First, Doug gives his take on UConn’s convincing national championship game win over Purdue, how Dan Hurley has built a back-to-back juggernaut while so many coaches are struggling in the transfer portal era, and if Hurley can turn over his roster again after most key players from this year’s team move on.
Then, he’s joined by NBA and NIL Agent Daniel Poneman to discuss how he started a highly regarded scouting business as a 14-year-old high school student, how he found a loophole that allowed him to bypass the normal requirements to become an NBA Agent, his struggles early on representing NBA players, how his experience made moving into NIL representation was a no-brainer, his tactics for determining player NIL value, and his approach to negotiating NIL deals with often stubborn old school coaches.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, want to welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Doug Gotti. This is all ball.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Well, we've kind a national champion. It is Yukon and
they took down Purdue. I'm gonna give you probably five
minutes here on the state of Yukon, the state of Purdue.
Why I think we saw the results that we saw,
and then we'll get to our guest, Dan Paraman, who
is really is the biggest I think nil and agent
(00:35):
in college basketball. He's not the only one, there's other
really good ones, but Dan is He's just a very
interesting guy with amazing backstory. And I think you'll enjoy
our discussion. If you don't, hey, you download the wrong pod.
You guns defending national champions and they go back to
back and it's amazing, and I feel really happy for
(00:59):
Danny and I I think some of the perception and look,
Danny can be a little insufferable at times, but the
best part about him is he knows it. And he
said as much, you know, I can be a bit
of an asshole, like Yeah. The thing that's interesting and
you watch him coach is he coaches guys hard. But
the theatrics on the sideline are not directed towards his
own players. It's more about the officiating and the fans
(01:22):
and is it a little much like yeah, but it
works for them, and you know, Yukon kind of has
that everybody hates us and we don't care Philadelphia Eagles
sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It just kind of works for this.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
My takeaways are that the first thing is they're masterfully
coached at both ends of the floor. That they won
the thing because their defense, not their offense. Yes, the
their offense have great ball and personal movement, yes, but
they won because their defense and the game plan was
exquisite against Purdue. And the execution anybody can say, hey,
we're not leaving shooters, we're not helping the post. Hey,
(01:53):
and then we got a box out because they crashed
like badman. Anybody can say that they actually did it.
There's a commitment to the scout that's amazing. And then
of course offensively, they're beautifully coached, they play and they
have good players. But I would say two things were
at play there. One, they had better players than Purdue.
And we can sit here and go like, well, they
(02:14):
haven't played the portal game, but they don't win a
national championship unless they go and get you know, spencer,
and you know the mop is a transfer and they
don't get him unless Joe Dooley gets fired, right or
maybe you know, maybe maybe not. I don't know interest
in Newton, but they had four pros in their starting
(02:35):
a linele like Caravan's good. That guy's that's a starting
wing player in the NBA. I think because he can guard,
he can shoot, he's tough, and castle you know your
ability to play a freshman because he just competes and
for the most part knows he's not a great shooter.
Obviously in the Semis, Bama dared and shoot. He hit
those two threes, but then he knows his role. And
(02:57):
then you know, Clinging is just an impressive weak side
shot blocker, roll guy.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And you know when they blew the game open.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Both the Semis and the finals were with Clinging on
the bench, and you go in and bring a kind
of a pogo stick rim runner and they can kind
of change the way they play.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
But I think we have to admit that they're massively coached.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
The kids are locked in, the scouts share the basketball,
unbelievable fan support, and a coach that has at least
for that school, he knows how to get the energy
out of everybody in the roster.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
He knows how to get it done.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Now it's going to be a whole new world now
because you probably lose.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Your entire starting lineup.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
We'll see with Caravan, that'd be the only guy I
would think that might come back. But they're going to
have to go out in the portal and they're gonna
have to find guys to fit their culture. And now
it gets now it gets really interesting, right because Clinging
can't stay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
He just can't. Does he have to develop more?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Is shooting? Yes, a little bit postplay, sure, but give
me a lottery.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Picky can't.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Newton can't stay. So that's gonna be interestingly for it.
As for Purdue, you saw them bumping up against the ceiling.
They play hard, they accept their roles. It's really a
work of art. How physical they are, how intense they are,
very similar to Yukon that the level of intensity of
their games is different than the level of intensity of
most bill skins. The thing I'd be disappointed in though,
(04:22):
is the hitting the posts and standing like it wasn't working.
And to not have splits, to not have forty five cuts.
You know, you never use your big you know, on
Spinulu's action or flare screens, you know, there's no split
action when you hit the post, and they just don't
have good enough guys to go create their own shot.
They physically couldn't get up. They took seven and I
think three were blocked. So you got four clean looks
(04:45):
at the basket from three all game long.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
One great defense and locking in a scarraport, but two
that's just a lack of ball and player movement creativity offensively,
let's call like it is, and I get it, you
got away with it for thirty five game games. But
this is a game which they just didn't They were
just out talented and they didn't have an offense or
offensive style that could really help them. So I think
that Purdue, you know, I know they don't want to
(05:11):
sell their souls. You know, they took the only grad
transfer they took was you know, a mid major in
Lance Jones. He's a good player, but again, at that level,
you're going up against guys that are huge. I mean,
Spencer's the only one who's below his the size of
positional size, and because he's twenty four and kind of
a master with playing off two feet. But you can
(05:34):
get away with one guy like that, you can't get
away with multiple guys. And they have despite the fact
that I would get I mean, look, they're going to
keep those two guards that can keep getting better. But
I Fletcher Lawyer. He looked young in that game. He
did not look like he could play in that game.
And though I would Brayden Smith was really good for
the first half and solid for the game.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Obviously you saw against NC State.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Kind of got out of athlete and even in that game,
you know it was because there was no natural health
defense that he was able to get some creases and
make some plays. But the Braden Smith was good enough
to play in that game, but not good enough considering
the overall talent. And now you're going to take Dye
off of that team. And I think Purdue will Bobby Rogressa.
(06:18):
They'll always be good, they always be solid, But that
is unless they can get a little bit more talented wings,
a little bit more athletic dudes. I think that's their ceiling.
All right, Let's get to our conversation with Dan Pondman.
He is an incredible, incredible story. How did it start well?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Now he's arguably the most powerful agent in college basketball.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
How did it start? Take a listen, here's my conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You've become the foremost college basketball agent and nil guy?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
How that happen?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
How that start?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
All?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Well, I guess to tell you how I got to here.
I have to kind of tell you my backstory. So
I'm thirty two years old. I started in this business
when I was fourteen, So.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
I was like, wait, wait, wait, fourteen fourteen.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
So I was born in Evanston, Illinois. And this was
like right before social media started. It was like two
thousand and five. There was a blog called Chicago hoops
dot com. I was a freshman sitting in a computer
lab and I found a website that ranked the top
twenty freshmen in the state of Illinois. And I played.
I wasn't very good. Like I played. I was like,
(07:32):
you know, white kid at the end of the bench
on the good AAU team like I was. I was
good enough to be there, but not get on the court.
And I saw these rankings, and I saw friends that
I played with ranked as freshmen in the state, and
it blew my mind that players my age, that my
friends were being talked about on websites and message boards.
So I was a freshman, I decided to start a website,
(07:55):
illinoishs basketball dot com with the real rankings for high
school players Illinois. So website blew up and I spent
my high school years writing about high school basketball. I
would take the train around the city, my dad would
drive me around. Eventually I got my license and I
just did interviews, player ranking, scouting reports. So this was
pre social media, so colleges couldn't watch film on YouTube.
(08:18):
This is then you have to send a DVD in
the mail if you wanted them to see her film.
So I became like an area scout for a lot
of college coaches. So that's time I was done with
high school. I was working with pretty much every coach
in the country that was recruiting. Chicago utilized me as
their local scout. I didn't go to college. Became a
full time scout after high school, so I was essentially
doing nil, you know, before there was money involved. I
(08:40):
was helping guys pick schools. I was helping doing the
transfer portal before the transfer portal. So I spent a decade,
you know, kind of honing the skill of college player placement,
placing hundreds of guys over a decade from age fourteen
to twenty four. Twenty four, I needed to start making money,
became an agent.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Hold on, hold on, but let's we'll get to that
in a second. Okay, So, and and just it's really
really fascinating me, and I know some of this, but
it's it's interesting because you know, my late father would
he turned helping kids out right. His thing was with
(09:20):
his AU program. He wanted every kid he coached to
play in college, but at whatever love verbly on scholarship,
and he turned that into a kind of placement business
where a lot like you, right, he would try and
find the right fit for the right player at the
right level because he knew everybody in college much like
you did, much like you learn, like because of fifty
(09:42):
sixty years around basketball. And then eventually, you know, somebody
kind of said to him, like, you know, you should
charge people money for this, right, you're putting together all
these highlight tapes and you're calling all these coaches. Why
don't you make some money doing this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And he did.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
He turned into a business. So you're in high school, like,
what did your parents think?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Well, so it was funny, like when it started, it
wasn't supposed to be a business. It was a hobby
that a high school kid was doing, you know, in
my spare time at night, in my bedroom. You know,
I would go to any of U tournaments with a
little those little black and white notebooks, you know, and
I would just interview players, you know, before smartphones really
took off. So I just interviewed players in my notebook,
and it was a hobby. And then once college coaches
(10:20):
started reading my site and calling me, my parents did say,
why don't you charge these coaches? And MY response was
if I charged coaches at the time, I'm sixteen, seventeen
years old, maybe half or a quarter, we'll pay my
pay my fee. But I was like, I'm sixteen years
old and I have Bruce Weber and Mike Krzyzewski calling
me during chemistry class. Why am I limiting who I
(10:43):
can talk to based on who's paying me? What do
I need money for? My website was doing some ad revenue, right,
So I was getting you know, five hundred thousand bucks
a month for a high school kid, that's a million dollars.
That's unlimited money. I could buy beer, I could go
out to eat with my friends. So I told my
parents at the time, I'd rather build relationships. These are
(11:04):
worth more. One day this will come, this will work out,
Like one day, these relationships will pay off.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
What did your parents do for a living?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
My dad trade stocks, My mom's a writer, she's an author.
So I was, like a good middle class family, like
I was. I was, We're doing fine, roof over my head.
They could pay for my AAU tournament fees when I
played my club volleyball fees. I was, I was fine, right,
I didn't need to like support the family. I needed,
you know, pocket money for the weekends, you know. So
(11:32):
you know I did. I ran some camps like It's funny.
At my first event I ran, I was fifteen years old.
I ran an eighth grade All star game for the
best eighth graders in the state and Anthony Davis six
foot tall Anthony Davis was invited to that Ryan Boatwright,
who was committed to USC at the time. So I
ran like little events like that, like charged kids forty
bucks a pop to be in my eighth grade all
(11:53):
star game, Like I had ways to make money. But ultimately,
like I saw way down the road of like if
I build relationship with these college coaches, just will pay
off for me. And like I used to one more
story on how I would kind of was innovative in
helping college coaches. I would go to tournaments like I'd
go like a holiday tournament right where coaches would have
the rosters. You know, the top thirty two teams in
(12:13):
the state. You have the rosters, and I would spend
weeks ahead of time doing scouting reports on every player
in the tournament, but their phone number, their email address,
their parents' number. I would make these comprehensive scouting booklets
and go up to every college coach. The tournament is
given way for free, so coaches would come to try
to figure out who's good, and I'd done all the
homework handed to them. Here, you know everything about every
(12:34):
kid there any in the vision. I didn't know nil
would be a thing. I didn't know the Supreme Court
rule that I could make money doing this. At some point,
I was just helping kids get recruited and helping college
coaches and it was fun. It was like the most
fun hobby in the world. I got these coaches that
I see on TV calling me asking me for advice.
So I almost ended up going to school at Northwestern
is where Taboris Hardy was there with Bill Carmody. I
(12:56):
helped them recruit Drew Crawford, John Sharna, Kyle Rowley, Juice
to like it was the last good Cormedy team. So
I almost went to school there to be a team manager.
By the time, I was just like, I love what
I'm doing. I love scouting, I love working with all
these schools. So I just finished high school online at
seventeen and just went when full time just went at it?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Were you finished? They had high school online back then.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
So I went to the principal my school and basically said,
you are holding me back. I can't be in these
falls every day. I need to hit the road and
start scouting. So they let me do my homework remotely
and finish high school away from the building. So I
left like halfway through my senior year. I never went
back to school.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
So you're twenty four and you said I decided to
be an agent. Does that mean you decided to go
to law school? That what happen? How'd you transition to
becoming an agent?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
No, my highest degree is Evanston Township High School. I
never took the college class in my life. Basically, I
was twenty four, I'd been doing scouting for ten years.
I was and now the little money I was making
wasn't sufficient because I was living in Brooklyn with seven roommates.
Needed to actually make real money. And I had a
lot of guys that i'd come up with, who I
(14:07):
had helped place in college, who I had gone through
the whole thing with, and they're coming, Hey, Dan, I
need help finding an agent. Will you help me get
a job overseas. I had a lot of guys just
that trusted me that were asking me for help. I'd
brought them from freshman year of high school through graduating college,
wanting help in their pro career. I never wanted to
be an agent because I had this image in my
head because I'd met some agents of like kind of slimy, manipulative,
(14:30):
money hungry. It was just like something I didn't want
to be. I wanted to be a good guy, you said,
like with your dad. I loved placing kids in college.
I loved helping people, whether it's a Juco or a
d one. I just loved helping people who needed my help.
And I was like, what do these NBA players need
you for I don't want to be an agent, but
I decided finally, at twenty four, I went to get
certified to be an NBA agent. It was funny. You're
(14:50):
supposed to have a college degree to be an MBA
agent the MVPA, so they say on the application you
have to have a college degree or sufficient negotiate experience,
so make a case for deals. I had negotiated as
to why they should let me be an agent, and
I got certified. So my first client was a kid
(15:12):
named Ben Moore out of SMU. I know Ben Moore,
Ben Moore could player. He had gotten to SMU because
I had been on an AAU tournament five years earlier
with jarens Howard and Larry Brown and pointed out Ben
Moore and they recruited him. And then years later he's graduating.
So that first year I recruited probably twenty guys. Ben
(15:32):
Moore was the only one who said yes, and he
ended up making the Pacers as a two way player,
one of the first two way players. No way, and
now my foot was in the door. I've got a
guy in the league. And that was the start of
my agent career.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
What was that like to have your first conversation with
NBA people where you're like, no, no, no, I'm his agent
and you're literally an unknown.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
So in the college world, I was a known commodity.
I knew every coach in the country. Some liked me,
somewhere annoyed by me, you know, some had guys play
for their teams, and the NBA I was still it
was a completely new universe. But what I found was
when you have a good player, it's easy to make
relationships because.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Who was always call you back when you got a dude.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
They always call you back, and you got to dude.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And I literally like, Dan, this is so funny. Dead
out of sleep yesterday, okay, and I you know what
you do, Like I do this again. I've kind of
started the process of helping kids out just that I
know and all I asked for, Like I just want
to help again, same kind of deal, but find a
kid the right fit because like everything to this is
(16:38):
so much about fit right, and so I it's just
a handful of kids, but they're people that I have
strong relationships with without any sort of the background that
you have. So I happen to text seven coaches about
one kid. We're recording this on Thursday mornings, so this
(17:00):
is Tuesday night. Hey, when you have time, I'd like
to talk about such and such if you're interested. Six
in the morning, West Coast time, my phone rings. It's
an SEC coach. This is six fifteen. It's another catch.
It's like, and they're guys, and they're my they're my friends,
(17:20):
and I truly do like them, and we talk usually
via text, but it's it is usually a bit of
a one sided relationship most of the season, you know,
where I'm reaching out to them, they're like, hey, man,
what's up. Just want to check over with you. But
then you got a dude.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
You got a dude. Yeah, and if you if that
same dude wasn't a dude, they would call you back eventually,
but not a sixth morning. If it was an OK dude,
they call you later in the week. But if it's
a they're going to talk and again. So like to
the story, I've been more who's not like a first
round pick, but he's a Portsmouth guy. He did well
at Portsmouth. He's a good player. So you know, I
(17:56):
remember he got the Wizards brought him in for work out,
the Pacers, the Lakers the Buck. So like I'm building
my MBA relationships because I've got this guy everyone's calling about.
And I remember that first draft, you know, when the
draft starts and they have like little like the little
jingle like you know whatever. I remember like getting chills,
being like, oh my god, I've been watching the draft
(18:18):
since I was I remember being eleven years old at
Jewish overnight camp when the draft was one of my
parents would send me printouts of who got drafted so
I could study it in my cabin. I went the
draft of starting, and I'm a part of it. I
went to Campshy and Lake Delton, Wisconsin and the Dells.
I got kicked out when I was fourteen for sneaking
into girls cabins and that was right around when I
(18:40):
started starting my website. So it worked perfectly. That summers
after that were aau you know. But so then I
remember Ben Moore ended up getting a training camp invite.
After the draft is done, the third round starts, I
second round ends, third round starts. Pacers called me. It
was funny. Actually, there was a controversy that year because
Chris Wallace was the GM of the of the Grizzlies
(19:01):
and he thought that he was getting Ben Moore, and
he goes into a press conference and while he's in
the press conference, we agree to terms with the Pacers.
So Chris Wallace gets out of the press conference, sees
the text, he choos me out. So my first draft,
I got a guy signed, I also got chewed out
by Chris Wallace just just annihilated me. And I was
(19:23):
I remember popping a bottle of champagne because Ben Moore
got a fifty thousand dollars training camp guaranteed with the Pacers,
and I'm like, wow, like I'm in the game, this
is real. I've made it. I'm all my way.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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Speaker 1 (19:49):
So here's here's the here's the interesting thing, right, like
the the the NBA agent of draftics and the fact
that you guys stay together that long, tell me how
accurate this is?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Right?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Everybody's late first or early second, right, and then inevitably
it's kind of like college basketball now where you almost
want to come in second because you don't get drafted
to the level most guys paint up rosier picture than
it really is in order to get the client. The
(20:21):
client signs, goes through, everything ends up not being drafted
or drafted late second round or whatever. Then he fires
the agent, then he comes back to the second agent whatever,
like it's the agent's fault that he where he got drafted.
What's the reality though, of starting out on your own
as opposed to there are guys that have such a
deep client list that the second round becomes favors. Are
(20:42):
there still the percentage? What's the percentage that are still
favors today?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yeah, I would say there are. There are some favors
in the second round for sure, and there are some
favors when there's those back end like the fifteenth spot,
training camp battles. But I think even though I'm not
necessarily getting the favors that are Mark Bartlestein are built
build up. You gets I've been in I'm a lifer
in this business, so I have my own relationships where
sometimes if there's a tie they go with they like
Dan and I'm you know, I'm a good guy and
(21:08):
people want to see me succeed Again. I think I
haven't approached this business in a way where I've burned bridges.
I've been dared people to myself, and I think I've
gotten some favors too. But I think to your other point,
like one thing that I faced is I'm not you know,
starting out, I wasn't recruiting lottery picks. I'm recruiting Portsmouth guys,
third round guys, and a lot of them are getting
(21:29):
to the league. Right. I've been scouting background, so I'm
finding guys who are going to overachieve, and then as
soon as they play their first NBA game, all the
big agents are waiting in the tunnel and they're all
just they're waiting for guys like me to get a
sure guy to the league.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Hey, in baseball. In baseball, there's actually a deal where
guys buy up the agent's deal. Right, if you know
you get then they'll they'll buy them up and then
you continue to get a percentage of the cut. So
it's different in baseball. But that's like all part of
the business.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
That'd be nice, But because I've had some guys like again,
I had weird luck through my first few years because
like my first draft pick, who we've talked about this
guy before. I think he still could come on the
show at some point. Tyrell Terry was my first draft pick.
I'm twenty seven, twenty eight years old. I have this
kid during COVID who gets picked thirty first by the
Dallas Mavericks six million dollar deal, my first draft pick.
(22:22):
So again I'm like, I'm rushing it. I am twenty
eight and I just had the thirty first pick in
the draft. Working for myself. This is I mean, I'm unstoppable.
And then he had you know, he had some personal
issues and he ended up retiring after a year, and
which you know, he and I talked yesterday. We're still
friends to this day. He's graduating from Stanford this year.
He's doing great and he got to keep his money,
which was great too, thanks Mark Cuban. But and in
(22:45):
the next year, I signed a kid named Delano Banton,
who again wasn't in the ESPN one hundred. He was like,
not even expected to be. In the conversation, he's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
So wait wait, So so I first saw then at
Vanton when he started playing for Western Kentucky. And by
the way, just see you aware this is a real story.
This podcast became an idea because of the game I
did at Western Kentucky. No shit, Yes, so I do games.
I've done games for everybody. And I did get So Stadium,
(23:20):
which is an app and they have Ota as well,
so Joe Riley runs their games there and he sent
me a list of games and he's like, hey, any
games you can do, just do them. And there were
two that were back to back days. One was Middle
Tennessee State. The Middle Tennessee State was rolling back then
(23:43):
and I'm trying to think. I can't remember who they played,
but they played him at home in Murphysboro and then
wester Kentucky played the next day in Bowling Green and
it's like a four hour drive, maybe three and a
half hour drive. So I'm like, you know what I'm
gonna Can I do of those games? So like really
like yeah, I mean like because it's not a ton
(24:05):
of money, but I love to go out and see basketball,
and like you get paid to talk about basketball, greatest
shit ever, so I and you know, to me, it's
like everything is about time away from home. Plus I'm
doing a radio show, Like I try to condense as
much travel as I can. So I took a red
eye to Nashville in the morning. So I go and
(24:26):
I do my radio show in Nashville. You get done,
I dried to Murphy's Burrow, I do the game, I
get my car, and I dried to Bowling Green and
then I do my show and the game the next day.
So I'm in between Murphy's Borough and Bowling Green and
it is pouring ring And I have this thing that
I do when I'm on the road, when I quick
(24:49):
when I rent a car, is I try and find
the newest car on the lot. Like a new car
never breaks down, and a new car oftentimes still has
the serious sex have radio. And I'd let my serious
thing expire, right, So I just happened to get literally,
like a brand new car, like seventy miles on, so
(25:09):
you know, you're like smells. It might have been a Spike,
a Malibu. It's not like it's anything, not super nice,
but it's brand new. And I'm listening to Serious Next Time,
and I'm listening to Howard Stern's Turnout, and I hadn't
heard of Howard Stern in a long time. And he
has Megan Trainer on and she's telling the story of
how she made it and that she was the songwriter
(25:31):
and she played everything on her ukulele, and she had
one verse too. I don't think it was all about
that base. I think is I'm gonna love you like
I'm gonna lose you. And she goes in to see
La Reid, and La Reid liked it, but he's like,
I want to hear the whole song, and she didn't
really have the whole song, so she worked out. She
spent like a day in the conference room learning, teaching
(25:55):
herself how to play the whole song, and by the
end of the day she plays it for him. He's like,
let's do let's record it. And then you picked the
artist and he's like, no, no, you're perfect for it.
You record it and anyway, so the whole thing, I'm
i the greatest comment you could ever give somebody when
I did when I do Trestrall radio is hey, I
listened through a break or I didn't. I got to
(26:16):
where I was going and I didn't get out of
my car until that segment that interview was over. And
that's what was me. How about this, I'm driving through
this pouring rainstorm. I get a call and it was
my wife at the time, and she she calls and
she's like, where are you? And I was like, I'm
somewhere in between Mercherys Burro and Bowling Green, Kentucky. And
she's like, I think you're in the middle of like
(26:37):
a tornado watch. So I actually, like I had to
pull over and I was under one of those underpasses
because the weather was so bad in case the tornado
comes through, like you're taught to be under the underpass,
And I sat there for two minutes listening to that,
but I pull had to pull up just so like
to the front of it, because otherwise I couldn't hear
the serious XM because the satellite couldn't go through it.
(26:59):
So anyway, in my mind, I said, yeah, you know,
I just like hearing people's stories, so I wanted I
The next day I was calling. I was talking to
Cowherd and he was launching his old podcast network and
he's like, whatever you want to do, do it, and
I was like, Okay, I want to do a basketball podcast,
(27:21):
but I don't want to make it about like hot
takes about basketball. I just want to tell stories just
because because like my my my childhood was about my
dad sitting around with guys and they're all telling stories.
And when my college teammates me just tell stories like
that's all I want. Anyway, So the next day I
go to West Kentucky and Dona Blanton was the point guard. Right,
(27:41):
didn't shoot much, but like you're like, dude, that guy
is like six seven six ' eight and completely controls
the game. Anyway, That's why I first saw.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I used to I used to have a serious xip
of my car. Used to love to listen to Howard
Stern interviews. They're the best, the best, same thing you
would you sit in the bar and I have to
hear the end of I remember Meghan Trainer. I think
I heard that one too. Troy Carter was a Philly
manager who ended up signing her. I remember this story.
But anyway, Delano Banton, so he was again the next
(28:13):
success slash failure in my story. Was I signed Delano Banton?
He's he was at Nebraska, not on the ESPN one hundred.
I ended up he didn't get invited to the Combine
or the G League Elite camp. He had zero votes
from teams. But my friend shout out to Steve Nef.
He's now a front office agent at clutch, but he
was running the G League at the time and a
(28:34):
player Dicky Jones from Houston got hurt the day before
the combine and I convinced him to let Delano play
as an injury replacement. On the last day he gets
in the combine, he ends up killing. He kills the pro.
Dad ends up getting drafted forty six by the Toronto Raptors,
the most unlikely pick in the draft for two years
two point five million. So again, back to back years,
(28:55):
I have tyrrel than Delano, these unlikely guys getting drafted,
and again I'm on top.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Of the world.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Well, Delano's assistant coach from Western Kentucky ends up leaving
to become an agent, and Delano goes with his coach
who recruited him, which I was like, you know what,
I respect it. You know, I worked three months, I
made a nice commission. You went with your guy. We
have a great relationship. But now here I am back
to back years. Two guys drafted with guaranteed money, zero
clients in the NBA like that stuff the business such
(29:25):
as life, And at this point I'm like almost seriously questioning,
like is the universe telling me that I shouldn't be
doing this, Like I've reached these peaks and I just
keep getting knocked on my ass, Like, God, are you
telling me I'm not supposed to be an agent? Should I, like,
you know, go back to running a nonprofit in Chicago,
just helping kids. Are you telling me to run away
(29:46):
from this? And this is around the time that the
Supreme Court ruled that college players can get paid on
their name, image of likeness. And at the time, I
didn't totally see what it was going to become. It
was like at the time, it's like, oh, you can
get at you know, sponsorships from the local pizza shop,
or you know, if you're Zion Williams and you can
(30:07):
get a Nike deal. But I the first few months,
I didn't totally know what was going to happen. But
it was that first transfer season. I had a guy
who I was helping transfer like I've been doing for
twenty years. This is every year, even when I was
an agent, and you know, doing that full time. Every
year there's a few kids who are transferring, I'm helping
find a new school. It's just I do it because
(30:28):
I love it. It's a skill set that I've honed
over two decades. So I've began transferring and one school
was like, Hey, we've got this thing called the collective
where our boosters have pooled money. We can get this kid,
you know, X amount of dollars guaranteed per month if
he comes to our school, you know. And it clicked
(30:49):
to me like, holy shit, collect anile collected. Everybody's going
to start doing this. So I had this the first year.
I had this one kid who got a nice anile
collective deal when he transferred. And then I spent the
next year talking to every one of my college coaching
friends like, hey, guys, this is where the business is going.
These things called anile collectives are popping up. This is
how it's going to reshape our game. I immediately from
(31:10):
that first deal kind of saw where this was going.
And here we are three years later, and every school
as a collective, some of them have five million dollars,
and I represent more high major players than anybody else
in college basketball. Because I just kind of saw where
this was going, and it was the perfect merger of
the two eras of my life. It's I have eighteen
(31:30):
years of experience placing guys in colleges and knowing how
to find perfect fit and those relationships I honed when
I was in high school that I told my parents
would pay off one day. Well, now every school in
the country has some guy I knew when I was
sixteen and they were a GA and now they're the
head coach, right, and then combining that with my NBA
agent experience, it was just kind of this perfect merger
(31:52):
of worlds for me to assert myself as the guy
in college basketball. And it's worked out pretty well so far.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
So what's the reality to how it works? At what
point in time during this season.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Did you.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Make contact with it like a new client? Like how
does that? How does that come?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
What's the timing of Like how does it actually come
to be?
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah, well, it's an interesting dance, okay, because I try
to do things right. I try to operate in good
faith and like the reality is, yes, there is money
to be made by signing really good players who are
going to transfer right the open market leads to profit.
But I'm also friends with the coaches at the schools
the guys are leaving, right, So it is this delicate
(32:41):
dance of I don't want to be hitting up the
mid major player where I'm friends at the head coach
telling them, hey, dude, you can make this much money
in the portal because I'm friends with the coaches on
both sides. So it puts me in this position where
every step is like this ethical moral the lemma of
how what's the best way to operate, what's what's the
way right? Not of just how do I make money
(33:01):
short term, but how do I do what's right for
all parties involved? So it's different free situation. I had
mid major coaches call me in December of this past
year say, hey, my best player is averaging twenty points
a game and he's definitely moving up a level. Will
will you talk to him? Will you sign him? I
want him to have be in good hands and yeah.
(33:24):
And I had a coach to say, just keep them
focused during the season, like, don't they don't want a
million people reaching out saying I got this deal at
this school, this deal, Hey, you handle it, you sign them,
keep them focused till the seasons done. So my favorite
situation is when the mid major coach knows the guy's
leaving and just says, look, Dan, I want you to
look out for him and maybe find me a replacement
because there's going to be some high major where a
(33:45):
kid didn't get enough playing time that needs to move down.
Maybe you can find me someone to replace the kid.
And I think that's the way it should operate, because
at the end of the day, you're in mid major
school and you have a kid averaging twenty a game
and he's making zero dollars nine times out of ten
hit in the portal, he's going to get paid.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
What about what about kids that are at high majors
are doing well and are being compensated. And then you'll
have you go to do a game and everybody's like, yeah,
you know, he's in he's he's in the portal. You
know what, what does it like to do business that way?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Well, that is one challenging aspect of this business is
like the retention negotiation where it's like, Hey, this guy's
already on your team. He could get this on the
open market, but I don't. But he's happy there. I
want him to stay, so can we work out a
deal to make him happy so he doesn't have to
(34:37):
look elsewhere? And that's always college coaches. High major college
coaches are used to being dictators. They're used to having
full control of their programs for the last you know,
however many years. So for a kid to say this
is what I'm worth to stay is really tough pill
to swallow for high major head coaches. And I've had
at the Final Four this weekend. I had some really
uncomfortable conversations with Mount Rushmore level high major coaches where
(35:03):
but again, my thing isn't like he's going to hit
the portal if you don't give him this. It's look, man,
he's in a good situation. He's happy where he's at.
He could get this in the open market, but he's
not leaving. But just be fair. Let's compensate him fairly
for what he did last season. And some people are
cool with that, and some coaches are easy to do it,
and some it's a nightmare. It's like pulling teeth because
(35:24):
they're used to being dictators and having full control of
their program. So every situation is different. But it's my
job to understand the relationship dynamics, understand the personalities of
each school, of each coach, understand the personality of the players.
Is to be a bridge, right, So a kid's not
marching into the coach's office saying pay me five hundred
grand or I'm out. It's like, no, let me be
a buffer. Let me work both and find a bridge
(35:46):
where everyone's going to be happy. Like, my goal isn't
to rake schools over the coals and make these dudes
pay out the eyeballs. My goal is for everyone to
be happy. Build a bridge where you have a happy player,
happy coach win basketball games.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
One of the things, and I think the head coaches
struggle with is not just the control aspect, it's the
it's the you know, I think I'm worth this and
you're like, dude, and you know, you know it is.
It's it's like liar's poker. You know, no one knows
the reality of it or whatever. And I know it
is your job to have to really be able to
(36:22):
if if said player was available, what would it be
worth to you? Right, That's that's really what you're the
Other part of your role is to give somebody reasonable
But how do you come upon that valuation? I guess
is the is the big question.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Absolutely, And I deal with this all the time, and
I think, again, I can't speak on the top of
all agents, there are some It's funny in the Nile
agent space, there are some people like me who are
MBA agents for a decade and have decided to work
in the college space as well. We know what we're doing.
And then there are people who just graduated college and
call themselves an annile agent and have no clue what they're doing.
So yeah, I'm not going to put all agents in
(36:57):
the bucket same bucket. But for a good agent, this
is our job all year to understand the marketplace, understand values,
understand what a player like this would be worth. And
there's two valuations. There's what is the actual market value
at you know, for most of the schools that are
going to be in the conversation, and then what are
the outliers? Right? Every year there's a few schools with
absurd budgets that are going to throw crazy numbers. I'm
(37:19):
not going to say which ones are that, but there
are a few schools in this market where you're going
to have five offers at three hundred and one at
six because someone's just coming with it. You know who knows.
Arkansas probably the next one in that space. All signs
point to that, right, there's going to be the outloders, right,
and you don't use an outlier number to leverage against
a current coach for retention, because that's not fair. If
(37:40):
I came and said, well, Arkansas is offering this, it's
like yeah, because they have unlimited money, right.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
So it's a desperation there to flip it and be
really good.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Right, and they got to build a roster fast, so
they're gonna be desperate. But it's like my job to
understand what is the actual market rate for this player
based on you know, other players like them, What are
they making, how much the schools want. It's my job
to know. And what's tough is some of these coaches
they're worried about coaching the team all year. They're not
serving the market understanding the movement. When when our price
is peaking, When are you know what's the inventory, what
(38:10):
positions are worth more? They're just guessing. And that's why
schools that have gms, there are certain schools that have
higher gms. I like dealing with them more because I
have a fair sparring partner, someone who actually also all
year is figuring out this information instead of just a
coaches guessing. But also like there is a lot of
misinformation where you know AAU coaches or parents are just saying, hey,
(38:33):
you should hit the portal and get paid, And it's
like guys are entering the portal without knowing what their
actual value is. So I've had guys this year who
are at mid majors who are like, hey, Dan, will
you figure out what my value is before I enter?
And I'll go talk to seven high major coaches, get
a nod of miss evaluations, give it to the kid,
and then they can decide based on real information from
(38:54):
high major coaches. You know, I had a kid this
year who I could assigned, who's at a good mid major.
I got seven evaluations, and every high major coach said,
you're a six through nine rotation player. You can make
you know x amount. And the kid took the information
returned to his mid major to be a star. Now
I could have lied to him and fudge the feedback
so he could have entered, and I could have made
(39:15):
a commission. But the right thing to do is, hey,
all signs point to you being a backround rotation player.
So the kid goes back to school. But I think
there are in other situations that kid might have just seen, Oh,
I have high major interest, I'm going to jump in
the portal and then his career's ruined because he goes
and averages four points a game.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I've seen you tweet some about it. Okay, So how
can both sides get more of what they want with
the contract? And here's I'll give you a couple of
things I've heard. So I let's start by this. I
spent this year as a consultant with at Oklahoma Stake
(39:55):
so and just so everyone's where none of the stories
I'm going to talk about but I are Oklam State stories,
so that would be unfair to Mike to seek granted
me such access. But I do know of the stories
of other schools, not necessarily coming from them, but coming
from from around the country. Is that how people get
to their numbers is really shaky, right, Well, you know
(40:20):
it's X per month, right, That's generally what I've heard
is most of it's how much per month, which is
a lot more like when I played in Europe. That's
really more of what it's kind of like, that's that's
the model, But how they actually get there. They count
pell right, They count Alston money, they count cost of attendance,
and some count the overall value of a vehicle. Even
(40:41):
though you're really only at least in the vehicle. You
don't get to keep the vehicle right, So there's some
kind of fuzzy accounting there in terms of how they
get to the number.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Is that fair that? And how like what are the
percentages that just do the money and what are the
percentage of the ones that do the factor in all
that other stuff.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Well, I think that's part of the importance of a
good agent. And I say good agent because there are
some bad agents out there. The importance of a good
agent is to understand that when you're getting a number
from a school, that could mean a wide variety of things.
And it's my job to hammer in on the details
of how much of this is is an ile compensation,
(41:25):
how much of it is guaranteed, how much of it
is you know, some schools are doing multi year deals
where it's backloaded so that you don't get your money
if you enter the portal the next year, so it's
not really camp for that season, but it's comp for
attention for next year. Right. There are sneaky ways they
can move the money.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Around, which I love, which, by the way, and I
know in your space you probably don't write the object
is to get what you're supposed to get. I like
because I think that that's what's missing in this era,
is the inability to build culture and cohesiveness or whatever,
and the rewards that guys are getting financially. You know,
(42:00):
it's it's like, I mean, tyr El Terry didn't have
to experience it because you only stayed one year at Stanford.
But the ability to go back, the ability to be
part of a college basketball program, like, that's a powerful thing.
But from the agent space, right, you don't like the
backload of ones.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Well, there's upside downside to it, Like and I put
out tweets about this other day about Hey, as an agent,
I'm sometimes open to putting academic requirements in that ile deals,
but you know, behavioral requirements, you know, following team rules.
Sometimes there are retention bonuses or graduation bonuses. I'm fine
with that in some cases. But here's the downside of
the you know, post portal period retention bonus. I have
(42:36):
a kid, let's say, who goes okay Obviously in the
in the situation the kid overachieving that the retention bonus
makes sense. It's like, hey, you played great, we want
to keep you, so you have a bonus if you stay. Now,
what about the case where a kid goes to a
school and it's not what he thought it was and
it doesn't play them a lot, and it's either trying
to run them off, but they're Anil comp was backloaded
(42:59):
to May, so they're able to run them off, and
that he doesn't get the compensation that he earned for
that year. So I'm in some situations like that where
kids are right now, kids are interested in entering the portal,
but they have big April May payments, but they didn't
play a lot where they're at, so the schools running
them off. So what do you do in that situation?
And that's why as an agent, you don't want to
backload that compensation because it gives a school a chance
(43:22):
to screw a kid over who they don't want anymore.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
This thing has evolved over the past couple of years, Right,
what it looks like now? What's your negotiations are now?
Very different? I'm sure even than last year. Definitely different
than two years ago. What's the newest what's the twenty
twenty four what's the newest change to how people are
doing business?
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Well, I'm trying to bring this thing into the future.
You've seen some of my tweets on it. It's like,
my thing is everyone's so busy complaining about the chaos. Well,
let's find opportunity in the chaos. Let's say the NCAA
is not coming down to save us. It's our job
as the stakeholders to figure out how to stabilize this
ecosystem and create forward. So I've proposed to schools this year,
(44:05):
let's do multi year deals with buyouts where hey, if
you're a mid major you're giving a kid a three
year deal for twenty fifty thousand, let's build in one
hundred thousand dollars buyout, or if he breaks the contract,
he has to pay back x amount of dollars. Now,
the reason you're breaking the contract is as you're going
to a biger school where you'reetting paid triple. So essentially
new collective buying out the contract, replenishing the mid major
school from getting pillaged for all their good players. I'm
(44:28):
proposing things like this to schools or to collectives, but
I've seen very few collectives willing to be creative enough
to push this thing into the future. They're still operating.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
What about a noncompete class like in conference noncompete clause.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
It's tough because you can't do it's not pay for place,
so it can't be tied to schools in conference, so
it would be the anile collective. Right, it's a marketing company.
You can do a buyout because you can say, well,
if you signed with another marketing company, then you're breaking
this contract and that a new marketing company has to
pay you back. Well, could you say non competing in conference,
because you couldn't really say.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
I think I think the buyout. I think the buyout
is probably the way to go, the way to protect
from from this. You know what's interesting about you said
the opportunity and I agree, completely agree, and you know
I don't like to pay for play, and and you
said you didn't know where it's going, Like this was
always why I was people like you're against guys getting likes, no,
because you can't control it, because it no longer ceased
(45:26):
to become about nil, right, But I do know, Like
I talked to a coach who older, gentleman, and he's
established and he's got a really good team coming back,
and he's like I kind of like it. He's like
I have like three maybe four starters. I have some
(45:46):
money now and I can go around and pick which
guy I want to add. He's like, if I had
to create a whole new team yearly, I would hate
it wouldn't be for me. But what I have like,
I actually like it. Like all these guys are complain
about it, I'm just laying out of it. So you know,
it's a very It's interesting that people are sure of
coming around to it. I think what they don't like
is they don't like the players marching in and saying
(46:07):
some value. They don't like guys that they think can't play,
you know, holding them over to the coles and knowing
that hey, dude, like you're like two three years away
and nobody likes the in conference like I coach you,
and then you go and shake hands and go play
for their rival. Whitches happen? I mean, Kobe Johnson went
(46:28):
from USC to UCLA, Like, wow, it's a lot. I
think those are the things that the guys generally don't like,
and it's when they don't get to work with people
like you, actually, the ones I talk to. It's like
when you've got some dude from back home who doesn't
know anything, telling them, hey, they're going to get five
hundred grand, and you're like, right, that's a hard thing
to cut through though, because they have those relationships and
(46:49):
they're telling they're telling you, hey, look at this guy
got money. This guy got money, not knowing if it's
actually accurate anymore.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Exactly. I think some coaches you know me, well, when
I get on the phone, they're like, oh cool, I'm
talking to Dan. Now there's a pathway to a deal.
Now we can actually talk rationally. There's gonna be real information.
My job. I'm getting on the phone with you because
I want to make a deal and I want to
find a pathway to that. I'm not here to, you know,
create chaos and hold you hostage. I have too many
(47:16):
clients to make a circus. I'm on the phone to
make a pathway to a deal. Whereas if you're talking
to a kid's parent or an AAU coach or someone
from back home, it might it might be chaos not
rooted in reality. So I think again, the coaches that
have are collectives that have good resources. Like when they
get on the phone with me, because they're like, oh cool,
we can create a deal. But now schools that have
(47:38):
no resources, it's tough for them. If you're at a
high major with a four hundred thousand dollars collective and
you're trying to compete with three million dollar collectives in
your conference, and I get on the phone, you're like, Okay, well,
I thought I was able to fleece this kid and
get him for like one of those deals you talked
about where I say it's this amount, but really it's
Peal Austin cost of attendance in a car, right, And
(47:59):
once I get on the phone and we're talking real
you know, real contract details that you don't have the resources,
you're screwed. So I think some people that hate this
system are the ones whose schools aren't don't have strong collectives.
Like you said, if you have a good collective, you
can pay to retain your guys, you can pay to
pick new guys, you can recruit intentionally. It's a wonderful system,
but it's just like anything in a capitalist society, Like
(48:19):
if you're the haves, it's it's great, and if you're
the have nots, it's really fucking tough.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Okay, So last thing, and I want to do do
more in this but both both of us have time constraints.
What's the reality to what people's budgets are in the
big conferences? Because you hear all different sorts of stuff,
What is what is real in terms budgets?
Speaker 3 (48:39):
There are a good handful of schools that are in
the three million range, and a lot of schools, you know,
I'm not going to name which schools, but there's a
lot of There's very few higher than that. Right. We
hear the rumors of you know, Arkansas being five million. Right,
we'll see if that's true. There's a few schools, maybe seven,
that are like up in that echelog. You know, it's funny.
(49:01):
I saw a report yestually that Kansas had four million dollars.
This is the highest file collective. I know two that
spent more than that last year. Okay, so there are
some outliers, and that veries year to year because there's
donor fatigue, there's new donors, there's new coaches getting jobs
and demanding big collectives. Right, But there's a lot in
that three million range. I think that's the like I
want to be competitive with everyone in my conference number.
(49:23):
And then there's high majors that are down to five
hundred k and everything in between. And there are some
schools that won this year with sub million dollar budgets
and there are some schools that had three million plus
budgets that didn't make the tournament. Money doesn't always equate
to wins. Sometimes that you have the biggest budget, you're
just getting the kids who are going for the biggest
bag and they're not valuing winning. So if you're buying
(49:45):
a team and you're not factoring in does this kid
really want to be here or is he just taking
the bag, you might spend four million bucks and end
up in that it. Or there are teams that are,
you know, we're really creative and ended up in the
tournaments at large teams with very small budgets. But but yeah,
I mean that's where it's going, and I think the
numbers are just going to keep getting higher. They're going
(50:05):
to find creative ways to funnel conference conferences, to funnel
TV revenue into collectives. They're going to find ways to
turn by games from mid majors into anile money. They're
going to keep getting more and more creative. I don't
people talk about donor fatigue. Sure, but go to any
college campus and there's a twenty million dollar building named
after a donor who wasn't fatigued, who wanted their name.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Yes, yes, I get it, but the but the building
stays there, the kids don't and and banners stay there.
Right but if it but but again that there's only
one league champion, only one national champion, only four teams.
It's like, I I know, I know one acc school
that is well funded by one guy. One guy doesn't
(50:50):
because no one else's like, dude, this doesn't make sense.
And as you know, a lot of the schools, the
you know, the high academic schools, their donors are like
this doesn't I'm not doing this right, and then their
teams can't compete and they're you know, it's really hard
for those really hard for those those coaches. But the
donor fatigue thing is a real thing because some schools,
you're trying to be good at everything, you know, and
(51:11):
they're constantly the basketball coach calls and the football coach calls,
and the baseball coach calls, and the gymnastics and there's
just like dude, and then if you have a bad
experience with one kid sometimes can cause that donor fatigue.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
But for every school, there's donor fatigue. There's a Calipari
to Arkansas situation where a new coach is saying, if
I'm taking this job, I need a multi year commitment
for X amount of millions of dollars. So for every
school that there's donor fatigue, there's a new one popping
up with donors that are not fatigued.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Okay, last question, and we'll circle back to these. Last question.
If I were to ask you, as a guy who's
real and on the ground and knows this, what's the
what's the most important thing that can a rule that
can be passed or away. Yeah, a rule that can
be passed. And like the problem with the rules are
they get passed and then somebody goes to court and
(51:59):
strikes it. But a legit rule that can pass that
you believe will help everybody.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
We need set free agency windows. We all need to
agree that, whether it's you know, March fifteenth through June first,
these are the free agency windows, and we can negotiate deals.
And if you want to extend a player you currently
have under contract during the season, that's fine. But we
can't have guys holding schools hostage mid season. We can't
have schools breaking contracts midseason. We can't have coaches getting
(52:31):
fired mid season and the donors don't want to pay
the contracts they've already signed. We need some rules around contracts.
What's enforceable.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
You want them to be employees.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
I want them to be employees, and I want to
have a union. I think it's going to happen eventually.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
What happens to the academic piece?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
I mean, that's another hour long conversation, right academic Here's
an academic piece can never be separated. The reason they're
such rapid fandom in college sports is because I went
to this school, correct school, be to your school. I'm
better than you. That's easier in college basketball than pros.
We can't pull that piece apart. But also, this whole
(53:11):
like nil when it's really paid for play, is not sustainable.
We have to call it what it is and build
rules around it for what it actually is.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Okay, so we're going to pause there. We're to get
to the academic piece, and let's figure out a time
next week because all this stuff changes. We take and
it's crazy. But I cannot tell you how much I
know this is a really busy time of year for you.
I really value your time. We've been trying to get
this thing done, but this is actually the perfect timing
of it. Yeah, and thank you so much for joining me,
(53:41):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
This is so much fun, so much fun. I bet
I'm going to have forty unread text and twelve missed
calls when I pick up my phone from this hour, baby,
But I've enjoyed this, and thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
All Right, So that's part one, Part two. We'll record
that next week. I got some other stuff coming orry
as well. Make sure you retweet this, make sure you
tell a friend about I aim for interesting, interesting people,
interesting stories, interesting angles. I think you got all of
that today, isn't sure?
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I'm not godlieve this is all ball
Hey, want to welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Doug Gotti. This is all ball.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Well, we've kind a national champion. It is Yukon and
they took down Purdue. I'm gonna give you probably five
minutes here on the state of Yukon, the state of Purdue.
Why I think we saw the results that we saw,
and then we'll get to our guest, Dan Paraman, who
is really is the biggest I think nil and agent
(00:35):
in college basketball. He's not the only one, there's other
really good ones, but Dan is He's just a very
interesting guy with amazing backstory. And I think you'll enjoy
our discussion. If you don't, hey, you download the wrong pod.
You guns defending national champions and they go back to
back and it's amazing, and I feel really happy for
(00:59):
Danny and I I think some of the perception and look,
Danny can be a little insufferable at times, but the
best part about him is he knows it. And he
said as much, you know, I can be a bit
of an asshole, like Yeah. The thing that's interesting and
you watch him coach is he coaches guys hard. But
the theatrics on the sideline are not directed towards his
own players. It's more about the officiating and the fans
(01:22):
and is it a little much like yeah, but it
works for them, and you know, Yukon kind of has
that everybody hates us and we don't care Philadelphia Eagles
sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It just kind of works for this.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
My takeaways are that the first thing is they're masterfully
coached at both ends of the floor. That they won
the thing because their defense, not their offense. Yes, the
their offense have great ball and personal movement, yes, but
they won because their defense and the game plan was
exquisite against Purdue. And the execution anybody can say, hey,
we're not leaving shooters, we're not helping the post. Hey,
(01:53):
and then we got a box out because they crashed
like badman. Anybody can say that they actually did it.
There's a commitment to the scout that's amazing. And then
of course offensively, they're beautifully coached, they play and they
have good players. But I would say two things were
at play there. One, they had better players than Purdue.
And we can sit here and go like, well, they
(02:14):
haven't played the portal game, but they don't win a
national championship unless they go and get you know, spencer,
and you know the mop is a transfer and they
don't get him unless Joe Dooley gets fired, right or
maybe you know, maybe maybe not. I don't know interest
in Newton, but they had four pros in their starting
(02:35):
a linele like Caravan's good. That guy's that's a starting
wing player in the NBA. I think because he can guard,
he can shoot, he's tough, and castle you know your
ability to play a freshman because he just competes and
for the most part knows he's not a great shooter.
Obviously in the Semis, Bama dared and shoot. He hit
those two threes, but then he knows his role. And
(02:57):
then you know, Clinging is just an impressive weak side
shot blocker, roll guy.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And you know when they blew the game open.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Both the Semis and the finals were with Clinging on
the bench, and you go in and bring a kind
of a pogo stick rim runner and they can kind
of change the way they play.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
But I think we have to admit that they're massively coached.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
The kids are locked in, the scouts share the basketball,
unbelievable fan support, and a coach that has at least
for that school, he knows how to get the energy
out of everybody in the roster.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
He knows how to get it done.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Now it's going to be a whole new world now
because you probably lose.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Your entire starting lineup.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
We'll see with Caravan, that'd be the only guy I
would think that might come back. But they're going to
have to go out in the portal and they're gonna
have to find guys to fit their culture. And now
it gets now it gets really interesting, right because Clinging
can't stay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
He just can't. Does he have to develop more?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Is shooting? Yes, a little bit postplay, sure, but give
me a lottery.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Picky can't.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Newton can't stay. So that's gonna be interestingly for it.
As for Purdue, you saw them bumping up against the ceiling.
They play hard, they accept their roles. It's really a
work of art. How physical they are, how intense they are,
very similar to Yukon that the level of intensity of
their games is different than the level of intensity of
most bill skins. The thing I'd be disappointed in though,
(04:22):
is the hitting the posts and standing like it wasn't working.
And to not have splits, to not have forty five cuts.
You know, you never use your big you know, on
Spinulu's action or flare screens, you know, there's no split
action when you hit the post, and they just don't
have good enough guys to go create their own shot.
They physically couldn't get up. They took seven and I
think three were blocked. So you got four clean looks
(04:45):
at the basket from three all game long.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
One great defense and locking in a scarraport, but two
that's just a lack of ball and player movement creativity offensively,
let's call like it is, and I get it, you
got away with it for thirty five game games. But
this is a game which they just didn't They were
just out talented and they didn't have an offense or
offensive style that could really help them. So I think
that Purdue, you know, I know they don't want to
(05:11):
sell their souls. You know, they took the only grad
transfer they took was you know, a mid major in
Lance Jones. He's a good player, but again, at that level,
you're going up against guys that are huge. I mean,
Spencer's the only one who's below his the size of
positional size, and because he's twenty four and kind of
a master with playing off two feet. But you can
(05:34):
get away with one guy like that, you can't get
away with multiple guys. And they have despite the fact
that I would get I mean, look, they're going to
keep those two guards that can keep getting better. But
I Fletcher Lawyer. He looked young in that game. He
did not look like he could play in that game.
And though I would Brayden Smith was really good for
the first half and solid for the game.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Obviously you saw against NC State.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Kind of got out of athlete and even in that game,
you know it was because there was no natural health
defense that he was able to get some creases and
make some plays. But the Braden Smith was good enough
to play in that game, but not good enough considering
the overall talent. And now you're going to take Dye
off of that team. And I think Purdue will Bobby Rogressa.
(06:18):
They'll always be good, they always be solid, But that
is unless they can get a little bit more talented wings,
a little bit more athletic dudes. I think that's their ceiling.
All right, Let's get to our conversation with Dan Pondman.
He is an incredible, incredible story. How did it start well?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Now he's arguably the most powerful agent in college basketball.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
How did it start? Take a listen, here's my conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You've become the foremost college basketball agent and nil guy?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
How that happen?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
How that start?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
All?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Well, I guess to tell you how I got to here.
I have to kind of tell you my backstory. So
I'm thirty two years old. I started in this business
when I was fourteen, So.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
I was like, wait, wait, wait, fourteen fourteen.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
So I was born in Evanston, Illinois. And this was
like right before social media started. It was like two
thousand and five. There was a blog called Chicago hoops
dot com. I was a freshman sitting in a computer
lab and I found a website that ranked the top
twenty freshmen in the state of Illinois. And I played.
I wasn't very good. Like I played. I was like,
(07:32):
you know, white kid at the end of the bench
on the good AAU team like I was. I was
good enough to be there, but not get on the court.
And I saw these rankings, and I saw friends that
I played with ranked as freshmen in the state, and
it blew my mind that players my age, that my
friends were being talked about on websites and message boards.
So I was a freshman, I decided to start a website,
(07:55):
illinoishs basketball dot com with the real rankings for high
school players Illinois. So website blew up and I spent
my high school years writing about high school basketball. I
would take the train around the city, my dad would
drive me around. Eventually I got my license and I
just did interviews, player ranking, scouting reports. So this was
pre social media, so colleges couldn't watch film on YouTube.
(08:18):
This is then you have to send a DVD in
the mail if you wanted them to see her film.
So I became like an area scout for a lot
of college coaches. So that's time I was done with
high school. I was working with pretty much every coach
in the country that was recruiting. Chicago utilized me as
their local scout. I didn't go to college. Became a
full time scout after high school, so I was essentially
doing nil, you know, before there was money involved. I
(08:40):
was helping guys pick schools. I was helping doing the
transfer portal before the transfer portal. So I spent a decade,
you know, kind of honing the skill of college player placement,
placing hundreds of guys over a decade from age fourteen
to twenty four. Twenty four, I needed to start making money,
became an agent.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Hold on, hold on, but let's we'll get to that
in a second. Okay, So, and and just it's really
really fascinating me, and I know some of this, but
it's it's interesting because you know, my late father would
he turned helping kids out right. His thing was with
(09:20):
his AU program. He wanted every kid he coached to
play in college, but at whatever love verbly on scholarship,
and he turned that into a kind of placement business
where a lot like you, right, he would try and
find the right fit for the right player at the
right level because he knew everybody in college much like
you did, much like you learn, like because of fifty
(09:42):
sixty years around basketball. And then eventually, you know, somebody
kind of said to him, like, you know, you should
charge people money for this, right, you're putting together all
these highlight tapes and you're calling all these coaches. Why
don't you make some money doing this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And he did.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
He turned into a business. So you're in high school, like,
what did your parents think?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Well, so it was funny, like when it started, it
wasn't supposed to be a business. It was a hobby
that a high school kid was doing, you know, in
my spare time at night, in my bedroom. You know,
I would go to any of U tournaments with a
little those little black and white notebooks, you know, and
I would just interview players, you know, before smartphones really
took off. So I just interviewed players in my notebook,
and it was a hobby. And then once college coaches
(10:20):
started reading my site and calling me, my parents did say,
why don't you charge these coaches? And MY response was
if I charged coaches at the time, I'm sixteen, seventeen
years old, maybe half or a quarter, we'll pay my
pay my fee. But I was like, I'm sixteen years
old and I have Bruce Weber and Mike Krzyzewski calling
me during chemistry class. Why am I limiting who I
(10:43):
can talk to based on who's paying me? What do
I need money for? My website was doing some ad revenue, right,
So I was getting you know, five hundred thousand bucks
a month for a high school kid, that's a million dollars.
That's unlimited money. I could buy beer, I could go
out to eat with my friends. So I told my
parents at the time, I'd rather build relationships. These are
(11:04):
worth more. One day this will come, this will work out,
Like one day, these relationships will pay off.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
What did your parents do for a living?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
My dad trade stocks, My mom's a writer, she's an author.
So I was, like a good middle class family, like
I was. I was, We're doing fine, roof over my head.
They could pay for my AAU tournament fees when I
played my club volleyball fees. I was, I was fine, right,
I didn't need to like support the family. I needed,
you know, pocket money for the weekends, you know. So
(11:32):
you know I did. I ran some camps like It's funny.
At my first event I ran, I was fifteen years old.
I ran an eighth grade All star game for the
best eighth graders in the state and Anthony Davis six
foot tall Anthony Davis was invited to that Ryan Boatwright,
who was committed to USC at the time. So I
ran like little events like that, like charged kids forty
bucks a pop to be in my eighth grade all
(11:53):
star game, Like I had ways to make money. But ultimately,
like I saw way down the road of like if
I build relationship with these college coaches, just will pay
off for me. And like I used to one more
story on how I would kind of was innovative in
helping college coaches. I would go to tournaments like I'd
go like a holiday tournament right where coaches would have
the rosters. You know, the top thirty two teams in
(12:13):
the state. You have the rosters, and I would spend
weeks ahead of time doing scouting reports on every player
in the tournament, but their phone number, their email address,
their parents' number. I would make these comprehensive scouting booklets
and go up to every college coach. The tournament is
given way for free, so coaches would come to try
to figure out who's good, and I'd done all the
homework handed to them. Here, you know everything about every
(12:34):
kid there any in the vision. I didn't know nil
would be a thing. I didn't know the Supreme Court
rule that I could make money doing this. At some point,
I was just helping kids get recruited and helping college
coaches and it was fun. It was like the most
fun hobby in the world. I got these coaches that
I see on TV calling me asking me for advice.
So I almost ended up going to school at Northwestern
is where Taboris Hardy was there with Bill Carmody. I
(12:56):
helped them recruit Drew Crawford, John Sharna, Kyle Rowley, Juice
to like it was the last good Cormedy team. So
I almost went to school there to be a team manager.
By the time, I was just like, I love what
I'm doing. I love scouting, I love working with all
these schools. So I just finished high school online at
seventeen and just went when full time just went at it?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Were you finished? They had high school online back then.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
So I went to the principal my school and basically said,
you are holding me back. I can't be in these
falls every day. I need to hit the road and
start scouting. So they let me do my homework remotely
and finish high school away from the building. So I
left like halfway through my senior year. I never went
back to school.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
So you're twenty four and you said I decided to
be an agent. Does that mean you decided to go
to law school? That what happen? How'd you transition to
becoming an agent?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
No, my highest degree is Evanston Township High School. I
never took the college class in my life. Basically, I
was twenty four, I'd been doing scouting for ten years.
I was and now the little money I was making
wasn't sufficient because I was living in Brooklyn with seven roommates.
Needed to actually make real money. And I had a
lot of guys that i'd come up with, who I
(14:07):
had helped place in college, who I had gone through
the whole thing with, and they're coming, Hey, Dan, I
need help finding an agent. Will you help me get
a job overseas. I had a lot of guys just
that trusted me that were asking me for help. I'd
brought them from freshman year of high school through graduating college,
wanting help in their pro career. I never wanted to
be an agent because I had this image in my
head because I'd met some agents of like kind of slimy, manipulative,
(14:30):
money hungry. It was just like something I didn't want
to be. I wanted to be a good guy, you said,
like with your dad. I loved placing kids in college.
I loved helping people, whether it's a Juco or a
d one. I just loved helping people who needed my help.
And I was like, what do these NBA players need
you for I don't want to be an agent, but
I decided finally, at twenty four, I went to get
certified to be an NBA agent. It was funny. You're
(14:50):
supposed to have a college degree to be an MBA
agent the MVPA, so they say on the application you
have to have a college degree or sufficient negotiate experience,
so make a case for deals. I had negotiated as
to why they should let me be an agent, and
I got certified. So my first client was a kid
(15:12):
named Ben Moore out of SMU. I know Ben Moore,
Ben Moore could player. He had gotten to SMU because
I had been on an AAU tournament five years earlier
with jarens Howard and Larry Brown and pointed out Ben
Moore and they recruited him. And then years later he's graduating.
So that first year I recruited probably twenty guys. Ben
(15:32):
Moore was the only one who said yes, and he
ended up making the Pacers as a two way player,
one of the first two way players. No way, and
now my foot was in the door. I've got a
guy in the league. And that was the start of
my agent career.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
What was that like to have your first conversation with
NBA people where you're like, no, no, no, I'm his agent
and you're literally an unknown.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
So in the college world, I was a known commodity.
I knew every coach in the country. Some liked me,
somewhere annoyed by me, you know, some had guys play
for their teams, and the NBA I was still it
was a completely new universe. But what I found was
when you have a good player, it's easy to make
relationships because.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Who was always call you back when you got a dude.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
They always call you back, and you got to dude.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And I literally like, Dan, this is so funny. Dead
out of sleep yesterday, okay, and I you know what
you do, Like I do this again. I've kind of
started the process of helping kids out just that I
know and all I asked for, Like I just want
to help again, same kind of deal, but find a
kid the right fit because like everything to this is
(16:38):
so much about fit right, and so I it's just
a handful of kids, but they're people that I have
strong relationships with without any sort of the background that
you have. So I happen to text seven coaches about
one kid. We're recording this on Thursday mornings, so this
(17:00):
is Tuesday night. Hey, when you have time, I'd like
to talk about such and such if you're interested. Six
in the morning, West Coast time, my phone rings. It's
an SEC coach. This is six fifteen. It's another catch.
It's like, and they're guys, and they're my they're my friends,
(17:20):
and I truly do like them, and we talk usually
via text, but it's it is usually a bit of
a one sided relationship most of the season, you know,
where I'm reaching out to them, they're like, hey, man,
what's up. Just want to check over with you. But
then you got a dude.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
You got a dude. Yeah, and if you if that
same dude wasn't a dude, they would call you back eventually,
but not a sixth morning. If it was an OK dude,
they call you later in the week. But if it's
a they're going to talk and again. So like to
the story, I've been more who's not like a first
round pick, but he's a Portsmouth guy. He did well
at Portsmouth. He's a good player. So you know, I
(17:56):
remember he got the Wizards brought him in for work out,
the Pacers, the Lakers the Buck. So like I'm building
my MBA relationships because I've got this guy everyone's calling about.
And I remember that first draft, you know, when the
draft starts and they have like little like the little
jingle like you know whatever. I remember like getting chills,
being like, oh my god, I've been watching the draft
(18:18):
since I was I remember being eleven years old at
Jewish overnight camp when the draft was one of my
parents would send me printouts of who got drafted so
I could study it in my cabin. I went the
draft of starting, and I'm a part of it. I
went to Campshy and Lake Delton, Wisconsin and the Dells.
I got kicked out when I was fourteen for sneaking
into girls cabins and that was right around when I
(18:40):
started starting my website. So it worked perfectly. That summers
after that were aau you know. But so then I
remember Ben Moore ended up getting a training camp invite.
After the draft is done, the third round starts, I
second round ends, third round starts. Pacers called me. It
was funny. Actually, there was a controversy that year because
Chris Wallace was the GM of the of the Grizzlies
(19:01):
and he thought that he was getting Ben Moore, and
he goes into a press conference and while he's in
the press conference, we agree to terms with the Pacers.
So Chris Wallace gets out of the press conference, sees
the text, he choos me out. So my first draft,
I got a guy signed, I also got chewed out
by Chris Wallace just just annihilated me. And I was
(19:23):
I remember popping a bottle of champagne because Ben Moore
got a fifty thousand dollars training camp guaranteed with the Pacers,
and I'm like, wow, like I'm in the game, this
is real. I've made it. I'm all my way.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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listen live good.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So here's here's the here's the interesting thing, right, like
the the the NBA agent of draftics and the fact
that you guys stay together that long, tell me how
accurate this is?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Right?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Everybody's late first or early second, right, and then inevitably
it's kind of like college basketball now where you almost
want to come in second because you don't get drafted
to the level most guys paint up rosier picture than
it really is in order to get the client. The
(20:21):
client signs, goes through, everything ends up not being drafted
or drafted late second round or whatever. Then he fires
the agent, then he comes back to the second agent whatever,
like it's the agent's fault that he where he got drafted.
What's the reality though, of starting out on your own
as opposed to there are guys that have such a
deep client list that the second round becomes favors. Are
(20:42):
there still the percentage? What's the percentage that are still
favors today?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yeah, I would say there are. There are some favors
in the second round for sure, and there are some
favors when there's those back end like the fifteenth spot,
training camp battles. But I think even though I'm not
necessarily getting the favors that are Mark Bartlestein are built
build up. You gets I've been in I'm a lifer
in this business, so I have my own relationships where
sometimes if there's a tie they go with they like
Dan and I'm you know, I'm a good guy and
(21:08):
people want to see me succeed Again. I think I
haven't approached this business in a way where I've burned bridges.
I've been dared people to myself, and I think I've
gotten some favors too. But I think to your other point,
like one thing that I faced is I'm not you know,
starting out, I wasn't recruiting lottery picks. I'm recruiting Portsmouth guys,
third round guys, and a lot of them are getting
(21:29):
to the league. Right. I've been scouting background, so I'm
finding guys who are going to overachieve, and then as
soon as they play their first NBA game, all the
big agents are waiting in the tunnel and they're all
just they're waiting for guys like me to get a
sure guy to the league.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Hey, in baseball. In baseball, there's actually a deal where
guys buy up the agent's deal. Right, if you know
you get then they'll they'll buy them up and then
you continue to get a percentage of the cut. So
it's different in baseball. But that's like all part of
the business.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
That'd be nice, But because I've had some guys like again,
I had weird luck through my first few years because
like my first draft pick, who we've talked about this
guy before. I think he still could come on the
show at some point. Tyrell Terry was my first draft pick.
I'm twenty seven, twenty eight years old. I have this
kid during COVID who gets picked thirty first by the
Dallas Mavericks six million dollar deal, my first draft pick.
(22:22):
So again I'm like, I'm rushing it. I am twenty
eight and I just had the thirty first pick in
the draft. Working for myself. This is I mean, I'm unstoppable.
And then he had you know, he had some personal
issues and he ended up retiring after a year, and
which you know, he and I talked yesterday. We're still
friends to this day. He's graduating from Stanford this year.
He's doing great and he got to keep his money,
which was great too, thanks Mark Cuban. But and in
(22:45):
the next year, I signed a kid named Delano Banton,
who again wasn't in the ESPN one hundred. He was like,
not even expected to be. In the conversation, he's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
So wait wait, So so I first saw then at
Vanton when he started playing for Western Kentucky. And by
the way, just see you aware this is a real story.
This podcast became an idea because of the game I
did at Western Kentucky. No shit, Yes, so I do games.
I've done games for everybody. And I did get So Stadium,
(23:20):
which is an app and they have Ota as well,
so Joe Riley runs their games there and he sent
me a list of games and he's like, hey, any
games you can do, just do them. And there were
two that were back to back days. One was Middle
Tennessee State. The Middle Tennessee State was rolling back then
(23:43):
and I'm trying to think. I can't remember who they played,
but they played him at home in Murphysboro and then
wester Kentucky played the next day in Bowling Green and
it's like a four hour drive, maybe three and a
half hour drive. So I'm like, you know what I'm
gonna Can I do of those games? So like really
like yeah, I mean like because it's not a ton
(24:05):
of money, but I love to go out and see basketball,
and like you get paid to talk about basketball, greatest
shit ever, so I and you know, to me, it's
like everything is about time away from home. Plus I'm
doing a radio show, Like I try to condense as
much travel as I can. So I took a red
eye to Nashville in the morning. So I go and
(24:26):
I do my radio show in Nashville. You get done,
I dried to Murphy's Burrow, I do the game, I
get my car, and I dried to Bowling Green and
then I do my show and the game the next day.
So I'm in between Murphy's Borough and Bowling Green and
it is pouring ring And I have this thing that
I do when I'm on the road, when I quick
(24:49):
when I rent a car, is I try and find
the newest car on the lot. Like a new car
never breaks down, and a new car oftentimes still has
the serious sex have radio. And I'd let my serious
thing expire, right, So I just happened to get literally,
like a brand new car, like seventy miles on, so
(25:09):
you know, you're like smells. It might have been a Spike,
a Malibu. It's not like it's anything, not super nice,
but it's brand new. And I'm listening to Serious Next Time,
and I'm listening to Howard Stern's Turnout, and I hadn't
heard of Howard Stern in a long time. And he
has Megan Trainer on and she's telling the story of
how she made it and that she was the songwriter
(25:31):
and she played everything on her ukulele, and she had
one verse too. I don't think it was all about
that base. I think is I'm gonna love you like
I'm gonna lose you. And she goes in to see
La Reid, and La Reid liked it, but he's like,
I want to hear the whole song, and she didn't
really have the whole song, so she worked out. She
spent like a day in the conference room learning, teaching
(25:55):
herself how to play the whole song, and by the
end of the day she plays it for him. He's like,
let's do let's record it. And then you picked the
artist and he's like, no, no, you're perfect for it.
You record it and anyway, so the whole thing, I'm
i the greatest comment you could ever give somebody when
I did when I do Trestrall radio is hey, I
listened through a break or I didn't. I got to
(26:16):
where I was going and I didn't get out of
my car until that segment that interview was over. And
that's what was me. How about this, I'm driving through
this pouring rainstorm. I get a call and it was
my wife at the time, and she she calls and
she's like, where are you? And I was like, I'm
somewhere in between Mercherys Burro and Bowling Green, Kentucky. And
she's like, I think you're in the middle of like
(26:37):
a tornado watch. So I actually, like I had to
pull over and I was under one of those underpasses
because the weather was so bad in case the tornado
comes through, like you're taught to be under the underpass,
And I sat there for two minutes listening to that,
but I pull had to pull up just so like
to the front of it, because otherwise I couldn't hear
the serious XM because the satellite couldn't go through it.
(26:59):
So anyway, in my mind, I said, yeah, you know,
I just like hearing people's stories, so I wanted I
The next day I was calling. I was talking to
Cowherd and he was launching his old podcast network and
he's like, whatever you want to do, do it, and
I was like, Okay, I want to do a basketball podcast,
(27:21):
but I don't want to make it about like hot
takes about basketball. I just want to tell stories just
because because like my my my childhood was about my
dad sitting around with guys and they're all telling stories.
And when my college teammates me just tell stories like
that's all I want. Anyway, So the next day I
go to West Kentucky and Dona Blanton was the point guard. Right,
(27:41):
didn't shoot much, but like you're like, dude, that guy
is like six seven six ' eight and completely controls
the game. Anyway, That's why I first saw.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I used to I used to have a serious xip
of my car. Used to love to listen to Howard
Stern interviews. They're the best, the best, same thing you
would you sit in the bar and I have to
hear the end of I remember Meghan Trainer. I think
I heard that one too. Troy Carter was a Philly
manager who ended up signing her. I remember this story.
But anyway, Delano Banton, so he was again the next
(28:13):
success slash failure in my story. Was I signed Delano Banton?
He's he was at Nebraska, not on the ESPN one hundred.
I ended up he didn't get invited to the Combine
or the G League Elite camp. He had zero votes
from teams. But my friend shout out to Steve Nef.
He's now a front office agent at clutch, but he
was running the G League at the time and a
(28:34):
player Dicky Jones from Houston got hurt the day before
the combine and I convinced him to let Delano play
as an injury replacement. On the last day he gets
in the combine, he ends up killing. He kills the pro.
Dad ends up getting drafted forty six by the Toronto Raptors,
the most unlikely pick in the draft for two years
two point five million. So again, back to back years,
(28:55):
I have tyrrel than Delano, these unlikely guys getting drafted,
and again I'm on top.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Of the world.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Well, Delano's assistant coach from Western Kentucky ends up leaving
to become an agent, and Delano goes with his coach
who recruited him, which I was like, you know what,
I respect it. You know, I worked three months, I
made a nice commission. You went with your guy. We
have a great relationship. But now here I am back
to back years. Two guys drafted with guaranteed money, zero
clients in the NBA like that stuff the business such
(29:25):
as life, And at this point I'm like almost seriously questioning,
like is the universe telling me that I shouldn't be
doing this, Like I've reached these peaks and I just
keep getting knocked on my ass, Like, God, are you
telling me I'm not supposed to be an agent? Should I, like,
you know, go back to running a nonprofit in Chicago,
just helping kids. Are you telling me to run away
(29:46):
from this? And this is around the time that the
Supreme Court ruled that college players can get paid on
their name, image of likeness. And at the time, I
didn't totally see what it was going to become. It
was like at the time, it's like, oh, you can
get at you know, sponsorships from the local pizza shop,
or you know, if you're Zion Williams and you can
(30:07):
get a Nike deal. But I the first few months,
I didn't totally know what was going to happen. But
it was that first transfer season. I had a guy
who I was helping transfer like I've been doing for
twenty years. This is every year, even when I was
an agent, and you know, doing that full time. Every
year there's a few kids who are transferring, I'm helping
find a new school. It's just I do it because
(30:28):
I love it. It's a skill set that I've honed
over two decades. So I've began transferring and one school
was like, Hey, we've got this thing called the collective
where our boosters have pooled money. We can get this kid,
you know, X amount of dollars guaranteed per month if
he comes to our school, you know. And it clicked
(30:49):
to me like, holy shit, collect anile collected. Everybody's going
to start doing this. So I had this the first year.
I had this one kid who got a nice anile
collective deal when he transferred. And then I spent the
next year talking to every one of my college coaching
friends like, hey, guys, this is where the business is going.
These things called anile collectives are popping up. This is
how it's going to reshape our game. I immediately from
(31:10):
that first deal kind of saw where this was going.
And here we are three years later, and every school
as a collective, some of them have five million dollars,
and I represent more high major players than anybody else
in college basketball. Because I just kind of saw where
this was going, and it was the perfect merger of
the two eras of my life. It's I have eighteen
(31:30):
years of experience placing guys in colleges and knowing how
to find perfect fit and those relationships I honed when
I was in high school that I told my parents
would pay off one day. Well, now every school in
the country has some guy I knew when I was
sixteen and they were a GA and now they're the
head coach, right, and then combining that with my NBA
agent experience, it was just kind of this perfect merger
(31:52):
of worlds for me to assert myself as the guy
in college basketball. And it's worked out pretty well so far.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
So what's the reality to how it works? At what
point in time during this season.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Did you.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Make contact with it like a new client? Like how
does that? How does that come?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
What's the timing of Like how does it actually come
to be?
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah, well, it's an interesting dance, okay, because I try
to do things right. I try to operate in good
faith and like the reality is, yes, there is money
to be made by signing really good players who are
going to transfer right the open market leads to profit.
But I'm also friends with the coaches at the schools
the guys are leaving, right, So it is this delicate
(32:41):
dance of I don't want to be hitting up the
mid major player where I'm friends at the head coach
telling them, hey, dude, you can make this much money
in the portal because I'm friends with the coaches on
both sides. So it puts me in this position where
every step is like this ethical moral the lemma of
how what's the best way to operate, what's what's the
way right? Not of just how do I make money
(33:01):
short term, but how do I do what's right for
all parties involved? So it's different free situation. I had
mid major coaches call me in December of this past
year say, hey, my best player is averaging twenty points
a game and he's definitely moving up a level. Will
will you talk to him? Will you sign him? I
want him to have be in good hands and yeah.
(33:24):
And I had a coach to say, just keep them
focused during the season, like, don't they don't want a
million people reaching out saying I got this deal at
this school, this deal, Hey, you handle it, you sign them,
keep them focused till the seasons done. So my favorite
situation is when the mid major coach knows the guy's
leaving and just says, look, Dan, I want you to
look out for him and maybe find me a replacement
because there's going to be some high major where a
(33:45):
kid didn't get enough playing time that needs to move down.
Maybe you can find me someone to replace the kid.
And I think that's the way it should operate, because
at the end of the day, you're in mid major
school and you have a kid averaging twenty a game
and he's making zero dollars nine times out of ten
hit in the portal, he's going to get paid.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
What about what about kids that are at high majors
are doing well and are being compensated. And then you'll
have you go to do a game and everybody's like, yeah,
you know, he's in he's he's in the portal. You
know what, what does it like to do business that way?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Well, that is one challenging aspect of this business is
like the retention negotiation where it's like, Hey, this guy's
already on your team. He could get this on the
open market, but I don't. But he's happy there. I
want him to stay, so can we work out a
deal to make him happy so he doesn't have to
(34:37):
look elsewhere? And that's always college coaches. High major college
coaches are used to being dictators. They're used to having
full control of their programs for the last you know,
however many years. So for a kid to say this
is what I'm worth to stay is really tough pill
to swallow for high major head coaches. And I've had
at the Final Four this weekend. I had some really
uncomfortable conversations with Mount Rushmore level high major coaches where
(35:03):
but again, my thing isn't like he's going to hit
the portal if you don't give him this. It's look, man,
he's in a good situation. He's happy where he's at.
He could get this in the open market, but he's
not leaving. But just be fair. Let's compensate him fairly
for what he did last season. And some people are
cool with that, and some coaches are easy to do it,
and some it's a nightmare. It's like pulling teeth because
(35:24):
they're used to being dictators and having full control of
their program. So every situation is different. But it's my
job to understand the relationship dynamics, understand the personalities of
each school, of each coach, understand the personality of the players.
Is to be a bridge, right, So a kid's not
marching into the coach's office saying pay me five hundred
grand or I'm out. It's like, no, let me be
a buffer. Let me work both and find a bridge
(35:46):
where everyone's going to be happy. Like, my goal isn't
to rake schools over the coals and make these dudes
pay out the eyeballs. My goal is for everyone to
be happy. Build a bridge where you have a happy player,
happy coach win basketball games.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
One of the things, and I think the head coaches
struggle with is not just the control aspect, it's the
it's the you know, I think I'm worth this and
you're like, dude, and you know, you know it is.
It's it's like liar's poker. You know, no one knows
the reality of it or whatever. And I know it
is your job to have to really be able to
(36:22):
if if said player was available, what would it be
worth to you? Right, That's that's really what you're the
Other part of your role is to give somebody reasonable
But how do you come upon that valuation? I guess
is the is the big question.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Absolutely, And I deal with this all the time, and
I think, again, I can't speak on the top of
all agents, there are some It's funny in the Nile
agent space, there are some people like me who are
MBA agents for a decade and have decided to work
in the college space as well. We know what we're doing.
And then there are people who just graduated college and
call themselves an annile agent and have no clue what they're doing.
So yeah, I'm not going to put all agents in
(36:57):
the bucket same bucket. But for a good agent, this
is our job all year to understand the marketplace, understand values,
understand what a player like this would be worth. And
there's two valuations. There's what is the actual market value
at you know, for most of the schools that are
going to be in the conversation, and then what are
the outliers? Right? Every year there's a few schools with
absurd budgets that are going to throw crazy numbers. I'm
(37:19):
not going to say which ones are that, but there
are a few schools in this market where you're going
to have five offers at three hundred and one at
six because someone's just coming with it. You know who knows.
Arkansas probably the next one in that space. All signs
point to that, right, there's going to be the outloders, right,
and you don't use an outlier number to leverage against
a current coach for retention, because that's not fair. If
(37:40):
I came and said, well, Arkansas is offering this, it's
like yeah, because they have unlimited money, right.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
So it's a desperation there to flip it and be
really good.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Right, and they got to build a roster fast, so
they're gonna be desperate. But it's like my job to
understand what is the actual market rate for this player
based on you know, other players like them, What are
they making, how much the schools want. It's my job
to know. And what's tough is some of these coaches
they're worried about coaching the team all year. They're not
serving the market understanding the movement. When when our price
is peaking, When are you know what's the inventory, what
(38:10):
positions are worth more? They're just guessing. And that's why
schools that have gms, there are certain schools that have
higher gms. I like dealing with them more because I
have a fair sparring partner, someone who actually also all
year is figuring out this information instead of just a
coaches guessing. But also like there is a lot of
misinformation where you know AAU coaches or parents are just saying, hey,
(38:33):
you should hit the portal and get paid, And it's
like guys are entering the portal without knowing what their
actual value is. So I've had guys this year who
are at mid majors who are like, hey, Dan, will
you figure out what my value is before I enter?
And I'll go talk to seven high major coaches, get
a nod of miss evaluations, give it to the kid,
and then they can decide based on real information from
(38:54):
high major coaches. You know, I had a kid this
year who I could assigned, who's at a good mid major.
I got seven evaluations, and every high major coach said,
you're a six through nine rotation player. You can make
you know x amount. And the kid took the information
returned to his mid major to be a star. Now
I could have lied to him and fudge the feedback
so he could have entered, and I could have made
(39:15):
a commission. But the right thing to do is, hey,
all signs point to you being a backround rotation player.
So the kid goes back to school. But I think
there are in other situations that kid might have just seen, Oh,
I have high major interest, I'm going to jump in
the portal and then his career's ruined because he goes
and averages four points a game.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I've seen you tweet some about it. Okay, So how
can both sides get more of what they want with
the contract? And here's I'll give you a couple of
things I've heard. So I let's start by this. I
spent this year as a consultant with at Oklahoma Stake
(39:55):
so and just so everyone's where none of the stories
I'm going to talk about but I are Oklam State stories,
so that would be unfair to Mike to seek granted
me such access. But I do know of the stories
of other schools, not necessarily coming from them, but coming
from from around the country. Is that how people get
to their numbers is really shaky, right, Well, you know
(40:20):
it's X per month, right, That's generally what I've heard
is most of it's how much per month, which is
a lot more like when I played in Europe. That's
really more of what it's kind of like, that's that's
the model, But how they actually get there. They count
pell right, They count Alston money, they count cost of attendance,
and some count the overall value of a vehicle. Even
(40:41):
though you're really only at least in the vehicle. You
don't get to keep the vehicle right, So there's some
kind of fuzzy accounting there in terms of how they
get to the number.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Is that fair that? And how like what are the
percentages that just do the money and what are the
percentage of the ones that do the factor in all
that other stuff.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Well, I think that's part of the importance of a
good agent. And I say good agent because there are
some bad agents out there. The importance of a good
agent is to understand that when you're getting a number
from a school, that could mean a wide variety of things.
And it's my job to hammer in on the details
of how much of this is is an ile compensation,
(41:25):
how much of it is guaranteed, how much of it
is you know, some schools are doing multi year deals
where it's backloaded so that you don't get your money
if you enter the portal the next year, so it's
not really camp for that season, but it's comp for
attention for next year. Right. There are sneaky ways they
can move the money.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Around, which I love, which, by the way, and I
know in your space you probably don't write the object
is to get what you're supposed to get. I like
because I think that that's what's missing in this era,
is the inability to build culture and cohesiveness or whatever,
and the rewards that guys are getting financially. You know,
(42:00):
it's it's like, I mean, tyr El Terry didn't have
to experience it because you only stayed one year at Stanford.
But the ability to go back, the ability to be
part of a college basketball program, like, that's a powerful thing.
But from the agent space, right, you don't like the
backload of ones.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Well, there's upside downside to it, Like and I put
out tweets about this other day about Hey, as an agent,
I'm sometimes open to putting academic requirements in that ile deals,
but you know, behavioral requirements, you know, following team rules.
Sometimes there are retention bonuses or graduation bonuses. I'm fine
with that in some cases. But here's the downside of
the you know, post portal period retention bonus. I have
(42:36):
a kid, let's say, who goes okay Obviously in the
in the situation the kid overachieving that the retention bonus
makes sense. It's like, hey, you played great, we want
to keep you, so you have a bonus if you stay. Now,
what about the case where a kid goes to a
school and it's not what he thought it was and
it doesn't play them a lot, and it's either trying
to run them off, but they're Anil comp was backloaded
(42:59):
to May, so they're able to run them off, and
that he doesn't get the compensation that he earned for
that year. So I'm in some situations like that where
kids are right now, kids are interested in entering the portal,
but they have big April May payments, but they didn't
play a lot where they're at, so the schools running
them off. So what do you do in that situation?
And that's why as an agent, you don't want to
backload that compensation because it gives a school a chance
(43:22):
to screw a kid over who they don't want anymore.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
This thing has evolved over the past couple of years, Right,
what it looks like now? What's your negotiations are now?
Very different? I'm sure even than last year. Definitely different
than two years ago. What's the newest what's the twenty
twenty four what's the newest change to how people are
doing business?
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Well, I'm trying to bring this thing into the future.
You've seen some of my tweets on it. It's like,
my thing is everyone's so busy complaining about the chaos. Well,
let's find opportunity in the chaos. Let's say the NCAA
is not coming down to save us. It's our job
as the stakeholders to figure out how to stabilize this
ecosystem and create forward. So I've proposed to schools this year,
(44:05):
let's do multi year deals with buyouts where hey, if
you're a mid major you're giving a kid a three
year deal for twenty fifty thousand, let's build in one
hundred thousand dollars buyout, or if he breaks the contract,
he has to pay back x amount of dollars. Now,
the reason you're breaking the contract is as you're going
to a biger school where you'reetting paid triple. So essentially
new collective buying out the contract, replenishing the mid major
school from getting pillaged for all their good players. I'm
(44:28):
proposing things like this to schools or to collectives, but
I've seen very few collectives willing to be creative enough
to push this thing into the future. They're still operating.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
What about a noncompete class like in conference noncompete clause.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
It's tough because you can't do it's not pay for place,
so it can't be tied to schools in conference, so
it would be the anile collective. Right, it's a marketing company.
You can do a buyout because you can say, well,
if you signed with another marketing company, then you're breaking
this contract and that a new marketing company has to
pay you back. Well, could you say non competing in conference,
because you couldn't really say.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
I think I think the buyout. I think the buyout
is probably the way to go, the way to protect
from from this. You know what's interesting about you said
the opportunity and I agree, completely agree, and you know
I don't like to pay for play, and and you
said you didn't know where it's going, Like this was
always why I was people like you're against guys getting likes, no,
because you can't control it, because it no longer ceased
(45:26):
to become about nil, right, But I do know, Like
I talked to a coach who older, gentleman, and he's
established and he's got a really good team coming back,
and he's like I kind of like it. He's like
I have like three maybe four starters. I have some
(45:46):
money now and I can go around and pick which
guy I want to add. He's like, if I had
to create a whole new team yearly, I would hate
it wouldn't be for me. But what I have like,
I actually like it. Like all these guys are complain
about it, I'm just laying out of it. So you know,
it's a very It's interesting that people are sure of
coming around to it. I think what they don't like
is they don't like the players marching in and saying
(46:07):
some value. They don't like guys that they think can't play,
you know, holding them over to the coles and knowing
that hey, dude, like you're like two three years away
and nobody likes the in conference like I coach you,
and then you go and shake hands and go play
for their rival. Whitches happen? I mean, Kobe Johnson went
(46:28):
from USC to UCLA, Like, wow, it's a lot. I
think those are the things that the guys generally don't like,
and it's when they don't get to work with people
like you, actually, the ones I talk to. It's like
when you've got some dude from back home who doesn't
know anything, telling them, hey, they're going to get five
hundred grand, and you're like, right, that's a hard thing
to cut through though, because they have those relationships and
(46:49):
they're telling they're telling you, hey, look at this guy
got money. This guy got money, not knowing if it's
actually accurate anymore.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Exactly. I think some coaches you know me, well, when
I get on the phone, they're like, oh cool, I'm
talking to Dan. Now there's a pathway to a deal.
Now we can actually talk rationally. There's gonna be real information.
My job. I'm getting on the phone with you because
I want to make a deal and I want to
find a pathway to that. I'm not here to, you know,
create chaos and hold you hostage. I have too many
(47:16):
clients to make a circus. I'm on the phone to
make a pathway to a deal. Whereas if you're talking
to a kid's parent or an AAU coach or someone
from back home, it might it might be chaos not
rooted in reality. So I think again, the coaches that
have are collectives that have good resources. Like when they
get on the phone with me, because they're like, oh cool,
we can create a deal. But now schools that have
(47:38):
no resources, it's tough for them. If you're at a
high major with a four hundred thousand dollars collective and
you're trying to compete with three million dollar collectives in
your conference, and I get on the phone, you're like, Okay, well,
I thought I was able to fleece this kid and
get him for like one of those deals you talked
about where I say it's this amount, but really it's
Peal Austin cost of attendance in a car, right, And
(47:59):
once I get on the phone and we're talking real
you know, real contract details that you don't have the resources,
you're screwed. So I think some people that hate this
system are the ones whose schools aren't don't have strong collectives.
Like you said, if you have a good collective, you
can pay to retain your guys, you can pay to
pick new guys, you can recruit intentionally. It's a wonderful system,
but it's just like anything in a capitalist society, Like
(48:19):
if you're the haves, it's it's great, and if you're
the have nots, it's really fucking tough.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Okay, So last thing, and I want to do do
more in this but both both of us have time constraints.
What's the reality to what people's budgets are in the
big conferences? Because you hear all different sorts of stuff,
What is what is real in terms budgets?
Speaker 3 (48:39):
There are a good handful of schools that are in
the three million range, and a lot of schools, you know,
I'm not going to name which schools, but there's a
lot of There's very few higher than that. Right. We
hear the rumors of you know, Arkansas being five million. Right,
we'll see if that's true. There's a few schools, maybe seven,
that are like up in that echelog. You know, it's funny.
(49:01):
I saw a report yestually that Kansas had four million dollars.
This is the highest file collective. I know two that
spent more than that last year. Okay, so there are
some outliers, and that veries year to year because there's
donor fatigue, there's new donors, there's new coaches getting jobs
and demanding big collectives. Right, But there's a lot in
that three million range. I think that's the like I
want to be competitive with everyone in my conference number.
(49:23):
And then there's high majors that are down to five
hundred k and everything in between. And there are some
schools that won this year with sub million dollar budgets
and there are some schools that had three million plus
budgets that didn't make the tournament. Money doesn't always equate
to wins. Sometimes that you have the biggest budget, you're
just getting the kids who are going for the biggest
bag and they're not valuing winning. So if you're buying
(49:45):
a team and you're not factoring in does this kid
really want to be here or is he just taking
the bag, you might spend four million bucks and end
up in that it. Or there are teams that are,
you know, we're really creative and ended up in the
tournaments at large teams with very small budgets. But but yeah,
I mean that's where it's going, and I think the
numbers are just going to keep getting higher. They're going
(50:05):
to find creative ways to funnel conference conferences, to funnel
TV revenue into collectives. They're going to find ways to
turn by games from mid majors into anile money. They're
going to keep getting more and more creative. I don't
people talk about donor fatigue. Sure, but go to any
college campus and there's a twenty million dollar building named
after a donor who wasn't fatigued, who wanted their name.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Yes, yes, I get it, but the but the building
stays there, the kids don't and and banners stay there.
Right but if it but but again that there's only
one league champion, only one national champion, only four teams.
It's like, I I know, I know one acc school
that is well funded by one guy. One guy doesn't
(50:50):
because no one else's like, dude, this doesn't make sense.
And as you know, a lot of the schools, the
you know, the high academic schools, their donors are like
this doesn't I'm not doing this right, and then their
teams can't compete and they're you know, it's really hard
for those really hard for those those coaches. But the
donor fatigue thing is a real thing because some schools,
you're trying to be good at everything, you know, and
(51:11):
they're constantly the basketball coach calls and the football coach calls,
and the baseball coach calls, and the gymnastics and there's
just like dude, and then if you have a bad
experience with one kid sometimes can cause that donor fatigue.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
But for every school, there's donor fatigue. There's a Calipari
to Arkansas situation where a new coach is saying, if
I'm taking this job, I need a multi year commitment
for X amount of millions of dollars. So for every
school that there's donor fatigue, there's a new one popping
up with donors that are not fatigued.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Okay, last question, and we'll circle back to these. Last question.
If I were to ask you, as a guy who's
real and on the ground and knows this, what's the
what's the most important thing that can a rule that
can be passed or away. Yeah, a rule that can
be passed. And like the problem with the rules are
they get passed and then somebody goes to court and
(51:59):
strikes it. But a legit rule that can pass that
you believe will help everybody.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
We need set free agency windows. We all need to
agree that, whether it's you know, March fifteenth through June first,
these are the free agency windows, and we can negotiate deals.
And if you want to extend a player you currently
have under contract during the season, that's fine. But we
can't have guys holding schools hostage mid season. We can't
have schools breaking contracts midseason. We can't have coaches getting
(52:31):
fired mid season and the donors don't want to pay
the contracts they've already signed. We need some rules around contracts.
What's enforceable.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
You want them to be employees.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
I want them to be employees, and I want to
have a union. I think it's going to happen eventually.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
What happens to the academic piece?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
I mean, that's another hour long conversation, right academic Here's
an academic piece can never be separated. The reason they're
such rapid fandom in college sports is because I went
to this school, correct school, be to your school. I'm
better than you. That's easier in college basketball than pros.
We can't pull that piece apart. But also, this whole
(53:11):
like nil when it's really paid for play, is not sustainable.
We have to call it what it is and build
rules around it for what it actually is.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Okay, so we're going to pause there. We're to get
to the academic piece, and let's figure out a time
next week because all this stuff changes. We take and
it's crazy. But I cannot tell you how much I
know this is a really busy time of year for you.
I really value your time. We've been trying to get
this thing done, but this is actually the perfect timing
of it. Yeah, and thank you so much for joining me,
(53:41):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
This is so much fun, so much fun. I bet
I'm going to have forty unread text and twelve missed
calls when I pick up my phone from this hour, baby,
But I've enjoyed this, and thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
All Right, So that's part one, Part two. We'll record
that next week. I got some other stuff coming orry
as well. Make sure you retweet this, make sure you
tell a friend about I aim for interesting, interesting people,
interesting stories, interesting angles. I think you got all of
that today, isn't sure?
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I'm not godlieve this is all ball
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