January 31, 2025 • 17 mins
George Noory and author Keith Giles explore the lost Gospel of Thomas in the Bible, how its messages from Jesus are different from the other traditional Bible passages, and how the Gospel overlaps with what scientists say about quantum physics and the nature of reality.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to George g Nororay along with Keith Giles. Keith,
why did it take so long to get information about
the Gospel of Thomas.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Yeah, well, it's because it was when it was discovered
in nineteen forty five. You know, there was this giant
jar with a whole lot I think it maybe forty
to fifty different texts that were you know, all found together.
They had to be you know, cataloged and translated, and
so it was translated into English. Discovered in nineteen forty five,
(00:35):
it wasn't translated in English until nineteen fifty nine, and
then I don't think they published a popular version that
you could go buy in the store and read until
like the seventies. So, you know, the scholarship for the
Gospel of Thomas is really you know, it's been in
my lifetime, really and when you compare that to the
other Gospels, you know, it's been over two thousand years
(00:57):
worth of scholarship. So it's really brand new for people
to begin to study and read the Gospel of Thomas
or the Gospel of Mary and some of the other
texts that were just have been discovered recently to figure
out what they're about. But I wanted to you had
asked me before the break about you know what it
was that I found so fascinating in the Gospel of Thomas.
(01:20):
So let me just let me give you an example.
This is exactly kind of what happened to me when
I was on the plane reading the book. So in
saying number seven, this is a quote from the Gospel
of Thomas, it says this, Jesus says, bless it is
the lion that becomes a man when consumed by the man,
and curse it is the man whom the lion consumes,
and the man becomes a lion. Now that's one of
(01:42):
those things that the first time I read it, I thought,
this is nonsense, it doesn't make any sense, and I
wanted to throw it against the wall. But when I
saw Duffy's book, what he pointed out was that the
only way to make sense of the Gospel of Thomas,
the sayings of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas, was
to read them through the lens of non duality, to
read them from the lens the idea that we are
(02:04):
all connected right, that there's no separation. And when you
read the sayings of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas,
for through that lens, they do make sense. They begin
to really have a sort of again a decoded message
for us. So let's go back to that saying. Like
a lot of the things that Jesus says, you know
in Matthew, Mark, Puk and John, you know, when he's
(02:26):
talking about a father and a son, or sheep and goats,
or you know, someone planting seed in a field, he's
talking about more than just what's on the surface, right.
Those things stand for other things, right, And we know
this from studying the parables of Jesus. And this is
what's going on here in this in this saying number seven,
(02:47):
the man would stand for the true self and the
lion would stand for the false self, the ego. Right,
and so the man or the true self recognizes the
illusion of and knows that truth is found through realizing
that we're not separate, and we're one with the divine source,
and we're one with all things. The lion, right, is
(03:08):
this metaphor of the ego. It's it's the one that
wants to be in control to devour its enemies and
it and it accepts this notion of us and them
kind of universe.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Right, A lot of parables here, right.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Yes, yes, And so to summarize this saying seven, Jesus
is saying that when our fear driven ego is consumed,
they becomes subdued by the peaceful, free, innocent true self, right,
because the true self can realize its own oneness and
connection with God and with everything. Now, you could say,
keep okay, that's really convenient. Sure, you could just make
(03:44):
that up. But here's the good part. In Plato's Republic,
which was written before Jesus, Plato's Republic, he talks that
he is a metaphor, and he talks about this tension
between the ego and the true self, and he uses
the metaphor of a man and a lion. Now and
he explains exactly what I just told you. Now, what
(04:06):
does Plato have to do with Thomas. Well, here's a
fascinating fact that most people do not know. Along with
all of these texts that were discovered in Nakamati, Egypt,
that were all in one single jar and all put
together in this jar together, all of the texts were
Christian mystical texts, right, gnostic texts, except there was one
fragment really just a couple of pages from Plato's Republic. Now,
(04:31):
guess which fragment of Plato's Republic was bundled with the
Gospel of Thomas, The very same section of Plato's Republic
that explains the metaphor of the Lion and the Man.
It said, if someone pulled off that part of Plato's
Republic that explained saying seven and made sure it was
(04:53):
put in there with the other text, with the Gospel
of Thomas, so that in case we didn't understand it
could crack the code. We could understand what is going
on in these sayings. And when you realize this and
you start going back as I started doing after this
reading the sayings of Jesus from the Gospel Thomas, I
realized this is something really powerful and it's really a
(05:17):
message for us today.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So you changed your mind then about the Gospel of
Thomas in.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
You, oh, totally. Yeah. I went from thinking it was
absolute nonsense to feeling like, no, you know what this is.
I think this is the real deal. I started researching
other scholars like doctor Ling Pagel's and others and started
realizing that there's very reputable scholars that are you know,
(05:42):
teaching at universities at Harvard and Yale who say, yes,
this is a legitimate text. This, these are the sayings
of Jesus. We should take this seriously. And the message
of it is, as I said, it's kind of mind
blowing and it really does align with quantum physics. And
that that's the thing that I think is so fantastic
is to realize that the things that Jesus is talking
(06:03):
about are things that you know, quantum physicists didn't figure
out until again just very recently, and we're still learning
about quantum science.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
How did he know? But if he was the son
of God, he's supposed to know.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
That's right, That's exactly right. Yeah, there's this ancient wisdom,
right that they had. And it's not just Jesus. I mean,
we can actually look and see, you know, if you
go back and look at other religious teachers and mystics
and even philosophers, if you read Buddha or Socrates or Plato,
if you listen to Sufi mystics like a Hollage and
(06:42):
Roomy Black Elk, Native American shaman and many others. What
you'll see is they're all kind of saying this same thing,
this idea that we are all connected. And and I
probably should explain for your listeners. I mean, they probably
do know. But when I say quantum, right, my book
is The Quantum Things of Jesus. When I say quantum,
(07:04):
what am I talking about? Right? It's this idea from
quantum physics. What quantum physicists are discovering is that that
we are all connected. Right. It starts, you know, I
think the birthplace of it was this what's called the
double slit experiment. I won't go into super detail with it,
but essentially scientists are trying to determine the nature of light.
(07:26):
It is light made of a particle or a wave,
and to figure that out, they fired single photons through
it this double slit and captured this interference pattern on
a sensor on the other side of the room. And
here's what they discovered. Mind blowing that the photons behaved
one way if you observe them, in a different way
if you didn't. And that suggested two amazing things. One
(07:49):
that human consciousness changed the behavior of that photon. By
the way, this is repeated whether you use electrons or
photons or many other different things. It still keeps happening.
But it also suggests this the possibility that the photons
themselves were conscious, They were aware of whether they were
(08:10):
being observed or not. And all of this has led
quantum scientists to begin rethinking the nature of reality. So
for the longest time, theologians and philosophers have sort of
had this debate with scientists. Right, scientists are materialists. They
don't believe in the soul, they don't believe in the
mystical things, they don't believe in God, and so they're
(08:31):
very much like, no, it's only atoms, it's only a
material world. We live in a material universe and some mechanism. Right,
and mystics and theologians and philosophers have said, if this
is true, they've challenged the scientists, if this is true,
then how can you explain how human consciousness has arisen
from matter from just atoms and molecules. And for the
(08:53):
longest time there was no answer. This is really where
the debate ended was because there was no answer to
scientists couldn't explain it. But now with quantum science, what
they're realizing. What scientists are realizing is that they have
been asking the wrong question. They've been asking the question
how does consciousness arise from matter? And what they realize
(09:15):
now is that the real question should be how does
matter arise from consciousness? Meaning consciousness is the root of
all reality. They would call it the quantum field, and
they would say the quantum field is everything and everything
is the quantum field. And so even though we perceive
(09:35):
the world around us as everything is separate, everything is different, right,
that's the material universe. That's how what we observe with
our eyes, with our senses. But what we get down
to the quantum level, what realizing is that's not true.
The reality is there's only one thing, and that's the
quantum field, and everything you and me and everything in
(09:56):
the universe is simply an expression of that single quant field.
And where scientists would call this the quantum field, a
mystic might call this consciousness. Theologian might call this christ
I think those are interchangeable terms, because really, when you
look at what everyone's saying, they are all saying the
(10:17):
same thing. They're using different terms, but at the end
of the day, what they're saying is we are all
connected to a divine source, to an ultimate consciousness, and
therefore we are all connected to one another in ways
that we can't even imagine.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
How different is the Gospel of Thomas from Matthew Mark
Lucan John's so.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Great man, thank you for asking me that, Because when
I start to talk about these things, you know, and
I say, wow, Thomas has these amazing teachings from Jesus
that talk about our oneness in our connection with God
and our oneness in our connection with humanity, people will say, well,
that doesn't sound like the Gospel. That sounds like new teaching. No,
it's absolutely not new teach In fact, Jesus says things
(11:02):
like this, and in the Gospels, the Apostle Paul says
things like this. The very first letter that Paul ever
wrote was to the Church in Galicia. And imagine, in fact,
Paul's letters were written before the Gospels. Actually, so the
first Christian writings that ever existed were from the apostle Paul.
And his first letter he ever wrote, he told the
Church in Galicia that in Christ there is no male
(11:24):
or female slave free Jewish gentiles. Why because we are
all one in Christ. In other words, this what you
observe around you as separation, male, female, ge gentile, slave, free,
fill in the blank. That's an illusion. The reality is
we are all one in Christ. Jesus says this all
the time too. Jesus said it in the Gospel of John.
(11:46):
He said, one day you will realize you will realize this,
I am in the Father, and you are in me,
and I am in you. Now, Christian theologians have taken
that saying and said Jesus was just talking about himself.
He's telling us, one day you're going to realize that I,
Jesus am in the Father, and then you are George
or in me, and I am in George. I would submit.
(12:08):
Another way to understand what he's saying in the Gospel
of John is this Jesus is looking at the disciples
and saying, hey, guys, one day you're going to have
this aha moment where you, individually, you are going to
say to yourself, I'm in the Father and you are
in me, and I am in you, meaning other people
are in you and you are in them. This is
that same idea. We have a connection to the divine
(12:31):
and we have a connection to one another. Jesus all
the time, and the ERMU on the Mountain is reminding
the disciples. Whatever you've done to the least, you've done
it to me. How is that possible. It's possible because
we are all connected. There is no separation, right, and
so it's again, it sounds different if I just pull
it out like that. But if you look these things
that Jesus taught, they are also in the gospels. They're
(12:54):
also in the teachings of Paul. It's not an extra
biblical teaching. It's just not something that has emphasized by
you know, the Orthodox Christian Church that we have today.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
What would you say is one of the most significant
profound sayings in the Gospel of Thomas.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Yeah, there's a lot of them. Well, one of the
ones that I think is so powerful. It's probably one
of the key sayings as saying number twenty two, and
it's Jesus says to them and again that's how they
all start. Jesus said, So it's just say twenty two.
Jesus said, when you make the two as one, and
when you make the inside as the outside and the
(13:35):
outside as the inside, and the upper is the lower,
and when you make the male and the female into
a single one, so that the male is not male
and the female is not female, then you shall enter
the kingdom. And again that sounds a lot like what
Paul is saying in Galatians. There's no male or females
labor free, right. All these distinctions are illusions. The reality
(13:58):
is we have to make the inside and the outside,
and the ethic like the outside, and the outside like
the inside, meaning in our minds we need to realize
there is no outside or inside. There is no upper
or lower, there is no male or female because we
are all one. And there's also I mentioned you know
that some of the things that Paul taught echoes some
(14:19):
of these teachings from Thomas. There's actually a saying in
the Gospel of Thomas that Paul quotes in First Corinthians,
chapter two, which is fantastic because that means that if
Paul wrote this letter before any of the other gospels
were written, and yet he's quoting the Gospel of Thomas,
that means he was aware of this saying from Thomas
(14:41):
and maybe even had a copy of the Gospel of
Thomas when he quoted it. Because when he quotes it,
this is what he says. He says just as it
is written now when you quote scripture, that's what you say,
as it is written, and then you quote it, that's
what That's exactly what Paul says vers Scrippans two nine.
He says, as it is written things which I ha
not seen, an era has not heard, and which has
(15:02):
not entered into the human heart, all that God has
prepared for those who love him. That is a quote
from Saying seventeen of the Gospel of Thomas. And again
we didn't know that he was quoting Thomas until we
discovered it in nineteen forty five, translated it in nineteen
fifty nine, and published it in the seventies.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
He's back. In the fifties and sixties, Hollywood did a
lot of movies about the Bible and Jesus and things
like that. And I remember Charlton Heston doing his thing
and stuff. Why aren't they doing that anymore?
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah, great question. Well, I think the big one, right,
the big final one was mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ,
and it did very well. It's not like it was
a flop. But since then, they've been a handful of movies.
I know there was there was a couple of them.
That was one called I think it was the Robe
or something like that. So they've done a few of them,
(15:56):
but here I don't know. I don't know why Hollywood
isn't doing it, but I will say that I think
people are ready for this kind of a message. I
think people are very open to the sayings of Jesus.
I've talked to so many people, even those that are
raised Christian, who are saying, you know what, I'm kind
of I'm not a big fan of the church, but
I still love Jesus, and so they're very fascinated with Jesus.
(16:20):
And so I think that's one of the reasons why
people have really loved my book is because it's it
is Jesus, but it's just the words of Jesus and
the teachings of Jesus, and it's an emphasis on his
teaching us to recognize that we are already connected to
God and that we're connected to one another. And if
there's something there's a responsibility in that right, like this
(16:43):
idea of loving your neighbor as yourself, or even loving
your enemy, well it's much easier to do that when
when you look at your neighbor and you look at
your enemy, you don't see another you see your connection
to the divine.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to George g Nororay along with Keith Giles. Keith,
why did it take so long to get information about
the Gospel of Thomas.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Yeah, well, it's because it was when it was discovered
in nineteen forty five. You know, there was this giant
jar with a whole lot I think it maybe forty
to fifty different texts that were you know, all found together.
They had to be you know, cataloged and translated, and
so it was translated into English. Discovered in nineteen forty five,
(00:35):
it wasn't translated in English until nineteen fifty nine, and
then I don't think they published a popular version that
you could go buy in the store and read until
like the seventies. So, you know, the scholarship for the
Gospel of Thomas is really you know, it's been in
my lifetime, really and when you compare that to the
other Gospels, you know, it's been over two thousand years
(00:57):
worth of scholarship. So it's really brand new for people
to begin to study and read the Gospel of Thomas
or the Gospel of Mary and some of the other
texts that were just have been discovered recently to figure
out what they're about. But I wanted to you had
asked me before the break about you know what it
was that I found so fascinating in the Gospel of Thomas.
(01:20):
So let me just let me give you an example.
This is exactly kind of what happened to me when
I was on the plane reading the book. So in
saying number seven, this is a quote from the Gospel
of Thomas, it says this, Jesus says, bless it is
the lion that becomes a man when consumed by the man,
and curse it is the man whom the lion consumes,
and the man becomes a lion. Now that's one of
(01:42):
those things that the first time I read it, I thought,
this is nonsense, it doesn't make any sense, and I
wanted to throw it against the wall. But when I
saw Duffy's book, what he pointed out was that the
only way to make sense of the Gospel of Thomas,
the sayings of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas, was
to read them through the lens of non duality, to
read them from the lens the idea that we are
(02:04):
all connected right, that there's no separation. And when you
read the sayings of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas,
for through that lens, they do make sense. They begin
to really have a sort of again a decoded message
for us. So let's go back to that saying. Like
a lot of the things that Jesus says, you know
in Matthew, Mark, Puk and John, you know, when he's
(02:26):
talking about a father and a son, or sheep and goats,
or you know, someone planting seed in a field, he's
talking about more than just what's on the surface, right.
Those things stand for other things, right, And we know
this from studying the parables of Jesus. And this is
what's going on here in this in this saying number seven,
(02:47):
the man would stand for the true self and the
lion would stand for the false self, the ego. Right,
and so the man or the true self recognizes the
illusion of and knows that truth is found through realizing
that we're not separate, and we're one with the divine source,
and we're one with all things. The lion, right, is
(03:08):
this metaphor of the ego. It's it's the one that
wants to be in control to devour its enemies and
it and it accepts this notion of us and them
kind of universe.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Right, A lot of parables here, right.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Yes, yes, And so to summarize this saying seven, Jesus
is saying that when our fear driven ego is consumed,
they becomes subdued by the peaceful, free, innocent true self, right,
because the true self can realize its own oneness and
connection with God and with everything. Now, you could say,
keep okay, that's really convenient. Sure, you could just make
(03:44):
that up. But here's the good part. In Plato's Republic,
which was written before Jesus, Plato's Republic, he talks that
he is a metaphor, and he talks about this tension
between the ego and the true self, and he uses
the metaphor of a man and a lion. Now and
he explains exactly what I just told you. Now, what
(04:06):
does Plato have to do with Thomas. Well, here's a
fascinating fact that most people do not know. Along with
all of these texts that were discovered in Nakamati, Egypt,
that were all in one single jar and all put
together in this jar together, all of the texts were
Christian mystical texts, right, gnostic texts, except there was one
fragment really just a couple of pages from Plato's Republic. Now,
(04:31):
guess which fragment of Plato's Republic was bundled with the
Gospel of Thomas, The very same section of Plato's Republic
that explains the metaphor of the Lion and the Man.
It said, if someone pulled off that part of Plato's
Republic that explained saying seven and made sure it was
(04:53):
put in there with the other text, with the Gospel
of Thomas, so that in case we didn't understand it
could crack the code. We could understand what is going
on in these sayings. And when you realize this and
you start going back as I started doing after this
reading the sayings of Jesus from the Gospel Thomas, I
realized this is something really powerful and it's really a
(05:17):
message for us today.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So you changed your mind then about the Gospel of
Thomas in.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
You, oh, totally. Yeah. I went from thinking it was
absolute nonsense to feeling like, no, you know what this is.
I think this is the real deal. I started researching
other scholars like doctor Ling Pagel's and others and started
realizing that there's very reputable scholars that are you know,
(05:42):
teaching at universities at Harvard and Yale who say, yes,
this is a legitimate text. This, these are the sayings
of Jesus. We should take this seriously. And the message
of it is, as I said, it's kind of mind
blowing and it really does align with quantum physics. And
that that's the thing that I think is so fantastic
is to realize that the things that Jesus is talking
(06:03):
about are things that you know, quantum physicists didn't figure
out until again just very recently, and we're still learning
about quantum science.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
How did he know? But if he was the son
of God, he's supposed to know.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
That's right, That's exactly right. Yeah, there's this ancient wisdom,
right that they had. And it's not just Jesus. I mean,
we can actually look and see, you know, if you
go back and look at other religious teachers and mystics
and even philosophers, if you read Buddha or Socrates or Plato,
if you listen to Sufi mystics like a Hollage and
(06:42):
Roomy Black Elk, Native American shaman and many others. What
you'll see is they're all kind of saying this same thing,
this idea that we are all connected. And and I
probably should explain for your listeners. I mean, they probably
do know. But when I say quantum, right, my book
is The Quantum Things of Jesus. When I say quantum,
(07:04):
what am I talking about? Right? It's this idea from
quantum physics. What quantum physicists are discovering is that that
we are all connected. Right. It starts, you know, I
think the birthplace of it was this what's called the
double slit experiment. I won't go into super detail with it,
but essentially scientists are trying to determine the nature of light.
(07:26):
It is light made of a particle or a wave,
and to figure that out, they fired single photons through
it this double slit and captured this interference pattern on
a sensor on the other side of the room. And
here's what they discovered. Mind blowing that the photons behaved
one way if you observe them, in a different way
if you didn't. And that suggested two amazing things. One
(07:49):
that human consciousness changed the behavior of that photon. By
the way, this is repeated whether you use electrons or
photons or many other different things. It still keeps happening.
But it also suggests this the possibility that the photons
themselves were conscious, They were aware of whether they were
(08:10):
being observed or not. And all of this has led
quantum scientists to begin rethinking the nature of reality. So
for the longest time, theologians and philosophers have sort of
had this debate with scientists. Right, scientists are materialists. They
don't believe in the soul, they don't believe in the
mystical things, they don't believe in God, and so they're
(08:31):
very much like, no, it's only atoms, it's only a
material world. We live in a material universe and some mechanism. Right,
and mystics and theologians and philosophers have said, if this
is true, they've challenged the scientists, if this is true,
then how can you explain how human consciousness has arisen
from matter from just atoms and molecules. And for the
(08:53):
longest time there was no answer. This is really where
the debate ended was because there was no answer to
scientists couldn't explain it. But now with quantum science, what
they're realizing. What scientists are realizing is that they have
been asking the wrong question. They've been asking the question
how does consciousness arise from matter? And what they realize
(09:15):
now is that the real question should be how does
matter arise from consciousness? Meaning consciousness is the root of
all reality. They would call it the quantum field, and
they would say the quantum field is everything and everything
is the quantum field. And so even though we perceive
(09:35):
the world around us as everything is separate, everything is different, right,
that's the material universe. That's how what we observe with
our eyes, with our senses. But what we get down
to the quantum level, what realizing is that's not true.
The reality is there's only one thing, and that's the
quantum field, and everything you and me and everything in
(09:56):
the universe is simply an expression of that single quant field.
And where scientists would call this the quantum field, a
mystic might call this consciousness. Theologian might call this christ
I think those are interchangeable terms, because really, when you
look at what everyone's saying, they are all saying the
(10:17):
same thing. They're using different terms, but at the end
of the day, what they're saying is we are all
connected to a divine source, to an ultimate consciousness, and
therefore we are all connected to one another in ways
that we can't even imagine.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
How different is the Gospel of Thomas from Matthew Mark
Lucan John's so.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Great man, thank you for asking me that, Because when
I start to talk about these things, you know, and
I say, wow, Thomas has these amazing teachings from Jesus
that talk about our oneness in our connection with God
and our oneness in our connection with humanity, people will say, well,
that doesn't sound like the Gospel. That sounds like new teaching. No,
it's absolutely not new teach In fact, Jesus says things
(11:02):
like this, and in the Gospels, the Apostle Paul says
things like this. The very first letter that Paul ever
wrote was to the Church in Galicia. And imagine, in fact,
Paul's letters were written before the Gospels. Actually, so the
first Christian writings that ever existed were from the apostle Paul.
And his first letter he ever wrote, he told the
Church in Galicia that in Christ there is no male
(11:24):
or female slave free Jewish gentiles. Why because we are
all one in Christ. In other words, this what you
observe around you as separation, male, female, ge gentile, slave, free,
fill in the blank. That's an illusion. The reality is
we are all one in Christ. Jesus says this all
the time too. Jesus said it in the Gospel of John.
(11:46):
He said, one day you will realize you will realize this,
I am in the Father, and you are in me,
and I am in you. Now, Christian theologians have taken
that saying and said Jesus was just talking about himself.
He's telling us, one day you're going to realize that I,
Jesus am in the Father, and then you are George
or in me, and I am in George. I would submit.
(12:08):
Another way to understand what he's saying in the Gospel
of John is this Jesus is looking at the disciples
and saying, hey, guys, one day you're going to have
this aha moment where you, individually, you are going to
say to yourself, I'm in the Father and you are
in me, and I am in you, meaning other people
are in you and you are in them. This is
that same idea. We have a connection to the divine
(12:31):
and we have a connection to one another. Jesus all
the time, and the ERMU on the Mountain is reminding
the disciples. Whatever you've done to the least, you've done
it to me. How is that possible. It's possible because
we are all connected. There is no separation, right, and
so it's again, it sounds different if I just pull
it out like that. But if you look these things
that Jesus taught, they are also in the gospels. They're
(12:54):
also in the teachings of Paul. It's not an extra
biblical teaching. It's just not something that has emphasized by
you know, the Orthodox Christian Church that we have today.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
What would you say is one of the most significant
profound sayings in the Gospel of Thomas.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Yeah, there's a lot of them. Well, one of the
ones that I think is so powerful. It's probably one
of the key sayings as saying number twenty two, and
it's Jesus says to them and again that's how they
all start. Jesus said, So it's just say twenty two.
Jesus said, when you make the two as one, and
when you make the inside as the outside and the
(13:35):
outside as the inside, and the upper is the lower,
and when you make the male and the female into
a single one, so that the male is not male
and the female is not female, then you shall enter
the kingdom. And again that sounds a lot like what
Paul is saying in Galatians. There's no male or females
labor free, right. All these distinctions are illusions. The reality
(13:58):
is we have to make the inside and the outside,
and the ethic like the outside, and the outside like
the inside, meaning in our minds we need to realize
there is no outside or inside. There is no upper
or lower, there is no male or female because we
are all one. And there's also I mentioned you know
that some of the things that Paul taught echoes some
(14:19):
of these teachings from Thomas. There's actually a saying in
the Gospel of Thomas that Paul quotes in First Corinthians,
chapter two, which is fantastic because that means that if
Paul wrote this letter before any of the other gospels
were written, and yet he's quoting the Gospel of Thomas,
that means he was aware of this saying from Thomas
(14:41):
and maybe even had a copy of the Gospel of
Thomas when he quoted it. Because when he quotes it,
this is what he says. He says just as it
is written now when you quote scripture, that's what you say,
as it is written, and then you quote it, that's
what That's exactly what Paul says vers Scrippans two nine.
He says, as it is written things which I ha
not seen, an era has not heard, and which has
(15:02):
not entered into the human heart, all that God has
prepared for those who love him. That is a quote
from Saying seventeen of the Gospel of Thomas. And again
we didn't know that he was quoting Thomas until we
discovered it in nineteen forty five, translated it in nineteen
fifty nine, and published it in the seventies.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
He's back. In the fifties and sixties, Hollywood did a
lot of movies about the Bible and Jesus and things
like that. And I remember Charlton Heston doing his thing
and stuff. Why aren't they doing that anymore?
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah, great question. Well, I think the big one, right,
the big final one was mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ,
and it did very well. It's not like it was
a flop. But since then, they've been a handful of movies.
I know there was there was a couple of them.
That was one called I think it was the Robe
or something like that. So they've done a few of them,
(15:56):
but here I don't know. I don't know why Hollywood
isn't doing it, but I will say that I think
people are ready for this kind of a message. I
think people are very open to the sayings of Jesus.
I've talked to so many people, even those that are
raised Christian, who are saying, you know what, I'm kind
of I'm not a big fan of the church, but
I still love Jesus, and so they're very fascinated with Jesus.
(16:20):
And so I think that's one of the reasons why
people have really loved my book is because it's it
is Jesus, but it's just the words of Jesus and
the teachings of Jesus, and it's an emphasis on his
teaching us to recognize that we are already connected to
God and that we're connected to one another. And if
there's something there's a responsibility in that right, like this
(16:43):
idea of loving your neighbor as yourself, or even loving
your enemy, well it's much easier to do that when
when you look at your neighbor and you look at
your enemy, you don't see another you see your connection
to the divine.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
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