September 7, 2023 • 23 mins
Relationship expert Shan Boodram has some hard truths about marriage to share with the Newlyweds! She’s the host of The Marriage Pact which reveals that sometimes an ultimatum is needed to push a relationship to the next level.
Shan gives Dean, Caelynn and Jared some much needed advice about the dangers of making assumptions, and the power of giving your partner space.
Plus, when is it time to leave a relationship?? Shan has the telltale signs that you need to look for!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Help We Suck At Being Newlyweds with Dean Hungler, Kaylen
Milerkey and Jared haven.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
An iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Hey, welcome to an old episode of Help We Suck
At Being Newlyweds which might pertain to Dean and Klen
coming up. Of course, you guys will not suck at
being newlyweds, but you'll be newlywed, so you'll.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Be half the podcast title.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
We have a very special guest who is joining us
via zoom right now. She's the host of the podcast
Lovers and Friends. She's also the author of the book
The Game of Desire, and you can see her on
The Marriage Pack, which is a brand new show on
Roku which has been streaming all this month. It is
Shan bood Ram. And yes it reallys.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Shane was satisfying. You're the hardest working girl in Hollywood.
It sounds like I really.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
I don't think so. Maybe like two years ago. Now
I feel like I work a little smarter. I have
two kids, so since the last time that we probably
chatted together, my life has changed a little bit.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
So I do work.
Speaker 5 (00:57):
It's just a lot more wiping up and tidying up
and yelling and cooking and all those other fun stuff.
But I absolutely am overjoyed to be a part of
projects is like the marriage pact, where you get to
just go and do something really amazing. And that was
actually a dream come true experience for me. Not only
did I get to go and like host dating and
(01:18):
relationships show and a show that was really telling a
different stories. I think we're all kind of used to
the same story of like sexy singles went to an
island or sexy singles Arena Little Villa.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Hey, don't shout on that, all right, We've got all
those sexy singles.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
I love it. I do also do too hot to handle,
so I'm very used to being around sexy singles. But
this was real people with real history, and thirty seven
percent of relationships actually begin as platonic friends first, and
so this is a side of romance we've never seen
explored before. So it was so grateful to be a
part of that. And also I got to bring my
entire family with me, So it was just like a
(01:55):
crazy dream come true experience and I'm so happy it's
like out in the world.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Now, will you tell us the format of the show,
So I'm.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
Gonna let you guess. Okay, So the show is called
The Marriage Pack Go.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It's two platonic friends who have a marriage pack and
saying that we're going to get married if we don't
meet it. If we don't meet anybody, and they're at
that age where they're about to get married.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
That's what I would assume as well.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
Yes, everything is right except for the platonic friends bid
because people come into marriage packs for a lot of
different reasons. So we had some people who were exes
where they cheated on each other. So they realized, like,
we were too immature back then, but maybe in ten
years we'll be in a different spot because our chemistry
was there, our connection was there, our friends and family
got along, but we just weren't mature enough to handle
(02:37):
the relationship other people. It was like, really and truly
it was like a prolonged friend zone right where one
person was like, Okay, if I can't find anybody else
in eight years, you're gonna get your chance with me.
And then other people it was they met out at
a bar and it was like, yo, we have this
incredible chemistry. You know, we live at different parts of
the world. If we ever had the chance to come
(02:58):
together and really do this. I think this could work.
So it was like a variety of different scenarios, but
there definitely was some platonic friends in there and one
person who had a crush.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
There was like an.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Older woman and a younger man, and he had a
crush on her since in his teens, so it was
like his chance to show her like I'm a real man.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Are there going to be any twists?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Like in the ultimatum when they break everyone up and
then let them date other people?
Speaker 5 (03:22):
There was no twists. It was actually just genuinely watching
people with real history, like some people knew each other
for twenty years, and so the twist was that this
was real, Like the stakes were actually pretty high for them,
and the entire time they're going through this battle of all, right,
at least we've had a friendship this whole time. Now
we're getting to a place where we're crossing that line
that we can never actually go back, that fear that
(03:43):
you have of trying something with your best friend. It's like, okay,
well if I tried and it fails, what does that
mean for the connection that we used to have and
I used to enjoy. So I don't think you needed
any twists for this because it was just real.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Yeah, what is it like hosting a show like that?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Because you're kind of inserting yourself into their history a
little bit? So do they lean on you and ask
you for advice? Do you have to kind of insert
yourself to help guide them along?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
What is your involvement?
Speaker 5 (04:09):
That's actually a perfect question because it was a little
tougher than too Hot to handle. But the show that
I work on where it's all singles, they all kind
of know what they're there for. Everyone's pretty i'd say malleable.
They're down for the experience and they want to do
what you're saying because they want to stand out on camera.
So if you're throwing them into an experience where it's like, Okay,
get naked and throw your sexual energy onto this canvas
(04:31):
and go, or you guys are going to do Yoni
worshiping and everyone's going to really lean into it because
they're just like, I have nothing to lose. But when
you have people who have a lot to lose, the
resistance was so high. So every experiment that we did,
every test I tried to put them through, there would
just be so much more pushback. And then also because
it's the gang mentality. They have somebody else, they have
(04:52):
an ally there, so you come in and I often
felt like the disruptor, like I was coming into other
people's dynamics and trying to push them out of there
comfort zone, and the two of them would like dig
their heels into the stand together. So it actually was
a bit more challenging, and we spent a lot of
time doing one on ones together because and that was
the helpful thing too, is seeing other couples who are
(05:12):
also at their marriage pack do date go through this
at the same time and see the same struggles that
you were, or to see them push past their insecurities
and fears and it actually work for them. So yeah,
it was definitely a challenge. I'm used to more cooperation
and excitement. When I entered the room, it definitely was like,
oh gosh, here comes this girl. What's she going to
try and do next? Yeah, and what I showed up
(05:34):
on this podcast, the energy was great. This is what
I like, right, like, yes, you're here, let's talk. And
they were like, oh my god, like here she comes again.
And I had to keep reiterating to them the truth,
which was such an interesting fact because I said to
them multiple times, a lot of you are refusing to
try to progress the relationship, or you're not moving to intimacy,
(05:55):
you're not moving to things being more romantic, because in
the back of your mind you're thinking, well, we can
still go back to being just friends. We can still
go back the way things were. I was like, you
have to know that you have to burn the ships
at dock. It's over. Once you're trying to move forward
to this new style of relationship, you'll never be able
to go back. So stop trying to preserve that bond.
And I would say to them, you're either going to
(06:15):
decide to get married or to say goodbye forever. And
they would always roll their eyes when I said that,
or people would like, it's not really us. And I
did the reunion show a couple of weeks ago, and
either they're together or they're not friends. That's been the story.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
So you're ready.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I think that they're better off because I would argue
that they're probably better off because I think that it's
almost nearly impossible to move on from somebody if you
still have a friend in your life that was either
an ex an ex girlfriend or a boyfriend. Or someone
that you've hooked up with, or someone you've been attracted to,
because if you're you're always like clinging on to them
and always have them as your backup. I don't know
(06:50):
if you can really fully commit yourself to moving forward
and trying to develop either relationship with them or relationship
with someone else unless you kind of either cut ties
or start dating.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
I think that that's what these people became each other.
They became safety blankets. Stating is scary. Let's be honest,
it's terrifying to put yourself out there. It's terrifying to
search for the one, knowing in the back of your
mind that you may never find that person. So when
you've got this marriage pact, it's this safety net, Okay,
I have a backup plan, and that can actually stop
you from doing what you need to do in relationships,
which is getting naked, getting raw, getting vulnerable, throwing yourself
(07:23):
all in, getting hurt, getting rejected, trying. And so I
think for a lot of them, for a long time,
the marriage pacts were helpful, maybe, but they were also
sabotaging other connections they could have. And that's what I
was saying to people too, is that keeping hold of
this pseudo relationship and for a long periods of time.
Although it seems harmless, it actually might be stopping you
(07:44):
from one making the connection with that person that you're
actually meant to have, or two connecting with other people
in that all in way that you just described so perfectly.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So coming in as the intimacy expert, was it hard
to navigate from one relationship to the next because it
sounds like some relationships.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
They have been intimate and others they haven't been.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So is it hard to like change the volume now
I guess from one to the other or was it
pretty prestatus quo for all of that?
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Yeah, I think it's a great question because it's the same.
It's the same steps, right Like when you're deepening intimacy
with somebody, it's pretty much the same dance learning if
we have shared values, if we had shared long term goals,
and if we have a similar lifestyle, and so you
have to uncover and then of course above all else,
do we have the brath that it thing, that attraction
(08:45):
the fireworks between us? And so that's the steps that
you're taking people through to uncover, depending on how deep
they were into their other given rules. Like one couple who,
for example, like they were the vacation flame. So they
met at a and they were like, we had this
magical connection. And for them it was interesting because you
know when we've got the fantasy and our have you
(09:06):
guys ever had a fantasy person before?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Fantasy person as.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
In like it's like the person that you place all
of your projections of what a perfect relationship is supposed
to be, but they either got away or you guys
don't live in the same city. It's this individual that
you've never actually had to test it. And so because
you've never had to test it, you just had the
honeymoon phase. You get to continue their relationship on for
(09:30):
years and years in this fantasy sense that never really
stood the test of what actual intimacy has to take.
And so in the back of your mind you kind
of hold on hope that you're perfect person is just
you know, a world's away and only if you were
together everything would be amazing. And that's what this couple had,
where every time they saw each other, it was in
these really fun environments and these really cool settings where
(09:51):
they got to be like the most exaggerated natural fun
versions themselves. But they weren't in real life, So I know,
I don't know. Have you guys ever had someone like that.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Well, the white Whale, Yeah, well, I think it might
have been you that mentioned this on the podcast a
long time ago, or someone else one of the other guests.
But I remember many many years ago, way back when
I was single and I was dating, I would go
on like a couple of dates with someone, and I
would build them up in my head, like I would
fill in the gaps for what I want them to be,
which would make them the perfect person for me. But
(10:22):
then the more you get to know them, the more
they start to fill in their own gaps, and then
you start to realize maybe they're not that person. It
kind of sounds like that's a similar situation.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
Yes, I mean, it's good that you did what you're
supposed to do, which is okay. Maybe you created the
fantasy in your head, but then you saw out reality
to see if it matched up. Some people either one
they sabotage and they stop the relationships they never see
the other side of it, or two that person's not
accessible to them so they get to continue on in
that storyline without ever really putting it to the test.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
So without letting them fill in their own holes.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Yeah, it's kind of cool. I mean I have this
thing I say all the time with people, and that's
even goes for long term relationships. I mean, esctually, I'm
coming up on five years of being married here, and
it is so imperative to leave blank pages for our relationship,
dynamic and for that other person, because the more that
we get to know, the more that we feel like
we can fill in all their blanks. Okay, here's you're
(11:14):
going to do tomorrow, Here's how you're going to feel.
Here's what we're going to do during sex. Here's how
we're going to act a year from now. And they
start to make all these assumptions about someone because we're
very close with them, and then we suffocate them. We
give them no room to be surprising, to be expected
to shock themselves, and if they do something outside of
the script that we've written, we feel traded, we feel offended.
We're like, did I never really know you? Has it
(11:35):
all been alive? It's like, no, I'm changing, I'm dynamic,
and you have to give me space, you know, to
be expecting. We've got to feel and curious to me,
even though we are incredibly intimately close, and so we
do this a lot in our earlier years, and hopefully
we learned is to stop and to be like, Okay, well,
I really can't put a script on human beings. But
(11:57):
I do think that once we get into long term relationships,
we go to that mistake and assume that we know
what they're going to do next because we know what
they've done in the past.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Caitlyn, have you ever had a fantasy person?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Sure, maybe like an X that got away before you.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Well, let's hear about it.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
No, come on, Jason Momoa.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, Jason Momoa for sure, for sure?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Such a cop out answer.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
No, But I think you're the perfect host for a
TV show like this because you see so many dating
shows and essentially you're just listening to a host who
is good at speaking, but you also have this background
and all of this knowledge. So it just makes I
feel like you should be hosting every dating show, is it?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
You?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Just you can like lead everyone and guide everyone, and
not only you know you can look to they can
look to you for advice, and you just have so
much knowledge.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, I agree, it's like there's a con as a
host of one show. Maybe like a former pop star
as the host of another. Yeah, Jesse Palmer a great host,
but like you know, he doesn't know as much about
love as someone like Shan, So yeah, no, they did.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
They did great by picking you.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
As a host, so as you know someone that I
am married as well. So it has marriage and kids
changed your opinion about intimacy being an intimacy expert.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
One thousand percent. Marriage and kids and life and mortgages
and everything. I mean, every it's supposed to change you, right,
It's supposed to deepen your perspective. And that's why I
always remain curious rather than competent, right like that I
know everything and I'm talking to you guys, and I'm learning,
right like, so there's a million different perspectives and ways
(13:51):
to learn about this part of our life that's ever evolving.
I mean, that's why I got into it because I'm
so frustrated that we devote two weeks in school, which
is probably generous for a lot of the schools, to
learning how to do this thing well. And the truth
of the matter is that it's you're never going to
need to stop learning. You're always going to have to
be a student. You're always going to have to grow.
I think that the greatest humbling experience for me was
(14:13):
having a kid, And it was really like nine months
after our first kid that I was like, I am
not an expert in this at all. I am, you know,
I am the I'm just as much of a student
as I am a teacher, and I'm it's actually better
to take that pressure off of myself to know everything
and to have all the answers and instead to be
living in the experience and being guided through information and
(14:36):
guided through instincts that I've been honed through mastery. But
at the end of the day, I'd get humbled by
life all the time. So I think that, yeah, I
think that my my greatest lessons in love are very
different from what the wait, what they were when I
was dating. But I also think those lessons that they
aren't the same rules that apply, right, Like what it
(14:57):
takes to be a great dater and have a great
dating life, it's not the same things to have an
amazing long term relationship. It's not the same thing it
takes to be a great parent. I think as newly
weds it's something that you'll discover too. I will say
the one thing that I love to hear your guys
take on this is people often ask me that question, like,
how did marriage change your relationship? I was like, marriage
(15:18):
just didn't do a damn thing, right, Like, it's the
other stuff, like when you move in together, or when
you have kids, or when you own a business, when
you start sharing a checking account, like those are the
things that fundamentally change your dynamic. Marriage is just a
title that you use to describe a strong connection that
you probably already built a year or two before you
(15:38):
walk down the aisle.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, what are you expecting you to change?
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Well?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I don't really expect much to change for us because
we we did all that stuff so early. We kind
of moved in together a year and we got a
joint self one pland joint bank account, so it just
kind of feels like we're already married. We did we
own a home together. What do you think?
Speaker 4 (15:57):
I agree, I don't think anything's going to change. Yeah,
we already both wear rings. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Yeah, I mean, not much changed between Ashley and I
when we got married, but obviously a lot changed when
we had kids, just because that is such a well
influential part of your life. And and then it just
it also brings out so much stress in you and
so much so much love and so much stress, I guess,
just so much of the human emotion that it really
just it bonds us more together than it ever has,
(16:25):
but have also been probably the hardest parts of our
marriage since we've had kids. I guess my question for you,
Shan also is that so many times in relationships, a
lot of people will break relationships off because they'll say
that the other person has changed, you know, the word
they've changed. You're not the same person that they were
when we got together. And whenever I think about that
(16:46):
or whenever someone talks to me about that, it's like, yeah,
I think people I've changed since I've married Ashley. Ashley
has changed since she's married me, and we've kind of
always just adapted together and grown together. So I guess
my question for you is, how does a couple navigate
that when you know, like for Dean and Kalen, right,
(17:08):
they're about to get married and they know that things
will change at some point. How long that will take,
who knows, how will they change? Nobody really knows, but like,
of course things will change. Dean will change, the person
Kalan will change the person. They'll still be the same
but different. How does a couple relationship navigate that? Moving
together like moving forward together?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
I think it's completely logical to say you've changed in
ways that I didn't anticipate, in ways that don't benefit me.
My favorite basic mathematical equation for a healthy relationship is
fair aid plus equal advancement. And that doesn't applies every
(17:50):
day or every month, right. You know, as somebody who
has kids, the fair trade is really difficult to navigate
when you've got a responsibly to other likes. There's always
going to be someone who feels like I'm doing more
or I'm giving more. But if you net out a year,
let's give it that amount of time and you're like, okay,
within this year, I feel like I gave what I
wanted to give and I received what I truly needed
(18:10):
from this relationship. And as a result of that, I've
grown in ways that feel good for me. I've watched
us grown as a unit, and I've seen my partner grow.
If you get to a place where consistently you're giving
more than you want to give and you're not receiving
what you know you need, and as a result, you
don't see yourself developing and growing in a way that
feels healthy for you, and that's not just a season.
That's when I think it's fair to say, like, okay,
(18:32):
like the changes the math here has definitely adjusted what
you're willing to give and what you required. A relationship
is so different than when we first got into this thing,
and none of us are moving forward through this partnership.
It's cool to let it go. One of the coolest
courses I took was called The New Psychology of Love,
and one of my favorite sections in that was talking
(18:53):
about self expansion theory, which I felt was so profound
because every other mammal, if you watch March of the
Penguins or any you know David Attenborough, Yeah, if you
want any of this stuff, you know, right, love happens everywhere,
and connection and mating, hair bonding, it's it's why we're alive.
(19:13):
It's it's the it's the common universal theme that we
have is that connection to many of our fellow primeates
and animals. But what makes humans distinctly different is we
don't just want to fall in love and couple in
order to reproduce and to ensure our survival and our safety,
we also want to achieve and expand. And we know
this because when we have a dog, and a dog
(19:35):
has all of its basic needs met, and a dog
has access to all of like this, you know, fundamental food, water, shelter.
If it needs to hump it out something, it spends
the arrest of its leisure time laying in the sun.
It spends the rest of its leisure time on to
chase the ball. But humans, when we have all of
our basic needs met and all of our leisure time,
(19:56):
we want to expand and grow and become smarter and
bigger and brighter. And so that means that our relationships
aren't just a place for safety and for reproduction, but
we also see them uniquely as an opportunity for achievement.
And that's not just you know, siloed off to gold diggers.
Everybody wants that out of our bonds. And so if
your relationship stops being an opportunity for achievement, that's when
(20:18):
I think it's okay to say that the best version
of me is not possible with you. I think to
your point, though, people owe it to themselves to wait
a little bit longer. I was reflecting on that when
the whole Kiki Palmer and Darius Jackson. I don't know
to hite your guys's bubble, but her and her partner
just had a baby together, and her partner made a
(20:38):
comment about the outfits that she was wearing postpartum and
if it was appropriate as a mom, and it became
this huge thing and they broke up, and I was like, Okay,
I get it. But at the same time, y'all, that
first year is crazy, Like, don't act like this is
who your partner always is. Like they are sleep deprived,
they are stressed out, they are going through an identity crisis.
Like give it a little bit of time to see
(21:01):
if this change is permanent or just because you guys
are in this insane situation. So I think I'll let
you reflect on what I've just said, because I don't
know where else to go with the other than to
say there's a mix of acknowledging when it's just not
giving what you need and also acknowledging that there's going
to be times when people just can't be their best
(21:23):
self and being able to be there through someone through
that is truly what love is all about.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Like when someone breaks your leg in Switzerland or what else?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, nail on the head right there.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Okay, that was very for someone a little deeper out
of there, but no, that all makes sense. That's definitely
something that I think all of us, not just me
Caitlin and Jared can reflect on them, but the listeners
and anyone that watches your shows or your podcast or
reads your book can definitely reflect on that too. But
thank you so much for joining us. I feel like
every time we get to talk to you, it's enlightening
and you're just in fun. Always fun to talk to you. So, Jerry,
(22:01):
is there anything else you want to end on with
before we say goodbye to Shan?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
No, sham bood ram it always rhymes. I mean, you're
always a great guest. You've been on this podcast before
when we were formally a help I suck at dating.
We were now help we suck be new it. So Shan,
thank you so much. Of course, you guys can check
out her podcast Lovers and Friends wherever you're listening to
this podcast, which quite impressive. I had noticed before we
hopped on. The podcast has five stars and over five
(22:24):
thousand reviews, which is extremely impressive, So definitely check out
that podcast. Of course, you guys can watch the Marriage Pack,
which is streaming on a really key right now.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Marriage Pack, that's the thing I want to yell right now.
It's free. You can go to the Roku channel dot
com and watch it for free. You can get the
Roque map on your phone or on your smart TV.
All you have to sign up for a free account.
You can binge all eight episodes. It's and if you
have a Rocu stick, the wor already done for you.
Just open it up. It's on your homepage. It's phenomenal.
It's an interesting project and it's going to make you
(22:54):
think about the what ifs in your life. So I
loved being a part of it, and I would love
people to check it out.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And it's so relatable because I feel like everybody has
a marriage pack when they're single. Like you talked about
that fantasy person and be like, Okay, if this doesn't
work out for me in life, this is the person
that I plan on marrying if I'm not married by
thirty five forty. It was so ridiculous. I had friends
years ago they were like, oh, if we're not married
by twenty eight, well we have a marriage pack. I'm
(23:22):
like twenty eight.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah that's so young.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
You're so stupid, but anyway, I digress. Shampood Ram, Michigan. Yeah,
thank you so much for joining the podcast. You're the best,
and definitely check out Marriage Pack streaming right now on Roku.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Thanks Shan, thank you, thanks for listening. Follow us on
Instagram at help we Suck at being.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Newlyweds and email us at Newlyweds at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Make sure to write us a review and leave us
five stars. We'll see you next time.
Help We Suck At Being Newlyweds with Dean Hungler, Kaylen
Milerkey and Jared haven.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
An iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Hey, welcome to an old episode of Help We Suck
At Being Newlyweds which might pertain to Dean and Klen
coming up. Of course, you guys will not suck at
being newlyweds, but you'll be newlywed, so you'll.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
Be half the podcast title.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
We have a very special guest who is joining us
via zoom right now. She's the host of the podcast
Lovers and Friends. She's also the author of the book
The Game of Desire, and you can see her on
The Marriage Pack, which is a brand new show on
Roku which has been streaming all this month. It is
Shan bood Ram. And yes it reallys.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Shane was satisfying. You're the hardest working girl in Hollywood.
It sounds like I really.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
I don't think so. Maybe like two years ago. Now
I feel like I work a little smarter. I have
two kids, so since the last time that we probably
chatted together, my life has changed a little bit.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
So I do work.
Speaker 5 (00:57):
It's just a lot more wiping up and tidying up
and yelling and cooking and all those other fun stuff.
But I absolutely am overjoyed to be a part of
projects is like the marriage pact, where you get to
just go and do something really amazing. And that was
actually a dream come true experience for me. Not only
did I get to go and like host dating and
(01:18):
relationships show and a show that was really telling a
different stories. I think we're all kind of used to
the same story of like sexy singles went to an
island or sexy singles Arena Little Villa.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Hey, don't shout on that, all right, We've got all
those sexy singles.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
I love it. I do also do too hot to handle,
so I'm very used to being around sexy singles. But
this was real people with real history, and thirty seven
percent of relationships actually begin as platonic friends first, and
so this is a side of romance we've never seen
explored before. So it was so grateful to be a
part of that. And also I got to bring my
entire family with me, So it was just like a
(01:55):
crazy dream come true experience and I'm so happy it's
like out in the world.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Now, will you tell us the format of the show,
So I'm.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
Gonna let you guess. Okay, So the show is called
The Marriage Pack Go.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It's two platonic friends who have a marriage pack and
saying that we're going to get married if we don't
meet it. If we don't meet anybody, and they're at
that age where they're about to get married.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
That's what I would assume as well.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
Yes, everything is right except for the platonic friends bid
because people come into marriage packs for a lot of
different reasons. So we had some people who were exes
where they cheated on each other. So they realized, like,
we were too immature back then, but maybe in ten
years we'll be in a different spot because our chemistry
was there, our connection was there, our friends and family
got along, but we just weren't mature enough to handle
(02:37):
the relationship other people. It was like, really and truly
it was like a prolonged friend zone right where one
person was like, Okay, if I can't find anybody else
in eight years, you're gonna get your chance with me.
And then other people it was they met out at
a bar and it was like, yo, we have this
incredible chemistry. You know, we live at different parts of
the world. If we ever had the chance to come
(02:58):
together and really do this. I think this could work.
So it was like a variety of different scenarios, but
there definitely was some platonic friends in there and one
person who had a crush.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
There was like an.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Older woman and a younger man, and he had a
crush on her since in his teens, so it was
like his chance to show her like I'm a real man.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Are there going to be any twists?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Like in the ultimatum when they break everyone up and
then let them date other people?
Speaker 5 (03:22):
There was no twists. It was actually just genuinely watching
people with real history, like some people knew each other
for twenty years, and so the twist was that this
was real, Like the stakes were actually pretty high for them,
and the entire time they're going through this battle of all, right,
at least we've had a friendship this whole time. Now
we're getting to a place where we're crossing that line
that we can never actually go back, that fear that
(03:43):
you have of trying something with your best friend. It's like, okay,
well if I tried and it fails, what does that
mean for the connection that we used to have and
I used to enjoy. So I don't think you needed
any twists for this because it was just real.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Yeah, what is it like hosting a show like that?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Because you're kind of inserting yourself into their history a
little bit? So do they lean on you and ask
you for advice? Do you have to kind of insert
yourself to help guide them along?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
What is your involvement?
Speaker 5 (04:09):
That's actually a perfect question because it was a little
tougher than too Hot to handle. But the show that
I work on where it's all singles, they all kind
of know what they're there for. Everyone's pretty i'd say malleable.
They're down for the experience and they want to do
what you're saying because they want to stand out on camera.
So if you're throwing them into an experience where it's like, Okay,
get naked and throw your sexual energy onto this canvas
(04:31):
and go, or you guys are going to do Yoni
worshiping and everyone's going to really lean into it because
they're just like, I have nothing to lose. But when
you have people who have a lot to lose, the
resistance was so high. So every experiment that we did,
every test I tried to put them through, there would
just be so much more pushback. And then also because
it's the gang mentality. They have somebody else, they have
(04:52):
an ally there, so you come in and I often
felt like the disruptor, like I was coming into other
people's dynamics and trying to push them out of there
comfort zone, and the two of them would like dig
their heels into the stand together. So it actually was
a bit more challenging, and we spent a lot of
time doing one on ones together because and that was
the helpful thing too, is seeing other couples who are
(05:12):
also at their marriage pack do date go through this
at the same time and see the same struggles that
you were, or to see them push past their insecurities
and fears and it actually work for them. So yeah,
it was definitely a challenge. I'm used to more cooperation
and excitement. When I entered the room, it definitely was like,
oh gosh, here comes this girl. What's she going to
try and do next? Yeah, and what I showed up
(05:34):
on this podcast, the energy was great. This is what
I like, right, like, yes, you're here, let's talk. And
they were like, oh my god, like here she comes again.
And I had to keep reiterating to them the truth,
which was such an interesting fact because I said to
them multiple times, a lot of you are refusing to
try to progress the relationship, or you're not moving to intimacy,
(05:55):
you're not moving to things being more romantic, because in
the back of your mind you're thinking, well, we can
still go back to being just friends. We can still
go back the way things were. I was like, you
have to know that you have to burn the ships
at dock. It's over. Once you're trying to move forward
to this new style of relationship, you'll never be able
to go back. So stop trying to preserve that bond.
And I would say to them, you're either going to
(06:15):
decide to get married or to say goodbye forever. And
they would always roll their eyes when I said that,
or people would like, it's not really us. And I
did the reunion show a couple of weeks ago, and
either they're together or they're not friends. That's been the story.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
So you're ready.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
I think that they're better off because I would argue
that they're probably better off because I think that it's
almost nearly impossible to move on from somebody if you
still have a friend in your life that was either
an ex an ex girlfriend or a boyfriend. Or someone
that you've hooked up with, or someone you've been attracted to,
because if you're you're always like clinging on to them
and always have them as your backup. I don't know
(06:50):
if you can really fully commit yourself to moving forward
and trying to develop either relationship with them or relationship
with someone else unless you kind of either cut ties
or start dating.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
I think that that's what these people became each other.
They became safety blankets. Stating is scary. Let's be honest,
it's terrifying to put yourself out there. It's terrifying to
search for the one, knowing in the back of your
mind that you may never find that person. So when
you've got this marriage pact, it's this safety net, Okay,
I have a backup plan, and that can actually stop
you from doing what you need to do in relationships,
which is getting naked, getting raw, getting vulnerable, throwing yourself
(07:23):
all in, getting hurt, getting rejected, trying. And so I
think for a lot of them, for a long time,
the marriage pacts were helpful, maybe, but they were also
sabotaging other connections they could have. And that's what I
was saying to people too, is that keeping hold of
this pseudo relationship and for a long periods of time.
Although it seems harmless, it actually might be stopping you
(07:44):
from one making the connection with that person that you're
actually meant to have, or two connecting with other people
in that all in way that you just described so perfectly.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So coming in as the intimacy expert, was it hard
to navigate from one relationship to the next because it
sounds like some relationships.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
They have been intimate and others they haven't been.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So is it hard to like change the volume now
I guess from one to the other or was it
pretty prestatus quo for all of that?
Speaker 5 (08:23):
Yeah, I think it's a great question because it's the same.
It's the same steps, right Like when you're deepening intimacy
with somebody, it's pretty much the same dance learning if
we have shared values, if we had shared long term goals,
and if we have a similar lifestyle, and so you
have to uncover and then of course above all else,
do we have the brath that it thing, that attraction
(08:45):
the fireworks between us? And so that's the steps that
you're taking people through to uncover, depending on how deep
they were into their other given rules. Like one couple who,
for example, like they were the vacation flame. So they
met at a and they were like, we had this
magical connection. And for them it was interesting because you
know when we've got the fantasy and our have you
(09:06):
guys ever had a fantasy person before?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Fantasy person as.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
In like it's like the person that you place all
of your projections of what a perfect relationship is supposed
to be, but they either got away or you guys
don't live in the same city. It's this individual that
you've never actually had to test it. And so because
you've never had to test it, you just had the
honeymoon phase. You get to continue their relationship on for
(09:30):
years and years in this fantasy sense that never really
stood the test of what actual intimacy has to take.
And so in the back of your mind you kind
of hold on hope that you're perfect person is just
you know, a world's away and only if you were
together everything would be amazing. And that's what this couple had,
where every time they saw each other, it was in
these really fun environments and these really cool settings where
(09:51):
they got to be like the most exaggerated natural fun
versions themselves. But they weren't in real life, So I know,
I don't know. Have you guys ever had someone like that.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Well, the white Whale, Yeah, well, I think it might
have been you that mentioned this on the podcast a
long time ago, or someone else one of the other guests.
But I remember many many years ago, way back when
I was single and I was dating, I would go
on like a couple of dates with someone, and I
would build them up in my head, like I would
fill in the gaps for what I want them to be,
which would make them the perfect person for me. But
(10:22):
then the more you get to know them, the more
they start to fill in their own gaps, and then
you start to realize maybe they're not that person. It
kind of sounds like that's a similar situation.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
Yes, I mean, it's good that you did what you're
supposed to do, which is okay. Maybe you created the
fantasy in your head, but then you saw out reality
to see if it matched up. Some people either one
they sabotage and they stop the relationships they never see
the other side of it, or two that person's not
accessible to them so they get to continue on in
that storyline without ever really putting it to the test.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
So without letting them fill in their own holes.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Yeah, it's kind of cool. I mean I have this
thing I say all the time with people, and that's
even goes for long term relationships. I mean, esctually, I'm
coming up on five years of being married here, and
it is so imperative to leave blank pages for our relationship,
dynamic and for that other person, because the more that
we get to know, the more that we feel like
we can fill in all their blanks. Okay, here's you're
(11:14):
going to do tomorrow, Here's how you're going to feel.
Here's what we're going to do during sex. Here's how
we're going to act a year from now. And they
start to make all these assumptions about someone because we're
very close with them, and then we suffocate them. We
give them no room to be surprising, to be expected
to shock themselves, and if they do something outside of
the script that we've written, we feel traded, we feel offended.
We're like, did I never really know you? Has it
(11:35):
all been alive? It's like, no, I'm changing, I'm dynamic,
and you have to give me space, you know, to
be expecting. We've got to feel and curious to me,
even though we are incredibly intimately close, and so we
do this a lot in our earlier years, and hopefully
we learned is to stop and to be like, Okay, well,
I really can't put a script on human beings. But
(11:57):
I do think that once we get into long term relationships,
we go to that mistake and assume that we know
what they're going to do next because we know what
they've done in the past.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Caitlyn, have you ever had a fantasy person?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Sure, maybe like an X that got away before you.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Well, let's hear about it.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
No, come on, Jason Momoa.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, Jason Momoa for sure, for sure?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Such a cop out answer.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
No, But I think you're the perfect host for a
TV show like this because you see so many dating
shows and essentially you're just listening to a host who
is good at speaking, but you also have this background
and all of this knowledge. So it just makes I
feel like you should be hosting every dating show, is it?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
You?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Just you can like lead everyone and guide everyone, and
not only you know you can look to they can
look to you for advice, and you just have so
much knowledge.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, I agree, it's like there's a con as a
host of one show. Maybe like a former pop star
as the host of another. Yeah, Jesse Palmer a great host,
but like you know, he doesn't know as much about
love as someone like Shan, So yeah, no, they did.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
They did great by picking you.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
As a host, so as you know someone that I
am married as well. So it has marriage and kids
changed your opinion about intimacy being an intimacy expert.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
One thousand percent. Marriage and kids and life and mortgages
and everything. I mean, every it's supposed to change you, right,
It's supposed to deepen your perspective. And that's why I
always remain curious rather than competent, right like that I
know everything and I'm talking to you guys, and I'm learning,
right like, so there's a million different perspectives and ways
(13:51):
to learn about this part of our life that's ever evolving.
I mean, that's why I got into it because I'm
so frustrated that we devote two weeks in school, which
is probably generous for a lot of the schools, to
learning how to do this thing well. And the truth
of the matter is that it's you're never going to
need to stop learning. You're always going to have to
be a student. You're always going to have to grow.
I think that the greatest humbling experience for me was
(14:13):
having a kid, And it was really like nine months
after our first kid that I was like, I am
not an expert in this at all. I am, you know,
I am the I'm just as much of a student
as I am a teacher, and I'm it's actually better
to take that pressure off of myself to know everything
and to have all the answers and instead to be
living in the experience and being guided through information and
(14:36):
guided through instincts that I've been honed through mastery. But
at the end of the day, I'd get humbled by
life all the time. So I think that, yeah, I
think that my my greatest lessons in love are very
different from what the wait, what they were when I
was dating. But I also think those lessons that they
aren't the same rules that apply, right, Like what it
(14:57):
takes to be a great dater and have a great
dating life, it's not the same things to have an
amazing long term relationship. It's not the same thing it
takes to be a great parent. I think as newly
weds it's something that you'll discover too. I will say
the one thing that I love to hear your guys
take on this is people often ask me that question, like,
how did marriage change your relationship? I was like, marriage
(15:18):
just didn't do a damn thing, right, Like, it's the
other stuff, like when you move in together, or when
you have kids, or when you own a business, when
you start sharing a checking account, like those are the
things that fundamentally change your dynamic. Marriage is just a
title that you use to describe a strong connection that
you probably already built a year or two before you
(15:38):
walk down the aisle.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, what are you expecting you to change?
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Well?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I don't really expect much to change for us because
we we did all that stuff so early. We kind
of moved in together a year and we got a
joint self one pland joint bank account, so it just
kind of feels like we're already married. We did we
own a home together. What do you think?
Speaker 4 (15:57):
I agree, I don't think anything's going to change. Yeah,
we already both wear rings. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Yeah, I mean, not much changed between Ashley and I
when we got married, but obviously a lot changed when
we had kids, just because that is such a well
influential part of your life. And and then it just
it also brings out so much stress in you and
so much so much love and so much stress, I guess,
just so much of the human emotion that it really
just it bonds us more together than it ever has,
(16:25):
but have also been probably the hardest parts of our
marriage since we've had kids. I guess my question for you,
Shan also is that so many times in relationships, a
lot of people will break relationships off because they'll say
that the other person has changed, you know, the word
they've changed. You're not the same person that they were
when we got together. And whenever I think about that
(16:46):
or whenever someone talks to me about that, it's like, yeah,
I think people I've changed since I've married Ashley. Ashley
has changed since she's married me, and we've kind of
always just adapted together and grown together. So I guess
my question for you is, how does a couple navigate
that when you know, like for Dean and Kalen, right,
(17:08):
they're about to get married and they know that things
will change at some point. How long that will take,
who knows, how will they change? Nobody really knows, but like,
of course things will change. Dean will change, the person
Kalan will change the person. They'll still be the same
but different. How does a couple relationship navigate that? Moving
together like moving forward together?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
I think it's completely logical to say you've changed in
ways that I didn't anticipate, in ways that don't benefit me.
My favorite basic mathematical equation for a healthy relationship is
fair aid plus equal advancement. And that doesn't applies every
(17:50):
day or every month, right. You know, as somebody who
has kids, the fair trade is really difficult to navigate
when you've got a responsibly to other likes. There's always
going to be someone who feels like I'm doing more
or I'm giving more. But if you net out a year,
let's give it that amount of time and you're like, okay,
within this year, I feel like I gave what I
wanted to give and I received what I truly needed
(18:10):
from this relationship. And as a result of that, I've
grown in ways that feel good for me. I've watched
us grown as a unit, and I've seen my partner grow.
If you get to a place where consistently you're giving
more than you want to give and you're not receiving
what you know you need, and as a result, you
don't see yourself developing and growing in a way that
feels healthy for you, and that's not just a season.
That's when I think it's fair to say, like, okay,
(18:32):
like the changes the math here has definitely adjusted what
you're willing to give and what you required. A relationship
is so different than when we first got into this thing,
and none of us are moving forward through this partnership.
It's cool to let it go. One of the coolest
courses I took was called The New Psychology of Love,
and one of my favorite sections in that was talking
(18:53):
about self expansion theory, which I felt was so profound
because every other mammal, if you watch March of the
Penguins or any you know David Attenborough, Yeah, if you
want any of this stuff, you know, right, love happens everywhere,
and connection and mating, hair bonding, it's it's why we're alive.
(19:13):
It's it's the it's the common universal theme that we
have is that connection to many of our fellow primeates
and animals. But what makes humans distinctly different is we
don't just want to fall in love and couple in
order to reproduce and to ensure our survival and our safety,
we also want to achieve and expand. And we know
this because when we have a dog, and a dog
(19:35):
has all of its basic needs met, and a dog
has access to all of like this, you know, fundamental food, water, shelter.
If it needs to hump it out something, it spends
the arrest of its leisure time laying in the sun.
It spends the rest of its leisure time on to
chase the ball. But humans, when we have all of
our basic needs met and all of our leisure time,
(19:56):
we want to expand and grow and become smarter and
bigger and brighter. And so that means that our relationships
aren't just a place for safety and for reproduction, but
we also see them uniquely as an opportunity for achievement.
And that's not just you know, siloed off to gold diggers.
Everybody wants that out of our bonds. And so if
your relationship stops being an opportunity for achievement, that's when
(20:18):
I think it's okay to say that the best version
of me is not possible with you. I think to
your point, though, people owe it to themselves to wait
a little bit longer. I was reflecting on that when
the whole Kiki Palmer and Darius Jackson. I don't know
to hite your guys's bubble, but her and her partner
just had a baby together, and her partner made a
(20:38):
comment about the outfits that she was wearing postpartum and
if it was appropriate as a mom, and it became
this huge thing and they broke up, and I was like, Okay,
I get it. But at the same time, y'all, that
first year is crazy, Like, don't act like this is
who your partner always is. Like they are sleep deprived,
they are stressed out, they are going through an identity crisis.
Like give it a little bit of time to see
(21:01):
if this change is permanent or just because you guys
are in this insane situation. So I think I'll let
you reflect on what I've just said, because I don't
know where else to go with the other than to
say there's a mix of acknowledging when it's just not
giving what you need and also acknowledging that there's going
to be times when people just can't be their best
(21:23):
self and being able to be there through someone through
that is truly what love is all about.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Like when someone breaks your leg in Switzerland or what else?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, nail on the head right there.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Okay, that was very for someone a little deeper out
of there, but no, that all makes sense. That's definitely
something that I think all of us, not just me
Caitlin and Jared can reflect on them, but the listeners
and anyone that watches your shows or your podcast or
reads your book can definitely reflect on that too. But
thank you so much for joining us. I feel like
every time we get to talk to you, it's enlightening
and you're just in fun. Always fun to talk to you. So, Jerry,
(22:01):
is there anything else you want to end on with
before we say goodbye to Shan?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
No, sham bood ram it always rhymes. I mean, you're
always a great guest. You've been on this podcast before
when we were formally a help I suck at dating.
We were now help we suck be new it. So Shan,
thank you so much. Of course, you guys can check
out her podcast Lovers and Friends wherever you're listening to
this podcast, which quite impressive. I had noticed before we
hopped on. The podcast has five stars and over five
(22:24):
thousand reviews, which is extremely impressive, So definitely check out
that podcast. Of course, you guys can watch the Marriage Pack,
which is streaming on a really key right now.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Marriage Pack, that's the thing I want to yell right now.
It's free. You can go to the Roku channel dot
com and watch it for free. You can get the
Roque map on your phone or on your smart TV.
All you have to sign up for a free account.
You can binge all eight episodes. It's and if you
have a Rocu stick, the wor already done for you.
Just open it up. It's on your homepage. It's phenomenal.
It's an interesting project and it's going to make you
(22:54):
think about the what ifs in your life. So I
loved being a part of it, and I would love
people to check it out.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And it's so relatable because I feel like everybody has
a marriage pack when they're single. Like you talked about
that fantasy person and be like, Okay, if this doesn't
work out for me in life, this is the person
that I plan on marrying if I'm not married by
thirty five forty. It was so ridiculous. I had friends
years ago they were like, oh, if we're not married
by twenty eight, well we have a marriage pack. I'm
(23:22):
like twenty eight.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah that's so young.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
You're so stupid, but anyway, I digress. Shampood Ram, Michigan. Yeah,
thank you so much for joining the podcast. You're the best,
and definitely check out Marriage Pack streaming right now on Roku.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Thanks Shan, thank you, thanks for listening. Follow us on
Instagram at help we Suck at being.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Newlyweds and email us at Newlyweds at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Make sure to write us a review and leave us
five stars. We'll see you next time.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.