First, Doug gives his pre-tournament college hoop thoughts on what players teams and conferences he's watching heading into March, and if ESPN's Jay Williams deserves to get crushed for his Caitlin Clark hot take.
Then, Gottlieb continues his talk with former Bears Director of Player Personnel Josh Lucas to discuss cutting his teeth in his first NFL job as a Jags intern under Tom Coughlin, landing scouting job with the Saints days before Hurricane Katrina wiped out New Orleans, the ‘Katrina’ year experience in San Antonio, reaching a crisis point managing his anxiety, and how he developed a prescription pill addiction to self-medicate, and how he continued to climb the NFL front office ladder to become the Bears Personnel Director despite of it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, what welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm jug Gottlieb.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Oball and oh ball is your home.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
A great storytelling and some opinions on all things well
basketball but also just stick of all sports. We continue
with Josh Lucas is our part two with the former
director of player personnel with Chicago Bears, and in part
one we talked about his turbulent past as a kid
(00:32):
grown up in Ohio. Took him to Harvard where he
played football but for a very short period of time
because his body kind of failed him, and he eventually
found his way to Jacksonville and the NFL. That's kind
of where we left off and his story starts to
take a little bit of a turn.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
But before we get to Josh, let's kind of recap
some wild times in college basket in terms of the
actual teams. I think about the week we've had already.
Now you go back on the weekend with Purdue losing,
and during the week Yukon gets not beaten but blown
(01:13):
out by great by Guy cash Worth splash Worth.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Steven Ashworth. It's three after three and the Blue.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Jays show themselves to be at least partially the team
that so many of us expected them to be when
the preseason rankings came out.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And some of this is about, you.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Know, styles, make the fight, and you're at home and
you're able to set the tempo and you're able to
kind of play your game. Some of it is, hey,
look they got an older veteran team and when they're
started hitting shots and they're playing their game, And some
of it is YUKHN didn't play well, didn't react well
to the university, and they've been playing at a magic level.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Right.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
It's hard for a college kid to get done beating
you know, Marquette, who they think they have to beat
in order to win their league. And now you go
to Creighton, who's been a little bit disappointing, and get
up to that same level, especially playing on the road.
So there's a lot of college basketball stuff to get to, right.
Purdue Yukon losing both of the road but losing a
(02:18):
lot of the turbulence with transfer portal and NIL coaches
speaking out about it, whether it's Rick Pictino talking about
his team, which he since apologized for, you kind of
name you go through, Mike Boyton talking about where Oklahoma
State sits with NIL in the Big Twelve, and it's
(02:39):
led to struggles in recruiting.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Coaches kind of.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Speaking out and calling out and pointing out that their
teams might not be as good as advertised. Has it
necessarily landed well with a lot of fans, But there's
also very few, if any lies that are told. And
so maybe it's like a pr list. We'll circle back,
we'll get to that. So in college basketball you got
(03:07):
just some craziness with the ups and downs, the ebbs
and flows, wins, the losses. You have the coaches trying
to figure out the new world order, and there's been
varying degrees of success b throughout the season or as
the season goes on. Younger teams are getting better. I
mentioned Oklahoma State. They just beat Cincinnati for their first
(03:29):
road win of the year UCLA, although they lost to
Utah at home. A blind man can see that mccronning
with his young crew, they're starting to figure it out,
as opposed to a team like in Indiana, which has
just been a complete thud. So you got all different
types of teams, different types of spending. In terms of nil,
(03:51):
you have some incredible stories. Let's first give a little
respect to the Mountain West. Backing up Sandyo State playing
for a national championship. With the type of year they're having,
where you could very I don't want to say easily,
but you could definitely see six teams getting into the
NCAA Tournament's true. Sixteen boys started out a little slow
(04:13):
this year, but man, they've come on strong. Utah State's
been the surprise of the league. We know what santi
of the State brings to the table. They'll make the
tournament where you see them, that's going to be hard.
You got Colorado State, which of course start out with
such a great start, then Hit'll Ull just lost to
New Mexico in a great game, speaking of New Mexican
(04:34):
and Mexico, and then you get Nevada.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I mean, incredible league.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
And the other cool part about the league so many
of the games played in altitude, makes road games even harder,
but also amazing places to go to games. You know,
BAHAs is no longer new, it's twenty five years old,
but still really cool.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
The pit.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
To me is one of the iconic spots in all
of college basketball. Dee Glenn's Spectrum Events Center just called
the Spectrum to the folks and logan at Utah State
awesome place and kind of finally getting it's due with
Stu Morrell in his name on the court. You know,
Boise State's not like special as an arena, but as
(05:18):
a city, it's like the coolest city you'll never visit.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And they're really good.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Plus I love watching Max Rice and Tyson Dagenhart go
at it.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That have been buddies.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Forever, and Max Rice is like a He's literally like
a grown up playing with kids, not just in terms
of his age and his experience, but just the way
he carries himself being a coach's son of being around
it all this time. I mean, I tell you where
Wyoming's arena since it's been redone is awesome. I love
(05:49):
you know. I know that they need to redo it,
but movie is really cool in Colorado State. I mean,
they still have the hoops that come down from the
ceiling even on the sides, you know, leach your seating,
but they've.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Done a lot with a little and more than anything.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Like the arenas don't matter when they're full, they're full,
they're loud.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
They're really really cool. Who am I forgetting? I loller
blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Stan as the state No, uh Fresno got that thing
has just been disastrous since they went to the Save
Mart Center. It's too big, and obviously they're not great,
but it's just too big.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But those top teams.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Are outside of Nevada, which you know, it's a tough
place to play team that can really shoot older teams.
But in terms of the actual venues, basic amazing. And
now you have the teams to kind of match the venues,
and you got incredible crowd support.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And I'm not sure if it's the.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Success of Santa or state success of the league. The
fact that the league, well it's on TV, it's on
Fox Sports One, it's on ESPN, SUM, it's on CBS
WORTS Network. But it doesn't feel like TV has taken
away from those markets the way it has some programs,
you know, where every game being on TV kind of
(07:04):
diminishes it.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I don't know, they draw really well.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
It's a great league and it's finally getting kind of
its due, and you know, I don't think it has
a team that will win a national championship, but it
wouldn't stun me to see the mount and West have
a couple of teams in the second weekend, something that
struggle to do so, but there's a discussion there to
have six teams in probably get five, definitely get four.
(07:28):
But you know, Mike, go through the Pac twelve and
try and find me. Even a second team like Washington
State's a great story, but even a second team that
belongs in the field. So the mount West to me
is probably the second most competitive.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Conference at the top with NCAA tournament teams.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Like that's a lot.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's a big sentence, Doug, I get it. I mean, like, look,
do I think those teams are as good as frankly,
you know, even though the ACC is down like Duke
and killing no no, and they don't have the budget.
But the rest of the ACC was the kids say
(08:08):
they're mid, the kind of mid, kind of mid. But
then you have the Big twelve, which is a gauntlet.
Although should be pointed out, feels like Oklahoma's taking on
some water here.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
They gotta they got a big they got a week off.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
And they got a big win at Oklahoma State, a
game they probably should have lost at home. And Oklahoma
State's won I think three home games in a row
and now I don't won a road game. Feel with
some confidence, OU is the team that one team that
could slip on the bubble from the Big Twelve if
they're not careful. They had a very good non conference.
The problem is the teams that they beat in the
(08:43):
non conference, from Providence to Iowa to USC haven't had
particularly good years, so they don't look like as good
wins as they really were. Still the top of that league.
Houston probably gonna win the league. Kansas Tech, Baylor at BYU,
Just Baylor, they can really shoot the basketball. Oh holy
(09:03):
calculate when it's going in TCU And then you know,
you look at at a team like Oklahoma, I wondering
whether or not they'll they'll make the field, so kind
of similar there in the there was talk of nine
or ten Case State's not getting in. West Virginia's not
getting in Oklhan State's not getting in.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Cincinnati.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
I don't believe it's getting in, but we're kind of
working use Central Floor's not getting in.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
You know, then you got Texas sitting there. They'll get in,
but how dangerous are they?
Speaker 4 (09:33):
And Texas's scheduled because of the expectations because the name
of Texas kind of backload gonna be difficult. How fascinated
by the Big Twelve, to me, it goes Big twelve
to one, Mountain West two Mountain I did say Mountain
West too, and then you know, you got the Big
(09:54):
East at the top is very good. The Big Ted
has one team kind of a low at the top,
but and a second group which is solid fine. SEC
crazy talented, I mean talent wise, probably the best league
athletic talent. That's why they're beating up on each other.
We just saw Kentucky lose to LSU.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And then you know, like I love Tennessee.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
They've had some uneven performances like losing the South Carolina
at home, and then South Carolina's fought on hard times.
You got Alabama, Man, can they really score? They went
another game at home. SEC has a lot of talent
and somebody's because it's it's the richest conference and they
turn around and use that in NIL. It's got no
secret there. And then speaking of NIL, if you're listening
(10:42):
to this, you're probably a basketball guy or.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
A basketball woman. You're all welcome.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
We got to have a legit discussion about what this
offseason is going to look like. Because when the district
court judge struck down the NCAA's rule where you can't
limit second transfers for players.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
It's sent shockwaves in college basket.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Because now if you can transfer a second time.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Without penalty, when can't you transfer?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
And now with all the numbers being thrown around, whether
they're real or not, and you might.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Ask yourself, well, how are these numbers not real? I'll
tell you they calculate. Some schools will calculate the numbers.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
They almost all calculate cost of attendance, your pel grant
if you can qualify for one Alston money, which is
like I think sixty five dollars sixty five a year,
ten months right a year, and Alston money can be
determined by each school some form of academic achievement whatever.
(11:45):
And remarkably, all these guys get Ulston money. You know,
they're all eligible and they're all getting us money. And
then you know, there's some shady stuff done with cars
where people will calculate the value of the car that
they'll give you to drive.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
But it's not your car to key.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
I mean, you look, you're driving of fifty sixty seventy
eighty thousand.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Dollars cars, sometimes a little bit more than that.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
It's set your car, but that's all calculated into the
value of the package they're putting forward, even if you're
not keeping that car.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So what guys actually make I got no idea.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
But that's how it's kind of all put together. And
now you start to wonder, Okay, are we going to
have a record setting number of players in the portal
because they can transfer and they all think they're going
to get more money elsewhere, and maybe they are.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Maybe they're not.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
We live in absolutely crazy times and absolutely and I
do think the best thing you can do is hold
on your players. So it should be about retention and
you building these contracts, retention bonuses.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Question.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
I don't know the answers, And then let's let's discuss
the Caitlin Clark. I don't have animus towards Jay Williams.
I really don't. I know his ghostwrider for his book,
and his book was a kind of a passion project
of his for years, and I didn't think he went
through some writers and he said some fairly unflattering things
(13:15):
about me in the book. What's crazy about it is
like I always had a good relationship with jaywill and
even after the book or when the book came out,
you know, he send me notes how much, how badly
he wants to work with me, because we respect each
other and we have no problem going back and forth.
That said, he kind of stepped in it with the
(13:36):
Kaitlin Clark thing, and I actually agree with him if
his premise was Kaitlin Clark's not the greatest of all time.
But that's not what he said on the set of
Game Day. On the set of Game Day, he said,
I reserved great for people who win championships, which is
(13:57):
like straight out of the first Take book, right, and
there's no real playbook.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
They just but you watch, you assimilate, you learn.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
He's a bright guy.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
He he knows the drill and he's been on those
shows before.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
But he was also covering the NBA for a lot,
and it's a little bit more of an NBA mantra.
You know, if you're really the one of the all
time grades.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You gotta win a title.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
College sports is so different, you know, it just.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Is I understand, like if you stay four years and
your team doesn't win, like I think it's a legit discussion.
When Ben Simmons team didn't make the NCAA tournament, that's
a legit discussion, Like are you really any good If
you can't lead your team to the NCAA tournament, you're
at LSU and you have a really good roster, like
(14:43):
it's I think the answer is you clearly aren't a
winning player and don't know at that point time. On
the other hand, you know, Ben Simmons was a freshman.
He didn't know it, like freshmen don't know anything. But
we've seen another freshman coming and figure it out, and
Carmel Anthony win a national championship, had a lot of
help and played for a Hall of Fame coach. But nonetheless,
(15:05):
we've seen guys contribute more. In terms of Caitlyn Clark,
like we're not giving her a pass. I was fine.
They're a good team, you know, They've always been a
twenty five win team or twenty to twenty five win team.
They got the national championship game, they beat a way
more talented South Carolina team and lost to a ridiculously
(15:27):
more talented LSU team, like LSU is an all star team.
And then they went out and added Haley dan Lift
this year. So the first thing is times have changed
in that, especially in the women's game, even in college baseball,
Like LSU was so loaded last year.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
In college baseball. Noo is beating them.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
They were so loaded last year in women's basketball, and
he's beating them. And the only thing that can beat
them now is chemistry, issue, is complacency, et cetera. But
it's Caitlyn Clark the greatest women's basketball player of all time? No,
I'm okay not saying that, you know, but is she
great by any metric? The thing that was interesting was
(16:05):
he talked about doing things that are iconic and you know,
our generational will last. And I'm like, well, if you're
the all time scoring leader in women's basketball, Like.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Isn't that a historic achievement?
Speaker 4 (16:21):
So I think where Jaywill made a mistake, I'm gonna
give him a little bit of a pass yere is
he was talking about greatest of all time and he
won to pump the brakes if he was talking about
just being a great player at all time great in
women's college basketball at Katon Clark.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
This isn't the University.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Of Detroit where you have a guy play with three
point shots and play a couple of years longer than
Pete Marivich and still not able to break the record
and have to buy games in the CBI in order
to do that.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
That's what happened last year.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
No, this is the woman who's in her fourth year
in college basketball, and she's been helped out with a
three point shop. But so Kelsey Plumb played during the
three point era and in season like she didn't even
have to in less games. She's the all time scoring
leader of women's college basketball. And when she leave the
country and assists and they win. They went to the
(17:17):
national championship game last year. So by any metrics, she's great.
Is she the greatest of all time? That subjective, I'd
probably agree, you know, with Brianna Stewart. She won four
national titles, but she played with a loaded team.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And I don't know.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I'm old enough to remember Cheryl Miller, ham Woodard the
other all time greats. But I'm not necessarily a great
judge because I haven't watched women's college basketball. I have
watched recently because I like watching Caitlyn Clark play. I
like the way that team passes the ball. I love
the fact that she's basically a check version of Steph Curry. Right,
(18:00):
she's like Sabrina and Escue captured some people's attention, but
Kaitlin Clark has captured everybody's tach Why well, because she
did it last year in the Final four, which is
something that great players do. So I if he meant
greatest of all time, he actually has a friendly place here.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
For me to give him a pass.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
If he mentioned if he means just being great, be
honest them and nobody agrees to you.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Let's get to Josh Lucas. Here's part two, an all ball.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
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listen live.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
You're at Harvard, you graduate, What was what was next?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
What was the plan?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So?
Speaker 7 (18:55):
When I finished school, I went through the normal rigors
of investment, banking interviews, consulting interviews, kind of the mainstream
what most Harvard kids do when they're done. And never
in my life, Dougia, I felt more of an imposter,
(19:16):
more of a fraud putting on those suits, sitting through
those interviews, I had zero interest in the banking world
and in finance. My ambitions and goals were, you know,
We're never I'm going to be this super you know,
financially successful person, and and I think part of it
(19:38):
was I was scared too. Could I handle this? Could
I the way I feel physically and mentally? Could I
go to New York City and really work as an
investment banking analyst the hours and the stress and the competition.
And I looked. I looked for an easier software way.
I really did. I thought maybe if I could get
into sports, something that comes more natural to me, something
(20:01):
I was more passionate about, it would be an easier
fit for me. And so I spent just as much
time sending resumes out to NFL football teams. I sent
some stuff out to Major League Baseball teams and basketball
teams as well. Football was really where I focused, and
I was very fortunate to get to get a six
(20:22):
week internship in Jacksonville with the Jacksonville Jaguars the summer
that I graduated. No guarantees that it was going to
turn into anything, just six weeks, come down here. It's
basically a football ops intern and after that you're done.
And I had some buddies that lived in Jacksonville Beach,
so I said, hey, you know, I'll go down there
(20:43):
for six weeks and then I'll just go, you know,
hang out with them until I figure out what's next.
And I was very fortunate. At the end of that
six weeks they asked me to stay for the entire season,
and so I got to be a football ops intern
for the entire season in Jacksonville. This is my first
year out of college years. This is this is two
(21:05):
thousand and two, Tom Coughlin's last year in Jacksonville. I
was the horn boy at practice. I stood next to
Tom Coughlin and would blow the horn between each period.
And you don't mess up the horn with Tom Coughlin.
So I was would walk around paranoid and scared to
death for two hours every day making sure I didn't
mess up the horn.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Well, okay, so what was specific horn instructions? Was there
a length of time that the horn was supposed to
be be pressed for just a.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
Short you know, one second blow as soon as the
period's over and you move them to the next period.
Can't be any simpler, hard to mess up. But every day,
two hours of practice, lots of periods. You know, there
was probably i'd say two to three times you know
during the year where I got the look and I
got the stare and got a few choice words said
(21:55):
to me. But for the most part, I think I
handled it well.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
What what was he like?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I know?
Speaker 6 (22:00):
That was the end of that.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
And then he came back obviously with the with the Giants,
and they had great success early on with the Jags,
right going to the AFC Championship game. But he's always
been seen as a disciplinarian. That was that was always
like his m O. The weird part about it was,
I remember his last couple of years with the Giants,
They're like the most penalized team in the league.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
So it's like, well, is he what's he really like?
Speaker 7 (22:24):
So just one year obviously my first exposure to the NFL,
so you know, I don't know shit, I don't know
anything what I'm what I'm seeing, if this is normal
or not. If he felt very military, very general ish,
you know, not very approachable. Was the way I always
(22:46):
you know, kind of sought it, you know, when I
was around him, like speak when spoken to. You know,
there was coaches on that staff where I felt I
could slide into their office and have a you know,
have a real converce station and shoot the ship. But
obviously I was never going to do that with the
head coach. So then what So that was the entire
(23:10):
you know, my first year out of college, and that
ended in around March. They fired the head coach, they
fired the personnel people. They kind of kept me around
to be the caddy to drive everybody around and to
make sure everyone got where they needed and then they
kind of let me know, Okay, you're done, your time's up.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
What did what By the way, what did you make
that year in Jackson?
Speaker 5 (23:36):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (23:36):
That's I got a free rental car and they paid
me five hundred dollars a week. I remember that.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
You had to be the lowest er to come out
of Harvard in two thousand and two, Like right, you know,
like average salaries.
Speaker 7 (23:50):
You're like, oh, man, like let's.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
Get out the highest and the lowest.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Let's let's get out Lucas because that that guy, he's
just killing us.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
I had I had had a rental car because they
needed me to drive all the players around, you know,
to the physicals and to the workouts. And I was
staying basically for free on the beach with some friends,
making five hundred bucks a week. Honestly, I thought I
was rich. I thought I was killing it. But then
that ended, you know that that soon ended, and I
(24:20):
was down the beach doing the same deal. All thirty
one teams trying to get in did not get in.
After the draft, you know, after that year, and Jacksonville
was getting ready to host the first Super Bowl in
the franchise's history, super Bowl thirty nine. It was Philadelphia
(24:42):
and New England, and they were going to work on
basically a project to help raise funds for the improvements
that needed to be done to the stadium in order
to host the Super Bowl. So part of this project
was packaging Super Bowl tickets hotel rooms and parties, selling
(25:02):
them to these companies and wealthy individuals. And the money
they raised would help, you know, all set the cost
to the capital improvements to the stadium. And they needed workers.
And they asked me if i'd be interested in doing that,
and they said, hey, it'll keep you in the building.
You're not going to be doing anything with football. You're
going to be managing hotel rooms and guest lists and
(25:23):
party lists and doing ops work. And I said, hell, yeah,
you know, if it keeps me in the building, I'll
do it. And so that's what I ended up doing
for really the next year and a half. During that time,
they let me intern during the summertime in the football
person in the player personnel, So I got to meet
some scouts, got to meet some people that are decision makers,
(25:44):
and it helped bridge me to eventually my first full
time job. But yeah, those last two years in Jacksonville,
it was nothing to do with football. It was all
just yeah, it was It was about a year and
a half, you know, until until they hosted that Super Bowl.
And so do you want to talk about not making
(26:05):
a lot of money that that that year and a half,
you know, because I didn't have the car, I had
to get an apartment pay rent. So then that's when
I was really feeling more squeezed. But honestly, I felt
I was on the right track because I was still
involved and I was close, and even though I was
(26:27):
on the perimeter, I had I had some feeling that, hey,
this is going to lead to a job at some point.
Speaker 6 (26:36):
Okay, so how did you get was New Orleans is next?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Right?
Speaker 7 (26:40):
So after that job, that Super Bowl got played, So
that had been Super Bowl thirty nine and so obviously
the games played in early February, we kind of wrapped
up our duties and in probably the March, and I
just waited for the draft because I knew the hiring
and firing season for scouts was after the draft, and
(27:01):
after the draft, probably two or three weeks, same deal.
Nothing like, lots of phone calls, lots of maybes. I
just wanted to be a scouting assistant and get in somewhere.
And it came down doug till to like second third
week in May, where I was starting to call some
of my Harvard connections to say, Hey, maybe maybe banking
(27:24):
doesn't sound so bad, or maybe consulting might be a
good idea for me, because I knew at some point
I had to like really start making money. I remember,
I remember it to this day, sitting in my apartment
getting on Pro Football Talk and reading that the New
Orleans Saints had just lost a bunch of scouts they
had left on their own, and the director of college
(27:49):
scouting in New Orleans was a personnel director in Jacksonville
when I was in Jacksonville for three years. His name's
Rick right BSh, and so I had at least one
person I could call. I found out through a bunch
of people that they were going to bring in a
(28:10):
bunch of young guys to interview. They were going to
hire a couple of scouting assistants and a couple scouts,
and I just remember like if this is if I
don't get this, this is it, Like this is I'm done,
Like I got to go find something else. And New
Orleans flew me out and they hired me as a
scouting assistant. In two thousand and five, I moved to
(28:31):
New Orleans and in July of two thousand and five
was there for ten days and the Hurricane Katrina hit.
So that was my that was my welcome to New Orleans,
New Orleans, Jorans experience.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
So where were you?
Speaker 7 (28:44):
So I was? I evacuated with the team. We evacuated
to out s San Jose, California because we were playing
our final preseason game against Oakland on a Thursday, So
we evacuated out on Sunday or Monday before the store hit.
We spent you know, a good week out in California,
(29:05):
and then we relocated to San Antonio and spent the
entire season out in San Antonio. And that was that
was that was an experience, you know, practicing on high
school baseball fields. The team was a mess as you
can imagine, you know, it was it was the final
year of coach Haslet and the Aaron Brooks. There was
a lot of talent, but you could just imagine like
(29:28):
the dysfunction and how hard it is to keep a
team together amidst relocating to a different city. Like in
the middle of the season, you know, during the season,
we won our first game of the season at Carolina,
and I remember thinking it was going to be this special,
magical year, and we finished three and thirteen.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Much better, just you.
Speaker 7 (29:55):
Know, transitioning from Aaron to to Drew Brees in consecutive years, commitment,
putting in the time, physically had all the ability in
the world. I was just there for one year and
it was a bad year. So it's it's probably not
you know, I'm probably not a great person to speak
on it. And just from what I saw, it was
just so loose. I just saw a lot of guys
(30:19):
that were just kind of checked out, just to be
honest with you, and I felt, you know, he he
kind of was on that side. So that that's kind
of all I saw. Aaron Brooks, you know, and and
I he had some you know, good years in the
league and took that team to the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
So yeah, that was like their first playoff appearance. Okay,
so but when the coach gets fired, you gotta be like,
all right, I am, I gonna go have to pay
another job.
Speaker 7 (30:46):
I wasn't too concerned. I had felt that I had gotten,
you know, gotten to know all the guys really well.
In the personnel department. It was a young staff Mickey Loomis,
who's still the GM, and knew Orleans was the GM.
And as soon as I knew he, you know, he
was the person that was going to be hiring the
next head coach. You know, I felt, I thought, okay,
(31:09):
as far as having some stability in New Orleans, I
thought I had made a good impression that year. And
you know, throughout all this time, I was still I
still felt these people that I knew I needed to
ask for help. And that's the gist of the whole,
(31:29):
the whole, the whole time I was at Harvard, the
whole time I was in Jacksonville, the beginning of my
New Orleans experience, I knew the way I felt on
a day to day basis was not healthy and not
allowing me to be my best. I was so terrified
to ask somebody for help because I didn't want him
(31:50):
to think I was defective, you know. I wanted to
be known as the bright Harvard young scout that had
this upward track, you know.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
And so you say, don't you don't feel right? Like,
what if you can give me a appeal back to layer.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
Obsessive, NonStop frightening thoughts, constantly worrying, oh, you name it,
anything that would. I could read a current event, you know,
the you know, climate, climate change and the hurricanes going on.
I could read a story in the newspaper and it
(32:27):
would sit in my mind for weeks and and paralyze me,
and and it made it very difficult to do my
work physically. I felt extremely tight and uncomfortable. I got
to the point early on in my career in New
Orleans as a scouting assistant and as a as an
area scout where I'd wake up in the morning kind
of scared that, you know, can I get through this
(32:49):
day and do all this work? Just just just the
watching all the film, all the typing like can I
handle this? And then once that fear sets in, and
now you're just in this constant neurosis and worrying about
home all the time, worrying about my dad, worrying about
my brother. I can't explain it any other way, Doug
(33:11):
than it was NonStop, and and I really knew that
at some point I was gonna need to find a
way to change things, because there's no way I'm going
to be able to continue to live like this. And
and I think anyone around me, you know, I I
just did a really good job of of of portraying
(33:32):
that I was okay, that I was doing okay, and
that that things were all right. And as long as
I had a job in the NFL, and I was,
I was employed, and and you know, people thought that
was really cool and that I was doing okay. That
that's just how I existed and survived for several years.
Speaker 6 (33:51):
So when when did you medicate yourself?
Speaker 7 (33:56):
So I I mental health brought me to my knees
when I was thirty one years old. That's probably how
I Probably we won the Super Bowl in two thousand
and nine. The very next year. What would happen, Doug,
is every summer we'd get these three months off and
I would make all these changes and convince myself this
(34:18):
next year, I'm going to feel better mentally and physically.
I would acupuncture, new massage, new trainer, new dial whatever
I could read that could help me feel better mentally
and physically, I would try it. And that's what I
would be obsessed with. And I remember, same pattern, same routine.
(34:38):
I get on the road. It's my very first week
on the road. I'm thirty years old, I'm in Oklahoma,
and I have to drive out to West Texas to
this is on school calls, you know, in August, so
training camp for college football. And I remember being on
that drive out to West Texas and feeling that same
(34:59):
pain again in my in my lower back, in my hip,
same racing thoughts in my head, over and over again.
This is like day one. And I had my first
real full panic attack when I was at West Texas
University the very next day. I remember interviewing a coach
asking him about one of the players, very standard interview,
(35:24):
and I remember he was talking and all I could
see his face was his mouth moving, but I couldn't
hear anything. I couldn't hear what he was saying. I
couldn't make out what he was saying. And I knew
the trainer at West Texas really nit wherell Seth and
I went downstairs and I told him, I said, hey,
I don't I don't feel right. Something's going on. They tested,
(35:44):
but they took me to like the actual nurse's office.
They tested my blood pressure, they gave me like a
granola bardi blah blah blah, and you know, I went
out to the practice field and and didn't feel right
at all, but told him I was okay off and
I end up leaving and I drove from West Texas
to Lubbock, and as soon as I got to Lubbock, Texas,
(36:07):
I drove straight to the hospital. I checked myself in
and said, I don't know what's wrong with me, but
I can't go another day living like this. I don't
know if it's my heart, I don't know what it is.
And they thought I might be having like some kind
of heart condition, so they rushed me to the back
and I spent eight hours in that emergency room that night,
and I probably know more than that. I was probably
(36:28):
ten or twelve, and went through a battery of tests,
all kinds of tests, and doctor came to my bed
at two am in the morning and he looked at
me and he said, I got good news and I
got bad news. And he said, the good news is
you're perfectly healthy. He's like, the bad news is you
need a lot of help. You need somebody to talk
to you because there's a lot of stuff that is
(36:49):
causing this stress and anxiety. As anybody ever told you
about the anxiety. And I said, no, I've always felt
like this. I just I've gotten to the point where
I can't deal with it anymore. And that doctor looked
at me and said, you need to call the New
Orleans Saints and tell him you're gonna need, you know,
four to six weeks off of work. This is what
I'm recommending for.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
You.
Speaker 7 (37:10):
Go back to Dallas because that's where my home base was.
Find a doctor and find a therapist. And you need
to get this under wraps because it's just going to
get worse if you don't start talking and you don't
start getting some therapy. And he said, I'm going to
give you two prescriptions, and this is just for these
(37:30):
next four to six weeks. This is just a crutch
until you get the help that you need. And he
gave me a prescription of kalanapin for my anxiety. And
he gave me a prescription of Norco for all the
pain that I was having in my low back and
my hip when I was driving and never had taken
klonopin before. Obviously I had exposure to pain pills in
(37:52):
the past. And he told me, when I go back
to the hotel, drive back to Dallas, when you wake
up and and start getting some help. And I drove
to the hotel, got the prescriptions filled in the morning,
took a kalanapin, and took the Norco within thirty minutes.
(38:14):
Never felt better in my life. Drove to Lubbock, did
the school call, worked for eight hours, felt amazing. Drove
back to Dallas. Didn't say a word to anybody at
the Saints, didn't look for help. I just looked for
a doctor that would prescribe me that medication. And for
(38:34):
the next eighteen months I've it was the most clear,
the most the most serene, the most peaceful I'd ever felt.
I was very open to people about what I had
found and these are the medications I was taking, and
this has really helped me. To my wife, to my dad,
to the people you know that worked close to me.
(38:56):
I didn't hide anything from anyone, and I was a
the impression that I was cured, that my issues and
all this stress and all this anxiety was done. And
for the next next eighteen months it was you know,
I got promoted at work. I remember thinking like, all
these things that were holding me back in my life
(39:18):
are now over. And then it got to this point
where what they were prescribing wasn't meeting like the way
I needed to feel every day. And I went into
the doctor's office and I talked to the doctor in
Dallas and said, you know, hey, I need more like
it's not I don't feel the same as I did
when I first started taking it, and and she she
(39:40):
was like, no, you need to start taking less. And
this is where kind of for me. I, instead of
really bearing down and reaching out for help, I went
off on my own and I started buying, you know,
prescription paint pills on the street.
Speaker 6 (39:58):
And how how do you do it?
Speaker 7 (40:00):
Just through friends? Through you know, talking to people at
the gym, We like.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
How like, I mean, I've been I've been to one
hundred gyms. No one's ever gone like a man like,
how do you how do you know somebody might be
the hook up?
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (40:15):
I mean the very first person I bought them from.
You know, was someone that was in Dallas that we
talked about it openly, you know, at the gym, because
I used obviously was using the Norcoe for for several
months prior to ever, like really buying them legally or
like buying them off the street. I had some friends
(40:36):
that in Jacksonville that I knew used them. You know,
I knew enough people that that had connection to them,
and and that's when I started buying them. And that's
when my life really started to take a turn for
the worse.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And like what.
Speaker 7 (40:52):
You know I was. I was a functioning addict, you know,
from thirty one years old until May of twenty seventeen,
you know, for about seven eight years there where my
life became how do I make sure I have enough
(41:15):
medication to function through the dame? And that's all my
life was. I isolated, I separated from all my friends.
You know, I was married, and obviously you know, she
knew something was up. I hit her. I hit it
from her house. Serious it was, And that's what my
(41:37):
life became. Just a survival mode, like making sure I
have enough medication to feel okay and make sure I
can get my job done. That was the bottom line,
Like I disassociated from a lot of friends and through
all this, you know, was a promotion to become the
personnel director with the Bears.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
All right, that's it for Josh lucas Part two. We'll
drop part three very very soon. I remind you can
listen to the Doug gottlib Show three to five Eastern.
We also have an hour pod on that. So just
happened Doug Gottlieb. And if you like this stuff, if
you like this content, there's a lot more of it.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is Zubble.
Hey, what welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm jug Gottlieb.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Oball and oh ball is your home.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
A great storytelling and some opinions on all things well
basketball but also just stick of all sports. We continue
with Josh Lucas is our part two with the former
director of player personnel with Chicago Bears, and in part
one we talked about his turbulent past as a kid
(00:32):
grown up in Ohio. Took him to Harvard where he
played football but for a very short period of time
because his body kind of failed him, and he eventually
found his way to Jacksonville and the NFL. That's kind
of where we left off and his story starts to
take a little bit of a turn.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
But before we get to Josh, let's kind of recap
some wild times in college basket in terms of the
actual teams. I think about the week we've had already.
Now you go back on the weekend with Purdue losing,
and during the week Yukon gets not beaten but blown
(01:13):
out by great by Guy cash Worth splash Worth.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Steven Ashworth. It's three after three and the Blue.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Jays show themselves to be at least partially the team
that so many of us expected them to be when
the preseason rankings came out.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And some of this is about, you.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Know, styles, make the fight, and you're at home and
you're able to set the tempo and you're able to
kind of play your game. Some of it is, hey,
look they got an older veteran team and when they're
started hitting shots and they're playing their game, And some
of it is YUKHN didn't play well, didn't react well
to the university, and they've been playing at a magic level.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Right.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
It's hard for a college kid to get done beating
you know, Marquette, who they think they have to beat
in order to win their league. And now you go
to Creighton, who's been a little bit disappointing, and get
up to that same level, especially playing on the road.
So there's a lot of college basketball stuff to get to, right.
Purdue Yukon losing both of the road but losing a
(02:18):
lot of the turbulence with transfer portal and NIL coaches
speaking out about it, whether it's Rick Pictino talking about
his team, which he since apologized for, you kind of
name you go through, Mike Boyton talking about where Oklahoma
State sits with NIL in the Big Twelve, and it's
(02:39):
led to struggles in recruiting.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Coaches kind of.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Speaking out and calling out and pointing out that their
teams might not be as good as advertised. Has it
necessarily landed well with a lot of fans, But there's
also very few, if any lies that are told. And
so maybe it's like a pr list. We'll circle back,
we'll get to that. So in college basketball you got
(03:07):
just some craziness with the ups and downs, the ebbs
and flows, wins, the losses. You have the coaches trying
to figure out the new world order, and there's been
varying degrees of success b throughout the season or as
the season goes on. Younger teams are getting better. I
mentioned Oklahoma State. They just beat Cincinnati for their first
(03:29):
road win of the year UCLA, although they lost to
Utah at home. A blind man can see that mccronning
with his young crew, they're starting to figure it out,
as opposed to a team like in Indiana, which has
just been a complete thud. So you got all different
types of teams, different types of spending. In terms of nil,
(03:51):
you have some incredible stories. Let's first give a little
respect to the Mountain West. Backing up Sandyo State playing
for a national championship. With the type of year they're having,
where you could very I don't want to say easily,
but you could definitely see six teams getting into the
NCAA Tournament's true. Sixteen boys started out a little slow
(04:13):
this year, but man, they've come on strong. Utah State's
been the surprise of the league. We know what santi
of the State brings to the table. They'll make the
tournament where you see them, that's going to be hard.
You got Colorado State, which of course start out with
such a great start, then Hit'll Ull just lost to
New Mexico in a great game, speaking of New Mexican
(04:34):
and Mexico, and then you get Nevada.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I mean, incredible league.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
And the other cool part about the league so many
of the games played in altitude, makes road games even harder,
but also amazing places to go to games. You know,
BAHAs is no longer new, it's twenty five years old,
but still really cool.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
The pit.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
To me is one of the iconic spots in all
of college basketball. Dee Glenn's Spectrum Events Center just called
the Spectrum to the folks and logan at Utah State
awesome place and kind of finally getting it's due with
Stu Morrell in his name on the court. You know,
Boise State's not like special as an arena, but as
(05:18):
a city, it's like the coolest city you'll never visit.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And they're really good.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Plus I love watching Max Rice and Tyson Dagenhart go
at it.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That have been buddies.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Forever, and Max Rice is like a He's literally like
a grown up playing with kids, not just in terms
of his age and his experience, but just the way
he carries himself being a coach's son of being around
it all this time. I mean, I tell you where
Wyoming's arena since it's been redone is awesome. I love
(05:49):
you know. I know that they need to redo it,
but movie is really cool in Colorado State. I mean,
they still have the hoops that come down from the
ceiling even on the sides, you know, leach your seating,
but they've.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Done a lot with a little and more than anything.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Like the arenas don't matter when they're full, they're full,
they're loud.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
They're really really cool. Who am I forgetting? I loller
blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Stan as the state No, uh Fresno got that thing
has just been disastrous since they went to the Save
Mart Center. It's too big, and obviously they're not great,
but it's just too big.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But those top teams.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Are outside of Nevada, which you know, it's a tough
place to play team that can really shoot older teams.
But in terms of the actual venues, basic amazing. And
now you have the teams to kind of match the venues,
and you got incredible crowd support.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And I'm not sure if it's the.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Success of Santa or state success of the league. The
fact that the league, well it's on TV, it's on
Fox Sports One, it's on ESPN, SUM, it's on CBS
WORTS Network. But it doesn't feel like TV has taken
away from those markets the way it has some programs,
you know, where every game being on TV kind of
(07:04):
diminishes it.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I don't know, they draw really well.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
It's a great league and it's finally getting kind of
its due, and you know, I don't think it has
a team that will win a national championship, but it
wouldn't stun me to see the mount and West have
a couple of teams in the second weekend, something that
struggle to do so, but there's a discussion there to
have six teams in probably get five, definitely get four.
(07:28):
But you know, Mike, go through the Pac twelve and
try and find me. Even a second team like Washington
State's a great story, but even a second team that
belongs in the field. So the mount West to me
is probably the second most competitive.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Conference at the top with NCAA tournament teams.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Like that's a lot.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's a big sentence, Doug, I get it. I mean, like, look,
do I think those teams are as good as frankly,
you know, even though the ACC is down like Duke
and killing no no, and they don't have the budget.
But the rest of the ACC was the kids say
(08:08):
they're mid, the kind of mid, kind of mid. But
then you have the Big twelve, which is a gauntlet.
Although should be pointed out, feels like Oklahoma's taking on
some water here.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
They gotta they got a big they got a week off.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
And they got a big win at Oklahoma State, a
game they probably should have lost at home. And Oklahoma
State's won I think three home games in a row
and now I don't won a road game. Feel with
some confidence, OU is the team that one team that
could slip on the bubble from the Big Twelve if
they're not careful. They had a very good non conference.
The problem is the teams that they beat in the
(08:43):
non conference, from Providence to Iowa to USC haven't had
particularly good years, so they don't look like as good
wins as they really were. Still the top of that league.
Houston probably gonna win the league. Kansas Tech, Baylor at BYU,
Just Baylor, they can really shoot the basketball. Oh holy
(09:03):
calculate when it's going in TCU And then you know,
you look at at a team like Oklahoma, I wondering
whether or not they'll they'll make the field, so kind
of similar there in the there was talk of nine
or ten Case State's not getting in. West Virginia's not
getting in Oklhan State's not getting in.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Cincinnati.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
I don't believe it's getting in, but we're kind of
working use Central Floor's not getting in.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
You know, then you got Texas sitting there. They'll get in,
but how dangerous are they?
Speaker 4 (09:33):
And Texas's scheduled because of the expectations because the name
of Texas kind of backload gonna be difficult. How fascinated
by the Big Twelve, to me, it goes Big twelve
to one, Mountain West two Mountain I did say Mountain
West too, and then you know, you got the Big
(09:54):
East at the top is very good. The Big Ted
has one team kind of a low at the top,
but and a second group which is solid fine. SEC
crazy talented, I mean talent wise, probably the best league
athletic talent. That's why they're beating up on each other.
We just saw Kentucky lose to LSU.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And then you know, like I love Tennessee.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
They've had some uneven performances like losing the South Carolina
at home, and then South Carolina's fought on hard times.
You got Alabama, Man, can they really score? They went
another game at home. SEC has a lot of talent
and somebody's because it's it's the richest conference and they
turn around and use that in NIL. It's got no
secret there. And then speaking of NIL, if you're listening
(10:42):
to this, you're probably a basketball guy or.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
A basketball woman. You're all welcome.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
We got to have a legit discussion about what this
offseason is going to look like. Because when the district
court judge struck down the NCAA's rule where you can't
limit second transfers for players.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
It's sent shockwaves in college basket.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Because now if you can transfer a second time.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Without penalty, when can't you transfer?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
And now with all the numbers being thrown around, whether
they're real or not, and you might.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Ask yourself, well, how are these numbers not real? I'll
tell you they calculate. Some schools will calculate the numbers.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
They almost all calculate cost of attendance, your pel grant
if you can qualify for one Alston money, which is
like I think sixty five dollars sixty five a year,
ten months right a year, and Alston money can be
determined by each school some form of academic achievement whatever.
(11:45):
And remarkably, all these guys get Ulston money. You know,
they're all eligible and they're all getting us money. And
then you know, there's some shady stuff done with cars
where people will calculate the value of the car that
they'll give you to drive.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
But it's not your car to key.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
I mean, you look, you're driving of fifty sixty seventy
eighty thousand.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Dollars cars, sometimes a little bit more than that.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
It's set your car, but that's all calculated into the
value of the package they're putting forward, even if you're
not keeping that car.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So what guys actually make I got no idea.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
But that's how it's kind of all put together. And
now you start to wonder, Okay, are we going to
have a record setting number of players in the portal
because they can transfer and they all think they're going
to get more money elsewhere, and maybe they are.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Maybe they're not.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
We live in absolutely crazy times and absolutely and I
do think the best thing you can do is hold
on your players. So it should be about retention and
you building these contracts, retention bonuses.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Question.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
I don't know the answers, And then let's let's discuss
the Caitlin Clark. I don't have animus towards Jay Williams.
I really don't. I know his ghostwrider for his book,
and his book was a kind of a passion project
of his for years, and I didn't think he went
through some writers and he said some fairly unflattering things
(13:15):
about me in the book. What's crazy about it is
like I always had a good relationship with jaywill and
even after the book or when the book came out,
you know, he send me notes how much, how badly
he wants to work with me, because we respect each
other and we have no problem going back and forth.
That said, he kind of stepped in it with the
(13:36):
Kaitlin Clark thing, and I actually agree with him if
his premise was Kaitlin Clark's not the greatest of all time.
But that's not what he said on the set of
Game Day. On the set of Game Day, he said,
I reserved great for people who win championships, which is
(13:57):
like straight out of the first Take book, right, and
there's no real playbook.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
They just but you watch, you assimilate, you learn.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
He's a bright guy.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
He he knows the drill and he's been on those
shows before.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
But he was also covering the NBA for a lot,
and it's a little bit more of an NBA mantra.
You know, if you're really the one of the all
time grades.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You gotta win a title.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
College sports is so different, you know, it just.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Is I understand, like if you stay four years and
your team doesn't win, like I think it's a legit discussion.
When Ben Simmons team didn't make the NCAA tournament, that's
a legit discussion, Like are you really any good If
you can't lead your team to the NCAA tournament, you're
at LSU and you have a really good roster, like
(14:43):
it's I think the answer is you clearly aren't a
winning player and don't know at that point time. On
the other hand, you know, Ben Simmons was a freshman.
He didn't know it, like freshmen don't know anything. But
we've seen another freshman coming and figure it out, and
Carmel Anthony win a national championship, had a lot of
help and played for a Hall of Fame coach. But nonetheless,
(15:05):
we've seen guys contribute more. In terms of Caitlyn Clark,
like we're not giving her a pass. I was fine.
They're a good team, you know, They've always been a
twenty five win team or twenty to twenty five win team.
They got the national championship game, they beat a way
more talented South Carolina team and lost to a ridiculously
(15:27):
more talented LSU team, like LSU is an all star team.
And then they went out and added Haley dan Lift
this year. So the first thing is times have changed
in that, especially in the women's game, even in college baseball,
Like LSU was so loaded last year.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
In college baseball. Noo is beating them.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
They were so loaded last year in women's basketball, and
he's beating them. And the only thing that can beat
them now is chemistry, issue, is complacency, et cetera. But
it's Caitlyn Clark the greatest women's basketball player of all time? No,
I'm okay not saying that, you know, but is she
great by any metric? The thing that was interesting was
(16:05):
he talked about doing things that are iconic and you know,
our generational will last. And I'm like, well, if you're
the all time scoring leader in women's basketball, Like.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Isn't that a historic achievement?
Speaker 4 (16:21):
So I think where Jaywill made a mistake, I'm gonna
give him a little bit of a pass yere is
he was talking about greatest of all time and he
won to pump the brakes if he was talking about
just being a great player at all time great in
women's college basketball at Katon Clark.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
This isn't the University.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Of Detroit where you have a guy play with three
point shots and play a couple of years longer than
Pete Marivich and still not able to break the record
and have to buy games in the CBI in order
to do that.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
That's what happened last year.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
No, this is the woman who's in her fourth year
in college basketball, and she's been helped out with a
three point shop. But so Kelsey Plumb played during the
three point era and in season like she didn't even
have to in less games. She's the all time scoring
leader of women's college basketball. And when she leave the
country and assists and they win. They went to the
(17:17):
national championship game last year. So by any metrics, she's great.
Is she the greatest of all time? That subjective, I'd
probably agree, you know, with Brianna Stewart. She won four
national titles, but she played with a loaded team.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And I don't know.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I'm old enough to remember Cheryl Miller, ham Woodard the
other all time greats. But I'm not necessarily a great
judge because I haven't watched women's college basketball. I have
watched recently because I like watching Caitlyn Clark play. I
like the way that team passes the ball. I love
the fact that she's basically a check version of Steph Curry. Right,
(18:00):
she's like Sabrina and Escue captured some people's attention, but
Kaitlin Clark has captured everybody's tach Why well, because she
did it last year in the Final four, which is
something that great players do. So I if he meant
greatest of all time, he actually has a friendly place here.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
For me to give him a pass.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
If he mentioned if he means just being great, be
honest them and nobody agrees to you.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Let's get to Josh Lucas. Here's part two, an all ball.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports Radio
dot com and within the iHeartRadio app search FSR to
listen live.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
You're at Harvard, you graduate, What was what was next?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
What was the plan?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
So?
Speaker 7 (18:55):
When I finished school, I went through the normal rigors
of investment, banking interviews, consulting interviews, kind of the mainstream
what most Harvard kids do when they're done. And never
in my life, Dougia, I felt more of an imposter,
(19:16):
more of a fraud putting on those suits, sitting through
those interviews, I had zero interest in the banking world
and in finance. My ambitions and goals were, you know,
We're never I'm going to be this super you know,
financially successful person, and and I think part of it
(19:38):
was I was scared too. Could I handle this? Could
I the way I feel physically and mentally? Could I
go to New York City and really work as an
investment banking analyst the hours and the stress and the competition.
And I looked. I looked for an easier software way.
I really did. I thought maybe if I could get
into sports, something that comes more natural to me, something
(20:01):
I was more passionate about, it would be an easier
fit for me. And so I spent just as much
time sending resumes out to NFL football teams. I sent
some stuff out to Major League Baseball teams and basketball
teams as well. Football was really where I focused, and
I was very fortunate to get to get a six
(20:22):
week internship in Jacksonville with the Jacksonville Jaguars the summer
that I graduated. No guarantees that it was going to
turn into anything, just six weeks, come down here. It's
basically a football ops intern and after that you're done.
And I had some buddies that lived in Jacksonville Beach,
so I said, hey, you know, I'll go down there
(20:43):
for six weeks and then I'll just go, you know,
hang out with them until I figure out what's next.
And I was very fortunate. At the end of that
six weeks they asked me to stay for the entire season,
and so I got to be a football ops intern
for the entire season in Jacksonville. This is my first
year out of college years. This is this is two
(21:05):
thousand and two, Tom Coughlin's last year in Jacksonville. I
was the horn boy at practice. I stood next to
Tom Coughlin and would blow the horn between each period.
And you don't mess up the horn with Tom Coughlin.
So I was would walk around paranoid and scared to
death for two hours every day making sure I didn't
mess up the horn.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Well, okay, so what was specific horn instructions? Was there
a length of time that the horn was supposed to
be be pressed for just a.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
Short you know, one second blow as soon as the
period's over and you move them to the next period.
Can't be any simpler, hard to mess up. But every day,
two hours of practice, lots of periods. You know, there
was probably i'd say two to three times you know
during the year where I got the look and I
got the stare and got a few choice words said
(21:55):
to me. But for the most part, I think I
handled it well.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
What what was he like?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I know?
Speaker 6 (22:00):
That was the end of that.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
And then he came back obviously with the with the Giants,
and they had great success early on with the Jags,
right going to the AFC Championship game. But he's always
been seen as a disciplinarian. That was that was always
like his m O. The weird part about it was,
I remember his last couple of years with the Giants,
They're like the most penalized team in the league.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
So it's like, well, is he what's he really like?
Speaker 7 (22:24):
So just one year obviously my first exposure to the NFL,
so you know, I don't know shit, I don't know
anything what I'm what I'm seeing, if this is normal
or not. If he felt very military, very general ish,
you know, not very approachable. Was the way I always
(22:46):
you know, kind of sought it, you know, when I
was around him, like speak when spoken to. You know,
there was coaches on that staff where I felt I
could slide into their office and have a you know,
have a real converce station and shoot the ship. But
obviously I was never going to do that with the
head coach. So then what So that was the entire
(23:10):
you know, my first year out of college, and that
ended in around March. They fired the head coach, they
fired the personnel people. They kind of kept me around
to be the caddy to drive everybody around and to
make sure everyone got where they needed and then they
kind of let me know, Okay, you're done, your time's up.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
What did what By the way, what did you make
that year in Jackson?
Speaker 5 (23:36):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (23:36):
That's I got a free rental car and they paid
me five hundred dollars a week. I remember that.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
You had to be the lowest er to come out
of Harvard in two thousand and two, Like right, you know,
like average salaries.
Speaker 7 (23:50):
You're like, oh, man, like let's.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
Get out the highest and the lowest.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Let's let's get out Lucas because that that guy, he's
just killing us.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
I had I had had a rental car because they
needed me to drive all the players around, you know,
to the physicals and to the workouts. And I was
staying basically for free on the beach with some friends,
making five hundred bucks a week. Honestly, I thought I
was rich. I thought I was killing it. But then
that ended, you know that that soon ended, and I
(24:20):
was down the beach doing the same deal. All thirty
one teams trying to get in did not get in.
After the draft, you know, after that year, and Jacksonville
was getting ready to host the first Super Bowl in
the franchise's history, super Bowl thirty nine. It was Philadelphia
(24:42):
and New England, and they were going to work on
basically a project to help raise funds for the improvements
that needed to be done to the stadium in order
to host the Super Bowl. So part of this project
was packaging Super Bowl tickets hotel rooms and parties, selling
(25:02):
them to these companies and wealthy individuals. And the money
they raised would help, you know, all set the cost
to the capital improvements to the stadium. And they needed workers.
And they asked me if i'd be interested in doing that,
and they said, hey, it'll keep you in the building.
You're not going to be doing anything with football. You're
going to be managing hotel rooms and guest lists and
(25:23):
party lists and doing ops work. And I said, hell, yeah,
you know, if it keeps me in the building, I'll
do it. And so that's what I ended up doing
for really the next year and a half. During that time,
they let me intern during the summertime in the football
person in the player personnel, So I got to meet
some scouts, got to meet some people that are decision makers,
(25:44):
and it helped bridge me to eventually my first full
time job. But yeah, those last two years in Jacksonville,
it was nothing to do with football. It was all
just yeah, it was It was about a year and
a half, you know, until until they hosted that Super Bowl.
And so do you want to talk about not making
(26:05):
a lot of money that that that year and a half,
you know, because I didn't have the car, I had
to get an apartment pay rent. So then that's when
I was really feeling more squeezed. But honestly, I felt
I was on the right track because I was still
involved and I was close, and even though I was
(26:27):
on the perimeter, I had I had some feeling that, hey,
this is going to lead to a job at some point.
Speaker 6 (26:36):
Okay, so how did you get was New Orleans is next?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Right?
Speaker 7 (26:40):
So after that job, that Super Bowl got played, So
that had been Super Bowl thirty nine and so obviously
the games played in early February, we kind of wrapped
up our duties and in probably the March, and I
just waited for the draft because I knew the hiring
and firing season for scouts was after the draft, and
(27:01):
after the draft, probably two or three weeks, same deal.
Nothing like, lots of phone calls, lots of maybes. I
just wanted to be a scouting assistant and get in somewhere.
And it came down doug till to like second third
week in May, where I was starting to call some
of my Harvard connections to say, Hey, maybe maybe banking
(27:24):
doesn't sound so bad, or maybe consulting might be a
good idea for me, because I knew at some point
I had to like really start making money. I remember,
I remember it to this day, sitting in my apartment
getting on Pro Football Talk and reading that the New
Orleans Saints had just lost a bunch of scouts they
had left on their own, and the director of college
(27:49):
scouting in New Orleans was a personnel director in Jacksonville
when I was in Jacksonville for three years. His name's
Rick right BSh, and so I had at least one
person I could call. I found out through a bunch
of people that they were going to bring in a
(28:10):
bunch of young guys to interview. They were going to
hire a couple of scouting assistants and a couple scouts,
and I just remember like if this is if I
don't get this, this is it, Like this is I'm done,
Like I got to go find something else. And New
Orleans flew me out and they hired me as a
scouting assistant. In two thousand and five, I moved to
(28:31):
New Orleans and in July of two thousand and five
was there for ten days and the Hurricane Katrina hit.
So that was my that was my welcome to New Orleans,
New Orleans, Jorans experience.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
So where were you?
Speaker 7 (28:44):
So I was? I evacuated with the team. We evacuated
to out s San Jose, California because we were playing
our final preseason game against Oakland on a Thursday, So
we evacuated out on Sunday or Monday before the store hit.
We spent you know, a good week out in California,
(29:05):
and then we relocated to San Antonio and spent the
entire season out in San Antonio. And that was that
was that was an experience, you know, practicing on high
school baseball fields. The team was a mess as you
can imagine, you know, it was it was the final
year of coach Haslet and the Aaron Brooks. There was
a lot of talent, but you could just imagine like
(29:28):
the dysfunction and how hard it is to keep a
team together amidst relocating to a different city. Like in
the middle of the season, you know, during the season,
we won our first game of the season at Carolina,
and I remember thinking it was going to be this special,
magical year, and we finished three and thirteen.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Much better, just you.
Speaker 7 (29:55):
Know, transitioning from Aaron to to Drew Brees in consecutive years, commitment,
putting in the time, physically had all the ability in
the world. I was just there for one year and
it was a bad year. So it's it's probably not
you know, I'm probably not a great person to speak
on it. And just from what I saw, it was
just so loose. I just saw a lot of guys
(30:19):
that were just kind of checked out, just to be
honest with you, and I felt, you know, he he
kind of was on that side. So that that's kind
of all I saw. Aaron Brooks, you know, and and
I he had some you know, good years in the
league and took that team to the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
So yeah, that was like their first playoff appearance. Okay,
so but when the coach gets fired, you gotta be like,
all right, I am, I gonna go have to pay
another job.
Speaker 7 (30:46):
I wasn't too concerned. I had felt that I had gotten,
you know, gotten to know all the guys really well.
In the personnel department. It was a young staff Mickey Loomis,
who's still the GM, and knew Orleans was the GM.
And as soon as I knew he, you know, he
was the person that was going to be hiring the
next head coach. You know, I felt, I thought, okay,
(31:09):
as far as having some stability in New Orleans, I
thought I had made a good impression that year. And
you know, throughout all this time, I was still I
still felt these people that I knew I needed to
ask for help. And that's the gist of the whole,
(31:29):
the whole, the whole time I was at Harvard, the
whole time I was in Jacksonville, the beginning of my
New Orleans experience, I knew the way I felt on
a day to day basis was not healthy and not
allowing me to be my best. I was so terrified
to ask somebody for help because I didn't want him
(31:50):
to think I was defective, you know. I wanted to
be known as the bright Harvard young scout that had
this upward track, you know.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
And so you say, don't you don't feel right? Like,
what if you can give me a appeal back to layer.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
Obsessive, NonStop frightening thoughts, constantly worrying, oh, you name it,
anything that would. I could read a current event, you know,
the you know, climate, climate change and the hurricanes going on.
I could read a story in the newspaper and it
(32:27):
would sit in my mind for weeks and and paralyze me,
and and it made it very difficult to do my
work physically. I felt extremely tight and uncomfortable. I got
to the point early on in my career in New
Orleans as a scouting assistant and as a as an
area scout where I'd wake up in the morning kind
of scared that, you know, can I get through this
(32:49):
day and do all this work? Just just just the
watching all the film, all the typing like can I
handle this? And then once that fear sets in, and
now you're just in this constant neurosis and worrying about
home all the time, worrying about my dad, worrying about
my brother. I can't explain it any other way, Doug
(33:11):
than it was NonStop, and and I really knew that
at some point I was gonna need to find a
way to change things, because there's no way I'm going
to be able to continue to live like this. And
and I think anyone around me, you know, I I
just did a really good job of of of portraying
(33:32):
that I was okay, that I was doing okay, and
that that things were all right. And as long as
I had a job in the NFL, and I was,
I was employed, and and you know, people thought that
was really cool and that I was doing okay. That
that's just how I existed and survived for several years.
Speaker 6 (33:51):
So when when did you medicate yourself?
Speaker 7 (33:56):
So I I mental health brought me to my knees
when I was thirty one years old. That's probably how
I Probably we won the Super Bowl in two thousand
and nine. The very next year. What would happen, Doug,
is every summer we'd get these three months off and
I would make all these changes and convince myself this
(34:18):
next year, I'm going to feel better mentally and physically.
I would acupuncture, new massage, new trainer, new dial whatever
I could read that could help me feel better mentally
and physically, I would try it. And that's what I
would be obsessed with. And I remember, same pattern, same routine.
(34:38):
I get on the road. It's my very first week
on the road. I'm thirty years old, I'm in Oklahoma,
and I have to drive out to West Texas to
this is on school calls, you know, in August, so
training camp for college football. And I remember being on
that drive out to West Texas and feeling that same
(34:59):
pain again in my in my lower back, in my hip,
same racing thoughts in my head, over and over again.
This is like day one. And I had my first
real full panic attack when I was at West Texas
University the very next day. I remember interviewing a coach
asking him about one of the players, very standard interview,
(35:24):
and I remember he was talking and all I could
see his face was his mouth moving, but I couldn't
hear anything. I couldn't hear what he was saying. I
couldn't make out what he was saying. And I knew
the trainer at West Texas really nit wherell Seth and
I went downstairs and I told him, I said, hey,
I don't I don't feel right. Something's going on. They tested,
(35:44):
but they took me to like the actual nurse's office.
They tested my blood pressure, they gave me like a
granola bardi blah blah blah, and you know, I went
out to the practice field and and didn't feel right
at all, but told him I was okay off and
I end up leaving and I drove from West Texas
to Lubbock, and as soon as I got to Lubbock, Texas,
(36:07):
I drove straight to the hospital. I checked myself in
and said, I don't know what's wrong with me, but
I can't go another day living like this. I don't
know if it's my heart, I don't know what it is.
And they thought I might be having like some kind
of heart condition, so they rushed me to the back
and I spent eight hours in that emergency room that night,
and I probably know more than that. I was probably
(36:28):
ten or twelve, and went through a battery of tests,
all kinds of tests, and doctor came to my bed
at two am in the morning and he looked at
me and he said, I got good news and I
got bad news. And he said, the good news is
you're perfectly healthy. He's like, the bad news is you
need a lot of help. You need somebody to talk
to you because there's a lot of stuff that is
(36:49):
causing this stress and anxiety. As anybody ever told you
about the anxiety. And I said, no, I've always felt
like this. I just I've gotten to the point where
I can't deal with it anymore. And that doctor looked
at me and said, you need to call the New
Orleans Saints and tell him you're gonna need, you know,
four to six weeks off of work. This is what
I'm recommending for.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
You.
Speaker 7 (37:10):
Go back to Dallas because that's where my home base was.
Find a doctor and find a therapist. And you need
to get this under wraps because it's just going to
get worse if you don't start talking and you don't
start getting some therapy. And he said, I'm going to
give you two prescriptions, and this is just for these
(37:30):
next four to six weeks. This is just a crutch
until you get the help that you need. And he
gave me a prescription of kalanapin for my anxiety. And
he gave me a prescription of Norco for all the
pain that I was having in my low back and
my hip when I was driving and never had taken
klonopin before. Obviously I had exposure to pain pills in
(37:52):
the past. And he told me, when I go back
to the hotel, drive back to Dallas, when you wake
up and and start getting some help. And I drove
to the hotel, got the prescriptions filled in the morning,
took a kalanapin, and took the Norco within thirty minutes.
(38:14):
Never felt better in my life. Drove to Lubbock, did
the school call, worked for eight hours, felt amazing. Drove
back to Dallas. Didn't say a word to anybody at
the Saints, didn't look for help. I just looked for
a doctor that would prescribe me that medication. And for
(38:34):
the next eighteen months I've it was the most clear,
the most the most serene, the most peaceful I'd ever felt.
I was very open to people about what I had
found and these are the medications I was taking, and
this has really helped me. To my wife, to my dad,
to the people you know that worked close to me.
(38:56):
I didn't hide anything from anyone, and I was a
the impression that I was cured, that my issues and
all this stress and all this anxiety was done. And
for the next next eighteen months it was you know,
I got promoted at work. I remember thinking like, all
these things that were holding me back in my life
(39:18):
are now over. And then it got to this point
where what they were prescribing wasn't meeting like the way
I needed to feel every day. And I went into
the doctor's office and I talked to the doctor in
Dallas and said, you know, hey, I need more like
it's not I don't feel the same as I did
when I first started taking it, and and she she
(39:40):
was like, no, you need to start taking less. And
this is where kind of for me. I, instead of
really bearing down and reaching out for help, I went
off on my own and I started buying, you know,
prescription paint pills on the street.
Speaker 6 (39:58):
And how how do you do it?
Speaker 7 (40:00):
Just through friends? Through you know, talking to people at
the gym, We like.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
How like, I mean, I've been I've been to one
hundred gyms. No one's ever gone like a man like,
how do you how do you know somebody might be
the hook up?
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (40:15):
I mean the very first person I bought them from.
You know, was someone that was in Dallas that we
talked about it openly, you know, at the gym, because
I used obviously was using the Norcoe for for several
months prior to ever, like really buying them legally or
like buying them off the street. I had some friends
(40:36):
that in Jacksonville that I knew used them. You know,
I knew enough people that that had connection to them,
and and that's when I started buying them. And that's
when my life really started to take a turn for
the worse.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And like what.
Speaker 7 (40:52):
You know I was. I was a functioning addict, you know,
from thirty one years old until May of twenty seventeen,
you know, for about seven eight years there where my
life became how do I make sure I have enough
(41:15):
medication to function through the dame? And that's all my
life was. I isolated, I separated from all my friends.
You know, I was married, and obviously you know, she
knew something was up. I hit her. I hit it
from her house. Serious it was, And that's what my
(41:37):
life became. Just a survival mode, like making sure I
have enough medication to feel okay and make sure I
can get my job done. That was the bottom line,
Like I disassociated from a lot of friends and through
all this, you know, was a promotion to become the
personnel director with the Bears.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
All right, that's it for Josh lucas Part two. We'll
drop part three very very soon. I remind you can
listen to the Doug gottlib Show three to five Eastern.
We also have an hour pod on that. So just
happened Doug Gottlieb. And if you like this stuff, if
you like this content, there's a lot more of it.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is Zubble.
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Anna Sale explores the big questions and hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.