May 8, 2024 • 72 mins
I love when friends do cool stuff. I love when friends are talented. This episode is a one two punch of exactly that. Nathaniel Shannon is a NYC based photographer and you have seen his work...well, everywhere but I specifically had him on the show to discuss a real labor of love and now, it's here...the First Ten Years of St. Vitus. For the uninitiated, St. Vitus is the incredibly important Brooklyn, NY venue responsible for a TON of gigs that you wish you were at. We discuss that book, as well as his upbringing in Detroit as well as an incredibly entertaining Earth Crisis photo shoot we worked together on. Dig in and enjoy!
Listen to the Official Outbreak Podcast here (executive produced by yours truly)
Weekly Recommendation Playlist
Subscribe to the podcast on YouTube
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to one hundred words or less.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
With Gray Harkins.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Good morning, good after you, good evening. Whenever you're listening
to this, thank you for consuming this podcast, because let's
be honest, time is short. There are a million other
things you could be doing, but you are spending quality
time with me and the guest of this particular episode.
And obviously you can read so you can tell who
(00:44):
the guest is. I'm excited to welcome Nathaniel Shannon, who
is a professional photographer done has done so much work
for so many bands. But the reason that he is
here is that the amazing venue slash bar in the
green Point, Brooklyn area called Saint Vitas, who is their
(01:05):
doors are shuttered right now for a moment. They're still
putting on shows, still contributing to the scene in a
very real way. Nathaniel put together an amazing book compiling
the first ten years of the venue, and it is
a beautiful book. I'm excited because I eventually will get
my copy, but from what I've seen it shared on
(01:26):
the internet, it looks absolutely incredible. I will include a
link in the show notes to where you can order
this book, and it is shipping right now it's so
exciting that you know, people can put their love and
effort into something like documenting this particular venue that has,
you know, contributed to the independent music scene in a
(01:47):
very real way, just like Nathaniel's photos have as well.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Well.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
First of all, welcome, because, like you know, if this
is your first episode, we talk about punk and hardcore
and indie rock and emi well, whatever it is, as
long as it's independent minded and comes from small sweaty rooms,
and Saint Fitus is clearly a small sweaty room, so
that is what we got. You can email the show
one hundred words podcast at gmail dot com. Always love
(02:14):
to hear feedback from you, guest. Ideas, whatever it is,
welcome that inbox is open, it would be funny, Like
I mean, I guess you can close down inboxes or
just have like an auto responder, I guess. But anyways,
email the show. You can also for absolutely free and
it genuinely supports the show. Just leave a rating and
review on the Apple podcast page, or you can leave
(02:35):
a rating on the Spotify page if you listen to
it there also if you listen to podcasts via YouTube.
I publish all of these episodes on YouTube, so that
way you can just follow along. All you do is
like obviously, you subscribe to a channel.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
You know how to do that.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I publish all these, you know, pretty quickly after I
publish this, you know, audio only version. I mean technically
I'm not doing a video PODCAS has version of this thing.
But anyways, I digress. You can listen to on YouTube link.
In the show notes, you'll be able to find all
of the appropriate places that you should visit, either before
you listen to this thing or right after you listen
(03:13):
to this thing. It's all important. I am continuing with
my weekly recommendations for those of you that are keeping score.
I just I love sharing new music, and I love
talking about new music to friends and anybody who is
willing to listen. But I have been compiling a weekly
recommendation of just whether it's something that is like brand new,
(03:36):
or whether it's something that I just randomly discovered that
you know, came out fifteen years ago, doesn't necessarily matter.
I throw all of it into a playlist. That way
you can listen to hopefully a bunch of music that
either you know or don't know, because you know, that's
the only way that we find out about stuff right
or Instagram and all the other algorithms that spit stuff
(03:57):
out of you. But this week's recommendation is a brand
new record from the master of horror synth soundtrack stuff,
John Carpenter. For those of you that have not been
paying attention to what John Carpenter has been doing. I mean,
obviously a legendary, legendary director within the context of you know,
(04:19):
I mean Halloween, That's all I need to say. But
you know, it's done a ton of amazing work, and
he has scored a lot of his films. He's actually
been putting out records with his son, which I think
is like the coolest thing ever, Cody and then another contributor,
a guy named James Davy or Daniel Davies sorry, and
they've been putting out records under the Lost Themes Moniker
(04:42):
where it's you know, listened as John Carpenter, Cody Carpenter,
and Daniel Davies. But Lost Themes is basically like, hey,
we're scoring these fictional films that don't exist, like they're
not part of John Carpenter's ouvra as it were. And anyways,
the one Lost Themes four just came out on Sacred
(05:03):
Bones Records. I listened to it. I just I adore
what John Carpenter does. I actually saw him. Gosh, I
want to say, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, he took the
Lost Themes band on tour, and I just I find
it so charming that he's able to take his son
on tour, they're able to write music together. I just
(05:24):
think it's so cool. So yeah, I saw him at
the Grove and Anaheim and he was actually doing a
greatest hits of his entire soundtrack era and then also
original stuff with the Lost Themes record, the first one.
And yeah, if you like anything of what I've just mentioned,
you absolutely will adore this new record. And it doesn't matter.
(05:44):
You can listen to Lost Theames three, Lost Themes one
doesn't matter, Like, just dive in and listen to John
Carpenter's soundtrack work, but most specifically the Lost Themes records,
and this one that just came out is Lost SAMs four.
So there you go, hopefully you enjoy. Now let's talk
to Nathaniel. I met him many many years ago, as
(06:05):
we will talk about at the very beginning of the interview,
where I hired him do a photo shoot with Earth Crisis,
and we share a lot of funny stories about that.
But I love running into people in one context and
then them just coming back in my life because you know,
they're just punk and hardcore kids and we just all
happen to find each other at some point once we've
(06:26):
all existed alongside of each other. So his work is
important following Instagram and like I said, the Saint Fitus
book is shipping now, so just pay attention to it
because it's a really really cool document of a very
important venue. So let's talk to Nathaniel right now.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
And it's funny. I was actually looking back in my
memory banks and I was like, oh, yes, you shot
Earth Crisis for me when I worked at Century Media
many many years ago, and then you pop back up
in my life with the Dead Guide documentary, and then
I was like, oh my gosh, yes, like me, I
(07:12):
just always thought fondly of you because you did such
a cool job at that particular Earth Crisis shoot. But
the question here is, I'm sure like that story that
I shared with you is fun for you because you
get to cycle back and you know, re meet, slash
work with people in a multitude of different things, And
(07:33):
I'm sure there are even wilder stories of just being like, oh, yeah,
I talked to this person like seven years ago, and
then all of a sudden, I'm like working with them
on a commercial or something. Is it fun for you
to kind of like dip back into people's lives like that?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You never know who you're going to run into in
you know, under the umbrella I think of professionalism coupled
with whatever our interest in our individual subcultures. You never
know you're going to run into. You know, you mentioned
I did this Earth Crisis shoot for those of you
(08:09):
listening out there. Ray brought me on to shoot Earth
Crisis for you were at Century Media then, right, yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
I think it was the I think it was. Yeah,
it was like that to the Death record cycle.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So yeah, so I photographed Earth Crisis promost for you
guys for that record cycle. And I show up to
this apartment in Brooklyn and I yet to be completely
gentrified Williamsburg on the waterfront. Back before, it was like.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
How the fucking you afford an apartment over here?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Back then, it was just like, oh, here's a bunch
of squatters in an apartment and there was just dead animals,
like there's taxidermy and just crosspunk smoking weed everywhere, and
then I see Carl in a headband and I was like,
this is not this is the antithesis of like everything
(09:08):
that I've ever known about this band without like actually
having ever met them before. And they're all like fucking
incredible people, like really really really nice, and we have
like such a hilariously fun day. But like inside, as
somebody who was never straight edge and never really got
involved in that part of that subculture, it was just
(09:31):
like the irony for me, as like a sarcastic brick
was so fun right, like like are you guys okay?
Like are you guys gonna have melt? If you know?
And they're all like the whole day just ended up
being like what can I get these dudes to do
that is further outside of their comfort zones and already
(09:53):
being in this environment, which included a rather infamous photo
now of the sitting around a piano, to which I
think I described to them. I was like, we should
do like an archie bunker like all in the family,
because there's this piano in this room. Just like this
room was like maps and mirrors and like deady animals,
(10:15):
and I got them to x up and like Carl
sat down at the piano and they all sang like
stood behind them like singing along like it was a musical.
And they were like, why are they doing this? And
I was like, why the fuck would you not do it?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Like notal ever?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Imagine, let me ask you a question. Let me let's
start this interview by interviewing you when you got those pictures,
so there was that. I also photographed them in a shower,
like in a bathtub, and they were like, why are
we doing I was like, nobody would ever think that
Earth Crisis would take a shower together. What was your
thoughts when you saw those photos?
Speaker 5 (10:50):
I yes, the perfect question. I do remember. I no, no,
I like it because I, like you, was always impressed
with the fact that Earth Crisis was obviously taken seriously.
You really didn't get to see any different sides of
their personality. And as you know, they are you know,
(11:12):
entertaining funny dudes. I mean, albeit a little bit weird,
but that's all of us. And I think the pictures
that you.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Did just to interest y please their their knowledge of
the Simpsons is like unparallel, which is the first thing
that I was just like, wow, you guys love the
Simpsons and like we have that in common, and like
it just immediately turned into like, yeah, let's just talk
about like cartoons and funny shit, and again like not
what I expected.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Sorry to interrupt, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
No, you're great, but that I think that story in
and of itself is perfect. So I remember getting those
photos back and I love them because it showed the
band in a different light, which is essentially what you
were trying to do with a you know, pro Not always,
but sometimes with an album promo photo shoot, you really
(12:02):
need to be like, Okay, here's the band that you know,
especially Earth Crisis, Like they've existed for a very long
time and everybody thinks about them being a certain thing.
So sometimes you just need those photos to put them
in a different light. So I loved it. I thought
they were incredible.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
My favorite part of that whole shoot was I wouldn't
say it was like nervous around them, because again, that
man was like terribly more important to other people than me.
They were just dudes. But I didn't know how they
would react to me asking them about an infifamous story
(12:36):
I had heard about and can dagger throwing yogurt at them?
Yep classes where they were playing in Syracuse, And they
all just kind of started laughing and there like that's
the question you have for us? And I'm like, yes,
Earth Crisis, this is the question I have for you
if I were to ever meet you, which I am
now photographing you, Why do you can dagger throw yogurt
(12:57):
at you? How'd you feel about that? And they all
just kind of start laughing there, like fuck, man, we
forgot about that. Yeah, that was like a different time. Yeah,
like oh fuck fuck you know, fucking dagger. I just
always thought that, you know, that was in in the
mythos that becomes music or culture, let's just call it culture. Everybody,
(13:23):
you know, your memory of your childhood, your youth, even
like weeks ago, it's fractured, it's based, it's biased on
you know, like where you kind of are at now
and not necessarily where you were at then, And where
(13:45):
I think a lot of people were at then is
not where they're at now. So like I don't want
to say it was like maturity, but it's kind of
like entertaining of what people remember and how they remember it,
which is why I picked up a camera and started
taking pictures and I put out a book and you
should go buy.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
It here it's your professional just linking it back. It's beautiful. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That was like a really funny, fun day of something
that like kind of got dropped in my lap last
minute that shoot with them, and that started our friendship,
you know. So like even when we got a hold
of you for Dead Guy, I don't think I've realized
and made the connection at first that like you were
the same person.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
No, I agree.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
You and I started talking and like we booked you
to do your interview for the Dead Guy thing. I
was like, oh shit, I know this guy.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Yeah, totally totally.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Because we do share. Like you know, I've had a
host of really radical, wild, debauchress and entertaining experiences over
the years, and I had only been maybe I had
been in New York a year at that point. I
hadn't been here like a terribly long time. And that's
always just like one of those like memories of just
(15:00):
like something so wacky, mainly because of the environment that
like we were shooting in, but like walking in as
like swells like weed and there's dead deer heads everywhere.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
In there's no this is not normal fire.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Anyway, I'm glad that we have that to bond over.
That's like a really good introduction for friendship.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
I agree wholeheartedly, and I kind of dovetailing off that
question the you know idea, and honestly, I feel really
connected to you know, people like you and others who
are documenting, whether it's you know, live shows or the
scene or whatever you call it, like you are building
an important piece of context in the same way that
(15:40):
I'm attempting to do here with the podcast as well.
When did you kind of make that connection between you
documenting you know, these portions of people's lives at the
shows or whatever. When did you make that connection that
it's like, oh, this is kind of what I'm doing, Like, yes,
of course a simple act of doc documenting is you know,
(16:01):
you understand immediately, but like when did you I guess
kind of you know, your level up and being like, oh, yes,
I'm providing more than just you know, taking pictures at
a show or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That's a really good question. I think, like right in
this moment is when I realized that, like I did
that now I know, I haven't look at a definite answer.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
I think.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I my story is.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
My story is the town.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I grew up in, Ipsilanti, Michigan. Had two art classes
at at my high school, Art one, Art two, and
I had exhausted both of those like forty five times.
And I ended up doing dual enrollment in the local
community college because I had a really great photo program
and I had a friend that like was like, Hey,
(16:56):
I'm going to take photography, and it's like that sounds
fucking rad.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
I'm going to do that.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Skip around a couple months later. A year later, I
had kind of gotten immersed in the local music community
in the Ipsilanti and Arbor and Metro Detroit areas, and
there's a band called Copra Youth that I absolutely loved
that were like g I Joey and punk rock band.
(17:21):
And the opening band was a band called the oven Mits,
who featured a guitar player named Jeff Tuttle from who
When that band turned into a band Clock Capture Flag,
Jeff went on to play and dilling Joy Escape Plan,
which is how all the nerds out there love and
know him now. Jeff was one of the first people
(17:45):
that because he showed up in this basement and they
started playing like face to face songs with Van Halen
solos in the middle of them. I was like, what
the fuck is this this?
Speaker 4 (17:58):
You can do that?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And I think I was just like enamored by this
dude that was like such an incredible musician who was
like in the same age bracket as me, and I
just kind of started following him and that man around
and taking pictures, and six Degrees led to just like
hang out in Detroit all the time and just documenting
(18:21):
what I liked. I didn't really ever consider it like
me documenting anything like with the retent. I think the
intent was I want the fuck out of this town.
I like music, and it makes sense to me that
this new medium that I found that gave me kind
(18:43):
of a charge and became almost an overnight addiction of
chasing this dragon, of being in the dark room and
watching prints develop in the developer back when we.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Had film for all you kids out there, right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know that process of developing your own film, processing
the pictures, Like, I just fell in love with that
and have been chasing that for years. So the long
answer to your question is when did I realize I
don't know that I ever really had an aha moment
of realization that this is something that like I wanted
(19:20):
to do for the rest of my life as much
as it's just something that I have done, because if
I didn't do this, I'd probably be dead.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
Right, It's I mean, I like, I like your description
of that because it is this you know, weird pull
towards anything creative where it's like you can't you can't
imagine once you do it, you can't imagine your life
without it. Like even if it's taking up you know,
all the time in your day or like hardly any
you still are just like I have to be connected
(19:50):
with it. So I understand the like aha moment, not
ever being like you know, the clouds parted and the sunshine.
But it's just like no, I like, of course I'm
gonna take pictures like that's it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, even now, I find it insufferable to go watch
a band play and not be like, yeah, I should
be like if I'm not shooting, it doesn't matter what
size venue, if like I'm not shooting, I'm just thinking
of like I know I could be up there doing
(20:22):
a better job than everyone, right hasn't come through. No,
It's like it's such a I've been doing this for
so long that it's so hard to go just watch,
just be an observer and not an observer with a camera. Yeah,
(20:46):
because as I you know, we were talking a couple
of months ago, a couple of months ago, a couple
of minutes ago. Your memory is fractured, and like what
you remember is not always accurate, and it's never going
to be accurate. But that's how you know, legacy and
and mythos culture gets built, which is a whole other philosophical,
wacky ball of wax. But like having a camera, not
(21:09):
only can I prove was I was at things. I
almost looked at it as like a souvenir. You know,
not only am I doing something in service almost of
documenting somebody else's craft, but I'm also getting a customizable
memento of that. You know, I'll buy your record, I'll
(21:29):
buy your shirt, I'll help support you. But like, this
is fucking mine. The same way when I hear that
jam that is mine, I interpret, you know, people's music
differently and like how it affects us. And that was
something that I think I really absorbed and really got
(21:49):
off on, kind of in a sense of.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Like this is mine.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I have that picture, you know, and I've been able to,
at least for me, make some last images throughout the
years that are just straight up for me because I
happen to be there. And there's to me nothing cooler
than that of having developed relationships with people who I
looked up to or were influential, Like you know, audio
(22:19):
sense is awesome, but like being able to like kind
of capture them. You know, there's like the ideology in
in some some cultures that like cameras steal your soul,
right Yeah, Like I have this like massive archive of
people's souls that I've collected, right, you know, which is
(22:39):
fucking cool. Yeah, And again like I don't I don't
think I ever set out set out to like do
that as much as that's just the way life kind
of unfolded because I just kept doing it because I
had to keep doing it.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Friends, band merch, it's incredibly important. That's why you need
to visit rockabilia dot com and use this promo code
one hundred words or less ten percent off your entire order.
And what makes them different than a lot of other
companies that you know, just sell merch online. For one,
it's all independently owned and operated. This is a company
(23:16):
that's been around for thirty plus years, selling exactly to
people like you ships from the Midwestern the United States,
which means it gets to you li lickety split. Also,
they officially license all of their merch designs, which means
the bands get paid. It's all above board, none of
this bootleg stuff. Like you know, I'll be honest, I
have some bootlegs in my closet, and you know, do
(23:38):
I feel good about that?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
No?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
But I also feel good about supporting bands by coding shows,
buying the real merch, et cetera, et cetera. And you know,
if you buy bootleg stuff, it's usually from a band
that has terrible designs anyways, but that is beside the point,
because rockabilia does not sell bad designed merch anyways. Rockabilia
is the place where you need to go and find
all all of the things. Whether you're into like Bringing
(24:02):
the Rise In, Grateful Dead, Black Sabbath, Pantera, I don't
care what it is, you will probably find a design
there as officially licensed and shipped directly to your door.
I love the company, love rock what they do, and
I love what rockabilia stands for. Which means ethics, supporting
independent music, and ultimately giving you cool. March So Rockabilly
(24:25):
dot Com one hundred words or lessons the promo code,
so check it out.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
It is something I wanted to hit on. Was the
I actually played a show in yipsil aany I play
mister Muggs? Yes, for sure it was, and it was
with Oh my gosh, I'm totally blanking on the band
a Kid Brother Collective.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, yeah, Michigan exactly.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
Sure, for sure. And I you know, I mean, you
hear the stories obviously about Detroit and everything, but I remember,
I mean because it was relatively early in my touring life,
so it's like maybe two thousand and two thousand and one.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Anyway, I just remember leaving the venue and being like, yeah,
we're not staying here tonight. Like so, I'm guessing the
sense of you know, menace, I guess, for lack of
a better term, from a total you know, sheltered suburban boy.
Was that pretty present in your life as well? Or
(25:19):
was that just kind of like no, that's what I knew.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I mean growing up. I grew up in the suburbs,
you know, Okay, I grew up in ipsilany It. That
area is had to Actually, how do I answer it? Yeah, No,
that area had a massive impact. I wouldn't necessary. So
how I'm going to answer this is not necessarily like
the question you're answering or asking. But like I grew
(25:46):
up in a dual college town. You've got u of
m and ann Arbor in eastern Michigan. In my town, ipsilany,
I grew up on the poor side of the tracks,
much different socioeconomic divide, very culturally diverse, considerably poorer than
ann Arbor other towns in the county. I grew up
(26:07):
in suburb of Metro Detroit. Absolutely people fled from downtown
West towards my town. We had My town was top
famous for two things, three things Dominos, ihyp hop and
the Andola Gay which famously like dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Yeah,
(26:31):
that was built. So my town was like the factory town.
Ann Arbor was the college town. An Arbor was where
obviously like the Stooges came from and John Sinclair, who
just passed away yesterday or two days ago, cultural mecca
of radical you want to call it hippie whatever, movements
(26:55):
of avant garde, punk, rock art culture that now still
pretends that it's that, but as an unaffordable shithole of
corporate college greed and Starbucks Ipsilanti, my town is still
very much the same, which as an adult is kind
(27:15):
of beautiful. So getting back to your actual question, it
was never something that I necessarily thought was any sort
of an opponent or the thing I had to prevail
as much as I just needed to get out because
I wanted to see more and I knew there was
(27:36):
more out there. Metro Detroit itself and Detroit proper is
kind of a different ball of wax. But like, I
don't think it's anything that ever was other. It wasn't
anything but what it was, And because that's where I
grew up, going to see baseball games as a kid,
(28:00):
to go see bands play as a teenager, it just
kind of was what it was and it was just exciting.
So even though, yeah, like it's got a sordid history
and there's neighborhoods like you fucking do not go into
even if it's daylight. To an outsider, that might seem
(28:21):
kind of intimidating, but I would say the same thing
of like going into cities that, like I don't know
that are very similar. Sure, there's two anecdotes in particular
that I find kind of entertaining. They kind of can
speak to this as far as like photo related things
(28:42):
and being with people from outside of town. Is years ago,
The Black Dalli and Murder were filming a music video
at a venue called The Magic Stick, which has got
a bowling alley in it, and our friend Kelly, who's
the pr person at the time for them at Metal Blade, Uh,
wanted to go across the street. There's a McDonald's like
(29:04):
across the street, and I think she was gonna go
get us coffee and it was like the only place
to go get coffee. And she's like, yeah, I'm just
gonna go get coffee.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And we're like, no, you're not. She's like no, what
are you talking about. We're like, you're not going over
there alone? And she's like, well why, And I was like,
this is fucking Detroit, Michigan, right, And I was like
I'm gonna go with you. And we were walking across
the street. I was like, you see that dude under
the pine tree and she's like yeah. I was like, yeah,
(29:35):
that dude's probably gonna murder you, and she just kind
of looked at me. I was like, I'm being like
slightly facetious, but like you don't fucking know, and like
you're not from here. She's wonderful. I love Kelly, been
friends a very long time. She is a white woman
from Los Angeles. This is not this is not her town. Like,
I'm gonna escort you because I do not want my
(29:58):
town that I love. I don't want to think ill
of it, but I also want to kind of like
look out for you a little bit. And you know,
we crossed the street and Crackhead approached us and I
told him to fuck off and like we've got coffee
for everybody, and we came back. Years later, I was
(30:19):
out on tour with Goahore and they played the Iroq,
which is like the east side of Detroit, which is
pretty not great. That bar in particularly is in a
pretty shitty neighborhood, and we were driving around looking for
spots to take some like group shots and I was like, oh,
we should get out here. And we get out and
(30:40):
we start walking down the street and those dudes all
look at me and they're like, where the fuck did
you take us? Like just we're on the east side, dude,
It's fine. It's like two pm. The like we should
get back in the car. And I'm like, you guys
are fucking new worlds. I've been with goathr in their home,
(31:03):
like in New Orleans years ago. I was down there
for a shoot with them and we were at their
practice space and I'm forgetting which ward is across the
street not great as all Pj's, and we had a
rain delay, and they're a bass player. At the time,
Nathan and I wanted to go get a drink and
(31:24):
we went to the bar across the street where we
had to get buzzed in to go into the bar,
and like all those dudes were like, I can't believe
you're going over there, and I'm like, man, I'm from Detroit, baby,
which that phrase carries wait, you know, throughout your career
people being scared of you or thinking you're from the streets. Anyway,
we go to this bar, we.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Have a drink.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I meet some guy named Popeye who only had one
eye because his other eye got scratched out as a
wacky and we go back. Now years later, they're in
my home town and they you know, not to throw
a goahor under the bus. But like they were not
feeling being out on the streets and we're like, They're like,
this is fucking worse than New Orleans. And I was like,
(32:05):
is it though, is it? Like I don't know, And
you know, we were taking some pictures and some people
approached us, and I was like, Okay, now it's time
to leave. Get like that dude absolutely has a gun.
I could see it in his sweatpants and he is
holding onto it. We gotta go fucking go back to
the Iraq. That's part of the town. But like that's
(32:30):
also part of the charm, you know. And I say
some of this stuff like facetiously now, but like that
that's kind of ours in a way, you know. So
like even with this just like I'm just gonna go
off on a tangent of like you know, like this
(32:50):
influx of gentrification people moving to Detroit, which I'm not
opposed to, you know, I think it's wonderful going home
now is so cool to see like how the city
has changed for the better in a very beautiful way.
And there's just like opportunities that never existed before as
far as jobs and people's health and and it's really
(33:14):
beautiful to see. But at the same time, it's like, man,
we used to be able to do literally whatever we
wanted as late teens, running around here, going to watch
ignorant bands play with pretty much no regard of consequences
or concern of our own safety, which you know, I
(33:38):
don't know that the kids have these days. They probably
still do. I don't know if there's anymore, so I
can't speak on there, but.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Yeah, this is this is really random, but something I
know that is probably you know, meaningful to you because
like they taking your photos from a you know, physical medium.
I mean, obviously you were shooting on film at one
point and then you know, do digital now as well.
But were you more stoked when your photo got on
(34:08):
a piece of merch or a CD or vinyl layout?
Like what kind of you know, brought you more joy
so to speak, even though they both are obviously very cool.
Did you have a preference? Yah?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Sure, I think I think vinyl, you know, CDs still
just seem like this cheap, manufactured thing that the first
time that happened it was cool. That was like, oh man,
like I'm now part of this thing that I buy, right,
(34:39):
I'm part of the commerce stream, but like vinyl is,
it was so much more gratifying of more of like
a collectible art piece. And even now, all these years later,
and like I've you know, been fortunate to have photos
grace many album covers, liner notes, I still get real excited,
(35:02):
if you know, like when somebody's like, oh, here's the record,
your stuff's in and I get to open it up
and like thumb through the vinyl layout.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Sometimes it's cool and there's like a booklet and that
stuff is in there. Given myself, like a lot of people,
you know, spent countless hours pining over this stuff in
my bedroom, and and it's never not weird of there
(35:34):
being like a slight disconnect of not even I don't
want to say I'm not acknowledging it, but it's like, oh, yeah,
I did that.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Anyways. Flipping through.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Years ago, I Hate God played Advitis and Saint Vitis
Bar in Brooklyn for those who don't know, And it
was right before Joey Lacas there. They're a former drummer
passed away and I was sick, shit, I had the flu,
and I was like I gotta I gotta go because
I feel like I'm letting somebody down, even though nobody
(36:07):
asked me to be there. I feel like I'm letting
myself down, letting the world down, if I don't go
to this. And we took a handful of photos in
the basement, like group shots, and I don't even think
I stayed for the full set. I think I shot
a couple songs and was like, I have to get
out of here because I have like a hundred in
something degree temperature and probably shouldn't even be here to
(36:28):
begin with. But I didn't know that was the last
time I would see them play with Joey and their
bass player Gary called me like right after Joey died
and was like, hey man, we're gonna use we want
to use like your group shot as like the back
of this I Hate God record self titled record, which
(36:51):
was like kind of a big deal of like they
were back touring, functional putting out new music, and that
at the time was like one of the most exciting
things of not only like did I get to take
the last picture with him right in it, but that
(37:12):
also gotten out printed on an LP, like a vinyl LP,
and I got it in the mail. Actually, you know what,
I didn't even I saw it in a store before
I even got it in the mail, and I picked
it up in the store and it was just like, oh, yeah,
I took that in school.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
There was like a disconnected that it's kind of weird,
of like that's just another picture of a band on
the back of a record, but like that's a kind
of a proud moment I had of I just happened
to be there. But had I not gone, because I
was like woom, sick, right, not gonna go, that opportunity
(37:49):
wouldn't have presented itself, you know. So over the years,
it's always weird. It's always weird to see your stuff
in print or like where it pops up, like seeing
your pictures on TV sure randomly, like of stuff that
like I've either licensed or whatever happens from time to time.
(38:14):
It's always weird because there's just a disconnect that is
a disconnect. Yeah to describe, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
Well, yeah, no, I understand what you're saying, because it's like,
especially when stuff is used outside of the context that
you it originally anticipated using this all of a sudden,
it's like, oh wow, I guess you know, this photo
can travel to a million different places, and I never
would have thought this would have been on television or whatever.
So I totally get what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Even as recent as a couple of weeks ago. I
don't know what's going on with Trustkill Records, but they
have like an internet presence now, and they had posted
that Earth crisis photo like the the all in the
family Archie bunker sure minus minus the racism like band photo,
(39:11):
and all these people were just like, oh, look, it's
Earth Crisis at a piano, and you know, people were
tagging me in it or or mentioning that it was
me and that that was nice of them. But even
that was just like, oh, yeah, I took that.
Speaker 5 (39:27):
That's rights. Yeah, well that's funny knowing that you've obviously,
you know, dipped in and out of doing like you know,
quote unquote commercial shoots, like you know, the stuff that
obviously can pay the bills in a different way that
you know, the five hundred dollars I gave you for
a you know, promo shot for Earth Crisis or whatever.
(39:51):
Do you find yourself, I guess applying different you know techniques,
And I know this is probably like a stupid question
to ask, but like, do you do you find yourself
you know, doing different things than you would you know,
shooting a show at vitis or whatever when you're doing
you know, these more commercial type shoots.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So I have a freelance client that is a pharmaceutical
company and I help them force pills on Americans to
kill us all faster. That's perfect sieve that we should
all just be exterminated, right, that's my answer.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
No.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
So we were on this pharma job a couple of
years ago. It's just like internal marketing video chit like
they have money and that's awesome. And the head of
another pharmaceutical company was at this conference and they are
a very important person and they wanted to do a
group photo of everybody that was at this conference. And
(40:52):
they had built out this like ESPN Sports Center looking
like led like tunnel that they walk through because they
thought it looked cool for some reason. And they were like, yeah,
we want to do this group picture. You're gonna have
like ten minutes. And I was like, oh, I know
this world. Yeah him, and it's backstage with somebody. So
(41:15):
I went to my buddy Mark Beemer, who also shoots bands,
and was like, hey man, I got this idea, and
he's like, God, what do you want to do? And
I was like, just hear me out, dude, here's what
we're gonna do. Go get a smoke machine, like fog machine,
fog the shit out of that hallway, and then I'm
going to put a light at the back, and then
(41:36):
we're going to put one off to the side, and
we're gonna do like straight up like Hype Williams nineteen
ninety four Hip Hop Photo. And he was just like,
can't we just and I was like, dude, shut the
fuck up, go give me a fog machine. And we
fogged it out, and you know, there was there was
a cool guy in a vest who was like what
(41:57):
are we doing? And I was like, Woo tang and
he's like Wu tang and then immediately struck the Wu tang.
You know, cool cool pharma guy in a vest. Arms
crossed hip hop posts and I was like, everybody knows
that post. So if I just yell wu tang and
a bunch of farmer people, they're all going to get
into position, which is what I did. And I yelled
Wu tang at them, and I got this really like
(42:21):
such so fucking dumb. I got this really great photo
of them in this fogged out digital led walkway backlit
Hype Williams nineties hip hop photo, and Mark Beemer afterwards
was just like, fuck, dude, that's awesome. And I was like, dude,
(42:41):
that this is just what I would do if I
had ten minutes to set up a band shoot. It's
the same shit. It's just people. It's just a group
of people in a photograph. So how do you make
them look cooler than they are, which not only makes
them happy and pay you, but also like satiates like
(43:03):
some bit of creativity versus kind of the sterile work
environment that that stuff can be, you know. And I
afforded the opportunity, I think, with trust now of working
with that client a lot over the years of like
they allow me to do more stuff like that where
I'm like, hey, oh my god, this is a bare
minimum of what I would do in one part of
my life. But for you guys, it's like this is
(43:24):
incredible and it's too like I just lighting, Like I
can shoot a music video. I know how to light that,
I know how to do this. It's like it's kind
of all relative and at the end of the day,
they just want to look cool. Everybody just wants to
look cool. If you've got a couple of tricks up
your sleeve of like you know, your kind of notebook
(43:44):
of like lighting setups that you can do really quickly,
I can fall back and just kind of rent and
repeat that over and over again, whether it is like
pharmaceutical corporate people or you know, I hate God in
the basement somewhere.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Yeah, which is I mean, honestly, like I I love
that response on a multitude of levels. The fact that
you know, because you have the run and Gun limited
resources experience, it's much easier for you to be able
to pull something like that together. And at the core
of it, like distilling all of why people take photos
(44:21):
down to just this basic idea of like, oh, yeah,
we just we're here to obviously make people look cooler
than they are and that's it. Yeah, and like that's
that's a simple that's my job. This is what I'm
here to do. It's really cool.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
You know, you just said Running gun Man. I lived
in New York for fifteen years now, didn't have a
car for like a very long time, so everything needed
to come with me on the train my lighting setup,
my you know lightstance Century needed. It didn't have enough
to like, well, uber didn't exist forty five years ago
(44:58):
when you hired me for that. But it's like that
kind of stuff of like getting used to working on
a no budget, not being able to rent things, not
being able to hire assistance. Now it's different and I
can like again take those like street knowledge ideas of
like I gotta get on the book subway with all
my gear to like, oh no, I have a budget
where like I can rent stuff and hire people to
(45:19):
like help me like realize these ideas at a grande
or more grandiose level. But those are all just kind
of like building blocks of foundations of like building up
to making this like very cool house that not so
cool people can hang out in to look cool.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Our friends at evilgreed dot net are an amazing web
store solution provider for bands and record labels of all
shapes and sizes. But ultimately they act like a record
label where they have a specific point of view if
you are heavy artistic challenging in regards to the way
that you're creating music, that is the type of stuff
(46:04):
that they deliver in spades. Let me just list some
of the bands that they work with. Whether it's Sun,
whether it's Brutus, whether it's Zealand ardor whether it's Speed.
How about two hundred stab Wounds.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
You get it?
Speaker 3 (46:18):
You can see on this spectrum of hardcore metal, heavy music.
They got it on lock and I love what they do.
So go to Evilgreed dot net. Stack up your cart.
It ships from Berlin, Germany, because that is where the
company is based. But let me litch you in on
a secret. The shipping rates to us here in the
(46:38):
United States are very advantageous because of the exchange rate.
And I've ordered from them here in California.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
It's got to me.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
In like ten days. It's incredible. They have a full
time staff ready to ship your stuff out immediately. And
plus they got Vinyl. They got a bunch of stuff
for you to put in your cart, check out and
then have it shipped you. So I love Evilgreed dot Net.
Large reporters of this podcast, and I probably all the
(47:05):
money that they spend on advertising, I just send right
back to them in the form of or ordering more
mergs from them. So it is a very uh you know,
circuitous relationship. But regardless I love evil greed dot net,
so order from them like I do.
Speaker 5 (47:19):
As you were obviously developing your jobs and taking photos
at shows and you know, learning all the things that
you were learning as you started to take photos, when
did you, I guess feel like you were quote unquote
taken seriously? I mean, I know that there's an obvious
joke there, like no one takes you seriously now, but
(47:39):
but like know me long enough that that was gonna
be my other I yes, I saw right where you're going.
But just that idea of like getting that first you know, job,
whether it was like a band paying one hundred dollars
or something like, do you have something in your mind
that kind of sticks out where it's like, oh wow,
like someone likes my vibe, like I'm excited to do this.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I've had a multitude of those in my lifetime, naming
one because that is like a fleeting feeling sure of
you know. I mean, I think like the first time
I ever had a photo printed in Real Detroit magazine,
it was of the John Spencer Blues explosion. This dude
(48:31):
Nate Cavalieri, who I'll always remember that guy because he
published the first photo I ever had in print. He
later went on to like make these fucked up cartoons
for Buddyhead before Buddyhead became the political social media power
that it is now, back when they just talked about
guns n' roses on the internet forty years ago. That
(48:56):
was a huge accomplishment. That was very cool. I feel
like I kind of made it. I don't even think
I got paid. I sent him a beat up shoe box,
big full of prints that they somehow, with the magic
of whatever technology they had, printed it. I fast forward
to last summer I was in I was in the
(49:21):
Netherlands with Dismember and Dismember was playing a festival and
I had to pee really bad, and I was shooting
the show. I was out working with them. We've been
kind of filming like some archival I'll say it this way,
archival footage over the last couple of years of Dismember
(49:44):
being pretty active again. And I was standing behind the
stage and the port bodies were so far away, and
I was like.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
I'm just gonna peep behind the stage. It's done. Nobody knows, right.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
And I was standing there and I looked up at
the sky and there's a full moon standing there ping
behind the stage. They were playing skin Her Alive or
some other fantastic song that they got in trouble for
in the early nineties the British government that tried to
get them banned, and I just kind of laughed to
(50:17):
myself of like, this is what the moon looks like
in the Netherlands while this member is playing in twenty
twenty three, right, that's fucking incredible. I'm here because of
this piece of plastic and metal that's hanging around my
neck that I've never let pretty much out of my
hand for the last twenty five years, and like that,
(50:40):
that was one of those moments, I think more than anything,
where I was like I made it. I'm here, I'm
in the Netherlands behind a stage looking up at the moon,
and I because I'm forever twelve years old, how old
at the moon? It was just like fuck it, I'm
gonna hold the moon and I'm going to go back
and finish shooting this show and hang out with those
(51:02):
dudes and document you know their legacy at this point,
which is you know, they've allowed me into their their
family and is incredible. And I've been afforded a handful
of opportunities like that with bands of like really spending
a lot of time with people, documenting them, becoming friends
(51:22):
with them, photographing our friendship. But that was something of
just like that moon in the Netherlands, in the middle
of nowhere. I know, we were like hours, a couple
hours from Amsterdam, just like in a field somewhere. It's
just like dudes dressed like Vikings everywhere, and it was
hilarious and awesome. All the nuclear blast Germans were there
(51:45):
and those dudes are all funniest shit, and it was
just like, oh, this is I'm part.
Speaker 5 (51:50):
Of this, right. It just that moment hit different than
other things.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, And I've had a handful of you know, and
like I think, especially a lot more recently where especially
during the pandemic, and just getting older, of being much
more present and recognizing things while they're happening rather than
life being nostalgic. Life is present. I have a handful
(52:20):
of photos in the Punk Rock Museum to you know,
jerk myself off here in Las Vegas, and I was
out there last Manet. Right after I saw you.
Speaker 5 (52:32):
I thought, oh, yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
So I was in California for the run as Satia shows,
and I got to hang out with you guys for a.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Little bit, which was very cool.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
And my girlfriend and I drove to Las Vegas right
after that to go to the Punk Rock Museum because
I hadn't been to Vegas in like twenty years. I'm
not particularly a big fan of that town, but I
do love UFOs, and so we went to Las Vegas
and we went to the Punk Museum, and Lou from
(53:02):
Sick of It All was giving a tour at the
mont Rocket Museum. And we walk in a room and
Lou's like talking to these people that you know, got
the guided tour by Lou from Sick of It All,
and he points this picture on the wall. I also, like,
didn't I kind of knew what work I had up
in the in there, but like I didn't, Like, I
(53:24):
hadn't seen it yet, so I didn't realize there was
like a picture of Jimmy Gestapo from Murphy's Law playing
years ago at Trash Bar in Brooklyn. It was Halloween
and they all dressed like cops with pig noses, and
he had like shaken up a beer and sprayed it
all over the crowd, and I got this great picture
of just like beer sprang out of this can all
(53:45):
over everybody and Lou like points at the picture and
he's like, that was fucking Jimmy Guestopo, Like we all
wanted to be fucking Jimmy Jay. This is my sick
of it all impression. We all wanted to be fucking
Jimmy Gestapo, Like you know, that guy changed their lives.
We all wanted to emulate him, like what or whatever.
And he's pointing at my picture and like it didn't
even dawn on me that that was mine, Like my photo. Yeah,
(54:07):
And Rachel, my girlfriend, looks at me. She's like, dude,
that's your picture. You should say something. And I was like, no, dude,
Like these people came to like fucking listen to this
dude talk, not Me'd be like, hey, I took that,
that's my picture, Gonna do that, Like I feel like
an asshole because this is also weird to me that
this guy is now referencing this other guy that was
influential enough to all of these people in this room listening,
(54:32):
and my photo is the focal point of that. I'm
just gonna kind of be pre president in this moment
and like take that shit in for what it's worth
of like I would never guess twenty five years ago
hanging out in basements watching bands play that like I
would now be watching Lou discuss my picture and why
(54:52):
it's important to him, right because of who's in that picture.
It's sucking weird.
Speaker 5 (54:58):
You know, Yeah, it's totally totally it's.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
Super fucking weird. But you know, that's one of a
handful of moments of like recognizing in the least douchey
way of saying it, like being a contemporary of versus
a fan. I mean, I'm always a fan first, but
like now I'm a contemporary of these things that I
(55:23):
grew up listening and looking at.
Speaker 5 (55:25):
Yeah, absolutely, it's it does, and I think the world flattens,
especially when you have those moments where you're just like,
oh wow, like this person you know is whatever three
to five years to seven years how many however many
years older this person is, but we are all here
for the same reason, and that is what really just yeah,
flattens your brain where you're just like what now, come on, yeah,
(55:48):
why are you talking about this? This is weird? It
is it is, Yeah, yeah, what I mean beyond the
obvious fact of you know, like pivoting to the you
know Saint this book that you lovingly put together and
you know, documented over so many years. Beyond the fact
that you know, you weren't there at one point and
you were obviously going to shows there. What do you
(56:12):
think attracted you to the idea of you know, contextualizing
this thing that was obviously uh, you know special and
a a you know, community hall for many people to
go to. Well, what kind of pushed you over the
edge to do this?
Speaker 2 (56:29):
I got really tired of looking at the black wall
that was on the north side of the building, across
from the actual bar, and I had approached the owners
at one point and I was like, there's nothing in here, man,
(56:51):
Like there's like all this ephemera and bullshit like behind
the bar, which is awesome, Like they've amassed an incredible
collection of like stuff from people that have played there
and like you know, signed records and drumsticks and whatever.
And my old roommate Jay Morris had they had put
a boatload of his show posters that he had designed
(57:13):
in the back room in the live room up around
like the top of the wall, and I was like,
why don't we do like photos or something in the
front bar room. So I printed a bunch of shit,
and like, we hung it up and we cycled through
that a couple of times of swapping workout over a
(57:35):
handful of years. And right before the pandemic, I was
feeling a little I was bored. I wanted stuff to do,
and I was feeling real frustrated with living in a
city where it is unaffordable to do anything, and unless
(57:59):
you have money and somehow are in some sort of
art community where somebody has wall space, it's really difficult
to like put on like gallery shows or be part
of gallery shows. That's not necessarily my scene. I don't
particularly care for that world. I think it's fucking gross,
(58:22):
and it's frustrating because myself and a million other people
that hang out at that bar struggle to just have
people look at our work. Social media is great for
promotion and getting your work in front of an audience,
(58:43):
but like, nothing's better than walking into a room being like,
oh hey, race, here, give you a hug, be like,
hey man, what do you think about that over there?
Take a lap with your friend, look at some stuff,
And that's sort of like personal community. Been talking with
Carolyn Harrison, who Caroline Harrison Sorry, who used to be
(59:07):
the social media and and kind of marketing person for
the bar. She's an incredible, incredible and incredible illustrator, has
had a very very very incredible career of making a
lot of band art. And I was like, look, you're
really sick. You fucking do cool shit. I do cool shit.
(59:28):
We know a bunch of people to do cool shit.
We got to put the shit on a wall somewhere
that's not at a bar where it's one night only,
because one night only opportunities are kind of a fucking
waste of time, you know, like you'd spend all this
time either printing or making work to like hang it
up for one night. So people, a bunch of people
(59:48):
can be like, oh yeah, it's awesome, but like they're
there to drink, They're not really there to like look
at your work. So we had been discussing doing kind
of like a Vitis Presents gallery situation, and I had
found a couple warehouse spaces kind of in the neighborhood
close by sort of owner George and I and had
(01:00:10):
been looking at this one spot a couple of blocks away,
and that was like mid February of twenty twenty. We
all know what happens yep.
Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
O. J.
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Simpson killed his wife and the world changed.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
And.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
As far as how people ingest media, and so take
a couple of months off and I come back around
and I'm like, hey, since this gallery thing's not going
to work, because we don't really have anywhere to go
(01:00:48):
momentarily until the world gets a shit together, why don't
we do some sort of imprint thing. And I had
initially thought about doing like a zine or something small,
and was like, you know, like one hundred pages up
buck twenty, maybe one hundred and fifty pages, and they
were like, yeah, you know, yeah, would people care? And
(01:01:10):
I was like, I don't know, you know, ten year
anniversary is coming up, because maybe a ten year anniversary thing.
So I started kind of picking away and like had
done in some preliminary interviews and like presented them and everybody,
I think at that point, like six eight months into
the pandemic of realizing like this is gonna be not
(01:01:31):
only a long lasting thing at that moment, but also
going to change global history of just everything, everybody was
on board. And I started slowly piecing together this book
again with a goal of like I was like one
hundred and fifty pages. I can do that shit like
six months. It's gonna be great. I'm gonna bang this
(01:01:52):
thing out in no time. And here we are, like
three and a half years later, it's thirty hundred and
forty four pages of like this monstrosity of something that
I I never would have imagined had grown, would have
grown because I've been like super unrealistic based on my
own lack of experience and ignorance, has grown into this
(01:02:12):
like massive archival piece of ten years of this community
center being open, you know, which is also like a
wacky testament to the pandemic kind of being a cut
off point for that because that's where we ended it.
The last show was Human Impact, which is Chris Spencer
from Unsane. That was the last show featured in the book.
(01:02:35):
It was the last show before the everything got shut down,
so that just naturally made sense. But you know, it
was really to celebrate a decade. And now here we
are at thirteen years. I think this month, I think
thirteen years next week. Okay, the place has been open,
(01:02:58):
so we're a little behind on the book, but you know,
I've never made a book.
Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
Before, so oh, it's a bug I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Right, did everything the wrong way?
Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
Right?
Speaker 5 (01:03:07):
Well, you learn that the only way you learned. Now
that's really cool. Well, I love that the idea of
being able to find a space that you not only
connect with, but then you have such a wide variety
of things that happen in that space. And I think
that what is really cool to document, you know, this
(01:03:29):
particular venue. But then also it's through the lens of
I mean, pardon the pun, but it's through the vision
of you and what this thing means to you, and
then obviously everybody else that's surrounding.
Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Yeah, sure, yeah, I sure, yeah, thanks for the compliment.
Speaker 5 (01:03:48):
Yeah, no problem.
Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
What I did not set out to do, but I
think it was pointed out to me recently is, let
me back up, part of their concern about doing the
book in the first place is like doing any sort
of like legacy piece feels like you're killing.
Speaker 5 (01:04:08):
Off right, Like it's done, was and it's done.
Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Like here's a documentary book.
Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
That topic came up in conversation with a friend recently
and they were like, you didn't make like a nostalgic thing.
You made a real time archive of a place that
is functional. Yeah, You're all you're doing is celebrating like
an era of, not the existence of And I was like,
(01:04:38):
oh shit, I didn't think about it like that. You know,
I guess like that wasn't necessarily intent, but you know,
doing something. And I think part of even finding our
archival information was harder and easier because it's so fresh, right,
(01:05:00):
fresh being like five years ago, six years ago, eight
years ago of people still have stuff, people are still
maybe in the area social media, Instagram, you know, like
all of that stuff is like much more searchable because
it still kind of exists in some sort of like cloud, cosmic, plane,
fucking whatever. Whereas if it was like twenty years from now,
(01:05:22):
how many people that ended up contributing to the book
would have their images that I found just playing Internet
detective as the Whites like to say, doing my own research, right,
looking for like pictures of ex Horter or looking for
(01:05:44):
pictures of you know, it's even silly shit like every
time I die pretty popular band YEP took me a
year and a half to find somebody with pictures. I
think they've played there twice. That's more than no times.
You'd think those totally bunch of people shot that show
for how many motherfuckers like have cameras taking pictures of
(01:06:04):
bands now, you know? And it took me a year
and a half, and there was like a handful of
those things where it's like I'm beating my head against
the wall where I'm like, why don't more people have
pictures of Anthrax? Why don't more people have pictures of
this band?
Speaker 4 (01:06:16):
You know?
Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
So even like some of the content in the book
I wanted to display, but I like simply just couldn't
find it between putting out open calls or like researching
the internet. You know. But a twenty years from now,
how much of that stuff would actually be accessible? Maybe
somebody doesn't log into their Flicker account and that disappears.
(01:06:38):
Somebody doesn't log into their Instagram. Maybe America pisses off
the wrong country and we all get nuked. I didn't
you know who knows?
Speaker 5 (01:06:46):
Yep, no, for sure. The last question, if you'll indulge
me just because I will put you on the spot
in regards to the you know, manifestation of Shoe being
somebody or something that you have not been able to
work with, that you would be like, you know what,
it would be absolutely hilarious, fun cool to you know,
(01:07:10):
shoot this as a subject. Do you have a you know,
proverbial white whale as it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Were Charles Barkley.
Speaker 5 (01:07:16):
Oh damn, that's a good one, dude. I hope you're serious,
because that's sick. Okay, dude, that would be Yeah. I
really like that for you.
Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
There's, like, I think, nostalgically, a handful of things that
you carry with you into adulthood, obviously, like music is
like for us huge. I was a massive Phoenix Suns
fan when I was a kid, and I've always been
enamored by Charles Barkley because he's just a jackass, and
(01:07:53):
I've always wanted to meet him. I've had two friends
who have met him who had like really great experiences,
which make it encouraging to me that at some point
maybe I'll get to meet Charles Barkley with him. Okay,
actually this is totally random. A couple of years ago,
I was assisting a photographer who had hired me and
(01:08:19):
I got recommended to this person through a mutual friend
and he called me and he's like, I gotta go
photograph John Fetterman, who at the time was or no
he was a governor. He had been elected governor of
Pennsylvania who was very progressive and really has pissed off
(01:08:40):
a lot of people in Pennsylvania and the country, and
he was great. Working with him was phenomenal. But the
whole point of this was I got hired by this
guy and he called me and he's like, you know,
I've got this kind of style and I was like, oh, yeah, no,
I know your work with Charles Barkley. He was just
like talking about dude. I was like, yeah, you took X,
(01:09:01):
Y and Z of Charles Parkley. I didn't know, Like
obviously I looked this dude up before I've worked for him,
but I was like, oh shit, who took these pictures
of this dude that, like, I just was fascinated by
when I was like twelve years old. And I'm still
twelve years old, so like, why would I now want
to go hang out and photograph Charles Parkley. Absolutely, he's
(01:09:21):
not a nessle.
Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
Yeah, dude, I mean the round amount of rebound is
in your I would say a good five to seven
year plan, because I mean he signed a brand new
contract for his you know, TNT show, so he's got
plenty of promo shots left in him, So I think
this will happen for you.
Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
I don't think he's completely gone fishing.
Speaker 5 (01:09:41):
No, not yet, not yet. I mean he's he's still
counting too much money. And I mean that's fine, it's great, good.
But yeah, well, well I appreciate you letting me put
on the spot for that, and I could not have
predicted that answer, but it's beautiful. Maybe maybe we can
get you Dan Marley though, that could be a good
stub to Marley.
Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Yeah, man, he went to he's from City, Michigan. He's
from my state.
Speaker 5 (01:10:02):
Oh hell, yea even better. This is great.
Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
I love it Central Michigan, King of the Outside three yep.
Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
But like as far as like musicians go, I mean, yeah,
like a more serious answer, I've been fortunate to shoot
a lot of people that, like I kind of never
really thought I would. I think also getting older, there's
more of a concern about like people being assholes. It's true,
(01:10:33):
and just kind of like, yeah, but like what if
that dude sucks, because I've had a lot of those,
and I've had a lot of like really positive experiences too,
you know, like I photographed Frank Black once, not like
like portraits but like just Frank Black and the Catholics,
and he was a fucking asshole and he yelled at
me in front of the entire crowd on the microphone,
told me to get the fuck out of his face
(01:10:55):
because I was standing in front of some young females
that I think he was looking at. And it was
a bummer because I love the Pixies, so one of
my favorite bands ever. And I was like, oh, you're
an asshole, dude. There's like other people here with cameras
shooting thirty five millimeter film because it was that long ago,
and I was like, why am I getting singled out right?
Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
Jeez dude?
Speaker 5 (01:11:15):
Well that yeah, as they say, don't meet your heroes,
but yeah, well we'll make sure Charle Sparhood is delivered
on that experience.
Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
But yeah, if you've gotten in with Charles, just tell
him you know.
Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
Yeah, we got you there, You have it, Like I said,
Saint Vitis has a book out compiling the first ten years.
Nathaniel is the author put all this thing together, obviously
in conjunction and cooperation with Saint Vitas, and it's an
incredibly important thing. So go ahead link in the show notes,
order away and enjoy once it comes to you. Thank
(01:11:48):
you Nathaniel for your time. Let's talk about next week.
Next week, I have Chris McClain, who is the vocalist
for Reunited Stretch Armstrong, an amazing hardcore band. You just
put out a new EP on Eidine Records. I wanted
to have Chris in the pod for quite some time.
Him and I have many mutual friends, we just have
never actually met until we potted together and it was
(01:12:11):
one of those things where we were, like, we both
follow each other on Instagram right like we're watching you
just children grow up and it's just it's funny. But anyways,
Chris is a great dude. Love Love Stretch Armstrong, like
Rituals of Life. That record just fundamentally changed a lot
of the way that I think about, you know, hardcore,
(01:12:31):
as far as how you can inject positivity but not
just be like a walking cliche. So anyways, that's what
I got next week. Until then, please be safe, everybody,
You're listening to one hundred words or less.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
With Gray Harkins.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Good morning, good after you, good evening. Whenever you're listening
to this, thank you for consuming this podcast, because let's
be honest, time is short. There are a million other
things you could be doing, but you are spending quality
time with me and the guest of this particular episode.
And obviously you can read so you can tell who
(00:44):
the guest is. I'm excited to welcome Nathaniel Shannon, who
is a professional photographer done has done so much work
for so many bands. But the reason that he is
here is that the amazing venue slash bar in the
green Point, Brooklyn area called Saint Vitas, who is their
(01:05):
doors are shuttered right now for a moment. They're still
putting on shows, still contributing to the scene in a
very real way. Nathaniel put together an amazing book compiling
the first ten years of the venue, and it is
a beautiful book. I'm excited because I eventually will get
my copy, but from what I've seen it shared on
(01:26):
the internet, it looks absolutely incredible. I will include a
link in the show notes to where you can order
this book, and it is shipping right now it's so
exciting that you know, people can put their love and
effort into something like documenting this particular venue that has,
you know, contributed to the independent music scene in a
(01:47):
very real way, just like Nathaniel's photos have as well.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Well.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
First of all, welcome, because, like you know, if this
is your first episode, we talk about punk and hardcore
and indie rock and emi well, whatever it is, as
long as it's independent minded and comes from small sweaty rooms,
and Saint Fitus is clearly a small sweaty room, so
that is what we got. You can email the show
one hundred words podcast at gmail dot com. Always love
(02:14):
to hear feedback from you, guest. Ideas, whatever it is,
welcome that inbox is open, it would be funny, Like
I mean, I guess you can close down inboxes or
just have like an auto responder, I guess. But anyways,
email the show. You can also for absolutely free and
it genuinely supports the show. Just leave a rating and
review on the Apple podcast page, or you can leave
(02:35):
a rating on the Spotify page if you listen to
it there also if you listen to podcasts via YouTube.
I publish all of these episodes on YouTube, so that
way you can just follow along. All you do is
like obviously, you subscribe to a channel.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
You know how to do that.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I publish all these, you know, pretty quickly after I
publish this, you know, audio only version. I mean technically
I'm not doing a video PODCAS has version of this thing.
But anyways, I digress. You can listen to on YouTube link.
In the show notes, you'll be able to find all
of the appropriate places that you should visit, either before
you listen to this thing or right after you listen
(03:13):
to this thing. It's all important. I am continuing with
my weekly recommendations for those of you that are keeping score.
I just I love sharing new music, and I love
talking about new music to friends and anybody who is
willing to listen. But I have been compiling a weekly
recommendation of just whether it's something that is like brand new,
(03:36):
or whether it's something that I just randomly discovered that
you know, came out fifteen years ago, doesn't necessarily matter.
I throw all of it into a playlist. That way
you can listen to hopefully a bunch of music that
either you know or don't know, because you know, that's
the only way that we find out about stuff right
or Instagram and all the other algorithms that spit stuff
(03:57):
out of you. But this week's recommendation is a brand
new record from the master of horror synth soundtrack stuff,
John Carpenter. For those of you that have not been
paying attention to what John Carpenter has been doing. I mean,
obviously a legendary, legendary director within the context of you know,
(04:19):
I mean Halloween, That's all I need to say. But
you know, it's done a ton of amazing work, and
he has scored a lot of his films. He's actually
been putting out records with his son, which I think
is like the coolest thing ever, Cody and then another contributor,
a guy named James Davy or Daniel Davies sorry, and
they've been putting out records under the Lost Themes Moniker
(04:42):
where it's you know, listened as John Carpenter, Cody Carpenter,
and Daniel Davies. But Lost Themes is basically like, hey,
we're scoring these fictional films that don't exist, like they're
not part of John Carpenter's ouvra as it were. And anyways,
the one Lost Themes four just came out on Sacred
(05:03):
Bones Records. I listened to it. I just I adore
what John Carpenter does. I actually saw him. Gosh, I
want to say, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, he took the
Lost Themes band on tour, and I just I find
it so charming that he's able to take his son
on tour, they're able to write music together. I just
(05:24):
think it's so cool. So yeah, I saw him at
the Grove and Anaheim and he was actually doing a
greatest hits of his entire soundtrack era and then also
original stuff with the Lost Themes record, the first one.
And yeah, if you like anything of what I've just mentioned,
you absolutely will adore this new record. And it doesn't matter.
(05:44):
You can listen to Lost Theames three, Lost Themes one
doesn't matter, Like, just dive in and listen to John
Carpenter's soundtrack work, but most specifically the Lost Themes records,
and this one that just came out is Lost SAMs four.
So there you go, hopefully you enjoy. Now let's talk
to Nathaniel. I met him many many years ago, as
(06:05):
we will talk about at the very beginning of the interview,
where I hired him do a photo shoot with Earth Crisis,
and we share a lot of funny stories about that.
But I love running into people in one context and
then them just coming back in my life because you know,
they're just punk and hardcore kids and we just all
happen to find each other at some point once we've
(06:26):
all existed alongside of each other. So his work is
important following Instagram and like I said, the Saint Fitus
book is shipping now, so just pay attention to it
because it's a really really cool document of a very
important venue. So let's talk to Nathaniel right now.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
And it's funny. I was actually looking back in my
memory banks and I was like, oh, yes, you shot
Earth Crisis for me when I worked at Century Media
many many years ago, and then you pop back up
in my life with the Dead Guide documentary, and then
I was like, oh my gosh, yes, like me, I
(07:12):
just always thought fondly of you because you did such
a cool job at that particular Earth Crisis shoot. But
the question here is, I'm sure like that story that
I shared with you is fun for you because you
get to cycle back and you know, re meet, slash
work with people in a multitude of different things, And
(07:33):
I'm sure there are even wilder stories of just being like, oh, yeah,
I talked to this person like seven years ago, and
then all of a sudden, I'm like working with them
on a commercial or something. Is it fun for you
to kind of like dip back into people's lives like that?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You never know who you're going to run into in
you know, under the umbrella I think of professionalism coupled
with whatever our interest in our individual subcultures. You never
know you're going to run into. You know, you mentioned
I did this Earth Crisis shoot for those of you
(08:09):
listening out there. Ray brought me on to shoot Earth
Crisis for you were at Century Media then, right, yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
I think it was the I think it was. Yeah,
it was like that to the Death record cycle.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So yeah, so I photographed Earth Crisis promost for you
guys for that record cycle. And I show up to
this apartment in Brooklyn and I yet to be completely
gentrified Williamsburg on the waterfront. Back before, it was like.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
How the fucking you afford an apartment over here?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Back then, it was just like, oh, here's a bunch
of squatters in an apartment and there was just dead animals,
like there's taxidermy and just crosspunk smoking weed everywhere, and
then I see Carl in a headband and I was like,
this is not this is the antithesis of like everything
(09:08):
that I've ever known about this band without like actually
having ever met them before. And they're all like fucking
incredible people, like really really really nice, and we have
like such a hilariously fun day. But like inside, as
somebody who was never straight edge and never really got
involved in that part of that subculture, it was just
(09:31):
like the irony for me, as like a sarcastic brick
was so fun right, like like are you guys okay?
Like are you guys gonna have melt? If you know?
And they're all like the whole day just ended up
being like what can I get these dudes to do
that is further outside of their comfort zones and already
(09:53):
being in this environment, which included a rather infamous photo
now of the sitting around a piano, to which I
think I described to them. I was like, we should
do like an archie bunker like all in the family,
because there's this piano in this room. Just like this
room was like maps and mirrors and like deady animals,
(10:15):
and I got them to x up and like Carl
sat down at the piano and they all sang like
stood behind them like singing along like it was a musical.
And they were like, why are they doing this? And
I was like, why the fuck would you not do it?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Like notal ever?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Imagine, let me ask you a question. Let me let's
start this interview by interviewing you when you got those pictures,
so there was that. I also photographed them in a shower,
like in a bathtub, and they were like, why are
we doing I was like, nobody would ever think that
Earth Crisis would take a shower together. What was your
thoughts when you saw those photos?
Speaker 5 (10:50):
I yes, the perfect question. I do remember. I no, no,
I like it because I, like you, was always impressed
with the fact that Earth Crisis was obviously taken seriously.
You really didn't get to see any different sides of
their personality. And as you know, they are you know,
(11:12):
entertaining funny dudes. I mean, albeit a little bit weird,
but that's all of us. And I think the pictures
that you.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Did just to interest y please their their knowledge of
the Simpsons is like unparallel, which is the first thing
that I was just like, wow, you guys love the
Simpsons and like we have that in common, and like
it just immediately turned into like, yeah, let's just talk
about like cartoons and funny shit, and again like not
what I expected.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Sorry to interrupt, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
No, you're great, but that I think that story in
and of itself is perfect. So I remember getting those
photos back and I love them because it showed the
band in a different light, which is essentially what you
were trying to do with a you know, pro Not always,
but sometimes with an album promo photo shoot, you really
(12:02):
need to be like, Okay, here's the band that you know,
especially Earth Crisis, Like they've existed for a very long
time and everybody thinks about them being a certain thing.
So sometimes you just need those photos to put them
in a different light. So I loved it. I thought
they were incredible.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
My favorite part of that whole shoot was I wouldn't
say it was like nervous around them, because again, that
man was like terribly more important to other people than me.
They were just dudes. But I didn't know how they
would react to me asking them about an infifamous story
(12:36):
I had heard about and can dagger throwing yogurt at them?
Yep classes where they were playing in Syracuse, And they
all just kind of started laughing and there like that's
the question you have for us? And I'm like, yes,
Earth Crisis, this is the question I have for you
if I were to ever meet you, which I am
now photographing you, Why do you can dagger throw yogurt
(12:57):
at you? How'd you feel about that? And they all
just kind of start laughing there, like fuck, man, we
forgot about that. Yeah, that was like a different time. Yeah,
like oh fuck fuck you know, fucking dagger. I just
always thought that, you know, that was in in the
mythos that becomes music or culture, let's just call it culture. Everybody,
(13:23):
you know, your memory of your childhood, your youth, even
like weeks ago, it's fractured, it's based, it's biased on
you know, like where you kind of are at now
and not necessarily where you were at then, And where
(13:45):
I think a lot of people were at then is
not where they're at now. So like I don't want
to say it was like maturity, but it's kind of
like entertaining of what people remember and how they remember it,
which is why I picked up a camera and started
taking pictures and I put out a book and you
should go buy.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
It here it's your professional just linking it back. It's beautiful. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That was like a really funny, fun day of something
that like kind of got dropped in my lap last
minute that shoot with them, and that started our friendship,
you know. So like even when we got a hold
of you for Dead Guy, I don't think I've realized
and made the connection at first that like you were
the same person.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
No, I agree.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
You and I started talking and like we booked you
to do your interview for the Dead Guy thing. I
was like, oh shit, I know this guy.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Yeah, totally totally.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Because we do share. Like you know, I've had a
host of really radical, wild, debauchress and entertaining experiences over
the years, and I had only been maybe I had
been in New York a year at that point. I
hadn't been here like a terribly long time. And that's
always just like one of those like memories of just
(15:00):
like something so wacky, mainly because of the environment that
like we were shooting in, but like walking in as
like swells like weed and there's dead deer heads everywhere.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
In there's no this is not normal fire.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Anyway, I'm glad that we have that to bond over.
That's like a really good introduction for friendship.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
I agree wholeheartedly, and I kind of dovetailing off that
question the you know idea, and honestly, I feel really
connected to you know, people like you and others who
are documenting, whether it's you know, live shows or the
scene or whatever you call it, like you are building
an important piece of context in the same way that
(15:40):
I'm attempting to do here with the podcast as well.
When did you kind of make that connection between you
documenting you know, these portions of people's lives at the
shows or whatever. When did you make that connection that
it's like, oh, this is kind of what I'm doing, Like, yes,
of course a simple act of doc documenting is you know,
(16:01):
you understand immediately, but like when did you I guess
kind of you know, your level up and being like, oh, yes,
I'm providing more than just you know, taking pictures at
a show or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That's a really good question. I think, like right in
this moment is when I realized that, like I did
that now I know, I haven't look at a definite answer.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
I think.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I my story is.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
My story is the town.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I grew up in, Ipsilanti, Michigan. Had two art classes
at at my high school, Art one, Art two, and
I had exhausted both of those like forty five times.
And I ended up doing dual enrollment in the local
community college because I had a really great photo program
and I had a friend that like was like, Hey,
(16:56):
I'm going to take photography, and it's like that sounds
fucking rad.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
I'm going to do that.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Skip around a couple months later. A year later, I
had kind of gotten immersed in the local music community
in the Ipsilanti and Arbor and Metro Detroit areas, and
there's a band called Copra Youth that I absolutely loved
that were like g I Joey and punk rock band.
(17:21):
And the opening band was a band called the oven Mits,
who featured a guitar player named Jeff Tuttle from who
When that band turned into a band Clock Capture Flag,
Jeff went on to play and dilling Joy Escape Plan,
which is how all the nerds out there love and
know him now. Jeff was one of the first people
(17:45):
that because he showed up in this basement and they
started playing like face to face songs with Van Halen
solos in the middle of them. I was like, what
the fuck is this this?
Speaker 4 (17:58):
You can do that?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And I think I was just like enamored by this
dude that was like such an incredible musician who was
like in the same age bracket as me, and I
just kind of started following him and that man around
and taking pictures, and six Degrees led to just like
hang out in Detroit all the time and just documenting
(18:21):
what I liked. I didn't really ever consider it like
me documenting anything like with the retent. I think the
intent was I want the fuck out of this town.
I like music, and it makes sense to me that
this new medium that I found that gave me kind
(18:43):
of a charge and became almost an overnight addiction of
chasing this dragon, of being in the dark room and
watching prints develop in the developer back when we.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Had film for all you kids out there, right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know that process of developing your own film, processing
the pictures, Like, I just fell in love with that
and have been chasing that for years. So the long
answer to your question is when did I realize I
don't know that I ever really had an aha moment
of realization that this is something that like I wanted
(19:20):
to do for the rest of my life as much
as it's just something that I have done, because if
I didn't do this, I'd probably be dead.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
Right, It's I mean, I like, I like your description
of that because it is this you know, weird pull
towards anything creative where it's like you can't you can't
imagine once you do it, you can't imagine your life
without it. Like even if it's taking up you know,
all the time in your day or like hardly any
you still are just like I have to be connected
(19:50):
with it. So I understand the like aha moment, not
ever being like you know, the clouds parted and the sunshine.
But it's just like no, I like, of course I'm
gonna take pictures like that's it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, even now, I find it insufferable to go watch
a band play and not be like, yeah, I should
be like if I'm not shooting, it doesn't matter what
size venue, if like I'm not shooting, I'm just thinking
of like I know I could be up there doing
(20:22):
a better job than everyone, right hasn't come through. No,
It's like it's such a I've been doing this for
so long that it's so hard to go just watch,
just be an observer and not an observer with a camera. Yeah,
(20:46):
because as I you know, we were talking a couple
of months ago, a couple of months ago, a couple
of minutes ago. Your memory is fractured, and like what
you remember is not always accurate, and it's never going
to be accurate. But that's how you know, legacy and
and mythos culture gets built, which is a whole other philosophical,
wacky ball of wax. But like having a camera, not
(21:09):
only can I prove was I was at things. I
almost looked at it as like a souvenir. You know,
not only am I doing something in service almost of
documenting somebody else's craft, but I'm also getting a customizable
memento of that. You know, I'll buy your record, I'll
(21:29):
buy your shirt, I'll help support you. But like, this
is fucking mine. The same way when I hear that
jam that is mine, I interpret, you know, people's music
differently and like how it affects us. And that was
something that I think I really absorbed and really got
(21:49):
off on, kind of in a sense of.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Like this is mine.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I have that picture, you know, and I've been able to,
at least for me, make some last images throughout the
years that are just straight up for me because I
happen to be there. And there's to me nothing cooler
than that of having developed relationships with people who I
looked up to or were influential, Like you know, audio
(22:19):
sense is awesome, but like being able to like kind
of capture them. You know, there's like the ideology in
in some some cultures that like cameras steal your soul,
right Yeah, Like I have this like massive archive of
people's souls that I've collected, right, you know, which is
(22:39):
fucking cool. Yeah, And again like I don't I don't
think I ever set out set out to like do
that as much as that's just the way life kind
of unfolded because I just kept doing it because I
had to keep doing it.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Friends, band merch, it's incredibly important. That's why you need
to visit rockabilia dot com and use this promo code
one hundred words or less ten percent off your entire order.
And what makes them different than a lot of other
companies that you know, just sell merch online. For one,
it's all independently owned and operated. This is a company
(23:16):
that's been around for thirty plus years, selling exactly to
people like you ships from the Midwestern the United States,
which means it gets to you li lickety split. Also,
they officially license all of their merch designs, which means
the bands get paid. It's all above board, none of
this bootleg stuff. Like you know, I'll be honest, I
have some bootlegs in my closet, and you know, do
(23:38):
I feel good about that?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
No?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
But I also feel good about supporting bands by coding shows,
buying the real merch, et cetera, et cetera. And you know,
if you buy bootleg stuff, it's usually from a band
that has terrible designs anyways, but that is beside the point,
because rockabilia does not sell bad designed merch anyways. Rockabilia
is the place where you need to go and find
all all of the things. Whether you're into like Bringing
(24:02):
the Rise In, Grateful Dead, Black Sabbath, Pantera, I don't
care what it is, you will probably find a design
there as officially licensed and shipped directly to your door.
I love the company, love rock what they do, and
I love what rockabilia stands for. Which means ethics, supporting
independent music, and ultimately giving you cool. March So Rockabilly
(24:25):
dot Com one hundred words or lessons the promo code,
so check it out.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
It is something I wanted to hit on. Was the
I actually played a show in yipsil aany I play
mister Muggs? Yes, for sure it was, and it was
with Oh my gosh, I'm totally blanking on the band
a Kid Brother Collective.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, yeah, Michigan exactly.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
Sure, for sure. And I you know, I mean, you
hear the stories obviously about Detroit and everything, but I remember,
I mean because it was relatively early in my touring life,
so it's like maybe two thousand and two thousand and one.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Anyway, I just remember leaving the venue and being like, yeah,
we're not staying here tonight. Like so, I'm guessing the
sense of you know, menace, I guess, for lack of
a better term, from a total you know, sheltered suburban boy.
Was that pretty present in your life as well? Or
(25:19):
was that just kind of like no, that's what I knew.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I mean growing up. I grew up in the suburbs,
you know, Okay, I grew up in ipsilany It. That
area is had to Actually, how do I answer it? Yeah, No,
that area had a massive impact. I wouldn't necessary. So
how I'm going to answer this is not necessarily like
the question you're answering or asking. But like I grew
(25:46):
up in a dual college town. You've got u of
m and ann Arbor in eastern Michigan. In my town, ipsilany,
I grew up on the poor side of the tracks,
much different socioeconomic divide, very culturally diverse, considerably poorer than
ann Arbor other towns in the county. I grew up
(26:07):
in suburb of Metro Detroit. Absolutely people fled from downtown
West towards my town. We had My town was top
famous for two things, three things Dominos, ihyp hop and
the Andola Gay which famously like dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Yeah,
(26:31):
that was built. So my town was like the factory town.
Ann Arbor was the college town. An Arbor was where
obviously like the Stooges came from and John Sinclair, who
just passed away yesterday or two days ago, cultural mecca
of radical you want to call it hippie whatever, movements
(26:55):
of avant garde, punk, rock art culture that now still
pretends that it's that, but as an unaffordable shithole of
corporate college greed and Starbucks Ipsilanti, my town is still
very much the same, which as an adult is kind
(27:15):
of beautiful. So getting back to your actual question, it
was never something that I necessarily thought was any sort
of an opponent or the thing I had to prevail
as much as I just needed to get out because
I wanted to see more and I knew there was
(27:36):
more out there. Metro Detroit itself and Detroit proper is
kind of a different ball of wax. But like, I
don't think it's anything that ever was other. It wasn't
anything but what it was, And because that's where I
grew up, going to see baseball games as a kid,
(28:00):
to go see bands play as a teenager, it just
kind of was what it was and it was just exciting.
So even though, yeah, like it's got a sordid history
and there's neighborhoods like you fucking do not go into
even if it's daylight. To an outsider, that might seem
(28:21):
kind of intimidating, but I would say the same thing
of like going into cities that, like I don't know
that are very similar. Sure, there's two anecdotes in particular
that I find kind of entertaining. They kind of can
speak to this as far as like photo related things
(28:42):
and being with people from outside of town. Is years ago,
The Black Dalli and Murder were filming a music video
at a venue called The Magic Stick, which has got
a bowling alley in it, and our friend Kelly, who's
the pr person at the time for them at Metal Blade, Uh,
wanted to go across the street. There's a McDonald's like
(29:04):
across the street, and I think she was gonna go
get us coffee and it was like the only place
to go get coffee. And she's like, yeah, I'm just
gonna go get coffee.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And we're like, no, you're not. She's like no, what
are you talking about. We're like, you're not going over
there alone? And she's like, well why, And I was like,
this is fucking Detroit, Michigan, right, And I was like
I'm gonna go with you. And we were walking across
the street. I was like, you see that dude under
the pine tree and she's like yeah. I was like, yeah,
(29:35):
that dude's probably gonna murder you, and she just kind
of looked at me. I was like, I'm being like
slightly facetious, but like you don't fucking know, and like
you're not from here. She's wonderful. I love Kelly, been
friends a very long time. She is a white woman
from Los Angeles. This is not this is not her town. Like,
I'm gonna escort you because I do not want my
(29:58):
town that I love. I don't want to think ill
of it, but I also want to kind of like
look out for you a little bit. And you know,
we crossed the street and Crackhead approached us and I
told him to fuck off and like we've got coffee
for everybody, and we came back. Years later, I was
(30:19):
out on tour with Goahore and they played the Iroq,
which is like the east side of Detroit, which is
pretty not great. That bar in particularly is in a
pretty shitty neighborhood, and we were driving around looking for
spots to take some like group shots and I was like, oh,
we should get out here. And we get out and
(30:40):
we start walking down the street and those dudes all
look at me and they're like, where the fuck did
you take us? Like just we're on the east side, dude,
It's fine. It's like two pm. The like we should
get back in the car. And I'm like, you guys
are fucking new worlds. I've been with goathr in their home,
(31:03):
like in New Orleans years ago. I was down there
for a shoot with them and we were at their
practice space and I'm forgetting which ward is across the
street not great as all Pj's, and we had a
rain delay, and they're a bass player. At the time,
Nathan and I wanted to go get a drink and
(31:24):
we went to the bar across the street where we
had to get buzzed in to go into the bar,
and like all those dudes were like, I can't believe
you're going over there, and I'm like, man, I'm from Detroit, baby,
which that phrase carries wait, you know, throughout your career
people being scared of you or thinking you're from the streets. Anyway,
we go to this bar, we.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Have a drink.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
I meet some guy named Popeye who only had one
eye because his other eye got scratched out as a
wacky and we go back. Now years later, they're in
my home town and they you know, not to throw
a goahor under the bus. But like they were not
feeling being out on the streets and we're like, They're like,
this is fucking worse than New Orleans. And I was like,
(32:05):
is it though, is it? Like I don't know, And
you know, we were taking some pictures and some people
approached us, and I was like, Okay, now it's time
to leave. Get like that dude absolutely has a gun.
I could see it in his sweatpants and he is
holding onto it. We gotta go fucking go back to
the Iraq. That's part of the town. But like that's
(32:30):
also part of the charm, you know. And I say
some of this stuff like facetiously now, but like that
that's kind of ours in a way, you know. So
like even with this just like I'm just gonna go
off on a tangent of like you know, like this
(32:50):
influx of gentrification people moving to Detroit, which I'm not
opposed to, you know, I think it's wonderful going home
now is so cool to see like how the city
has changed for the better in a very beautiful way.
And there's just like opportunities that never existed before as
far as jobs and people's health and and it's really
(33:14):
beautiful to see. But at the same time, it's like, man,
we used to be able to do literally whatever we
wanted as late teens, running around here, going to watch
ignorant bands play with pretty much no regard of consequences
or concern of our own safety, which you know, I
(33:38):
don't know that the kids have these days. They probably
still do. I don't know if there's anymore, so I
can't speak on there, but.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Yeah, this is this is really random, but something I
know that is probably you know, meaningful to you because
like they taking your photos from a you know, physical medium.
I mean, obviously you were shooting on film at one
point and then you know, do digital now as well.
But were you more stoked when your photo got on
(34:08):
a piece of merch or a CD or vinyl layout?
Like what kind of you know, brought you more joy
so to speak, even though they both are obviously very cool.
Did you have a preference? Yah?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Sure, I think I think vinyl, you know, CDs still
just seem like this cheap, manufactured thing that the first
time that happened it was cool. That was like, oh man,
like I'm now part of this thing that I buy, right,
(34:39):
I'm part of the commerce stream, but like vinyl is,
it was so much more gratifying of more of like
a collectible art piece. And even now, all these years later,
and like I've you know, been fortunate to have photos
grace many album covers, liner notes, I still get real excited,
(35:02):
if you know, like when somebody's like, oh, here's the record,
your stuff's in and I get to open it up
and like thumb through the vinyl layout.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Sometimes it's cool and there's like a booklet and that
stuff is in there. Given myself, like a lot of people,
you know, spent countless hours pining over this stuff in
my bedroom, and and it's never not weird of there
(35:34):
being like a slight disconnect of not even I don't
want to say I'm not acknowledging it, but it's like, oh, yeah,
I did that.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Anyways. Flipping through.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Years ago, I Hate God played Advitis and Saint Vitis
Bar in Brooklyn for those who don't know, And it
was right before Joey Lacas there. They're a former drummer
passed away and I was sick, shit, I had the flu,
and I was like I gotta I gotta go because
I feel like I'm letting somebody down, even though nobody
(36:07):
asked me to be there. I feel like I'm letting
myself down, letting the world down, if I don't go
to this. And we took a handful of photos in
the basement, like group shots, and I don't even think
I stayed for the full set. I think I shot
a couple songs and was like, I have to get
out of here because I have like a hundred in
something degree temperature and probably shouldn't even be here to
(36:28):
begin with. But I didn't know that was the last
time I would see them play with Joey and their
bass player Gary called me like right after Joey died
and was like, hey man, we're gonna use we want
to use like your group shot as like the back
of this I Hate God record self titled record, which
(36:51):
was like kind of a big deal of like they
were back touring, functional putting out new music, and that
at the time was like one of the most exciting
things of not only like did I get to take
the last picture with him right in it, but that
(37:12):
also gotten out printed on an LP, like a vinyl LP,
and I got it in the mail. Actually, you know what,
I didn't even I saw it in a store before
I even got it in the mail, and I picked
it up in the store and it was just like, oh, yeah,
I took that in school.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
There was like a disconnected that it's kind of weird,
of like that's just another picture of a band on
the back of a record, but like that's a kind
of a proud moment I had of I just happened
to be there. But had I not gone, because I
was like woom, sick, right, not gonna go, that opportunity
(37:49):
wouldn't have presented itself, you know. So over the years,
it's always weird. It's always weird to see your stuff
in print or like where it pops up, like seeing
your pictures on TV sure randomly, like of stuff that
like I've either licensed or whatever happens from time to time.
(38:14):
It's always weird because there's just a disconnect that is
a disconnect. Yeah to describe, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
Well, yeah, no, I understand what you're saying, because it's like,
especially when stuff is used outside of the context that
you it originally anticipated using this all of a sudden,
it's like, oh wow, I guess you know, this photo
can travel to a million different places, and I never
would have thought this would have been on television or whatever.
So I totally get what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Even as recent as a couple of weeks ago. I
don't know what's going on with Trustkill Records, but they
have like an internet presence now, and they had posted
that Earth crisis photo like the the all in the
family Archie bunker sure minus minus the racism like band photo,
(39:11):
and all these people were just like, oh, look, it's
Earth Crisis at a piano, and you know, people were
tagging me in it or or mentioning that it was
me and that that was nice of them. But even
that was just like, oh, yeah, I took that.
Speaker 5 (39:27):
That's rights. Yeah, well that's funny knowing that you've obviously,
you know, dipped in and out of doing like you know,
quote unquote commercial shoots, like you know, the stuff that
obviously can pay the bills in a different way that
you know, the five hundred dollars I gave you for
a you know, promo shot for Earth Crisis or whatever.
(39:51):
Do you find yourself, I guess applying different you know techniques,
And I know this is probably like a stupid question
to ask, but like, do you do you find yourself
you know, doing different things than you would you know,
shooting a show at vitis or whatever when you're doing
you know, these more commercial type shoots.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So I have a freelance client that is a pharmaceutical
company and I help them force pills on Americans to
kill us all faster. That's perfect sieve that we should
all just be exterminated, right, that's my answer.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
No.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
So we were on this pharma job a couple of
years ago. It's just like internal marketing video chit like
they have money and that's awesome. And the head of
another pharmaceutical company was at this conference and they are
a very important person and they wanted to do a
group photo of everybody that was at this conference. And
(40:52):
they had built out this like ESPN Sports Center looking
like led like tunnel that they walk through because they
thought it looked cool for some reason. And they were like, yeah,
we want to do this group picture. You're gonna have
like ten minutes. And I was like, oh, I know
this world. Yeah him, and it's backstage with somebody. So
(41:15):
I went to my buddy Mark Beemer, who also shoots bands,
and was like, hey man, I got this idea, and
he's like, God, what do you want to do? And
I was like, just hear me out, dude, here's what
we're gonna do. Go get a smoke machine, like fog machine,
fog the shit out of that hallway, and then I'm
going to put a light at the back, and then
(41:36):
we're going to put one off to the side, and
we're gonna do like straight up like Hype Williams nineteen
ninety four Hip Hop Photo. And he was just like,
can't we just and I was like, dude, shut the
fuck up, go give me a fog machine. And we
fogged it out, and you know, there was there was
a cool guy in a vest who was like what
(41:57):
are we doing? And I was like, Woo tang and
he's like Wu tang and then immediately struck the Wu tang.
You know, cool cool pharma guy in a vest. Arms
crossed hip hop posts and I was like, everybody knows
that post. So if I just yell wu tang and
a bunch of farmer people, they're all going to get
into position, which is what I did. And I yelled
Wu tang at them, and I got this really like
(42:21):
such so fucking dumb. I got this really great photo
of them in this fogged out digital led walkway backlit
Hype Williams nineties hip hop photo, and Mark Beemer afterwards
was just like, fuck, dude, that's awesome. And I was like, dude,
(42:41):
that this is just what I would do if I
had ten minutes to set up a band shoot. It's
the same shit. It's just people. It's just a group
of people in a photograph. So how do you make
them look cooler than they are, which not only makes
them happy and pay you, but also like satiates like
(43:03):
some bit of creativity versus kind of the sterile work
environment that that stuff can be, you know. And I
afforded the opportunity, I think, with trust now of working
with that client a lot over the years of like
they allow me to do more stuff like that where
I'm like, hey, oh my god, this is a bare
minimum of what I would do in one part of
my life. But for you guys, it's like this is
(43:24):
incredible and it's too like I just lighting, Like I
can shoot a music video. I know how to light that,
I know how to do this. It's like it's kind
of all relative and at the end of the day,
they just want to look cool. Everybody just wants to
look cool. If you've got a couple of tricks up
your sleeve of like you know, your kind of notebook
(43:44):
of like lighting setups that you can do really quickly,
I can fall back and just kind of rent and
repeat that over and over again, whether it is like
pharmaceutical corporate people or you know, I hate God in
the basement somewhere.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Yeah, which is I mean, honestly, like I I love
that response on a multitude of levels. The fact that
you know, because you have the run and Gun limited
resources experience, it's much easier for you to be able
to pull something like that together. And at the core
of it, like distilling all of why people take photos
(44:21):
down to just this basic idea of like, oh, yeah,
we just we're here to obviously make people look cooler
than they are and that's it. Yeah, and like that's
that's a simple that's my job. This is what I'm
here to do. It's really cool.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
You know, you just said Running gun Man. I lived
in New York for fifteen years now, didn't have a
car for like a very long time, so everything needed
to come with me on the train my lighting setup,
my you know lightstance Century needed. It didn't have enough
to like, well, uber didn't exist forty five years ago
(44:58):
when you hired me for that. But it's like that
kind of stuff of like getting used to working on
a no budget, not being able to rent things, not
being able to hire assistance. Now it's different and I
can like again take those like street knowledge ideas of
like I gotta get on the book subway with all
my gear to like, oh no, I have a budget
where like I can rent stuff and hire people to
(45:19):
like help me like realize these ideas at a grande
or more grandiose level. But those are all just kind
of like building blocks of foundations of like building up
to making this like very cool house that not so
cool people can hang out in to look cool.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Our friends at evilgreed dot net are an amazing web
store solution provider for bands and record labels of all
shapes and sizes. But ultimately they act like a record
label where they have a specific point of view if
you are heavy artistic challenging in regards to the way
that you're creating music, that is the type of stuff
(46:04):
that they deliver in spades. Let me just list some
of the bands that they work with. Whether it's Sun,
whether it's Brutus, whether it's Zealand ardor whether it's Speed.
How about two hundred stab Wounds.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
You get it?
Speaker 3 (46:18):
You can see on this spectrum of hardcore metal, heavy music.
They got it on lock and I love what they do.
So go to Evilgreed dot net. Stack up your cart.
It ships from Berlin, Germany, because that is where the
company is based. But let me litch you in on
a secret. The shipping rates to us here in the
(46:38):
United States are very advantageous because of the exchange rate.
And I've ordered from them here in California.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
It's got to me.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
In like ten days. It's incredible. They have a full
time staff ready to ship your stuff out immediately. And
plus they got Vinyl. They got a bunch of stuff
for you to put in your cart, check out and
then have it shipped you. So I love Evilgreed dot Net.
Large reporters of this podcast, and I probably all the
(47:05):
money that they spend on advertising, I just send right
back to them in the form of or ordering more
mergs from them. So it is a very uh you know,
circuitous relationship. But regardless I love evil greed dot net,
so order from them like I do.
Speaker 5 (47:19):
As you were obviously developing your jobs and taking photos
at shows and you know, learning all the things that
you were learning as you started to take photos, when
did you, I guess feel like you were quote unquote
taken seriously? I mean, I know that there's an obvious
joke there, like no one takes you seriously now, but
(47:39):
but like know me long enough that that was gonna
be my other I yes, I saw right where you're going.
But just that idea of like getting that first you know, job,
whether it was like a band paying one hundred dollars
or something like, do you have something in your mind
that kind of sticks out where it's like, oh wow,
like someone likes my vibe, like I'm excited to do this.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I've had a multitude of those in my lifetime, naming
one because that is like a fleeting feeling sure of
you know. I mean, I think like the first time
I ever had a photo printed in Real Detroit magazine,
it was of the John Spencer Blues explosion. This dude
(48:31):
Nate Cavalieri, who I'll always remember that guy because he
published the first photo I ever had in print. He
later went on to like make these fucked up cartoons
for Buddyhead before Buddyhead became the political social media power
that it is now, back when they just talked about
guns n' roses on the internet forty years ago. That
(48:56):
was a huge accomplishment. That was very cool. I feel
like I kind of made it. I don't even think
I got paid. I sent him a beat up shoe box,
big full of prints that they somehow, with the magic
of whatever technology they had, printed it. I fast forward
to last summer I was in I was in the
(49:21):
Netherlands with Dismember and Dismember was playing a festival and
I had to pee really bad, and I was shooting
the show. I was out working with them. We've been
kind of filming like some archival I'll say it this way,
archival footage over the last couple of years of Dismember
(49:44):
being pretty active again. And I was standing behind the
stage and the port bodies were so far away, and
I was like.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
I'm just gonna peep behind the stage. It's done. Nobody knows, right.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
And I was standing there and I looked up at
the sky and there's a full moon standing there ping
behind the stage. They were playing skin Her Alive or
some other fantastic song that they got in trouble for
in the early nineties the British government that tried to
get them banned, and I just kind of laughed to
(50:17):
myself of like, this is what the moon looks like
in the Netherlands while this member is playing in twenty
twenty three, right, that's fucking incredible. I'm here because of
this piece of plastic and metal that's hanging around my
neck that I've never let pretty much out of my
hand for the last twenty five years, and like that,
(50:40):
that was one of those moments, I think more than anything,
where I was like I made it. I'm here, I'm
in the Netherlands behind a stage looking up at the moon,
and I because I'm forever twelve years old, how old
at the moon? It was just like fuck it, I'm
gonna hold the moon and I'm going to go back
and finish shooting this show and hang out with those
(51:02):
dudes and document you know their legacy at this point,
which is you know, they've allowed me into their their
family and is incredible. And I've been afforded a handful
of opportunities like that with bands of like really spending
a lot of time with people, documenting them, becoming friends
(51:22):
with them, photographing our friendship. But that was something of
just like that moon in the Netherlands, in the middle
of nowhere. I know, we were like hours, a couple
hours from Amsterdam, just like in a field somewhere. It's
just like dudes dressed like Vikings everywhere, and it was
hilarious and awesome. All the nuclear blast Germans were there
(51:45):
and those dudes are all funniest shit, and it was
just like, oh, this is I'm part.
Speaker 5 (51:50):
Of this, right. It just that moment hit different than
other things.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, And I've had a handful of you know, and
like I think, especially a lot more recently where especially
during the pandemic, and just getting older, of being much
more present and recognizing things while they're happening rather than
life being nostalgic. Life is present. I have a handful
(52:20):
of photos in the Punk Rock Museum to you know,
jerk myself off here in Las Vegas, and I was
out there last Manet. Right after I saw you.
Speaker 5 (52:32):
I thought, oh, yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
So I was in California for the run as Satia shows,
and I got to hang out with you guys for a.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Little bit, which was very cool.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
And my girlfriend and I drove to Las Vegas right
after that to go to the Punk Rock Museum because
I hadn't been to Vegas in like twenty years. I'm
not particularly a big fan of that town, but I
do love UFOs, and so we went to Las Vegas
and we went to the Punk Museum, and Lou from
(53:02):
Sick of It All was giving a tour at the
mont Rocket Museum. And we walk in a room and
Lou's like talking to these people that you know, got
the guided tour by Lou from Sick of It All,
and he points this picture on the wall. I also, like,
didn't I kind of knew what work I had up
in the in there, but like I didn't, Like, I
(53:24):
hadn't seen it yet, so I didn't realize there was
like a picture of Jimmy Gestapo from Murphy's Law playing
years ago at Trash Bar in Brooklyn. It was Halloween
and they all dressed like cops with pig noses, and
he had like shaken up a beer and sprayed it
all over the crowd, and I got this great picture
of just like beer sprang out of this can all
(53:45):
over everybody and Lou like points at the picture and
he's like, that was fucking Jimmy Guestopo, Like we all
wanted to be fucking Jimmy Jay. This is my sick
of it all impression. We all wanted to be fucking
Jimmy Gestapo, Like you know, that guy changed their lives.
We all wanted to emulate him, like what or whatever.
And he's pointing at my picture and like it didn't
even dawn on me that that was mine, Like my photo. Yeah,
(54:07):
And Rachel, my girlfriend, looks at me. She's like, dude,
that's your picture. You should say something. And I was like, no, dude,
Like these people came to like fucking listen to this
dude talk, not Me'd be like, hey, I took that,
that's my picture, Gonna do that, Like I feel like
an asshole because this is also weird to me that
this guy is now referencing this other guy that was
influential enough to all of these people in this room listening,
(54:32):
and my photo is the focal point of that. I'm
just gonna kind of be pre president in this moment
and like take that shit in for what it's worth
of like I would never guess twenty five years ago
hanging out in basements watching bands play that like I
would now be watching Lou discuss my picture and why
(54:52):
it's important to him, right because of who's in that picture.
It's sucking weird.
Speaker 5 (54:58):
You know, Yeah, it's totally totally it's.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
Super fucking weird. But you know, that's one of a
handful of moments of like recognizing in the least douchey
way of saying it, like being a contemporary of versus
a fan. I mean, I'm always a fan first, but
like now I'm a contemporary of these things that I
(55:23):
grew up listening and looking at.
Speaker 5 (55:25):
Yeah, absolutely, it's it does, and I think the world flattens,
especially when you have those moments where you're just like,
oh wow, like this person you know is whatever three
to five years to seven years how many however many
years older this person is, but we are all here
for the same reason, and that is what really just yeah,
flattens your brain where you're just like what now, come on, yeah,
(55:48):
why are you talking about this? This is weird? It
is it is, Yeah, yeah, what I mean beyond the
obvious fact of you know, like pivoting to the you
know Saint this book that you lovingly put together and
you know, documented over so many years. Beyond the fact
that you know, you weren't there at one point and
you were obviously going to shows there. What do you
(56:12):
think attracted you to the idea of you know, contextualizing
this thing that was obviously uh, you know special and
a a you know, community hall for many people to
go to. Well, what kind of pushed you over the
edge to do this?
Speaker 2 (56:29):
I got really tired of looking at the black wall
that was on the north side of the building, across
from the actual bar, and I had approached the owners
at one point and I was like, there's nothing in here, man,
(56:51):
Like there's like all this ephemera and bullshit like behind
the bar, which is awesome, Like they've amassed an incredible
collection of like stuff from people that have played there
and like you know, signed records and drumsticks and whatever.
And my old roommate Jay Morris had they had put
a boatload of his show posters that he had designed
(57:13):
in the back room in the live room up around
like the top of the wall, and I was like,
why don't we do like photos or something in the
front bar room. So I printed a bunch of shit,
and like, we hung it up and we cycled through
that a couple of times of swapping workout over a
(57:35):
handful of years. And right before the pandemic, I was
feeling a little I was bored. I wanted stuff to do,
and I was feeling real frustrated with living in a
city where it is unaffordable to do anything, and unless
(57:59):
you have money and somehow are in some sort of
art community where somebody has wall space, it's really difficult
to like put on like gallery shows or be part
of gallery shows. That's not necessarily my scene. I don't
particularly care for that world. I think it's fucking gross,
(58:22):
and it's frustrating because myself and a million other people
that hang out at that bar struggle to just have
people look at our work. Social media is great for
promotion and getting your work in front of an audience,
(58:43):
but like, nothing's better than walking into a room being like,
oh hey, race, here, give you a hug, be like,
hey man, what do you think about that over there?
Take a lap with your friend, look at some stuff,
And that's sort of like personal community. Been talking with
Carolyn Harrison, who Caroline Harrison Sorry, who used to be
(59:07):
the social media and and kind of marketing person for
the bar. She's an incredible, incredible and incredible illustrator, has
had a very very very incredible career of making a
lot of band art. And I was like, look, you're
really sick. You fucking do cool shit. I do cool shit.
(59:28):
We know a bunch of people to do cool shit.
We got to put the shit on a wall somewhere
that's not at a bar where it's one night only,
because one night only opportunities are kind of a fucking
waste of time, you know, like you'd spend all this
time either printing or making work to like hang it
up for one night. So people, a bunch of people
(59:48):
can be like, oh yeah, it's awesome, but like they're
there to drink, They're not really there to like look
at your work. So we had been discussing doing kind
of like a Vitis Presents gallery situation, and I had
found a couple warehouse spaces kind of in the neighborhood
close by sort of owner George and I and had
(01:00:10):
been looking at this one spot a couple of blocks away,
and that was like mid February of twenty twenty. We
all know what happens yep.
Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
O. J.
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Simpson killed his wife and the world changed.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
And.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
As far as how people ingest media, and so take
a couple of months off and I come back around
and I'm like, hey, since this gallery thing's not going
to work, because we don't really have anywhere to go
(01:00:48):
momentarily until the world gets a shit together, why don't
we do some sort of imprint thing. And I had
initially thought about doing like a zine or something small,
and was like, you know, like one hundred pages up
buck twenty, maybe one hundred and fifty pages, and they
were like, yeah, you know, yeah, would people care? And
(01:01:10):
I was like, I don't know, you know, ten year
anniversary is coming up, because maybe a ten year anniversary thing.
So I started kind of picking away and like had
done in some preliminary interviews and like presented them and everybody,
I think at that point, like six eight months into
the pandemic of realizing like this is gonna be not
(01:01:31):
only a long lasting thing at that moment, but also
going to change global history of just everything, everybody was
on board. And I started slowly piecing together this book
again with a goal of like I was like one
hundred and fifty pages. I can do that shit like
six months. It's gonna be great. I'm gonna bang this
(01:01:52):
thing out in no time. And here we are, like
three and a half years later, it's thirty hundred and
forty four pages of like this monstrosity of something that
I I never would have imagined had grown, would have
grown because I've been like super unrealistic based on my
own lack of experience and ignorance, has grown into this
(01:02:12):
like massive archival piece of ten years of this community
center being open, you know, which is also like a
wacky testament to the pandemic kind of being a cut
off point for that because that's where we ended it.
The last show was Human Impact, which is Chris Spencer
from Unsane. That was the last show featured in the book.
(01:02:35):
It was the last show before the everything got shut down,
so that just naturally made sense. But you know, it
was really to celebrate a decade. And now here we
are at thirteen years. I think this month, I think
thirteen years next week. Okay, the place has been open,
(01:02:58):
so we're a little behind on the book, but you know,
I've never made a book.
Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
Before, so oh, it's a bug I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Right, did everything the wrong way?
Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
Right?
Speaker 5 (01:03:07):
Well, you learn that the only way you learned. Now
that's really cool. Well, I love that the idea of
being able to find a space that you not only
connect with, but then you have such a wide variety
of things that happen in that space. And I think
that what is really cool to document, you know, this
(01:03:29):
particular venue. But then also it's through the lens of
I mean, pardon the pun, but it's through the vision
of you and what this thing means to you, and
then obviously everybody else that's surrounding.
Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Yeah, sure, yeah, I sure, yeah, thanks for the compliment.
Speaker 5 (01:03:48):
Yeah, no problem.
Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
What I did not set out to do, but I
think it was pointed out to me recently is, let
me back up, part of their concern about doing the
book in the first place is like doing any sort
of like legacy piece feels like you're killing.
Speaker 5 (01:04:08):
Off right, Like it's done, was and it's done.
Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Like here's a documentary book.
Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
That topic came up in conversation with a friend recently
and they were like, you didn't make like a nostalgic thing.
You made a real time archive of a place that
is functional. Yeah, You're all you're doing is celebrating like
an era of, not the existence of And I was like,
(01:04:38):
oh shit, I didn't think about it like that. You know,
I guess like that wasn't necessarily intent, but you know,
doing something. And I think part of even finding our
archival information was harder and easier because it's so fresh, right,
(01:05:00):
fresh being like five years ago, six years ago, eight
years ago of people still have stuff, people are still
maybe in the area social media, Instagram, you know, like
all of that stuff is like much more searchable because
it still kind of exists in some sort of like cloud, cosmic, plane,
fucking whatever. Whereas if it was like twenty years from now,
(01:05:22):
how many people that ended up contributing to the book
would have their images that I found just playing Internet
detective as the Whites like to say, doing my own research, right,
looking for like pictures of ex Horter or looking for
(01:05:44):
pictures of you know, it's even silly shit like every
time I die pretty popular band YEP took me a
year and a half to find somebody with pictures. I
think they've played there twice. That's more than no times.
You'd think those totally bunch of people shot that show
for how many motherfuckers like have cameras taking pictures of
(01:06:04):
bands now, you know? And it took me a year
and a half, and there was like a handful of
those things where it's like I'm beating my head against
the wall where I'm like, why don't more people have
pictures of Anthrax? Why don't more people have pictures of
this band?
Speaker 4 (01:06:16):
You know?
Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
So even like some of the content in the book
I wanted to display, but I like simply just couldn't
find it between putting out open calls or like researching
the internet. You know. But a twenty years from now,
how much of that stuff would actually be accessible? Maybe
somebody doesn't log into their Flicker account and that disappears.
(01:06:38):
Somebody doesn't log into their Instagram. Maybe America pisses off
the wrong country and we all get nuked. I didn't
you know who knows?
Speaker 5 (01:06:46):
Yep, no, for sure. The last question, if you'll indulge
me just because I will put you on the spot
in regards to the you know, manifestation of Shoe being
somebody or something that you have not been able to
work with, that you would be like, you know what,
it would be absolutely hilarious, fun cool to you know,
(01:07:10):
shoot this as a subject. Do you have a you know,
proverbial white whale as it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Were Charles Barkley.
Speaker 5 (01:07:16):
Oh damn, that's a good one, dude. I hope you're serious,
because that's sick. Okay, dude, that would be Yeah. I
really like that for you.
Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
There's, like, I think, nostalgically, a handful of things that
you carry with you into adulthood, obviously, like music is
like for us huge. I was a massive Phoenix Suns
fan when I was a kid, and I've always been
enamored by Charles Barkley because he's just a jackass, and
(01:07:53):
I've always wanted to meet him. I've had two friends
who have met him who had like really great experiences,
which make it encouraging to me that at some point
maybe I'll get to meet Charles Barkley with him. Okay,
actually this is totally random. A couple of years ago,
I was assisting a photographer who had hired me and
(01:08:19):
I got recommended to this person through a mutual friend
and he called me and he's like, I gotta go
photograph John Fetterman, who at the time was or no
he was a governor. He had been elected governor of
Pennsylvania who was very progressive and really has pissed off
(01:08:40):
a lot of people in Pennsylvania and the country, and
he was great. Working with him was phenomenal. But the
whole point of this was I got hired by this
guy and he called me and he's like, you know,
I've got this kind of style and I was like, oh, yeah, no,
I know your work with Charles Barkley. He was just
like talking about dude. I was like, yeah, you took X,
(01:09:01):
Y and Z of Charles Parkley. I didn't know, Like
obviously I looked this dude up before I've worked for him,
but I was like, oh shit, who took these pictures
of this dude that, like, I just was fascinated by
when I was like twelve years old. And I'm still
twelve years old, so like, why would I now want
to go hang out and photograph Charles Parkley. Absolutely, he's
(01:09:21):
not a nessle.
Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
Yeah, dude, I mean the round amount of rebound is
in your I would say a good five to seven
year plan, because I mean he signed a brand new
contract for his you know, TNT show, so he's got
plenty of promo shots left in him, So I think
this will happen for you.
Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
I don't think he's completely gone fishing.
Speaker 5 (01:09:41):
No, not yet, not yet. I mean he's he's still
counting too much money. And I mean that's fine, it's great, good.
But yeah, well, well I appreciate you letting me put
on the spot for that, and I could not have
predicted that answer, but it's beautiful. Maybe maybe we can
get you Dan Marley though, that could be a good
stub to Marley.
Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Yeah, man, he went to he's from City, Michigan. He's
from my state.
Speaker 5 (01:10:02):
Oh hell, yea even better. This is great.
Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
I love it Central Michigan, King of the Outside three yep.
Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
But like as far as like musicians go, I mean, yeah,
like a more serious answer, I've been fortunate to shoot
a lot of people that, like I kind of never
really thought I would. I think also getting older, there's
more of a concern about like people being assholes. It's true,
(01:10:33):
and just kind of like, yeah, but like what if
that dude sucks, because I've had a lot of those,
and I've had a lot of like really positive experiences too,
you know, like I photographed Frank Black once, not like
like portraits but like just Frank Black and the Catholics,
and he was a fucking asshole and he yelled at
me in front of the entire crowd on the microphone,
told me to get the fuck out of his face
(01:10:55):
because I was standing in front of some young females
that I think he was looking at. And it was
a bummer because I love the Pixies, so one of
my favorite bands ever. And I was like, oh, you're
an asshole, dude. There's like other people here with cameras
shooting thirty five millimeter film because it was that long ago,
and I was like, why am I getting singled out right?
Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
Jeez dude?
Speaker 5 (01:11:15):
Well that yeah, as they say, don't meet your heroes,
but yeah, well we'll make sure Charle Sparhood is delivered
on that experience.
Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
But yeah, if you've gotten in with Charles, just tell
him you know.
Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
Yeah, we got you there, You have it, Like I said,
Saint Vitis has a book out compiling the first ten years.
Nathaniel is the author put all this thing together, obviously
in conjunction and cooperation with Saint Vitas, and it's an
incredibly important thing. So go ahead link in the show notes,
order away and enjoy once it comes to you. Thank
(01:11:48):
you Nathaniel for your time. Let's talk about next week.
Next week, I have Chris McClain, who is the vocalist
for Reunited Stretch Armstrong, an amazing hardcore band. You just
put out a new EP on Eidine Records. I wanted
to have Chris in the pod for quite some time.
Him and I have many mutual friends, we just have
never actually met until we potted together and it was
(01:12:11):
one of those things where we were, like, we both
follow each other on Instagram right like we're watching you
just children grow up and it's just it's funny. But anyways,
Chris is a great dude. Love Love Stretch Armstrong, like
Rituals of Life. That record just fundamentally changed a lot
of the way that I think about, you know, hardcore,
(01:12:31):
as far as how you can inject positivity but not
just be like a walking cliche. So anyways, that's what
I got next week. Until then, please be safe, everybody,
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.