Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey, it's me Jenny Garth, one of your hosts here
at I Do Part two. We were talking with doctor
Hillary and there was just so much more that I
need to ask her, So let's jump back into that conversation.
The hardest part for me was the kids of it
all and just that enormous guilt that I was ruining
(00:36):
their lives forever. And it was really really hard for me.
And I can remember the only thing, the only tool
that I heard from somebody along the way was I
would say to them in those moments when they were
showing me how hurt and upset they were, I wish
I had a magic wand and I could wave it
(00:58):
and everything would be okay. But I don't.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
But I love that you said this them, So you
did have tools that That's a version of what I'm
really saying here. And this is the hard thing as
a parent that is part of the decision to divorce,
or at least had to agree to the divorce is
saying to our kids some version of I can't fix it.
(01:23):
It's the last thing we want to say to our kids.
But the best thing to say to our kids their
reality is that it's not okay, and They don't want
to hear all the ways that it's okay. They want
to hear that you get it, that it hurts, and
that it doesn't feel better yet. Will it feel better? Yes, absolutely,
it will feel better. It will feel better tomorrow in
(01:43):
a certain way, in a year, in a certain way,
in ten years, in a certain way. It will feel
better along the trajectory, along the journey. We all know
adults who are children of divorce and they're okay, they
find their way right. But Parado kids have divorced find
their way much more easily if their trauma and their
(02:05):
ongoing pain is honored and acknowledged and validated and discussed
and not tried to make okay right, because that's their reality.
It's never going to be okay for a kid that
their mom and dad are together. I mean, there are
may be exceptions where something crazy toxic was going on, obviously,
but in general, yeah, I love that you put that
to them. So you you offer them something critical, which
(02:28):
is I see you, I know, and I can't fix it,
and I'm right here with you until it feels just
a little bit better. You know.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
What do you think about bringing the new significant other
to a holiday gathering to meet your family for the
first time. Is that appropriate or is that too much
for the new person to handle, too much for the
kids the family to handle.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah. So, if you come to know me in general,
I'm a clinician that likes to hold both sides and
talk about both sides. I am not going to do
that here. That is a hard no.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Oh my god, I failed. I met my new significant
other in the beginning of December and he was at
our house for Christmas. Oh man, Well.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Look, having said that, are there stories where in theory
and in concept where I would say no and they
work out beautifully? Absolutely? I mean I have clients who
meet someone to introduce them to their kids, like the
next week, have them move in two weeks later, and
(03:45):
and how the beautiful mats became loving. So but let
me tell you why I'm saying now, and that is
the introduction. It's really about the kids. If there's no
kids involved, yeah, I mean, if there's no kids involve,
whatever feels right to the adults involved, I think it's
just fine. I may have like an opinion one way
(04:05):
or the other, but I think it's just fine when
there's kids involved, because it bumps up against what I
was just talking about, which is like something much deeper
in our minds. Were like whatever, it's like two hours
over like a turkey and a couple of like eggnogs.
It's all good. Other cousins will be there, It'll be
like so fun, right. But because it bumps up against
(04:26):
this like deeper, this isn't my dad, my mom is
moving on it, it sort of kicks up that, like,
my mom and dad aren't together. Having your kids meet
your significant other in a very small dose, in a
super chill environment is what I recommend as a first set.
(04:48):
So like it's in neutral territory, you know, over a
coffee or a quick ice cream, depending out of age,
and it's like an hour and it's like the discussion
beforehand is version of what I was just talking about. Like,
so you've known about Joe for a long time, but
this is different. I'm telling you he's so important to
(05:09):
me that I want you, who was the most important
person to be in the world, to meet him, and
that that's a big message. Well bring up a lot
of feelings, you know, really, and it's adjusted for the
kids sixteen versus six, But you get what I'm saying.
So wow, that's a that's a that's that's a that's
a moment. You know, how do you feel about it?
(05:31):
Here's my idea. We're going to meet Joe at the
yogurt shop tomorrow after school for an hour. We're just
gonna have an ice cream and you'll get to stay
hi and you can show him your favorite doll and
then like that's it. Then maybe we'll see him again
another time after right, And so that it's it's it's
really low pressure. It has a finite aspect to it
(05:54):
and feels kid centered, which I think matters that. It's like,
I mean, you're not going to say what I'm going
to say right now, but some version of like your
comfort matters to me, your feeling state matters to me.
So this is slow, this is intentional, This is no pressure,
and the meeting itself is really more about Joe meeting
(06:18):
the kids versus the kids just witnessing Mom with Joe
in their new relationship. It's a way to like bring
them in as a part of it as opposed to
just like a witness of it.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, because they are a part of it.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Absolutely, That's that's the intention. And so slow rolling it
in the way that I was just describing, I think
sets up the entire system for the most success, but
particularly that relationship between the kids and Joe, because it
doesn't feel like too much at once and like a here,
(06:56):
he's here, and accept him. Right. It's it's the initial
meeting is not about the kid witnessing your connection with Joe,
or rather about Joe and the kids just get to
know each other, to know each other, and then the
next time it's two hours you go bowling, and then
the next time it's a movie and dinner, and then
(07:17):
from there you're starting to expand. Again, this is super prescriptive.
It can work in an absence of all of this,
but from a clinical standpoint, now that we have the
information we've been talking about, I imagine what I'm saying
makes sense and that ideally, and if you're looking for
like a little bit of a map, that's the one
I would pick.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
That's a good map. Oh I was flying mapless. Okay,
what do you think about people who have a checklist
of must haves in a partner? I know I in
my work. After my divorce, I had to sit down
and think about what was important to me looking forward
into another relationship, and my therapist at that time called
(08:00):
at my non negotiables, where that there were certain things
that were very very important to me to build that relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
On exactly the phrase I was going to introduce as well,
non negotiables and just to think more about it for
the folks listening, these are things that like they're just
deal breakers that have now decided post divorce with great
intention and analysis, you cannot live without, you cannot endure.
(08:30):
And I mean those might be things anything from he
lives a certain number of miles away, to he does
have kids he doesn't have kids, to he cares about communication,
to his adventures, lifestyle, whatever the things are, and that
is personal and concrete. So concretize those non negotiables, those
(08:53):
deal breakers for yourself. And it sounds like you did
in a way that is externalized. Don't let it be
vague and more like, really decide what are those things
and if you sit down with your piece of paper
or you're fried or your therapist, I don't know. Oh,
I think it's one thing yesterday and one thing tomorrow.
That's okay. I'm not surprised you just got out of divorce.
(09:14):
It's static and you're trying to find your feet on
the ground. So don't despair if you don't know or
it keeps changing, but don't give up on it. Right,
It's a process. And like we were talking about at
the beginning, if you think your non negotiables are you know,
these top three things, and then you meet someone and
he has kids and you were sure you didn't want
to be with someone who has kids. But like all
(09:36):
the other things are so important, let it be fluid.
Don't make it all encompassing and all powerful in a
way that disallows you to be uh, a version of
like contrived spontanet at spontaneous. Right, all those things to
shift because you will be growing and shifting post divorce.
(09:59):
So start the process, but allow it to flow and
shift and change, and don't shame or criticize yourself if
it does, in fact, expect it to.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yes, should you tell the person about your non negotiables
or should you keep them to yourself?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean I might not
just like present it.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
It's like a list. Here, read this and then just
sign at the bottom that you actually read it.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, let me just text you this bullet contract. So
if you are sure that you want to be with
someone who is open to having children. That seems like
a non negotiable that is worthy of sharing. You know,
(10:50):
I'm not sure you want to use that as like
your date opener. But again, I would embody that truth
even in that first meeting, certainly by the second meeting,
and it's and I would love for people to When
I use the word embody, it's very deliberate. I don't
want anyone shrinking and like, well, I just kind of
want to be with some of them as kids. I
want you to sit in your truth and try it on,
(11:14):
even if it changes six months from now. I just
know in this season of my life, I'm really clear
I want to be with someone who wants to kids
as much as I do. It's just it's just something
I'm so clear on, which feels kind of great. Right.
There's no apology, there's no further explanation. This is my truth,
and if the person can't promise or is turned off
(11:37):
by that, we can thank them for giving us this
feedback quickly so we don't have to carry on any longer.
And that might be complex and disappointing and feel rejecting
in all those things. But if our goal is to
be embodied right, is to figure out what resonates for
us and live a life that finally feels like it's
(11:57):
uplifting and safe and grounded, we must put these things
out there in this embodied way. This is my truth
and I'm not going to apologize for it, and I
would attach that same mindset to really any non negotiable that, like,
don't apologize for it. You know, I want to be
with someone that wants to travel three times a year
(12:18):
I do. Might seem simple, might seem small, might seem nuanced,
but that's my truth for now. How do you feel
about travel right that you're just embodying who you are
at this season and trying on how it feels to
show up that way.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I had something so it felt so insignificant, but to
me it felt it was important. I didn't want to
be with a smoker.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I didn't want to be with somebody who smoked and
then for the rest of our lives was sick from it.
Always had that smell like it was really important to
me and I and when I met Dave, he smoked,
and so I immediately thought, oh, well, he's not the
one for me because he smokes silly as that is.
(13:16):
And I remember asking, is quitting smoking something that you
might ever be interested or open to? Do you want
to smoke forever? What what is it with you and smoking?
Like I had to instead of just shutting it off
for myself, I had to do what you said, get
curious and embody what I wanted, but at the same
(13:40):
time be curious about what he wanted so that I
could get that solid information.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Right, I know that's exactly what I'm talking about. You
have to show up for yourself and it's not easy.
That kind of self advocacy.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Is very scary.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, scary, and that feeling I want your listeners to
understand is ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with you if that
feels scary, It is scary to stand in your own
truth and declare them with risk. Right, he could have
turned around and said, I'm going to keep doing this.
If that's a deal breaker for you, then I guess
this is where we part ways and that might have
(14:16):
been devastating, right, But to pursue something that is like
deeply resonating to our soul, which I think is the
pursuit post divorce. Right, If we're going to get divorced
and we're going to go through that trauma. We better
be pursuing something that is like soul worthy, right, you
better be. We're going to go through all of that,
And so having a conversation like that's, yes, scary, nothing
(14:39):
wrong with you. If it's anxiety provoking, all you got
to do is eke it out I do. You don't
have to feel confident about it, you don't have to
not feel scared about it. You just got to get
the words out right, conceice it until it starts to
feel a little less scary. But I just love that
word embodied. It's like just reflecting your truth and allowing
(15:01):
for that to shift and change and be influenced by
safe others in our own you know, sort of growth.
But that's the exact example, a version of the example
I had in mind.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
A dating coach said that you should only go on
a date with someone once a week when you're getting
to know them. Do you think that's a good rule.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
In spite of what I've just said about I've said
a number of things that are prescriptive in this case. No,
I don't like over prescribing dating posts. Divorce what it
should or shouldn't look like. I think it induces a
lot of confusion and shame and self criticism. Look in
(15:45):
its extreme, if you're going out four to five nights
a week and not getting a lot of sleep and
drinking and in and around lots of different guys, and
that dynamic starts to feel like a little messy and
overwhelmed and the opposite of grounding. I think that's something
to look at. That pattern probably is an ideal in general,
(16:07):
and certainly not right in the aftermath of divorce. But
I think having like a once a week is the limit,
and if more, that's bad. If it less, that's bad.
It is overly prescriptive and not useful and ends up
making people feel bad. I'm not really interested in.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, the rules of it all are not Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
That's right. So again intuition, you know, back to like, Yeah,
so lately I've been going out two three times a week?
How does that feel to me? Is it starting to
feel like I don't have as much time for self
care or sleep or my kids? No shame, no criticism, Yeah,
maybe a little. I wonder if I should try twice
a week. I wonder what that'll feel like right, you know,
(16:55):
and just being curious as opposed to the rules, which
I think end up feeling confusing and shaming. I mean,
once a week get you decide that and that feels
right to you, that's great. But if you decide to
do more when you're getting to know someone, I think
that's fine. Look, there's the cliche trajectory which plays out
(17:18):
often enough that post divorce, you meet someone and filling
in space with that person makes you feel less hard
things and you aren't thinking about your loneliness and your
confusion and your anger and your trauma. We want to
watch out for that. If we are unable to sort
of reserve time for self reflection to feel all the
(17:43):
messy feelings, and the main culprit is dating and the
time spent there, that's something to consider. Getting through divorce
in a way that is healing and stabilizing requires time
to reflect and heal and feel all those tricky emotions.
(18:04):
I don't want to equate it to like, so if
you're going out more than once a week, that means
you can't do that. I just want to be conscious
about it. Am I giving myself time and space and
mobilizing resources to help myself heal. And if the answer
is no or like a diminishing yes, we should look
at that and eliminate the things that are or at
least modify the things that are getting in the way.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Right, speaking of rules, what do you think about books
like the rules or men are from Mars and women
are for wherever other planet? I can't remember Venus Venus?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Today? Do those kinds of books help?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Look? I mean I think some of those concepts were
created because of patterns that repeat over time. I mean,
none of us are strangers for the idea that like
men and women oftentimes think differently and are or less
emotional about certain things, et cetera. So I think having
like a language to talk about it is it can
be useful, like with ourselves between friends with a partner.
(19:13):
So they have utility because they make those things concretized
in a way that like we can wrap our brain
around as opposed to just like the feeling of all
those experiences. Having said that, I think dialogue and conversation
and nuance and like the self check in pattern that
(19:33):
we're talking about is your best tool, not a like
chapter three pages.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
You know, let me just hold on.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
This is what must be happening. Instead, look in yourself,
what is happening? What do I understand about it? How
does it feel in my body? If it's confusing, can
I say more about it? And what's ever going on
with the person in front of us being able? I
mean it depends on the situation. Show I'm over generalizing,
but to do a version of what you said you
did in your circumstance, like huh, I'm feeling this thing
(20:08):
or I'm thinking about this thing, like I just want
to say it out loud. What do you think? You
know that we if we get our head to into
books or like Instagram quotes or it can feel very
confusing and overwhelming when the answers eventually come within ourselves
and in dialogue with our potential partners, and if our
(20:31):
potential partners are unable to sustain a dialogue that is
delivered in a respectful, digestible way, we need to think
about that.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
If you've broken up, if you're going through a divorce
and you're having trouble, you're having a hard time getting
over your ex spouse, what should we do? I mean,
what questions should we be asking ourselves so that we
don't stay stuck. That's the worst when you just can't
get over it.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yes, yes, yes, it is the worst. It's deeply painful
to go through all the things that we're talking about
and still of the.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Person, especially if that person is already dating someone else
moved on.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
It's devastating. And I'll start there, and it's not a
pleasant concept to consider, but it's like a death that
induces an incredible amount of grief and all of the
stages that go with grief, all the anger, all the denial,
all the bargaining, you know, all that stuff that is
(21:42):
a little bit cliche, but like, oh so true, you know.
And there's no avoiding that. There's no amount of like
dating or bashing him, or a therapy or whatever other
tools you might mobilize that can be a shortcut of that.
You're gonna mon it, you're going to agrieve it, and
you're going to feel the things. And that season of
(22:04):
life is a little bit of a dark night of
the soul, right, it is really, really, really had to
get through so paradoxically, leaning in here it is here,
it is, I'm leaning in and I'm taking care of
myself in every way I can think of, and not
expecting it to feel like better or okay in the
(22:25):
short run. And I'm like allowing myself to sit in
it so that as it begins to pass through, which
it always does. I remind clients all the time. Name
a feeling state you've had that hasn't changed eventually, No
such thing. It does change. It does change, and more eventually,
(22:46):
maybe not tomorrow or even like six months from now
or twelve months now, shipped and change eventually. And so
it's about sitting in it, allowing it to come up
and out from your body in a safe way, and
just like I said, curate, cultivating as many resources as
possible as you get through it, being really kind and
graceful to yourself. And when you have time, I shouldn't
(23:08):
say time, when you have space to start gently thinking
about why this person is not a safe choice for
you any longer. Right, And if the only thing on
the list is because they don't choose me, that's enough.
That's not a safe choice for you anymore, even if
(23:28):
everything else about them is amazing, which is usually not
the case. But even if it is, that renders it
an unsafe choice for you. And that doesn't mean it's
easily accepted, but it's something to start orienting yourself around.
I can't choose, it doesn't choose me. I can't invest
in something that isn't reciprocated, and gently starting to understand
(23:50):
the part of you that's willing to do that for two.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Oover reminds me just like this hard this hard truth
that I had when I was going through it was
the therapist saying, Jenny, why would you love someone who
doesn't love you back? And that resonated for me in
my times of missing and wanting and attaching to things.
I would say that to myself and I would be like,
(24:14):
I would hate hearing it. Then it started to become like, Okay,
this is a feeling. It's going to pass. This is temporary.
I know this only lasts for like three minutes, this
intense feeling of hurt and pain, And then I would
replace that with he is not an option for you anymore.
In my mind, that is not an option, So look
somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yes, it is a deeply painful process to not be chosen,
and there's no way around that. But recognizing that truth
and building a relationship with it is critical because we
can't let ourselves orient our heart, mind, body, sould is
(24:54):
someone who doesn't choose us. It's the ultimate self betrayal. Yeah.
So it is with great care that we continue to
like gently pick ourselves up and place ourselves on another path,
because that path we don't get to be chosen, we
don't get the love that we deserve. And it's like
with great sadness and despair to remove ourselves there. But
(25:15):
we must, we.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Must, we must survive. Yeah. I love our conversation. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh, have such a pleasure, such an important conversation you
have I live.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yes, thank you for being with us. Yes, of course
that conversation with doctor Hillary was so incredibly helpful for
even me. I've been divorced for ten plus years and
I got so much out of it. And I really
hope that everybody listening who is in the position of
thinking about a divorce, in a divorce, just had a divorce.
(25:49):
I hope that you got some really good info from
this pod. And I just I know you can do this,
you will get past this, and we are here to
help you. So please please, if you want to call
us for advice one eight four four four I do pod.
That's eight four four four four three six seven sixty three,
(26:12):
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