.
It's how you lift your your fist, how confident you
look when you you put your fist up, your hand up,
you know, just just a lot of it has to
do with positioning, on how you rotate in your within
your position. Uh, there's a there, there's a lot that
goes into the mechanics part of it. Uh, because you
(33:58):
could be one step to the left, one step to
the right, are and you're being the wrong spot on
certain plays. So you know, we're taught a lot of
different positioning things for mechanics. Still, but it's you can
tell if the guy's comfortable in his in his body
and his mechanics, you know, with what you know, he's
(34:19):
got the fist up the right way, he's pointing the
right direction. You know that kind of stuff. But you
can tell by his confidence if he's sure or not
on his calls to buy his mechanics, how he how
he how he, how he presents to the table, how
he walks out to the table, runs out whatever to
the table. That's what I'm talking about. When you have
when the guy's confident, has good mechanics.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
When uh, it's also you're also part of a team, right,
so you have to work Oh yeah, work together? What
what's that dynamic like when you guys get to the
gym and you first meet guys and and remember early
on you knew of these guys, but you didn't know
him nearly as well. What's it like in trying to
figure out, Okay, how am I going to work.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
With this guy?
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Well, a lot of it has to do with you know,
it depends whoever the crew chief is is a big
deal on who you know, how good your game is
going to go. If you've got a good crew chief,
it's a good communicator with with your other officials here,
you one, you two, Uh, you have a chance to
(35:22):
have a good game if you're if you're not a
good communicator and and you know, not well respected by
your you one you too. You can see a game
like that that's that could go down the hill really fast?
Uh you could? You know, all the best officials are
really good communicators and really good teachers and have good
(35:43):
pregames in your locker room. And that's a big part
of it, especially for a young guys. I tell young
guys just listen, listen what the what the crew chiefs
got to say? Uh, and and do what they tell
you to do, and you'll probably be okay and work
as a crew.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
That's it for part one with John Higgins. Part two
You're going to love, including why get out? And what now?
And what would you fix about the game? Reminded the
Doug Gottlief shows three to five Eastern. We also have
a stay available daily and podcast forms type in Doug
Gotlief you can check it out in the meantime. Thanks
so much for listening. I'm Doug gotlie This is all
ball
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