November 11, 2023 • 47 mins
Doug is joined by Author Roland Lazenby to discuss his new biography Magic: The Life of Earvin ‘Magic’ Johnson, including Magic’s rivalry with Michael, his mother’s influence, his unique relationship with Kareem, why Paul Westhead didn’t work, and the cultural impact of his HIV announcement.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, want to walk a bit. I'm Doug Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is All Ball. Roland Lazarie's my guest. He's written
a new book about Magic Johnson. Magic Johnson. I'm excited
because you know, I grew up in southern California. My
family moved there in nineteen eighty one and was basically
around for the entire Yeah, we were off for the
(00:30):
whole Showtime era, and it concluded really with Magic Johnson's
announcement that he contracted HIV, which kind of brings me
to how I get into this, this version of All Ball.
And when you think of the places you're what you
were when things happened, where were you in Magic announced
he at HIV? It was about this time of year surely.
(00:53):
Actually before the season began, I was at Tustin High School.
And the way it works in southern California in high
school basketball is until you have till practices start, you
have sixth period. Your final period of the day is
your pe is your basketball class. So it becomes like
at the facto practice, but it's just not considered practice
(01:14):
time and you only have the time of whatever your
class schedule is. Right, And I'll never forget that we
had a team meeting on the court and my coaches
before my freshman year.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
My coach was a man named Tom McCluskey.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Tommy was the head coach the year before when they
won the state championship. He played for Dick Hard at
Penn State. It's a big dude, about six seven six eight.
Incredible coach and also really about the kind of life.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Lessons you learn in sports.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And I mean, I justticularly remember it to this day
that he called us all in to sit on the
court and he said, boys, in about a half hour,
there's going to be a press conference with the Lakers.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Magic Johnson is going to retire.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And we were just like all stunned because you remember,
this is Magic Johnson and though he wasn't at his peak.
They had just come off the NBA Finals, but they
got beat four games to one by the Chicago Bulls.
So this is really and and back then in the NBA,
you know, outside of the Olympics, the next the following summer,
(02:25):
you didn't really hear from NBA players in the offseason,
and the Bulls won. It was Michael Jordan's first championship.
It became about Jordan it became about him taking over
the league. And it wasn't that you didn't think about
Magic Johnson. But you weren't really thinking about Magic Johnson.
It's not like the daily drama you have these days,
when lots of reagent player movement, guys forcing trades. All
(02:49):
that didn't simply didn't exist. Yeah, the NBA Draft and
then I don't know you'd see them in the in
the preseason. That was basically it. So Magic Johnson's going
to retire. Those words kind of hung for a couple
of seconds, but he's going to retire because he's contracted
something called HIV. And then I remember him saying which
(03:12):
eventually leads to eights, which means he's going to die.
It's from unprotected sex. And you know, this is a
real thing. You need to discuss with your parents what
all these things mean. But you know, just know, I
know a lot of you guys love watching Magic play.
(03:33):
I love watching Magic play. He's not gonna play basketball anymore,
and you know, it's it's really really sad, and this
disease is really really scary, and you guys have to
understand the world and which you live in, how to
protect yourself from so you guys want to take five
minutes and catch your breath. Anyway, there's guys crying. I
(03:56):
remember our best player was a senior named Gentry More
signed the letter of intend to go to TCU, and
Gentry was he was a mess. And then we practiced
for a little bit, and then we went into his
office and watched the press conference and then wiped away tears,
practiced some more.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So was a really kind of emotional day. But I'll
contend with you this.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And I'll put out another pod here in the next
day or two and I'll kind of run down all
the different basketball stuff because the Lakers just beat the Suns,
and there's some really good stuff going on with the Lakers,
despite the fact that they had lost every road game.
The Sun's still not healthy. The Clippers complete mess since
(04:36):
the hard and trade. Uh Luca put on a performance
for the Ages twenty one shots and he had what
forty six points or something.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's just great. It's just crazy that guy can do.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
And then of course you got college basketball where Arizona
beats Duke at Duke.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
More of those games plays.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Baylor looked amazing in their comeback win against Auburn, but
as we roll into basketball season and with Lebron James
continuing to play and star and be a you know,
probably a top twenty, top fifteen maybe player in the
NBA at thirty nine years old. Lost in the greatest
(05:16):
of all time debates somehow is Maggie Johnson.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I granted, he didn't play as long as Lebron, and
he didn't play as long as as Michael Jordan, but
all the NBA titles, the MVPs, he changed, the sport,
changed the position. He's I believe, considered a billionaire. He's
(05:41):
like what Lebron would have been like had Lebron come
out in that era. That makes sense and when you
run in Dominata.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
League as well as well. First you say he built
up college basketball. Remember the most watched college basketball National
Championship game of all time as Bird versus Magic.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
That allowed the sport to kind of breakout.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So I don't know if he saved or fixed or
started March Madness, but he deserves credit, so does Larry Bird,
and by most accounts, he saved the NBA along with
Larry Bird. The dynamic of white versus Black, East versus West,
you know, slow and steady versus playing fast, all these
different all these different things at play for a time.
(06:24):
And remember this is during the Magic Bird and then
Michael Era, the NBA was actually king how how we
view football in terms of dominating sports on TV was
how we viewed the NBA back then. Obviously, the advent
of fantasy football, proliferation of gambling, honestly, probably the proliferation
(06:47):
of basketball on TV we get maybe too much now
has watered down the product, water down the ratings, and
football has caught passed, even boat raced the NBA. But
to give true context to how big Magic was is
to tell you that when he announced his retirement due
(07:08):
to HIV, he was the significant superstar in the world
that brought it to the forefront. Because previous to Magic.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
HIV was seen as a gay an's disease.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
It wasn't anything that people discussed at length in high schools.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Just wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And in my lifetime, the poignant moments that made me
really think and understand adult things len Bias dying after
using cocaine, I would say, obviously Magic Johnson and then
probably Jason Williams with the gun stuff at his house
(07:47):
in New Jersey. There's been some you know, maybe plexico
bursts in terms of guns can go off and how
the legal guns are and all the different elements to it.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
But Magic the player. He is one that you can't
really describe.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
The presence that he had because now I think if
you're you know, if you're thirty five or younger, you
see some of the passes and he thought like, well
that was it, Like he was a fancy passer on
the fast break. Nah. He had this mix of pinache presence.
He hid big shots, and he did it all despite
the fact that while he was big and way bigger
(08:28):
than anyone who had played his position previously, he wasn't
crazy athletics, but he always got to where he needed
to get to. Maybe though he had a weird kind
of push shot and began as a non shooter.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
By the end of his career, he is a very
good shoot.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
He always seemed to be able to get things done
in spite of whatever his weaknesses.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But more than anything, he had a presence. You know.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
A couple of years later later he was going to
come back with the Lakers. And when he came back
with the Lakers, he was playing in their preseason. I
remember we went to the before it was the it
was the Fabulous Forum. That was a great Midwest Forum.
We went to the Forum to see this. It was
a preseason doubleheader. It's called like the Great Midwest Shootout.
And I think it was like the Kings, the Clippers,
(09:16):
the Warriors.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And the Lakers. And then don't hold me to that.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It may have been one of the other Western teams,
but maybe the Super Sonics instead of the Clippers.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But how I remember it.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Was the Lakers would play the Warriors one night and
play the Kings the next night. It was like a
way of playing preseason games and saving some money.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And putting them all on one build.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
And after the first game, the Lakers came out and
everybody from the Lakers was warming.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Up, and then Magic took the court and it was
it was Magic.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
He just had a way of playing where you couldn't
ever get up and go get popcorn because you thought
you were going to miss something.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
All right, let's get to this podcast. Roll ask me.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
He's an incredible author. I don't need to go through
all his books. Here's my discussion with him in regards
to his new Magic Johnson book. Roland, thanks so much
for taking time with me. What Triger, do you to
write this book?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
You know, it was one I wanted to do earlier.
The publishing industry is also into analytics like everything else,
especially sports, and they weren't sure about the analytics on
this one. I obviously, I did Michael Jordan of Life
for Little Brown, and they preferred Kobe over Magic, and
(10:34):
I was happy because I'd spent a lot of time
with Kobe, and so both of those books been really
successful globally too. But I switched to McMillan and they
were eager to do Magic when I proposed it. And
you know, Magic's one of the great great stories. He
(10:58):
changed so many things about the game.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
He did, and it's really interesting. I'm old enough, and
obviously you're older than me, but I'm old enough to
understand the dynamic of Magic Johnson. He changed college basketball, right,
I mean, college basketball's popularity is directly related to Magic Johnson.
The NBA's popularity is directly related to Magic Johnny. And
(11:26):
it's interesting because up until recently he's kind of done
the aw shucks thing.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
He called Kobe the greatest Laker, which it's just not true.
He's he doesn't insert himself into the greatest player of
all time discussion, which he absolutely should be. And I
think it's really smart, right because to those of us
(11:55):
who truly understand the dynamic of human nature, usually it
should be you don't say though things, you let other
people say those things.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
The problem is that time not really on his side, right,
and this generation didn't see him play. How do you
think Magic really feels about his own contributions to the game.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Oh, I think that he feels his style of play,
his approach to the game isn't valued as much anymore.
I think that he's a guy that probably you know,
(12:38):
he's been competing with Michael Jordan for a long time now,
they're still competing furiously. Michael just reached a three billion
dollar level in wealth. Magic cross the billion dollar line.
You know. Magic's had to work furiously to get that billion,
and Michael's works some He's done a lot of smart
(12:58):
things made smart and vestments. But you know, the Nike
deal he got was the game changer there, and so
Magic is still hungry. He has things to prove. He
has learned that you can't prove them all by saying
(13:20):
things about yourself, you know, but he is at that
level where he's willing to remind people.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Now he started recently. It's a recent trend which I
really actually really like because I know it to be true. Right,
So you decide to write this, the analytics said, Kobe,
you finally get the green light. What's the process like
of compiling all these interviews and talking to people and
putting this together?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Well, you know it's Pete Noule told me years ago.
I did a Jerry West biography for ESPN Books in
two thy and ten, and years before Newell had told
me that if I wanted to understand Jerry West, I
really had to understand West Virginia. And Pete Noule got
(14:12):
my attention. You know, I went really deep into the
Jerry West background and discovered an amazing story there. I
did the same, attempted to do the same with Michael
Michael Jordan books now in twenty one languages. It just
came out in Portuguese and he is a global, global guy,
(14:35):
and Kobe twelve languages. You know, American basketball couldn't get
anybody's attention for decades, and here comes magic, here comes Larry.
You know, the ratings in the NBA have just fallen
twenty five percent in one year for regular season TV games,
(14:58):
and those guys, you know, it wasn't some grand introduction.
The teams were losing money, but they the way they
played was something different and it got everybody's attention. And
suddenly here comes David Stern. He's thinking big, no more
that small, thinking of the past. And then the Dream Team,
(15:23):
then the Magic Johnson all stars all over the place,
and American basketball is ridiculous in its global reach.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Now you said, the most important thing we're writing the
Jerry Westbrook is get to know West Virginia. So when
you're writing on Magic Johnson, what do you have to
get to know to know Magic Johnson.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Well, it's a perfect comparison because Michael Jordan's mother, who
came off the coastal plain of North Carolina out of
that abysmal sharecropping culture that had trapped so many fans
families black and white. Well, Michael's mother and Magic's mother,
(16:07):
she too came out of that sharecropping culture. And these
are two women who in their own ways are really determined.
And so I had to get to understand North Carolina
really well. I thought I had with my Michael Jordan book,
but I was really able to get a lot of
(16:29):
much deeper background. And you know, Magic was such a
big thing in Michael's life, and so the parallel between
those two sort of continued from looking at that background
looking at their families. In a sense, Michael Jordan was
(16:54):
very obscure as a teenager. Magic Johnson, on the other hand,
in different ways, was man. He was He had a
lot of power at age fifteen, an amazing amount of power,
and he was by then his family. Of course, he
was born in Lansing, Michigan. He happened along right as
(17:20):
they were doing all of the bussing for racial integration,
and he ended up right smack dab in the middle
of that. But the main thing about in regards to basketball,
the main thing that I try to do is to
sort of find the organic player Kobe. I wanted to
(17:42):
find the organic Kobe because there were a lot of
misconceptions about him. Michael's organic nature was pretty much on display.
But Magic, you know, he's got the big smile, he's
passing out assists. But that dude was a control free
from an early age. His high school teammate, who became
(18:05):
his best man, Dale Beard, told me, he said, you
know I couldn't play my game with Magic. I had
to play the way he wanted me to play, or
I wasn't going to play. And Magic didn't just control
his teammates, he controlled his coaches. And that is that
(18:29):
is a determined teenager to accomplish that.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's fascinating because I grew up in Los Angeles a
gigantic Magic fan. It wasn't a Laker fan. It was
a Magic and I was the coach's son. I was
a pastor spoint guard. And what I learned at what
my college got. I played for coach Eddie Sutton at
Oklhada State, right, and one time he said to me, like,
(18:55):
you're the most selfish, unselfish player in the history of basketball.
And I was like offended by it because he said,
you know, all you want to do is play for assists.
And the truth is that in anyone's normal processing line
of thinking, you're like, how could assist ever be bad?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Right?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
How could creating a shot for a teammate to look
good ever be bad? But the control element of it
and the desire to be the guy who grants your
teammate this incredible opportunity, that's a real thing. And that's magic.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
He famously got, you know, his his first coach fire,
just by the way Larry Bird did as well. Right,
So there's there's there's there's a there's a lot to it.
What when he went to Michigan State, what was that dynamic? Like?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh, it was he did not want to go there,
he was absolutely he did not like Judd heathcode, He
did not like all of his sideline history onics. It
was just a bad fit. Michigan State had fired guskanakas
the coach that Magic really enjoyed as a kid. And
(20:08):
you know, jud Heathcote wasn't aware of magic when he
got to Lansing, but they told him he should get
a background real quickly. But Judd could not stand the
idea of magic passing off the dribble. And of course,
with his no look passes and his revolutionary style of play,
(20:33):
nobody's ever played that way really since, But he was
born to pass off the dribble. Obviously, magic was moving
from high school to the big ten. What was a
beautiful pass in high school could become a Big ten
turnover in a flash. But they engaged in a real
(20:55):
test of wills and jud Heathcote had an extremely strong will,
and so did Magic. And people don't realize Magic walked
out of practice. He was done with Michigan State. But
doctor Charles Tucker called up Magic's father and they got
him back into practice in a few days, and so
(21:19):
his tenure there didn't end that freshman season. But you know,
he eventually bent jud heath Coat to his will, not
not heavily, but enough to get that championship in their
second season.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
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Speaker 2 (21:50):
He ends up in Los Angeles. Right, there's a trade.
Goodrich is traded. He ends up with the Lakers. What
was his first interactions in Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Like, well, you know, he went to one of their
early rookie practices. He had a big moment in the
LA Summer League, which was nothing like Summer League today.
It was a sleepy little affair, but people kicked in
the doors. The Lakers were, as the great columnist Jim
(22:24):
Murray said, they look by the late seventies, they looked
like a group of guys carrying a casket, and it
was really a very miserable situation. And in Kareem Abdul Jabbar,
their great center, Magic finally found a teammate that he
(22:45):
couldn't bend to his will. But he very wisely, at
age nineteen, took a step back and realized he had
to do things differently with Kareem. But one of the
first interactions he had he went in Paul westthead arrived late,
the guy who was going to be the assistant coach,
(23:08):
a fine college coach out of Philly, and they had
the rookies practicing, and Magic Johnson goes dashing across the
floor to throw this huge hug on Paul Westead. And
Paul Westead was not a guy that you know. It was,
I guess you would call it standoffish coaching. You weren't
(23:31):
looking to be best friends with the guys you were coaching.
You weren't trying to be contrary or anything. But that
first hug that Magic threw on west Head was probably
the last because and don't get me wrong, they got
(23:52):
along well enough, well enough to win that championship, and
Magic would have stole Westead's virtues. But of course that
famously turned sour in a hurry, Why turn tut. I
don't think Westead really had a clue about the emotional
(24:16):
side of pro basketball players. But I think the real
issue was that the Lakers were a schizophrenic team. They
had all these guys that wanted to run with Magic.
They had a system that featured two point guards, essentially
(24:38):
Magic and Norm Nixon, and they had the greatest half
court weapon in the history of the game, i e.
A guy who wasn't going to get out and run
with them. And so actually those guys who loved to
run with Magic. Early in his tenure, they printed up
(25:00):
little matchbooks. A lot of the players smoked back then,
and the match books said trade Kareem. And it was
funny after they won the championship in nineteen eighty and
you know, really they got in positioned to win the
championship because Kareem working out of the half court gave
(25:26):
them a three to two lead in games and they
had to go to Philly. As you recall, for Game six,
it was going to be on tape delay because the
NBA's broadcasting numbers were so bad and Korem couldn't play.
He had sprained his ankle in Game five, and suddenly
that opened up everything changed. The matchups really befuddled coach
(25:49):
Billy Cunningham of the Sixers, and Magic won, scoring forty
two points and all these rebounds and assists, and it
led to the image that they were this great running
team that had won. They were not. They were a
(26:10):
team that lived on Kareem's ability to force every other
team to scheme to stop him. And Paul West had
did what every coach in America would do. He came
in the next season, and he came in two seasons
(26:34):
later and really began to focus on installing a much
better half court offense, which led to a rebellion led
by Magic of the players. They did not want to
They did not want to engage in any kind of
half court basketball. They wanted to run.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
So what was Magic's relationship with Kareem like?
Speaker 3 (26:58):
At this time, Magic was wisely deferential. Apparently he had
his own set of matches, the matchbook cover that said
trade Kareem. It was a joke. I don't think anyone
really wanted to trade Kareem. But Kareem was a tough guy.
(27:22):
You know. He spent a lot of time with his
back turn to everybody in the locker room, his nose
in a book or the morning paper, and you know,
Magic was his rookie, and Magic had to run errands
for him. All that was fine. Kareem wasn't wasn't tough there.
But you know a lot of the people around Magic,
(27:48):
George Andrews, his lawyer, all these people dealing with him,
really felt that Magic been over backward to accommodate Kareem
and that Kareem never appreciated it. Of course, it wasn't
long before a Jerry Buss secretly gave Magic this twenty
(28:12):
five year, twenty five million dollar contract, and then he
couldn't stand it. He had to tell everybody about it,
and once he did, I mean, that just detonated the
Lakers chemistry. You know, Kareem was so furious he couldn't
even speak because not only did Jerry Buss give Magic
(28:34):
this twenty five year, twenty five million dollar contract, but
he talked about him as a member of the family,
and he had been, I mean, the owner of the Lakers,
a guy Nuda to the NBA just fell in love
with Magic from the first they were up clubbing together,
running around, going to all kinds of sporting events, hanging
(28:59):
out into the wei hours. No other player had that
kind of access. Nobody in the history of the NBA
had had that kind of relationship with an owner and
then suddenly it had this contract sprung on them. And
Kareem told me once, he said, I just don't think
Jerry Buss could handle my personal integrity. And you know,
(29:23):
Kareem really didn't like Bus had all the celebrities with
him at games up in his owners section of the building,
and he had all these pregame dinners at the Forum.
He turned the Forum Club, He created the Forum Club
and turned it into this party scene and magic was
(29:49):
you know, as Ron Carter who played for the Lakers
and then worked for Jerry Buss for quite a while
in his real estate operations. The Lakers were basically, in
many ways a honeypot for Jerry Buss to attract investors
and his real estate deals and to bring in all
(30:09):
the celebrities and people. Bus was very hungry for celebrity.
That doesn't make him any different than any other billionaire
or back then millionaire who was wanting to own a
team and get a much higher profile, But the way
he went at it and his infatuation. As Genie Buss
(30:31):
told me for my book, it was like they were
soulmates almost from the very start, and it stayed that way,
and Kareem resented it just immensely. It annoyed him if
Magic and Jerry Buss were to place that none of
the other Lakers could go.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Meanwhile, there's very successful, right like obviously the first championship
and then some dips whatever, but still very very competitive.
What was his What was the dynamic like once they
got rid of west Head, what was the dynamic like
with pat Riley?
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Well, pat Riley, you know, had been the sub on
the Lakers that back up to Jerry west His old
man had been a minor league baseball manager. Pat Riley
understood the emotional side of being a pro athlete in
(31:36):
a way that Paul Westead did not. And it took
a while there. There were all kinds of issues. Basically,
pat Riley still had to solve the schizophrenic nature of
that team. They were gonna They could beat you either way.
They could slow up in a half court and everybody
(31:59):
in the NBA had to really work to stop Kareem,
or they could get out on the break and they
could just go right by you and just create fast
break finishes like never seen before in basketball, and you
just never knew which was going to happen. And so
(32:21):
that was good. But even Riley had to solve that
kind of problem that Paul West had had faced because
and you know, I think probably who was instructive the
most was a guy like Phil Jackson, who came out
with the Knicks with Red Holtzman. When we went to
the Bulls, that was a very easy hierarchy. It was
(32:45):
Michael Jordan on that team and everybody else. And Jordan
drove the bus literally when he got to the Lakers boom.
Here he had Kobe and he had Shaq, and Kobe
was thinking, oh, here comes Phil with the triangle. This
is going to be my big break. And Phil was
just really cold with Kobe to the point the texts Winner,
(33:06):
his assistant coach had to intervene and tell Phil, you
can't treat Kobe this way. But every coach in America
with a shack on the roster is going to do
what It's going to establish a shack hierarchy first, and
a flashy young guard. That's just not how you build things.
(33:28):
That's not your priority, and so pat Riley understood that
he had to He had two people he had to
feed there. But he figured out ways to do it
and it really helped that Magic had everybody in America
booing him after he fired Paul Westead and Magic essentially
(33:52):
fired his own championship coach, and Riley was aware that
Magic was in a position where he had to deliver.
The only way out of that was to win. If
they had not won, Magic would never have gained the
(34:18):
momentum he did that nineteen eighty two NBA Finals victory
over Philadelphia, and the way they finished it, the strong
manner that set the table. It didn't guarantee them immediate success,
but it really shut up all the booing, and the
(34:40):
booing went on and on and just about every NBA
arena through the rest of that eighty one eighty two season.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
How that, how's that affect him?
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Well, you know, it's hard to say. You know, his
coaches from Lansing and all the people in the communit
were very close to him. And after he fired his coach,
they knew Magic was really down, and they all loaded
up and went down to Chicago to see him for
(35:11):
a game. And yeah, typical. Magic had a dinner plan
for him afterwards. He basically had place cards at all
the seats. He was the ultimate control freak. He knew
where he wanted all the coaches and various people seated.
He had rooms for him in the Lakers Hotel, so
they had a wonderful dinner. Magic had been booed heavily
(35:32):
in Chicago that night and they were worried about him.
But they got back to the hotel and the place
was like a hooker's convention. It was absolutely packed with women.
And I'm not just talking the lobby. They were parraling
all through the hallways and stuff. And his coaches looked
(35:56):
at him and said, Irvin, who are all these women?
Are these women all prostitutes? And Magic said, no, some
of them are prostitutes, but a lot of them are
just women, business women, whatnot who want to be intimate
with an NBA player, specifically a Laker. And years later,
(36:17):
when you know he was, he announced the world that
he was HIV positive. All those coaches thought back to
that night, and George Fox, his high school coach, always
used to say, oh, Magic took too many field trips
with Jerry Buss. Yeah, yeah, they believed all that booing
(36:39):
sort of hasten Magic into the arms of that adoring crowd.
I don't think so. I think Magic was already well
ensconced into the arms of that adoring crowd. Sounds about right.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
The book takes us into the dynamics of the rivalry
with Larry Bird. How real was that?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Oh? You know, Bird was an asshole and Magic was
this nice guy. But Bird was not a friendly competitor,
you know. Dominique Wilkins tells the story. Bird wouldn't even
shake his hand. You know, Birt was Bird was on
a mission of his own, in his own style, in
(37:24):
his own way. You know. Larry and Magic had Billy
Packer and some entrepreneurs had put together an international touring
team in nineteen seventy eight to come play basketball in
America international pros from Europe and South America. And they
(37:51):
got job Hall at Kentucky who had just won the championship,
and his starting five, and they included Larry and Magic
on that team, and they would add other players. They
played three games in three venues and there was a
lot of garbage time in those games. And Joby Hall,
(38:12):
the two guys who would revolutionize basketball hardly got off
the bench. And you know, again it's a coach with
his starting five NCAA champions. He wasn't much interested in
Magic or in Bird, And as Billy Packer said, you know,
Bird just seemed to be pouting the whole time. But
(38:34):
when they would get on the floor, they just couldn't help.
But with the way they played, with that open court look,
with the way they rebounded, and of course the rebounding
for Magic and Bird both was such a part of
the way they controlled things, especially as they rose through
(38:56):
college basketball on into the NBA. In fact, you asked
about that first season in la as Paul West had explained,
Magic wasn't really trying to be a point guard. His
solution to the Kareem thing and all the other issues
with the Lakers was to rebound. And he really obviously
(39:22):
has always had, always had great ability to rebound, just
that knack, and whether it was offensive rebounding to produce
another shot or really driving the fast break with his
defensive rebound, it was the kind of thing he could
(39:42):
retreat to without getting in the way of one guy
or another. And that really was the foundation with which
he built his identity.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Was showtime, the HIV and the early retirement.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
What was that like to research?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Well, I was there for a lot of it, and
so I saw it. You know. Lon Rosen helped me
tremendously with this, as did George Andrews, who had been
Magic's lawyer for the first seven or eight years of
his career. He was there for everything. Doctor Charles Tucker
(40:23):
helped me tremendously. He was Magic's advisor from junior high
on as a school psychologist and then became his professional advisor.
Was also an advisor for Isaiah Thomas and Mark Aguire
and Herb Williams, all these different figures that were sort
of you know, Magic and Isaiah and those guys were
(40:45):
sort of sort of a brat pack for the NBA
or what was called the rat pack in Hollywood. They
sort of had their own thing going, and Charles Tucker
was their guy, and so I had the view of
the guys as they watched Magic go through this experience.
(41:06):
By the time he got to HIV, Lon Rosen was
his advisor, but he really had to come clean on
a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
It was they looked at every way possible and just
sort of slinking away and not having to reveal. And
Magic hated the idea people would think he was gay
because in America HIV was a gay thing, either that
or a blood transfusion. But he finally, you know, just
(41:38):
stood up there and said it. As chick hern would say,
I had no idea how he could get up in
front of the world and say those things. And it
was a very somber thing. It cost him tremendously. It
has cost him as a public figure, and I think
(41:59):
one of the amazing things is how he recovered from it. Obviously,
the All Star Game in nineteen ninety two in Orlando
was an amazing event. The Dream Team was a great thing.
But really the underreported chapter is the Magic Johnson All Stars.
(42:20):
He made twenty first century money. There was such a
hunger after the ninety two Dream Team for American basketball globally,
and he got all these retired guys, flew him around
in lear jets. He had all these games. He raked
in the cash and really popularized in ways that just
(42:44):
weren't reported here. It wasn't a big deal in America
that Magic's touring with his All Stars, but in Europe,
on every continent except Antarctica, and hell, they may have
played a game or two an Antarctica, I don't know,
but they played everywhere and there was no concern about HIV.
And it was right at this time that he and
(43:09):
his business manager, these two black guys, got a hold
of Peter gouber At, who is head of Sony USA,
and pitched the Magic Johnson Theaters as this great big thing,
and of course it was. And Sony first funded him
and then bought them out right from Magic. And that
was his first big score of a business deal.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
And that guy is I mean he has uh, he
has more businesses going today's insurance companies, banks or find
lending institutions, contracting companies. He's he's a busy, busy guy.
And he this again is the organic Magic. He obsessed
(43:59):
about being a businessman like this since he was a kid,
a teenager, cleaning the offices of this very successful black
businessman in Lansing, Michigan. Magic used to prop his feet
up on the desk at night when he was cleaning
the offices, up in the executive suite and just dream
(44:21):
of being this guy. And you know it's not easy.
He is that guy.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Last thing, when I closed this book, what do you
believe my image of Magic Johnson's going to.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Be pretty damn cool. And I'm not selling that, but
I just think, you know, Kobe destroyed his life, he
destroyed his career, and he had to rebuild it, and
that required that iron will that these great competitors have.
(45:04):
They it's just a different thing. It's a different level
thing in each of these guys. And Magic pretty much
with the HIV thing really just deep sixth everything he
had built up as an NBA uh star and champion.
I mean, it just made him. I hear it now
(45:26):
people ask me, why the hell are you writing a
book about that guy? But he had, he is possessed
of that insanely iron will, and he has used every
bit of it. And it's you know, it hasn't been.
Everything he's done is writ He had an abysmal talk
(45:47):
show period and and you know, he had a strange
situation with the Lakers. He got latuh he you know,
he got Lebron there and then he resigned in a
snit that seemed really childish. But he just has managed
(46:08):
to take the circumstances that would have wrecked anybody else
and he has rum victory out of it in a
very big way.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time.
I am really really looking forward to this book. And
I don't speak Portuguese, but eventually it'll come out in Portuguese,
like the Michael Jordan book has.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
It's already in eight languages, just Greek. I don't speak
a word of any of these languages, but I do
enjoy watching people all over the globe lock in on
basketball because you know, magic is magical. Basketball is magical,
All of this stuff is. It's important in a very
(46:55):
different way.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Thanks for your time and enjoying me. I truly appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Great to see you again.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
To reminder of The Doug Gottlieb Show airs daily daily
three to five Eastern twelve to two Pacific plus, we
have the Bonus Our podcast. Just type in Doug Gottlieb
Show you can download it. Bonus Our is a little
bit more un koof. We don't have any FCC regulations.
We can just have a lot of fun with it.
It's called the Doug Gottlieb Show. Download wherever you download
podcast like this one. In the meantime, I thanks for
(47:26):
Rowland for joining me. I'm Doug Gottlieb, This is all ball.
Hey, want to walk a bit. I'm Doug Gottlieb.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is All Ball. Roland Lazarie's my guest. He's written
a new book about Magic Johnson. Magic Johnson. I'm excited
because you know, I grew up in southern California. My
family moved there in nineteen eighty one and was basically
around for the entire Yeah, we were off for the
(00:30):
whole Showtime era, and it concluded really with Magic Johnson's
announcement that he contracted HIV, which kind of brings me
to how I get into this, this version of All Ball.
And when you think of the places you're what you
were when things happened, where were you in Magic announced
he at HIV? It was about this time of year surely.
(00:53):
Actually before the season began, I was at Tustin High School.
And the way it works in southern California in high
school basketball is until you have till practices start, you
have sixth period. Your final period of the day is
your pe is your basketball class. So it becomes like
at the facto practice, but it's just not considered practice
(01:14):
time and you only have the time of whatever your
class schedule is. Right, And I'll never forget that we
had a team meeting on the court and my coaches
before my freshman year.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
My coach was a man named Tom McCluskey.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Tommy was the head coach the year before when they
won the state championship. He played for Dick Hard at
Penn State. It's a big dude, about six seven six eight.
Incredible coach and also really about the kind of life.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Lessons you learn in sports.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And I mean, I justticularly remember it to this day
that he called us all in to sit on the
court and he said, boys, in about a half hour,
there's going to be a press conference with the Lakers.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Magic Johnson is going to retire.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And we were just like all stunned because you remember,
this is Magic Johnson and though he wasn't at his peak.
They had just come off the NBA Finals, but they
got beat four games to one by the Chicago Bulls.
So this is really and and back then in the NBA,
you know, outside of the Olympics, the next the following summer,
(02:25):
you didn't really hear from NBA players in the offseason,
and the Bulls won. It was Michael Jordan's first championship.
It became about Jordan it became about him taking over
the league. And it wasn't that you didn't think about
Magic Johnson. But you weren't really thinking about Magic Johnson.
It's not like the daily drama you have these days,
when lots of reagent player movement, guys forcing trades. All
(02:49):
that didn't simply didn't exist. Yeah, the NBA Draft and
then I don't know you'd see them in the in
the preseason. That was basically it. So Magic Johnson's going
to retire. Those words kind of hung for a couple
of seconds, but he's going to retire because he's contracted
something called HIV. And then I remember him saying which
(03:12):
eventually leads to eights, which means he's going to die.
It's from unprotected sex. And you know, this is a
real thing. You need to discuss with your parents what
all these things mean. But you know, just know, I
know a lot of you guys love watching Magic play.
(03:33):
I love watching Magic play. He's not gonna play basketball anymore,
and you know, it's it's really really sad, and this
disease is really really scary, and you guys have to
understand the world and which you live in, how to
protect yourself from so you guys want to take five
minutes and catch your breath. Anyway, there's guys crying. I
(03:56):
remember our best player was a senior named Gentry More
signed the letter of intend to go to TCU, and
Gentry was he was a mess. And then we practiced
for a little bit, and then we went into his
office and watched the press conference and then wiped away tears,
practiced some more.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So was a really kind of emotional day. But I'll
contend with you this.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And I'll put out another pod here in the next
day or two and I'll kind of run down all
the different basketball stuff because the Lakers just beat the Suns,
and there's some really good stuff going on with the Lakers,
despite the fact that they had lost every road game.
The Sun's still not healthy. The Clippers complete mess since
(04:36):
the hard and trade. Uh Luca put on a performance
for the Ages twenty one shots and he had what
forty six points or something.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's just great. It's just crazy that guy can do.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
And then of course you got college basketball where Arizona
beats Duke at Duke.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
More of those games plays.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Baylor looked amazing in their comeback win against Auburn, but
as we roll into basketball season and with Lebron James
continuing to play and star and be a you know,
probably a top twenty, top fifteen maybe player in the
NBA at thirty nine years old. Lost in the greatest
(05:16):
of all time debates somehow is Maggie Johnson.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I granted, he didn't play as long as Lebron, and
he didn't play as long as as Michael Jordan, but
all the NBA titles, the MVPs, he changed, the sport,
changed the position. He's I believe, considered a billionaire. He's
(05:41):
like what Lebron would have been like had Lebron come
out in that era. That makes sense and when you
run in Dominata.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
League as well as well. First you say he built
up college basketball. Remember the most watched college basketball National
Championship game of all time as Bird versus Magic.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
That allowed the sport to kind of breakout.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So I don't know if he saved or fixed or
started March Madness, but he deserves credit, so does Larry Bird,
and by most accounts, he saved the NBA along with
Larry Bird. The dynamic of white versus Black, East versus West,
you know, slow and steady versus playing fast, all these
different all these different things at play for a time.
(06:24):
And remember this is during the Magic Bird and then
Michael Era, the NBA was actually king how how we
view football in terms of dominating sports on TV was
how we viewed the NBA back then. Obviously, the advent
of fantasy football, proliferation of gambling, honestly, probably the proliferation
(06:47):
of basketball on TV we get maybe too much now
has watered down the product, water down the ratings, and
football has caught passed, even boat raced the NBA. But
to give true context to how big Magic was is
to tell you that when he announced his retirement due
(07:08):
to HIV, he was the significant superstar in the world
that brought it to the forefront. Because previous to Magic.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
HIV was seen as a gay an's disease.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
It wasn't anything that people discussed at length in high schools.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Just wasn't.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And in my lifetime, the poignant moments that made me
really think and understand adult things len Bias dying after
using cocaine, I would say, obviously Magic Johnson and then
probably Jason Williams with the gun stuff at his house
(07:47):
in New Jersey. There's been some you know, maybe plexico
bursts in terms of guns can go off and how
the legal guns are and all the different elements to it.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
But Magic the player. He is one that you can't
really describe.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
The presence that he had because now I think if
you're you know, if you're thirty five or younger, you
see some of the passes and he thought like, well
that was it, Like he was a fancy passer on
the fast break. Nah. He had this mix of pinache presence.
He hid big shots, and he did it all despite
the fact that while he was big and way bigger
(08:28):
than anyone who had played his position previously, he wasn't
crazy athletics, but he always got to where he needed
to get to. Maybe though he had a weird kind
of push shot and began as a non shooter.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
By the end of his career, he is a very
good shoot.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
He always seemed to be able to get things done
in spite of whatever his weaknesses.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But more than anything, he had a presence. You know.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
A couple of years later later he was going to
come back with the Lakers. And when he came back
with the Lakers, he was playing in their preseason. I
remember we went to the before it was the it
was the Fabulous Forum. That was a great Midwest Forum.
We went to the Forum to see this. It was
a preseason doubleheader. It's called like the Great Midwest Shootout.
And I think it was like the Kings, the Clippers,
(09:16):
the Warriors.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And the Lakers. And then don't hold me to that.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It may have been one of the other Western teams,
but maybe the Super Sonics instead of the Clippers.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But how I remember it.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Was the Lakers would play the Warriors one night and
play the Kings the next night. It was like a
way of playing preseason games and saving some money.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And putting them all on one build.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
And after the first game, the Lakers came out and
everybody from the Lakers was warming.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Up, and then Magic took the court and it was
it was Magic.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
He just had a way of playing where you couldn't
ever get up and go get popcorn because you thought
you were going to miss something.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
All right, let's get to this podcast. Roll ask me.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
He's an incredible author. I don't need to go through
all his books. Here's my discussion with him in regards
to his new Magic Johnson book. Roland, thanks so much
for taking time with me. What Triger, do you to
write this book?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
You know, it was one I wanted to do earlier.
The publishing industry is also into analytics like everything else,
especially sports, and they weren't sure about the analytics on
this one. I obviously, I did Michael Jordan of Life
for Little Brown, and they preferred Kobe over Magic, and
(10:34):
I was happy because I'd spent a lot of time
with Kobe, and so both of those books been really
successful globally too. But I switched to McMillan and they
were eager to do Magic when I proposed it. And
you know, Magic's one of the great great stories. He
(10:58):
changed so many things about the game.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
He did, and it's really interesting. I'm old enough, and
obviously you're older than me, but I'm old enough to
understand the dynamic of Magic Johnson. He changed college basketball, right,
I mean, college basketball's popularity is directly related to Magic Johnson.
The NBA's popularity is directly related to Magic Johnny. And
(11:26):
it's interesting because up until recently he's kind of done
the aw shucks thing.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
He called Kobe the greatest Laker, which it's just not true.
He's he doesn't insert himself into the greatest player of
all time discussion, which he absolutely should be. And I
think it's really smart, right because to those of us
(11:55):
who truly understand the dynamic of human nature, usually it
should be you don't say though things, you let other
people say those things.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
The problem is that time not really on his side, right,
and this generation didn't see him play. How do you
think Magic really feels about his own contributions to the game.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Oh, I think that he feels his style of play,
his approach to the game isn't valued as much anymore.
I think that he's a guy that probably you know,
(12:38):
he's been competing with Michael Jordan for a long time now,
they're still competing furiously. Michael just reached a three billion
dollar level in wealth. Magic cross the billion dollar line.
You know. Magic's had to work furiously to get that billion,
and Michael's works some He's done a lot of smart
(12:58):
things made smart and vestments. But you know, the Nike
deal he got was the game changer there, and so
Magic is still hungry. He has things to prove. He
has learned that you can't prove them all by saying
(13:20):
things about yourself, you know, but he is at that
level where he's willing to remind people.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Now he started recently. It's a recent trend which I
really actually really like because I know it to be true. Right,
So you decide to write this, the analytics said, Kobe,
you finally get the green light. What's the process like
of compiling all these interviews and talking to people and
putting this together?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Well, you know it's Pete Noule told me years ago.
I did a Jerry West biography for ESPN Books in
two thy and ten, and years before Newell had told
me that if I wanted to understand Jerry West, I
really had to understand West Virginia. And Pete Noule got
(14:12):
my attention. You know, I went really deep into the
Jerry West background and discovered an amazing story there. I
did the same, attempted to do the same with Michael
Michael Jordan books now in twenty one languages. It just
came out in Portuguese and he is a global, global guy,
(14:35):
and Kobe twelve languages. You know, American basketball couldn't get
anybody's attention for decades, and here comes magic, here comes Larry.
You know, the ratings in the NBA have just fallen
twenty five percent in one year for regular season TV games,
(14:58):
and those guys, you know, it wasn't some grand introduction.
The teams were losing money, but they the way they
played was something different and it got everybody's attention. And
suddenly here comes David Stern. He's thinking big, no more
that small, thinking of the past. And then the Dream Team,
(15:23):
then the Magic Johnson all stars all over the place,
and American basketball is ridiculous in its global reach.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Now you said, the most important thing we're writing the
Jerry Westbrook is get to know West Virginia. So when
you're writing on Magic Johnson, what do you have to
get to know to know Magic Johnson.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Well, it's a perfect comparison because Michael Jordan's mother, who
came off the coastal plain of North Carolina out of
that abysmal sharecropping culture that had trapped so many fans
families black and white. Well, Michael's mother and Magic's mother,
(16:07):
she too came out of that sharecropping culture. And these
are two women who in their own ways are really determined.
And so I had to get to understand North Carolina
really well. I thought I had with my Michael Jordan book,
but I was really able to get a lot of
(16:29):
much deeper background. And you know, Magic was such a
big thing in Michael's life, and so the parallel between
those two sort of continued from looking at that background
looking at their families. In a sense, Michael Jordan was
(16:54):
very obscure as a teenager. Magic Johnson, on the other hand,
in different ways, was man. He was He had a
lot of power at age fifteen, an amazing amount of power,
and he was by then his family. Of course, he
was born in Lansing, Michigan. He happened along right as
(17:20):
they were doing all of the bussing for racial integration,
and he ended up right smack dab in the middle
of that. But the main thing about in regards to basketball,
the main thing that I try to do is to
sort of find the organic player Kobe. I wanted to
(17:42):
find the organic Kobe because there were a lot of
misconceptions about him. Michael's organic nature was pretty much on display.
But Magic, you know, he's got the big smile, he's
passing out assists. But that dude was a control free
from an early age. His high school teammate, who became
(18:05):
his best man, Dale Beard, told me, he said, you
know I couldn't play my game with Magic. I had
to play the way he wanted me to play, or
I wasn't going to play. And Magic didn't just control
his teammates, he controlled his coaches. And that is that
(18:29):
is a determined teenager to accomplish that.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's fascinating because I grew up in Los Angeles a
gigantic Magic fan. It wasn't a Laker fan. It was
a Magic and I was the coach's son. I was
a pastor spoint guard. And what I learned at what
my college got. I played for coach Eddie Sutton at
Oklhada State, right, and one time he said to me, like,
(18:55):
you're the most selfish, unselfish player in the history of basketball.
And I was like offended by it because he said,
you know, all you want to do is play for assists.
And the truth is that in anyone's normal processing line
of thinking, you're like, how could assist ever be bad?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Right?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
How could creating a shot for a teammate to look
good ever be bad? But the control element of it
and the desire to be the guy who grants your
teammate this incredible opportunity, that's a real thing. And that's magic.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
He famously got, you know, his his first coach fire,
just by the way Larry Bird did as well. Right,
So there's there's there's there's a there's a lot to it.
What when he went to Michigan State, what was that dynamic? Like?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh, it was he did not want to go there,
he was absolutely he did not like Judd heathcode, He
did not like all of his sideline history onics. It
was just a bad fit. Michigan State had fired guskanakas
the coach that Magic really enjoyed as a kid. And
(20:08):
you know, jud Heathcote wasn't aware of magic when he
got to Lansing, but they told him he should get
a background real quickly. But Judd could not stand the
idea of magic passing off the dribble. And of course,
with his no look passes and his revolutionary style of play,
(20:33):
nobody's ever played that way really since, But he was
born to pass off the dribble. Obviously, magic was moving
from high school to the big ten. What was a
beautiful pass in high school could become a Big ten
turnover in a flash. But they engaged in a real
(20:55):
test of wills and jud Heathcote had an extremely strong will,
and so did Magic. And people don't realize Magic walked
out of practice. He was done with Michigan State. But
doctor Charles Tucker called up Magic's father and they got
him back into practice in a few days, and so
(21:19):
his tenure there didn't end that freshman season. But you know,
he eventually bent jud heath Coat to his will, not
not heavily, but enough to get that championship in their
second season.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
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Speaker 2 (21:50):
He ends up in Los Angeles. Right, there's a trade.
Goodrich is traded. He ends up with the Lakers. What
was his first interactions in Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Like, well, you know, he went to one of their
early rookie practices. He had a big moment in the
LA Summer League, which was nothing like Summer League today.
It was a sleepy little affair, but people kicked in
the doors. The Lakers were, as the great columnist Jim
(22:24):
Murray said, they look by the late seventies, they looked
like a group of guys carrying a casket, and it
was really a very miserable situation. And in Kareem Abdul Jabbar,
their great center, Magic finally found a teammate that he
(22:45):
couldn't bend to his will. But he very wisely, at
age nineteen, took a step back and realized he had
to do things differently with Kareem. But one of the
first interactions he had he went in Paul westthead arrived late,
the guy who was going to be the assistant coach,
(23:08):
a fine college coach out of Philly, and they had
the rookies practicing, and Magic Johnson goes dashing across the
floor to throw this huge hug on Paul Westead. And
Paul Westead was not a guy that you know. It was,
I guess you would call it standoffish coaching. You weren't
(23:31):
looking to be best friends with the guys you were coaching.
You weren't trying to be contrary or anything. But that
first hug that Magic threw on west Head was probably
the last because and don't get me wrong, they got
(23:52):
along well enough, well enough to win that championship, and
Magic would have stole Westead's virtues. But of course that
famously turned sour in a hurry, Why turn tut. I
don't think Westead really had a clue about the emotional
(24:16):
side of pro basketball players. But I think the real
issue was that the Lakers were a schizophrenic team. They
had all these guys that wanted to run with Magic.
They had a system that featured two point guards, essentially
(24:38):
Magic and Norm Nixon, and they had the greatest half
court weapon in the history of the game, i e.
A guy who wasn't going to get out and run
with them. And so actually those guys who loved to
run with Magic. Early in his tenure, they printed up
(25:00):
little matchbooks. A lot of the players smoked back then,
and the match books said trade Kareem. And it was
funny after they won the championship in nineteen eighty and
you know, really they got in positioned to win the
championship because Kareem working out of the half court gave
(25:26):
them a three to two lead in games and they
had to go to Philly. As you recall, for Game six,
it was going to be on tape delay because the
NBA's broadcasting numbers were so bad and Korem couldn't play.
He had sprained his ankle in Game five, and suddenly
that opened up everything changed. The matchups really befuddled coach
(25:49):
Billy Cunningham of the Sixers, and Magic won, scoring forty
two points and all these rebounds and assists, and it
led to the image that they were this great running
team that had won. They were not. They were a
(26:10):
team that lived on Kareem's ability to force every other
team to scheme to stop him. And Paul West had
did what every coach in America would do. He came
in the next season, and he came in two seasons
(26:34):
later and really began to focus on installing a much
better half court offense, which led to a rebellion led
by Magic of the players. They did not want to
They did not want to engage in any kind of
half court basketball. They wanted to run.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
So what was Magic's relationship with Kareem like?
Speaker 3 (26:58):
At this time, Magic was wisely deferential. Apparently he had
his own set of matches, the matchbook cover that said
trade Kareem. It was a joke. I don't think anyone
really wanted to trade Kareem. But Kareem was a tough guy.
(27:22):
You know. He spent a lot of time with his
back turn to everybody in the locker room, his nose
in a book or the morning paper, and you know,
Magic was his rookie, and Magic had to run errands
for him. All that was fine. Kareem wasn't wasn't tough there.
But you know a lot of the people around Magic,
(27:48):
George Andrews, his lawyer, all these people dealing with him,
really felt that Magic been over backward to accommodate Kareem
and that Kareem never appreciated it. Of course, it wasn't
long before a Jerry Buss secretly gave Magic this twenty
(28:12):
five year, twenty five million dollar contract, and then he
couldn't stand it. He had to tell everybody about it,
and once he did, I mean, that just detonated the
Lakers chemistry. You know, Kareem was so furious he couldn't
even speak because not only did Jerry Buss give Magic
(28:34):
this twenty five year, twenty five million dollar contract, but
he talked about him as a member of the family,
and he had been, I mean, the owner of the Lakers,
a guy Nuda to the NBA just fell in love
with Magic from the first they were up clubbing together,
running around, going to all kinds of sporting events, hanging
(28:59):
out into the wei hours. No other player had that
kind of access. Nobody in the history of the NBA
had had that kind of relationship with an owner and
then suddenly it had this contract sprung on them. And
Kareem told me once, he said, I just don't think
Jerry Buss could handle my personal integrity. And you know,
(29:23):
Kareem really didn't like Bus had all the celebrities with
him at games up in his owners section of the building,
and he had all these pregame dinners at the Forum.
He turned the Forum Club, He created the Forum Club
and turned it into this party scene and magic was
(29:49):
you know, as Ron Carter who played for the Lakers
and then worked for Jerry Buss for quite a while
in his real estate operations. The Lakers were basically, in
many ways a honeypot for Jerry Buss to attract investors
and his real estate deals and to bring in all
(30:09):
the celebrities and people. Bus was very hungry for celebrity.
That doesn't make him any different than any other billionaire
or back then millionaire who was wanting to own a
team and get a much higher profile, But the way
he went at it and his infatuation. As Genie Buss
(30:31):
told me for my book, it was like they were
soulmates almost from the very start, and it stayed that way,
and Kareem resented it just immensely. It annoyed him if
Magic and Jerry Buss were to place that none of
the other Lakers could go.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Meanwhile, there's very successful, right like obviously the first championship
and then some dips whatever, but still very very competitive.
What was his What was the dynamic like once they
got rid of west Head, what was the dynamic like
with pat Riley?
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Well, pat Riley, you know, had been the sub on
the Lakers that back up to Jerry west His old
man had been a minor league baseball manager. Pat Riley
understood the emotional side of being a pro athlete in
(31:36):
a way that Paul Westead did not. And it took
a while there. There were all kinds of issues. Basically,
pat Riley still had to solve the schizophrenic nature of
that team. They were gonna They could beat you either way.
They could slow up in a half court and everybody
(31:59):
in the NBA had to really work to stop Kareem,
or they could get out on the break and they
could just go right by you and just create fast
break finishes like never seen before in basketball, and you
just never knew which was going to happen. And so
(32:21):
that was good. But even Riley had to solve that
kind of problem that Paul West had had faced because
and you know, I think probably who was instructive the
most was a guy like Phil Jackson, who came out
with the Knicks with Red Holtzman. When we went to
the Bulls, that was a very easy hierarchy. It was
(32:45):
Michael Jordan on that team and everybody else. And Jordan
drove the bus literally when he got to the Lakers boom.
Here he had Kobe and he had Shaq, and Kobe
was thinking, oh, here comes Phil with the triangle. This
is going to be my big break. And Phil was
just really cold with Kobe to the point the texts Winner,
(33:06):
his assistant coach had to intervene and tell Phil, you
can't treat Kobe this way. But every coach in America
with a shack on the roster is going to do
what It's going to establish a shack hierarchy first, and
a flashy young guard. That's just not how you build things.
(33:28):
That's not your priority, and so pat Riley understood that
he had to He had two people he had to
feed there. But he figured out ways to do it
and it really helped that Magic had everybody in America
booing him after he fired Paul Westead and Magic essentially
(33:52):
fired his own championship coach, and Riley was aware that
Magic was in a position where he had to deliver.
The only way out of that was to win. If
they had not won, Magic would never have gained the
(34:18):
momentum he did that nineteen eighty two NBA Finals victory
over Philadelphia, and the way they finished it, the strong
manner that set the table. It didn't guarantee them immediate success,
but it really shut up all the booing, and the
(34:40):
booing went on and on and just about every NBA
arena through the rest of that eighty one eighty two season.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
How that, how's that affect him?
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Well, you know, it's hard to say. You know, his
coaches from Lansing and all the people in the communit
were very close to him. And after he fired his coach,
they knew Magic was really down, and they all loaded
up and went down to Chicago to see him for
(35:11):
a game. And yeah, typical. Magic had a dinner plan
for him afterwards. He basically had place cards at all
the seats. He was the ultimate control freak. He knew
where he wanted all the coaches and various people seated.
He had rooms for him in the Lakers Hotel, so
they had a wonderful dinner. Magic had been booed heavily
(35:32):
in Chicago that night and they were worried about him.
But they got back to the hotel and the place
was like a hooker's convention. It was absolutely packed with women.
And I'm not just talking the lobby. They were parraling
all through the hallways and stuff. And his coaches looked
(35:56):
at him and said, Irvin, who are all these women?
Are these women all prostitutes? And Magic said, no, some
of them are prostitutes, but a lot of them are
just women, business women, whatnot who want to be intimate
with an NBA player, specifically a Laker. And years later,
(36:17):
when you know he was, he announced the world that
he was HIV positive. All those coaches thought back to
that night, and George Fox, his high school coach, always
used to say, oh, Magic took too many field trips
with Jerry Buss. Yeah, yeah, they believed all that booing
(36:39):
sort of hasten Magic into the arms of that adoring crowd.
I don't think so. I think Magic was already well
ensconced into the arms of that adoring crowd. Sounds about right.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
The book takes us into the dynamics of the rivalry
with Larry Bird. How real was that?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Oh? You know, Bird was an asshole and Magic was
this nice guy. But Bird was not a friendly competitor,
you know. Dominique Wilkins tells the story. Bird wouldn't even
shake his hand. You know, Birt was Bird was on
a mission of his own, in his own style, in
(37:24):
his own way. You know. Larry and Magic had Billy
Packer and some entrepreneurs had put together an international touring
team in nineteen seventy eight to come play basketball in
America international pros from Europe and South America. And they
(37:51):
got job Hall at Kentucky who had just won the championship,
and his starting five, and they included Larry and Magic
on that team, and they would add other players. They
played three games in three venues and there was a
lot of garbage time in those games. And Joby Hall,
(38:12):
the two guys who would revolutionize basketball hardly got off
the bench. And you know, again it's a coach with
his starting five NCAA champions. He wasn't much interested in
Magic or in Bird, And as Billy Packer said, you know,
Bird just seemed to be pouting the whole time. But
(38:34):
when they would get on the floor, they just couldn't help.
But with the way they played, with that open court look,
with the way they rebounded, and of course the rebounding
for Magic and Bird both was such a part of
the way they controlled things, especially as they rose through
(38:56):
college basketball on into the NBA. In fact, you asked
about that first season in la as Paul West had explained,
Magic wasn't really trying to be a point guard. His
solution to the Kareem thing and all the other issues
with the Lakers was to rebound. And he really obviously
(39:22):
has always had, always had great ability to rebound, just
that knack, and whether it was offensive rebounding to produce
another shot or really driving the fast break with his
defensive rebound, it was the kind of thing he could
(39:42):
retreat to without getting in the way of one guy
or another. And that really was the foundation with which
he built his identity.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Was showtime, the HIV and the early retirement.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
What was that like to research?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Well, I was there for a lot of it, and
so I saw it. You know. Lon Rosen helped me
tremendously with this, as did George Andrews, who had been
Magic's lawyer for the first seven or eight years of
his career. He was there for everything. Doctor Charles Tucker
(40:23):
helped me tremendously. He was Magic's advisor from junior high
on as a school psychologist and then became his professional advisor.
Was also an advisor for Isaiah Thomas and Mark Aguire
and Herb Williams, all these different figures that were sort
of you know, Magic and Isaiah and those guys were
(40:45):
sort of sort of a brat pack for the NBA
or what was called the rat pack in Hollywood. They
sort of had their own thing going, and Charles Tucker
was their guy, and so I had the view of
the guys as they watched Magic go through this experience.
(41:06):
By the time he got to HIV, Lon Rosen was
his advisor, but he really had to come clean on
a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
You know.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
It was they looked at every way possible and just
sort of slinking away and not having to reveal. And
Magic hated the idea people would think he was gay
because in America HIV was a gay thing, either that
or a blood transfusion. But he finally, you know, just
(41:38):
stood up there and said it. As chick hern would say,
I had no idea how he could get up in
front of the world and say those things. And it
was a very somber thing. It cost him tremendously. It
has cost him as a public figure, and I think
(41:59):
one of the amazing things is how he recovered from it. Obviously,
the All Star Game in nineteen ninety two in Orlando
was an amazing event. The Dream Team was a great thing.
But really the underreported chapter is the Magic Johnson All Stars.
(42:20):
He made twenty first century money. There was such a
hunger after the ninety two Dream Team for American basketball globally,
and he got all these retired guys, flew him around
in lear jets. He had all these games. He raked
in the cash and really popularized in ways that just
(42:44):
weren't reported here. It wasn't a big deal in America
that Magic's touring with his All Stars, but in Europe,
on every continent except Antarctica, and hell, they may have
played a game or two an Antarctica, I don't know,
but they played everywhere and there was no concern about HIV.
And it was right at this time that he and
(43:09):
his business manager, these two black guys, got a hold
of Peter gouber At, who is head of Sony USA,
and pitched the Magic Johnson Theaters as this great big thing,
and of course it was. And Sony first funded him
and then bought them out right from Magic. And that
was his first big score of a business deal.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
And that guy is I mean he has uh, he
has more businesses going today's insurance companies, banks or find
lending institutions, contracting companies. He's he's a busy, busy guy.
And he this again is the organic Magic. He obsessed
(43:59):
about being a businessman like this since he was a kid,
a teenager, cleaning the offices of this very successful black
businessman in Lansing, Michigan. Magic used to prop his feet
up on the desk at night when he was cleaning
the offices, up in the executive suite and just dream
(44:21):
of being this guy. And you know it's not easy.
He is that guy.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Last thing, when I closed this book, what do you
believe my image of Magic Johnson's going to.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Be pretty damn cool. And I'm not selling that, but
I just think, you know, Kobe destroyed his life, he
destroyed his career, and he had to rebuild it, and
that required that iron will that these great competitors have.
(45:04):
They it's just a different thing. It's a different level
thing in each of these guys. And Magic pretty much
with the HIV thing really just deep sixth everything he
had built up as an NBA uh star and champion.
I mean, it just made him. I hear it now
(45:26):
people ask me, why the hell are you writing a
book about that guy? But he had, he is possessed
of that insanely iron will, and he has used every
bit of it. And it's you know, it hasn't been.
Everything he's done is writ He had an abysmal talk
(45:47):
show period and and you know, he had a strange
situation with the Lakers. He got latuh he you know,
he got Lebron there and then he resigned in a
snit that seemed really childish. But he just has managed
(46:08):
to take the circumstances that would have wrecked anybody else
and he has rum victory out of it in a
very big way.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time.
I am really really looking forward to this book. And
I don't speak Portuguese, but eventually it'll come out in Portuguese,
like the Michael Jordan book has.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
It's already in eight languages, just Greek. I don't speak
a word of any of these languages, but I do
enjoy watching people all over the globe lock in on
basketball because you know, magic is magical. Basketball is magical,
All of this stuff is. It's important in a very
(46:55):
different way.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Thanks for your time and enjoying me. I truly appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Great to see you again.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
To reminder of The Doug Gottlieb Show airs daily daily
three to five Eastern twelve to two Pacific plus, we
have the Bonus Our podcast. Just type in Doug Gottlieb
Show you can download it. Bonus Our is a little
bit more un koof. We don't have any FCC regulations.
We can just have a lot of fun with it.
It's called the Doug Gottlieb Show. Download wherever you download
podcast like this one. In the meantime, I thanks for
(47:26):
Rowland for joining me. I'm Doug Gottlieb, This is all ball.
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