September 22, 2023 • 55 mins
Doug is joined by former Suns, Magic and EuroLeague veteran Pat Burke to discuss his pre-1998 NBA Draft process, draft night disappointment, why he chose to pass up on an NBA offer with the Knicks to play in the Spanish League, the most difficult part of the transition, why he moved to Greece, how he established his reputation as one of the best bigs in Europe, and why he decided to sign with the Tracy McGrady led Magic, and the story behind their playoff disappointment.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is
all ball. Uh, we continue my conversation with Pat Burke.
Of course, Pat was a star in Foeba basketball, most notably,
I would say, in Spain is where he's most known
for playing and being a being a menace. Of course
played in the NBA with your Orlando Magic and with
(00:27):
the Phoenix Suns. How did he get to where he
got to? How did he? And this is coming off
of by his own accounts, a disappointing senior year. Here's
part two, the beginnings of the pro journey with Pepper. Pat,
you get done playing at Auburn. Okay, we'll take me
(00:50):
through the process of because back then there was right,
there was there was Phoenix, which was for and then
of course there was Chicago, but there was also what's
the one in Virginia. I can't remember what it's called,
smith Port, There's Portsmouth. What did you attend?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So I went to both Phoenix and Chicago?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Okay, so you go to Phoenix and, as we had
discussed in a previous pod, disappointing senior year, you're way
too bulky to start the year. You couldn't move okay,
but you know, and and you've been very honest about
your confidence going up and down and up and down.
Your conference was really high coming into the year. And
(01:36):
then what do you remember about going to Phoenix in
terms of your own personal expectations.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I remember, you know, when I got there, obviously you're
seeing some of the best athletes from that year. So
I just went and just thought to myself, I just
had to have a good showing. You know, there's a combine,
so you're doing all types of tests, you know, vertical
and sprint, defensive slides, all of these things. But then
(02:04):
again it's still played out as I recall that, you know,
coaches were also looking to make their mark, so a
lot of playing time. Even though it was spoken like,
hey guys, this is not about me, the coach would share,
this is not about me. This is about letting you
guys get your exposure. And that's that's not what happened.
(02:25):
It was, you know, the guys who were more of
a let's say, a star at the time. Those guys
would have played more minutes and I but I wasn't
complaining because I was again, it was very satisfied being there.
I had a lot of gratitude for even being there,
understanding that you know, a couple of years ago, I
never even thought this was possible.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, Draft night, this is this is nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, said,
who's your agent? Warren Gary? I actually, uh, Warren came out.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
As a front runner. I went through a couple of
different interviews, and his partner at the time, he kept
telling me, oh, I worked for this really great guy.
I worked for this really great guy. And I'm like, well,
then why can't I have him with my representation? So
he said, that's no problem. So then we went and
I started speaking to one and I met him after
the like the first game in Phoenix at the at
(03:27):
the Combine, and he he came to me, he was like, wow,
you know you're you're a really good athlete, and you know,
you started complimenting me and he said, you know, I'm
getting some good feedback. And so then like that one
of those evenings, I went to dinner with him, and
I was out with like all these NBA coaches and
gms and just you know, a fish out of water.
And so anyways, after the Combine, we went through Milwaukee, Houston,
(03:54):
I think Chicago, uh as some of the some of
the teams that you know, had some interest. So when
I'm done with going through and kind of doing a
one day workout, Milwaukee shares to Lauren that he's like, hey,
if Pats are there at forty six in the second round,
we're going to pick them up. So I get all excited.
(04:16):
I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. You know,
I never would have thought this was coming true. So
I called my mom and dad and I'm like, hey,
you're not going to believe this, you know, they said,
this is My Dad's like, well, you know, it would
be great if you came home and we could celebrate
this together. And I'm like, Dad, well, there's a chance
that this might not happen. This is just you know,
because again with sports and professional sports, as you know,
(04:39):
it's like, you know, things can happen behind the scenes.
So I said, don't make a big fuss, but that's
not what happened.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
When I got home, that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So I get home and there's a huge tent in
the backyard. True to any irishman, my dad throws a
maybe I don't know, a four kegger, and so all
my highs teammates are there, Marty Waters is there, neighbors
are there, all my dad's pals. And I get home
and I'm like, holy shit, and I'm like, this is
not happening. And you know, I'm the youngest of six,
(05:11):
so my siblings are going I don't worry. This is
gonna be great. It's be great. I'm like, no, you
don't understand, like this might not happen. And if it's,
if we're sitting there watching the television my name is,
my name's not called, it's gonna be pretty freaking embarrassing
to have all these people there. So everyone's coming up
to me and and you know, I'm hearing from their
version of what my dad said. They're like, oh, it's
(05:31):
so exciting, you know you Milwaukee, while it's gonna be
a great fit for you. And I'm like, no, no, no, no,
I'm going through one by one like this might not happen. Oh,
sure it's going to happen. So television goes on. They're
starting to go through the first round. You know that time,
Tim duncan you know? I think it's the first pick.
And they're going through all these guys and everyone's like,
(05:51):
this is so exciting gets to the second round forty
second pick. Gentleman comes up to the podium. For the
forty second pick of the nineteen ninety seven draft, the
Milwaukee Bucks select Gerald Honeycut from Tulane. And I'm telling you,
I'm sitting there and all my friends there was behind me,
(06:14):
and when I turn there's just styrofoam cups like floating
in the air, and there's just this vapor. Everyone's leaving
the room as fast as they can.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, that one had to hurt, right, Jerald Honeycut none
as meat to meet, ends up, ends up going, ends
up going thirty It was actually thirty eight. It's the
thirty eight. But let me ask you, there's a bunch
of traditional centers that went. Okay, I'm gonna ask you, honestly,
(06:47):
which one of these hurt the most? Okay, because I
got I got all a Donald Foyle who had that
great career at Colgate, right, he was ninth, Scott Pollard,
Kelvin Cato, Paul Grant, John Thomas from Minnesota, Surge Wicker
from North Carolina, Jason Lawson from Nova, Paul Rogers, Mark Blunt,
(07:15):
and then some foreign players went as well.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You know, I think when I was out in Phoenix
and the Chicago thing, I think I compared myself to
who do who do I look like? And Paul Grant
stood out to me and I was like, you know what,
I think I can compare myself with him. So when
Paul went, I was like, okay. There was kind of
no one in the room would have known, but I
(07:40):
was like, you know, I think this is probably the
most likely of people that's next to me that I
know this could probably happen. So when it didn't, man,
I kicked the door and I walked out my front
door started walking down the street kicking rocks, just like
this is bullshit. I just wasted all this time and
(08:02):
never had any clue about, you know, a couple of
specifics what was going on behind the scenes. And of
course I didn't realize that I had, you know, a
Bosman status and we'll get into that later, and having
born in Ireland, so I just thought it was over.
And so then my brother came out to the front
door looking for me, and he's like Pat, Pat, the
New York Knicks are on the phone, and so right
(08:25):
away I was like I lit up, and I'm like okay,
and I'm sorry, that's that was one of the other
teams I worked out for. So I I ran back
to the house and got on the phone, and I
was delighted to hear that they were like, look, we
you know, we were trying to figure out how to
work some deals behind the scenes in the second round.
Couldn't get anyone to bite, but we'd love to invite
(08:47):
you into our summer league roster.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
So what what Warren say about about what your expectations
to be about what to do next.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I think he kind of went over again, like, you know, hey,
it was a funny draft. There's a lot of early
bigs picked up. But this doesn't mean the end of it.
And you know, like any agent, anybody who's been in
the business for a while, he's trying to put a
positive side. He is like, this is great. Now nobody
owns your rights. So now you can go play for
anybody you want the summer. And I think that we
could we could still make a roster. So he said,
(09:22):
you know, the Knicks, We've been talking to them. They
really like the workout that you had and they'd love
to bring you to bring you on. And I think
that you go out and make a statement in the
summer league.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So when did you go to New York?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
So I go up to New York maybe I don't
even know how. Soon after that, I go up to
New York. Jeff Van Gundy is the coach at the time.
So I get up to their training space. I think
it's in Rochester and so I'm training with about twenty
guys and they're trying to get to the final cut.
John Thomas, who's one of their picks, he there and
(10:01):
so just working as hard as I can. I just
remember this gym that you were working out. It was
at a small college. It was it must have been
one hundred and fifteen degrees in this gym, and Jeff
Van Gundy just sharp, sharp tongue. Just if you were
not in line with what he wanted, he was going
to call you out. And he just he was just blunt.
(10:21):
I just remember guys like they would sit there and
go get drinks of water and he would just be,
you know, explicit, like f bomb, like what the eff
are you doing? You know we don't once said get water,
and he's like telling guys, you know, He's like, look,
if you're not if you are not putting your best
effort into this. He goes, good luck to you in
the future. He goes, if you if you think other
teams are going to come look at you now, he goes,
(10:43):
go get your high school gym, go in there, get
get a trainer, call NBA teams, and when you get
in the gym, just lock the f and door because
nobody's coming. And guys were just getting called out, Like
I remember there was one guy who had something on it.
He had a tattoo on his arm. He said like
pain or something like that, and Jeff was just like
going up to the coach just going to be like pain.
(11:05):
He goes, that's you say, dumbass. And I was just
sitting there like I had never seen anything like it,
you know, coming from Tommy, Joe Eagles and Cliff Fallace
and of course my high school coach. I've never seen
the business side being so real that, you know, if
you weren't, if you weren't what they were ordering, they're
just kicking you out.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Summer League was it Lombie State or was it?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Uh, yeah, it was on Beach State. So I get
out there and it was great, you know. I remember
John Thomas was getting into a lot of foul trouble.
So I was next up, and I just remember he
just I had something to prove, And so every time
I got the ball out of the basket, I was
just dunking on everybody that I could find, and just
everybody was like, holy shit, like you know, sir, dunk
(11:49):
a lot, you know, And I'm like, look, I'm just
I'm just keyed in on everything that I can do
to become one of the best players inside of this
this showcase. And at the end of it, Van Gunny
came up to me and he started sharing with me
two things that were very very interesting. One he said, hey, Pat,
I know your agent Warren and he goes, but I'll
(12:12):
tell you this. We really like you, and we're going
to do something the New York Knicks have never done
in the history. We're going to offer you a guaranteed
contract to an undrafted rookie. And I was like, holy shit,
this is it. I just made the NBA. And he goes,
but your agent's also telling me that you have some
pretty lucrative deals that are coming from Europe. And I
(12:35):
still didn't understand the whole Bosman thing. So when I
get home, I have a guy who's been out for
a while. Rob, we're Dan. He's my roommate, big seven footter,
and so I was sitting there and I said, Rob,
what would you do? And he goes, Man, I'm telling
you this. I've heard a lot of people go to Europe.
I said, but if I had that contract with the
next I would sign that right now. And I was
(12:57):
like okay. So then I talked to Warren and Warren
was like, look up, you can sign that contract and
I probably gonna be great. You're gonna be You're gonna
be on an NBA team, You'll you'll you'll have an
NBA lifestyle. He said, But I'm telling you, you know
the Patrick Ewing is not coming out of that game,
and everybody is convinced that you haven't reached your potential yet.
(13:17):
And what I mean by that is if you go there,
you're not getting in, You're not getting game experience. It
could be one and done. And what I have for
you is there's a span. There's an Italian coach coaching
a Spanish team in Spanish League, Sergio Scarloo, and he
says he likes you a lot, and I guarantee you
(13:37):
that you'll probably play anywhere from twenty five minutes and
up in every game, and I think that you're going
to get what you need is more development. So I
sat there and I'm looking at these two options, and
you know, then the of course, the money came into it,
and I was like, okay, here's the NBA minimum and
I'm looking at it, almost twice the amount to go
(13:59):
play in Spain. And I was like, okay, this is
really cool. And then I started thinking about what Warren
was sharing. So I said, Morren, I'm going to go
with the Spanish opportunity.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
All right, So you pack up your stuff and you
go to Spain. What do you remember about arriving in Spain?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So obviously having a European background, I get over there,
you know, I don't know any Spanish. I get there
during the middle of a festival. It's a small town
called Victoria. It's just outside of Bilbout, northern Spain. Very
good basketball club and there's a festival going on that
everything is shut down for like two days. So the
(14:43):
handler that picks me up, he's telling me I'm broken English, like, okay,
there's this festival going on. Here's your apartment. I get
into my apartment. I don't have any Now we're not
even on the euro currency yet, so it's pasades. So
I'm sitting there, I have no posades. The banks aren't open,
so for like a like almost two days, I'm sitting
there in my apartment like I'm like, okay, I haven't eaten.
(15:04):
I'm walking around. I can't exchange anything. Everybody's closed down.
Remember I get to the first practice and I got
to Sergio and he's like, hey, you know, how are
you doing checking in? I said, Sergio, you know, I'm starving.
I haven't eaten in like a day and a half.
And I just remember he was like, you know, apologetic
about it. But that was my first experience. And then
of course when the practices started, it was it was
(15:28):
not just a culture shock, but the basketball and of
course the way it was coached was totally different than
what I was used to.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
As well.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
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Speaker 1 (15:48):
You had what Elmer Bennett was kind of an old head,
and what Brent Scott as well. So for people who
don't know, and I think this is right when I
don't know Bozeman status started then. I thought it started
in two thousand, but you had a European passport, you
didn't count as an American.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, so it's actually started one year before I got there.
There was a was a gentleman with the last name,
surname Bozeman, and I think he was a German national
and he was playing in Spain or France or Italy.
And so for people that don't know, when you're playing overseas,
there is a there's an agreement in each league of
how many foreigners can actually penetrate a roster because they
(16:28):
don't want to have of course, what's happening in the NBA,
they're they're looking to protect the national side of things,
so they want to make sure that they're cultivating the
younger guys who were coming in, of course protecting the
contracts of the Spanish guys. And then they had like
two spots. So it's changed a lot since I played,
but at the time it was two Americans or two foreigners,
(16:50):
and everybody else could be just a European national, which
Bosman would go underneath that. So understanding the very easy
way to think about it, just they were getting an
American with me joined the roster, but I was only
counting as as one of the European guys.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Right, Okay, So what was your season like? And as
people have come to learn, the style of basketball is
very different, you point out the coaching is very different.
It's still kind of almost collegial in that it's coaching's
coaching centric more than player centric. Right, what was that?
What was that adjustment like coming from Auburn now playing
(17:27):
at taus Tramakan.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
So I'd say that, I'd say the build up is,
you know, when I was at Auburn, you know, you're
watching the NBA. You know, you're watching every game and
there's you know, there's that fast paced you know, all
you dunks, you know, four quarters, last second shots, all
of that, and so that's kind of something to kind
of get seeded into your mentality, like I can't wait
for this to happen. So when I get to Europe,
(17:48):
I'm sitting there and everything's slowed down and it's very
tactful in its uh, its focus. So everything becomes five
guys from working for one good shot. You know, it's
it's all about you know, like getting ready for every team,
like with just hours and hours of practice sessions, going
(18:09):
over picking rolls, how we're going to actually play, you know,
on the ball of defense. So it just becomes it
becomes very cumbersome. It becomes to the point where I
just feel like I'm taking shots in the beginning that
they're like, no, you're not going to do that. So
it was almost like I was this wild horse and
(18:29):
they were trying to put a saddle on my back,
and at first I was bucking it off. I was like, no,
I'm not going down with this bullshit. I'm going to
keep playing the way I want. And so Sergio and
I we got into a lot of arguments, but you
wise won the league, right well, we went to the
finals that year, so just making it to the finals,
(18:49):
So again, is it for any of the people listening.
The European has a kind of a relegation system where
you know, depending on how your team does in one
seat and that'll generate kind of where you're going. So
what happened was is we actually qualified for the highest
European tournament at that time, and it was something that
(19:10):
they hadn't done in the history or a long time
in the history of that team, so they were very excited.
There was a lot of momentum. We played very well.
We had a great unit as far as the collective
and all the guys, and so what I was starting
to realize is what I was trying to fight. I
really started to appreciate more and more as the season
was going on, I started to realize, you know, there
(19:33):
is a sense of family here. There is you know,
the collective of all of us. You know, when we
would go to meals, pregame meals, we were all, you know,
joining in with family stories and how we were doing.
And there was something that I didn't have in other teams.
So having gone that far, all the way to the finals,
it was something that looking back, I took with me
(19:55):
every year after that is we made it all the
way to the finals and we didn't win, and that hurt,
and I remember Sergio Scarleolo at the end of the
season was like, you know, you know, in in Europe
we have what's called Studio Pseudo Campions. It's like the
second place, and we didn't want to hear we were
second place, because you know, we had worked so hard
and we believe that we should have won that league,
(20:17):
but at that time TDK man race, so they had
our number, and uh so it just turned out that
from that point forward, I was like, I understand how
much you've got to put into this, and if I
ever get a chance to get all the way back here,
I'm never I'm not going to you know, take this
as a as something that you just you know, you
(20:38):
get there and you just kind of rest on what
you've been working for. I'm like, you know, I'm gonna
put as much as I can into winning every time
we get into this.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, so you get down with that year, what what
was the decision like as to what to do next?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So I actually had, you know, the shorter contracts in Europe,
so usually they'll have like there's a one plus one
and it'll be like, you know, you can agree on
it or the team will agree on it. And so
at the end of that I just I don't know,
I just didn't connect with the coaching and I knew
that a lot of the other guys, like Brent Scott,
(21:11):
who really became like a brother to me, they weren't
looking to bring him back and they were looking to
bring back Elmer Bennett and some other guys. And so
at that time, you know, I went home for the
off season and I told Warren, I said, I don't
think I want to go back there. And so then
this team, Pontiffanikos in Greece contacted him and they had
(21:33):
watched me play and they had scouted tapes and they
were like, look, you know, we'd like to sign pat
to a two year deal, and so I was like, okay.
Well at that time, so I'm back in the summer,
I start working out for Cleveland, the Calves, the Chicago Bulls.
And then when I when I finished working out with them,
(21:53):
both of those teams offered me a minimum deal. And
I'm back to that same situation like with the Knicks.
And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I
can take this now, or I can take even bigger
opportunities with bigger financial I guess contracts then what would
have been offered for these minimum deals. So then I
went and I signed a two year deal with Pontaikos.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Now, the only thing about signing Greece is people think
you're only going to get half your money, right. The
old story in Greece is guys are making half what
they tell you and they only get half of that
actually into their bank account. What's the reality now, you
played on the biggest club in Greece, what was that? Like?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I'm fortunate enough that my home, my contracts with Warren.
You know, I'd see the gentleman's side of Warren, I said,
but there was a bulldog behind the business side of him.
And I never lost one dollar with any of the
teams I played with, So you know, I get the
Pontonikos and two brothers own the team, and they also
(22:58):
own a very large pharmaceutical company. Me so the budget
for the whole team was so large that they would
delay monthly payments, you know, because there was so much
They were like, you know, trying to make as much
as they can on interest or wherever they had invested
their money. So there was times where I'd sit there
and I'd be like, look, you know this is very awkward,
(23:19):
but you know there's there's money that you know, we've
signed a contract for and uh So then I would
go like another two months and I remember I've gone
up to our coach, Coacho Bradovic, and I just started
creating a kind of disillusion that I had businesses and
people that were counting on me back home. I SA know,
I've got a business back home, and there are people
that I'm paying, and I got to make sure that
(23:39):
keeps going. So I might have to fly back during
the season to take care of us, to figure out
what assets we're going to like, you know, change over
so I can pay these people.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And remarkably got paid and remarkably.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, so that these two little guys come into the
to the locker room, and all the Greek nationals they're
all terrified of them. So these two little guys are
going around there just going you have a claim? Do
you have a claim? Do the And I was like,
I love to claim, you know, I just I just
know that I have an agreement. You know, we made
an agreement. And they're just looking at me like why
is this one guy not afraid of us? And I'm like,
(24:10):
you know, the reality is is you know, there's basketball everywhere,
so if you want to break the contract, we know
we can go somewhere else. So then after one game,
I'm we've we win a game, and I'm coming out
the tunnel and these two guys they're way up at
the top. They practically have two thrones sitting there watching
the games. And as I'm walking through the tunnel just
underneath them, they stop and they're like book, book, and
I look up at them and they're like, we sent
(24:32):
the money. And I was like, okay, thank you. You know,
I just walked into the locker room like, you know, awkward,
but I guess it's just the way it's done.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
How'd you play?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
So that first year I got in there, I was
I was the understudy to Dino Roger, and that first
coach that I had there, he was Dino's best friend,
and it was it was the most awkward situation because
you're coming from college. Now you have one experience in
(25:03):
Spain where everybody's treated the same. But Dino was the exception.
Dina would he says he was the best friend. He
didn't come to the training camp the same as us.
His girlfriend shows up at the training camp and stays
with him before games. The experience was extremely militant, so
they wanted us like all together at a hotel, taking
(25:25):
a nap, eating our meal before even home games. So
after the meal, when we'd all have to go to
sleep and go to our rooms, Dina would eat his
meal and he would just walk out into the parking
lant a lot and just start to walk away. And
so one day I was like, well, you know, my
wife is sitting at home. I think I'm just gonna
I can go take a rest at my house. So
I start walking out and the assistant coach comes out
(25:47):
to me and I'm just standing next to Dino and
we're both kind of walking to our cars, and he's like, Pat, pet,
where are you going? And they said, uh, I'm just
looking over at Dina. I said, I think I'm just
going to take a rest at home before the game.
And he's like, no, no, it's better that you you
come over here and stay in the hotel. And I
keep looking over at Dina, and Dino gives me this
as half smirk, like, hey, the rules don't apply to me,
(26:07):
they apply to you. And so I was like, you know,
in the best interest of not starting an argument, I
just walked back in and just followed suit. And again
it goes back into you know, like I think most
people who've played in Europe they realize like when you
get there, you're slowly being hypnotized into a culture. And
then before long, it's like you're just giving up your thoughts.
(26:29):
You're just like, Okay, this is what we do and
how we do it. And every year, Doug, every year
I had left in those nine years, as soon as
I got on the flight to leave, I would sit
there like shaking my head, like, oh my god. They
had a total hypnosis over me about what to think,
what to where, you know, what I was supposed to do.
(26:50):
And then you'd finally be freed of it because you
get you're allowed to think for yourself. And that's one
of the things that I recognized that, you know, European
mentality with the coaching and the whole idea of team
is extremely militant.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
It really, it really is the next year you got
to start, right, do you know what? Do you retire?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So yeah, no, So Dino then went over to our
rival team, to Olympiakos. He got another big, bigger contract,
so he ends up leaving big news inside the newspapers.
We signed a new coach. We didn't go as far
as we wanted in the European tournament, but we did
win the Greek League that year. So the next year
they bring in Zelko Abradovich and around that time if
(27:34):
you remember, you know, kind of in the world of basketball.
So it's around two thousand. Now, this is when Yugoslavian
coaches are really the pinnacle of thoughts of how to
produce the best basketball teams. So a lot of what
they were producing as far as like going on, like
we used to go to these training space in big guards.
(27:55):
They like big guards, good guard, Well, the point guard.
The point guard was broken down. It was like a science,
and I felt I almost felt bad for every point
guard we had because that's where our coach was. He
was he was he was a point guard in the past.
So everything they would do was just righteously told no,
you stop right here, and it's two dribbles, not four.
You know, you go over here and you make the
(28:17):
fake this way with your the bawl over your head
like this, and you do this and this is the
speed you do. So everything was broken down to this
exact ideal model. So when Obradovich came in, he changed
the whole system and he started challenging every every one
of our players. So then he also brought in at
the time Zelko Rebracha and so Zelko had just won
(28:38):
the Italian League and so when he came in, he
was the starting center, so he was you know, at
that time, we had Dan Bodi Roga and uh Zelko
uh Rebrecha came in and those guys were you know,
like at the time we were playing for the national team.
And this is what I was sharing about the USA team.
This is around the time that there was a huge
(28:59):
disruption in any type of international basketball, you know where
you know, from like two thousand and two thousand and one,
these guys were, you know, they were winning gold medals.
They were taking out our US station team. And that's
right around the time that they you know, they kind
of tapped USA tapped out and said, look, we got
to rethink this how we're building teams. And they got
(29:20):
Mike Krzewsky involved.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
So my.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
First pro experience I was with Inner Performances, right, So
they were the other big, big agency overseas, and in
two thousand we had a yugoslaviing coach and the plan
was because I could get Israeli citizenship, I'd be a
Bozeman B. Right, you were a Boseman as Bozman B.
(29:52):
But I remember what I remember is I go to
training camp and we have. The other point guard is
he mister Jennings who's like five eight, five nine but
unbelievable score, played in the NBA East Tennessee State, like
unbelievable score. And he's kind of an old head, right,
(30:13):
probably thirty at the time. And so I'm the backup
point guard. But and because I'm a I would have
been in Israeli Like, okay, if I it fits. But
the only like, the only thing you could do to
overcome because we had a yugoslavin coach, the only thing
you could do to overcome the fact that you're small
is you had to play the NBA and be able
(30:35):
to just go get buckets, right, Otherwise, if you weren't
six or five or above, you couldn't be a playmaker,
couldna be a point guard. Right. So this guy I'm
telling you, like in training camp, like he hated me.
And what's crazy is like I played mostly the way
that they'd want to play, but I was just small,
you know, just small, and but it was it was
amazing on how they truly believe like that there are
(30:58):
specific passes, a number of dribbles, a way to enter
the offense, a way to cut, like I mean as
you played out like specific, this is the only way
to do it. I'm like, okay, yeah it was. It
was very very confusing to me. But at that time, okay,
so now you've been in Greece for a couple of years,
(31:22):
right you started to I think was it when you
went back to Spain that you established yourself as probably
you know, the premiere or one of the two or
three premiere centers in Europe. What year do you think
that was the peak? Well?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I think so I finished Pontathonikos and I went to
a smaller team, Marousied and that's when I got my
opportunity to just to showcase what I could do. And
so I had a good year. And so coming out
of that, you know, a lot of people come up
to me. I remember we actually even played Pontathonikos in
our home gym and we beat them, and I hear
(31:58):
from one of my good friends, Johnny Rodd that the
two owners are yelling at the coaching staff like why
do we ever get rid of him? You know? And
so after that, I get a phone call from my
agent after that year that I played so well, and
he's like, hey, that first team wants to pick you up.
(32:18):
You know the team in Spain, Talos Saramico. So I'm
like really, He's like, yeah, they've been looking to get
you back for years, and I said okay. So then
they give me an offer. It's the largest offer that
I've ever ever had, and I'm like holy shit. So
I said, well, I've heard a little bit about this coach,
so let me do some research with Elan Bennett. So
I call Elmer and Elmer's like, Pat, you and this
(32:40):
guy will not mix. And I'm like, okay, all right.
So I called back my agent. I'm like, I don't
think it's going to work. He's like, okay, you sure,
and I'm like yeah, he's a lot of money. I said, no,
I understand. And now at that time, my wife and
I we just had newborn twins. They're premature, they had
heart monitors on them, and so now I'm not just
looking out for myself my wife. Now I'm looking out
(33:00):
for an environment that's gonna help me to be, you know,
a better father and not have a bunch of stuff
getting my get in my head. So anyways, he calls
me back like ten minutes later, he's at the upt
the offer. So now it's even more so. Now I'm thinking, Okay,
money's going to solve everything. So I go over sign
a deal, go in. I said, one thing I got
(33:21):
to get Now, this is at the point where I
played five years and money is really you know, even
though this is a great deal, money is not the ultimate.
Because I realized I've just missed my brothers and sisters
have missed weddings. I missed you know, I missed funerals.
And I was like, you know what, my family time
is going at the wayside here for all of this
(33:43):
stuff because you know, when I get over there, it's
so militant you're not allowed to leave anywhere you're.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It that it's like for people who don't understand, like
you end up missing it's a family like sports on
TV regular You know, on one hand, right, very profitable
life and in terms of basketball, and I'm guessing what
two practices a day everywhere you went correct, yep to
(34:08):
two practice to day. So it is a job. It
is a lot of work, but oftentimes like it's basketball,
it's not. But the all the things you're missing, like
there's a value, there's a tangible value to that, and
you can't something goes wrong or somebody needs help. You
can't hop on a flight and fly from Spain, or
agrees to just be home for a couple of days.
(34:29):
Like what you're in, you're in, you're out, you're at.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
That's exactly it. And so I asked to go to
my brother's wedding. So my brother was getting married in
Ireland during the preseason, and I said, you know, I'd
like to get you know, five days off to get
up there, go go be around my family. So the
owner of the the president of the team, Kerrie Hite,
he says, okay, So we signed a deal. Long story short,
(34:53):
didn't work out with the coach. She was like, no,
you got you got an option. You can either go
to your brother's wedding and be off this team, or
or you can stay with us. So I shook his hand,
I said, well, good luck to you this year. And
everybody in the town hated. They were like, oh, we
don't have a center now, like this is unbelievable. So
then you went to Reale right, No, So that I
(35:14):
get a call from my brother's wedding. I'm sitting there
and I'm leaving at one am. This is the coach.
He took my five days, and they agree. They said, okay,
you know, we'll let you go for two days. So
I go to my brother's wedding and I'm flying back
to Spain and someone in the lobby comes out and says, hey,
there's somebody from the Orlando Magic on the phone, and
so I get on the phone and this gentleman tells
(35:36):
me one of their scouts. He's like, look, Stephen Hunter
just tore his acl I think that you could make
the team. And he's like, how's Spain going? And I'm
like it's not going well. You know, I'm ready to
give everything back. So anyways, I go and I come back.
I leave taus Aamica and I make the Orlando Magic.
And I remember it was like everyone's like, you know,
(35:57):
where'd this guy come from. I'm like, hey, you know,
I've been in America up for a long time, you know.
And they're like, you know, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, like,
where where did this dude come from? And I'm like,
I've just been playing over seas for five years. So
then just getting my name back into the mix, you know.
I go in and I'm the starting center for like
the first nine or ten games. And you know, I
(36:17):
think that that kind of charged that. Okay, you know
this guy, he is an NBA caliber player. And then
all of a sudden it became to the point where
when I went back after that year, another just a
little tangent is you know. Doc asked me at the
end of the year, you know, would you like to
come back? And I said, Doc, I'm taking a huge
pay cut coming back here. This season didn't go the
(36:38):
way I would have liked. I think that my best
playing style is to play with European teams. And he understood,
so he said thank you for the opportunity. And that's
when I went back, and of course, like a year later,
I'm playing for Real Madrid and that's I think that's
where the Phoenix Suns then started to realize, like, look
that this guy can play.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Okay, So for people who don't know, we mentioned the
two practices a day, Okay, paint the picture of the differences.
Let's start with Morus, where you had that great year.
What was their facilities like, they have a practice gym,
they have a regular renaw what was it all like?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Very small, It's probably could fit a thousand people, smaller
than a high school. Gym. The there's two staircases going
one would go into the locker room, an unfinished locker room.
It was just a big concrete slab cell with like
a picket hose and everyone's sharing a shower. And then
(37:37):
on the other side of the basement there was a
weight room that would you know, had like two dumbbells
and you know, just a couple of kettle bells. So
that was that was that year. But it was a
great family experience, even though you knew that it didn't
have you know, the most high tech and best equipment.
You know, there was a lot of people around it.
There was a very good owner who cared a lot
(37:58):
about you know, the team and the guy and putting
together the best team that he could environment. So coming
from there and then and then coming over and then
you're walking into you know, the Orlando Magic practice facility
where I'm getting a retina scan to get in the
door to doing something like sci fi thing with my hand.
They can fingerprint it like two or three times. So
(38:20):
then there's like a laser beam that goes by my
hand to let me into the practice facility, you know,
with the gate. And then you get in there and
there's a bunch of range Rovers in Lamborghinis sitting in
the parking lot. It's a totally different experience.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And by the way, I'm looking at Mercy's jim pretty well.
It says it's seats seventeen hundred people. It does have
stands on the side there and I and this is
interesting because you played later in Russian Hinky Himty when
I played Tiny Gym and then we played I don't
know if mineral Water Mineral Buddha was in the league
(38:55):
when you played, but they literally had stands behind the basket,
a little bit behind the benches, and then they had
like a track that people were like four or five
deepont and then a wall on the other side. I
was like, how do they make any money on this deal?
Like how does this even work? Like such bullshit? It
was amazing.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, I don't think it's the same business model as
far as the owner's investment.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
It's all a mafia thing where they do.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Something, but it's no way. I mean, they're not even
making that much money. Like can you think about the
NBA with just the merchandise, you know, the ecosystem that
they have with merchandise, tickets, fan experience everything. I think
that most of Europe is just on the television rights alone,
you know, and I think that that's what they have.
And it's funny because you see such a difference in
(39:45):
the fans and of course the business owners that you know,
when you're in the when you're in the NBA, you
see all this sensationalism. Everything is just so heightened about
the experience and everything that's going on. When you get
to Europe, it's just very cut and dry. This is
what here for. You know, we're not here for all
these little frills and this and that. You're not here
to like sign jerseys and sign or sell any jerseys
(40:07):
or hats or anything like that. So it's it's it's
a very different world.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Okay, so you're you're with the Orlando Magic. You played
my guy Pat Garrity, right, ironic, ironical, you're the Irish one.
He's Irish but from Colorado. But if somebody would have said, hey,
who's the Irish national player for the Magic, they would put.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
And since then they still do it like someone will
see me and they don't recognize me, and I'll tell me,
you know, my name is Patt had played for the
Magic like, oh, you're the Irish guy. I'm like, yeah, Like, man,
you used to knock down those threes with that hitch
with your foot. I'm like, that's Pat Garrity. And I
don't even know if you know a lot of that.
It's like and you know, I don't. I don't look
(40:49):
to fight it. It's just like, you know, if they
if they even realize that, you know, there's another guy
named Pat on the magic, I'm like, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
What what was Grant Hill?
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Like?
Speaker 2 (40:59):
He was amazing. I remember when when I got there,
he was probably the first person just in the in
the preseason, just playing five on five pickup. He was
the first person that was like, man, you know, like
you can really play. And when someone at that caliber
tells you something, you know, you go home and you
tell your parents, you tell your wife.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I'm sitting there like it's boosting my confidence. And so
that was that was a really cool thing. And then
as the just before he got hurt, just playing with them,
you know, his court vision and his ability, like I
don't think he was attempting to get everyone the ball,
but him being on the court like I was, I
was getting a lot of points just for him seeing
me cut and drive and running, you know, running the floor.
(41:42):
So when he got hurt, it was like everything just
completely changed like this, the whole system of the way
the ball moved started to change. And then you know,
of course, then it was it became really more on
Mike Miller and Tracy McGrady that would get the ball
all the time. But when Grant was there, I remember
I was reading. I was reading a book, like I
(42:03):
think it was like a Motley Crue book or something,
and it was one of these documentaries had a lot
of just incredible stories, and I remember it just on
the bus. I just finished it and he was like, hey,
you know, can I read that? I'll make sure. And
I'm thinking, what would Grant Hill want to be reading
something about like a heavy metal band? But you know,
he just opened to you know, a lot of conversation.
And I've seen him since he's he's still the same
(42:25):
person's like you can sit there and you can have
a chat about anything and everything, and you know, there's
no ego inside of him. He's just you know, he's
sitting there and he's a very caring individual.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
That was the last year Sean Kemp was in the league. Yeah,
give me your best Sean Kemp story.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
If I do this, this, this podcast might go I
don't know, might go over to someplace you don't want
it to hear. That was my road guy, So Sean
right away, Sean and Darryl Armstrong of myself, we we
got along great, and so like whenever we weren't playing
or we were on the road, you know, we were
(43:03):
the three guys that would go out and get a beer.
And I just remember there was a there was a
road trip where let's just say it was a five
game stretch, and so the first time we get we
pull into whoever it was, let's just say it's Denver,
we go out, we have a few too many. We're
sitting there the next day after the game, we're showering up.
Sean's probably had twelve points, He's got like nine rebounds,
(43:26):
Darryl's got like eighteen points, like twelve assists, and I'm
sitting there with one point and you know, probably I
fouled out. And then the next game, same thing happens again.
Then by the third game and we're going out, you know,
all the time, they're sitting there like, let's go road dogs.
This is working When I was like, guys, We're sitting
in the shower and I'm like, guys, I don't know
if this is working out for me, you know, I like,
(43:49):
I know we're going out and having fun, but I'm
just not playing the well. And they're like, don't rule this, perk,
don't rule this. This is good, and I'm like, I
don't think this is good.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
We're going out tonight, and I'm like, okay, whatever, And
I just remember like Doc Rivers coming up to me
later and he's like pack Sean and Darryl. You know,
they get after it pretty hard. I know you've got
a good head on your shoulders, like you need to
look out for them. We're gonna need them. And I'm
like okay, and I'm like, who's looking out for me?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
You know?
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah? Just great, great guys, great memories. You know. Just
it's just funny at that point, because you know, like
with any athlete, you're looking for some sort of consistency
to say, how are we live in our lives that
were able to go out here and still perform, and
their variables were going out with me having a few
beers and then at the end they were sitting there
comparing stats. But as long as theirs were good and
(44:41):
mine were shit, everything was fine.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Why Tracey McGrady at that time should have been like
at his peak right the next year he actually next
two years he led the league in scoring. Yeah, but
he didn't win. Okay, didn't win.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Why I'd say, just experience you know again, is you know,
coming from Toronto. Uh, you know, I don't think. I
don't think you can. Ever, how would I say this
in an approach? It's like saying to somebody, I want
you to think of a color you've never thought of before.
You know, it's impossible. So how could he think differently
(45:20):
if he's never been all the way to the top
to realize it, Like, you know, in a comparison like
when I went when I was playing with Spain and
we went all the way to the finals. That was
the that was the most success that I've ever experienced.
So everything that was coming in was a new minute,
it was a new ten minutes, it was a new hour.
So I was like, wow, I've never been in this situation.
When I look back at Tracy, you know, here here's
(45:40):
all this talent. You know, great guy, but you know, leadership,
they say, is lonely. So I think that a lot
of times he was leading just by his physical example,
But was it doing enough, you know outside the court,
you know, was he putting enough demand on us and
what we were doing, because I remember I went through
a whole come of finest thing again where I just sank,
(46:02):
and I remember he just kept coming up to me
like as if it was you know, some sort of
valuable counseling. He's like, Pat, you're fucking good enough, Let's go,
and I'll just be like okay, you know, and that
would be it. So I think going into that year,
you know, we're in the playoffs, you know, we're up
against Detroit, and then you know, he communicates something into
(46:25):
the newspaper about how easily we're rolling through Detroit. Woke
them up. So again as there's there's another moment where
I'm sure he said, I'll never do that again, you know.
And I think that a lot of a lot of
what the magic organization and I'm not trying to bash them,
but a lot of what the magic organization is it
looks like guesswork at times. How do we come back
(46:46):
and start winning? How do we get to that caliber,
and they're building it around Tracy and they've got the
the injury with Grant. So I think, you know, a
guy like me at the starting center, it's like everyone's like,
who the hell is that guy? So I think that
even the roster at the time was not going to
be one that was going to support him to go far,
you know, in that year?
Speaker 1 (47:06):
What was Ben Wallace like to guard?
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Uh? He's a beast, you know. I think there's a
lot of I think there's a lot of guys that
fit the bill as far as you know the size. Uh,
there's there's stats all that, but here's this unorthodox six
's eight guy playing center, which is hulk strength and
just his hard hat, you know, going out.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
And so.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I just remember that, you know, he was good friends
with Darryl Armstrong, so I would get a lot of
communication of like what he was thinking during the playoffs
and what he was saying. And I just remember thinking that,
you know, this guy is you know, somebody that I
would love to find out what he's doing and how
he's you know, how he's you know, figuring out how
I get these extra rebounds. You know, what are what
(47:53):
are the techniques that he's using but uh, just just
a beast at that time.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Doc obously he catches a lot of shit because how
many of his teams have been up three games to one?
This was like the first This was the first one. Right,
you have three games one? You meant to it? What
Tracy like? You lived it? How much how much of
the fault of blame does Doc deserve?
Speaker 2 (48:17):
I could say that I don't know every conversation he
was having behind the scenes with players. I think that,
of course, you know, you're you're managing ego when you're
an NBA coach, you're also putting together you know, the
best rotations that you can. You're looking at, of course,
everything that you're doing and is it working. So at
that time it was working. But I do know this
(48:38):
when we went into that that last game. Doc's a
great motivator. But I don't know where the hell he
got his last motivational speech from, because it was something
about how Coca Cola is the number one selling soda
and it's it puts millions of dollars into its marketing.
(48:59):
And then he's comparing Pepsi and Pepsi does this and
Coke does this, and I'll tell you what by the
end of the damn motivational speech, I think we're all
thirsty for a soda.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
It was like I woked over at Darrel Armstrong and
I was like, what the hell did that all mean?
And Darrel's just just be ready tonight, and I was like, okay,
you know, we go off and we lose the game.
But for that to be his first one, I did
hear that and rightfully so I'll own this. You know
again is he said, if you look back on those rosters,
(49:30):
especially the first one, you know, I don't even know
if we should have been in the playoffs. So he
put a lot of work into the regular season, and
I remember his door was always open, you know. He
communicated to me all the time. You know, we had
just lost Horace Grant in the beginning the beginning of
the season with you know, a confrontation that happened on
one of our plane rides. And when Horace was left
(49:53):
from the team. The next day, Doc was talking to
me about I'm going to start you. I believe in you.
I think he can do this, and again is it
was like, Okay, I've never had a coach like this
at this level. That's talking to me about belief and
allowing me to do, you know, whatever I could do
on the floor. But again as I think that he's
learned a lot from it.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
No, it's interesting you point out right, uh, that that
roster if you had a Horace Grant and you have
Grant Hill, well, now that's much different roster than the
one that ended up the season where you have you know,
Gordon Geirchik, Drew Drew Gooden who's super young at the time,
Pat Garrity, Darrel Armstrong and Tracy Gray. That's that's the
starting lineup, you know, it's the starting lamp in that
(50:35):
in that last game. What happened? What gimme what happened?
What happened with with Horace and what was the confrontation? Oh?
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Man, so we're coming in from I think we're out
west and we're getting on the plane and uh, Horace
is one of the last to get on. So so
i'm I would sit to the right side of the
plane and Sean Kemp was in front of me. I
can't remember, Oh, Horace would have been behind me, and
then just to my left there's a long couch and
(51:05):
of course we all know that's Tracy's couch like he's
gonna sleep, he's gonna get rest. And so just in
front of him there's the other rookie, Ryan from Notre Dame.
So so we're sitting there and Horace, yeah, Ryan Humphreys.
They had a loss there for his name, so Ryan said.
So then Horace gets on and he's talking to shelling
(51:28):
a little bit and this and the other, and next
thing you know, Tracy says something to him to Horace
about something he's been saying, and he's like, you know,
I heard you. You know you've been sharing something about
you know, leadership of the team and this and the other.
And Horace looks over at Tracy and he gets so
emotional he starts stuttering, and next thing you know, he's
(51:53):
just like no, no, no, no, that's not me. And again,
I won't get into all the day cussing he did,
but he was saying, you know, Doc was behind some
of this. So then he turns his back towards the
back of the planes and to the front and he's
talking to Tracy and Darrel Armstrong gets up and Seawan's
talking about They're like cool it, calm down, this and
the other. The next thing, you know, Doc Rivers is
(52:13):
right behind Horace As. He's on this just rant about,
you know, coasing out Doc, and I'm sitting there, I
got I got front row seats. Man, I'm sitting there.
Connor McGregor like, I'm just like, holy shit. And I
look over and Ryan Humphrey's got his head buried in
a magazine. I'm like, now, dude, you want to watch
all of this, you know, So I'm watching this, and uh,
(52:34):
I mean, Doc is a big man, so he's like, hey,
h He says, a horse, you got something to say
to me? And horse turns around and he's looking right
down in his face and he's like yeah. And they
start going at it right and then Sean and myself
and Tracy we're all gettingup. We're splitting them apart. Nothing
but no swings were thrown split them up. And then
(52:58):
we're all like, holy shit, to that just happened. You know,
that just happened. And then we get off the plane,
you know, and everyone's just getting out. And then the
next day, you know, they teld me that Horas has
been released from the team, and that's this.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
And this this is you coming back from Europe where
it's a dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Right, yeah, so I'm like, this is insane. Yes, yeah,
it was. It was a totally new experience because you
realize that, you know, we're all grown ass men and
uh you know when I mean again, just like in
any family, I still believe like with any culture, any community,
any group, any tribe, you have to go through adversity,
(53:35):
and adversity on the other side of it will start
to build or forge something else. And so that's where
the adversity was starting in the very beginning of that season.
And there was some communication patterns that I was noticing
as a trend, like going, Okay, something is happening here
because someone's not taking the reins, or someone's complaining about
their position and they're they're starting to point fingers.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
All right, that's it for part two of my talk
with pepperg. Part three, we'll get you to the Phoenix
Suns experience and what life is like for him after basketball.
What's it like to shut it down, to know that
you're done and then to kind of put your American
life sort of back together and figure out what you
want to do next. A collection of the thoughts and stories,
(54:23):
and I think you'll be interested to hear what it
was like to play in Phoenix when he had to
play in the playoffs after a gigantic suspension of Boris
Dial and Amari Stottam I remember that when they're playing
the San Antonio Spurs in the NBA playoffs. Yeah, it
was Pepper. What went so wrong for him in that game?
(54:44):
You'll find out on Part three. In the meantime, Reminded
of Doug Otleib Show is daily three to five Eastern time,
noon to too Pacific. We also have the daily podcast
which is Uncensored, Unfiltered you Love. It's called in the Bonus.
That's on the iHeartRadio app. Just download wherever you download.
Pod guests in the Bonus or the Doug Gottlieb Show.
Thank you so much for listening on Doug Gottlieb. This
(55:05):
is all ball
Speaker 3 (55:24):
H
Hey, want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is
all ball. Uh, we continue my conversation with Pat Burke.
Of course, Pat was a star in Foeba basketball, most notably,
I would say, in Spain is where he's most known
for playing and being a being a menace. Of course
played in the NBA with your Orlando Magic and with
(00:27):
the Phoenix Suns. How did he get to where he
got to? How did he? And this is coming off
of by his own accounts, a disappointing senior year. Here's
part two, the beginnings of the pro journey with Pepper. Pat,
you get done playing at Auburn. Okay, we'll take me
(00:50):
through the process of because back then there was right,
there was there was Phoenix, which was for and then
of course there was Chicago, but there was also what's
the one in Virginia. I can't remember what it's called,
smith Port, There's Portsmouth. What did you attend?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So I went to both Phoenix and Chicago?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Okay, so you go to Phoenix and, as we had
discussed in a previous pod, disappointing senior year, you're way
too bulky to start the year. You couldn't move okay,
but you know, and and you've been very honest about
your confidence going up and down and up and down.
Your conference was really high coming into the year. And
(01:36):
then what do you remember about going to Phoenix in
terms of your own personal expectations.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I remember, you know, when I got there, obviously you're
seeing some of the best athletes from that year. So
I just went and just thought to myself, I just
had to have a good showing. You know, there's a combine,
so you're doing all types of tests, you know, vertical
and sprint, defensive slides, all of these things. But then
(02:04):
again it's still played out as I recall that, you know,
coaches were also looking to make their mark, so a
lot of playing time. Even though it was spoken like,
hey guys, this is not about me, the coach would share,
this is not about me. This is about letting you
guys get your exposure. And that's that's not what happened.
(02:25):
It was, you know, the guys who were more of
a let's say, a star at the time. Those guys
would have played more minutes and I but I wasn't
complaining because I was again, it was very satisfied being there.
I had a lot of gratitude for even being there,
understanding that you know, a couple of years ago, I
never even thought this was possible.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, Draft night, this is this is nineteen ninety seven. Yeah, said,
who's your agent? Warren Gary? I actually, uh, Warren came out.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
As a front runner. I went through a couple of
different interviews, and his partner at the time, he kept
telling me, oh, I worked for this really great guy.
I worked for this really great guy. And I'm like, well,
then why can't I have him with my representation? So
he said, that's no problem. So then we went and
I started speaking to one and I met him after
the like the first game in Phoenix at the at
(03:27):
the Combine, and he he came to me, he was like, wow,
you know you're you're a really good athlete, and you know,
you started complimenting me and he said, you know, I'm
getting some good feedback. And so then like that one
of those evenings, I went to dinner with him, and
I was out with like all these NBA coaches and
gms and just you know, a fish out of water.
And so anyways, after the Combine, we went through Milwaukee, Houston,
(03:54):
I think Chicago, uh as some of the some of
the teams that you know, had some interest. So when
I'm done with going through and kind of doing a
one day workout, Milwaukee shares to Lauren that he's like, hey,
if Pats are there at forty six in the second round,
we're going to pick them up. So I get all excited.
(04:16):
I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. You know,
I never would have thought this was coming true. So
I called my mom and dad and I'm like, hey,
you're not going to believe this, you know, they said,
this is My Dad's like, well, you know, it would
be great if you came home and we could celebrate
this together. And I'm like, Dad, well, there's a chance
that this might not happen. This is just you know,
because again with sports and professional sports, as you know,
(04:39):
it's like, you know, things can happen behind the scenes.
So I said, don't make a big fuss, but that's
not what happened.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
When I got home, that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So I get home and there's a huge tent in
the backyard. True to any irishman, my dad throws a
maybe I don't know, a four kegger, and so all
my highs teammates are there, Marty Waters is there, neighbors
are there, all my dad's pals. And I get home
and I'm like, holy shit, and I'm like, this is
not happening. And you know, I'm the youngest of six,
(05:11):
so my siblings are going I don't worry. This is
gonna be great. It's be great. I'm like, no, you
don't understand, like this might not happen. And if it's,
if we're sitting there watching the television my name is,
my name's not called, it's gonna be pretty freaking embarrassing
to have all these people there. So everyone's coming up
to me and and you know, I'm hearing from their
version of what my dad said. They're like, oh, it's
(05:31):
so exciting, you know you Milwaukee, while it's gonna be
a great fit for you. And I'm like, no, no, no, no,
I'm going through one by one like this might not happen. Oh,
sure it's going to happen. So television goes on. They're
starting to go through the first round. You know that time,
Tim duncan you know? I think it's the first pick.
And they're going through all these guys and everyone's like,
(05:51):
this is so exciting gets to the second round forty
second pick. Gentleman comes up to the podium. For the
forty second pick of the nineteen ninety seven draft, the
Milwaukee Bucks select Gerald Honeycut from Tulane. And I'm telling you,
I'm sitting there and all my friends there was behind me,
(06:14):
and when I turn there's just styrofoam cups like floating
in the air, and there's just this vapor. Everyone's leaving
the room as fast as they can.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, that one had to hurt, right, Jerald Honeycut none
as meat to meet, ends up, ends up going, ends
up going thirty It was actually thirty eight. It's the
thirty eight. But let me ask you, there's a bunch
of traditional centers that went. Okay, I'm gonna ask you, honestly,
(06:47):
which one of these hurt the most? Okay, because I
got I got all a Donald Foyle who had that
great career at Colgate, right, he was ninth, Scott Pollard,
Kelvin Cato, Paul Grant, John Thomas from Minnesota, Surge Wicker
from North Carolina, Jason Lawson from Nova, Paul Rogers, Mark Blunt,
(07:15):
and then some foreign players went as well.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You know, I think when I was out in Phoenix
and the Chicago thing, I think I compared myself to
who do who do I look like? And Paul Grant
stood out to me and I was like, you know what,
I think I can compare myself with him. So when
Paul went, I was like, okay. There was kind of
no one in the room would have known, but I
(07:40):
was like, you know, I think this is probably the
most likely of people that's next to me that I
know this could probably happen. So when it didn't, man,
I kicked the door and I walked out my front
door started walking down the street kicking rocks, just like
this is bullshit. I just wasted all this time and
(08:02):
never had any clue about, you know, a couple of
specifics what was going on behind the scenes. And of
course I didn't realize that I had, you know, a
Bosman status and we'll get into that later, and having
born in Ireland, so I just thought it was over.
And so then my brother came out to the front
door looking for me, and he's like Pat, Pat, the
New York Knicks are on the phone, and so right
(08:25):
away I was like I lit up, and I'm like okay,
and I'm sorry, that's that was one of the other
teams I worked out for. So I I ran back
to the house and got on the phone, and I
was delighted to hear that they were like, look, we
you know, we were trying to figure out how to
work some deals behind the scenes in the second round.
Couldn't get anyone to bite, but we'd love to invite
(08:47):
you into our summer league roster.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
So what what Warren say about about what your expectations
to be about what to do next.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I think he kind of went over again, like, you know, hey,
it was a funny draft. There's a lot of early
bigs picked up. But this doesn't mean the end of it.
And you know, like any agent, anybody who's been in
the business for a while, he's trying to put a
positive side. He is like, this is great. Now nobody
owns your rights. So now you can go play for
anybody you want the summer. And I think that we
could we could still make a roster. So he said,
(09:22):
you know, the Knicks, We've been talking to them. They
really like the workout that you had and they'd love
to bring you to bring you on. And I think
that you go out and make a statement in the
summer league.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So when did you go to New York?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
So I go up to New York maybe I don't
even know how. Soon after that, I go up to
New York. Jeff Van Gundy is the coach at the time.
So I get up to their training space. I think
it's in Rochester and so I'm training with about twenty
guys and they're trying to get to the final cut.
John Thomas, who's one of their picks, he there and
(10:01):
so just working as hard as I can. I just
remember this gym that you were working out. It was
at a small college. It was it must have been
one hundred and fifteen degrees in this gym, and Jeff
Van Gundy just sharp, sharp tongue. Just if you were
not in line with what he wanted, he was going
to call you out. And he just he was just blunt.
(10:21):
I just remember guys like they would sit there and
go get drinks of water and he would just be,
you know, explicit, like f bomb, like what the eff
are you doing? You know we don't once said get water,
and he's like telling guys, you know, He's like, look,
if you're not if you are not putting your best
effort into this. He goes, good luck to you in
the future. He goes, if you if you think other
teams are going to come look at you now, he goes,
(10:43):
go get your high school gym, go in there, get
get a trainer, call NBA teams, and when you get
in the gym, just lock the f and door because
nobody's coming. And guys were just getting called out, Like
I remember there was one guy who had something on it.
He had a tattoo on his arm. He said like
pain or something like that, and Jeff was just like
going up to the coach just going to be like pain.
(11:05):
He goes, that's you say, dumbass. And I was just
sitting there like I had never seen anything like it,
you know, coming from Tommy, Joe Eagles and Cliff Fallace
and of course my high school coach. I've never seen
the business side being so real that, you know, if
you weren't, if you weren't what they were ordering, they're
just kicking you out.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Summer League was it Lombie State or was it?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Uh, yeah, it was on Beach State. So I get
out there and it was great, you know. I remember
John Thomas was getting into a lot of foul trouble.
So I was next up, and I just remember he
just I had something to prove, And so every time
I got the ball out of the basket, I was
just dunking on everybody that I could find, and just
everybody was like, holy shit, like you know, sir, dunk
(11:49):
a lot, you know, And I'm like, look, I'm just
I'm just keyed in on everything that I can do
to become one of the best players inside of this
this showcase. And at the end of it, Van Gunny
came up to me and he started sharing with me
two things that were very very interesting. One he said, hey, Pat,
I know your agent Warren and he goes, but I'll
(12:12):
tell you this. We really like you, and we're going
to do something the New York Knicks have never done
in the history. We're going to offer you a guaranteed
contract to an undrafted rookie. And I was like, holy shit,
this is it. I just made the NBA. And he goes,
but your agent's also telling me that you have some
pretty lucrative deals that are coming from Europe. And I
(12:35):
still didn't understand the whole Bosman thing. So when I
get home, I have a guy who's been out for
a while. Rob, we're Dan. He's my roommate, big seven footter,
and so I was sitting there and I said, Rob,
what would you do? And he goes, Man, I'm telling
you this. I've heard a lot of people go to Europe.
I said, but if I had that contract with the
next I would sign that right now. And I was
(12:57):
like okay. So then I talked to Warren and Warren
was like, look up, you can sign that contract and
I probably gonna be great. You're gonna be You're gonna
be on an NBA team, You'll you'll you'll have an
NBA lifestyle. He said, But I'm telling you, you know
the Patrick Ewing is not coming out of that game,
and everybody is convinced that you haven't reached your potential yet.
(13:17):
And what I mean by that is if you go there,
you're not getting in, You're not getting game experience. It
could be one and done. And what I have for
you is there's a span. There's an Italian coach coaching
a Spanish team in Spanish League, Sergio Scarloo, and he
says he likes you a lot, and I guarantee you
(13:37):
that you'll probably play anywhere from twenty five minutes and
up in every game, and I think that you're going
to get what you need is more development. So I
sat there and I'm looking at these two options, and
you know, then the of course, the money came into it,
and I was like, okay, here's the NBA minimum and
I'm looking at it, almost twice the amount to go
(13:59):
play in Spain. And I was like, okay, this is
really cool. And then I started thinking about what Warren
was sharing. So I said, Morren, I'm going to go
with the Spanish opportunity.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
All right, So you pack up your stuff and you
go to Spain. What do you remember about arriving in Spain?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So obviously having a European background, I get over there,
you know, I don't know any Spanish. I get there
during the middle of a festival. It's a small town
called Victoria. It's just outside of Bilbout, northern Spain. Very
good basketball club and there's a festival going on that
everything is shut down for like two days. So the
(14:43):
handler that picks me up, he's telling me I'm broken English, like, okay,
there's this festival going on. Here's your apartment. I get
into my apartment. I don't have any Now we're not
even on the euro currency yet, so it's pasades. So
I'm sitting there, I have no posades. The banks aren't open,
so for like a like almost two days, I'm sitting
there in my apartment like I'm like, okay, I haven't eaten.
(15:04):
I'm walking around. I can't exchange anything. Everybody's closed down.
Remember I get to the first practice and I got
to Sergio and he's like, hey, you know, how are
you doing checking in? I said, Sergio, you know, I'm starving.
I haven't eaten in like a day and a half.
And I just remember he was like, you know, apologetic
about it. But that was my first experience. And then
of course when the practices started, it was it was
(15:28):
not just a culture shock, but the basketball and of
course the way it was coached was totally different than
what I was used to.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
As well.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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Speaker 1 (15:48):
You had what Elmer Bennett was kind of an old head,
and what Brent Scott as well. So for people who
don't know, and I think this is right when I
don't know Bozeman status started then. I thought it started
in two thousand, but you had a European passport, you
didn't count as an American.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, so it's actually started one year before I got there.
There was a was a gentleman with the last name,
surname Bozeman, and I think he was a German national
and he was playing in Spain or France or Italy.
And so for people that don't know, when you're playing overseas,
there is a there's an agreement in each league of
how many foreigners can actually penetrate a roster because they
(16:28):
don't want to have of course, what's happening in the NBA,
they're they're looking to protect the national side of things,
so they want to make sure that they're cultivating the
younger guys who were coming in, of course protecting the
contracts of the Spanish guys. And then they had like
two spots. So it's changed a lot since I played,
but at the time it was two Americans or two foreigners,
(16:50):
and everybody else could be just a European national, which
Bosman would go underneath that. So understanding the very easy
way to think about it, just they were getting an
American with me joined the roster, but I was only
counting as as one of the European guys.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Right, Okay, So what was your season like? And as
people have come to learn, the style of basketball is
very different, you point out the coaching is very different.
It's still kind of almost collegial in that it's coaching's
coaching centric more than player centric. Right, what was that?
What was that adjustment like coming from Auburn now playing
(17:27):
at taus Tramakan.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
So I'd say that, I'd say the build up is,
you know, when I was at Auburn, you know, you're
watching the NBA. You know, you're watching every game and
there's you know, there's that fast paced you know, all
you dunks, you know, four quarters, last second shots, all
of that, and so that's kind of something to kind
of get seeded into your mentality, like I can't wait
for this to happen. So when I get to Europe,
(17:48):
I'm sitting there and everything's slowed down and it's very
tactful in its uh, its focus. So everything becomes five
guys from working for one good shot. You know, it's
it's all about you know, like getting ready for every team,
like with just hours and hours of practice sessions, going
(18:09):
over picking rolls, how we're going to actually play, you know,
on the ball of defense. So it just becomes it
becomes very cumbersome. It becomes to the point where I
just feel like I'm taking shots in the beginning that
they're like, no, you're not going to do that. So
it was almost like I was this wild horse and
(18:29):
they were trying to put a saddle on my back,
and at first I was bucking it off. I was like, no,
I'm not going down with this bullshit. I'm going to
keep playing the way I want. And so Sergio and
I we got into a lot of arguments, but you
wise won the league, right well, we went to the
finals that year, so just making it to the finals,
(18:49):
So again, is it for any of the people listening.
The European has a kind of a relegation system where
you know, depending on how your team does in one
seat and that'll generate kind of where you're going. So
what happened was is we actually qualified for the highest
European tournament at that time, and it was something that
(19:10):
they hadn't done in the history or a long time
in the history of that team, so they were very excited.
There was a lot of momentum. We played very well.
We had a great unit as far as the collective
and all the guys, and so what I was starting
to realize is what I was trying to fight. I
really started to appreciate more and more as the season
was going on, I started to realize, you know, there
(19:33):
is a sense of family here. There is you know,
the collective of all of us. You know, when we
would go to meals, pregame meals, we were all, you know,
joining in with family stories and how we were doing.
And there was something that I didn't have in other teams.
So having gone that far, all the way to the finals,
it was something that looking back, I took with me
(19:55):
every year after that is we made it all the
way to the finals and we didn't win, and that hurt,
and I remember Sergio Scarleolo at the end of the
season was like, you know, you know, in in Europe
we have what's called Studio Pseudo Campions. It's like the
second place, and we didn't want to hear we were
second place, because you know, we had worked so hard
and we believe that we should have won that league,
(20:17):
but at that time TDK man race, so they had
our number, and uh so it just turned out that
from that point forward, I was like, I understand how
much you've got to put into this, and if I
ever get a chance to get all the way back here,
I'm never I'm not going to you know, take this
as a as something that you just you know, you
(20:38):
get there and you just kind of rest on what
you've been working for. I'm like, you know, I'm gonna
put as much as I can into winning every time
we get into this.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, so you get down with that year, what what
was the decision like as to what to do next?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So I actually had, you know, the shorter contracts in Europe,
so usually they'll have like there's a one plus one
and it'll be like, you know, you can agree on
it or the team will agree on it. And so
at the end of that I just I don't know,
I just didn't connect with the coaching and I knew
that a lot of the other guys, like Brent Scott,
(21:11):
who really became like a brother to me, they weren't
looking to bring him back and they were looking to
bring back Elmer Bennett and some other guys. And so
at that time, you know, I went home for the
off season and I told Warren, I said, I don't
think I want to go back there. And so then
this team, Pontiffanikos in Greece contacted him and they had
(21:33):
watched me play and they had scouted tapes and they
were like, look, you know, we'd like to sign pat
to a two year deal, and so I was like, okay.
Well at that time, so I'm back in the summer,
I start working out for Cleveland, the Calves, the Chicago Bulls.
And then when I when I finished working out with them,
(21:53):
both of those teams offered me a minimum deal. And
I'm back to that same situation like with the Knicks.
And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I
can take this now, or I can take even bigger
opportunities with bigger financial I guess contracts then what would
have been offered for these minimum deals. So then I
went and I signed a two year deal with Pontaikos.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Now, the only thing about signing Greece is people think
you're only going to get half your money, right. The
old story in Greece is guys are making half what
they tell you and they only get half of that
actually into their bank account. What's the reality now, you
played on the biggest club in Greece, what was that? Like?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I'm fortunate enough that my home, my contracts with Warren.
You know, I'd see the gentleman's side of Warren, I said,
but there was a bulldog behind the business side of him.
And I never lost one dollar with any of the
teams I played with, So you know, I get the
Pontonikos and two brothers own the team, and they also
(22:58):
own a very large pharmaceutical company. Me so the budget
for the whole team was so large that they would
delay monthly payments, you know, because there was so much
They were like, you know, trying to make as much
as they can on interest or wherever they had invested
their money. So there was times where I'd sit there
and I'd be like, look, you know this is very awkward,
(23:19):
but you know there's there's money that you know, we've
signed a contract for and uh So then I would
go like another two months and I remember I've gone
up to our coach, Coacho Bradovic, and I just started
creating a kind of disillusion that I had businesses and
people that were counting on me back home. I SA know,
I've got a business back home, and there are people
that I'm paying, and I got to make sure that
(23:39):
keeps going. So I might have to fly back during
the season to take care of us, to figure out
what assets we're going to like, you know, change over
so I can pay these people.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And remarkably got paid and remarkably.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeah, so that these two little guys come into the
to the locker room, and all the Greek nationals they're
all terrified of them. So these two little guys are
going around there just going you have a claim? Do
you have a claim? Do the And I was like,
I love to claim, you know, I just I just
know that I have an agreement. You know, we made
an agreement. And they're just looking at me like why
is this one guy not afraid of us? And I'm like,
(24:10):
you know, the reality is is you know, there's basketball everywhere,
so if you want to break the contract, we know
we can go somewhere else. So then after one game,
I'm we've we win a game, and I'm coming out
the tunnel and these two guys they're way up at
the top. They practically have two thrones sitting there watching
the games. And as I'm walking through the tunnel just
underneath them, they stop and they're like book, book, and
I look up at them and they're like, we sent
(24:32):
the money. And I was like, okay, thank you. You know,
I just walked into the locker room like, you know, awkward,
but I guess it's just the way it's done.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
How'd you play?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
So that first year I got in there, I was
I was the understudy to Dino Roger, and that first
coach that I had there, he was Dino's best friend,
and it was it was the most awkward situation because
you're coming from college. Now you have one experience in
(25:03):
Spain where everybody's treated the same. But Dino was the exception.
Dina would he says he was the best friend. He
didn't come to the training camp the same as us.
His girlfriend shows up at the training camp and stays
with him before games. The experience was extremely militant, so
they wanted us like all together at a hotel, taking
(25:25):
a nap, eating our meal before even home games. So
after the meal, when we'd all have to go to
sleep and go to our rooms, Dina would eat his
meal and he would just walk out into the parking
lant a lot and just start to walk away. And
so one day I was like, well, you know, my
wife is sitting at home. I think I'm just gonna
I can go take a rest at my house. So
I start walking out and the assistant coach comes out
(25:47):
to me and I'm just standing next to Dino and
we're both kind of walking to our cars, and he's like, Pat, pet,
where are you going? And they said, uh, I'm just
looking over at Dina. I said, I think I'm just
going to take a rest at home before the game.
And he's like, no, no, it's better that you you
come over here and stay in the hotel. And I
keep looking over at Dina, and Dino gives me this
as half smirk, like, hey, the rules don't apply to me,
(26:07):
they apply to you. And so I was like, you know,
in the best interest of not starting an argument, I
just walked back in and just followed suit. And again
it goes back into you know, like I think most
people who've played in Europe they realize like when you
get there, you're slowly being hypnotized into a culture. And
then before long, it's like you're just giving up your thoughts.
(26:29):
You're just like, Okay, this is what we do and
how we do it. And every year, Doug, every year
I had left in those nine years, as soon as
I got on the flight to leave, I would sit
there like shaking my head, like, oh my god. They
had a total hypnosis over me about what to think,
what to where, you know, what I was supposed to do.
(26:50):
And then you'd finally be freed of it because you
get you're allowed to think for yourself. And that's one
of the things that I recognized that, you know, European
mentality with the coaching and the whole idea of team
is extremely militant.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
It really, it really is the next year you got
to start, right, do you know what? Do you retire?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So yeah, no, So Dino then went over to our
rival team, to Olympiakos. He got another big, bigger contract,
so he ends up leaving big news inside the newspapers.
We signed a new coach. We didn't go as far
as we wanted in the European tournament, but we did
win the Greek League that year. So the next year
they bring in Zelko Abradovich and around that time if
(27:34):
you remember, you know, kind of in the world of basketball.
So it's around two thousand. Now, this is when Yugoslavian
coaches are really the pinnacle of thoughts of how to
produce the best basketball teams. So a lot of what
they were producing as far as like going on, like
we used to go to these training space in big guards.
(27:55):
They like big guards, good guard, Well, the point guard.
The point guard was broken down. It was like a science,
and I felt I almost felt bad for every point
guard we had because that's where our coach was. He
was he was he was a point guard in the past.
So everything they would do was just righteously told no,
you stop right here, and it's two dribbles, not four.
You know, you go over here and you make the
(28:17):
fake this way with your the bawl over your head
like this, and you do this and this is the
speed you do. So everything was broken down to this
exact ideal model. So when Obradovich came in, he changed
the whole system and he started challenging every every one
of our players. So then he also brought in at
the time Zelko Rebracha and so Zelko had just won
(28:38):
the Italian League and so when he came in, he
was the starting center, so he was you know, at
that time, we had Dan Bodi Roga and uh Zelko
uh Rebrecha came in and those guys were you know,
like at the time we were playing for the national team.
And this is what I was sharing about the USA team.
This is around the time that there was a huge
(28:59):
disruption in any type of international basketball, you know where
you know, from like two thousand and two thousand and one,
these guys were, you know, they were winning gold medals.
They were taking out our US station team. And that's
right around the time that they you know, they kind
of tapped USA tapped out and said, look, we got
to rethink this how we're building teams. And they got
(29:20):
Mike Krzewsky involved.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
So my.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
First pro experience I was with Inner Performances, right, So
they were the other big, big agency overseas, and in
two thousand we had a yugoslaviing coach and the plan
was because I could get Israeli citizenship, I'd be a
Bozeman B. Right, you were a Boseman as Bozman B.
(29:52):
But I remember what I remember is I go to
training camp and we have. The other point guard is
he mister Jennings who's like five eight, five nine but
unbelievable score, played in the NBA East Tennessee State, like
unbelievable score. And he's kind of an old head, right,
(30:13):
probably thirty at the time. And so I'm the backup
point guard. But and because I'm a I would have
been in Israeli Like, okay, if I it fits. But
the only like, the only thing you could do to
overcome because we had a yugoslavin coach, the only thing
you could do to overcome the fact that you're small
is you had to play the NBA and be able
(30:35):
to just go get buckets, right, Otherwise, if you weren't
six or five or above, you couldn't be a playmaker,
couldna be a point guard. Right. So this guy I'm
telling you, like in training camp, like he hated me.
And what's crazy is like I played mostly the way
that they'd want to play, but I was just small,
you know, just small, and but it was it was
amazing on how they truly believe like that there are
(30:58):
specific passes, a number of dribbles, a way to enter
the offense, a way to cut, like I mean as
you played out like specific, this is the only way
to do it. I'm like, okay, yeah it was. It
was very very confusing to me. But at that time, okay,
so now you've been in Greece for a couple of years,
(31:22):
right you started to I think was it when you
went back to Spain that you established yourself as probably
you know, the premiere or one of the two or
three premiere centers in Europe. What year do you think
that was the peak? Well?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I think so I finished Pontathonikos and I went to
a smaller team, Marousied and that's when I got my
opportunity to just to showcase what I could do. And
so I had a good year. And so coming out
of that, you know, a lot of people come up
to me. I remember we actually even played Pontathonikos in
our home gym and we beat them, and I hear
(31:58):
from one of my good friends, Johnny Rodd that the
two owners are yelling at the coaching staff like why
do we ever get rid of him? You know? And
so after that, I get a phone call from my
agent after that year that I played so well, and
he's like, hey, that first team wants to pick you up.
(32:18):
You know the team in Spain, Talos Saramico. So I'm
like really, He's like, yeah, they've been looking to get
you back for years, and I said okay. So then
they give me an offer. It's the largest offer that
I've ever ever had, and I'm like holy shit. So
I said, well, I've heard a little bit about this coach,
so let me do some research with Elan Bennett. So
I call Elmer and Elmer's like, Pat, you and this
(32:40):
guy will not mix. And I'm like, okay, all right.
So I called back my agent. I'm like, I don't
think it's going to work. He's like, okay, you sure,
and I'm like yeah, he's a lot of money. I said, no,
I understand. And now at that time, my wife and
I we just had newborn twins. They're premature, they had
heart monitors on them, and so now I'm not just
looking out for myself my wife. Now I'm looking out
(33:00):
for an environment that's gonna help me to be, you know,
a better father and not have a bunch of stuff
getting my get in my head. So anyways, he calls
me back like ten minutes later, he's at the upt
the offer. So now it's even more so. Now I'm thinking, Okay,
money's going to solve everything. So I go over sign
a deal, go in. I said, one thing I got
(33:21):
to get Now, this is at the point where I
played five years and money is really you know, even
though this is a great deal, money is not the ultimate.
Because I realized I've just missed my brothers and sisters
have missed weddings. I missed you know, I missed funerals.
And I was like, you know what, my family time
is going at the wayside here for all of this
(33:43):
stuff because you know, when I get over there, it's
so militant you're not allowed to leave anywhere you're.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It that it's like for people who don't understand, like
you end up missing it's a family like sports on
TV regular You know, on one hand, right, very profitable
life and in terms of basketball, and I'm guessing what
two practices a day everywhere you went correct, yep to
(34:08):
two practice to day. So it is a job. It
is a lot of work, but oftentimes like it's basketball,
it's not. But the all the things you're missing, like
there's a value, there's a tangible value to that, and
you can't something goes wrong or somebody needs help. You
can't hop on a flight and fly from Spain, or
agrees to just be home for a couple of days.
(34:29):
Like what you're in, you're in, you're out, you're at.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
That's exactly it. And so I asked to go to
my brother's wedding. So my brother was getting married in
Ireland during the preseason, and I said, you know, I'd
like to get you know, five days off to get
up there, go go be around my family. So the
owner of the the president of the team, Kerrie Hite,
he says, okay, So we signed a deal. Long story short,
(34:53):
didn't work out with the coach. She was like, no,
you got you got an option. You can either go
to your brother's wedding and be off this team, or
or you can stay with us. So I shook his hand,
I said, well, good luck to you this year. And
everybody in the town hated. They were like, oh, we
don't have a center now, like this is unbelievable. So
then you went to Reale right, No, So that I
(35:14):
get a call from my brother's wedding. I'm sitting there
and I'm leaving at one am. This is the coach.
He took my five days, and they agree. They said, okay,
you know, we'll let you go for two days. So
I go to my brother's wedding and I'm flying back
to Spain and someone in the lobby comes out and says, hey,
there's somebody from the Orlando Magic on the phone, and
so I get on the phone and this gentleman tells
(35:36):
me one of their scouts. He's like, look, Stephen Hunter
just tore his acl I think that you could make
the team. And he's like, how's Spain going? And I'm
like it's not going well. You know, I'm ready to
give everything back. So anyways, I go and I come back.
I leave taus Aamica and I make the Orlando Magic.
And I remember it was like everyone's like, you know,
(35:57):
where'd this guy come from. I'm like, hey, you know,
I've been in America up for a long time, you know.
And they're like, you know, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, like,
where where did this dude come from? And I'm like,
I've just been playing over seas for five years. So
then just getting my name back into the mix, you know.
I go in and I'm the starting center for like
the first nine or ten games. And you know, I
(36:17):
think that that kind of charged that. Okay, you know
this guy, he is an NBA caliber player. And then
all of a sudden it became to the point where
when I went back after that year, another just a
little tangent is you know. Doc asked me at the
end of the year, you know, would you like to
come back? And I said, Doc, I'm taking a huge
pay cut coming back here. This season didn't go the
(36:38):
way I would have liked. I think that my best
playing style is to play with European teams. And he understood,
so he said thank you for the opportunity. And that's
when I went back, and of course, like a year later,
I'm playing for Real Madrid and that's I think that's
where the Phoenix Suns then started to realize, like, look
that this guy can play.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Okay, So for people who don't know, we mentioned the
two practices a day, Okay, paint the picture of the differences.
Let's start with Morus, where you had that great year.
What was their facilities like, they have a practice gym,
they have a regular renaw what was it all like?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Very small, It's probably could fit a thousand people, smaller
than a high school. Gym. The there's two staircases going
one would go into the locker room, an unfinished locker room.
It was just a big concrete slab cell with like
a picket hose and everyone's sharing a shower. And then
(37:37):
on the other side of the basement there was a
weight room that would you know, had like two dumbbells
and you know, just a couple of kettle bells. So
that was that was that year. But it was a
great family experience, even though you knew that it didn't
have you know, the most high tech and best equipment.
You know, there was a lot of people around it.
There was a very good owner who cared a lot
(37:58):
about you know, the team and the guy and putting
together the best team that he could environment. So coming
from there and then and then coming over and then
you're walking into you know, the Orlando Magic practice facility
where I'm getting a retina scan to get in the
door to doing something like sci fi thing with my hand.
They can fingerprint it like two or three times. So
(38:20):
then there's like a laser beam that goes by my
hand to let me into the practice facility, you know,
with the gate. And then you get in there and
there's a bunch of range Rovers in Lamborghinis sitting in
the parking lot. It's a totally different experience.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And by the way, I'm looking at Mercy's jim pretty well.
It says it's seats seventeen hundred people. It does have
stands on the side there and I and this is
interesting because you played later in Russian Hinky Himty when
I played Tiny Gym and then we played I don't
know if mineral Water Mineral Buddha was in the league
(38:55):
when you played, but they literally had stands behind the basket,
a little bit behind the benches, and then they had
like a track that people were like four or five
deepont and then a wall on the other side. I
was like, how do they make any money on this deal?
Like how does this even work? Like such bullshit? It
was amazing.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, I don't think it's the same business model as
far as the owner's investment.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
It's all a mafia thing where they do.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Something, but it's no way. I mean, they're not even
making that much money. Like can you think about the
NBA with just the merchandise, you know, the ecosystem that
they have with merchandise, tickets, fan experience everything. I think
that most of Europe is just on the television rights alone,
you know, and I think that that's what they have.
And it's funny because you see such a difference in
(39:45):
the fans and of course the business owners that you know,
when you're in the when you're in the NBA, you
see all this sensationalism. Everything is just so heightened about
the experience and everything that's going on. When you get
to Europe, it's just very cut and dry. This is
what here for. You know, we're not here for all
these little frills and this and that. You're not here
to like sign jerseys and sign or sell any jerseys
(40:07):
or hats or anything like that. So it's it's it's
a very different world.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Okay, so you're you're with the Orlando Magic. You played
my guy Pat Garrity, right, ironic, ironical, you're the Irish one.
He's Irish but from Colorado. But if somebody would have said, hey,
who's the Irish national player for the Magic, they would put.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
And since then they still do it like someone will
see me and they don't recognize me, and I'll tell me,
you know, my name is Patt had played for the
Magic like, oh, you're the Irish guy. I'm like, yeah, Like, man,
you used to knock down those threes with that hitch
with your foot. I'm like, that's Pat Garrity. And I
don't even know if you know a lot of that.
It's like and you know, I don't. I don't look
(40:49):
to fight it. It's just like, you know, if they
if they even realize that, you know, there's another guy
named Pat on the magic, I'm like, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
What what was Grant Hill?
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Like?
Speaker 2 (40:59):
He was amazing. I remember when when I got there,
he was probably the first person just in the in
the preseason, just playing five on five pickup. He was
the first person that was like, man, you know, like
you can really play. And when someone at that caliber
tells you something, you know, you go home and you
tell your parents, you tell your wife.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I'm sitting there like it's boosting my confidence. And so
that was that was a really cool thing. And then
as the just before he got hurt, just playing with them,
you know, his court vision and his ability, like I
don't think he was attempting to get everyone the ball,
but him being on the court like I was, I
was getting a lot of points just for him seeing
me cut and drive and running, you know, running the floor.
(41:42):
So when he got hurt, it was like everything just
completely changed like this, the whole system of the way
the ball moved started to change. And then you know,
of course, then it was it became really more on
Mike Miller and Tracy McGrady that would get the ball
all the time. But when Grant was there, I remember
I was reading. I was reading a book, like I
(42:03):
think it was like a Motley Crue book or something,
and it was one of these documentaries had a lot
of just incredible stories, and I remember it just on
the bus. I just finished it and he was like, hey,
you know, can I read that? I'll make sure. And
I'm thinking, what would Grant Hill want to be reading
something about like a heavy metal band? But you know,
he just opened to you know, a lot of conversation.
And I've seen him since he's he's still the same
(42:25):
person's like you can sit there and you can have
a chat about anything and everything, and you know, there's
no ego inside of him. He's just you know, he's
sitting there and he's a very caring individual.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
That was the last year Sean Kemp was in the league. Yeah,
give me your best Sean Kemp story.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
If I do this, this, this podcast might go I
don't know, might go over to someplace you don't want
it to hear. That was my road guy, So Sean
right away, Sean and Darryl Armstrong of myself, we we
got along great, and so like whenever we weren't playing
or we were on the road, you know, we were
(43:03):
the three guys that would go out and get a beer.
And I just remember there was a there was a
road trip where let's just say it was a five
game stretch, and so the first time we get we
pull into whoever it was, let's just say it's Denver,
we go out, we have a few too many. We're
sitting there the next day after the game, we're showering up.
Sean's probably had twelve points, He's got like nine rebounds,
(43:26):
Darryl's got like eighteen points, like twelve assists, and I'm
sitting there with one point and you know, probably I
fouled out. And then the next game, same thing happens again.
Then by the third game and we're going out, you know,
all the time, they're sitting there like, let's go road dogs.
This is working When I was like, guys, We're sitting
in the shower and I'm like, guys, I don't know
if this is working out for me, you know, I like,
(43:49):
I know we're going out and having fun, but I'm
just not playing the well. And they're like, don't rule this, perk,
don't rule this. This is good, and I'm like, I
don't think this is good.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
We're going out tonight, and I'm like, okay, whatever, And
I just remember like Doc Rivers coming up to me
later and he's like pack Sean and Darryl. You know,
they get after it pretty hard. I know you've got
a good head on your shoulders, like you need to
look out for them. We're gonna need them. And I'm
like okay, and I'm like, who's looking out for me?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
You know?
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah? Just great, great guys, great memories. You know. Just
it's just funny at that point, because you know, like
with any athlete, you're looking for some sort of consistency
to say, how are we live in our lives that
were able to go out here and still perform, and
their variables were going out with me having a few
beers and then at the end they were sitting there
comparing stats. But as long as theirs were good and
(44:41):
mine were shit, everything was fine.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Why Tracey McGrady at that time should have been like
at his peak right the next year he actually next
two years he led the league in scoring. Yeah, but
he didn't win. Okay, didn't win.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Why I'd say, just experience you know again, is you know,
coming from Toronto. Uh, you know, I don't think. I
don't think you can. Ever, how would I say this
in an approach? It's like saying to somebody, I want
you to think of a color you've never thought of before.
You know, it's impossible. So how could he think differently
(45:20):
if he's never been all the way to the top
to realize it, Like, you know, in a comparison like
when I went when I was playing with Spain and
we went all the way to the finals. That was
the that was the most success that I've ever experienced.
So everything that was coming in was a new minute,
it was a new ten minutes, it was a new hour.
So I was like, wow, I've never been in this situation.
When I look back at Tracy, you know, here here's
(45:40):
all this talent. You know, great guy, but you know, leadership,
they say, is lonely. So I think that a lot
of times he was leading just by his physical example,
But was it doing enough, you know outside the court,
you know, was he putting enough demand on us and
what we were doing, because I remember I went through
a whole come of finest thing again where I just sank,
(46:02):
and I remember he just kept coming up to me
like as if it was you know, some sort of
valuable counseling. He's like, Pat, you're fucking good enough, Let's go,
and I'll just be like okay, you know, and that
would be it. So I think going into that year,
you know, we're in the playoffs, you know, we're up
against Detroit, and then you know, he communicates something into
(46:25):
the newspaper about how easily we're rolling through Detroit. Woke
them up. So again as there's there's another moment where
I'm sure he said, I'll never do that again, you know.
And I think that a lot of a lot of
what the magic organization and I'm not trying to bash them,
but a lot of what the magic organization is it
looks like guesswork at times. How do we come back
(46:46):
and start winning? How do we get to that caliber,
and they're building it around Tracy and they've got the
the injury with Grant. So I think, you know, a
guy like me at the starting center, it's like everyone's like,
who the hell is that guy? So I think that
even the roster at the time was not going to
be one that was going to support him to go far,
you know, in that year?
Speaker 1 (47:06):
What was Ben Wallace like to guard?
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Uh? He's a beast, you know. I think there's a
lot of I think there's a lot of guys that
fit the bill as far as you know the size. Uh,
there's there's stats all that, but here's this unorthodox six
's eight guy playing center, which is hulk strength and
just his hard hat, you know, going out.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
And so.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I just remember that, you know, he was good friends
with Darryl Armstrong, so I would get a lot of
communication of like what he was thinking during the playoffs
and what he was saying. And I just remember thinking that,
you know, this guy is you know, somebody that I
would love to find out what he's doing and how
he's you know, how he's you know, figuring out how
I get these extra rebounds. You know, what are what
(47:53):
are the techniques that he's using but uh, just just
a beast at that time.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Doc obously he catches a lot of shit because how
many of his teams have been up three games to one?
This was like the first This was the first one. Right,
you have three games one? You meant to it? What
Tracy like? You lived it? How much how much of
the fault of blame does Doc deserve?
Speaker 2 (48:17):
I could say that I don't know every conversation he
was having behind the scenes with players. I think that,
of course, you know, you're you're managing ego when you're
an NBA coach, you're also putting together you know, the
best rotations that you can. You're looking at, of course,
everything that you're doing and is it working. So at
that time it was working. But I do know this
(48:38):
when we went into that that last game. Doc's a
great motivator. But I don't know where the hell he
got his last motivational speech from, because it was something
about how Coca Cola is the number one selling soda
and it's it puts millions of dollars into its marketing.
(48:59):
And then he's comparing Pepsi and Pepsi does this and
Coke does this, and I'll tell you what by the
end of the damn motivational speech, I think we're all
thirsty for a soda.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
It was like I woked over at Darrel Armstrong and
I was like, what the hell did that all mean?
And Darrel's just just be ready tonight, and I was like, okay,
you know, we go off and we lose the game.
But for that to be his first one, I did
hear that and rightfully so I'll own this. You know
again is he said, if you look back on those rosters,
(49:30):
especially the first one, you know, I don't even know
if we should have been in the playoffs. So he
put a lot of work into the regular season, and
I remember his door was always open, you know. He
communicated to me all the time. You know, we had
just lost Horace Grant in the beginning the beginning of
the season with you know, a confrontation that happened on
one of our plane rides. And when Horace was left
(49:53):
from the team. The next day, Doc was talking to
me about I'm going to start you. I believe in you.
I think he can do this, and again is it
was like, Okay, I've never had a coach like this
at this level. That's talking to me about belief and
allowing me to do, you know, whatever I could do
on the floor. But again as I think that he's
learned a lot from it.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
No, it's interesting you point out right, uh, that that
roster if you had a Horace Grant and you have
Grant Hill, well, now that's much different roster than the
one that ended up the season where you have you know,
Gordon Geirchik, Drew Drew Gooden who's super young at the time,
Pat Garrity, Darrel Armstrong and Tracy Gray. That's that's the
starting lineup, you know, it's the starting lamp in that
(50:35):
in that last game. What happened? What gimme what happened?
What happened with with Horace and what was the confrontation? Oh?
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Man, so we're coming in from I think we're out
west and we're getting on the plane and uh, Horace
is one of the last to get on. So so
i'm I would sit to the right side of the
plane and Sean Kemp was in front of me. I
can't remember, Oh, Horace would have been behind me, and
then just to my left there's a long couch and
(51:05):
of course we all know that's Tracy's couch like he's
gonna sleep, he's gonna get rest. And so just in
front of him there's the other rookie, Ryan from Notre Dame.
So so we're sitting there and Horace, yeah, Ryan Humphreys.
They had a loss there for his name, so Ryan said.
So then Horace gets on and he's talking to shelling
(51:28):
a little bit and this and the other, and next
thing you know, Tracy says something to him to Horace
about something he's been saying, and he's like, you know,
I heard you. You know you've been sharing something about
you know, leadership of the team and this and the other.
And Horace looks over at Tracy and he gets so
emotional he starts stuttering, and next thing you know, he's
(51:53):
just like no, no, no, no, that's not me. And again,
I won't get into all the day cussing he did,
but he was saying, you know, Doc was behind some
of this. So then he turns his back towards the
back of the planes and to the front and he's
talking to Tracy and Darrel Armstrong gets up and Seawan's
talking about They're like cool it, calm down, this and
the other. The next thing, you know, Doc Rivers is
(52:13):
right behind Horace As. He's on this just rant about,
you know, coasing out Doc, and I'm sitting there, I
got I got front row seats. Man, I'm sitting there.
Connor McGregor like, I'm just like, holy shit. And I
look over and Ryan Humphrey's got his head buried in
a magazine. I'm like, now, dude, you want to watch
all of this, you know, So I'm watching this, and uh,
(52:34):
I mean, Doc is a big man, so he's like, hey,
h He says, a horse, you got something to say
to me? And horse turns around and he's looking right
down in his face and he's like yeah. And they
start going at it right and then Sean and myself
and Tracy we're all gettingup. We're splitting them apart. Nothing
but no swings were thrown split them up. And then
(52:58):
we're all like, holy shit, to that just happened. You know,
that just happened. And then we get off the plane,
you know, and everyone's just getting out. And then the
next day, you know, they teld me that Horas has
been released from the team, and that's this.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
And this this is you coming back from Europe where
it's a dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Right, yeah, so I'm like, this is insane. Yes, yeah,
it was. It was a totally new experience because you
realize that, you know, we're all grown ass men and
uh you know when I mean again, just like in
any family, I still believe like with any culture, any community,
any group, any tribe, you have to go through adversity,
(53:35):
and adversity on the other side of it will start
to build or forge something else. And so that's where
the adversity was starting in the very beginning of that season.
And there was some communication patterns that I was noticing
as a trend, like going, Okay, something is happening here
because someone's not taking the reins, or someone's complaining about
their position and they're they're starting to point fingers.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
All right, that's it for part two of my talk
with pepperg. Part three, we'll get you to the Phoenix
Suns experience and what life is like for him after basketball.
What's it like to shut it down, to know that
you're done and then to kind of put your American
life sort of back together and figure out what you
want to do next. A collection of the thoughts and stories,
(54:23):
and I think you'll be interested to hear what it
was like to play in Phoenix when he had to
play in the playoffs after a gigantic suspension of Boris
Dial and Amari Stottam I remember that when they're playing
the San Antonio Spurs in the NBA playoffs. Yeah, it
was Pepper. What went so wrong for him in that game?
(54:44):
You'll find out on Part three. In the meantime, Reminded
of Doug Otleib Show is daily three to five Eastern time,
noon to too Pacific. We also have the daily podcast
which is Uncensored, Unfiltered you Love. It's called in the Bonus.
That's on the iHeartRadio app. Just download wherever you download.
Pod guests in the Bonus or the Doug Gottlieb Show.
Thank you so much for listening on Doug Gottlieb. This
(55:05):
is all ball
Speaker 3 (55:24):
H
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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