September 20, 2023 • 60 mins
Doug is joined by 12-year NBA and EuroLeague veteran Pat Burke to discuss his rough introduction to high school hoops as an Irish born immigrant in Cleveland, how a move to Florida changed his outlook on basketball, his recruitment to Auburn, the ups and downs from his college career, and the revelation he’s had about his coach Cliff Ellis as he’s matured.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, and welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Doug Gottlieb, and you are listening to All Ball,
and I find our next guest or our next couple
of pods to be perfect for, among other things, this
time of year, you know, one of the things that
you're hearing or you're actually seeing as I'm watching highlights
from the NBL, which of course you're going down to
(00:30):
Australia and parts of New Zealand, or some of these
young basketball players instead of playing college basketball or overtime
Elite or the G League ignite, they're they're taking their
talents down there and using that as a prep to
the NBA. I find it fascinating to see so many
avoiding the college experience. Now, there's a lot that goes
(00:50):
into the college experience. There's a lot that goes into
or why I think college athletics, college basketball in particular
is still in incredibly valuable for so many, even the
most talented athletes. And the argument that well, they're not
getting paid, that argument has been made moot. But why
(01:13):
not bring on a guest who's experienced the life of
late bloomer athletically, a late bloomer in basketball who went
through the college process who played some in the NBA
but really made it a name for himself playing overseas,
and what that is entirely like, what that lifestyle is like,
and what the lifestyle is like of making it to
(01:33):
the NBA in the juxtaposition of the two. Pat Burke
is going to be my guest the next couple podcasts.
Pat's the first ever Irish born player to play in
the NBA. Of course, he grew up mostly in the States,
and you'll get to hear his story. There's a lot
in this right It's the story of a kid late
to basketball, the story of a kid who was finally
(01:53):
coached the right way for his personality, for his mentality,
for his development. The story of a guy who didn't
believe him in himself many times over and then when
he did, maybe got a little bit too full of himself.
There's a lot of meat on this boat. Here's part
one with former European basketball star and of course played
(02:14):
with the Orlando Magic and the Phoenix Suns. The graduate
of the University of Auburn at Burke. Pat, Let's let's start, okay,
So you know when you when anybody like Google searches you,
that doesn't remember he's to play, like, oh, well he's Irish,
but you actually, you know, born in Ireland, but played
(02:36):
played high school basketball in the States, and of course
went to school at Auburn. Give me the give me
the true picture of born raised, what your early childhood
life was like.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So my family left Ireland when I was four. We
moved to Cleveland, Ohio, and like I'd say, like any
typical Irish culture or any any immigrant family that comes in,
I think we were a little shy to go into
sports right away. And I think my I said, my
(03:08):
initial organized sports experience was I was sitting in our
kitchen in Cleveland and my aunt, my dad's sister, actually
brought my cousin David into the kitchen with him, and
then she just started talking about and signed them up
for ice hockey. And I can just remember like the
room went completely quiet, Like my dad like looked up
from probably his little cup of tea, like what are
(03:31):
you talking about? Like how are we going to get
involved in ice hockey? And so then the next focus
was my aunt Patricia asked me, She said, pat would
you like to play? And I looked up at my
parents and they said, you know, you can if you want.
And I went and started playing ice hockey for and
they started playing for about eight years.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Amazing. What you know, it's your family, you know, and
you immigrating over here. It's almost like a throwback to
the stories of like my grandparents and great grandparents. In
terms of your experience. What is that experience like of
being an immigrant family in Cleveland, Ohio? Shoot me the
picture of your childhood, because I'm my mind is going
(04:12):
in different places. I wonder what it's like.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So I let you say. The menu was completely Irish.
A lot of Irish stew a lot of shepherds by
we stayed, I'd say, unto ourselves, a lot of Irish family.
So family, get toghere.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
It was where in Cleveland side I grew.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
I grew up in really three towns from Bay Village,
Rocky River, and Avon Lake, so west side of Cleveland.
My dad got into you know, construction, landscaping. He opened
up a you know a number of different businesses at
that time. I remember anything that was going on in school,
(04:54):
bake sales. My mom was bringing it, not chocolate chip
cookies like all the other American kids. We had scones.
A lot of kids going you know, what the hell
are those? Yeah, just very Irish, you know. As a
kid just going back and forth to Ireland. Vacations were
not you know, going out west, not going to Hawaii,
not going to California, not going to Florida. We were
(05:14):
going back to Ireland pretty much every vacation. We had
to go visit family. When relatives came over, we all
got in the car, you know, met them at the
gate as soon as they got out. It was just
all the aunts and uncles and my parents. I remember
looking at my grandparents their uncles coming over and just
worrying if they brought over Irish sausages and making and
(05:37):
all that good stuff on their carry on. So yeah,
so a lot of it was you know, we joined
Irish heritage clubs, so a lot of the culture was
not just reinforced through getting together, but through music and
just celebrating you know, Irish heritage. Even sports, if people
don't know, a lot of Irish sports is really onto
(05:59):
itself as well. All the most popular sports are in
the Gaelic Athletic Association. There's the Irish football, which is
much different than American football, and then hurling and so
whenever they have the all Ireland like the it would
be like the epitome of the Super Bowl for the
United States. I remember at that time, VHS tapes would
show up, and they were different versions of VHS. So
(06:22):
I remember, like we go down into my uncle's basement
like a television was turned upside down with some sort
of connection to see a scrambled black and white video
of someone's scoring a goal from my dad's county or something,
and everyone's screaming. So yeah, so it was. It was
probably a lot a lot more different than most of
(06:43):
my friends in our neighborhood and what we experienced.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's interesting the hockey element because when you became widely
considered the best center in Europe, right, you know, later
on in life, a lot of it was about your
moved exception. Well, and it's interesting because a lot of
the I don't want to get into this kind of
a little bit further, a lot of the reason European
bigs have kind of taken over. I think there's a
(07:10):
lot of different reasons, but one is, as you know,
play soccer for practice, right in terms of agility, how
much do you think the hockey helped you in terms
of your basketball and your movement for man your size.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I'd say, well, a lot of the So let's just
say there's the tactical and the technical. So the technical
side of things I played as a kid, so I
probably didn't study tapes or anything on any greats like
Wayne Gretzkiray thing. So the tactical side of things would
have been, you know, understanding, you know where to be
(07:43):
on defense, uh, you know, again, supporting the team, knowing
how to play even I mean the terminology wasn't help side,
but understanding, you know, kind of the the different spart
the different parts of strategy inside of the game would
have been. But again is on the on the physical side,
you know, yes I had size, but I remember the
(08:03):
transition into basketball, different muscle groups. You know, there was
no vertical jump there. It was just you know, flat,
just not being able to barely touch the rim at
the time and realizing that. You know, I did bring
a competitive nature and it was very physical, but again,
five fouls right away in a game is not gonna
(08:23):
contribute to someone staying on the floor and actually developing
into a standout player right away.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
So when did you make the transition to basketball? How
old were you.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So I was around fourteen. I had a huge growth
spurt in one summer. I remember I moved from when
we were just sharing earlier. I moved from Rocky River
Davon Lake. And during that summer, I remember, you know,
I was I was just a hockey fanatic. I played spring, summer,
winter fall leagues all the time. And during that growth spurt,
(08:57):
I remember my mom just we went into you know,
at the time, in those communities, you'd have equipment swaps,
and so you'd find someone in the neighborhood who had
their garage and they would, you know, you bring your skates,
your helmet, your you know whatever you were not fitting anymore,
and you'd put your stuff on the table and you'd
exchange it for the next size up. And all my
stuff was at the end of the table, and so
(09:17):
there was no more exchange. And so then I remember
my mom was like, well, we got to figure out
something else. And initially then for that summer I found
out I grew seven inches. So I went from eighth
grade leaving at five ten and then moving into this
new town and you know, understanding the sports, of course,
(09:37):
it creates an opportunity for you to meet friends. My
mom wanted me to join other sports even though hockey
was not going to be on the future plans. So
I decided I wasn't going to play, and I stayed
the whole summer inside my basement just playing video games
with my brothers, and I grew at seven inch. I
went from you know, from five ten to six five
(09:57):
in one summer, and then she signed me up for
a mayor and football.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
So what video games? That's not just the most important.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah thing, right, like just block graphics. It was like
Nintendo at the time, so everything.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Natarium. I'm trying to think, because when Nintendo came out, right,
it was Super Mario Brothers, Zelda. But then you also
had like Double Dribble, Techno Bowl, RBI Baseball. But again
you know your immigrant family, you're playing hockey course, uh
with Blades of Steel was the first big hockey game,
which was amazing. It was a great game.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah. Yeah, so a lot of a lot of those
type games, you know, like at Christmas you'd get you know,
it just fitted with hockey gear, hockey theme stuff. So like, yeah,
the video games, you know, again with Super Mario Brothers.
Just basically I was a kid. I didn't have an
extreme focus on one thing, so I probably played you know, Metroid,
all types of yeah, yeah, all those games. Yeah. My
(10:56):
brothers and I would just battle it out.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So now you're gonna playotball and you're this gangly there's
no one grows seven inches and it's completely coordinated right away,
that's right. How did football go your freshman year?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It did not go well? So I showed up two
weeks late for the conditioning, you know, new kid. So
I remember I went into the high school office signed
up for the sport, and then they gave me the
equipment the day one. So I'm putting on all this
gear I've never put on before. I'm walking across the
parking lot over to this shady oak tree where all
(11:30):
the guys are, you know, they're the rest period between
the two days. And this guy comes up and he's like, whoa,
you know, how tall are you? Like you're huge? And
I remember, now in eighth grade I had left I
was five ten, so I'm mentally still thought I was
five to ten. So as I come up to them,
I'm like, I'm five ten and these guys are like, dude,
(11:52):
there's something wrong with this guy. You know, what the hell,
what's he talking about. So this guy comes out, He's like,
can't be five ten, I'm six two, and I'm looking
up at you, and I'm like, I don't feel any different,
you know. So it was just it was, you know,
really being closed minded about the fact that, you know,
I was still the same kid. And so then I
remember after that practice, I went home checked my height,
(12:13):
you know, just to found a little spot in the
in the kitchen, and measures found out that I grew
seven inches. Went up to my mom, she was in
the kitchen, probably making scones or tea or something, and
I said, Mom, I'm six five and she turned she
was just like, oh Jesus, look at you, you know.
And so then she was all on my aunts and
uncles and relatives in Ireland and just saying like, he's
(12:34):
six ' five. And so at that point I finished
the football season. I started the first year of you know,
my first days of school. I remember walking in and
the world had an influence on me. Then it's just like, hey,
you know what, you should play basketball. Everybody kept telling me,
but I didn't go out. That freshman year had a
lot of you know, lack of confidence, like you said,
like your your motor skills are off, You're just not
(12:56):
feeling yourself. And then the next year I was six seven,
so then starting at starting that again. That next year,
I was like, this is impossible that you know, I'm
six seven. So then but where let's say my freshman year,
you know, let's say ten people during the day kept
telling me you should play basketball. By the time I
was six seven. The sophomore year, it was like twenty
(13:17):
people were telling me. So then I had the I guess,
the courage with everyone telling me I should go out.
I went and tried it out.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Now, how did you play basketball before?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
No?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Not? What is that? What is that experience? Like that
learning curve?
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Like I'll tell you this. I'll tell you this, Doug.
Every time I walk into the gym and I walk in,
I talked to kids, all right, I just I'm just
about to walk into a camp, I get the same feeling.
I look out at the floor, and that first day
ever looking out, I remember I was watching, you know,
kids that have been practicing all their lives. So you'm
watching all this between you know, the legs, dribbling behind
(13:54):
the back, shooting threes with good form, and I still
see it today, and I remember being the kid in
the doorway going what am I doing? Like I don't
know how to do any of this stuff? And so
I went out there. I just you know, I was
shooting two handed. There was no development of anything. You know,
I understood, of course, put the ball in the metal cylinder,
(14:14):
but everything was outside of that. I was just so
far beyond any understanding of how to play the game
with the skill.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So how did you how did you pick it up?
Like what was what was the process by which you
went to go from there to being a Division one
stoship athlete.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So my first I always tell people I had two coaches,
and I think the Good Lord put them in a
certain order for me. My first coach that sophomore year
JV basketball, he you know I made the team. It
was like every day he told me, you know who
I wasn't who I was never going to be, just autocratic,
just you know, righteously telling me, you know you did
(14:54):
this wrong, you're doing this. And before before long I
was didn't even know, but behind my back, I just
the joke of the team. And even on the first
before the very first game, he went around he was
telling everybody their roles. He's like, you know, hey, you know, Fred,
You're you're a point guard. You're going to control the
tempo of the game. You're gonna be our communicator. You're
gonna echo everything that I need to say to the guys.
(15:15):
And they go down the line. You're you know, you're
a three point shooter. You're gonna be the sniper of
the team. And he's still on the power forward and
I was sitting there nervously at the end of this conversation.
I'm like, what's he going to say to me? And
by the time he got to me, my hands are
sitting there sweating, and he just stops and he's pouring
at me and he says, uh, Pat, I never want
to see you dribble the ball. And at that point,
(15:36):
you know, I always tell kids that, like, you know,
the biggest fear kids have is not fitting in. And
I remember at that point I wasn't looking good, feeling good,
or feeling safe, and I was done. I was like,
I'm done with basketball. And the saving grace that I
didn't have to quit is I got I got home
shortly after that couple of weeks, and I remember my
dad was coming in from a cold Cleveland winner and
(15:59):
we're at the kid We're at the enter table. I'm
the youngest of six, so myself, my next older brother, Nile,
We're sitting at our kitchen table. My dad said to
my mom, Nile myself, he said, would you guys consider
moving to Florida? And I was like, I will pack
my bags right now, like I'm so done. I just
don't want to be in this situation anymore. And so
(16:19):
we moved shortly after that. Halfway through that JV basketball season,
moved down to Cape portl Florida. I walked into school
thinking basketball was so far removed, never had to go
through that embarrassment again. As soon as I walked in
the door at six seven, I think the first kid
that saw me was like, whoa, I'll tell you and
I'm like, I'm six seven. And he just ran down
(16:40):
the hall and he was like, we're gonna win the
state championship and I was like, no, don't know. And
it just spread, It spread like wildfire, like every class
people thought I was being humble. They're like, you know,
how you know, can you dunk? And I was like no,
I can't. And they're like he's lying, he's lying, he's amazing,
and I'm like, no, guys, I I don't even play,
(17:01):
and nobody would take my word for it. And so
then at the end of the day, I'm walking down
the hall like ready to go home, like this is
the worst situation I could have ever imagined with the reset,
and this gentleman taps my shoulder and I turn and
he says, hey, are you the new guy? And I said, yes, sir,
i am. And he said, hey, you want to go
down to the gym and shoot some hoops? And I
(17:24):
mean his voice came out of me like I'm not
a basketball player, and he said, well, I didn't say
you were. I just wanted to get to know you.
You want to go shoot some hoops with me, I'm
coach Marty Waters and I'm like, okay, I know this routine.
I'll go down there, I'll start shooting. You'll realize out
of the gym and he's like, hey, Pat, you ever
shut over here on the elbow and I'm like, yeah,
(17:46):
I've shot there. So he's like, let's take some shots.
So I start shooting brick airball, brick and he's rebounding.
I mean, he's just running around getting these rebounds. And
he comes up to me and he's like, hey, you
have a nice soft touch. And I'm like, is there
something wrong with this guy? Like what are you talking about?
(18:06):
I just bricked every shot. And so he told me
that the varsity coach from that school he was unlike
high school, had contacted him that I was coming down,
that I was a project player, and he told him
that I had played eight years of ice hockey. So
I was pleasantly surprised that, you know, someone had actually
taken that initiative to call. And so Coach Water said
(18:28):
to me, he said, hey, what if I can set
this up where everyone understand that you know you've played
ice hockey and that you're out here to do your best,
and I promise you that there won't be any expectations.
And I was like, okay, I'm going to go for it.
So he brings in the team, you know, the next
day or I come to one of the practices and
he's like, hey, guys, this is Pat you just moved
down here. He's six ' seven, he played eight years
(18:50):
of ice hockey, and I guarantee if we were on
ice right now, he probably slammed you all onto a wall.
You'd never be able to stand up. He would skate
circles around you, he said, but he's transitioning over to basketball,
and I think if we help him, he'll help us.
And it was like one of the coolest moments because
I was like, Wow, I wish I had that every
time I walked into something new. And so then as
(19:15):
that season started going, you know, I didn't play that
much that scene that transitioned into that sophomore second half.
But then by the spring and summer, and I was
around my house and I just remember the phone rang
and my mom would come to me and like, Pas, Pat,
there's someone named Michael on the phone. I'm like, Mom,
I don't know Michael, and she'd be like, well, someone's
on the phone, So I go pick it up. He's like, Pat, Hey,
(19:37):
it's Mike. You know. Coach told me to come pick
you up. We're gonna go play over here at Fort
Myers Beach. I'm like okay, So they picked me up.
As soon as I get home, somebody else would call
me and they'd be like, hey, you know, hey, this
is John. Coach told me to pick you up, about
to go shooting the driveway, and slowly I started to
you know, get an understanding. I was going kinesthetically through
(19:58):
the motions. But then Coach Water kept asking me these
thought provoking questions. And even my dad, you know, I
didn't have this sense of like asking these type of
questions in this leadership space. So he kept asking me, like,
what would you like to do in life? And I'm like,
you know, my my my life is pretty destined to
you know, be a landscape like my dad. I don't
think I'm going to be playing basketball. And he said, well,
(20:21):
I think you know that you're still growing, and I
think that maybe there's an opportunity, you know, even even
a small college could come look at you. And I
was like, this guy, whatever sods about my senior year.
I'm you know, I'm six ' eleven and he's you know,
has changed everything in me. I have the confidence where
I'm out in the driveway and I'm practicing all the time.
You know, I'm at night, I'm taking my mom's lamps
(20:43):
out in the driveway and I'm turning them on. Neighbors
are walking by, They're seeing me working on post moves,
and they're probably thinking they're going this guy what's what's
he thinking? He's not going anywhere? And then you know,
college has started to come in and talk to me.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
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Speaker 2 (21:09):
How good was your team your senior year.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
I think we had a lot of potential, uh, the chemistry.
You know, this was marin or high school back in
you know that that would have been the ninety one
ninety two year, so a lot of a lot of
kids were moving in, uh at that time, so it
wouldn't be unfamiliar to see like new kids moving in
every week. So I think that we had put together,
(21:34):
you know, a fairly good looking team on a poster,
and I think it was like six eleven, like six
eight sixty six sixty six. You know, there's just a
lot of real good height. But we never really got
to that level. I think that we were I think
we were you know, too young at the time to realize,
you know, what we what we could have been doing.
But coach Waters did a great job, of course, of
(21:56):
you know, setting up a great schedule for us. We
went out and we played in a bunch of tournaments.
But I think it was all based on the fact
that you know, I hadn't I hadn't developed, or I
hadn't reached my full potential, you know. So a lot
of times I would have these like freakish stats where
you know, you'd have like eleven blocks one game, and
then one game you'd have like five rebounds, and you'd
(22:17):
have like, you know, eighteen rebounds. So the consistency wasn't there.
You know, at that time, I probably wasn't setting any
goals as far as like how the team would actually
become better. I was only working just on how do
I become better? You know, technically.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Okay, so then take me through the recruiting proces. By
the way, is what was your coach's name, Coach Marty Waters.
Is he still alive? He is, She's still coaching.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
He's not coaching though.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
That's pretty amazing though. The understanding, the emotional intelligence it
takes to understand what a kid has, what a kid needs,
and how to support him, Like that's really remarkable because
your first coach, you know, in Cleveland, like that's how
a lot of that generation coach, right is break them down,
build them back up, and just some kids you can't
(23:07):
because internally they've already broken themselves back down.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You know, yeah, I totally agree. I think that, you know,
looking back now my hindsight and seeing it is there's
this theory that a gentleman came up with, like in
the sixties, is called transformative learning theory, and it's one
of the most disruptive ways to actually get people to learn.
And most of it is done through not addition and
(23:32):
that old school way that I've recognized that you know,
a large portion of people are still doing this. They're
coaching but telling people what to do. You know, you'll
see a coach on the sideline telling a kid, I
told you a thousand times, you got a box out,
and you're going, yeah, you're not even hearing yourself. You're
saying you told them a thousand times, But you didn't
realize after two or three that what you're doing isn't
working as far as an impact. To create transformative learning,
(23:55):
you know, to actually speak or work with someone to
actually have them turn into something else. So Marty Waters
was doing was he was actually having me subtract bad
habits and so that's really what the you know, transformative
theory works on a lot of like let's go back
to when you first thought something, and then let's figure out,
you know, the most effective way to do it and
and doing so. Like after I left, I kept going
(24:18):
it was something about the way Coach Waters would communicate,
and I kept thinking about it, and then you know, here,
now I'm almost fifty years old, I actually studied all
of that ways he was doing. And that's how I
work with with youth and individuals, whether it's in business
or in basketball, is actually going through those same you know,
let's say, methods of actually working with others finding out
(24:42):
their truth, not the one that I'm seeing from you know,
from from this person point of view perspective. I'm actually
you know, figuring out how do we share a grounded reality.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Okay, your recruitment to Auburn, how that? How'd that go down?
Speaker 3 (24:55):
So, uh, you know, pretty much late in the game,
moved down to Florida. As you know, now today's world,
I mean, they'll find a kid when he's twelve, you know,
like in a remote country of the world. So nobody
knew that there was this six ' eleven guy in
Cape Coral. So coach Marty Waters came up. I think
the one practice I broke a backboard and he came
(25:20):
on a dunk, not a shot. So he came up
to me and he said, Hey, I'm gonna send this
out to I don't even know I can't remember who
the coach is at the time, and he was like, Hey,
I'm gonna send this out to this coach. I think
that you know that they should come look at you.
And I was like okay. And you know, he was
taking care of all of the handling of communication. So
then small colleges started to send letters and so I
(25:44):
started getting recruited by Winthrop, went also to Stetson, went
to Ucor, I got UCF with Joe Dean. Tommy Joe
Eagles was at Auburn at the time and his coach,
coach Haddocks, was the one that was actually you know,
showing up on campus to take a look set the
loyal and marimunt out in California was also communicating with
(26:07):
me at the time.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That was back when LMU was was was was run
up and down and win the games.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, so why Auburn? Uh, Tommy Joe Eagles, he when
he came in his presence was one that I knew.
I was like, you know what, there's something about him.
I really trusted everything that he was saying. He could
see that I was a project. He was probably the
main reason when I visited the university, I was like,
(26:38):
this is beautiful. It was probably the most quiet of
all my visits. Most of them they were all trying
to like take me out. American University was another one,
so a lot of them were just taking me out,
you know, showing me kind of the social scene. When
I got to Auburn, it was like I went out
with the guy who was graduating, christ brandt Uh and Chris.
You know, he basically just showed me around and went
(26:59):
to a restaurant, We went to a pet shop to
grab some food for his fish. After after going through
all of it, I was like, I think this is
the one, you know. But then there was one more thing,
Doug that you know, it really nipped me in the ass.
Was the starting center was Chris going out at the time,
(27:19):
and the next guy in line, I think it was
a guy named Aaron Swinson who was six ' four
and so my belief was, Hey, I'm six to eleven,
I'm coming in here, I'm going to start what.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
About your parents, Like they hadn't experienced any of this,
none of it? What was what was there? What was
their influence like on your decision?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
So going back to we were sharing kind about the
leadership side of the things, is I think the benefit
of my dad not knowing anything was there was no
tampering in any of Coach waters beliefs or his techniques.
So he basically was like, hey, Coach Waters, here's my son.
(27:58):
Please do your best to help them with this. And
so my dad never got involved in you know, like
trying to shoot the drive with me or putting me
through ball handling stuff. He just didn't know. You know, again,
is growing up irish? You know, like there was a
lot of things that were the you know, initially whenever
we did something it was the first time doing it.
So me going through basketball, I think that he knew
(28:20):
his place was like, Hey, I'm going to support my
son and I'm not going to sit here and give
him some sort of advice that you know doesn't translate.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
But again, and I don't want to be presumptuous because
I don't know your family dynamic. My guess would be
irish immigrant family that it was a some sort of
push of hey, if you're going to do it, you're
going to do it right, right, You're going to do
like there's a I mean, I think one of the
things that has changed, and it's it's it's I think
(28:50):
most of it is actually our generation because we're the
parents now, right, is the questioning of teachers, the questioning
of coaches, the questioning of leadership. Yeah, in your upbringing,
was there any what was what was your you know, like, look,
my dad wasn't he was grandson of immigrants. But it's
like people ask like why did you get good grades
(29:12):
in high school? Well? I didn't have any other choice,
you know, why did you work hard beasketball? I didn't
have any other choice? What was what was even though
he wasn't involved in the day to day what was
this influence? Like academically and in terms of your work ethic, So.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Academically it would have been you know, the great reports
coming home. You know, he'd sit down with you and
just you know, communicate like you know what's going on here?
You know, And again it was it wouldn't be more
of a question. It would be like you can do better,
and you'd feel you'd feel an understanding of if there
was disappointment, you know, that would be something that would
(29:47):
burn inside of you and you'd know, you know, you'd
made some choices that you know got in the way
of you know, studying for tests or doing assignments. As
far as the work ethic in games, I I think,
you know, just seeing my dad work as hard as
he could, you know, to make ends meet. You know,
I'm the youngest of six, so I saw the older
(30:08):
three going off to college, my mom and dad making
ends meet that I don't think I ever was coached
in energy or effort. It just you know, I went
as hard as like even when I played pro. I
just I never would have thought once to like drop
at a level. And I think that comes from again,
is like when you're when you're growing up, and it's
(30:29):
just what you see. You never see anybody taking a
day off. You just you're always going as hard as
you can. And I think that that's one of the
things that even when my dad, mom and dad saw
me in games. I don't remember my mom and dad
ever after a game going oh you really had good energy,
you know, it would because it wasn't ever put in there.
It was just like, you know, you did you did
well with this, and what did your coach say about this?
(30:51):
So a lot of a lot of going back to,
you know, kind of at the abstract of today's world
with parents, you know, saying and giving their opinion. My
parents would have been like, well, what did coach Waters
say about this? Or what does he think about that?
And as soon as he would I would share what
it was, it would be like, that's what you're going
to do, you know. And so I think that my
parents really partnered with my coach, you know, and anybody
(31:14):
who was involved as far as you know, just creating
a larger sense of team and kind of a uniform
thought process be like okay, let's do that, you know.
So I think that, you know, after games and stuff,
my mom and dad would go up to coach Waters
and shake his hand and just there was a lot
of understanding that this was not happening because you know,
(31:34):
a rock hit me in the head and all of
a sudden, you know, I understood how to do a
drop step. You know. It was like they knew that
he was investing a lot of time and now that
all these coaches and colleges were coming in that he
was the influence that was making it happen.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So you go to Auburn, What do you remember about
showing up on campus?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
So I'm sitting there my mom and dad we drive
the nine hours up there. I have a trunk that
has two pair of jeans, a couple of T shirts.
My dad hands me two hundred dollars and he says,
make this work, and I'm like, wow, this is a
lot of money. I fixed my room up all of
(32:13):
fifteen minutes, and then I remember there's a knock at
my door and Aaron Swinson, the six ' four second
coming of Charles Barkley, says, hey, you're the new guy Pat.
I'm like yeah, yeah. So I meet him. I'm like, hey,
nice to meet you. He's like, hey, we're gonna go
play some pickup down at the gym, and I said okay.
(32:33):
So I'm sitting there and I'm getting nervous because no
one's seen me play. I've never seen them play. And
in one pickup game, Aaron Swinson dunks on me about
fifteen times and I have.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
No I have no You're like, what am I doing here?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah? I'm like, what am I doing and immediately it
just starts crushing me. And then we then most of
the guys show up and they start playing up ball,
and I can't. I can't hold my own I can't
even stop any of the guys. You know, I'm about
I'm six ' eleven and I'm just probably it's a
little over two hundred pounds, so I'm like, I'm a
(33:11):
skeleton and they're just taking advantage of me. And then
before long, I'm not even getting picked up in the games.
So I remember, you know, I'd sit there and I'd
try to voice saying I got downs, and they wouldn't
even listen to me. They would actually play five on
five and they go, let's just run it back, and
so that after a while, I just went into the
locker room and I just started watching television, you know,
(33:32):
every day in preseason. And then one of the coaches
came in was like, you know, what are you doing.
Why aren't you out there playing? And I was like,
I've been out there for you know, a week and
a half. They won't let me on the court, and
so then they just kept telling me like you got
to go out there, and it just it wasn't happening.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So my first month at Notre Dame, do you wear
a Keith tower?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, he lives down here in Orlando.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Okay, So Heith had graduated, but he and Lafonso Ellis,
a couple other guys came back and Keith was Keith's
whole thing was like he it was his pickup game.
So he's like, little guy, you ain't got no credit
algy you can't get on this court. So a Notre
(34:21):
Dame and I think it's where their practice facilities now
is have what's called the pit, and the pit is
you know the Joyce Center now I figure what it's
called now, but they have several auxiliary gyms and the
main auxiliary gym is down kind of below in the
battels of the arena and it's a nice setup and
that's where we play pickup ball. And so Keith kind
(34:44):
of ran the pit even though he'd already kind of graduated.
And it was the same thing like I couldn't get
on the court. Now. It wasn't that I was bad,
it was that I was a freshman and I was,
I'm sure, kind of cocky and I was told like
I was, I was brought in to be the starting
point guard, and at some point, like I couldn't get
on the court, so I did the opposite of what
you did. I stood at the free throw line and
(35:06):
just wouldn't move, And these fucking guys start playing without me,
and I'm like, dude, I came here to play, so
I'm going to play. And Keith, you know, Keith would
just have him keep playing for a while. Finally, like
Freddy McCaffrey came down, he's like, wells, we gotta get
Ayboddy in here. You know. It's like and I think
they probably pulled Keith aside, like, look, dude, I get it.
(35:28):
You know you're the older guy, You're the NBA player
at this time, like you gotta let the guys play.
But I completely know the know, the feeling of not
feeling like you're fitting in belonging. Yeah, and it's really
all right. Then it gets worse because then I'm sure
when you started practice, you're like, holy crap, I've even
more lost.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yeah. Yeah, So then we start practice. We started doing drills,
and Tommy Joe Eagles before practices, he'd you know, we'd
warm up, stretch at half court. We'd have a big
circle and he'd walk around, he'd visit with everybody, and
he come up to me and be like, hey, Biggin,
you're a right biggin. And I'm just like sitting there like,
(36:09):
oh yeah, I'm good, and he's like you sure, you know,
cause he's getting all the report. But I couldn't see
that big macro plan. I was like sitting there just
in the micro going I don't see it. And every
time I talk to my mom or dad, I'm like,
I don't think I'm supposed to be here. My dad
just like stop, just stop, you know, And I'm like,
(36:33):
you don't understand, like they're not letting me play. I'm
in hearing when I'm going into practice, I don't understand,
like why I can't keep up with everybody, And just
you know, I never even took a snapshot of these
guys and said, you know, what was their experience, Like
what did they do in the year before in the
weight room? What do they do as far as like
you know, getting faster lateral quickness. To me, it was
(36:53):
just like this is never going to actually improve because
I had never stepped into any other way of being
more effective. So it was like someone was like coach, coach,
Eagles was like telling me, hey, look, there's a bunch
of different approaches that you haven't even taken yet. With
your nutrition and strength training and all of this. You
know you're coming in here, you know, like a skeleton.
(37:15):
But you know, within that first year, I think I
left there my freshman year with like twenty five pounds
of muscle.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
How much did you play?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I didn't a red shirt. I read shirted that first year.
My roommate, Lance Weims was mister Alabama for basketball, mister
Alabama for football, mister Alabama for baseball. He was like
everyone's all American. So he played that year and so
I just I just you know, I went out, I
suited up, and I you know, went through the layup
(37:43):
lines with the guys warming up, and I just saw
this tough year of just Auburn basketball, Like, let's let's
see what Auburn basketball is in the SEC and all
these non conference games, Let's see what the country thinks.
And that's when I started to really put it together.
I'm like, wow, this is a football school.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
It was. It was a football school. By the way,
your roommate who was mister basketball and everything, did he
play professionally in any of the sports.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
He didn't. You know, he at the end of his
senior year, so he graduated a year before me. He
had an offer to play in England, and the year
before he had gotten married, and he, you know, was
sitting there going, do I put you know, four or
five years into this and then lose where I could
be in the professional setting if I go get a job.
(38:30):
And so you know, I think he just became very
conservative there at the end and he said, no, I'm
gonna I'm just going to start work.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Do you things come to mind with that one. It's
that you talk about different guys running their own race,
right like he was. He was on a completely different
path coming out of high school, right, and you become
the top center in Europe. That's that's amazing. But the
other part too, it is and like this this is
(38:59):
at lant that I'm glad that he got. He understood
and I know you understand, is like we have completely
devalued the relationship you can build with your university to
use it to get that first and all your jobs.
And you know it's I do think our generation, a
(39:20):
good portion of us get it. But for whatever reason,
you know, college has just become about how much can
I get how quickly can I get it, and not
realizing the ramifications of the next fifty years of your life.
You know. It's like, that's why I went to Notre Dame.
Was I went to Notre Dame because if it didn't
work out, domers take care of domers. And what I
(39:43):
found is Oklahoma State people are unbelievably loyal when you're
loyal to them. But now we have these guys, these
transient guys, and they play at three or four schools.
We're like, hey, when it's over, what are you going
to call it a job? You know? Anyway, So the
red shirt year it hit. And there's another part is
like red shirt ear is like a bad word to
(40:04):
kids now, Like sometimes you need a year to develop,
to figure it out, to grow, to understand what you're
doing every day, to feel comfortable. But you know this
is twenty five years ago. So the set your sophomore year,
your second year, your red shirt freshman year. What was
that season like?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
So just before that, I end that year. I remember
we go home for spring break. I come back and
my roommate Lands says, hey, let's go to the gym
and shoot this is my freshman year. After the season's
all over, and I said, okay, so I was feeling good.
I was like, hey, let me see that ball real quick.
And I get the ball. I take like one dribble
and I go up and I just slammed the crap
out of it. And he looks at me and he's like,
(40:47):
holy shit. And I was like, dude, I feel really good.
And next thing you know, I'm just wind milling it
and doing anything. I'm like, what just happened? And I
hadn't realized that, you know, everything I had been doing
in the weight room and nutrition wise was paying off.
I mean the nutrition side of it. It was like you're
coming out of class and you have a three pm scheduled,
go eat four peanut butter sandwiches at the weight room.
(41:09):
So then coming back. I leave that summer and my
dad was still a subscription member to an Irish newspaper
called The Echo. And at the back end of the
Echo he sees this advertisement. It says, all Irish basketball
players call here or something. So he makes the call
(41:29):
and I get on to this Irish World University team's
or the World University Games team. And when I get there,
It's the funniest thing is I get to reinvent myself.
Like none of the guys from Auburn are there, so
when I get there, all the Irish guys are like, oh,
you're amazing, this is great, and we have a lot
of Irish Irish Americans as well. And I just started
(41:53):
playing more dominant with that team. And then when I
come back then that year that you're sharing the sophomore
or my freshman year. The second year, I remember going
through the preseason and everybody, Wesley Person, Aaron Swintson, all
these guys are coming. You're like, dude, you are not
even the same person. And it was just that one
(42:14):
moment to get away to realize like at that time,
I you know, we played the USA team and practices,
we played all these other teams and I was getting,
you know, some attention, and it was like wow. You know,
sometimes you go under a little hypnosis thinking the environment
is telling you who you are, but it's like that's bullshit.
It's like you don't have to listen to what the
environment says. You can actually create that and be in
(42:35):
another environment then come back and all of a sudden,
you know, it's a paradigm shift. So I get I
get more obviously, I get to play. I'm not starting.
I'm not like in some position where you know, Tommy
Joe is using me amazingly, because at that time most
people don't even know this time of telling me Joe Eagles,
he had Wesley Person was the leading score of the SEC,
(42:57):
Aaron Swinson was a second leading scorer, second rebounder, and
Aubrey Wiley was the leading rebounder. And we probably lost
in conference games on like an average of like two points.
So going into the RUP or going to Tennessee, you know,
playing Jael Mashburn and playing uh, the guys in Tennessee.
We got to Alan Houston, we got to a point
(43:19):
where we're going to every game to the end and
we're just losing by a small margin. And then of
course at the end of that year, Tommy Joe Eagles
got fired, and uh, you know, that year was another
one of those opportunities where you learn so much. All
the guys that I looked up to were graduating, Aaron,
Wesley and Aubrey and they had they had taught us
(43:40):
all like how to work, you know, as hard as
you can and become you know the leaders in the
conference in those categories.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Okay, your coach gets fired right now, everybody leaves. What
was it like for you? Then?
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Uh So then the athletic the athletic director comes up
with David. David Howsley is a Hall and he's like, Pat,
We're we're very interested in hearing your opinion on who
we should be looking for and this, that and the other,
and like, we're looking for a Southern gentleman, Like a
southern gentleman. Why don't we just find somebody who wants
to win and is effective at winning. But anyways, they
(44:16):
had their parameters, and so then we get the call
that coach Cliff Ellis is our coach. She's coming out
from Clemson. And uh, the year before that, that redshirt year,
we actually played Cliff uh in the n I T
in Clemson when they had Searon Wright Chris Whitney. And
so when we play we played them, you know, you
(44:37):
got to see kind of the atmosphere he's about. And
then looking looking back at when they were telling us
Cliff was coming in, we started to look at all
of the big centers in the NBA that he had,
Horace Grant, Uh, you know, Dale Ellis and and all
these guys, and I started sinking, Wow, this guy's really
going to develop bigs. And so he came in and
uh he was. He was all about winning. So immediately
(45:00):
he was like, we had a team meeting and he
just said, look, we are Whatever happened in the past
is the past. This is a new you know, this
is a new movement forward. It's a new group, It's
gonna be a new environment. And it was how is
it different? Uh, the practices I think became more demanding,
(45:21):
you know, really questioning people about understanding the tactics of
the of the game. You know, I think that it
wasn't just going through the motions. And coach Ellis was
extremely hard on us until we learned everything. You know.
He put in a faster paced, full course press. We
went into a one to two on one. I was
the top of it. So I was starting and you know,
(45:44):
my whole goal in the beginning of that was just
to put as much pressure as I could on the ball.
He gave me, you know, the nod to play and
I was like extremely excited and want to do my best.
Forum you know, his coaching staff was great. I think
that also we changed, We've changed the trainer in the
strength room. You know, there was just these subtle differences
(46:06):
that you could tell that this was a bigger I
want to say it was. It was a bigger consistency
throughout the whole year, like you know, like what there
might have been some time off I think in between
Tommy Joe Eagles off season, but with coach Ellis, there wasn't.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
And it feels like and again, Tim, if I'm wrong,
but this is another fresh start for you. Right, you
had the fresh start when you're from Cleveland to Florida.
You had the fresh start when you at Auburn after
your first year when you got to go and and
play at with the Irish national team. Right, and now
you get another fresh start after kind of establishing yourself
(46:47):
as a developmental player and you're much further along. What
was he like to you? What did he tell you?
What was his expectations of you?
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I don't think you ever gave me expectations. I think
it was more you know, he would just you know,
he would come up and he'd not not so much
congratulate you, but he'd confirm or affirm when you were
doing good things. You know, keep doing this, keep doing that.
I don't think till my junior year when we played
in San Juan. He after one game he was just like,
(47:19):
you know, guys, we got a stud on our team.
And I'm looking around the room like who's he talking about?
You know? And we had just beat Louisville in the
finals and they had Samocky Walker and Lewis Simms. And
I remember at that point my junior year, he was like, look,
there's people that coming. They're going to start looking at you.
(47:42):
And I was like, what, Like, you know, I'm just
I'm just playing college ball. Like again, is I think
one of the things that I lacked, and that was
any type of goal that was outside of just that
month or two months, you know. Like you know, I
see a lot of times I see documentaries and I'm like, man,
I wish I could go back and start thinking big
(48:02):
picture more when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Do you know. I mean, like there's the naivete. I
think it's a healthier thing, right like you, I kind
of think all they think now is a big picture,
whereas you don't enjoy the little things, like the little
growth and the other stuff. If you're worried big pic like,
were you a regular student, did you go to the
(48:25):
football games, did you go to parties? Or you know,
were you because because I will tell you now, if
you go to a college campus, they're barely students. And
I'm not saying they don't take classes, but they take
them online. Right, They're at the facility, they're at training
table in front of their computer in the student athlete
like academic area, and very rarely on campus. And to me, like,
(48:50):
I was actually just at my own model and one
of the freshmen was like, yeah, we just I just
moved on my class online, and both me and the
head coach, Mike Boyden, were like, I think you want
you should get to campus, you know, like one of
your days a week, just because there's nothing like winning
a game, a league game, being Oklahoma and then strutting
(49:12):
on campus. Right, that's the ship. That's the best part.
So I understand, like you were like, man, I can't
believe all this stuff was happening around me. I didn't
even know. On the other hand, I don't know. I
think that naivete is super healthy because it allowed you
to enjoy and absorb all this other stuff that's going on.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Yeah, I think when I tell you about my senior year.
I think that that's absolutely spot on, because you know,
being Irish, being an immigrant coming over, when you're coming
from nothing, you have nothing to lose. So I don't
think there was any fear that I was playing with
my junior year. I was just putting it all on
the line, you know, like I was going to parties,
(49:51):
I was going you know, I was going to class,
making sure that I took care of my stuff. So
in a sense, I definitely agree that, you know, my
junior year probably was the end then of me being
in the moment and then I all of a sudden,
I clicked something and a switch went off, and then
I just kind of I was thinking way too much.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
You were thinking too much your senior year. Yeah, yeah, No,
it's a it's a really hard one. I think everybody
kind of goes that. They people wonder why sometimes seniors
don't perform to the level of expectations, and that's why,
because they put too much on them on themselves. I
got to ask, though Irish background, you had to be
a legendary beer drinker.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
And you know, sometimes people will call me former teammates
and they'll tell me a story and I'll be like,
I don't remember that, I'm not co signing that. So
but there will go a lot, especially with the Irish
national team. You know, we have a pilgrimage. We'd go
to the Guinness brewy uh in the summer and h yeah,
there was a lot of really good, good, good memories,
(50:54):
good stories, a lot of beer.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
So okay. I have a friend Dave Redison, works for
the Big ten Network, and he did a semester abroad
and actually played little basketball there and he said, like,
so in Ireland it is a fact. It is not
an arguable fact that the closer to the brewery the
pub is the better the beer. Is that accurate, and
(51:18):
then of course you went to the actual brewery. So
what is what is the reality to the quality of Guinness.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
It's extremely interesting, but I didn't know this until the
first time I went over. There's they said there's three
grades of Guinness. So there's an A, B and C
and most of the time we're drinking beer. C and
A is only brought out during like Saint Patrick's Day
or big festive events. So there probably is a some
(51:46):
sort of radius inside of what you're sharing that you know,
there's only so many of the really good barrels and
kegs coming out of there. But as far as like
having one in Ireland compared to having one in Cleveland,
Ohio or Mount Or, Florida, it's night and day, you know,
Like I was just over. I was just over for
four weeks, got back about four or five days ago,
(52:07):
and it's just a significant difference. Your senior year, well
you remember, so I think once I heard that there
were scouts coming, I was like, you know what, it's
the junior year, Damien or not Damien. Eric Dampier is
kind of at the pinnacle of the draft in it
(52:31):
was at ninety six. So we're at the SEC tournament
and I remember Mississippi State is taking us out. We
made to the second game.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
They went to the final four that year too, so
I mean, it's not like they're a bad team, right right.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
So I'm sitting there and I'm looking at him, and
I'm getting into my defensive position for a free throw
in our basket. He's shooting the free throw and I
remember looking at his forearms and I'm like, Damn, this
guy's big. I'm like, I gotta get big. So I
devote all my time going into the weight room, going
in and balancing the weight room. We're not even balancing
(53:03):
any understanding of what muscle groups do you to work on?
You know, like now in today's world, it's like every
sport has got specific things that they're working on a
lot of core or you know, upper body Laura. But
I was just going in there and I'm doing everything
that an Auburn football strength coach is telling me to do.
So I go from two hundred and forty five pounds,
(53:25):
I get up to two hundred and eighty pounds when
I get to my senior year. Yeah, I mean I
look like an NFL player. I was huge, and I
go out to start the first game, you know, put
some good numbers up in the preseason. As two or
three games go by, I get winded after four minutes
and coach has to Coach Ellis says to take me out.
(53:46):
So I remember, Mama do Enji was a freshman coming in,
so he kept getting the call, and I remember just
looking at I was on the bench watching him play.
He was doing really well, and I'm like going, how
the hell am I getting out of the game, And
I kept thinking it was something about Coach Allison and like,
and I was like, what is this? And I had
actually taken myself out with all the pressure, and so
all my stats and everything were lower my senior year
(54:10):
than my junior year. And I just remember that it
was probably around Christmas or you know, there was a
break coming. I remember we were at a practice and
coach Ellis came up to me and he was just
like very stern, and he's like, damn it, you are
strong enough. Get the hell out of the weight room.
I don't want ever want to see you in that
rate weight room the rest of the year. And I
(54:32):
still kept thinking to myself, like I got to make
this happen. And then of course over the season, I
just kept gotting to the point where I couldn't even
get in the game because I couldn't even stay you know,
partio ready. And then of course my when I went
and played pro my first year out, I got back
to two fifty, lost all the weight got and I
got back to myself.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Get We'll get to that in a second. So your
your last game, your senior year, where was it.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Last game? We didn't make it into the NIT or
anything that year, And I remember I was just being
so upset at the idea that Auburn was on the
quarter system at that time, and again as we weren't
a basketball school and that we lived for March Madness.
We were more of a football school that when the
basketball team got into March, we all wanted to have
(55:22):
our break and go home. And it just it upset
me that, like, this is my senior year, this is
the end of it. And I think that was in
I think it was the tournament that year was in Nashville,
and I just remember at the end of it just thinking,
you know, I can't believe I let this senior year
end like this, and it just felt crappy. You know.
(55:44):
I remember going out in the SEC tournament. We were out,
you know, afterwards, and this one person came up to
me was like, oh man, you Pap Burke, and I'm like, kid,
I was like, oh, I picked you for my Fantasy
League SEC team because you were the leading you were
the leading rebounder, coming back into your scene your year
and it's like what happened? And I'm like, yeah, thanks
(56:05):
the whole what happened? Like, I was like, you know,
there's such a story there that I overthought, you know,
going back to what you were saying, like four or
five minutes ago. It's like I wasn't in the moment.
I was thinking too far into the future and doing
so I cut myself out.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
How long after your senior year did you realize that
it was you not Coach Ellis? Oh?
Speaker 3 (56:30):
It was probably two or three years later.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
Yeah, because I would say, so my you know, my
junior year I led the country, insists, But it's actually
I played the fewest minutes per game of any year
in my career because I got into Coach's doghouse right,
and I had after my first year there, I came back.
I mean I was ready and I was killing it,
(56:55):
but I got a technical in a Florida Atlantic game
at eighteen assists. But I had a bad technical and
we lose in some crazy shit. And then we play
UCLA and actually got thrown out of the game, and
someone is managing my emotions. But you know, again, like
when I look back at what I like, I struggle
to watch myself play in college because guys played off
me because it couldn't shoot. But like forever I would
(57:19):
you know, you have that you get done with college
and you're like if you wouldn't have fucking taken me
out every time I've missed a shot. I would have
been able to make shots. On the other hand, like
I realized that I would work and work and work
every off season. And then I also went through the
getting too big so you couldn't shoot right, put on
too much muscle. And then the other part is like
you get into practice and you start working less on
(57:42):
your game and on shooting and your mentality, and then
you go through practice where you don't take shots in
live action. So you get in the game and of
course you're not going to take shots right, So I
would say it's the same thing, right, It's like it's
like really two years for me before I was like,
you know what, it wasn't him, it was me. Yeah,
And like that's the sign of ultimate maturity when you
(58:04):
start pulling the finger in like, yeah, that was that's
my bad, that's that's the coach that that.
Speaker 3 (58:10):
Uh so that that was in ninety seven and then
ninety eight, Peyton and myself we got married. We met
at school and I remember I invited all the guys
and I didn't invite coach Jealous because I had a
grudge thinking it was him, and I remember like a
year after that, I went, I was on campus and
you know, I had a great relationship with him and
(58:30):
his family, and his son came up to me and
just blatantly just said, why didn't you invite my dad
to your wedding? And I had some bullshit excuse, you know,
not owning the fact that I made something up, and
so he uh sorry. He ended up he ended up
(58:51):
giving me probably a seated understanding to start thinking, why
did you Why did you do that? You know, because
every time I look at my wedding photos and all
the all the fun that we had, you know, like
all these great people that were around my life at
the time, Marty Waters, all of my teammates and all
that were there, and it's like Coach wasn't there, and
it was because of my grudge. And I realized that
(59:12):
whenever I look at those photos sometimes I realized, like
the people that weren't there, and I'm going, you know,
I made some shit up, you know, and I have
to own that.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
I'd say. For part one of my talk with with
Pat Burke, of course, that's the growing up high school
and college experience. How did he make it overseas how
did he make it in the NBA, what was that
lifestyle like? And the juxtaposition of the two and the
lessons learned along the way, In addition to which we're
(59:44):
going to try and fix USA basketball as we get
ready for next year's Olympics. All that is upcoming a
reminded of the Doug Outleid shows daily three to five
Eastern time on Fox Sports Radio the iHeartRadio app of
Fox Sports Tradio dot com. Of course, that's noon to two.
I also have a daily podcast called in the Bonus.
You can check that out. That's all sports, not just basketball.
(01:00:04):
Matter of fact, this time of year, obviously we rarely
talk basketball, but it's good stuff and a reminder will
drop Part two probably in about two days by thanks
to Pat Burke. That's part one. I'm Doug Gottlie. This
is all ball
Hey, and welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Doug Gottlieb, and you are listening to All Ball,
and I find our next guest or our next couple
of pods to be perfect for, among other things, this
time of year, you know, one of the things that
you're hearing or you're actually seeing as I'm watching highlights
from the NBL, which of course you're going down to
(00:30):
Australia and parts of New Zealand, or some of these
young basketball players instead of playing college basketball or overtime
Elite or the G League ignite, they're they're taking their
talents down there and using that as a prep to
the NBA. I find it fascinating to see so many
avoiding the college experience. Now, there's a lot that goes
(00:50):
into the college experience. There's a lot that goes into
or why I think college athletics, college basketball in particular
is still in incredibly valuable for so many, even the
most talented athletes. And the argument that well, they're not
getting paid, that argument has been made moot. But why
(01:13):
not bring on a guest who's experienced the life of
late bloomer athletically, a late bloomer in basketball who went
through the college process who played some in the NBA
but really made it a name for himself playing overseas,
and what that is entirely like, what that lifestyle is like,
and what the lifestyle is like of making it to
(01:33):
the NBA in the juxtaposition of the two. Pat Burke
is going to be my guest the next couple podcasts.
Pat's the first ever Irish born player to play in
the NBA. Of course, he grew up mostly in the States,
and you'll get to hear his story. There's a lot
in this right It's the story of a kid late
to basketball, the story of a kid who was finally
(01:53):
coached the right way for his personality, for his mentality,
for his development. The story of a guy who didn't
believe him in himself many times over and then when
he did, maybe got a little bit too full of himself.
There's a lot of meat on this boat. Here's part
one with former European basketball star and of course played
(02:14):
with the Orlando Magic and the Phoenix Suns. The graduate
of the University of Auburn at Burke. Pat, Let's let's start, okay,
So you know when you when anybody like Google searches you,
that doesn't remember he's to play, like, oh, well he's Irish,
but you actually, you know, born in Ireland, but played
(02:36):
played high school basketball in the States, and of course
went to school at Auburn. Give me the give me
the true picture of born raised, what your early childhood
life was like.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So my family left Ireland when I was four. We
moved to Cleveland, Ohio, and like I'd say, like any
typical Irish culture or any any immigrant family that comes in,
I think we were a little shy to go into
sports right away. And I think my I said, my
(03:08):
initial organized sports experience was I was sitting in our
kitchen in Cleveland and my aunt, my dad's sister, actually
brought my cousin David into the kitchen with him, and
then she just started talking about and signed them up
for ice hockey. And I can just remember like the
room went completely quiet, Like my dad like looked up
from probably his little cup of tea, like what are
(03:31):
you talking about? Like how are we going to get
involved in ice hockey? And so then the next focus
was my aunt Patricia asked me, She said, pat would
you like to play? And I looked up at my
parents and they said, you know, you can if you want.
And I went and started playing ice hockey for and
they started playing for about eight years.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Amazing. What you know, it's your family, you know, and
you immigrating over here. It's almost like a throwback to
the stories of like my grandparents and great grandparents. In
terms of your experience. What is that experience like of
being an immigrant family in Cleveland, Ohio? Shoot me the
picture of your childhood, because I'm my mind is going
(04:12):
in different places. I wonder what it's like.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So I let you say. The menu was completely Irish.
A lot of Irish stew a lot of shepherds by
we stayed, I'd say, unto ourselves, a lot of Irish family.
So family, get toghere.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
It was where in Cleveland side I grew.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
I grew up in really three towns from Bay Village,
Rocky River, and Avon Lake, so west side of Cleveland.
My dad got into you know, construction, landscaping. He opened
up a you know a number of different businesses at
that time. I remember anything that was going on in school,
(04:54):
bake sales. My mom was bringing it, not chocolate chip
cookies like all the other American kids. We had scones.
A lot of kids going you know, what the hell
are those? Yeah, just very Irish, you know. As a
kid just going back and forth to Ireland. Vacations were
not you know, going out west, not going to Hawaii,
not going to California, not going to Florida. We were
(05:14):
going back to Ireland pretty much every vacation. We had
to go visit family. When relatives came over, we all
got in the car, you know, met them at the
gate as soon as they got out. It was just
all the aunts and uncles and my parents. I remember
looking at my grandparents their uncles coming over and just
worrying if they brought over Irish sausages and making and
(05:37):
all that good stuff on their carry on. So yeah,
so a lot of it was you know, we joined
Irish heritage clubs, so a lot of the culture was
not just reinforced through getting together, but through music and
just celebrating you know, Irish heritage. Even sports, if people
don't know, a lot of Irish sports is really onto
(05:59):
itself as well. All the most popular sports are in
the Gaelic Athletic Association. There's the Irish football, which is
much different than American football, and then hurling and so
whenever they have the all Ireland like the it would
be like the epitome of the Super Bowl for the
United States. I remember at that time, VHS tapes would
show up, and they were different versions of VHS. So
(06:22):
I remember, like we go down into my uncle's basement
like a television was turned upside down with some sort
of connection to see a scrambled black and white video
of someone's scoring a goal from my dad's county or something,
and everyone's screaming. So yeah, so it was. It was
probably a lot a lot more different than most of
(06:43):
my friends in our neighborhood and what we experienced.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's interesting the hockey element because when you became widely
considered the best center in Europe, right, you know, later
on in life, a lot of it was about your
moved exception. Well, and it's interesting because a lot of
the I don't want to get into this kind of
a little bit further, a lot of the reason European
bigs have kind of taken over. I think there's a
(07:10):
lot of different reasons, but one is, as you know,
play soccer for practice, right in terms of agility, how
much do you think the hockey helped you in terms
of your basketball and your movement for man your size.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I'd say, well, a lot of the So let's just
say there's the tactical and the technical. So the technical
side of things I played as a kid, so I
probably didn't study tapes or anything on any greats like
Wayne Gretzkiray thing. So the tactical side of things would
have been, you know, understanding, you know where to be
(07:43):
on defense, uh, you know, again, supporting the team, knowing
how to play even I mean the terminology wasn't help side,
but understanding, you know, kind of the the different spart
the different parts of strategy inside of the game would
have been. But again is on the on the physical side,
you know, yes I had size, but I remember the
(08:03):
transition into basketball, different muscle groups. You know, there was
no vertical jump there. It was just you know, flat,
just not being able to barely touch the rim at
the time and realizing that. You know, I did bring
a competitive nature and it was very physical, but again,
five fouls right away in a game is not gonna
(08:23):
contribute to someone staying on the floor and actually developing
into a standout player right away.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
So when did you make the transition to basketball? How
old were you.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So I was around fourteen. I had a huge growth
spurt in one summer. I remember I moved from when
we were just sharing earlier. I moved from Rocky River
Davon Lake. And during that summer, I remember, you know,
I was I was just a hockey fanatic. I played spring, summer,
winter fall leagues all the time. And during that growth spurt,
(08:57):
I remember my mom just we went into you know,
at the time, in those communities, you'd have equipment swaps,
and so you'd find someone in the neighborhood who had
their garage and they would, you know, you bring your skates,
your helmet, your you know whatever you were not fitting anymore,
and you'd put your stuff on the table and you'd
exchange it for the next size up. And all my
stuff was at the end of the table, and so
(09:17):
there was no more exchange. And so then I remember
my mom was like, well, we got to figure out
something else. And initially then for that summer I found
out I grew seven inches. So I went from eighth
grade leaving at five ten and then moving into this
new town and you know, understanding the sports, of course,
(09:37):
it creates an opportunity for you to meet friends. My
mom wanted me to join other sports even though hockey
was not going to be on the future plans. So
I decided I wasn't going to play, and I stayed
the whole summer inside my basement just playing video games
with my brothers, and I grew at seven inch. I
went from you know, from five ten to six five
(09:57):
in one summer, and then she signed me up for
a mayor and football.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
So what video games? That's not just the most important.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah thing, right, like just block graphics. It was like
Nintendo at the time, so everything.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Natarium. I'm trying to think, because when Nintendo came out, right,
it was Super Mario Brothers, Zelda. But then you also
had like Double Dribble, Techno Bowl, RBI Baseball. But again
you know your immigrant family, you're playing hockey course, uh
with Blades of Steel was the first big hockey game,
which was amazing. It was a great game.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah. Yeah, so a lot of a lot of those
type games, you know, like at Christmas you'd get you know,
it just fitted with hockey gear, hockey theme stuff. So like, yeah,
the video games, you know, again with Super Mario Brothers.
Just basically I was a kid. I didn't have an
extreme focus on one thing, so I probably played you know, Metroid,
all types of yeah, yeah, all those games. Yeah. My
(10:56):
brothers and I would just battle it out.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So now you're gonna playotball and you're this gangly there's
no one grows seven inches and it's completely coordinated right away,
that's right. How did football go your freshman year?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It did not go well? So I showed up two
weeks late for the conditioning, you know, new kid. So
I remember I went into the high school office signed
up for the sport, and then they gave me the
equipment the day one. So I'm putting on all this
gear I've never put on before. I'm walking across the
parking lot over to this shady oak tree where all
(11:30):
the guys are, you know, they're the rest period between
the two days. And this guy comes up and he's like, whoa,
you know, how tall are you? Like you're huge? And
I remember, now in eighth grade I had left I
was five ten, so I'm mentally still thought I was
five to ten. So as I come up to them,
I'm like, I'm five ten and these guys are like, dude,
(11:52):
there's something wrong with this guy. You know, what the hell,
what's he talking about. So this guy comes out, He's like,
can't be five ten, I'm six two, and I'm looking
up at you, and I'm like, I don't feel any different,
you know. So it was just it was, you know,
really being closed minded about the fact that, you know,
I was still the same kid. And so then I
remember after that practice, I went home checked my height,
(12:13):
you know, just to found a little spot in the
in the kitchen, and measures found out that I grew
seven inches. Went up to my mom, she was in
the kitchen, probably making scones or tea or something, and
I said, Mom, I'm six five and she turned she
was just like, oh Jesus, look at you, you know.
And so then she was all on my aunts and
uncles and relatives in Ireland and just saying like, he's
(12:34):
six ' five. And so at that point I finished
the football season. I started the first year of you know,
my first days of school. I remember walking in and
the world had an influence on me. Then it's just like, hey,
you know what, you should play basketball. Everybody kept telling me,
but I didn't go out. That freshman year had a
lot of you know, lack of confidence, like you said,
like your your motor skills are off, You're just not
(12:56):
feeling yourself. And then the next year I was six seven,
so then starting at starting that again. That next year,
I was like, this is impossible that you know, I'm
six seven. So then but where let's say my freshman year,
you know, let's say ten people during the day kept
telling me you should play basketball. By the time I
was six seven. The sophomore year, it was like twenty
(13:17):
people were telling me. So then I had the I guess,
the courage with everyone telling me I should go out.
I went and tried it out.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Now, how did you play basketball before?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
No?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Not? What is that? What is that experience? Like that
learning curve?
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Like I'll tell you this. I'll tell you this, Doug.
Every time I walk into the gym and I walk in,
I talked to kids, all right, I just I'm just
about to walk into a camp, I get the same feeling.
I look out at the floor, and that first day
ever looking out, I remember I was watching, you know,
kids that have been practicing all their lives. So you'm
watching all this between you know, the legs, dribbling behind
(13:54):
the back, shooting threes with good form, and I still
see it today, and I remember being the kid in
the doorway going what am I doing? Like I don't
know how to do any of this stuff? And so
I went out there. I just you know, I was
shooting two handed. There was no development of anything. You know,
I understood, of course, put the ball in the metal cylinder,
(14:14):
but everything was outside of that. I was just so
far beyond any understanding of how to play the game
with the skill.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So how did you how did you pick it up?
Like what was what was the process by which you
went to go from there to being a Division one
stoship athlete.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So my first I always tell people I had two coaches,
and I think the Good Lord put them in a
certain order for me. My first coach that sophomore year
JV basketball, he you know I made the team. It
was like every day he told me, you know who
I wasn't who I was never going to be, just autocratic,
just you know, righteously telling me, you know you did
(14:54):
this wrong, you're doing this. And before before long I
was didn't even know, but behind my back, I just
the joke of the team. And even on the first
before the very first game, he went around he was
telling everybody their roles. He's like, you know, hey, you know, Fred,
You're you're a point guard. You're going to control the
tempo of the game. You're gonna be our communicator. You're
gonna echo everything that I need to say to the guys.
(15:15):
And they go down the line. You're you know, you're
a three point shooter. You're gonna be the sniper of
the team. And he's still on the power forward and
I was sitting there nervously at the end of this conversation.
I'm like, what's he going to say to me? And
by the time he got to me, my hands are
sitting there sweating, and he just stops and he's pouring
at me and he says, uh, Pat, I never want
to see you dribble the ball. And at that point,
(15:36):
you know, I always tell kids that, like, you know,
the biggest fear kids have is not fitting in. And
I remember at that point I wasn't looking good, feeling good,
or feeling safe, and I was done. I was like,
I'm done with basketball. And the saving grace that I
didn't have to quit is I got I got home
shortly after that couple of weeks, and I remember my
dad was coming in from a cold Cleveland winner and
(15:59):
we're at the kid We're at the enter table. I'm
the youngest of six, so myself, my next older brother, Nile,
We're sitting at our kitchen table. My dad said to
my mom, Nile myself, he said, would you guys consider
moving to Florida? And I was like, I will pack
my bags right now, like I'm so done. I just
don't want to be in this situation anymore. And so
(16:19):
we moved shortly after that. Halfway through that JV basketball season,
moved down to Cape portl Florida. I walked into school
thinking basketball was so far removed, never had to go
through that embarrassment again. As soon as I walked in
the door at six seven, I think the first kid
that saw me was like, whoa, I'll tell you and
I'm like, I'm six seven. And he just ran down
(16:40):
the hall and he was like, we're gonna win the
state championship and I was like, no, don't know. And
it just spread, It spread like wildfire, like every class
people thought I was being humble. They're like, you know,
how you know, can you dunk? And I was like no,
I can't. And they're like he's lying, he's lying, he's amazing,
and I'm like, no, guys, I I don't even play,
(17:01):
and nobody would take my word for it. And so
then at the end of the day, I'm walking down
the hall like ready to go home, like this is
the worst situation I could have ever imagined with the reset,
and this gentleman taps my shoulder and I turn and
he says, hey, are you the new guy? And I said, yes, sir,
i am. And he said, hey, you want to go
down to the gym and shoot some hoops? And I
(17:24):
mean his voice came out of me like I'm not
a basketball player, and he said, well, I didn't say
you were. I just wanted to get to know you.
You want to go shoot some hoops with me, I'm
coach Marty Waters and I'm like, okay, I know this routine.
I'll go down there, I'll start shooting. You'll realize out
of the gym and he's like, hey, Pat, you ever
shut over here on the elbow and I'm like, yeah,
(17:46):
I've shot there. So he's like, let's take some shots.
So I start shooting brick airball, brick and he's rebounding.
I mean, he's just running around getting these rebounds. And
he comes up to me and he's like, hey, you
have a nice soft touch. And I'm like, is there
something wrong with this guy? Like what are you talking about?
(18:06):
I just bricked every shot. And so he told me
that the varsity coach from that school he was unlike
high school, had contacted him that I was coming down,
that I was a project player, and he told him
that I had played eight years of ice hockey. So
I was pleasantly surprised that, you know, someone had actually
taken that initiative to call. And so Coach Water said
(18:28):
to me, he said, hey, what if I can set
this up where everyone understand that you know you've played
ice hockey and that you're out here to do your best,
and I promise you that there won't be any expectations.
And I was like, okay, I'm going to go for it.
So he brings in the team, you know, the next
day or I come to one of the practices and
he's like, hey, guys, this is Pat you just moved
down here. He's six ' seven, he played eight years
(18:50):
of ice hockey, and I guarantee if we were on
ice right now, he probably slammed you all onto a wall.
You'd never be able to stand up. He would skate
circles around you, he said, but he's transitioning over to basketball,
and I think if we help him, he'll help us.
And it was like one of the coolest moments because
I was like, Wow, I wish I had that every
time I walked into something new. And so then as
(19:15):
that season started going, you know, I didn't play that
much that scene that transitioned into that sophomore second half.
But then by the spring and summer, and I was
around my house and I just remember the phone rang
and my mom would come to me and like, Pas, Pat,
there's someone named Michael on the phone. I'm like, Mom,
I don't know Michael, and she'd be like, well, someone's
on the phone, So I go pick it up. He's like, Pat, Hey,
(19:37):
it's Mike. You know. Coach told me to come pick
you up. We're gonna go play over here at Fort
Myers Beach. I'm like okay, So they picked me up.
As soon as I get home, somebody else would call
me and they'd be like, hey, you know, hey, this
is John. Coach told me to pick you up, about
to go shooting the driveway, and slowly I started to
you know, get an understanding. I was going kinesthetically through
(19:58):
the motions. But then Coach Water kept asking me these
thought provoking questions. And even my dad, you know, I
didn't have this sense of like asking these type of
questions in this leadership space. So he kept asking me, like,
what would you like to do in life? And I'm like,
you know, my my my life is pretty destined to
you know, be a landscape like my dad. I don't
think I'm going to be playing basketball. And he said, well,
(20:21):
I think you know that you're still growing, and I
think that maybe there's an opportunity, you know, even even
a small college could come look at you. And I
was like, this guy, whatever sods about my senior year.
I'm you know, I'm six ' eleven and he's you know,
has changed everything in me. I have the confidence where
I'm out in the driveway and I'm practicing all the time.
You know, I'm at night, I'm taking my mom's lamps
(20:43):
out in the driveway and I'm turning them on. Neighbors
are walking by, They're seeing me working on post moves,
and they're probably thinking they're going this guy what's what's
he thinking? He's not going anywhere? And then you know,
college has started to come in and talk to me.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
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Speaker 2 (21:09):
How good was your team your senior year.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
I think we had a lot of potential, uh, the chemistry.
You know, this was marin or high school back in
you know that that would have been the ninety one
ninety two year, so a lot of a lot of
kids were moving in, uh at that time, so it
wouldn't be unfamiliar to see like new kids moving in
every week. So I think that we had put together,
(21:34):
you know, a fairly good looking team on a poster,
and I think it was like six eleven, like six
eight sixty six sixty six. You know, there's just a
lot of real good height. But we never really got
to that level. I think that we were I think
we were you know, too young at the time to realize,
you know, what we what we could have been doing.
But coach Waters did a great job, of course, of
(21:56):
you know, setting up a great schedule for us. We
went out and we played in a bunch of tournaments.
But I think it was all based on the fact
that you know, I hadn't I hadn't developed, or I
hadn't reached my full potential, you know. So a lot
of times I would have these like freakish stats where
you know, you'd have like eleven blocks one game, and
then one game you'd have like five rebounds, and you'd
(22:17):
have like, you know, eighteen rebounds. So the consistency wasn't there.
You know, at that time, I probably wasn't setting any
goals as far as like how the team would actually
become better. I was only working just on how do
I become better? You know, technically.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Okay, so then take me through the recruiting proces. By
the way, is what was your coach's name, Coach Marty Waters.
Is he still alive? He is, She's still coaching.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
He's not coaching though.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
That's pretty amazing though. The understanding, the emotional intelligence it
takes to understand what a kid has, what a kid needs,
and how to support him, Like that's really remarkable because
your first coach, you know, in Cleveland, like that's how
a lot of that generation coach, right is break them down,
build them back up, and just some kids you can't
(23:07):
because internally they've already broken themselves back down.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You know, yeah, I totally agree. I think that, you know,
looking back now my hindsight and seeing it is there's
this theory that a gentleman came up with, like in
the sixties, is called transformative learning theory, and it's one
of the most disruptive ways to actually get people to learn.
And most of it is done through not addition and
(23:32):
that old school way that I've recognized that you know,
a large portion of people are still doing this. They're
coaching but telling people what to do. You know, you'll
see a coach on the sideline telling a kid, I
told you a thousand times, you got a box out,
and you're going, yeah, you're not even hearing yourself. You're
saying you told them a thousand times, But you didn't
realize after two or three that what you're doing isn't
working as far as an impact. To create transformative learning,
(23:55):
you know, to actually speak or work with someone to
actually have them turn into something else. So Marty Waters
was doing was he was actually having me subtract bad
habits and so that's really what the you know, transformative
theory works on a lot of like let's go back
to when you first thought something, and then let's figure out,
you know, the most effective way to do it and
and doing so. Like after I left, I kept going
(24:18):
it was something about the way Coach Waters would communicate,
and I kept thinking about it, and then you know, here,
now I'm almost fifty years old, I actually studied all
of that ways he was doing. And that's how I
work with with youth and individuals, whether it's in business
or in basketball, is actually going through those same you know,
let's say, methods of actually working with others finding out
(24:42):
their truth, not the one that I'm seeing from you know,
from from this person point of view perspective. I'm actually
you know, figuring out how do we share a grounded reality.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Okay, your recruitment to Auburn, how that? How'd that go down?
Speaker 3 (24:55):
So, uh, you know, pretty much late in the game,
moved down to Florida. As you know, now today's world,
I mean, they'll find a kid when he's twelve, you know,
like in a remote country of the world. So nobody
knew that there was this six ' eleven guy in
Cape Coral. So coach Marty Waters came up. I think
the one practice I broke a backboard and he came
(25:20):
on a dunk, not a shot. So he came up
to me and he said, Hey, I'm gonna send this
out to I don't even know I can't remember who
the coach is at the time, and he was like, Hey,
I'm gonna send this out to this coach. I think
that you know that they should come look at you.
And I was like okay. And you know, he was
taking care of all of the handling of communication. So
then small colleges started to send letters and so I
(25:44):
started getting recruited by Winthrop, went also to Stetson, went
to Ucor, I got UCF with Joe Dean. Tommy Joe
Eagles was at Auburn at the time and his coach,
coach Haddocks, was the one that was actually you know,
showing up on campus to take a look set the
loyal and marimunt out in California was also communicating with
(26:07):
me at the time.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
That was back when LMU was was was was run
up and down and win the games.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, so why Auburn? Uh, Tommy Joe Eagles, he when
he came in his presence was one that I knew.
I was like, you know what, there's something about him.
I really trusted everything that he was saying. He could
see that I was a project. He was probably the
main reason when I visited the university, I was like,
(26:38):
this is beautiful. It was probably the most quiet of
all my visits. Most of them they were all trying
to like take me out. American University was another one,
so a lot of them were just taking me out,
you know, showing me kind of the social scene. When
I got to Auburn, it was like I went out
with the guy who was graduating, christ brandt Uh and Chris.
You know, he basically just showed me around and went
(26:59):
to a restaurant, We went to a pet shop to
grab some food for his fish. After after going through
all of it, I was like, I think this is
the one, you know. But then there was one more thing,
Doug that you know, it really nipped me in the ass.
Was the starting center was Chris going out at the time,
(27:19):
and the next guy in line, I think it was
a guy named Aaron Swinson who was six ' four
and so my belief was, Hey, I'm six to eleven,
I'm coming in here, I'm going to start what.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
About your parents, Like they hadn't experienced any of this,
none of it? What was what was there? What was
their influence like on your decision?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
So going back to we were sharing kind about the
leadership side of the things, is I think the benefit
of my dad not knowing anything was there was no
tampering in any of Coach waters beliefs or his techniques.
So he basically was like, hey, Coach Waters, here's my son.
(27:58):
Please do your best to help them with this. And
so my dad never got involved in you know, like
trying to shoot the drive with me or putting me
through ball handling stuff. He just didn't know. You know, again,
is growing up irish? You know, like there was a
lot of things that were the you know, initially whenever
we did something it was the first time doing it.
So me going through basketball, I think that he knew
(28:20):
his place was like, Hey, I'm going to support my
son and I'm not going to sit here and give
him some sort of advice that you know doesn't translate.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
But again, and I don't want to be presumptuous because
I don't know your family dynamic. My guess would be
irish immigrant family that it was a some sort of
push of hey, if you're going to do it, you're
going to do it right, right, You're going to do
like there's a I mean, I think one of the
things that has changed, and it's it's it's I think
(28:50):
most of it is actually our generation because we're the
parents now, right, is the questioning of teachers, the questioning
of coaches, the questioning of leadership. Yeah, in your upbringing,
was there any what was what was your you know, like, look,
my dad wasn't he was grandson of immigrants. But it's
like people ask like why did you get good grades
(29:12):
in high school? Well? I didn't have any other choice,
you know, why did you work hard beasketball? I didn't
have any other choice? What was what was even though
he wasn't involved in the day to day what was
this influence? Like academically and in terms of your work ethic, So.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Academically it would have been you know, the great reports
coming home. You know, he'd sit down with you and
just you know, communicate like you know what's going on here?
You know, And again it was it wouldn't be more
of a question. It would be like you can do better,
and you'd feel you'd feel an understanding of if there
was disappointment, you know, that would be something that would
(29:47):
burn inside of you and you'd know, you know, you'd
made some choices that you know got in the way
of you know, studying for tests or doing assignments. As
far as the work ethic in games, I I think,
you know, just seeing my dad work as hard as
he could, you know, to make ends meet. You know,
I'm the youngest of six, so I saw the older
(30:08):
three going off to college, my mom and dad making
ends meet that I don't think I ever was coached
in energy or effort. It just you know, I went
as hard as like even when I played pro. I
just I never would have thought once to like drop
at a level. And I think that comes from again,
is like when you're when you're growing up, and it's
(30:29):
just what you see. You never see anybody taking a
day off. You just you're always going as hard as
you can. And I think that that's one of the
things that even when my dad, mom and dad saw
me in games. I don't remember my mom and dad
ever after a game going oh you really had good energy,
you know, it would because it wasn't ever put in there.
It was just like, you know, you did you did
well with this, and what did your coach say about this?
(30:51):
So a lot of a lot of going back to,
you know, kind of at the abstract of today's world
with parents, you know, saying and giving their opinion. My
parents would have been like, well, what did coach Waters
say about this? Or what does he think about that?
And as soon as he would I would share what
it was, it would be like, that's what you're going
to do, you know. And so I think that my
parents really partnered with my coach, you know, and anybody
(31:14):
who was involved as far as you know, just creating
a larger sense of team and kind of a uniform
thought process be like okay, let's do that, you know.
So I think that, you know, after games and stuff,
my mom and dad would go up to coach Waters
and shake his hand and just there was a lot
of understanding that this was not happening because you know,
(31:34):
a rock hit me in the head and all of
a sudden, you know, I understood how to do a
drop step. You know. It was like they knew that
he was investing a lot of time and now that
all these coaches and colleges were coming in that he
was the influence that was making it happen.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So you go to Auburn, What do you remember about
showing up on campus?
Speaker 3 (31:53):
So I'm sitting there my mom and dad we drive
the nine hours up there. I have a trunk that
has two pair of jeans, a couple of T shirts.
My dad hands me two hundred dollars and he says,
make this work, and I'm like, wow, this is a
lot of money. I fixed my room up all of
(32:13):
fifteen minutes, and then I remember there's a knock at
my door and Aaron Swinson, the six ' four second
coming of Charles Barkley, says, hey, you're the new guy Pat.
I'm like yeah, yeah. So I meet him. I'm like, hey,
nice to meet you. He's like, hey, we're gonna go
play some pickup down at the gym, and I said okay.
(32:33):
So I'm sitting there and I'm getting nervous because no
one's seen me play. I've never seen them play. And
in one pickup game, Aaron Swinson dunks on me about
fifteen times and I have.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
No I have no You're like, what am I doing here?
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah? I'm like, what am I doing and immediately it
just starts crushing me. And then we then most of
the guys show up and they start playing up ball,
and I can't. I can't hold my own I can't
even stop any of the guys. You know, I'm about
I'm six ' eleven and I'm just probably it's a
little over two hundred pounds, so I'm like, I'm a
(33:11):
skeleton and they're just taking advantage of me. And then
before long, I'm not even getting picked up in the games.
So I remember, you know, I'd sit there and I'd
try to voice saying I got downs, and they wouldn't
even listen to me. They would actually play five on
five and they go, let's just run it back, and
so that after a while, I just went into the
locker room and I just started watching television, you know,
(33:32):
every day in preseason. And then one of the coaches
came in was like, you know, what are you doing.
Why aren't you out there playing? And I was like,
I've been out there for you know, a week and
a half. They won't let me on the court, and
so then they just kept telling me like you got
to go out there, and it just it wasn't happening.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So my first month at Notre Dame, do you wear
a Keith tower?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, he lives down here in Orlando.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Okay, So Heith had graduated, but he and Lafonso Ellis,
a couple other guys came back and Keith was Keith's
whole thing was like he it was his pickup game.
So he's like, little guy, you ain't got no credit
algy you can't get on this court. So a Notre
(34:21):
Dame and I think it's where their practice facilities now
is have what's called the pit, and the pit is
you know the Joyce Center now I figure what it's
called now, but they have several auxiliary gyms and the
main auxiliary gym is down kind of below in the
battels of the arena and it's a nice setup and
that's where we play pickup ball. And so Keith kind
(34:44):
of ran the pit even though he'd already kind of graduated.
And it was the same thing like I couldn't get
on the court. Now. It wasn't that I was bad,
it was that I was a freshman and I was,
I'm sure, kind of cocky and I was told like
I was, I was brought in to be the starting
point guard, and at some point, like I couldn't get
on the court, so I did the opposite of what
you did. I stood at the free throw line and
(35:06):
just wouldn't move, And these fucking guys start playing without me,
and I'm like, dude, I came here to play, so
I'm going to play. And Keith, you know, Keith would
just have him keep playing for a while. Finally, like
Freddy McCaffrey came down, he's like, wells, we gotta get
Ayboddy in here. You know. It's like and I think
they probably pulled Keith aside, like, look, dude, I get it.
(35:28):
You know you're the older guy, You're the NBA player
at this time, like you gotta let the guys play.
But I completely know the know, the feeling of not
feeling like you're fitting in belonging. Yeah, and it's really
all right. Then it gets worse because then I'm sure
when you started practice, you're like, holy crap, I've even
more lost.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yeah. Yeah, So then we start practice. We started doing drills,
and Tommy Joe Eagles before practices, he'd you know, we'd
warm up, stretch at half court. We'd have a big
circle and he'd walk around, he'd visit with everybody, and
he come up to me and be like, hey, Biggin,
you're a right biggin. And I'm just like sitting there like,
(36:09):
oh yeah, I'm good, and he's like you sure, you know,
cause he's getting all the report. But I couldn't see
that big macro plan. I was like sitting there just
in the micro going I don't see it. And every
time I talk to my mom or dad, I'm like,
I don't think I'm supposed to be here. My dad
just like stop, just stop, you know, And I'm like,
(36:33):
you don't understand, like they're not letting me play. I'm
in hearing when I'm going into practice, I don't understand,
like why I can't keep up with everybody, And just
you know, I never even took a snapshot of these
guys and said, you know, what was their experience, Like
what did they do in the year before in the
weight room? What do they do as far as like
you know, getting faster lateral quickness. To me, it was
(36:53):
just like this is never going to actually improve because
I had never stepped into any other way of being
more effective. So it was like someone was like coach, coach,
Eagles was like telling me, hey, look, there's a bunch
of different approaches that you haven't even taken yet. With
your nutrition and strength training and all of this. You
know you're coming in here, you know, like a skeleton.
(37:15):
But you know, within that first year, I think I
left there my freshman year with like twenty five pounds
of muscle.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
How much did you play?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I didn't a red shirt. I read shirted that first year.
My roommate, Lance Weims was mister Alabama for basketball, mister
Alabama for football, mister Alabama for baseball. He was like
everyone's all American. So he played that year and so
I just I just you know, I went out, I
suited up, and I you know, went through the layup
(37:43):
lines with the guys warming up, and I just saw
this tough year of just Auburn basketball, Like, let's let's
see what Auburn basketball is in the SEC and all
these non conference games, Let's see what the country thinks.
And that's when I started to really put it together.
I'm like, wow, this is a football school.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
It was. It was a football school. By the way,
your roommate who was mister basketball and everything, did he
play professionally in any of the sports.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
He didn't. You know, he at the end of his
senior year, so he graduated a year before me. He
had an offer to play in England, and the year
before he had gotten married, and he, you know, was
sitting there going, do I put you know, four or
five years into this and then lose where I could
be in the professional setting if I go get a job.
(38:30):
And so you know, I think he just became very
conservative there at the end and he said, no, I'm
gonna I'm just going to start work.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Do you things come to mind with that one. It's
that you talk about different guys running their own race,
right like he was. He was on a completely different
path coming out of high school, right, and you become
the top center in Europe. That's that's amazing. But the
other part too, it is and like this this is
(38:59):
at lant that I'm glad that he got. He understood
and I know you understand, is like we have completely
devalued the relationship you can build with your university to
use it to get that first and all your jobs.
And you know it's I do think our generation, a
(39:20):
good portion of us get it. But for whatever reason,
you know, college has just become about how much can
I get how quickly can I get it, and not
realizing the ramifications of the next fifty years of your life.
You know. It's like, that's why I went to Notre Dame.
Was I went to Notre Dame because if it didn't
work out, domers take care of domers. And what I
(39:43):
found is Oklahoma State people are unbelievably loyal when you're
loyal to them. But now we have these guys, these
transient guys, and they play at three or four schools.
We're like, hey, when it's over, what are you going
to call it a job? You know? Anyway, So the
red shirt year it hit. And there's another part is
like red shirt ear is like a bad word to
(40:04):
kids now, Like sometimes you need a year to develop,
to figure it out, to grow, to understand what you're
doing every day, to feel comfortable. But you know this
is twenty five years ago. So the set your sophomore year,
your second year, your red shirt freshman year. What was
that season like?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
So just before that, I end that year. I remember
we go home for spring break. I come back and
my roommate Lands says, hey, let's go to the gym
and shoot this is my freshman year. After the season's
all over, and I said, okay, so I was feeling good.
I was like, hey, let me see that ball real quick.
And I get the ball. I take like one dribble
and I go up and I just slammed the crap
out of it. And he looks at me and he's like,
(40:47):
holy shit. And I was like, dude, I feel really good.
And next thing you know, I'm just wind milling it
and doing anything. I'm like, what just happened? And I
hadn't realized that, you know, everything I had been doing
in the weight room and nutrition wise was paying off.
I mean the nutrition side of it. It was like you're
coming out of class and you have a three pm scheduled,
go eat four peanut butter sandwiches at the weight room.
(41:09):
So then coming back. I leave that summer and my
dad was still a subscription member to an Irish newspaper
called The Echo. And at the back end of the
Echo he sees this advertisement. It says, all Irish basketball
players call here or something. So he makes the call
(41:29):
and I get on to this Irish World University team's
or the World University Games team. And when I get there,
It's the funniest thing is I get to reinvent myself.
Like none of the guys from Auburn are there, so
when I get there, all the Irish guys are like, oh,
you're amazing, this is great, and we have a lot
of Irish Irish Americans as well. And I just started
(41:53):
playing more dominant with that team. And then when I
come back then that year that you're sharing the sophomore
or my freshman year. The second year, I remember going
through the preseason and everybody, Wesley Person, Aaron Swintson, all
these guys are coming. You're like, dude, you are not
even the same person. And it was just that one
(42:14):
moment to get away to realize like at that time,
I you know, we played the USA team and practices,
we played all these other teams and I was getting,
you know, some attention, and it was like wow. You know,
sometimes you go under a little hypnosis thinking the environment
is telling you who you are, but it's like that's bullshit.
It's like you don't have to listen to what the
environment says. You can actually create that and be in
(42:35):
another environment then come back and all of a sudden,
you know, it's a paradigm shift. So I get I
get more obviously, I get to play. I'm not starting.
I'm not like in some position where you know, Tommy
Joe is using me amazingly, because at that time most
people don't even know this time of telling me Joe Eagles,
he had Wesley Person was the leading score of the SEC,
(42:57):
Aaron Swinson was a second leading scorer, second rebounder, and
Aubrey Wiley was the leading rebounder. And we probably lost
in conference games on like an average of like two points.
So going into the RUP or going to Tennessee, you know,
playing Jael Mashburn and playing uh, the guys in Tennessee.
We got to Alan Houston, we got to a point
(43:19):
where we're going to every game to the end and
we're just losing by a small margin. And then of
course at the end of that year, Tommy Joe Eagles
got fired, and uh, you know, that year was another
one of those opportunities where you learn so much. All
the guys that I looked up to were graduating, Aaron,
Wesley and Aubrey and they had they had taught us
(43:40):
all like how to work, you know, as hard as
you can and become you know the leaders in the
conference in those categories.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Okay, your coach gets fired right now, everybody leaves. What
was it like for you? Then?
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Uh So then the athletic the athletic director comes up
with David. David Howsley is a Hall and he's like, Pat,
We're we're very interested in hearing your opinion on who
we should be looking for and this, that and the other,
and like, we're looking for a Southern gentleman, Like a
southern gentleman. Why don't we just find somebody who wants
to win and is effective at winning. But anyways, they
(44:16):
had their parameters, and so then we get the call
that coach Cliff Ellis is our coach. She's coming out
from Clemson. And uh, the year before that, that redshirt year,
we actually played Cliff uh in the n I T
in Clemson when they had Searon Wright Chris Whitney. And
so when we play we played them, you know, you
(44:37):
got to see kind of the atmosphere he's about. And
then looking looking back at when they were telling us
Cliff was coming in, we started to look at all
of the big centers in the NBA that he had,
Horace Grant, Uh, you know, Dale Ellis and and all
these guys, and I started sinking, Wow, this guy's really
going to develop bigs. And so he came in and
uh he was. He was all about winning. So immediately
(45:00):
he was like, we had a team meeting and he
just said, look, we are Whatever happened in the past
is the past. This is a new you know, this
is a new movement forward. It's a new group, It's
gonna be a new environment. And it was how is
it different? Uh, the practices I think became more demanding,
(45:21):
you know, really questioning people about understanding the tactics of
the of the game. You know, I think that it
wasn't just going through the motions. And coach Ellis was
extremely hard on us until we learned everything. You know.
He put in a faster paced, full course press. We
went into a one to two on one. I was
the top of it. So I was starting and you know,
(45:44):
my whole goal in the beginning of that was just
to put as much pressure as I could on the ball.
He gave me, you know, the nod to play and
I was like extremely excited and want to do my best.
Forum you know, his coaching staff was great. I think
that also we changed, We've changed the trainer in the
strength room. You know, there was just these subtle differences
(46:06):
that you could tell that this was a bigger I
want to say it was. It was a bigger consistency
throughout the whole year, like you know, like what there
might have been some time off I think in between
Tommy Joe Eagles off season, but with coach Ellis, there wasn't.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
And it feels like and again, Tim, if I'm wrong,
but this is another fresh start for you. Right, you
had the fresh start when you're from Cleveland to Florida.
You had the fresh start when you at Auburn after
your first year when you got to go and and
play at with the Irish national team. Right, and now
you get another fresh start after kind of establishing yourself
(46:47):
as a developmental player and you're much further along. What
was he like to you? What did he tell you?
What was his expectations of you?
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I don't think you ever gave me expectations. I think
it was more you know, he would just you know,
he would come up and he'd not not so much
congratulate you, but he'd confirm or affirm when you were
doing good things. You know, keep doing this, keep doing that.
I don't think till my junior year when we played
in San Juan. He after one game he was just like,
(47:19):
you know, guys, we got a stud on our team.
And I'm looking around the room like who's he talking about?
You know? And we had just beat Louisville in the
finals and they had Samocky Walker and Lewis Simms. And
I remember at that point my junior year, he was like, look,
there's people that coming. They're going to start looking at you.
(47:42):
And I was like, what, Like, you know, I'm just
I'm just playing college ball. Like again, is I think
one of the things that I lacked, and that was
any type of goal that was outside of just that
month or two months, you know. Like you know, I
see a lot of times I see documentaries and I'm like, man,
I wish I could go back and start thinking big
(48:02):
picture more when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Do you know. I mean, like there's the naivete. I
think it's a healthier thing, right like you, I kind
of think all they think now is a big picture,
whereas you don't enjoy the little things, like the little
growth and the other stuff. If you're worried big pic like,
were you a regular student, did you go to the
(48:25):
football games, did you go to parties? Or you know,
were you because because I will tell you now, if
you go to a college campus, they're barely students. And
I'm not saying they don't take classes, but they take
them online. Right, They're at the facility, they're at training
table in front of their computer in the student athlete
like academic area, and very rarely on campus. And to me, like,
(48:50):
I was actually just at my own model and one
of the freshmen was like, yeah, we just I just
moved on my class online, and both me and the
head coach, Mike Boyden, were like, I think you want
you should get to campus, you know, like one of
your days a week, just because there's nothing like winning
a game, a league game, being Oklahoma and then strutting
(49:12):
on campus. Right, that's the ship. That's the best part.
So I understand, like you were like, man, I can't
believe all this stuff was happening around me. I didn't
even know. On the other hand, I don't know. I
think that naivete is super healthy because it allowed you
to enjoy and absorb all this other stuff that's going on.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Yeah, I think when I tell you about my senior year.
I think that that's absolutely spot on, because you know,
being Irish, being an immigrant coming over, when you're coming
from nothing, you have nothing to lose. So I don't
think there was any fear that I was playing with
my junior year. I was just putting it all on
the line, you know, like I was going to parties,
(49:51):
I was going you know, I was going to class,
making sure that I took care of my stuff. So
in a sense, I definitely agree that, you know, my
junior year probably was the end then of me being
in the moment and then I all of a sudden,
I clicked something and a switch went off, and then
I just kind of I was thinking way too much.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
You were thinking too much your senior year. Yeah, yeah, No,
it's a it's a really hard one. I think everybody
kind of goes that. They people wonder why sometimes seniors
don't perform to the level of expectations, and that's why,
because they put too much on them on themselves. I
got to ask, though Irish background, you had to be
a legendary beer drinker.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
And you know, sometimes people will call me former teammates
and they'll tell me a story and I'll be like,
I don't remember that, I'm not co signing that. So
but there will go a lot, especially with the Irish
national team. You know, we have a pilgrimage. We'd go
to the Guinness brewy uh in the summer and h yeah,
there was a lot of really good, good, good memories,
(50:54):
good stories, a lot of beer.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
So okay. I have a friend Dave Redison, works for
the Big ten Network, and he did a semester abroad
and actually played little basketball there and he said, like,
so in Ireland it is a fact. It is not
an arguable fact that the closer to the brewery the
pub is the better the beer. Is that accurate, and
(51:18):
then of course you went to the actual brewery. So
what is what is the reality to the quality of Guinness.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
It's extremely interesting, but I didn't know this until the
first time I went over. There's they said there's three
grades of Guinness. So there's an A, B and C
and most of the time we're drinking beer. C and
A is only brought out during like Saint Patrick's Day
or big festive events. So there probably is a some
(51:46):
sort of radius inside of what you're sharing that you know,
there's only so many of the really good barrels and
kegs coming out of there. But as far as like
having one in Ireland compared to having one in Cleveland,
Ohio or Mount Or, Florida, it's night and day, you know,
Like I was just over. I was just over for
four weeks, got back about four or five days ago,
(52:07):
and it's just a significant difference. Your senior year, well
you remember, so I think once I heard that there
were scouts coming, I was like, you know what, it's
the junior year, Damien or not Damien. Eric Dampier is
kind of at the pinnacle of the draft in it
(52:31):
was at ninety six. So we're at the SEC tournament
and I remember Mississippi State is taking us out. We
made to the second game.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
They went to the final four that year too, so
I mean, it's not like they're a bad team, right right.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
So I'm sitting there and I'm looking at him, and
I'm getting into my defensive position for a free throw
in our basket. He's shooting the free throw and I
remember looking at his forearms and I'm like, Damn, this
guy's big. I'm like, I gotta get big. So I
devote all my time going into the weight room, going
in and balancing the weight room. We're not even balancing
(53:03):
any understanding of what muscle groups do you to work on?
You know, like now in today's world, it's like every
sport has got specific things that they're working on a
lot of core or you know, upper body Laura. But
I was just going in there and I'm doing everything
that an Auburn football strength coach is telling me to do.
So I go from two hundred and forty five pounds,
(53:25):
I get up to two hundred and eighty pounds when
I get to my senior year. Yeah, I mean I
look like an NFL player. I was huge, and I
go out to start the first game, you know, put
some good numbers up in the preseason. As two or
three games go by, I get winded after four minutes
and coach has to Coach Ellis says to take me out.
(53:46):
So I remember, Mama do Enji was a freshman coming in,
so he kept getting the call, and I remember just
looking at I was on the bench watching him play.
He was doing really well, and I'm like going, how
the hell am I getting out of the game, And
I kept thinking it was something about Coach Allison and like,
and I was like, what is this? And I had
actually taken myself out with all the pressure, and so
all my stats and everything were lower my senior year
(54:10):
than my junior year. And I just remember that it
was probably around Christmas or you know, there was a
break coming. I remember we were at a practice and
coach Ellis came up to me and he was just
like very stern, and he's like, damn it, you are
strong enough. Get the hell out of the weight room.
I don't want ever want to see you in that
rate weight room the rest of the year. And I
(54:32):
still kept thinking to myself, like I got to make
this happen. And then of course over the season, I
just kept gotting to the point where I couldn't even
get in the game because I couldn't even stay you know,
partio ready. And then of course my when I went
and played pro my first year out, I got back
to two fifty, lost all the weight got and I
got back to myself.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Get We'll get to that in a second. So your
your last game, your senior year, where was it.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Last game? We didn't make it into the NIT or
anything that year, And I remember I was just being
so upset at the idea that Auburn was on the
quarter system at that time, and again as we weren't
a basketball school and that we lived for March Madness.
We were more of a football school that when the
basketball team got into March, we all wanted to have
(55:22):
our break and go home. And it just it upset
me that, like, this is my senior year, this is
the end of it. And I think that was in
I think it was the tournament that year was in Nashville,
and I just remember at the end of it just thinking,
you know, I can't believe I let this senior year
end like this, and it just felt crappy. You know.
(55:44):
I remember going out in the SEC tournament. We were out,
you know, afterwards, and this one person came up to
me was like, oh man, you Pap Burke, and I'm like, kid,
I was like, oh, I picked you for my Fantasy
League SEC team because you were the leading you were
the leading rebounder, coming back into your scene your year
and it's like what happened? And I'm like, yeah, thanks
(56:05):
the whole what happened? Like, I was like, you know,
there's such a story there that I overthought, you know,
going back to what you were saying, like four or
five minutes ago. It's like I wasn't in the moment.
I was thinking too far into the future and doing
so I cut myself out.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
How long after your senior year did you realize that
it was you not Coach Ellis? Oh?
Speaker 3 (56:30):
It was probably two or three years later.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
Yeah, because I would say, so my you know, my
junior year I led the country, insists, But it's actually
I played the fewest minutes per game of any year
in my career because I got into Coach's doghouse right,
and I had after my first year there, I came back.
I mean I was ready and I was killing it,
(56:55):
but I got a technical in a Florida Atlantic game
at eighteen assists. But I had a bad technical and
we lose in some crazy shit. And then we play
UCLA and actually got thrown out of the game, and
someone is managing my emotions. But you know, again, like
when I look back at what I like, I struggle
to watch myself play in college because guys played off
me because it couldn't shoot. But like forever I would
(57:19):
you know, you have that you get done with college
and you're like if you wouldn't have fucking taken me
out every time I've missed a shot. I would have
been able to make shots. On the other hand, like
I realized that I would work and work and work
every off season. And then I also went through the
getting too big so you couldn't shoot right, put on
too much muscle. And then the other part is like
you get into practice and you start working less on
(57:42):
your game and on shooting and your mentality, and then
you go through practice where you don't take shots in
live action. So you get in the game and of
course you're not going to take shots right, So I
would say it's the same thing, right, It's like it's
like really two years for me before I was like,
you know what, it wasn't him, it was me. Yeah,
And like that's the sign of ultimate maturity when you
(58:04):
start pulling the finger in like, yeah, that was that's
my bad, that's that's the coach that that.
Speaker 3 (58:10):
Uh so that that was in ninety seven and then
ninety eight, Peyton and myself we got married. We met
at school and I remember I invited all the guys
and I didn't invite coach Jealous because I had a
grudge thinking it was him, and I remember like a
year after that, I went, I was on campus and
you know, I had a great relationship with him and
(58:30):
his family, and his son came up to me and
just blatantly just said, why didn't you invite my dad
to your wedding? And I had some bullshit excuse, you know,
not owning the fact that I made something up, and
so he uh sorry. He ended up he ended up
(58:51):
giving me probably a seated understanding to start thinking, why
did you Why did you do that? You know, because
every time I look at my wedding photos and all
the all the fun that we had, you know, like
all these great people that were around my life at
the time, Marty Waters, all of my teammates and all
that were there, and it's like Coach wasn't there, and
it was because of my grudge. And I realized that
(59:12):
whenever I look at those photos sometimes I realized, like
the people that weren't there, and I'm going, you know,
I made some shit up, you know, and I have
to own that.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
I'd say. For part one of my talk with with
Pat Burke, of course, that's the growing up high school
and college experience. How did he make it overseas how
did he make it in the NBA, what was that
lifestyle like? And the juxtaposition of the two and the
lessons learned along the way, In addition to which we're
(59:44):
going to try and fix USA basketball as we get
ready for next year's Olympics. All that is upcoming a
reminded of the Doug Outleid shows daily three to five
Eastern time on Fox Sports Radio the iHeartRadio app of
Fox Sports Tradio dot com. Of course, that's noon to two.
I also have a daily podcast called in the Bonus.
You can check that out. That's all sports, not just basketball.
(01:00:04):
Matter of fact, this time of year, obviously we rarely
talk basketball, but it's good stuff and a reminder will
drop Part two probably in about two days by thanks
to Pat Burke. That's part one. I'm Doug Gottlie. This
is all ball
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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