January 16, 2023 • 56 mins
Our heroes zip rooftop to rooftop over the grim streets of Dunwall, discussing all the important questions raised by one of the most creative franchises in recent video game history. How much does this game really owe to Bioshock? Is stealth the only viable approach? Wait, Susan Sarandon is in this? Should every game consider making you lord of rats? Hop aboard, Ship Heads, this one’s a whale of a time!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How looking. Don't look now, but are heads, hands and
(00:27):
feet are slightly enlarged, which I think it's the only
notable difference between the humanoids that inhabit this dimension and
the one I'm used to. Because it's dishonored time, it
sure is. Hope you enjoy looking like a like an
oil painting. Yes, that's how we're going to look like.
I think that's on purpose. I have no comic artists who, oh, definitely,
(00:50):
because they don't do it. In death Looke Dishonored universe,
people have big hands and heads. It's like part of
the aesthetic. It's a thing. Especially it's weird, like this
weird baro vibe, like baroque cartoon vibe is going on
the whole time. And hey, if it ain't barroke, don't
fix it, and we won't. This partnership between myself, Michael
(01:11):
Swam and that man Adam Ganzer, that's what we call
one upsmanship, where we dive deep into video games to
determine whether they'll make it onto a celestial hard drive
that we're going to show it to aliens someday when
we get around to it get off our backs, or
when they take it from us. Why do we can't
they meet us halfway? Um? Maybe, but when they do
(01:32):
take it by force, they'll you'll be grateful to us
then because it will assuage their anger, we hope, because
we will have stocked the drive. You're welcome, that's right, Yeah, exactly,
you are welcome. Sound under review this week, Dishonored. Let's
see if it makes the cut. Um. I think we
can just dive in past our first checkpoint. Yeah, I
think we absolutely should. Okay, I think the analogy would
(01:55):
be that we were eaten by a swarm of terrible
play rats. Yeah, definitely. Uh my bones are literally just pacede.
Now that's all that's left. So you know, sorry, those
of you who wanted to bury me, that's all done now.
Uh do you want to take you want me to
take the tell me like I'm a bit or do
you want to do it? Uh? Go for it? Yeah,
(02:16):
so tell me like great. This first segment is just
to refresh you or let you know what the game
is all about and it's place. It's a place of
importance in video game history if you're totally unaware of it. So, adam,
what's dishonored? Dishonored is a first person action adventure game
that was created by Arcane. It's actually the first game
(02:36):
by Arcane, which is owned by Bethesda and h In it,
You're you are a We're gonna call him, I guess A,
a royal assassin figure who is improperly framed for the
assassination of the Empress of this sort of futuristic nineteenth
century bound Uh Island kingdom. UH Like. It's unclear exactly
(03:02):
how the timeline works there, but it seems to be
like the only more steam punked out that's the vibe here,
and You're You're You're improperly framed and detained for the
murder of the Empress by a bunch of people who
are clearly usurping the throne and trying to take power
for themselves. And then you're going to spend the whole
game trying to number one, free the Empress's daughter, uh
(03:24):
number two, set to rights this evil plot and free
the kingdom from these usurpers who are putting what might
be called an authoritarian strangle hold on everything. Um. That's
the game. You basically sort of slink around. It's mostly swords,
though there are pistols, and you use a I guess
we're gonna call it the powers of the Void, a
(03:45):
kind of magic that's BioShock asked to teleport places, or
to summon swarms of rats, which is always fun, or
to see people through walls, or many other powers. Uh,
combined with a little bit of swordcraft, just wizard the
fuck out of this traversal challenge and uh combat based game.
(04:07):
It is extraordinarily fun. You get really interesting bits of
dialogue and personalities and uh. The people who rescue you
from the dungeon where you start this game are also
of dubious character as the game wears on, and so
you have to figure out who exactly do you trust
at the end of the day. Is Brad Dorriff from Deadwood?
(04:29):
It's always bred in this who is trustworthy? Pure? He
really is so pure? Um, how did I do? Did
you want to add anything else? I mean, you just
forgot to do do honor to Brad Dorriff, the Great,
the one. But otherwise that's fantastic. Yeah, So let's dive
past another checkpoint, which means, oh no, we didn't get
(04:50):
devoured by that swarm of rats. We possessed one of
those rats and climbed through a sewer where a guard
saw us and killed us. So now we're dead again,
as they always do the first time. It's like come on, man,
which brings us to a segment where we call the
gamer rants. Traditionally, when we don't have a guest, we
just alternate. So I'm player one plugging in. This is
(05:11):
my rant on dishonor rants cover our more emotional take.
Uh Adam tried to confine himself to the objective, which
I appreciate, So my my take on this play through
and dishonored sort of place and the ongoing conversation of
what are games? Where can they go? What can they be?
On this play through, I was thinking a lot about
(05:33):
BioShock and a lot about Half Life. Um, BioShock, I
haven't played too too recently. If you tuned into our
Orange month October, we covered three half Life games, so
I have been playing Half Life a lot recently, and
I think the Half Life connection is a little more subtle,
hence having to have played it recently to notice, And
maybe there's some recency lensing there, But um, I do
(05:56):
feel like our cane is by some to oken, and
this is true of most art, it's true of me
too if I study my own work enough, Um, it's
more rooted in and connected to which could be you know,
you could say derivative or not innovative. But I don't
really mean it with that negative connotation. I mean it's
more firmly set into a particular game flow than I thought.
(06:19):
I thought of it as a little more unique than
it is. And I don't even mean that as a knock.
I mean like, oh, they were actually taking ideas from
BioShock and running with them or shading them, taking some
knowledge from Half Life and running with that, and blah
blah blah. And I think the unique thing they do
bring to it is they really stress to the point
(06:40):
that I actually it's funny to go back to Dishonored
one because they feel this compulsive need to teach us.
Like the game stops many times and confronts you with
a screen that says, play your way. There are multiple
ways to get through this. You could possess a rat
and climb through. You could kill everyone and go through,
but but remember you could sneak through the roofs or
(07:02):
the or you could talk to Granny Rags like They're like,
it's they feel the need to teach the player repeatedly
remember get a lot out of the game, like please
be playing the game right. And I think they felt
the need to do that because of something really cool
that they are bringing to it that is fairly unique,
which is the arcane touch. And this does carry across
(07:25):
death Loop, I think is a they're obsessed with framing
the plot through a series of assassinations. That's also what
death Loop is. But and hit Man is sort of
this as well. And I even mean to this additional degree,
which is their thing is let's tell a story. It'll
be through a series of assassinations, and very much like
hit Man, the goal is play your way. There's not
(07:47):
one way to do the assassination. Yes, it is okay
to kill everyone, cut a bloody swath up to the
person and kill them totally. But we hope you'll try
the version where you have to change clothes and being
skies and trick them into drinking poison. We hope you'll
go back and try the version where you're invisible the
whole time and your ghost no one ever even knows
you were there, and you discredit them instead of killing them. Like,
(08:10):
there's many alternate solutions to each little thing, and so
when you take like it's in it occupies to me
this unique space between UM, Half Life, BioShock, and hit Man.
It's a good mix. I think it's a unique mix.
I don't think it's like birth from whole cloth out
of nothing. I think it owes its existence to these
(08:31):
other things. But they I think they have a unique
set of interest in verve and style that does give
it a unique feel. I really had fun with it.
I think it has some wonky elements. For example, like
to me, it's almost too hard not to overuse blink.
Blink exists in all of their games, and blink is
so useful that I find myself almost falling into the
(08:52):
trap of I know I'm supposed to play anyway I want,
but I really just blink across the rooftops and then
get there and try to stealth, and when stealth falls apart,
then I murder everyone and leave. That tends to be held.
The logic breaks down, but I still admire that they
give you the option to not do that. That's on me,
I could have approached it eight different ways. I usually
(09:14):
use blank just because it's feels so cool um to
blink around like fucking Nightcrawler. Um. But I I appreciate
to such a degree the level that they carried out
player freedom, to the point that famously, in this game,
if you get the right set of skills, if a
guard shoots at you, you can freeze time, possess that guard,
(09:37):
walk around while the bullets in medair, and unpossessed them,
and watch them get shot by their own bullet. Like
that's some dead Space ship. If you listen to our
dead Space episode, we talked about giving the player unique ways,
like they allowed you to tell kinetically rip off limbs
and impale people with them possessing a dude and having
him get shot in the head by his own bullet
(09:57):
that he fired. That's a new one for me, and
like Dishonored did that, and I think it's symblematic of
what they're trying to do, which, frankly, and this will
wrap up my rant um. To me, the greatest thing
it fulfills is the promise of games like Thief. Thief
is the first game where I remember being thinking, oh
my god, I don't have to shoot everyone. I could
(10:20):
pickpocket this dude and sneak in and then shoot this
one dude and take his clothes and then shoot the guy, like,
oh my god, that's such a cool idea. Um, Thief
was the first time I encountered that, other than like
text games where there's multiple paths obviously to success but
or D and D but um, but Thief is an
(10:41):
old game and it's like Dishonored works way better. So
I do feel like it's also an important update on Thief, frankly,
and that's my the mind blowing end of my rant
brands to gains, thank you. Uh yeah, I also thought
about Thief when I was playing it. This time. I
played this like three times, which I think tells you
(11:02):
that I like it. Uh uh So. My my take
on Dishonored is that it's it's not creative in that
it's inventing new things so much as it's creative in
that it's combining things in fun new ways. One thing
that we always sort of we're all not at but
(11:23):
is I think fairly interesting, is that they chose the
setting they did, Like there's a lot of work that
is that goes into the setting they're building. And that's
true of all the arcane games, like Dunwall as a
place is very like nineteenth century industrial, but also mixed
with like a little bit of Half Life two and
(11:43):
like authoritarianism, but also mixed with yeah, and some sword
combat stuff. Like in a way I was when I
was recently playing skyrom again just for fun, and I
was like, God, I wish this game was Dishonored, you know,
I wish I wish Skyram had the the sword play
of Dishonored, which is much more fun and organic. So
(12:04):
like it's combining all those things with like matrix esque
like stopping time and whipping around and like, uh, some
traversal stuff that feels like so empowering that we've never
seen done as well in a different first person shooter.
Like the way you can get around in this game,
the kind of stuff you can do to your enemies
if you want to in this game through the use
(12:26):
of their magic slash traversal powers is immensely satisfying. Like
if you haven't played this game before you play it,
you should google like just somebody who's like a wizard
at killing people and Dishonored. There's tons of videos out
there and you will see like, holy shit, the stuff
you can do is awesome. Like it's a real technical
playground for smooth murder, which if you like that, that's
(12:49):
really cool and that somehow is not exactly at odds
with the world they've created. So it's an interesting combination
of things that feel like they shouldn't be one one
piece of media, but they are and they work, um,
and that's really cool. I think that's one of the
things that's so great about BioShock, and that's one of
the reasons that we we're tracing this back to that
(13:12):
BioShock is also a combination of things that shouldn't work,
but it's very creative. This takes that mental on and
I hope that lots of games take that mantle, like,
let's please think of interesting settings for stories and tell
interesting stories. That said, I think the assassination plot and
the who's the bad guy piece of it is a
(13:33):
little bit dry, Like you don't totally get emotionally invested
in who's who in this, like you know, portrait based
set of villains that you're gonna murder or capture or
free or whatever. So like it's a little bit tough
to get excited about who you're going to kill. And
that's a problem that a lot of these games that
are based around assassinations have like even Splinter Cell another
(13:56):
I think, uh of the ancestors of this game has
that problem, and certainly Assassin's Creed has that problem. We
don't really know the people who have set us up,
Like sure we get a cut scene with them, but
we don't care about them. And uh, I think that
is a bit of a detractor from this game in
terms of being really invested in the narrative of it. Um.
(14:17):
I don't think the people who love it are necessarily like,
my god, the history of Donewall. Do you realize what
this means? I don't think. I don't think we have
anybody who's like that passionate about that here, or if
you do, I'm surprised because I think it's not that great. Um.
I also, and this may seem like a really dumb criticism,
but one thing that really struck me this time when
I was playing it is it's very dull looking considering
(14:39):
how exciting it is. Like when you play Death Loop,
it's colorful and it's vibrant and it's interesting and engaging.
This this game is colored like it's like saving Private
Ryan in the past, Like it's all very muddy and dark,
and you know, like just rusty looking and not lit
and colored in a way that gets that's as exciting
(14:59):
as the ideas are. I think this game could honestly
use a remake that's just a sort of a new
code of paint on it, and it would really make
a difference for how engaged people felt with it. I'm
not kidding. I really believe that. I really believe we
could use some sort of vibrancy here that matches the
excitement of this premise and of this execution. Um. I
(15:20):
think the world is more interesting than it is great,
but I still like it. Like, I don't think it's
as thought out as Rapture is. I think we it
could use more layers of sort of not people, but
sort of like why is the world like this? Where
exactly are we? Like? That stuff is a little bit
more backgrounded here, um, and we could use more of
it if you want us to care about the franchise
(15:42):
as a whole. And I think that even about the sequel. Um.
But that said, the powers they give you are even
though their BioShock ask, they're unique and they're so fun
to use, and uh, if you're measuring a game based
on fund this is one of the most fun games
in the last ten years. In my like, it's a
really fun game, a really fun franchise. I think Kane
(16:05):
can continue to make games in this franchise for decades
and we would be thrilled. And that is my rant. Yeah,
I have luck in Pendil Center. Like nothing, they're just
not You're just not like, oh, I can't wait to
get those foks Like it's like I feel like as
the story guy. Man, I'm upset with myself for not
having called that out. But you're absolutely right, uh. I
(16:28):
think we always have to give credit to people who
are presenting whole cloth new world fantasy worlds that are
brand new franchise. You haven't been to Rapture before, you
haven't been to don Wall before. Um. I think that's
why it's like big points for putting together a world.
And I think that's why you got so excited about
the gameplay ideas, because the story wasn't engaging enough for
(16:51):
you to get excited about it, you know what I mean. Like,
I think that's kind of telling in its own way.
But before we, you know, do our full frontal list
halt on the gates of Dunwall, shall we hop to
a couple of commercials and gather ourselves and the commercials
will be the version as we sneak in. Of course. Yeah,
by the way, nice mask. I like what you're wearing.
(17:13):
This is my face? What a funk up thing to say,
And we're back. We worked out that unpleasantness. Um, well
is your face Simply we mistook my face for a
hideous mask. I'll get over it in time, or stab
(17:37):
me in the neck with his short sword, but that
would passed another checkpoint. So uh, and improbably precariously built
tall boy has just handed us our ass and we've
been forced to, I don't know, take a boat ride
with Samuel, as they say into the segment called game On.
(17:59):
And I'm also whimsical of all the whimsical batties the
tall boys, just like, Yeah, it's like dudes on stilts
with like rockets and ships. So this is the end.
It's the enemy equivalent of like Homer riding the bicycle
with the big wheel to the ice cream social. Yeah,
they're these dudes who, somehow I guess are to be
(18:21):
feared because they're on giant robots stilts, which I guess
makes it easier to spot you. But I don't and
and then yes they kill you. I did they like
lash these weird things out at you that fucking destroy
you in a second. But I mean just in real
life those things would be But is the game has
(18:44):
a tone. I fully accept that, and I accept that
from Arcane and death Loop Death Loop is uh yeah,
they they live in a cartoon asque physics reality. Um,
they're definitely more concerned with look at that cool thing
we made up than Uh. They're not the bants if
that registers for anyone. They're not trying to be like, no,
this could really work, Like let's bring this out. They're
(19:06):
like no, no, no, no, no no no. Here's like an
old timey, you know, bailiff type guy like should be
a Keystone cop trolling around London, but he's in a
giant metal stilt machine. Uh. And I love how everything's
powered by whale oil. I do like the details they
do have, um their unique Like they have these walls
of light that you can reprogram so that they'll only
(19:28):
kill enemies and not you. That's walk him into him,
trick him into their throw him into their like and
said staggering emergent complexity in terms of how are we
going to kill this dude. It also rewards curiosity and
experimentation in that way. And that's like, I feel like,
if you're going to create a murder playground, which a
(19:49):
lot of first person shooters are, um, you know, or
the Grand Theft Auto of the world, you want to
you want the game to have anticipated the kind of
stuff you do and reward you with like funny animations
and stuff. And this game does not disappoint on that front.
Like it's it's extremely rewarding to try new ways to
kill people, and it's it's great. Like honestly, you can
(20:11):
have a fun afternoon redoing a level over and over
with coming up with unique ways to kill people and
it would be fun. Right, Like I like, I haven't
tried that because that doesn't appeal to me, but I
think those of you who it does appeal to you'll
have fun. Give it a shot. Murder Away, friends, this
is your playground. Um yeah, man, But if you haven't,
you have played. I do just want to call out
(20:32):
the stuff that occurred to me this time. Maybe it's
obvious to others, but I was like, oh, this is
totally a responsive BioShock in the form of the story
is told through audiograph players, which in their world are
like very funny but cute to me. Again, same aesthetic, right, stupid,
not practical, but a funny idea. Their computer punch cards
that go through some kind of typewriter and noise comes out. Um,
(20:55):
that is not how noise. Noise cannot be recorded easily
on a gritted punch car. But anyway, it's like a
it's like a player piano card. That's what it looks like.
It's the same as an audiologue from BioShock. Um. The
scrounging is identical to BioShock. Right. One hand is your sword,
one hands your powers, and down to the detail of
like you have a mark on your hand that represents
(21:16):
that you have magic powers, just like BioShock infinite. Um.
So I don't think there's shy about that, and actually
it's on me for not noticing it before. But I
think they added something that BioShock truly doesn't have and
only just hinted at, Like when you're in rapture. The
cool thing was the sort of a the deformed. So
that's something else they left from BioShock. Right, everyone, you
(21:38):
you're sort of in this mildly depopulated environment in this
case because of a plague, and all the characters you
meet are twisted or haunted or broken in some way.
That's very rapture. Um Uh but uh rapture The cool
thing they're mechanically, I thought, and I think a lot
of people felt was the minimal But they're ghost system
(22:00):
because you had big daddies who had a goal of
siphoning this energy from corpses and the and they guarded
little sisters who they needed to help them siphon the energy.
And you could kill the big daddy and save the
little sister, and every time it was a moral decision
spare or kill the little sister that would up you
rpg blah blah blah blah blah, And then our knees like, okay,
so all that stuff, but our twist is different. Our
(22:23):
twist is thief essentially. Um. But I really think it
all pairs nicely. Uh. Where it falls down to me
as I would love to talk about No, no, no,
I'll say, well, let's keep talking about the good mechanics stuff.
So it's it's not It's okay, it's not Assassin's creed,
(22:45):
though in the it really isn't a bustling metropolis and
like so like a lot of the thief stuff that
already was pretty like well established, they didn't do. Like
you can't sneak into crowds, you know, like and you
can't like high and bushes and stuff like you really,
it really is you navigating a terrain of people who
(23:05):
are going to attack you. With like rare exceptions of
n pcso you can dialogue with, but mostly everyone you
run into is an enemy here. And I think that
makes it that makes you do more what you were
saying in your rant, and I wanted to agree with you.
It really does push you in the direction if you
need to stealth this because like, sure you can murder everybody,
(23:28):
but like, but it really is designed to stealth. Um
that is the primary gameplay or do some of the workarounds,
like they want you to do poison and they want
you to do the side quest stuff of course, right,
and you won't do them if you're not going to
play itself. Like so ultimately, even though sure you can,
(23:48):
you know, make this a bloodbath, if you don't play itself,
you're not really playing the game the way they designed it.
You know, they would have object to that, but it's
but it's a self game, like, that's really what it is.
In fact, I would if you listen to death episode
I believe we talked about one of the grapes. A
lot of people I know who played with played that
hat is the final mission, the house party. Almost everyone
(24:10):
I know eventually beat by just finding a corner where
you had a really good cover, shotting everyone in the
whole house as they ran upstairs. Because to stealth it
was so intricately difficult that it became frustrating. Actually think
Dishonored has a perfect balance of the stealth feels empowering
but not fully. You can still funk up like I
got caught, but I also felt like I was good
(24:32):
at it. I was fair. It feels extremely triple A
and like the first developer, it feels so smooth and snappy,
and the physics feel good. It feels right, I like.
I also don't want to neglect the actual craftsmanship of
the work being done by the animators and the programmers
and whoever is interacting with the engine. Another thing about
(24:52):
Arcane is they feel good. The games feel quality. I
think I think they are the best feeling for movement
in that in the first person shooter Space, although I
couldn't help but thinking while playing this, what I really
want is a game that has the sort of park
core of Mirror Is You're Dying Light, but with Blank.
I want Blank and the complex park courses. I think
(25:15):
we're one game away from that. I think Arcane is
going to make that game. Like I have a lot
of faith in this developer because even though I don't know,
I don't like everything they do in terms of like
every piece of their execution, what they do well, they hit,
they hit it out of the park, Yes, and I
think that's true. Death Loop, you are essentially just a
(25:36):
block and when you jump, you go up and down.
In an arc I would love that procedural park course
ship to start entering the equation I got tight and
fall Ship well. And again just to comment briefly on
Death Loop too, because Death Loop is their most recent game,
and you can see that it's an extension of this
idea like Dishonored, Uh, Death Loop is I think, in
(25:57):
some ways trying to solve the thinness of the universe
with like layers and layers and layers of lore and
just like a little bit style, yes, and a little
bit like just a bunch of layers of like, who
is this person, let's go investigate, so like they really
shove your nose in the story for better for worse,
and I feel like that might be a response to
(26:19):
the positivity that people felt about Dishonored, but but also
the fact that dishonored story is like pretty minimal. Even
Dishonored to the story is pretty minimal. It's really just
a guy's to let you sword dudes to death and
call rats down on them, you know. Uh. I think
death Loop is a response to it, and as a result,
having recently replayed Death Loop, it's not as fun to
(26:41):
replay because it's trying to hook you in the story,
but once you know it, it's there's no discovery there.
I did find the targets in definitely much more like
fully painted and memorable than the targets and dish and Dishonored.
It's like, kill this generic uh steam guy, and then
the next mission is like kill this generic steampunk woman.
(27:03):
The next one's like, now they're twins killed too, generic
steampunk guys like uh, definitely definitely advanced the cause of
the big bads being more recognizable and differentiable, but a
great move for our game, I agree, but weirdly because
the that game was so focused on making you absorb
the world, it's less replayable, I would say. And also
(27:25):
because yeah, I couldn't. Well I tried, and I was like, oh,
I'm not as excited about this. I need to wait
until I've forgotten it to replay it. The puzzle, well,
it's also unique, definitely, and we should stick more to
the well because now you know what I'm saying. But
death loops also a unique clockwork puzzle, which Dishonored is not.
Where once you know it, it's hard to unknow it
(27:46):
till maybe you let ten years go by and you
genuinely forget it and play it again. But it has
that aspect which Dishonored is not. It's a linear thing. Um.
What I will say about Dishonored the other huge gameplay
thing that I think can be under respect and it
is not true of Half Life, and it's not true
of BioShock, and is was supposed to be true of
mass effects but isn't really. Um, Dishonored actually does and
(28:09):
it's in a interestingly you could argue minimal way, because
I think it's just changes sort of certain enemy spawn
points and things like that, and some of the plot details.
But I love that early on in this game, not
at the beginning, which is a detail I love as well,
but like two levels in they tell you, by the way,
there's such a thing as chaos, and it determines like
(28:30):
it's how stealthy you are, how many guards you killed,
how many times you got spotted, and how ruthless you
are with your moral decisions. And just so you know,
high chaos will affect the final mission of the game,
and low chaos will also, So like when you get
to the final mission, it's called whatever, but then in
parentheses it says low chaos version, middle chaos version, or
(28:51):
high chas version. I think that's really cool. And it
also affects the actual outcomes in a basic way, but
that's enough for me, Like I still think that's dope.
So like, if you have low chaos, the level plays
as pretty much as intended, and you're a hero and
you save the princess and all this. Well, if you
play with high chaos, it becomes it's just like, what
(29:14):
genre do you want it to be? Basically, if you
do it with high chaos, then the final mission features
way more zombies and rats. People are much like the
npcies are dead and dying. Things are bleak, and at
the end of the story, the vibe is more like, Wow,
I mean, you got the throne back, but everyone's pretty
shocked by how much you fucking murdered everyone, and all
(29:35):
of our economy is disrupted, etcetera, etcetera. And even the
princess is like I fear you now, like I respect you,
but I fear you, And it's like a very different cast, right.
I just thought they nailed the promise of play your way,
the important second beat in that for a satisfaction loop
for a user has got to be and that has
(29:56):
an effect, right, like play your way should be unerstand
by some judgment scale at the end, and they did
that satisfactorily. To me, play your Way actually impacts the
ending in a meaningful way. And I and also again
created a more replayable game, like I like, I really
think that's a feature of this game that is not
true of a lot of story based first person shooters,
(30:19):
Like this is a game that playing it different ways
is fun to do, and they spent the time and
energy to make that true. Now because of that, the
game is a little simpler then, like some of its
like compatriots, like there's not I don't I don't know
how many levels are. I think it's eight or something
like that, but they're not immensely complicated, right, They're they're
(30:39):
very like this game takes like ten to twelve hours
to play, and it feels a little short when in
sixty minutes, I'm sure easily He's like if you don't
kill people, especially like you and you're really times and
you just zip up there and kill them and leave. Yeah,
So like a little bit in using this comparison very gently,
a little bit like Breath of the Wild. It's sort
of built out for you to do as much or
(31:02):
as little of this as you want. Like they're they're
more serious about the playground than they are about the story,
but they cared enough to satisfactorily wrap up the story.
And also that even contributed to the replayability. The more
I think about, the more I think this game was
designed like primarily around loops and like enjoying new kinds
(31:23):
of loops, and less about the setting, even though I
think people's take away from the game is how cool
the setting and magic and stuff is. You know what
I mean, Like that feels ancillary to me the more
I think about it, But I love success. Hurdy Gurdy's
in their chest. That silence is your magic. What a
cool idea? Exactly no sense, but it's cool. Yeah, I mean,
(31:43):
I know they didn't invent the concept of teleporting and stuff, right,
but can you think of a game that does it
better than this game? That does zipping around a matt
better than this game? It's the first person well, Neon
White is the only one I can think of, which
is moderation is built holy a round. It's a truversal
puzzle game. This is like an open world game of
(32:04):
characters and you know, assassinations and ships. So I think
this is more impressive that blank works in this context,
and it's so satisfying. I mean, that's I mean, maybe
that's the problem with it. When you're that you're saying earlier, right,
so you're like, I fell into the trap of blinking
all the time. It's I would say, I use blink
more than I use my sword. Like I just absolute
(32:25):
people spot me. I just blink up onto the roof
and wait for them to not spot me. You know.
It's like you can always blink. They're also really generous
with like especially once you get one or two upgrades.
They're really generous about when you get discovered versus when
you don't. You know, like if that's one of those
key ingredients with stealth games is like sort of what
is the line of discovery? And like how how good
(32:46):
is their presivative? Is their peripheral vision? What's the tone set? Like? Yeah,
and this game feels like it's designed in a way
that is fun but still tonally consistent with the badass
you want to be. You know, it's funny that it
takes someone of full three seconds to realize they're seeing you,
so you have time to escape, which is great, it
(33:08):
makes the game more fun. But the idea that someone
sees you and goes is that you is that you? Oh,
I guess it's not because they moved out of my
field of view is hilarious and not you know, or
like the idea that and this is true of most
health games. Uh, they'll hear you if you take any action,
but like you can open and close doors that are
(33:28):
right by them and they don't notice the sound that yeah,
I mean, but also in it's always tilted in a
way that makes it fun first, right, yeah, yeah. And
another thing that's cool about this is that the world
does the world is not just structured in a way
that's antagonistic to the player, like like if enemies make
(33:51):
decisions like passing through the wall of light and they're
not supposed to and you've geared it the wrong way,
or like shooting it, shooting in the direction of other enemies,
like it hurts them. Stuff that. Like, it's my favorite
stuff about from soft games, right, is when you can
get the enemies send up fighting each other by accident,
you know, I mean, like they have stuff like that
in this game, so you can do more almost like
strategy kinds of ways to play the game. In fact,
(34:13):
there's a lot of little puzzles that are designed around
how can you make the enemies kill themselves? And it's great.
There's a thing I have I don't even think hit
Man has, which is that even though you're doing a
series of set pieces essentially, and you're encouraged to think
of them as separate vignettes, because they want you to
replay them and go, like like the game menu is
(34:34):
designed around you want to do Level three again? Do it? Man?
Or you want to do level four with a different
goal in mind, go for it um but unlike and
hit Man is like that. But unlike hit Man, there
are side quests and death Loop doesn't do this either,
that are not advancing, like obviously there's multiple ways to
(34:55):
end up killing your target, but there's also side quests
unrelated too, like a thread that resolves and ends that
is a little mini story, a true side quest that
doesn't advance the assassination thing that it happens in the
that you can do or not do an optional side quest.
And what's amazing to me is some of them even there,
(35:16):
there are follow up beats in later levels, like the
structure of that is so cool to me, meaning incidentally, well,
on my way to assassinate so and so, I met
these lovers who are being split up by whatever, blah
blah blah, and I made this moral decision. I killed
a guard and saved them. Then in the next level
I see them being happy and prospering because time has advanced.
(35:40):
Little touches like that, that's cool. Fall are like hit Man,
which is the same structure, doesn't do that. That's that's
unique to me. They're fully contained side quests within the
assassination quests. Hit Man doesn't take itself as seriously as
Dishonored does well, and yet the mass grade level of
Dishonors very hit manny, right, It's I mean, they share
so many mechanics that I'm so glad you brought them
(36:02):
up because the hit Man, like hit Man, will occasionally
lapse into like wouldn't it be funny if I could
be a mascot and kill this guy with a baseball?
You know what I mean? Like that kind of that
kind of ship, right, right, right, Like like here are
funny ways to do it, right, and like it really
is a playground of what stuff to the developer, I
think to do, and actually going in and shooting somebody
(36:22):
is not that fun and hit Man, in fact, it's
usually a big pain in the ass. Dishonored is scaled
enough that like they don't give you as many options, right,
and they're not as silly, but every one of them
is good and impacts the story and what happens in
later levels in a meaningful way. So like it really
feels even though it's a smaller box, like it's all
(36:43):
very tightly intricately wound, and that's pretty impressive, you know, like,
I find that impressive. By the way, did you look
at the fucking cast that they got for Dishonored? The
act Whenever I see the name Brad du If, I
become unconscious for the next like to twelve minutes, as
I exist in a state of pure rapture, of pure
(37:05):
bro Well, first of all, I know that about you,
and I love that about you. Here are some other
actors that are in Dishonored. But bear in mind, of course,
this was not a known developer, so I don't know
how they did this. But Lena Hetty isn't dishonored, Chloe
Grace Moretz isn't dishonored, Michael Madison isn't dishonored, Carrie Fisher
isn't dishonored, and uh, Susan Sarandon plays Granny REGs. Yeah,
(37:29):
she plays gans. I recognized that that was Susan fucking
That's what I'm saying. Is anything good death Loup actually
leans more towards hit Man with the kills because there
are funny ones like little bit if you convince him
to do an open mic night and then the mic
shocks him to death and ship like that. But um,
dishonored is more grounded, where it's like, well, you could
kill the guy or you can discredit him in the
(37:53):
court of public opinion. That's some more grounded options, right
than hit Man or Definitely definitely, but I think Granny
Rags is probably thus stand out side quest in the
sense that you can if you engage with Granny Rags,
who I it's mind blowing to me that that's Susan
Surrian And um, you can have a multibeat over the
(38:13):
course of like maybe four of the seven missions thing
where you keep encountering Granny Rags and you either do
her bidding or resist helping her, and you are very
much like, what's the deal with Granny Rags? And if
you try to kill her, she explodes into a cloud
of rats and you're like, what does that mean? Um,
so there's this whole and you what I love is
(38:34):
you never have to meet Granny Rags at all. You
have to go out of your way to have that
whole subplot. Um the kind of confidence that they have
to actually build out. Like we recently covered a Wolf
among Us and talked about how there's an illusion to
a degree, there's like we want it to be a
(38:55):
choose your own adventure story where you can choose anything,
because that's the promise of video games. But it's me
you can't choose anything. A lot of the decisions monkey
fist back to the original path the story was gonna
blah blah blah anyway. Um, I would say, as far
as that storytelling problem goes, Arcane put in more work
than they needed to and did a better job than
most at creating a world so expansive in the content,
(39:18):
not like I don't mean like it's the biggest video
game map ever made, like Skyrim was in the day,
but I mean expansive enough given the context of what
the game is, that there's more than they're needed to be.
You can wander very far off the beaten path and
encounter a bunch of stuff that feels like extra content,
which is a really cool thing and that they built
(39:39):
out more successfully and dishonored to like I feel like
dishonored too. Most of the missions have some secondary flavor,
like a character or a quest or something that adds
to the emotional context, which is why narratively it's a
little bit better than one. Um. By the way the
Granny Rag story ends up resolving with the other major
(40:00):
side character. I would say there's two and it's Granny
Rags and slack Jaw and slack Jaws cool, and he
represents another aspect of society here, right, like the sort
of the crime element that's organized, but more like the
peaky blinders like working and crime out of desperation. I
feed the poor by by bending the law. Yeah. Well,
(40:21):
and they're sort of both. They both represent the oppressed
in somewhere or the other side if they're good or bad.
And that's fun. Right again, a thing we didn't need
that you're you know, you're not like you're interested in it,
but not necessarily like, oh, I really need to find
out what happens to Granny Rags and slack Jaw. But
they really tied that together, well, I thought, with the
(40:41):
choice to save one or the other at the end.
Uh spoilers, sorry if you you know, but that's how
we do with this podcast. You have to side with
one or the other. You have to side with one
the other. That's right. Um, can okay? Can we I'm
just looking at the clock. I feel like it's a
good time. Okay. Can we talk about the story? Yeah?
Because that's run of the most great. Well, I think
(41:02):
it sucks the world and vibe is great. But to me,
story means you know what I mean, but just it
would be clear. I mean the the velocity what's it
called where you actually have the vertex anyway navigation, the
character's navigation through the world. Right, I can love the
(41:24):
world and blah blah blah, and still the stories week
and I just mean down to points like, um, they
torture you at the beginning to try and get a
false confession out of you. Um. Then they excuse a
guard from the room in order to sweadily discuss their
plan and deed like this opens. This story opens with
(41:45):
the James Bond villain telling you, we're framing you, motherfucker.
We knew we are doing all this because of this reason.
Why would they get confirmation? And then also as that
scene wraps up, they talk to each other and imply
that it was just chance that you were there that day.
They go like, it's lucky for us he was here today.
We can use him as a patsy. Then what was
(42:07):
their plan before the whole plan is that they need
a patsy? Why would the writers make it so that
it was mere chance you showed up. They should have
known that you were going to be there on that day,
and that's why it is that day. Um, I'll be done,
but I want to rattle them all off at once.
Show the preponderance of bullshit. UM a classic one, but
I level it at any story where I encounter it. Emily,
(42:30):
the princess you're trying to save, incredibly calm and well
adjusted as she witnesses the murder of her mother, is
held hostage against her will in a brothel after a
lifetime of living in luxury, then is immediately told by
some strange woman she's never met, High'm Callissa. I'll be
taking care of you now, and goes okay by Corvo,
I'm going with Callissa's a doll, She's not anything, and
(42:54):
that bothers me. Um. The plot is mostly people repeating
the stakes to you, like even Brad Dorriff. Most of
the dialogue is one of three things. Corvo, you're the
only one who can do this. To this must be
done or don Donwall will be fucked. Three they fucked you.
I'm sorry. When you've been dishonored. Did you see the
(43:16):
title of the game. You're dishonored? Um, like four fun
that guy, and then again at the end. The big
twist of Act two to three is because this was
a classic of the time and still is in some games.
But I think we're losing it a bit right. Games
used to be like we love saying the game's wrapping
(43:38):
up now and then go, surprise, there's three more levels,
because we like to feel oversatisfied by our games, so
the game feels like it's wrapping up. And then I
would argue for very weak reasons that are kind of
glossed over, like, well, every man longs for power when
he gets that close to the throne. I don't know, really,
when there's a magic ninja who you know, could slit
(43:58):
your throat at any second ups in you, I don't know.
But anyway, the guys who were supporting you the whole
time are like, you know what, that was a good plan.
The previous bad guys who we just killed also use Corvos. Yeah,
fuck Carvo, let's use him as just let's just shift
over and inhabit the plan that the original bad guys
(44:19):
have and let's discuss the details of that plan, which
we already know over Corvo's body. Well, he's unconscious, and
it turns out, of course he's not unconscious, he's listening.
But I don't understand. There's this major scene where they
poison Corvo and they lay him in bed, and then
they stand there and they literally say ship like, as
(44:39):
you know, we're gonna blame Corbo for this. That's right,
we're betraying him. Okay, just so we're all clear, we're
betraying Corvo. He's the patsy. If he wakes up, he'll
kill us. But he won't wake up. Would let's go um?
So it's just like when we hold it up to
the scrutiny that we do try to on this show,
this stories pretty shoddy. So I think is the fair word?
(45:04):
Can I say? I like, I think you're right about everyone,
Like all those beats are problematic in the cracked sense
of it, where it's like the logic behind this doesn't
really make sense. I think we would forgive it if
we were invested enough in the world and characters before
the plot started, you know what I mean, Like like
(45:25):
this is a movie or not a movie, excuse me,
a game that's missing the first sequence of a movie
where you're like, and here's Corvo at Home and Dunwall
and here's how Wales go and here's his friend the Empress,
you know what I mean? Like that kind of stuff
that in movies is about training you what the world
is like. We don't have that in this game. And
they did that because they wanted to be exciting, But
(45:45):
consequently they're constantly having to explain to you how the
world works and how this plot works. So you're never
emotionally invested in the overarching plan to save Corvo's reputation.
You're never invested in that. You're also never invested in
these guys who are rescuing you because you're still like
and who are they? And what are their titles? Mean? Like,
you're just not grounding enough in it to care. I
(46:09):
have a suspicion that if you were that some of
those problem most of those problems would be satisfied, or
you wouldn't think about them, you know, uh, Like, I mean,
you and I are screenwriters, so like we're constantly debating
what stuff is are people gonna notice? And not? I
think those plot holes would disappear if I understood the
world a little better. Do you disagree with that? Every
(46:30):
writer faces the challenge with a world that has to
be explained. Anytime it's not present day, it's set in
the world, you just recognize the normal world. Anytime you
deviate from that, right, you have to get information to
your viewers that the people living in that world already know.
And this is called exposition. Every writer has to find
a way too, as gracefully as they can cram through it.
(46:53):
And I would just say, there's a wide spectrum. Some
people do it so elegantly that it ceases to be exquisite.
It's like I was learning revealing things about the character
through understanding the laws of the world. Great to that level. Um,
So no, they're not alone. In many movies and TV shows,
even ones I like, I'll forgive or I'll go like,
(47:15):
well that was the exposition scene. You gotta whip it
out and get through it, right, um and I'll just go.
But the rest of the movie kicked ask So therefore,
blah blah blah, we kind of needed one up top
here that the plague and how it tied to Jesse
mettal whatever. Like, I don't think like even though we're
adding the information, like I understand the information, were never
(47:38):
given it at a place where we can care about
it later we're given it where we needed to even
comprehend the like the next the point of the next level,
right Like, I would say, the only character that you
get emotionally attached to in this game is Samuel the
boating guy, right well, just by virtue of the fact
that he's constantly telling you how great you are and
(47:58):
that you're a good man what and that he no
but that he has emotions and that he's part of this,
like he's a little bit afraid of what's going to happen,
and that they do a little twist with him and
I that really makes a difference. I think the rest
of it's kind of I mean, you know, I get
a little bit bread dirt because of the dirt of
it all. But you know, but Piero is not an
(48:19):
interesting character. He's okay, yeah, he's all right, you know,
um yeah again. My problem is they don't say stuff
about They never Pierre On Sokolov, don't say stuff like
Samuel does, which is this is how I relate to
the world or the situation or the themes, this is
what's unique to my character, that makes me a character.
They only say stuff like we're all counting on you, Corvo,
(48:41):
Do you need me to construct any science for you?
You know, they're just functionaries. Basically, these mind traps were
invented by me, not Socolove. Socolove, I enjoy how much
they all hates. I guess the only the only depth
of their character development is that they have a rivalry
with each other. That's about it, right, Well, I kind
of like this. Socol Love as a character is basically
(49:02):
just like nine Aristotle, like he can He's just great
at everything and entirely dislikable. Uh. Anyway, it sounds like
maybe we're time. It's time for us to sharpen our
blades and get ready for our final assault. So let's
dive into the boat and take the long trip across
the ad break to the distant shore. All right, Samuel,
(49:31):
you wait here. We're gonna go keep her delete you
fucking move, or we will stab you. Have you seen
what we've been doing? Stab Damuel? You keep this boat idling?
I will be back. Do you see those rats all
staring at you in unison? I'm controlling they know what
to do if you try to do I am controlling them. Uh. Yes,
(49:51):
I guess we're about ready to pass our final checkpoint
and decide does this game get kept or deleted? From
this out in the flooded district, I mean, yeah, who
goes first? I feel like I always make you go first.
You want me to go first? I was gonna I
was going to use that argument and try to make
(50:11):
you go first. Um boy, I gotta tell you. I,
um this one's really on the edge for me. Uh God,
I feel like I I feel like it does make
sense to keep this, but I we've kept two bioshocks
right right from Infinite and BioShock one after some debate, right,
(50:38):
I never really come prepared with a encyclice. No, No,
it's on a spreadsheet I can load up. I don't
think that. I really don't think there is a smoother
uh cocktail of movement and magic Like I think this
game is fun to the max on that front and
on the murder front. Uh. And I think like mechanically
(51:01):
it deserves to be kept. So I'm gonna keep it.
But if you deleted, my heart would not be sunk.
But I do think it rises to the level of
being kept because it's that good. What say you, sir?
I don't I'm deleting it. Um, and it's not far
from the line, but it's not on the line. I
(51:22):
can say that and be like, Yeah, that's my decision.
I believe in my heart that Arcane will make the drive.
Um but I don't. They only have three games out, Like,
I don't need them to make it now. I hope
I don't regret that decision or they like disband and
this was all we had to judge them by. Because
I do think Dishonored is great. The world is great,
the moves are great. I might even keep Dishonored too,
(51:44):
because usually in video game franchise two is the one
where you really have your legs under you and have
sharpened your your process. Um, but I just don't. I
I usually keep on this show. I keep stuff that
is either hits equally at all levels gameplay story blah
(52:05):
blah blah is for some reason especially just has one
facet that blows me away, like the story of Last
of Us versus other elements of it that are like debatable,
but the story you know is unparalleled or what have you?
Um Or a game that I think is so important
to the chain of video game dialectic that like it's
(52:27):
mechanically important like I'll grant you your Mario super Mario
worlds and what have you, right, um, And I think
that this is firmly in the flow of video game conversation,
as I outlined in my rant. Um, I think it
hits fine on most levels, really well on one or
two levels, brings some innovation, but not the most innovation ever.
(52:51):
And there's also just this feeling of like glow. I
don't know. When I think of games, very few have
this like glow around them, and those are the ones
I keep. And this doesn't have the glove to me,
which I realize is so subjective. But I believe Arcane
will make the drive. I do think Arcane will make
the Drive. I think dishonor Too has a really good chance.
I think Arcane as a developer is doing some of
(53:12):
the best work. Um. I do want to go back briefly.
Do you agree that this game is a little bit drab? Like?
It really hit me? Thus, I know I made that
point in my rant, and we didn't talk about it much.
I love show like that, so like this also reminds
me of a game I bring up way more than
it deserves to be brought up, because it's objectively like,
but Sunless s Guys is a Victorian London Trains space game.
(53:35):
It's like Dunwall aesthetic, and I love that aesthetic. I'm
into it. I'm into it being drabbing, creepy if it's
well written. I liked the oil painting nous of it,
and it definitely fit in that respect. But Dishonor too
as I remember it moved away. I think is a
little brighter, and I also would say that, um, for
my money, like Death Loop is a greater accomplishment in
(53:57):
terms of style. It's bold are to bring back in
the salt bass look and that funky seventies yellow brown orange.
It was cool. Death Loop was quite a classy like
walk into the room and fucking lay that onto the table.
It was impactful, I thought. I agree, but the opening
teasers and trailers that dropped were really exciting. They were awesome.
(54:20):
I think Desandered is a better game, though I agree.
I'm just talking about purely at a style points level.
Death Loop. Really yeah, they moved away from this aesthetic generally,
which you know, maybe it's just all narrative, but I
think that was good. Like I like the aesthetic, but
I think it does kind of hold the game back
just a little bit. Anyway, I guess we're gonna set
(54:43):
sail after having burnt done wall to the ground dead wall.
That's said. Anyway, enjoy the ash and rats all of
you who are left behind, and we'll see you next time.
It was a great chat anyway. Yeah. If you like
us really muddily stepping over each other's lines because Adam
forgot that I have to do the plug I forgot,
(55:04):
you can find us doing that all the time over
at patreon dot com slash small beans, where we'd really
love to have you. We have a ton of other
shows where we talk about movies, pop culture, TV, multi
versus friendship, whole wide range of things, Um Spielberg movies,
(55:25):
the art of directing, Star Trek, the next Generation Future,
the works of Stephen King, on and on and on again.
That's patreon dot com slash small beans or just search
small Beans wherever you get your podcasts. Otherwise, stay tuned
for another one upsmanship next week. We're complete
How looking. Don't look now, but are heads, hands and
(00:27):
feet are slightly enlarged, which I think it's the only
notable difference between the humanoids that inhabit this dimension and
the one I'm used to. Because it's dishonored time, it
sure is. Hope you enjoy looking like a like an
oil painting. Yes, that's how we're going to look like.
I think that's on purpose. I have no comic artists who, oh, definitely,
(00:50):
because they don't do it. In death Looke Dishonored universe,
people have big hands and heads. It's like part of
the aesthetic. It's a thing. Especially it's weird, like this
weird baro vibe, like baroque cartoon vibe is going on
the whole time. And hey, if it ain't barroke, don't
fix it, and we won't. This partnership between myself, Michael
(01:11):
Swam and that man Adam Ganzer, that's what we call
one upsmanship, where we dive deep into video games to
determine whether they'll make it onto a celestial hard drive
that we're going to show it to aliens someday when
we get around to it get off our backs, or
when they take it from us. Why do we can't
they meet us halfway? Um? Maybe, but when they do
(01:32):
take it by force, they'll you'll be grateful to us
then because it will assuage their anger, we hope, because
we will have stocked the drive. You're welcome, that's right, Yeah, exactly,
you are welcome. Sound under review this week, Dishonored. Let's
see if it makes the cut. Um. I think we
can just dive in past our first checkpoint. Yeah, I
think we absolutely should. Okay, I think the analogy would
(01:55):
be that we were eaten by a swarm of terrible
play rats. Yeah, definitely. Uh my bones are literally just pacede.
Now that's all that's left. So you know, sorry, those
of you who wanted to bury me, that's all done now.
Uh do you want to take you want me to
take the tell me like I'm a bit or do
you want to do it? Uh? Go for it? Yeah,
(02:16):
so tell me like great. This first segment is just
to refresh you or let you know what the game
is all about and it's place. It's a place of
importance in video game history if you're totally unaware of it. So, adam,
what's dishonored? Dishonored is a first person action adventure game
that was created by Arcane. It's actually the first game
(02:36):
by Arcane, which is owned by Bethesda and h In it,
You're you are a We're gonna call him, I guess A,
a royal assassin figure who is improperly framed for the
assassination of the Empress of this sort of futuristic nineteenth
century bound Uh Island kingdom. UH Like. It's unclear exactly
(03:02):
how the timeline works there, but it seems to be
like the only more steam punked out that's the vibe here,
and You're You're You're improperly framed and detained for the
murder of the Empress by a bunch of people who
are clearly usurping the throne and trying to take power
for themselves. And then you're going to spend the whole
game trying to number one, free the Empress's daughter, uh
(03:24):
number two, set to rights this evil plot and free
the kingdom from these usurpers who are putting what might
be called an authoritarian strangle hold on everything. Um. That's
the game. You basically sort of slink around. It's mostly swords,
though there are pistols, and you use a I guess
we're gonna call it the powers of the Void, a
(03:45):
kind of magic that's BioShock asked to teleport places, or
to summon swarms of rats, which is always fun, or
to see people through walls, or many other powers. Uh,
combined with a little bit of swordcraft, just wizard the
fuck out of this traversal challenge and uh combat based game.
(04:07):
It is extraordinarily fun. You get really interesting bits of
dialogue and personalities and uh. The people who rescue you
from the dungeon where you start this game are also
of dubious character as the game wears on, and so
you have to figure out who exactly do you trust
at the end of the day. Is Brad Dorriff from Deadwood?
(04:29):
It's always bred in this who is trustworthy? Pure? He
really is so pure? Um, how did I do? Did
you want to add anything else? I mean, you just
forgot to do do honor to Brad Dorriff, the Great,
the one. But otherwise that's fantastic. Yeah, So let's dive
past another checkpoint, which means, oh no, we didn't get
(04:50):
devoured by that swarm of rats. We possessed one of
those rats and climbed through a sewer where a guard
saw us and killed us. So now we're dead again,
as they always do the first time. It's like come on, man,
which brings us to a segment where we call the
gamer rants. Traditionally, when we don't have a guest, we
just alternate. So I'm player one plugging in. This is
(05:11):
my rant on dishonor rants cover our more emotional take.
Uh Adam tried to confine himself to the objective, which
I appreciate, So my my take on this play through
and dishonored sort of place and the ongoing conversation of
what are games? Where can they go? What can they be?
On this play through, I was thinking a lot about
(05:33):
BioShock and a lot about Half Life. Um, BioShock, I
haven't played too too recently. If you tuned into our
Orange month October, we covered three half Life games, so
I have been playing Half Life a lot recently, and
I think the Half Life connection is a little more subtle,
hence having to have played it recently to notice, And
maybe there's some recency lensing there, But um, I do
(05:56):
feel like our cane is by some to oken, and
this is true of most art, it's true of me
too if I study my own work enough, Um, it's
more rooted in and connected to which could be you know,
you could say derivative or not innovative. But I don't
really mean it with that negative connotation. I mean it's
more firmly set into a particular game flow than I thought.
(06:19):
I thought of it as a little more unique than
it is. And I don't even mean that as a knock.
I mean like, oh, they were actually taking ideas from
BioShock and running with them or shading them, taking some
knowledge from Half Life and running with that, and blah
blah blah. And I think the unique thing they do
bring to it is they really stress to the point
(06:40):
that I actually it's funny to go back to Dishonored
one because they feel this compulsive need to teach us.
Like the game stops many times and confronts you with
a screen that says, play your way. There are multiple
ways to get through this. You could possess a rat
and climb through. You could kill everyone and go through,
but but remember you could sneak through the roofs or
(07:02):
the or you could talk to Granny Rags like They're like,
it's they feel the need to teach the player repeatedly
remember get a lot out of the game, like please
be playing the game right. And I think they felt
the need to do that because of something really cool
that they are bringing to it that is fairly unique,
which is the arcane touch. And this does carry across
(07:25):
death Loop, I think is a they're obsessed with framing
the plot through a series of assassinations. That's also what
death Loop is. But and hit Man is sort of
this as well. And I even mean to this additional degree,
which is their thing is let's tell a story. It'll
be through a series of assassinations, and very much like
hit Man, the goal is play your way. There's not
(07:47):
one way to do the assassination. Yes, it is okay
to kill everyone, cut a bloody swath up to the
person and kill them totally. But we hope you'll try
the version where you have to change clothes and being
skies and trick them into drinking poison. We hope you'll
go back and try the version where you're invisible the
whole time and your ghost no one ever even knows
you were there, and you discredit them instead of killing them. Like,
(08:10):
there's many alternate solutions to each little thing, and so
when you take like it's in it occupies to me
this unique space between UM, Half Life, BioShock, and hit Man.
It's a good mix. I think it's a unique mix.
I don't think it's like birth from whole cloth out
of nothing. I think it owes its existence to these
(08:31):
other things. But they I think they have a unique
set of interest in verve and style that does give
it a unique feel. I really had fun with it.
I think it has some wonky elements. For example, like
to me, it's almost too hard not to overuse blink.
Blink exists in all of their games, and blink is
so useful that I find myself almost falling into the
(08:52):
trap of I know I'm supposed to play anyway I want,
but I really just blink across the rooftops and then
get there and try to stealth, and when stealth falls apart,
then I murder everyone and leave. That tends to be held.
The logic breaks down, but I still admire that they
give you the option to not do that. That's on me,
I could have approached it eight different ways. I usually
(09:14):
use blank just because it's feels so cool um to
blink around like fucking Nightcrawler. Um. But I I appreciate
to such a degree the level that they carried out
player freedom, to the point that famously, in this game,
if you get the right set of skills, if a
guard shoots at you, you can freeze time, possess that guard,
(09:37):
walk around while the bullets in medair, and unpossessed them,
and watch them get shot by their own bullet. Like
that's some dead Space ship. If you listen to our
dead Space episode, we talked about giving the player unique ways,
like they allowed you to tell kinetically rip off limbs
and impale people with them possessing a dude and having
him get shot in the head by his own bullet
(09:57):
that he fired. That's a new one for me, and
like Dishonored did that, and I think it's symblematic of
what they're trying to do, which, frankly, and this will
wrap up my rant um. To me, the greatest thing
it fulfills is the promise of games like Thief. Thief
is the first game where I remember being thinking, oh
my god, I don't have to shoot everyone. I could
(10:20):
pickpocket this dude and sneak in and then shoot this
one dude and take his clothes and then shoot the guy, like,
oh my god, that's such a cool idea. Um, Thief
was the first time I encountered that, other than like
text games where there's multiple paths obviously to success but
or D and D but um, but Thief is an
(10:41):
old game and it's like Dishonored works way better. So
I do feel like it's also an important update on Thief, frankly,
and that's my the mind blowing end of my rant
brands to gains, thank you. Uh yeah, I also thought
about Thief when I was playing it. This time. I
played this like three times, which I think tells you
(11:02):
that I like it. Uh uh So. My my take
on Dishonored is that it's it's not creative in that
it's inventing new things so much as it's creative in
that it's combining things in fun new ways. One thing
that we always sort of we're all not at but
(11:23):
is I think fairly interesting, is that they chose the
setting they did, Like there's a lot of work that
is that goes into the setting they're building. And that's
true of all the arcane games, like Dunwall as a
place is very like nineteenth century industrial, but also mixed
with like a little bit of Half Life two and
(11:43):
like authoritarianism, but also mixed with yeah, and some sword
combat stuff. Like in a way I was when I
was recently playing skyrom again just for fun, and I
was like, God, I wish this game was Dishonored, you know,
I wish I wish Skyram had the the sword play
of Dishonored, which is much more fun and organic. So
(12:04):
like it's combining all those things with like matrix esque
like stopping time and whipping around and like, uh, some
traversal stuff that feels like so empowering that we've never
seen done as well in a different first person shooter.
Like the way you can get around in this game,
the kind of stuff you can do to your enemies
if you want to in this game through the use
(12:26):
of their magic slash traversal powers is immensely satisfying. Like
if you haven't played this game before you play it,
you should google like just somebody who's like a wizard
at killing people and Dishonored. There's tons of videos out
there and you will see like, holy shit, the stuff
you can do is awesome. Like it's a real technical
playground for smooth murder, which if you like that, that's
(12:49):
really cool and that somehow is not exactly at odds
with the world they've created. So it's an interesting combination
of things that feel like they shouldn't be one one
piece of media, but they are and they work, um,
and that's really cool. I think that's one of the
things that's so great about BioShock, and that's one of
the reasons that we we're tracing this back to that
(13:12):
BioShock is also a combination of things that shouldn't work,
but it's very creative. This takes that mental on and
I hope that lots of games take that mantle, like,
let's please think of interesting settings for stories and tell
interesting stories. That said, I think the assassination plot and
the who's the bad guy piece of it is a
(13:33):
little bit dry, Like you don't totally get emotionally invested
in who's who in this, like you know, portrait based
set of villains that you're gonna murder or capture or
free or whatever. So like it's a little bit tough
to get excited about who you're going to kill. And
that's a problem that a lot of these games that
are based around assassinations have like even Splinter Cell another
(13:56):
I think, uh of the ancestors of this game has
that problem, and certainly Assassin's Creed has that problem. We
don't really know the people who have set us up,
Like sure we get a cut scene with them, but
we don't care about them. And uh, I think that
is a bit of a detractor from this game in
terms of being really invested in the narrative of it. Um.
(14:17):
I don't think the people who love it are necessarily like,
my god, the history of Donewall. Do you realize what
this means? I don't think. I don't think we have
anybody who's like that passionate about that here, or if
you do, I'm surprised because I think it's not that great. Um.
I also, and this may seem like a really dumb criticism,
but one thing that really struck me this time when
I was playing it is it's very dull looking considering
(14:39):
how exciting it is. Like when you play Death Loop,
it's colorful and it's vibrant and it's interesting and engaging.
This this game is colored like it's like saving Private
Ryan in the past, Like it's all very muddy and dark,
and you know, like just rusty looking and not lit
and colored in a way that gets that's as exciting
(14:59):
as the ideas are. I think this game could honestly
use a remake that's just a sort of a new
code of paint on it, and it would really make
a difference for how engaged people felt with it. I'm
not kidding. I really believe that. I really believe we
could use some sort of vibrancy here that matches the
excitement of this premise and of this execution. Um. I
(15:20):
think the world is more interesting than it is great,
but I still like it. Like, I don't think it's
as thought out as Rapture is. I think we it
could use more layers of sort of not people, but
sort of like why is the world like this? Where
exactly are we? Like? That stuff is a little bit
more backgrounded here, um, and we could use more of
it if you want us to care about the franchise
(15:42):
as a whole. And I think that even about the sequel. Um.
But that said, the powers they give you are even
though their BioShock ask, they're unique and they're so fun
to use, and uh, if you're measuring a game based
on fund this is one of the most fun games
in the last ten years. In my like, it's a
really fun game, a really fun franchise. I think Kane
(16:05):
can continue to make games in this franchise for decades
and we would be thrilled. And that is my rant. Yeah,
I have luck in Pendil Center. Like nothing, they're just
not You're just not like, oh, I can't wait to
get those foks Like it's like I feel like as
the story guy. Man, I'm upset with myself for not
having called that out. But you're absolutely right, uh. I
(16:28):
think we always have to give credit to people who
are presenting whole cloth new world fantasy worlds that are
brand new franchise. You haven't been to Rapture before, you
haven't been to don Wall before. Um. I think that's
why it's like big points for putting together a world.
And I think that's why you got so excited about
the gameplay ideas, because the story wasn't engaging enough for
(16:51):
you to get excited about it, you know what I mean. Like,
I think that's kind of telling in its own way.
But before we, you know, do our full frontal list
halt on the gates of Dunwall, shall we hop to
a couple of commercials and gather ourselves and the commercials
will be the version as we sneak in. Of course. Yeah,
by the way, nice mask. I like what you're wearing.
(17:13):
This is my face? What a funk up thing to say,
And we're back. We worked out that unpleasantness. Um, well
is your face Simply we mistook my face for a
hideous mask. I'll get over it in time, or stab
(17:37):
me in the neck with his short sword, but that
would passed another checkpoint. So uh, and improbably precariously built
tall boy has just handed us our ass and we've
been forced to, I don't know, take a boat ride
with Samuel, as they say into the segment called game On.
(17:59):
And I'm also whimsical of all the whimsical batties the
tall boys, just like, Yeah, it's like dudes on stilts
with like rockets and ships. So this is the end.
It's the enemy equivalent of like Homer riding the bicycle
with the big wheel to the ice cream social. Yeah,
they're these dudes who, somehow I guess are to be
(18:21):
feared because they're on giant robots stilts, which I guess
makes it easier to spot you. But I don't and
and then yes they kill you. I did they like
lash these weird things out at you that fucking destroy
you in a second. But I mean just in real
life those things would be But is the game has
(18:44):
a tone. I fully accept that, and I accept that
from Arcane and death Loop Death Loop is uh yeah,
they they live in a cartoon asque physics reality. Um,
they're definitely more concerned with look at that cool thing
we made up than Uh. They're not the bants if
that registers for anyone. They're not trying to be like, no,
this could really work, Like let's bring this out. They're
(19:06):
like no, no, no, no, no no no. Here's like an
old timey, you know, bailiff type guy like should be
a Keystone cop trolling around London, but he's in a
giant metal stilt machine. Uh. And I love how everything's
powered by whale oil. I do like the details they
do have, um their unique Like they have these walls
of light that you can reprogram so that they'll only
(19:28):
kill enemies and not you. That's walk him into him,
trick him into their throw him into their like and
said staggering emergent complexity in terms of how are we
going to kill this dude. It also rewards curiosity and
experimentation in that way. And that's like, I feel like,
if you're going to create a murder playground, which a
(19:49):
lot of first person shooters are, um, you know, or
the Grand Theft Auto of the world, you want to
you want the game to have anticipated the kind of
stuff you do and reward you with like funny animations
and stuff. And this game does not disappoint on that front.
Like it's it's extremely rewarding to try new ways to
kill people, and it's it's great. Like honestly, you can
(20:11):
have a fun afternoon redoing a level over and over
with coming up with unique ways to kill people and
it would be fun. Right, Like I like, I haven't
tried that because that doesn't appeal to me, but I
think those of you who it does appeal to you'll
have fun. Give it a shot. Murder Away, friends, this
is your playground. Um yeah, man, But if you haven't,
you have played. I do just want to call out
(20:32):
the stuff that occurred to me this time. Maybe it's
obvious to others, but I was like, oh, this is
totally a responsive BioShock in the form of the story
is told through audiograph players, which in their world are
like very funny but cute to me. Again, same aesthetic, right, stupid,
not practical, but a funny idea. Their computer punch cards
that go through some kind of typewriter and noise comes out. Um,
(20:55):
that is not how noise. Noise cannot be recorded easily
on a gritted punch car. But anyway, it's like a
it's like a player piano card. That's what it looks like.
It's the same as an audiologue from BioShock. Um. The
scrounging is identical to BioShock. Right. One hand is your sword,
one hands your powers, and down to the detail of
like you have a mark on your hand that represents
(21:16):
that you have magic powers, just like BioShock infinite. Um.
So I don't think there's shy about that, and actually
it's on me for not noticing it before. But I
think they added something that BioShock truly doesn't have and
only just hinted at, Like when you're in rapture. The
cool thing was the sort of a the deformed. So
that's something else they left from BioShock. Right, everyone, you
(21:38):
you're sort of in this mildly depopulated environment in this
case because of a plague, and all the characters you
meet are twisted or haunted or broken in some way.
That's very rapture. Um Uh but uh rapture The cool
thing they're mechanically, I thought, and I think a lot
of people felt was the minimal But they're ghost system
(22:00):
because you had big daddies who had a goal of
siphoning this energy from corpses and the and they guarded
little sisters who they needed to help them siphon the energy.
And you could kill the big daddy and save the
little sister, and every time it was a moral decision
spare or kill the little sister that would up you
rpg blah blah blah blah blah, And then our knees like, okay,
so all that stuff, but our twist is different. Our
(22:23):
twist is thief essentially. Um. But I really think it
all pairs nicely. Uh. Where it falls down to me
as I would love to talk about No, no, no,
I'll say, well, let's keep talking about the good mechanics stuff.
So it's it's not It's okay, it's not Assassin's creed,
(22:45):
though in the it really isn't a bustling metropolis and
like so like a lot of the thief stuff that
already was pretty like well established, they didn't do. Like
you can't sneak into crowds, you know, like and you
can't like high and bushes and stuff like you really,
it really is you navigating a terrain of people who
(23:05):
are going to attack you. With like rare exceptions of
n pcso you can dialogue with, but mostly everyone you
run into is an enemy here. And I think that
makes it that makes you do more what you were
saying in your rant, and I wanted to agree with you.
It really does push you in the direction if you
need to stealth this because like, sure you can murder everybody,
(23:28):
but like, but it really is designed to stealth. Um
that is the primary gameplay or do some of the workarounds,
like they want you to do poison and they want
you to do the side quest stuff of course, right,
and you won't do them if you're not going to
play itself. Like so ultimately, even though sure you can,
(23:48):
you know, make this a bloodbath, if you don't play itself,
you're not really playing the game the way they designed it.
You know, they would have object to that, but it's
but it's a self game, like, that's really what it is.
In fact, I would if you listen to death episode
I believe we talked about one of the grapes. A
lot of people I know who played with played that
hat is the final mission, the house party. Almost everyone
(24:10):
I know eventually beat by just finding a corner where
you had a really good cover, shotting everyone in the
whole house as they ran upstairs. Because to stealth it
was so intricately difficult that it became frustrating. Actually think
Dishonored has a perfect balance of the stealth feels empowering
but not fully. You can still funk up like I
got caught, but I also felt like I was good
(24:32):
at it. I was fair. It feels extremely triple A
and like the first developer, it feels so smooth and snappy,
and the physics feel good. It feels right, I like.
I also don't want to neglect the actual craftsmanship of
the work being done by the animators and the programmers
and whoever is interacting with the engine. Another thing about
(24:52):
Arcane is they feel good. The games feel quality. I
think I think they are the best feeling for movement
in that in the first person shooter Space, although I
couldn't help but thinking while playing this, what I really
want is a game that has the sort of park
core of Mirror Is You're Dying Light, but with Blank.
I want Blank and the complex park courses. I think
(25:15):
we're one game away from that. I think Arcane is
going to make that game. Like I have a lot
of faith in this developer because even though I don't know,
I don't like everything they do in terms of like
every piece of their execution, what they do well, they hit,
they hit it out of the park, Yes, and I
think that's true. Death Loop, you are essentially just a
(25:36):
block and when you jump, you go up and down.
In an arc I would love that procedural park course
ship to start entering the equation I got tight and
fall Ship well. And again just to comment briefly on
Death Loop too, because Death Loop is their most recent game,
and you can see that it's an extension of this
idea like Dishonored, Uh, Death Loop is I think, in
(25:57):
some ways trying to solve the thinness of the universe
with like layers and layers and layers of lore and
just like a little bit style, yes, and a little
bit like just a bunch of layers of like, who
is this person, let's go investigate, so like they really
shove your nose in the story for better for worse,
and I feel like that might be a response to
(26:19):
the positivity that people felt about Dishonored, but but also
the fact that dishonored story is like pretty minimal. Even
Dishonored to the story is pretty minimal. It's really just
a guy's to let you sword dudes to death and
call rats down on them, you know. Uh. I think
death Loop is a response to it, and as a result,
having recently replayed Death Loop, it's not as fun to
(26:41):
replay because it's trying to hook you in the story,
but once you know it, it's there's no discovery there.
I did find the targets in definitely much more like
fully painted and memorable than the targets and dish and Dishonored.
It's like, kill this generic uh steam guy, and then
the next mission is like kill this generic steampunk woman.
(27:03):
The next one's like, now they're twins killed too, generic
steampunk guys like uh, definitely definitely advanced the cause of
the big bads being more recognizable and differentiable, but a
great move for our game, I agree, but weirdly because
the that game was so focused on making you absorb
the world, it's less replayable, I would say. And also
(27:25):
because yeah, I couldn't. Well I tried, and I was like, oh,
I'm not as excited about this. I need to wait
until I've forgotten it to replay it. The puzzle, well,
it's also unique, definitely, and we should stick more to
the well because now you know what I'm saying. But
death loops also a unique clockwork puzzle, which Dishonored is not.
Where once you know it, it's hard to unknow it
(27:46):
till maybe you let ten years go by and you
genuinely forget it and play it again. But it has
that aspect which Dishonored is not. It's a linear thing. Um.
What I will say about Dishonored the other huge gameplay
thing that I think can be under respect and it
is not true of Half Life, and it's not true
of BioShock, and is was supposed to be true of
mass effects but isn't really. Um, Dishonored actually does and
(28:09):
it's in a interestingly you could argue minimal way, because
I think it's just changes sort of certain enemy spawn
points and things like that, and some of the plot details.
But I love that early on in this game, not
at the beginning, which is a detail I love as well,
but like two levels in they tell you, by the way,
there's such a thing as chaos, and it determines like
(28:30):
it's how stealthy you are, how many guards you killed,
how many times you got spotted, and how ruthless you
are with your moral decisions. And just so you know,
high chaos will affect the final mission of the game,
and low chaos will also, So like when you get
to the final mission, it's called whatever, but then in
parentheses it says low chaos version, middle chaos version, or
(28:51):
high chas version. I think that's really cool. And it
also affects the actual outcomes in a basic way, but
that's enough for me, Like I still think that's dope.
So like, if you have low chaos, the level plays
as pretty much as intended, and you're a hero and
you save the princess and all this. Well, if you
play with high chaos, it becomes it's just like, what
(29:14):
genre do you want it to be? Basically, if you
do it with high chaos, then the final mission features
way more zombies and rats. People are much like the
npcies are dead and dying. Things are bleak, and at
the end of the story, the vibe is more like, Wow,
I mean, you got the throne back, but everyone's pretty
shocked by how much you fucking murdered everyone, and all
(29:35):
of our economy is disrupted, etcetera, etcetera. And even the
princess is like I fear you now, like I respect you,
but I fear you, And it's like a very different cast, right.
I just thought they nailed the promise of play your way,
the important second beat in that for a satisfaction loop
for a user has got to be and that has
(29:56):
an effect, right, like play your way should be unerstand
by some judgment scale at the end, and they did
that satisfactorily. To me, play your Way actually impacts the
ending in a meaningful way. And I and also again
created a more replayable game, like I like, I really
think that's a feature of this game that is not
true of a lot of story based first person shooters,
(30:19):
Like this is a game that playing it different ways
is fun to do, and they spent the time and
energy to make that true. Now because of that, the
game is a little simpler then, like some of its
like compatriots, like there's not I don't I don't know
how many levels are. I think it's eight or something
like that, but they're not immensely complicated, right, They're they're
(30:39):
very like this game takes like ten to twelve hours
to play, and it feels a little short when in
sixty minutes, I'm sure easily He's like if you don't
kill people, especially like you and you're really times and
you just zip up there and kill them and leave. Yeah,
So like a little bit in using this comparison very gently,
a little bit like Breath of the Wild. It's sort
of built out for you to do as much or
(31:02):
as little of this as you want. Like they're they're
more serious about the playground than they are about the story,
but they cared enough to satisfactorily wrap up the story.
And also that even contributed to the replayability. The more
I think about, the more I think this game was
designed like primarily around loops and like enjoying new kinds
(31:23):
of loops, and less about the setting, even though I
think people's take away from the game is how cool
the setting and magic and stuff is. You know what
I mean, Like that feels ancillary to me the more
I think about it, But I love success. Hurdy Gurdy's
in their chest. That silence is your magic. What a
cool idea? Exactly no sense, but it's cool. Yeah, I mean,
(31:43):
I know they didn't invent the concept of teleporting and stuff, right,
but can you think of a game that does it
better than this game? That does zipping around a matt
better than this game? It's the first person well, Neon
White is the only one I can think of, which
is moderation is built holy a round. It's a truversal
puzzle game. This is like an open world game of
(32:04):
characters and you know, assassinations and ships. So I think
this is more impressive that blank works in this context,
and it's so satisfying. I mean, that's I mean, maybe
that's the problem with it. When you're that you're saying earlier, right,
so you're like, I fell into the trap of blinking
all the time. It's I would say, I use blink
more than I use my sword. Like I just absolute
(32:25):
people spot me. I just blink up onto the roof
and wait for them to not spot me. You know.
It's like you can always blink. They're also really generous
with like especially once you get one or two upgrades.
They're really generous about when you get discovered versus when
you don't. You know, like if that's one of those
key ingredients with stealth games is like sort of what
is the line of discovery? And like how how good
(32:46):
is their presivative? Is their peripheral vision? What's the tone set? Like? Yeah,
and this game feels like it's designed in a way
that is fun but still tonally consistent with the badass
you want to be. You know, it's funny that it
takes someone of full three seconds to realize they're seeing you,
so you have time to escape, which is great, it
(33:08):
makes the game more fun. But the idea that someone
sees you and goes is that you is that you? Oh,
I guess it's not because they moved out of my
field of view is hilarious and not you know, or
like the idea that and this is true of most
health games. Uh, they'll hear you if you take any action,
but like you can open and close doors that are
(33:28):
right by them and they don't notice the sound that yeah,
I mean, but also in it's always tilted in a
way that makes it fun first, right, yeah, yeah. And
another thing that's cool about this is that the world
does the world is not just structured in a way
that's antagonistic to the player, like like if enemies make
(33:51):
decisions like passing through the wall of light and they're
not supposed to and you've geared it the wrong way,
or like shooting it, shooting in the direction of other enemies,
like it hurts them. Stuff that. Like, it's my favorite
stuff about from soft games, right, is when you can
get the enemies send up fighting each other by accident,
you know, I mean, like they have stuff like that
in this game, so you can do more almost like
strategy kinds of ways to play the game. In fact,
(34:13):
there's a lot of little puzzles that are designed around
how can you make the enemies kill themselves? And it's great.
There's a thing I have I don't even think hit
Man has, which is that even though you're doing a
series of set pieces essentially, and you're encouraged to think
of them as separate vignettes, because they want you to
replay them and go, like like the game menu is
(34:34):
designed around you want to do Level three again? Do it? Man?
Or you want to do level four with a different
goal in mind, go for it um but unlike and
hit Man is like that. But unlike hit Man, there
are side quests and death Loop doesn't do this either,
that are not advancing, like obviously there's multiple ways to
(34:55):
end up killing your target, but there's also side quests
unrelated too, like a thread that resolves and ends that
is a little mini story, a true side quest that
doesn't advance the assassination thing that it happens in the
that you can do or not do an optional side quest.
And what's amazing to me is some of them even there,
(35:16):
there are follow up beats in later levels, like the
structure of that is so cool to me, meaning incidentally, well,
on my way to assassinate so and so, I met
these lovers who are being split up by whatever, blah
blah blah, and I made this moral decision. I killed
a guard and saved them. Then in the next level
I see them being happy and prospering because time has advanced.
(35:40):
Little touches like that, that's cool. Fall are like hit Man,
which is the same structure, doesn't do that. That's that's
unique to me. They're fully contained side quests within the
assassination quests. Hit Man doesn't take itself as seriously as
Dishonored does well, and yet the mass grade level of
Dishonors very hit manny, right, It's I mean, they share
so many mechanics that I'm so glad you brought them
(36:02):
up because the hit Man, like hit Man, will occasionally
lapse into like wouldn't it be funny if I could
be a mascot and kill this guy with a baseball?
You know what I mean? Like that kind of that
kind of ship, right, right, right, Like like here are
funny ways to do it, right, and like it really
is a playground of what stuff to the developer, I
think to do, and actually going in and shooting somebody
(36:22):
is not that fun and hit Man, in fact, it's
usually a big pain in the ass. Dishonored is scaled
enough that like they don't give you as many options, right,
and they're not as silly, but every one of them
is good and impacts the story and what happens in
later levels in a meaningful way. So like it really
feels even though it's a smaller box, like it's all
(36:43):
very tightly intricately wound, and that's pretty impressive, you know, like,
I find that impressive. By the way, did you look
at the fucking cast that they got for Dishonored? The
act Whenever I see the name Brad du If, I
become unconscious for the next like to twelve minutes, as
I exist in a state of pure rapture, of pure
(37:05):
bro Well, first of all, I know that about you,
and I love that about you. Here are some other
actors that are in Dishonored. But bear in mind, of course,
this was not a known developer, so I don't know
how they did this. But Lena Hetty isn't dishonored, Chloe
Grace Moretz isn't dishonored, Michael Madison isn't dishonored, Carrie Fisher
isn't dishonored, and uh, Susan Sarandon plays Granny REGs. Yeah,
(37:29):
she plays gans. I recognized that that was Susan fucking
That's what I'm saying. Is anything good death Loup actually
leans more towards hit Man with the kills because there
are funny ones like little bit if you convince him
to do an open mic night and then the mic
shocks him to death and ship like that. But um,
dishonored is more grounded, where it's like, well, you could
kill the guy or you can discredit him in the
(37:53):
court of public opinion. That's some more grounded options, right
than hit Man or Definitely definitely, but I think Granny
Rags is probably thus stand out side quest in the
sense that you can if you engage with Granny Rags,
who I it's mind blowing to me that that's Susan
Surrian And um, you can have a multibeat over the
(38:13):
course of like maybe four of the seven missions thing
where you keep encountering Granny Rags and you either do
her bidding or resist helping her, and you are very
much like, what's the deal with Granny Rags? And if
you try to kill her, she explodes into a cloud
of rats and you're like, what does that mean? Um,
so there's this whole and you what I love is
(38:34):
you never have to meet Granny Rags at all. You
have to go out of your way to have that
whole subplot. Um the kind of confidence that they have
to actually build out. Like we recently covered a Wolf
among Us and talked about how there's an illusion to
a degree, there's like we want it to be a
(38:55):
choose your own adventure story where you can choose anything,
because that's the promise of video games. But it's me
you can't choose anything. A lot of the decisions monkey
fist back to the original path the story was gonna
blah blah blah anyway. Um, I would say, as far
as that storytelling problem goes, Arcane put in more work
than they needed to and did a better job than
most at creating a world so expansive in the content,
(39:18):
not like I don't mean like it's the biggest video
game map ever made, like Skyrim was in the day,
but I mean expansive enough given the context of what
the game is, that there's more than they're needed to be.
You can wander very far off the beaten path and
encounter a bunch of stuff that feels like extra content,
which is a really cool thing and that they built
(39:39):
out more successfully and dishonored to like I feel like
dishonored too. Most of the missions have some secondary flavor,
like a character or a quest or something that adds
to the emotional context, which is why narratively it's a
little bit better than one. Um. By the way the
Granny Rag story ends up resolving with the other major
(40:00):
side character. I would say there's two and it's Granny
Rags and slack Jaw and slack Jaws cool, and he
represents another aspect of society here, right, like the sort
of the crime element that's organized, but more like the
peaky blinders like working and crime out of desperation. I
feed the poor by by bending the law. Yeah. Well,
(40:21):
and they're sort of both. They both represent the oppressed
in somewhere or the other side if they're good or bad.
And that's fun. Right again, a thing we didn't need
that you're you know, you're not like you're interested in it,
but not necessarily like, oh, I really need to find
out what happens to Granny Rags and slack Jaw. But
they really tied that together, well, I thought, with the
(40:41):
choice to save one or the other at the end.
Uh spoilers, sorry if you you know, but that's how
we do with this podcast. You have to side with
one or the other. You have to side with one
the other. That's right. Um, can okay? Can we I'm
just looking at the clock. I feel like it's a
good time. Okay. Can we talk about the story? Yeah?
Because that's run of the most great. Well, I think
(41:02):
it sucks the world and vibe is great. But to me,
story means you know what I mean, but just it
would be clear. I mean the the velocity what's it
called where you actually have the vertex anyway navigation, the
character's navigation through the world. Right, I can love the
(41:24):
world and blah blah blah, and still the stories week
and I just mean down to points like, um, they
torture you at the beginning to try and get a
false confession out of you. Um. Then they excuse a
guard from the room in order to sweadily discuss their
plan and deed like this opens. This story opens with
(41:45):
the James Bond villain telling you, we're framing you, motherfucker.
We knew we are doing all this because of this reason.
Why would they get confirmation? And then also as that
scene wraps up, they talk to each other and imply
that it was just chance that you were there that day.
They go like, it's lucky for us he was here today.
We can use him as a patsy. Then what was
(42:07):
their plan before the whole plan is that they need
a patsy? Why would the writers make it so that
it was mere chance you showed up. They should have
known that you were going to be there on that day,
and that's why it is that day. Um, I'll be done,
but I want to rattle them all off at once.
Show the preponderance of bullshit. UM a classic one, but
I level it at any story where I encounter it. Emily,
(42:30):
the princess you're trying to save, incredibly calm and well
adjusted as she witnesses the murder of her mother, is
held hostage against her will in a brothel after a
lifetime of living in luxury, then is immediately told by
some strange woman she's never met, High'm Callissa. I'll be
taking care of you now, and goes okay by Corvo,
I'm going with Callissa's a doll, She's not anything, and
(42:54):
that bothers me. Um. The plot is mostly people repeating
the stakes to you, like even Brad Dorriff. Most of
the dialogue is one of three things. Corvo, you're the
only one who can do this. To this must be
done or don Donwall will be fucked. Three they fucked you.
I'm sorry. When you've been dishonored. Did you see the
(43:16):
title of the game. You're dishonored? Um, like four fun
that guy, and then again at the end. The big
twist of Act two to three is because this was
a classic of the time and still is in some games.
But I think we're losing it a bit right. Games
used to be like we love saying the game's wrapping
(43:38):
up now and then go, surprise, there's three more levels,
because we like to feel oversatisfied by our games, so
the game feels like it's wrapping up. And then I
would argue for very weak reasons that are kind of
glossed over, like, well, every man longs for power when
he gets that close to the throne. I don't know, really,
when there's a magic ninja who you know, could slit
(43:58):
your throat at any second ups in you, I don't know.
But anyway, the guys who were supporting you the whole
time are like, you know what, that was a good plan.
The previous bad guys who we just killed also use Corvos. Yeah,
fuck Carvo, let's use him as just let's just shift
over and inhabit the plan that the original bad guys
(44:19):
have and let's discuss the details of that plan, which
we already know over Corvo's body. Well, he's unconscious, and
it turns out, of course he's not unconscious, he's listening.
But I don't understand. There's this major scene where they
poison Corvo and they lay him in bed, and then
they stand there and they literally say ship like, as
(44:39):
you know, we're gonna blame Corbo for this. That's right,
we're betraying him. Okay, just so we're all clear, we're
betraying Corvo. He's the patsy. If he wakes up, he'll
kill us. But he won't wake up. Would let's go um?
So it's just like when we hold it up to
the scrutiny that we do try to on this show,
this stories pretty shoddy. So I think is the fair word?
(45:04):
Can I say? I like, I think you're right about everyone,
Like all those beats are problematic in the cracked sense
of it, where it's like the logic behind this doesn't
really make sense. I think we would forgive it if
we were invested enough in the world and characters before
the plot started, you know what I mean, Like like
(45:25):
this is a movie or not a movie, excuse me,
a game that's missing the first sequence of a movie
where you're like, and here's Corvo at Home and Dunwall
and here's how Wales go and here's his friend the Empress,
you know what I mean? Like that kind of stuff
that in movies is about training you what the world
is like. We don't have that in this game. And
they did that because they wanted to be exciting, But
(45:45):
consequently they're constantly having to explain to you how the
world works and how this plot works. So you're never
emotionally invested in the overarching plan to save Corvo's reputation.
You're never invested in that. You're also never invested in
these guys who are rescuing you because you're still like
and who are they? And what are their titles? Mean? Like,
you're just not grounding enough in it to care. I
(46:09):
have a suspicion that if you were that some of
those problem most of those problems would be satisfied, or
you wouldn't think about them, you know, uh, Like, I mean,
you and I are screenwriters, so like we're constantly debating
what stuff is are people gonna notice? And not? I
think those plot holes would disappear if I understood the
world a little better. Do you disagree with that? Every
(46:30):
writer faces the challenge with a world that has to
be explained. Anytime it's not present day, it's set in
the world, you just recognize the normal world. Anytime you
deviate from that, right, you have to get information to
your viewers that the people living in that world already know.
And this is called exposition. Every writer has to find
a way too, as gracefully as they can cram through it.
(46:53):
And I would just say, there's a wide spectrum. Some
people do it so elegantly that it ceases to be exquisite.
It's like I was learning revealing things about the character
through understanding the laws of the world. Great to that level. Um,
So no, they're not alone. In many movies and TV shows,
even ones I like, I'll forgive or I'll go like,
(47:15):
well that was the exposition scene. You gotta whip it
out and get through it, right, um and I'll just go.
But the rest of the movie kicked ask So therefore,
blah blah blah, we kind of needed one up top
here that the plague and how it tied to Jesse
mettal whatever. Like, I don't think like even though we're
adding the information, like I understand the information, were never
(47:38):
given it at a place where we can care about
it later we're given it where we needed to even
comprehend the like the next the point of the next level,
right Like, I would say, the only character that you
get emotionally attached to in this game is Samuel the
boating guy, right well, just by virtue of the fact
that he's constantly telling you how great you are and
(47:58):
that you're a good man what and that he no
but that he has emotions and that he's part of this,
like he's a little bit afraid of what's going to happen,
and that they do a little twist with him and
I that really makes a difference. I think the rest
of it's kind of I mean, you know, I get
a little bit bread dirt because of the dirt of
it all. But you know, but Piero is not an
(48:19):
interesting character. He's okay, yeah, he's all right, you know,
um yeah again. My problem is they don't say stuff
about They never Pierre On Sokolov, don't say stuff like
Samuel does, which is this is how I relate to
the world or the situation or the themes, this is
what's unique to my character, that makes me a character.
They only say stuff like we're all counting on you, Corvo,
(48:41):
Do you need me to construct any science for you?
You know, they're just functionaries. Basically, these mind traps were
invented by me, not Socolove. Socolove, I enjoy how much
they all hates. I guess the only the only depth
of their character development is that they have a rivalry
with each other. That's about it, right, Well, I kind
of like this. Socol Love as a character is basically
(49:02):
just like nine Aristotle, like he can He's just great
at everything and entirely dislikable. Uh. Anyway, it sounds like
maybe we're time. It's time for us to sharpen our
blades and get ready for our final assault. So let's
dive into the boat and take the long trip across
the ad break to the distant shore. All right, Samuel,
(49:31):
you wait here. We're gonna go keep her delete you
fucking move, or we will stab you. Have you seen
what we've been doing? Stab Damuel? You keep this boat idling?
I will be back. Do you see those rats all
staring at you in unison? I'm controlling they know what
to do if you try to do I am controlling them. Uh. Yes,
(49:51):
I guess we're about ready to pass our final checkpoint
and decide does this game get kept or deleted? From
this out in the flooded district, I mean, yeah, who
goes first? I feel like I always make you go first.
You want me to go first? I was gonna I
was going to use that argument and try to make
(50:11):
you go first. Um boy, I gotta tell you. I,
um this one's really on the edge for me. Uh God,
I feel like I I feel like it does make
sense to keep this, but I we've kept two bioshocks
right right from Infinite and BioShock one after some debate, right,
(50:38):
I never really come prepared with a encyclice. No, No,
it's on a spreadsheet I can load up. I don't
think that. I really don't think there is a smoother
uh cocktail of movement and magic Like I think this
game is fun to the max on that front and
on the murder front. Uh. And I think like mechanically
(51:01):
it deserves to be kept. So I'm gonna keep it.
But if you deleted, my heart would not be sunk.
But I do think it rises to the level of
being kept because it's that good. What say you, sir?
I don't I'm deleting it. Um, and it's not far
from the line, but it's not on the line. I
(51:22):
can say that and be like, Yeah, that's my decision.
I believe in my heart that Arcane will make the drive.
Um but I don't. They only have three games out, Like,
I don't need them to make it now. I hope
I don't regret that decision or they like disband and
this was all we had to judge them by. Because
I do think Dishonored is great. The world is great,
the moves are great. I might even keep Dishonored too,
(51:44):
because usually in video game franchise two is the one
where you really have your legs under you and have
sharpened your your process. Um, but I just don't. I
I usually keep on this show. I keep stuff that
is either hits equally at all levels gameplay story blah
(52:05):
blah blah is for some reason especially just has one
facet that blows me away, like the story of Last
of Us versus other elements of it that are like debatable,
but the story you know is unparalleled or what have you?
Um Or a game that I think is so important
to the chain of video game dialectic that like it's
(52:27):
mechanically important like I'll grant you your Mario super Mario
worlds and what have you, right, um, And I think
that this is firmly in the flow of video game conversation,
as I outlined in my rant. Um, I think it
hits fine on most levels, really well on one or
two levels, brings some innovation, but not the most innovation ever.
(52:51):
And there's also just this feeling of like glow. I
don't know. When I think of games, very few have
this like glow around them, and those are the ones
I keep. And this doesn't have the glove to me,
which I realize is so subjective. But I believe Arcane
will make the drive. I do think Arcane will make
the Drive. I think dishonor Too has a really good chance.
I think Arcane as a developer is doing some of
(53:12):
the best work. Um. I do want to go back briefly.
Do you agree that this game is a little bit drab? Like?
It really hit me? Thus, I know I made that
point in my rant, and we didn't talk about it much.
I love show like that, so like this also reminds
me of a game I bring up way more than
it deserves to be brought up, because it's objectively like,
but Sunless s Guys is a Victorian London Trains space game.
(53:35):
It's like Dunwall aesthetic, and I love that aesthetic. I'm
into it. I'm into it being drabbing, creepy if it's
well written. I liked the oil painting nous of it,
and it definitely fit in that respect. But Dishonor too
as I remember it moved away. I think is a
little brighter, and I also would say that, um, for
my money, like Death Loop is a greater accomplishment in
(53:57):
terms of style. It's bold are to bring back in
the salt bass look and that funky seventies yellow brown orange.
It was cool. Death Loop was quite a classy like
walk into the room and fucking lay that onto the table.
It was impactful, I thought. I agree, but the opening
teasers and trailers that dropped were really exciting. They were awesome.
(54:20):
I think Desandered is a better game, though I agree.
I'm just talking about purely at a style points level.
Death Loop. Really yeah, they moved away from this aesthetic generally,
which you know, maybe it's just all narrative, but I
think that was good. Like I like the aesthetic, but
I think it does kind of hold the game back
just a little bit. Anyway, I guess we're gonna set
(54:43):
sail after having burnt done wall to the ground dead wall.
That's said. Anyway, enjoy the ash and rats all of
you who are left behind, and we'll see you next time.
It was a great chat anyway. Yeah. If you like
us really muddily stepping over each other's lines because Adam
forgot that I have to do the plug I forgot,
(55:04):
you can find us doing that all the time over
at patreon dot com slash small beans, where we'd really
love to have you. We have a ton of other
shows where we talk about movies, pop culture, TV, multi
versus friendship, whole wide range of things, Um Spielberg movies,
(55:25):
the art of directing, Star Trek, the next Generation Future,
the works of Stephen King, on and on and on again.
That's patreon dot com slash small beans or just search
small Beans wherever you get your podcasts. Otherwise, stay tuned
for another one upsmanship next week. We're complete
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