October 12, 2024 • 16 mins
Guest host Richard Syrett and Dr. George Schwimmer explore his theory that there were two different men named Lee and Harvey Oswald who were both involved independently in the plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy, and how their actions were intentionally made confusing to make sure the true plot was never uncovered.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight. From Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
We are back with George Swimmer, the author of Oswald
and Kennedy The Whole Story, and previous to that he
published Doppelganger, The Legend of Lee Harvey Oswald. So I
want to play a little I'll call it a little
game here. George called which Oswald is which? So I'm
just going to run by some sort of pivotal moments
in the Oswald timeline and you just we don't have
(00:27):
to get too deep into each one, but just tell
so we can track, you know, who's who here. You
mentioned this one already. We talked about Camp Pendleton in
San Diego. Which Oswald is training as a marine at
Camp Pendleton in San Diego in nineteen fifty seven? Is
it Lee or Harvey?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Harvey is the Marine Corps base. And based on some information,
I believe that Lee was at the language school. I
don't know which service runs at, but he was at
this language school in southern California and learning Spanish. And
(01:08):
the reason that I'm saying that is a deduction. But
later on I found information that he was in he
spoke fluent Spanish and so he didn't study Spanish in
high school and he had no background in Spanish. So
the only thing I can assume him is that he
(01:30):
spent the last year in the Marine Corps learning how
to speak Spanish because he was going to work with
the anti Castro exiles in Florida and in Louisiana.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So Harvey is at Camp Pendleton. Lee is at Langley, Okay?
So which Oswald arrives in Japan in September fifty seven
and stationed at Sugi Air Force Base Lee? That's Lee, Okay? Which?
And do we know in September fifty seven? Where is
(02:07):
Harvey at?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Do we know? I'm not actually sure because there was
a lot of material. Anybody who's interested in that, they
can read John Armstone's Armstrong's book Harvey and Lee. What
(02:28):
happened was Harvey joined the Marines the same time that
Lee did, even though Harvey was a year younger. You
look at his photograph and he looks like a little kid.
But anyway, both she and Lee were trained in radar,
and apparently basic training and training and radar triok about
(02:53):
a year and then for some reason I can't figure
out what they pulled them out of the Marines, and
Harvey went back to New Orleans and he was working
there for I don't know, eight or ten months, just
an ordinary job. And then he came back into the
(03:14):
Marines and he showed up around October of that year,
and that's when he switched identities with lee Is after
he finished a job in New Orleans and went back
into the Marines. And that was in the fall of nineteen.
(03:36):
I guess it was fifty eight.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Okay, which Oswald departs the United States in nineteen fifty
nine by way of I think he went from England
to Helsinki to his final destination in the Soviet Union
in fifty nine.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I was, yeah, well that was Harvey and he was
doing what he was told, which is being a so
called defector and then positively double ash.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And so Harvey marries Marina Oswald and Moscow in April
of sixty one.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Right, I don't think you've met her in Moscow. I
think he married her in Minsk.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Okay, right, right, you're right, Minsk. Sorry, So, and that.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Is there any point? I mean, obviously you found instances
where there was a Harvey is one in one location
and Lee's in another. I mean, you can't have too.
Lee Harvey Oswald's in two different locations at the same time.
Aren't they starting to I mean, aren't they risking tripping
themselves up? Isn't someone gonna say, wait a minute, you
(04:44):
said that Lee Harvey Oswald was or Harvey was in Minsk,
and but he was over here, you know, in Fort
Worth or New Orleans or wherever. Aren't they gonna aren't
they risking tripping themselves up or exposing this operation?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
No?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
See, one on one. One of the characteristics of any
intelligence service is to create confusion, and so they're perfectly
happy to confuse people. And so a lot of times
when the Warrant Commission would get contradictory facts, they'd say, oh, well,
you know, that's just a witness who is a misidentifying
(05:21):
this latter or other thing. I'll let me mention one
thing to you that shows you what goes on Harvey
with the New Orleans and one of the things he
was tasked to do by the CIA, he was helping
(05:41):
to develop a cancer. This is crazy, but the CIA
wanted to create a cancer, fast acting cancer and use
it to kill Castro. Now, this is one of those
any ideas that the CIA had during the fifties and sixties. Anyway,
he was a doctor called doctor Mary Sherman, and she
(06:04):
was a very well known physician and she was in
charge of doing this. So Harvey's a job wasn't very much,
you know, we just he killed some mice to get
the cancer cells and so on. Anyway, they did find
out they did find a quick killing cancer, and so
that Harvey supposedly he was tasked with taking these cancer
(06:30):
cells and a special container to Mexico City. And now
these cells are very delicate, and so he couldn't get
on a bus and go to Mexico City. So I
am assuming that he was flown there, and I'm making
a guess he was flown there in some planes that
were all owned by oil companies, because there's very clearly
(06:54):
some millionaire oil and were involved one way or another
with this thing. So Harvey he went to Mexico City
supposedly to go and hand off these cancer cells to
somebody who would take it to Cuba and then somehow
they would inject it in Castro and he died of
(07:15):
this cancer. I mean, it's a looney thing, but they
were serious about it. Okay, Nobody knows about that except
his lover. He had a lover in the New Orleans
Judith Barry Baker. Yes, and she's the one who wrote
in her book that he went to Mexico City by plane. Apparently.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, I think this is also covered in Sorry, George,
I think it's also covered in Doctor Mary's Monkey by
Edward Haslam.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Okay, so, but on the record quote Lee, Harvey Oswald,
which actually had to be Lee, went from I'm not
sure if he started from Dallas, but anyway he went.
He went to He went to mexic Pro City on
two different buses. And while he was on that bus,
(08:06):
the second bus, he started talking to a couple of
young women and he told them he'd been in Russia,
and then he pulled out a past passport with Russian
stamps on it. Now, the only problem with that is
that Harvey Oswald had gotten a new passport in New
(08:28):
Orleans about a month before, so Hardy must have turned
in his old passport and the CIA gave it to Lee. Now,
if you go, if you look in my book, and
then you can look online, there's a lot of other pictures.
There are many pictures, including the IDs, A couple of
IDs and so on that people claim was Lee Harvey Oswald.
(08:52):
But people who have done a photo analysis say that
the right side of the pictures is the right side
of Lee's face and the left side of the picture
is the left side of Harvey's face. And I have
some of those photographs in my book. So anyway, Lee
was on this bus and he had this Russian passport,
(09:14):
so we know there are two different people, ones on
a bus and oness on a plane.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Fascinating back to which Oswald is which which Oswald is
distributing Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets in New Orleans in
sixty early sixty three.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
That was Harvey. And I once ran across a vague
mention that Harvey had actually given out these pamphlets in
Dallas for I don't know, it was just a very
brief period, but I couldn't find anything more on that.
It was just a mention somewhere by someone. But anyway,
he did it in New Orleans. Now, this is where
(09:56):
the thing gets very confusing but very interesting. When Harvey
came back from Russia, he didn't do anything. He got
a job paying a dollar twenty five cents an hour
U and that was a very very medial job. Well,
then then he was asked to come to Dallas by
(10:20):
a Russian named George lawn Shilder. I don't want to
get that about launch story. And then after he got
to Dallas, eventually he was sent to New Orleans. As
you mentioned. Now the thing about New Orleans is aren't
interesting because he was doing a couple of legitimate intelligence
intelligence work down in New Orleans and at the same
(10:43):
time he was being set up by the conspirators to
be a pants a patsy. Now the handing out the
pamphlets want to set him up as a castro loving patsy.
He handed out the leaflets, he got on radio, he
got on television, he got arrested, and so he was.
(11:04):
He was known in New Orleans as a quote castro unquote.
That was his second personality. And the guy, the guy
that was in charge Balls, his name was David Philip.
David Philip I can't think it was last night for
right now, but anyway, he was in charge of Harvey.
(11:28):
And so what the original persona was a Russian Russian
loving defector, and then he goes to New York and
he adds to it a castro loving person. And actually
when he was in the last year he was in
the Marines, he told people that he was planning to
go and join Castro's army. So anyway, those are the
(11:53):
those are the things that he was being set up with.
The legitimate things he was doing was he was doing
this cancer helping with the cancer research. Then he was
he was involved in some way or another with training
the Cuban exiles. And I spoke back to the question you
(12:15):
had of it is one day I met each other.
There's a photograph. It's only something that somebody told about.
I couldn't find that. Nobody, nobody knows what it is.
But anyway, this photograph, which the government probably has, showed
Harvey and Olshold and David Attlee Phillips.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And the yeah that was the handler.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yeah, that time that both both Oswald's were at that
particular camp helping him train. So by that time both
of them knew each other.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Oh wait a second, you're saying that somewhere there is
in existence a photograph showing Harvey and Lee Oswald, the
two doppel gangers in the same photograph.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
That's what That's what I read. You know, I haven't
seen it. I can only tell you that somebody claimed
that there was a photograph and the government has it.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
So let's talk about the Texas Book Depository building. Harvey
is hired to work there.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Or is it Lee Harvey is? And actually, you know
he's hired in name only because Harvey had three jobs
when he came back from Russia. Had the first job
I mentioned earlier. Then he had a job in New Orleans,
and then he had this job in Dallas, and all
(13:39):
three jobs were arranged for him by the CIA, So
you know, it was a normal hire, and that shout
was very Baker said that Harvey told her that the
so called superintendent of the Texas School but repository knew
that Harvey was an informer for the FBI. So you know,
(14:03):
if you want to get into that, there's a lot
of funny stuff going on with the Texas School Books topauditory.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah, before that, I got one more, Which Oswald is which,
and that has to do with that famous photograph in
the backyard of well whichever. Oswald was living at two
hundred and fourteen West Neely Street in Dallas, where he's
holding the Manlika the Menlca carcano rifle in one hand
and he's got the two communist or socialist newspapers in
(14:32):
the other. Is that Harvey or is that Lee? It's
an either one oh of the plot sickens.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
It's a phony picture. They superimposed the face of Harvey
from the lifts up onto another figure, and the people
who've analyze the photograph, I believe the figure is a
(15:03):
police photographer, and you can tell there's something wrong with it.
I don't want to get too all the technicogy details,
but the shadows are all wrong. And what is the
most obvious thing is when you enlarge the photographs, which
I was able to do on my computer, I could
(15:24):
see with the naked eye. You don't need to analyze anything.
You can see that in Harvey's booking photo in Dallas,
his chin is almost to a point, very narrow, narrow chin,
and there's very little at the very bottom of the shin.
And you look at the picture on the so called
(15:47):
backyard photo and the chin is square and it's quite wide,
so you can tell immediately that it's not the same chin.
And there's lots of other things I didn't want to
get into, but there are people of written articles and
books about all the things that are wrong with a photograph,
and I think every researcher agrees at this point that
(16:08):
this is a pony photograph. I also theorized that this
building where the photograph was taken was a CIA safehouse
and it was used because they had a backyard which
was protected and they could go and use the backyard
(16:29):
to make the picture.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot
com for more
Now here's a highlight. From Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
We are back with George Swimmer, the author of Oswald
and Kennedy The Whole Story, and previous to that he
published Doppelganger, The Legend of Lee Harvey Oswald. So I
want to play a little I'll call it a little
game here. George called which Oswald is which? So I'm
just going to run by some sort of pivotal moments
in the Oswald timeline and you just we don't have
(00:27):
to get too deep into each one, but just tell
so we can track, you know, who's who here. You
mentioned this one already. We talked about Camp Pendleton in
San Diego. Which Oswald is training as a marine at
Camp Pendleton in San Diego in nineteen fifty seven? Is
it Lee or Harvey?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Harvey is the Marine Corps base. And based on some information,
I believe that Lee was at the language school. I
don't know which service runs at, but he was at
this language school in southern California and learning Spanish. And
(01:08):
the reason that I'm saying that is a deduction. But
later on I found information that he was in he
spoke fluent Spanish and so he didn't study Spanish in
high school and he had no background in Spanish. So
the only thing I can assume him is that he
(01:30):
spent the last year in the Marine Corps learning how
to speak Spanish because he was going to work with
the anti Castro exiles in Florida and in Louisiana.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So Harvey is at Camp Pendleton. Lee is at Langley, Okay?
So which Oswald arrives in Japan in September fifty seven
and stationed at Sugi Air Force Base Lee? That's Lee, Okay? Which?
And do we know in September fifty seven? Where is
(02:07):
Harvey at?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Do we know? I'm not actually sure because there was
a lot of material. Anybody who's interested in that, they
can read John Armstone's Armstrong's book Harvey and Lee. What
(02:28):
happened was Harvey joined the Marines the same time that
Lee did, even though Harvey was a year younger. You
look at his photograph and he looks like a little kid.
But anyway, both she and Lee were trained in radar,
and apparently basic training and training and radar triok about
(02:53):
a year and then for some reason I can't figure
out what they pulled them out of the Marines, and
Harvey went back to New Orleans and he was working
there for I don't know, eight or ten months, just
an ordinary job. And then he came back into the
(03:14):
Marines and he showed up around October of that year,
and that's when he switched identities with lee Is after
he finished a job in New Orleans and went back
into the Marines. And that was in the fall of nineteen.
(03:36):
I guess it was fifty eight.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Okay, which Oswald departs the United States in nineteen fifty
nine by way of I think he went from England
to Helsinki to his final destination in the Soviet Union
in fifty nine.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I was, yeah, well that was Harvey and he was
doing what he was told, which is being a so
called defector and then positively double ash.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And so Harvey marries Marina Oswald and Moscow in April
of sixty one.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Right, I don't think you've met her in Moscow. I
think he married her in Minsk.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Okay, right, right, you're right, Minsk. Sorry, So, and that.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Is there any point? I mean, obviously you found instances
where there was a Harvey is one in one location
and Lee's in another. I mean, you can't have too.
Lee Harvey Oswald's in two different locations at the same time.
Aren't they starting to I mean, aren't they risking tripping
themselves up? Isn't someone gonna say, wait a minute, you
(04:44):
said that Lee Harvey Oswald was or Harvey was in Minsk,
and but he was over here, you know, in Fort
Worth or New Orleans or wherever. Aren't they gonna aren't
they risking tripping themselves up or exposing this operation?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
No?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
See, one on one. One of the characteristics of any
intelligence service is to create confusion, and so they're perfectly
happy to confuse people. And so a lot of times
when the Warrant Commission would get contradictory facts, they'd say, oh, well,
you know, that's just a witness who is a misidentifying
(05:21):
this latter or other thing. I'll let me mention one
thing to you that shows you what goes on Harvey
with the New Orleans and one of the things he
was tasked to do by the CIA, he was helping
(05:41):
to develop a cancer. This is crazy, but the CIA
wanted to create a cancer, fast acting cancer and use
it to kill Castro. Now, this is one of those
any ideas that the CIA had during the fifties and sixties. Anyway,
he was a doctor called doctor Mary Sherman, and she
(06:04):
was a very well known physician and she was in
charge of doing this. So Harvey's a job wasn't very much,
you know, we just he killed some mice to get
the cancer cells and so on. Anyway, they did find
out they did find a quick killing cancer, and so
that Harvey supposedly he was tasked with taking these cancer
(06:30):
cells and a special container to Mexico City. And now
these cells are very delicate, and so he couldn't get
on a bus and go to Mexico City. So I
am assuming that he was flown there, and I'm making
a guess he was flown there in some planes that
were all owned by oil companies, because there's very clearly
(06:54):
some millionaire oil and were involved one way or another
with this thing. So Harvey he went to Mexico City
supposedly to go and hand off these cancer cells to
somebody who would take it to Cuba and then somehow
they would inject it in Castro and he died of
(07:15):
this cancer. I mean, it's a looney thing, but they
were serious about it. Okay, Nobody knows about that except
his lover. He had a lover in the New Orleans
Judith Barry Baker. Yes, and she's the one who wrote
in her book that he went to Mexico City by plane. Apparently.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, I think this is also covered in Sorry, George,
I think it's also covered in Doctor Mary's Monkey by
Edward Haslam.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Okay, so, but on the record quote Lee, Harvey Oswald,
which actually had to be Lee, went from I'm not
sure if he started from Dallas, but anyway he went.
He went to He went to mexic Pro City on
two different buses. And while he was on that bus,
(08:06):
the second bus, he started talking to a couple of
young women and he told them he'd been in Russia,
and then he pulled out a past passport with Russian
stamps on it. Now, the only problem with that is
that Harvey Oswald had gotten a new passport in New
(08:28):
Orleans about a month before, so Hardy must have turned
in his old passport and the CIA gave it to Lee. Now,
if you go, if you look in my book, and
then you can look online, there's a lot of other pictures.
There are many pictures, including the IDs, A couple of
IDs and so on that people claim was Lee Harvey Oswald.
(08:52):
But people who have done a photo analysis say that
the right side of the pictures is the right side
of Lee's face and the left side of the picture
is the left side of Harvey's face. And I have
some of those photographs in my book. So anyway, Lee
was on this bus and he had this Russian passport,
(09:14):
so we know there are two different people, ones on
a bus and oness on a plane.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Fascinating back to which Oswald is which which Oswald is
distributing Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets in New Orleans in
sixty early sixty three.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
That was Harvey. And I once ran across a vague
mention that Harvey had actually given out these pamphlets in
Dallas for I don't know, it was just a very
brief period, but I couldn't find anything more on that.
It was just a mention somewhere by someone. But anyway,
he did it in New Orleans. Now, this is where
(09:56):
the thing gets very confusing but very interesting. When Harvey
came back from Russia, he didn't do anything. He got
a job paying a dollar twenty five cents an hour
U and that was a very very medial job. Well,
then then he was asked to come to Dallas by
(10:20):
a Russian named George lawn Shilder. I don't want to
get that about launch story. And then after he got
to Dallas, eventually he was sent to New Orleans. As
you mentioned. Now the thing about New Orleans is aren't
interesting because he was doing a couple of legitimate intelligence
intelligence work down in New Orleans and at the same
(10:43):
time he was being set up by the conspirators to
be a pants a patsy. Now the handing out the
pamphlets want to set him up as a castro loving patsy.
He handed out the leaflets, he got on radio, he
got on television, he got arrested, and so he was.
(11:04):
He was known in New Orleans as a quote castro unquote.
That was his second personality. And the guy, the guy
that was in charge Balls, his name was David Philip.
David Philip I can't think it was last night for
right now, but anyway, he was in charge of Harvey.
(11:28):
And so what the original persona was a Russian Russian
loving defector, and then he goes to New York and
he adds to it a castro loving person. And actually
when he was in the last year he was in
the Marines, he told people that he was planning to
go and join Castro's army. So anyway, those are the
(11:53):
those are the things that he was being set up with.
The legitimate things he was doing was he was doing
this cancer helping with the cancer research. Then he was
he was involved in some way or another with training
the Cuban exiles. And I spoke back to the question you
(12:15):
had of it is one day I met each other.
There's a photograph. It's only something that somebody told about.
I couldn't find that. Nobody, nobody knows what it is.
But anyway, this photograph, which the government probably has, showed
Harvey and Olshold and David Attlee Phillips.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And the yeah that was the handler.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yeah, that time that both both Oswald's were at that
particular camp helping him train. So by that time both
of them knew each other.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Oh wait a second, you're saying that somewhere there is
in existence a photograph showing Harvey and Lee Oswald, the
two doppel gangers in the same photograph.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
That's what That's what I read. You know, I haven't
seen it. I can only tell you that somebody claimed
that there was a photograph and the government has it.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
So let's talk about the Texas Book Depository building. Harvey
is hired to work there.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Or is it Lee Harvey is? And actually, you know
he's hired in name only because Harvey had three jobs
when he came back from Russia. Had the first job
I mentioned earlier. Then he had a job in New Orleans,
and then he had this job in Dallas, and all
(13:39):
three jobs were arranged for him by the CIA, So
you know, it was a normal hire, and that shout
was very Baker said that Harvey told her that the
so called superintendent of the Texas School but repository knew
that Harvey was an informer for the FBI. So you know,
(14:03):
if you want to get into that, there's a lot
of funny stuff going on with the Texas School Books topauditory.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah, before that, I got one more, Which Oswald is which,
and that has to do with that famous photograph in
the backyard of well whichever. Oswald was living at two
hundred and fourteen West Neely Street in Dallas, where he's
holding the Manlika the Menlca carcano rifle in one hand
and he's got the two communist or socialist newspapers in
(14:32):
the other. Is that Harvey or is that Lee? It's
an either one oh of the plot sickens.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
It's a phony picture. They superimposed the face of Harvey
from the lifts up onto another figure, and the people
who've analyze the photograph, I believe the figure is a
(15:03):
police photographer, and you can tell there's something wrong with it.
I don't want to get too all the technicogy details,
but the shadows are all wrong. And what is the
most obvious thing is when you enlarge the photographs, which
I was able to do on my computer, I could
(15:24):
see with the naked eye. You don't need to analyze anything.
You can see that in Harvey's booking photo in Dallas,
his chin is almost to a point, very narrow, narrow chin,
and there's very little at the very bottom of the shin.
And you look at the picture on the so called
(15:47):
backyard photo and the chin is square and it's quite wide,
so you can tell immediately that it's not the same chin.
And there's lots of other things I didn't want to
get into, but there are people of written articles and
books about all the things that are wrong with a photograph,
and I think every researcher agrees at this point that
(16:08):
this is a pony photograph. I also theorized that this
building where the photograph was taken was a CIA safehouse
and it was used because they had a backyard which
was protected and they could go and use the backyard
(16:29):
to make the picture.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot
com for more
The Best of Coast to Coast AM News
Host
George Noory
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