April 24, 2023 • 51 mins
Join the chorus, new one. Voices clash and clamor in the never-ending quest to recover our lost souls from the dark places they may wander. In this episode, your stalwart hosts Adam and Michael pore over a game that demands to be taken seriously, both by virtue of the topics at hand and the loving care the developers obviously put into the exercise. But does laudable handling of human suffering equate to a good game? Should it? Does it have to? There’s no doubt Senua’s is a work of art, but to make it onto the Celestial Hard Drive, we’ll have to answer those questions and more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, bingo bango, sugar in the gas tank.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Your ex husband stricks again.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Everyone our age you knows that sound bite, that's the
best one. Speaking of we mentioned last episode we taped,
I don't care which order of the audience. Here's it
in game called dust the tail of the Wired West,
And there's a sound you make whenever you enter the
shop to sell or buy stuff that is wind chimes
going ding ding, did ding ding, did ding ding ding,
(00:52):
And that exact sound has played in my head a
couple times a day for the for thirty years.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Are you curious?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's like a sound effect that is stuck in my head.
It's also kind of a Willhelm screen because I hear
it used in other in shows and movies as chimes.
It must just be a studio, you know, like.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Library. Yeah, yeah, it could be that. It could be
it's a sound library. I mean, hearing things in your
head is an appropriate intro and a professionally executed one
as a as always No, but to the game we're
going to be talking about today, which is hell Blade,
Sendua's Sacrifice or send Wa. How do you pronounce your name?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Is it Senua? I've heard sen you a most often okay, Sen,
me too.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Hell Blade, Sendua's Sacrifice a tremendous I think you can
call it indie game that is supposedly receiving a sequel
that deals very famously with some mental health issues, and
we're going to be talking about all those issues as
we cover the hell out of this game. You want
(02:01):
to snap right into format, Mike and get in to
tell me. I'm a bit Do you feel like doing
that piece or should I do it?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I don't care who does it as long as we
pass a checkpoint first, which means the black oil of
complete hopeless despair has made its way to our heart,
and it really has in the madness.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
And so much whispering, so much oaken whispering. You can
do it, Michael Summer.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
First, the backstory I'm curious to I'll say this. Yeah,
I worked at IGN for three years as a video creator.
If you're interested, I did an in depth video on
Sendua's Sacrifice and you can go check it out there.
It is basically a longer version of what I think
Adams should do because I already done it. Google it.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Okay, great, then I guess I will do it. So
here we go, hell Blade, send you Us. Sacrifice is
a twenty seventeen action adventure game. It was released by
Ninja Theory. It is essentially a story of a young
Viking woman who is journeying into Hell, ostensibly to recover
(03:08):
her dead lover. As she does so, she encounters various obstacles,
most of which seem like they are related to her
mental illness. And I say mental illness because the game
eventually sort of makes it very clear it is a
mental illness issue, that there is a metaphor for mental
illness going on in this game. She's hearing voices she
(03:31):
doesn't know who to listen to, and all of the
challenges seem to slowly reveal some of the backstory that
led her to this point, as she comes to confront
just sort of her lost faith in her society, specifically
her father and the religion of their society with the
gods and stuff, and grieves over the irretrievable loss of
(03:55):
this young man who was killed by invaders. Much takes
place in a Norse mythological Norse mythological setting, uh and
and I would say is more grounded in a lot
of ways than say, like God of War. But drawing
on similar.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Uh you say that easy to say.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yes, Yes, it's more grounded. It's more grounded, but it's
drawing on similar imagery and certainly similar stories. Even in fact,
it tells some of the same stories. And that was
kind of fun about it. And uh, it was a
big hit. It's not a very long game. It's between
eight and twelve hours, I want to say. And it
(04:36):
was surprise hit. I believe it was an Xbox exclusive.
Is that true? No, it was not. It was on
PlayStation two. Okay, great, but it's it's what it's self
described as an independent Triple A game. It does feel
like that. And we're going to see a sequel soon.
And that's it. Now you're educated. Have I missed anything?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Mike? Is there.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Watch me? Watch about you? Is there anything you want
to add to it? To the summary?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I guess, just because I'd rather get into the meat
of it immediately. But gameplay is mostly walking around and
doing puzzles that are like visualizing rooms up or a
thing that keeps disappearing. You follow it, kind of like
The Lost Woods and Breath of the Wild, or you
basically figure out what you need to look at or
(05:28):
what you need to follow or how you need to
proceed by climbing or walking around and combat sections that
have your basic elder ring like slash, power up and slash,
roll out of the way, block, don't get hit too much,
but nothing more complex. It's not like Gosu Tsushima. There's
no stances, there's no you know. That's about it.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
That's correct, alright, Okay, then.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
We pass another checkpoint, yeah, which means we've defeated search
the King.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Of life flame skulled searcher.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Or is that the flame guy? I don't know. There's
what's the name of the raven liar u twister?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I forgot her name his name, but he has the
really cool symbol that looks like it's like a like
three curved little scimitars or something. It's really started. Get
me started on the cool well do get me.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Started, because it's my turn to rants, so I guess
get me started. Okay, tank that lawnmower cord.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Here we go, Rare.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
This is where we give our hontakes on my game.
Chomp chomp, chomp, feed me grass or I will die.
This is a uh, one of the more coherent rants
I'll have. I don't mean to mention it constantly, but
I don't know. I hopefully is a life changing thing
for me. So people tend to mention stuff like that,
(06:55):
at least in the afterglow of it. But I recently
I have struggled with ment health challenges myself. Three things,
or like a couple things come to mind. When I
was a kid, we all gave big reports and mine
was on depression and what it feels like and how
I struggle with depression ever since car accident when I
was a kid, so sustained brain damage and I've had
(07:15):
this mood disorder and like I, you know, I do
a podcast Tales from the Pit about this, and I
just am realizing as a thread, how powerful you know,
my our friend Abe has like father son stuff for
I'm sure whatever psychological reason. But one for me, for
obvious reasons is when media depicts, especially mental health challenges
(07:39):
that are similar to my own, with unerring accuracy or
uncanny insight. So powerful to me because I feel so
seen and being not alone in that kind of struggle
is huge for people, right, so I think even more
than people who don't struggle themselves with it, mental disorder
shit totally clicks with me. One of my favorite shows
(08:00):
in the last ten years as Patriot, that's about like
what if a spy thriller, but the guy has serious
mental disorder, and not in a gamified way, which is
how media usually does it. It's a bar that fills up,
or they're crazy like the Joker, but actual insight into
what it's like to struggle with mental illness, and this
game not only does that, but it posits like something
(08:23):
I think of frequently, what it would be like to
be She seems to have a pallette of things, but
probably Schitzo effective disorder in some way. What would it
be like to be schizophrenic? To hear voices that other
people don't hear, and see things that other people don't
see in ancient times when people didn't know what the
sun was and they believed God lived in that forest
(08:45):
over there and stuff. You know, witchcraft comes from stuff
like this. But then there's also cultures where there's evidence
that people like this were seers, were revered as shamans
or having a special ability, and this game tackles that
with a sophistication that's never really been rivaled in gaming,
(09:06):
and that was kind of the selling point. Like the
opening credits mentioned multiple mental health professionals who consulted and
helped write the game, and cultural and historical Norse mythologists
who I googled and who were like renowned right, like
they hired all the best people to try and to
make an adult sophisticated thing was clearly their intention, like
(09:29):
seriously dealing with mental health issues. So I mentioned my
own history because of course it hits me even more.
And that's the couch what I'm going to say next,
And I was going to go, oh, but that's okay,
replaying at this time, it's so tight and concise. I
had a profound experience with it because I just went
(09:52):
through for the first time in my life this intense
partial hospitalization program where I learned a bunch of psychological skills,
and I'm entering this new phase of my life life
with a lot of hope about making new skills stick
and being a new person and having so much more
joy and gratitude and happiness in my life on a
more regular basis because of these skills I learned. And
so obviously I'm like primed to play this game at
(10:14):
this exact time. So this is all to soften the
blow of me saying I think this is now the
best best told story in gaming period, better than the
last of us.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
WHOA okay, Like wow.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
The way the way the mental health issues are explored,
like the analogs, and the way that it slowly develops
into talking to her mother projected on the rocks, and
the fact that you learn this backstory that's really powerfully
and like really groundedly written, that's so stylish, like you
(10:51):
fall to the black and your reflection becomes Dillian and
he speaks to you, and you slowly understand the whole story.
You get transported to these other realms that rep and
very clear things that are going on in her situation.
The chorus of voices is so well written and performed,
and there's not and this makes we'll talk about the gameplay.
I'm talking about the story only, which of course is
(11:13):
a big piece for me. But there's no filler because
there's way less gameplay. There's not hours of and then
we kill a thousand guys, which kind of to me
is something every game does, and it does break their groundedness.
This game really feels grounded, like everything that's happening could
happen in real time to a person, especially when you
consider that the combat is figments of her imagination. Probably
(11:39):
the ending to me is powerfully moving. The fact that
it is the crumbling ash person that represents trauma and
it pans down and she lets go of Dillian's head
which represents her trauma, and it pans up and it's
her again. There are like storytelling and visual moves in
this that I think would stand up in film. This
would make a great movie. And the fact that the
(12:02):
developers have said that this was just basically a proof
of concept for the game they want to make, which
is called Senuas Saga is going to be a vast
open world game through this lens. I'm like, I think
this is the ip that I'm now most excited about
in my life. Like, I'm this is now it for me.
Saga is like I'm putting all my chips on that
(12:25):
for the next leg of what's important to me in gaming.
But as I said, it's because of all these reasons
that it totally speaks to me. It's also if you've
seen some of the Senu's Saga stuff, they're on the
cutting edge of face capture and acting technology in a
way that like La Neuar tried to be when it
came out, and Aloy is trying to be and I
think they're the best at it. Naughty Dog is also
(12:47):
incredible at getting emotion onto simulated faces. But the Senua Saga, shit,
it looks absolutely real and like the ogre standing up
that's like made of a mountain. Is just the visuals
are staggering to me, everything about it. I like that
it's more grounded and gritty, and Graham playing through it
this time made me go, oh, yeah, got a War
(13:09):
is like a cartoon, Like God a War is ridiculous
now to me after having played through Seny with Saga.
That's my rant.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Okay, I am deeply regretting letting you go first because
player two, Adam Ganzer coming in and I'm just I'm
gonna be straight up. I'm gonna I am not gonna
lie about my experience with this game. But I want
everyone out there to know that I do appreciate that
(13:38):
there are people out there who this game matters a
lot too, right, and Mike is one of them. Okay,
So I just that's I just need to say that
up top.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It matters so much that I'm bulletpro like it doesn't
matter what it okay, great, and I'm so glad.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
To hear that, because I hated this game. I really
did not like it. I didn't so I got asking.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Then I'll let you do your rant. Thanks. Come. Before
we started taping, you said you thought I'd love this episode.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Because it's because I think this episode is gonna be uh,
it's gonna favor your point of view a lot more
than mine, and I think it's gonna it's We're gonna
end up probably leaning more toward where you are than
where I am, because not all the way ahead. Yah, yeah,
thank you. So I'll tell you what I mean by
(14:24):
I hated this game. I don't think this is a
bad game. I want that to be very clear. I
actually think it's a good game. I did not have
any fun playing it. I found it extremely miserable. It's
a very miserable experience. Now it's miserable on purpose because
it's about a person going through extreme torment and through
(14:45):
mindbreaking torment with their own mental illness to kind of
come to terms with what has happened to them. And
they've done an incredible job at rendering that experience. I
don't have personal experience with it, but it has the
ring of authenticity. They've done incredible performance stuff. Like Mike said,
(15:05):
they've done really cool visualizations of that world and the
architecture and structure of that world and what it might
look like. I played a little bit of this game
when it came out in twenty seventeen, so before the
graphics have advanced to the point of god A War Ragnarok,
and I thought at that time this game was astounding looking.
(15:26):
Like now it doesn't quite look as sharper as beautiful
as some of the more recent Triple A games that
have come out, But this game was gorgeous and cool
looking when it came out, and it still holds up.
It's just not very fun. That's about my ultimate critique
of it. And I know that that critique is that
some people are gonna instantly be enraged with me about it, Okay,
(15:49):
but like, honestly, it's not very fun. The combat is
not very good. The puzzles I actually liked quite a bit,
but you're sort of constantly drowning in this pain, vague,
obtuse whispering that is miserable and uncomfortable. Now as an
artistic experience, that has tremendous value as a piece of art.
(16:11):
This game has tremendous value because it's achieving something that
few people would try and even fewer would succeed at.
And it has absolutely done that. Absolutely it has captured
in a meaningful way, the process of mental illness. My
(16:32):
problem with it is that I don't want to have
that experience as a gamer. I don't want to have
that experience. It's like, I'll put it to you this way,
and I don't. I'm not invalidating it as art. As
a game, I don't want to be miserable. Like if
somebody came out with Crucifixion Simulator five thousand and was like,
it's really like that, it's really like getting crucified, I'd say, sure,
(16:54):
I don't want to play that. That's not a fun
thing to experience. And while that would be less meaningful
to many, then this game is. Because this game does
meaningfully render a terrible, miserable experience that many human beings have,
that's still not fun. Like, it's still not a fun
thing to do. And I get it. Not all games
need to be fun, and I get it. Not that
(17:16):
art has a responsibility to portray the dark as well
as the light, and this game's absolutely doing that, and
I can't take it away from that. And I want
to spend as much of the episode as we can
talking about the meaning behind what they're attempting to do.
But I just gotta be honest with you, guys. It
isn't fun. It's not fun, and it's not actually very
deep as a game experience either. And I think that
(17:41):
video games have some obligation to entertain. I do think
that this game did not meet those obligations in my opinion. Now,
perhaps the artistic obligations to say something meaningful surpass that.
I know that's what Mike would argue. I think I
would argue it too as a filmmaker. But I just
got to represent the other side, and I feel like
i've done that. Please don't hear me diminishing your emotional
(18:02):
experience with this game. If you loved it, I'm not
doing that. I'm just saying it's not fun. That's my rent.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Actually, I disagree with you way less than I anticipated.
I think A fair thing we'll have to discuss is
it's such a good, tight story. It would make such
a good movie. In other words, why you talk about
just a movie? It could just be a movie, there's
almost less of an argument for it being a game.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
We should talk about that.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on the other side of the break,
a vasty shipheads land.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Ho.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I don't know, we'll be back all right, we're here
on the land.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Hey, just like that.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Wait, you're still podcasting. This is we've passed another checkpoint,
which means we're pulling like a lightsaber from a tree.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
We're walking through a stuff portal and we're seeing there's
a bridge.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
There where there were or something I love about the
game game on, just to kick the kind of conversation
of one of the only games or pieces of media
that treats Vikings like the fucking horrifying Yes it does.
They must have been to encounter agree. Instead of anti
heroes where it's cool to be a pirate, it's cool
to be a viking, the Vikings in this are like a.
(19:17):
I mean, they're big men who come and rape people
and burn your house down, and they're not like they
traumat they're monsters.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yea. They traumatize the existing communities that have no other protection.
And that's what happened. You know, the Northman tried to
have its cake and eat it too. That was a
movie that came out a year or so ago where.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
They're like, hey, we did one rape and pillage. Yeah
we strangled that way, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
But then you know it's now basically yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
So I feel like we it's like we should spend
some time celebrating the game a little bit, and but
then we want to hit the parts where we don't agree, right, okay,
So like, can I just stipulate right up top as
an artistic endeavor to render mental health? I've never seen
(20:04):
a better piece of media than this, I don't think
have you? Can you think of.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
One other than that GameCube one where you go crazy
and see shit? I forget that Eternal Darkness Sanity's Requiem.
That is the one we're talking about, right, Eternal Darkness. Yeah,
Eternal Darkness Sanity is requiem. I mean, but I kill
yeah obviously, yes, I think so. Well, I guess I'll
(20:30):
save it. So the par whori disagree is immediately the
most interesting to me. But yes, and I want to
add it's done with such love. It really is done
in the sensible way that the writer in me loves ye,
where everything is accounted for as a plot element, meaning
technically you play as a new voice insinuous head, the
voice of the trauma that's developed since uh Dillian was
(20:52):
killed to help her see this quest through, and the
chorus of voices in her head welcomes you, and they
have differentiable personalities. Want your abuser voice, which I have,
like the self loathing voice is like a demonic voice. Yeah,
and that one uh only says that you're not gonna
make it and shit. And if you play this game
(21:12):
with headphones, they're separated, they're stereo separated, and it's quite
an effect. Everything is done with such love and thoroughness
and attention to detail to answer your question, yes, and
that's what I'm like. The last of us story I'll
stop doing this now remains incredible. But to me, there's
something about the fact that in the middle you play
(21:35):
a bunch of video game levels that, of course the
show draws us like that's the parts they cut right,
because the show's right, and Senyas feels like a game
that did cut those parts. Now, the trade off is,
so you're saying I would say gameplay, I.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Would say it didn't. But but okay, continue your because you're.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Mostly too much too much, like she kills a believable
number of bandies to get through her, you know what
I mean versus the.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Last Every combat sequence the more grounded in reality than
anything in Last of Us. I totally agree, but I
like they're all structured to be uh connected to her
mental suffering. Like, so it's all justifiable, whereas Last of
Us is occasionally a video game. But I do want
to make the point before we go any further. Last
(22:22):
of Us is one of the rare games that makes
meaning out of killing, and so we're not actually picking
on the right game if we're going to if we're
gonna undermine the gamification of things, there's so many other examples.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, my other point was I was so much more
engaged in the ending of Last of Us from like
the hospital point.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Way more word Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Because no, I don't mean than this I'm saying than
the rest of the game. Like I didn't care that
much about the giraffes or the blah blah blah. The
show actually rendered in a way where I cared more
about Henry, for example, than I did in the game.
It just seemed like a thing that happened.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Everybody's saying that right now, I don't feel that way
but okay.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Interesting, And then the last of us climax is so
astoundingly clever and such a good twist, but like a
subtle internal twist that feels so adult and sophisticated and
trusts you to read subtext and shit that I immediately go, well,
that's the best game story of all time, and I
see a lot of reasons I stand behind that, But
(23:22):
this is the last time I much but like but
Senua's because of the subject matter. I must admit, I'm
that engaged in from beginning to end, and I don't
want people to think that it's only the voices. They
manifest so many analogies that are spawned on r that
is what it feels like to be depressed and depressive
and in the way like she sees situations and tackle situations.
(23:45):
At one point, Dillion's head starts breathing again. Everything like
I said it dumb before, but like she pulls the
sword from the tree and it means something. Symbolically, everything
means something. That was my favorite part of the game,
But I love that. I think part of the reason
it was my favorite part of the game is because
it's the one time you feel like you're building to
something hopeful. The rest of the game. You really don't
(24:07):
like it.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It is it is, except the end is a wash
in despair like it is spare no, I just want
to It is as a tone, that's what it.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Is, as we say, as we lavish praise on the story.
I guess I should say my one knock is that
it does this installment makes it feel like trauma, that
mind shattering trauma and mental illness can be resolved in
(24:39):
one great cathartic act of like confronting the trauma, which
I think even the mental health professionals involved would say, yes,
that's an oversimplication of the process. Senoa has years of
work ahead of her if indeed she'll ever you know,
get in a healthy relationship with her mental illness. And
then there's even more progressive people who would say her
mental illness empowers her in this cultural context. That's you know,
(25:02):
who are we to jut or like, There's a lot
of different takes on it, but I guess I would
say that's my one thing that feels reductive. It's it's
not good storytelling, But finding your way out of that
dark place is actually years of practice, like going to
a mental gym. It's not like you finally admit that
you hate your father and now you're good.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Right, and now I know, yeah, now I know why
I was sad. I agree. But if you don't do that,
you don't have a game story like like I it's
it's the problem of story structure as applied to this
carrying late and stuff, and like to me, it's like, look,
if we're going to grant any license for for art
(25:41):
to have a structure that is pleasing, uh and and
to tackle the subject, I think that's an acceptable one.
But I just want to get out there again as
early as I can in the episode. I do not
speak from a from a place of intimate knowledge about
this level of mental health issues. I've had my own
mental health issues, but they're not they they haven't been
(26:04):
like this experience. So I'm gonna be a bit of
an outsider, and I'm gonna be careful not to be
too judgy about that. Like I'm just putting that out
there now.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Sure I do have a bit clear on the same front.
I struggle with pretty extreme mood disorders, but not schizophrenica
or hallucinations, although it does run in my family and
I've had a lot of experience witnessing it.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, I've seen a little bit of schizophrenia as well
from a neighbor that I had a few years ago,
and it was upsetting. So I do want to I
want to be gentle if there's anybody out there who's
listening to the episode and feels really connected to this property,
like I please, I know you're there, I hear you,
I see you. I'm not dismissing you when I with
(26:47):
my objections to this game. So I want to I
want to start with the question of is this story
structure the best game story of all time? Which is
that was your feeling about it? And I'll tell you
my objection to it, though I do think it's very good.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
As you want to do, you're training it objectively, and
I'll have to note that I couch that very thoroughly.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, right, it's your opinion, and I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm just saying here's my counterpoint to that, and see
what you think of it. So I think this game
is one of the only ones that's justifiable for creating
what i'll call a mystery box technique. You know, it's
employing a mystery box technique, And what I mean by
that is it's obscuring what the actual story is and
(27:31):
slowly revealing the pieces of the story as you go
through a process of mystery vague hint at it, and
the joy of it is realizing what the story is.
It's a valid storytelling technique to a degree. It's what
every mystery is. To a degree. It's whatever noir's story is.
(27:53):
But noir stories tend to be about revealing the crime,
and there's still a layer of story where you're the
character is processing it as they're.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Going sacrifice something personal as well.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah right, yeah, and so it sort of creates two experiences,
if you will, whereas this is sort of one primary experience,
so you really are immersed in the mystery box of it.
A mystery box is a difficult genre. It's not always successful.
I find it often very frustrating. This is a this
(28:26):
is in the middle of great and frustrating to me,
Like it has good reasons for it, but I do
think it kind of goes on and on and on.
I do think it has a little bit of like
a Revenant quality, you know what I mean. You've seen
the movie The Revenant, right.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yep, obviously love the craft, and I mean to porn,
I mean, is great, but I have the same problem
with it I have with Mandy, which is then if
you break down the story beats, it's just you killed
someone I love, I find you, I kill you. I'm like,
that's not interesting enough.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And I would say this is not that different in
the This is I lost somebody I love. I can't
deal with it. Now I can deal with it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
But I'm mentally ill, right right, which makes it for me,
which justifies it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, yeah, and again it's justified. It's not like bad art,
where it's not where the premise doesn't match the structure.
It's just that the experience of it is uh, frustrating
and vague if you're not immensely connecting to the experience,
like if you're not like I get this, I feel
this way, you're like.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Of it as as art, like, uh, you know, a
part of me is also just like tipping my hat
to man. Those crazy bastards did it the mental illness seriously,
and they treated it with respect. That's so hard to
do in this medium. Good for you guys is an
element as well, of course.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
And they deserve that.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, they deserve that for Oh yeah, I mean it's
a huge accomplishment for that. I do want to say
that that does leave it with So I would say
it's at the cost of the gameplay, because I I
guess because it's my second time through, I knew what
to do all the time, so I did plow through
the filler quote unquote, not filler. Those are the parts
(30:08):
you would call the game the game traditionally, but I
mean the parts in between the story. I went through
so quickly that to me it felt almost like an unbroken,
like long movie, and I loved it that way, but
I remember the first time it did take me longer
to figure out some of the stuff. So you're right
that if this were literally a movie, there'd be scenes
where you're like, well, that's twenty minutes enough and cut that.
(30:31):
So it's not a movie in the way that a
video game isn't a movie. But it did do story
at the cost of gameplay. And I will say, as
much as I'm excited to see the universe, no, no,
I ideally would be both. I got fun too. I
just can get by without it. If story is like
art is important to me, No, sure, and to you.
(30:51):
But I mean it's addictive to me or something, or
it can be enough that I'll overlook fun factor, as
you know. But I'll just say I said earlier that
I'm super excited for Saga because I want to see
it expanded about I'll say in the same breath, they
haven't really proven, Like I'm deeply concerned about. This has
no RPG or upgrading elements at all, which you don't
(31:14):
necessarily need. It makes it more grounded and realistic, right,
almost no HUD all this stuff. But can that sustain
a much longer, more epic game where.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I don't see how much of stuff?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I don't see how there because they're obviously committed to
not gamifying it. But if you don't gamify it, then
it can't be fifty hours long. Then why are we
doing a game?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
And what's the what's the What's I worry about that?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
For sure?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
You know, I do so like that. That's my fear.
Is like, Okay, so I see every reason to pour
horsepower into making this the best looking, best acted, best
camera thing version of it. I see the reasons for that,
but I don't know what story justifies a larger experience.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Here or what activity?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, either onelation, but you know what, like, look, I
I'm gonna be not a prick. I'm gonna trust the
artists who have done something interesting to keep doing something
interesting and say I'm excited to see that.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, definitely give it a shot.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
You know, like we're gonna get Call of Duty fifty
this year, so you know, I'm okay with somebody trying
something meaningful. And sure, I'm okay with that. So that's fine.
I just I guess, like to me, the question becomes
is an artistic experience enough for gamers to call this
(32:34):
a great game? Like do you feel the obligation? Do
you feel game designers have an obligation to entertain at all?
And do you think this game does that?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I feel that games currently because I still feel like
we're in the infancy of the medium more or less.
I feel like I, as a pop culture analyst or proselytizer,
whatever you want to say, have an obligation to try
and honor things which expand or stretch the boundaries of
what the medium can do and prove that it's a
(33:06):
medium just like literature or film, they can do anything.
So I favor novelty and like, well, you haven't seen that.
You don't see that every day, So for me, it's enough.
And then in the same breath exact if some if
the guy next to me goes it's just not fun,
as he often does because Adam's the guy next to me,
(33:26):
I go, oh, yeah, that's also true, or sometimes argue
that it's not fun that I well, it was fun
enough for me. Not in this case, I see how
it's not enough. I worry about it being longer. There's
just not much gameplay here.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I want. I want to talk about the parts of
the gameplay that I thought were good, because there are some.
So I think that almost all the puzzle conceits were
really cool, like the optical Illusion conceit. It's sort of
like it's doing things that a lot of games have
done where they sort of play with reality, like where
you know, from a certain angle, there's just things that
(34:03):
exist in the space that didn't before. It's almost like
a far cry fever dream, you know, because like they
have so many of those, it's like you're playing one
of those the entire game. And I think it's done
really well, and the puzzles are fun and interesting. There
are a lot of like perspective based puzzles or looking
through the mirror, like lens of Truth type stuff from
(34:26):
Okarina of Time.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Like, so it's borrowing from some other places, but it's
definitely constructed in a way that I felt was rewarding
and basically never got tired of them. I kind of
liked all the puzzles for the most part.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The puzzles are good.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, yeah, well that's most of the game. And I
think that I'd actually like to see a lot of
games steal from these puzzles because I think they were
actually pretty cool. The combat is very bad, I think,
and I'll say why. The main problem with it, aside
from it being repetitive, is that they went to a
(35:00):
super long lens, like from your character to the other character, So, like,
how do I explain this from a filmmaking.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Hard to gauge the distance.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It's really hard to gauge the distance because they've compressed
the space with this super long lens like a seventy five.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
The vikings are so cool.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
They are awesome looking, no question, the character designs are awesome,
But because they've compressed the space and the camera's really
tight on you, like you're in a tight medium. It
really it gets hard to judge how far away you
are from things, and to compound that, they're constantly introducing
enemies behind you. And the only warning you ever get,
because there's no HUD in this game, is a whispering
(35:38):
voice in your ear telling you duck or like block
it down behind you, and like you start to learn
how to like hear those voices when they're helping you.
But again, the game really does drown you in a
bad stimuli for a while, so it feels like you
get no tutorials for anything, you know, even.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Though I have a fast brain and intrusive looping thoughts
and like I'm getting tested for ADHD and stuff. So
I'm like, that's what it's like.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I believe it is.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
The voice has never stopped completely.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Completely, my friend, And it gives me new compassion for
your life. It really did. I was thinking of you
the whole time. I don't mean that in a condescending way.
I hope that didn't come across that way like.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I've known not at all.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, it really gave me some new compassion. Nothing for
your situation. I don't have that exact experience, and I
found it very unpleasant. I was like, I don't want
to deal with this, so my heart goes out to you.
It was a frustrating way to be trained to do
the game, like intrusive thoughts were a frustrating tutorial and
(36:38):
then a frustrating game trigger that would normally be a
graphic or a button like push the button out, you know, like,
and that didn't happen. So I was constantly getting whacked
from behind by some ghoul faced muscle viking. And that's
just frustrating. Is it the end of the world? No, No,
you can overlook it. It's not so broken that it's unplayable.
(36:59):
It's just annoying, you know. So, yeah, I just wanted
to get those pieces out.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
All right.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah. Do you think, like, how do I ask this
question without being a jerk? Do you think there's any
limits on what is a worthwhile negative experience that art
can pursue in this medium?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I don't know what you so like I.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Use the example in my rant of Crucifixion Simulator.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Right, oh yeah, I talk about this all the time. Well,
first of all, having played through Ari four VR and
being really I'm on lock now with I don't get
motion sick and I like the scary like I'm good.
I love VR. I'm fully acclimated. So four VR was
a delight.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I think about this a lot now when I play
these types of games. This would be a great VR
title because the hordlessness and the groundedness, if you swung
the sword yourself for real, that would be enough. That
would make it engaging enough that the whole game would
feel I think flawless.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
But it's not.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
So it's just pressing some buttons and it's you know,
so yeah, I agree with all that. And I've talked
about speaking of VR, which is why I bring it up.
I think it will be weird for me, and I
don't know if this will be considered old fashioned or whatever.
Uh not that there should be limits to art, and
(38:23):
people have always tried to do this. There's like the
Story of the Eye, which is a book written way
back in the day where you're like, oh, I thought
people were proper in those times. No, humans have always
tried to imagine the most extreme thing they could, right,
It's just natural. So it's a story about like cutting
out a guy's eyeball and shoving it up your genitals
and stuff written in like Victorian England, and it was
(38:45):
passed down because a it has philosophical underpinnings, but be
just to show that, like, people have always been nasty,
even in times where we think of it as repressed,
like the fifties in America or what have you. Yes,
that exists, but there's always an underground of secret, horrible stuff.
And I wonder about like it will inevitably happen, so
(39:06):
like in thirty years, what if there's haptic feedback and
it is photorealistic and there's a vr rig that is
as incredible as we think, and someone's like, here's an
app that makes that you can just like kill a
child in a room with a hammer. And I'm telling you, dude,
it feels really like it would really feel like to
do that. I'm like, well, what what are we doing here? So, yes,
(39:28):
there's a limit, I don't know where it is, okay,
but we're headed towards it.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
We're going to find out, We're going to find out
what it is we're going.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
But I've often thought about child Murder Simulator and like
who would play that?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Some team?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Sure, because when I was seventeen eighteen nineteen, I wanted
those experiences like I went online searching for horrible shit. Yeah,
and I don't think that's a I think that's a
fairly common experience.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
The liberal, the liberal in me is. The liberal in
me wants to be permissive for nearly anything, as long
as the endeavor itself is attempting to make a meaningful comment,
not even a comment I agree with, just a meaningful.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Good faith comment.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, it's a good faith, meaningful comment.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
That's it. If your only thing is to get lulls
or to make someone angry, you're allowed to do that.
But I'm also allowed to think you have some kind
of psychological challenge that makes you feel the need to
do that, because making people angry with no points has
no points or whatever you know, or if you haven't
grown out of that, that's like your deal to work out.
(40:34):
But as long as you're making a good faith comment
that you really believe, and these people are clearly trying
as hard as they can, I respect the endeavor.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Is I don't think any reasonable person would say the
endeavor is meaningless or that the endeavor isn't bad faith
or bad So I'm repeating myself here, But you know,
the game is good as a piece of art for
that reason, but I do like I come back to
games are for fun, and in that way, it's pushing
(41:09):
the limits of how little fun is expected out of
a game. And you know this one very.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Very best game of all would do both.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yes, the best game of all would do both correct,
which is why we like Last of Us so much,
because us trying to do both.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
And it and I said best story, I wouldn't say
best game because Last of Us. The gameplay is actually fun.
I know there's people who say it's not the most
fun ever, but I find it thoroughly sneaking around, especially
in two, sneaking around, killing people, shooting, and it's it's clean,
it's good gameplay.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And I've heard people infect on a recent i GM
podcast I happen to listen to, argue that the game
has become less meaningful because of this the TV show,
because the game itself is not that good.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
It's just the story that we're represented in the show. Yeah,
and just spend hours going around.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I disagree that in every way.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
No, it's fun clearing out a room, and Last of
Us too is really fun and meaningful.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
It's the choice to kill is meaningful there, just like
the choice to kill in this game is meaningful, you know,
like you're killing because it's the only way to overcome
the intrusions, or in case.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
It just does the thing that so many games still do,
where you single handedly kill more human beings without yourself
getting killed than anyone has in the history of their
Like you kill seven hundred people without getting injured.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
That's not possible, luck, it's stupid work that way.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah. Anyway, that's all video games though, So I think
it's time for a second break. We'll get into our
final segment where we will decide whether aliens get to
see us at our weakest and most vulnerable. So we'll
see on the other side. I shouldn't even have said weakest.
(42:56):
We're back this one option ship, but most vulnerable pure
Yeah yeah, yeah, Well I just went through this program
about having a healthy relationship with your mental challenges, so
that's good.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I would argue, by the way, for those of you
who are thinking of trying this and haven't, so, one
thing that I think is mandatory is you should play
this with headphones if you can headphone. The sound design,
by design, I don't just mean what's in the soundscape,
but the way that it's mixed like, so the way
that the sound occur in your audio, like your three
(43:28):
hundred and sixty degree audio sphere, is meaningful and it
is really rewarding to play it with headphones. And if
you don't do that, I think you're missing out on
something very essential to what makes the game great. You know,
so you should try that anyway. It didn't mean to
distract us. Are we passing our final checkpoint? Mike?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
We are passing our final checkpoint, which means we're healed,
We're good. Now, it's over.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
You feel great?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
That's goods so bad if the sequel was just her
having a wonderful time in the village, well, it seems
from the little peaks we've seen that she's become a leader.
So I imagine they see her as some kind of
seer leader or shaman leader. But what if it's no,
she's like normal, she's neuro normal. Now, I doubt that
(44:18):
would be a mistake.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
I don't think they're gonna.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
A huge mistake, big mistake. Huge. This is Keeper Deleety,
where we decide if the game makes it on a
celestial hard drive, the aliens will see in a million
years and judge humanity. Thereby, it's not full yet. It
can hold one hundred games, so we're still playing with
house money and probably will be for another I don't
know year, but then we'll start making real, tough choices.
(44:40):
I'll go because it's an easy answer because I do
value story so much, and I've already done this in
the past, like I've put not fun games drive, and
I'll try again. I would keep it. It makes choices
that are fair. It's like if ari Aster direct did
The Northman. It's uh. It makes choices that in film
(45:04):
most competent directors do, but are almost unheard of in games.
Like she collapses and everything around her fades to black
because she's unconscious, but she's dreaming, So in her unconsciousness,
she's in this black void and her reflection is beneath her,
and her reflection turns into Dillian and they have a
(45:25):
brief conversation about how he's her only support, well, he's
visually her only support in the space. Shit like that
where you're like, yeah, movies do that all the time,
but games don't. And I love shit like that, so
I'll try to keep it.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Filmmaker, and you loves this game, God, this one. Really,
this is a really tough one for me. I do
think the story is transcendent and artistically viable, but this
is not a good game like the Game of It's
not good like that. I agreet that, kens I just
(46:01):
I think on a celestial hard drive it only contains
one hundred games. Even with the extreme heights that it
reaches in terms of storytelling, the game itself being so
rudimentary and bland and frustrating and miserable really has to
count against it. So I think I'm gonna delete it.
(46:23):
Pitch me this again if you really hurt, If it
hurts you and you care, pitch it again. I bet
I'll be because I'm gonna feel guilty about it.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Or like you'd think about it.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
I'm still on it, but I really feel like as.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
A don't be yourself as a custodian.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
I feel like I got to say no to this one.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
I think I don't think I'll bring it up until
Saga comes ouck okay, because I do have a lot
of faith in this team. Of course, the ability to
tell a great story doesn't always conspire to make lightning
in a bottle where you're also great at game mechanics.
But I'm hoping that they see that a longer, more
ambitious game will need more ambitious gameplay. It's amazing what
they did that it considering it's a double A or indie,
(47:02):
you know, however you want to categorize it. So I'll
probably wait for Saga, because maybe sogaybe it'll cross, maybe
Saga will fix that.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
It's possible, and if it does, wonderful. But it also
might be a sort of Horizon Forbidden West situation where
it's like mmmm, or like the main conceit here just
isn't gonna quite make it, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And Forbidden West still very good, but it didn't like
Top the first one in the.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Way no I thought it would, yes, and it didn't.
So but just for all of you guys out there
who have never played this game and might be interested
in it, it is to me it's the game equivalent
of something like the Museum of Jurassic Technology, a reference
I bring up from time to time.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Which is very few people.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It's a Los Angeles It's a Los Angeles museum where
the experience of it is unpleasant, but it has like
such focused purpose that it's actually it's great in that way.
And you know, so if you have a personal experience
with these issues, or if you're looking for a really
interesting artistic statement about these issues, this is a great
(48:07):
game to try, and I think you'll enjoy it for
those reasons, right, So I definitely recommend it.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, I would. Also, it's a magical realism museum about
museums and curation, so it's technology. So you go, you
look at the displays and you're like, it looks like
a museum display, but it's a satire of it, right,
Like I don't understand what the display is analyzing, or
the thing it's analyzing is not true, Like I know
that didn't happen. And then you slowly realize the theme
(48:36):
of the museum is curation itself.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
It's just a weird place.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
But when you're high, for sure, But it's when I live.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Down the block, like so we would just smoke a
giant on the walk there.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Of course, that's right, you did live really close to it. Yeah,
it's it's an awesome experience once you realize that, though,
Like it's like, oh, yeah, this is so funny and interesting.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
That's why I spoil it. I actually think it's more
awarding knowing going in, not mystery bosing.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Fair enough if you've listened and maybe somehow missed it.
I had a great time after about forty five minutes
of like what the hell is this? When I did
realize what it was, and I was like, oh, yeah, anyway,
that's it. Are we done? Sway?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Well, that's right. But there's way more of us jabbering
on on a wide variety of topics, including a show
I do called Tales from the Pit about mental health challenges,
and I have a whopper of an episode coming out
where I'm going to talk about my recent foray into
(49:36):
like just really crushing it and developing all kinds of
new skills. And I thought about send you a sacrifice
a lot as I was as I was doing this
concentrated period of developing a healthier relationship with my own issues. Anyway,
there's also a bunch of other stuff. We talk about
movies mostly, but Adam does one with our friend Shirine Fish,
who you may know is like a YouTube video content creator,
(50:00):
just about friendship, so that could be like albums. It's
mostly music or movies or shows, all kinds of stuff. Anyway,
The free stuff you can find just by searching small beans,
the stuff that's behind the paywall, by which I mean
you give us three to five dollars a month. No
big deal is over a patreon dot com slash small beans.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That's right. Plug on, Mike, I'm gonna drop your skull
off the cliff, but in a good way.
Hey, bingo bango, sugar in the gas tank.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Your ex husband stricks again.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Everyone our age you knows that sound bite, that's the
best one. Speaking of we mentioned last episode we taped,
I don't care which order of the audience. Here's it
in game called dust the tail of the Wired West,
And there's a sound you make whenever you enter the
shop to sell or buy stuff that is wind chimes
going ding ding, did ding ding, did ding ding ding,
(00:52):
And that exact sound has played in my head a
couple times a day for the for thirty years.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Are you curious?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's like a sound effect that is stuck in my head.
It's also kind of a Willhelm screen because I hear
it used in other in shows and movies as chimes.
It must just be a studio, you know, like.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Library. Yeah, yeah, it could be that. It could be
it's a sound library. I mean, hearing things in your
head is an appropriate intro and a professionally executed one
as a as always No, but to the game we're
going to be talking about today, which is hell Blade,
Sendua's Sacrifice or send Wa. How do you pronounce your name?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Is it Senua? I've heard sen you a most often okay, Sen,
me too.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Hell Blade, Sendua's Sacrifice a tremendous I think you can
call it indie game that is supposedly receiving a sequel
that deals very famously with some mental health issues, and
we're going to be talking about all those issues as
we cover the hell out of this game. You want
(02:01):
to snap right into format, Mike and get in to
tell me. I'm a bit Do you feel like doing
that piece or should I do it?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I don't care who does it as long as we
pass a checkpoint first, which means the black oil of
complete hopeless despair has made its way to our heart,
and it really has in the madness.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
And so much whispering, so much oaken whispering. You can
do it, Michael Summer.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
First, the backstory I'm curious to I'll say this. Yeah,
I worked at IGN for three years as a video creator.
If you're interested, I did an in depth video on
Sendua's Sacrifice and you can go check it out there.
It is basically a longer version of what I think
Adams should do because I already done it. Google it.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Okay, great, then I guess I will do it. So
here we go, hell Blade, send you Us. Sacrifice is
a twenty seventeen action adventure game. It was released by
Ninja Theory. It is essentially a story of a young
Viking woman who is journeying into Hell, ostensibly to recover
(03:08):
her dead lover. As she does so, she encounters various obstacles,
most of which seem like they are related to her
mental illness. And I say mental illness because the game
eventually sort of makes it very clear it is a
mental illness issue, that there is a metaphor for mental
illness going on in this game. She's hearing voices she
(03:31):
doesn't know who to listen to, and all of the
challenges seem to slowly reveal some of the backstory that
led her to this point, as she comes to confront
just sort of her lost faith in her society, specifically
her father and the religion of their society with the
gods and stuff, and grieves over the irretrievable loss of
(03:55):
this young man who was killed by invaders. Much takes
place in a Norse mythological Norse mythological setting, uh and
and I would say is more grounded in a lot
of ways than say, like God of War. But drawing
on similar.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Uh you say that easy to say.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yes, Yes, it's more grounded. It's more grounded, but it's
drawing on similar imagery and certainly similar stories. Even in fact,
it tells some of the same stories. And that was
kind of fun about it. And uh, it was a
big hit. It's not a very long game. It's between
eight and twelve hours, I want to say. And it
(04:36):
was surprise hit. I believe it was an Xbox exclusive.
Is that true? No, it was not. It was on
PlayStation two. Okay, great, but it's it's what it's self
described as an independent Triple A game. It does feel
like that. And we're going to see a sequel soon.
And that's it. Now you're educated. Have I missed anything?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Mike? Is there.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Watch me? Watch about you? Is there anything you want
to add to it? To the summary?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I guess, just because I'd rather get into the meat
of it immediately. But gameplay is mostly walking around and
doing puzzles that are like visualizing rooms up or a
thing that keeps disappearing. You follow it, kind of like
The Lost Woods and Breath of the Wild, or you
basically figure out what you need to look at or
(05:28):
what you need to follow or how you need to
proceed by climbing or walking around and combat sections that
have your basic elder ring like slash, power up and slash,
roll out of the way, block, don't get hit too much,
but nothing more complex. It's not like Gosu Tsushima. There's
no stances, there's no you know. That's about it.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
That's correct, alright, Okay, then.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
We pass another checkpoint, yeah, which means we've defeated search
the King.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Of life flame skulled searcher.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Or is that the flame guy? I don't know. There's
what's the name of the raven liar u twister?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I forgot her name his name, but he has the
really cool symbol that looks like it's like a like
three curved little scimitars or something. It's really started. Get
me started on the cool well do get me.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Started, because it's my turn to rants, so I guess
get me started. Okay, tank that lawnmower cord.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Here we go, Rare.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
This is where we give our hontakes on my game.
Chomp chomp, chomp, feed me grass or I will die.
This is a uh, one of the more coherent rants
I'll have. I don't mean to mention it constantly, but
I don't know. I hopefully is a life changing thing
for me. So people tend to mention stuff like that,
(06:55):
at least in the afterglow of it. But I recently
I have struggled with ment health challenges myself. Three things,
or like a couple things come to mind. When I
was a kid, we all gave big reports and mine
was on depression and what it feels like and how
I struggle with depression ever since car accident when I
was a kid, so sustained brain damage and I've had
(07:15):
this mood disorder and like I, you know, I do
a podcast Tales from the Pit about this, and I
just am realizing as a thread, how powerful you know,
my our friend Abe has like father son stuff for
I'm sure whatever psychological reason. But one for me, for
obvious reasons is when media depicts, especially mental health challenges
(07:39):
that are similar to my own, with unerring accuracy or
uncanny insight. So powerful to me because I feel so
seen and being not alone in that kind of struggle
is huge for people, right, so I think even more
than people who don't struggle themselves with it, mental disorder
shit totally clicks with me. One of my favorite shows
(08:00):
in the last ten years as Patriot, that's about like
what if a spy thriller, but the guy has serious
mental disorder, and not in a gamified way, which is
how media usually does it. It's a bar that fills up,
or they're crazy like the Joker, but actual insight into
what it's like to struggle with mental illness, and this
game not only does that, but it posits like something
(08:23):
I think of frequently, what it would be like to
be She seems to have a pallette of things, but
probably Schitzo effective disorder in some way. What would it
be like to be schizophrenic? To hear voices that other
people don't hear, and see things that other people don't
see in ancient times when people didn't know what the
sun was and they believed God lived in that forest
(08:45):
over there and stuff. You know, witchcraft comes from stuff
like this. But then there's also cultures where there's evidence
that people like this were seers, were revered as shamans
or having a special ability, and this game tackles that
with a sophistication that's never really been rivaled in gaming,
(09:06):
and that was kind of the selling point. Like the
opening credits mentioned multiple mental health professionals who consulted and
helped write the game, and cultural and historical Norse mythologists
who I googled and who were like renowned right, like
they hired all the best people to try and to
make an adult sophisticated thing was clearly their intention, like
(09:29):
seriously dealing with mental health issues. So I mentioned my
own history because of course it hits me even more.
And that's the couch what I'm going to say next,
And I was going to go, oh, but that's okay,
replaying at this time, it's so tight and concise. I
had a profound experience with it because I just went
(09:52):
through for the first time in my life this intense
partial hospitalization program where I learned a bunch of psychological skills,
and I'm entering this new phase of my life life
with a lot of hope about making new skills stick
and being a new person and having so much more
joy and gratitude and happiness in my life on a
more regular basis because of these skills I learned. And
so obviously I'm like primed to play this game at
(10:14):
this exact time. So this is all to soften the
blow of me saying I think this is now the
best best told story in gaming period, better than the
last of us.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
WHOA okay, Like wow.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
The way the way the mental health issues are explored,
like the analogs, and the way that it slowly develops
into talking to her mother projected on the rocks, and
the fact that you learn this backstory that's really powerfully
and like really groundedly written, that's so stylish, like you
(10:51):
fall to the black and your reflection becomes Dillian and
he speaks to you, and you slowly understand the whole story.
You get transported to these other realms that rep and
very clear things that are going on in her situation.
The chorus of voices is so well written and performed,
and there's not and this makes we'll talk about the gameplay.
I'm talking about the story only, which of course is
(11:13):
a big piece for me. But there's no filler because
there's way less gameplay. There's not hours of and then
we kill a thousand guys, which kind of to me
is something every game does, and it does break their groundedness.
This game really feels grounded, like everything that's happening could
happen in real time to a person, especially when you
consider that the combat is figments of her imagination. Probably
(11:39):
the ending to me is powerfully moving. The fact that
it is the crumbling ash person that represents trauma and
it pans down and she lets go of Dillian's head
which represents her trauma, and it pans up and it's
her again. There are like storytelling and visual moves in
this that I think would stand up in film. This
would make a great movie. And the fact that the
(12:02):
developers have said that this was just basically a proof
of concept for the game they want to make, which
is called Senuas Saga is going to be a vast
open world game through this lens. I'm like, I think
this is the ip that I'm now most excited about
in my life. Like, I'm this is now it for me.
Saga is like I'm putting all my chips on that
(12:25):
for the next leg of what's important to me in gaming.
But as I said, it's because of all these reasons
that it totally speaks to me. It's also if you've
seen some of the Senu's Saga stuff, they're on the
cutting edge of face capture and acting technology in a
way that like La Neuar tried to be when it
came out, and Aloy is trying to be and I
think they're the best at it. Naughty Dog is also
(12:47):
incredible at getting emotion onto simulated faces. But the Senua Saga, shit,
it looks absolutely real and like the ogre standing up
that's like made of a mountain. Is just the visuals
are staggering to me, everything about it. I like that
it's more grounded and gritty, and Graham playing through it
this time made me go, oh, yeah, got a War
(13:09):
is like a cartoon, Like God a War is ridiculous
now to me after having played through Seny with Saga.
That's my rant.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Okay, I am deeply regretting letting you go first because
player two, Adam Ganzer coming in and I'm just I'm
gonna be straight up. I'm gonna I am not gonna
lie about my experience with this game. But I want
everyone out there to know that I do appreciate that
(13:38):
there are people out there who this game matters a
lot too, right, and Mike is one of them. Okay,
So I just that's I just need to say that
up top.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It matters so much that I'm bulletpro like it doesn't
matter what it okay, great, and I'm so glad.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
To hear that, because I hated this game. I really
did not like it. I didn't so I got asking.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Then I'll let you do your rant. Thanks. Come. Before
we started taping, you said you thought I'd love this episode.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Because it's because I think this episode is gonna be uh,
it's gonna favor your point of view a lot more
than mine, and I think it's gonna it's We're gonna
end up probably leaning more toward where you are than
where I am, because not all the way ahead. Yah, yeah,
thank you. So I'll tell you what I mean by
(14:24):
I hated this game. I don't think this is a
bad game. I want that to be very clear. I
actually think it's a good game. I did not have
any fun playing it. I found it extremely miserable. It's
a very miserable experience. Now it's miserable on purpose because
it's about a person going through extreme torment and through
(14:45):
mindbreaking torment with their own mental illness to kind of
come to terms with what has happened to them. And
they've done an incredible job at rendering that experience. I
don't have personal experience with it, but it has the
ring of authenticity. They've done incredible performance stuff. Like Mike said,
(15:05):
they've done really cool visualizations of that world and the
architecture and structure of that world and what it might
look like. I played a little bit of this game
when it came out in twenty seventeen, so before the
graphics have advanced to the point of god A War Ragnarok,
and I thought at that time this game was astounding looking.
(15:26):
Like now it doesn't quite look as sharper as beautiful
as some of the more recent Triple A games that
have come out, But this game was gorgeous and cool
looking when it came out, and it still holds up.
It's just not very fun. That's about my ultimate critique
of it. And I know that that critique is that
some people are gonna instantly be enraged with me about it, Okay,
(15:49):
but like, honestly, it's not very fun. The combat is
not very good. The puzzles I actually liked quite a bit,
but you're sort of constantly drowning in this pain, vague,
obtuse whispering that is miserable and uncomfortable. Now as an
artistic experience, that has tremendous value as a piece of art.
(16:11):
This game has tremendous value because it's achieving something that
few people would try and even fewer would succeed at.
And it has absolutely done that. Absolutely it has captured
in a meaningful way, the process of mental illness. My
(16:32):
problem with it is that I don't want to have
that experience as a gamer. I don't want to have
that experience. It's like, I'll put it to you this way,
and I don't. I'm not invalidating it as art. As
a game, I don't want to be miserable. Like if
somebody came out with Crucifixion Simulator five thousand and was like,
it's really like that, it's really like getting crucified, I'd say, sure,
(16:54):
I don't want to play that. That's not a fun
thing to experience. And while that would be less meaningful
to many, then this game is. Because this game does
meaningfully render a terrible, miserable experience that many human beings have,
that's still not fun. Like, it's still not a fun
thing to do. And I get it. Not all games
need to be fun, and I get it. Not that
(17:16):
art has a responsibility to portray the dark as well
as the light, and this game's absolutely doing that, and
I can't take it away from that. And I want
to spend as much of the episode as we can
talking about the meaning behind what they're attempting to do.
But I just gotta be honest with you, guys. It
isn't fun. It's not fun, and it's not actually very
deep as a game experience either. And I think that
(17:41):
video games have some obligation to entertain. I do think
that this game did not meet those obligations in my opinion. Now,
perhaps the artistic obligations to say something meaningful surpass that.
I know that's what Mike would argue. I think I
would argue it too as a filmmaker. But I just
got to represent the other side, and I feel like
i've done that. Please don't hear me diminishing your emotional
(18:02):
experience with this game. If you loved it, I'm not
doing that. I'm just saying it's not fun. That's my rent.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Actually, I disagree with you way less than I anticipated.
I think A fair thing we'll have to discuss is
it's such a good, tight story. It would make such
a good movie. In other words, why you talk about
just a movie? It could just be a movie, there's
almost less of an argument for it being a game.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
We should talk about that.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on the other side of the break,
a vasty shipheads land.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Ho.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I don't know, we'll be back all right, we're here
on the land.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Hey, just like that.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Wait, you're still podcasting. This is we've passed another checkpoint,
which means we're pulling like a lightsaber from a tree.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
We're walking through a stuff portal and we're seeing there's
a bridge.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
There where there were or something I love about the
game game on, just to kick the kind of conversation
of one of the only games or pieces of media
that treats Vikings like the fucking horrifying Yes it does.
They must have been to encounter agree. Instead of anti
heroes where it's cool to be a pirate, it's cool
to be a viking, the Vikings in this are like a.
(19:17):
I mean, they're big men who come and rape people
and burn your house down, and they're not like they
traumat they're monsters.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yea. They traumatize the existing communities that have no other protection.
And that's what happened. You know, the Northman tried to
have its cake and eat it too. That was a
movie that came out a year or so ago where.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
They're like, hey, we did one rape and pillage. Yeah
we strangled that way, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
But then you know it's now basically yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
So I feel like we it's like we should spend
some time celebrating the game a little bit, and but
then we want to hit the parts where we don't agree, right, okay,
So like, can I just stipulate right up top as
an artistic endeavor to render mental health? I've never seen
(20:04):
a better piece of media than this, I don't think
have you? Can you think of.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
One other than that GameCube one where you go crazy
and see shit? I forget that Eternal Darkness Sanity's Requiem.
That is the one we're talking about, right, Eternal Darkness. Yeah,
Eternal Darkness Sanity is requiem. I mean, but I kill
yeah obviously, yes, I think so. Well, I guess I'll
(20:30):
save it. So the par whori disagree is immediately the
most interesting to me. But yes, and I want to
add it's done with such love. It really is done
in the sensible way that the writer in me loves ye,
where everything is accounted for as a plot element, meaning
technically you play as a new voice insinuous head, the
voice of the trauma that's developed since uh Dillian was
(20:52):
killed to help her see this quest through, and the
chorus of voices in her head welcomes you, and they
have differentiable personalities. Want your abuser voice, which I have,
like the self loathing voice is like a demonic voice. Yeah,
and that one uh only says that you're not gonna
make it and shit. And if you play this game
(21:12):
with headphones, they're separated, they're stereo separated, and it's quite
an effect. Everything is done with such love and thoroughness
and attention to detail to answer your question, yes, and
that's what I'm like. The last of us story I'll
stop doing this now remains incredible. But to me, there's
something about the fact that in the middle you play
(21:35):
a bunch of video game levels that, of course the
show draws us like that's the parts they cut right,
because the show's right, and Senyas feels like a game
that did cut those parts. Now, the trade off is,
so you're saying I would say gameplay, I.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Would say it didn't. But but okay, continue your because you're.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Mostly too much too much, like she kills a believable
number of bandies to get through her, you know what
I mean versus the.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Last Every combat sequence the more grounded in reality than
anything in Last of Us. I totally agree, but I
like they're all structured to be uh connected to her
mental suffering. Like, so it's all justifiable, whereas Last of
Us is occasionally a video game. But I do want
to make the point before we go any further. Last
(22:22):
of Us is one of the rare games that makes
meaning out of killing, and so we're not actually picking
on the right game if we're going to if we're
gonna undermine the gamification of things, there's so many other examples.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, my other point was I was so much more
engaged in the ending of Last of Us from like
the hospital point.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Way more word Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Because no, I don't mean than this I'm saying than
the rest of the game. Like I didn't care that
much about the giraffes or the blah blah blah. The
show actually rendered in a way where I cared more
about Henry, for example, than I did in the game.
It just seemed like a thing that happened.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Everybody's saying that right now, I don't feel that way
but okay.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Interesting, And then the last of us climax is so
astoundingly clever and such a good twist, but like a
subtle internal twist that feels so adult and sophisticated and
trusts you to read subtext and shit that I immediately go, well,
that's the best game story of all time, and I
see a lot of reasons I stand behind that, But
(23:22):
this is the last time I much but like but
Senua's because of the subject matter. I must admit, I'm
that engaged in from beginning to end, and I don't
want people to think that it's only the voices. They
manifest so many analogies that are spawned on r that
is what it feels like to be depressed and depressive
and in the way like she sees situations and tackle situations.
(23:45):
At one point, Dillion's head starts breathing again. Everything like
I said it dumb before, but like she pulls the
sword from the tree and it means something. Symbolically, everything
means something. That was my favorite part of the game,
But I love that. I think part of the reason
it was my favorite part of the game is because
it's the one time you feel like you're building to
something hopeful. The rest of the game. You really don't
(24:07):
like it.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It is it is, except the end is a wash
in despair like it is spare no, I just want
to It is as a tone, that's what it.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Is, as we say, as we lavish praise on the story.
I guess I should say my one knock is that
it does this installment makes it feel like trauma, that
mind shattering trauma and mental illness can be resolved in
(24:39):
one great cathartic act of like confronting the trauma, which
I think even the mental health professionals involved would say, yes,
that's an oversimplication of the process. Senoa has years of
work ahead of her if indeed she'll ever you know,
get in a healthy relationship with her mental illness. And
then there's even more progressive people who would say her
mental illness empowers her in this cultural context. That's you know,
(25:02):
who are we to jut or like, There's a lot
of different takes on it, but I guess I would
say that's my one thing that feels reductive. It's it's
not good storytelling, But finding your way out of that
dark place is actually years of practice, like going to
a mental gym. It's not like you finally admit that
you hate your father and now you're good.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Right, and now I know, yeah, now I know why
I was sad. I agree. But if you don't do that,
you don't have a game story like like I it's
it's the problem of story structure as applied to this
carrying late and stuff, and like to me, it's like, look,
if we're going to grant any license for for art
(25:41):
to have a structure that is pleasing, uh and and
to tackle the subject, I think that's an acceptable one.
But I just want to get out there again as
early as I can in the episode. I do not
speak from a from a place of intimate knowledge about
this level of mental health issues. I've had my own
mental health issues, but they're not they they haven't been
(26:04):
like this experience. So I'm gonna be a bit of
an outsider, and I'm gonna be careful not to be
too judgy about that. Like I'm just putting that out
there now.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Sure I do have a bit clear on the same front.
I struggle with pretty extreme mood disorders, but not schizophrenica
or hallucinations, although it does run in my family and
I've had a lot of experience witnessing it.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, I've seen a little bit of schizophrenia as well
from a neighbor that I had a few years ago,
and it was upsetting. So I do want to I
want to be gentle if there's anybody out there who's
listening to the episode and feels really connected to this property,
like I please, I know you're there, I hear you,
I see you. I'm not dismissing you when I with
(26:47):
my objections to this game. So I want to I
want to start with the question of is this story
structure the best game story of all time? Which is
that was your feeling about it? And I'll tell you
my objection to it, though I do think it's very good.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
As you want to do, you're training it objectively, and
I'll have to note that I couch that very thoroughly.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, right, it's your opinion, and I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm just saying here's my counterpoint to that, and see
what you think of it. So I think this game
is one of the only ones that's justifiable for creating
what i'll call a mystery box technique. You know, it's
employing a mystery box technique, And what I mean by
that is it's obscuring what the actual story is and
(27:31):
slowly revealing the pieces of the story as you go
through a process of mystery vague hint at it, and
the joy of it is realizing what the story is.
It's a valid storytelling technique to a degree. It's what
every mystery is. To a degree. It's whatever noir's story is.
(27:53):
But noir stories tend to be about revealing the crime,
and there's still a layer of story where you're the
character is processing it as they're.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Going sacrifice something personal as well.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah right, yeah, and so it sort of creates two experiences,
if you will, whereas this is sort of one primary experience,
so you really are immersed in the mystery box of it.
A mystery box is a difficult genre. It's not always successful.
I find it often very frustrating. This is a this
(28:26):
is in the middle of great and frustrating to me,
Like it has good reasons for it, but I do
think it kind of goes on and on and on.
I do think it has a little bit of like
a Revenant quality, you know what I mean. You've seen
the movie The Revenant, right.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yep, obviously love the craft, and I mean to porn,
I mean, is great, but I have the same problem
with it I have with Mandy, which is then if
you break down the story beats, it's just you killed
someone I love, I find you, I kill you. I'm like,
that's not interesting enough.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And I would say this is not that different in
the This is I lost somebody I love. I can't
deal with it. Now I can deal with it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
But I'm mentally ill, right right, which makes it for me,
which justifies it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, yeah, and again it's justified. It's not like bad art,
where it's not where the premise doesn't match the structure.
It's just that the experience of it is uh, frustrating
and vague if you're not immensely connecting to the experience,
like if you're not like I get this, I feel
this way, you're like.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Of it as as art, like, uh, you know, a
part of me is also just like tipping my hat
to man. Those crazy bastards did it the mental illness seriously,
and they treated it with respect. That's so hard to
do in this medium. Good for you guys is an
element as well, of course.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
And they deserve that.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, they deserve that for Oh yeah, I mean it's
a huge accomplishment for that. I do want to say
that that does leave it with So I would say
it's at the cost of the gameplay, because I I
guess because it's my second time through, I knew what
to do all the time, so I did plow through
the filler quote unquote, not filler. Those are the parts
(30:08):
you would call the game the game traditionally, but I
mean the parts in between the story. I went through
so quickly that to me it felt almost like an unbroken,
like long movie, and I loved it that way, but
I remember the first time it did take me longer
to figure out some of the stuff. So you're right
that if this were literally a movie, there'd be scenes
where you're like, well, that's twenty minutes enough and cut that.
(30:31):
So it's not a movie in the way that a
video game isn't a movie. But it did do story
at the cost of gameplay. And I will say, as
much as I'm excited to see the universe, no, no,
I ideally would be both. I got fun too. I
just can get by without it. If story is like
art is important to me, No, sure, and to you.
(30:51):
But I mean it's addictive to me or something, or
it can be enough that I'll overlook fun factor, as
you know. But I'll just say I said earlier that
I'm super excited for Saga because I want to see
it expanded about I'll say in the same breath, they
haven't really proven, Like I'm deeply concerned about. This has
no RPG or upgrading elements at all, which you don't
(31:14):
necessarily need. It makes it more grounded and realistic, right,
almost no HUD all this stuff. But can that sustain
a much longer, more epic game where.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I don't see how much of stuff?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I don't see how there because they're obviously committed to
not gamifying it. But if you don't gamify it, then
it can't be fifty hours long. Then why are we
doing a game?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
And what's the what's the What's I worry about that?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
For sure?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
You know, I do so like that. That's my fear.
Is like, Okay, so I see every reason to pour
horsepower into making this the best looking, best acted, best
camera thing version of it. I see the reasons for that,
but I don't know what story justifies a larger experience.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Here or what activity?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, either onelation, but you know what, like, look, I
I'm gonna be not a prick. I'm gonna trust the
artists who have done something interesting to keep doing something
interesting and say I'm excited to see that.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, definitely give it a shot.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
You know, like we're gonna get Call of Duty fifty
this year, so you know, I'm okay with somebody trying
something meaningful. And sure, I'm okay with that. So that's fine.
I just I guess, like to me, the question becomes
is an artistic experience enough for gamers to call this
(32:34):
a great game? Like do you feel the obligation? Do
you feel game designers have an obligation to entertain at all?
And do you think this game does that?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I feel that games currently because I still feel like
we're in the infancy of the medium more or less.
I feel like I, as a pop culture analyst or proselytizer,
whatever you want to say, have an obligation to try
and honor things which expand or stretch the boundaries of
what the medium can do and prove that it's a
(33:06):
medium just like literature or film, they can do anything.
So I favor novelty and like, well, you haven't seen that.
You don't see that every day, So for me, it's enough.
And then in the same breath exact if some if
the guy next to me goes it's just not fun,
as he often does because Adam's the guy next to me,
(33:26):
I go, oh, yeah, that's also true, or sometimes argue
that it's not fun that I well, it was fun
enough for me. Not in this case, I see how
it's not enough. I worry about it being longer. There's
just not much gameplay here.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I want. I want to talk about the parts of
the gameplay that I thought were good, because there are some.
So I think that almost all the puzzle conceits were
really cool, like the optical Illusion conceit. It's sort of
like it's doing things that a lot of games have
done where they sort of play with reality, like where
you know, from a certain angle, there's just things that
(34:03):
exist in the space that didn't before. It's almost like
a far cry fever dream, you know, because like they
have so many of those, it's like you're playing one
of those the entire game. And I think it's done
really well, and the puzzles are fun and interesting. There
are a lot of like perspective based puzzles or looking
through the mirror, like lens of Truth type stuff from
(34:26):
Okarina of Time.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Like, so it's borrowing from some other places, but it's
definitely constructed in a way that I felt was rewarding
and basically never got tired of them. I kind of
liked all the puzzles for the most part.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The puzzles are good.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, yeah, well that's most of the game. And I
think that I'd actually like to see a lot of
games steal from these puzzles because I think they were
actually pretty cool. The combat is very bad, I think,
and I'll say why. The main problem with it, aside
from it being repetitive, is that they went to a
(35:00):
super long lens, like from your character to the other character, So, like,
how do I explain this from a filmmaking.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Hard to gauge the distance.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It's really hard to gauge the distance because they've compressed
the space with this super long lens like a seventy five.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
The vikings are so cool.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
They are awesome looking, no question, the character designs are awesome,
But because they've compressed the space and the camera's really
tight on you, like you're in a tight medium. It
really it gets hard to judge how far away you
are from things, and to compound that, they're constantly introducing
enemies behind you. And the only warning you ever get,
because there's no HUD in this game, is a whispering
(35:38):
voice in your ear telling you duck or like block
it down behind you, and like you start to learn
how to like hear those voices when they're helping you.
But again, the game really does drown you in a
bad stimuli for a while, so it feels like you
get no tutorials for anything, you know, even.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Though I have a fast brain and intrusive looping thoughts
and like I'm getting tested for ADHD and stuff. So
I'm like, that's what it's like.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I believe it is.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
The voice has never stopped completely.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Completely, my friend, And it gives me new compassion for
your life. It really did. I was thinking of you
the whole time. I don't mean that in a condescending way.
I hope that didn't come across that way like.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I've known not at all.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, it really gave me some new compassion. Nothing for
your situation. I don't have that exact experience, and I
found it very unpleasant. I was like, I don't want
to deal with this, so my heart goes out to you.
It was a frustrating way to be trained to do
the game, like intrusive thoughts were a frustrating tutorial and
(36:38):
then a frustrating game trigger that would normally be a
graphic or a button like push the button out, you know, like,
and that didn't happen. So I was constantly getting whacked
from behind by some ghoul faced muscle viking. And that's
just frustrating. Is it the end of the world? No, No,
you can overlook it. It's not so broken that it's unplayable.
(36:59):
It's just annoying, you know. So, yeah, I just wanted
to get those pieces out.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
All right.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah. Do you think, like, how do I ask this
question without being a jerk? Do you think there's any
limits on what is a worthwhile negative experience that art
can pursue in this medium?
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I don't know what you so like I.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Use the example in my rant of Crucifixion Simulator.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Right, oh yeah, I talk about this all the time. Well,
first of all, having played through Ari four VR and
being really I'm on lock now with I don't get
motion sick and I like the scary like I'm good.
I love VR. I'm fully acclimated. So four VR was
a delight.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I think about this a lot now when I play
these types of games. This would be a great VR
title because the hordlessness and the groundedness, if you swung
the sword yourself for real, that would be enough. That
would make it engaging enough that the whole game would
feel I think flawless.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
But it's not.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
So it's just pressing some buttons and it's you know,
so yeah, I agree with all that. And I've talked
about speaking of VR, which is why I bring it up.
I think it will be weird for me, and I
don't know if this will be considered old fashioned or whatever.
Uh not that there should be limits to art, and
(38:23):
people have always tried to do this. There's like the
Story of the Eye, which is a book written way
back in the day where you're like, oh, I thought
people were proper in those times. No, humans have always
tried to imagine the most extreme thing they could, right,
It's just natural. So it's a story about like cutting
out a guy's eyeball and shoving it up your genitals
and stuff written in like Victorian England, and it was
(38:45):
passed down because a it has philosophical underpinnings, but be
just to show that, like, people have always been nasty,
even in times where we think of it as repressed,
like the fifties in America or what have you. Yes,
that exists, but there's always an underground of secret, horrible stuff.
And I wonder about like it will inevitably happen, so
(39:06):
like in thirty years, what if there's haptic feedback and
it is photorealistic and there's a vr rig that is
as incredible as we think, and someone's like, here's an
app that makes that you can just like kill a
child in a room with a hammer. And I'm telling you, dude,
it feels really like it would really feel like to
do that. I'm like, well, what what are we doing here? So, yes,
(39:28):
there's a limit, I don't know where it is, okay,
but we're headed towards it.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
We're going to find out, We're going to find out
what it is we're going.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
But I've often thought about child Murder Simulator and like
who would play that?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Some team?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Sure, because when I was seventeen eighteen nineteen, I wanted
those experiences like I went online searching for horrible shit. Yeah,
and I don't think that's a I think that's a
fairly common experience.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
The liberal, the liberal in me is. The liberal in
me wants to be permissive for nearly anything, as long
as the endeavor itself is attempting to make a meaningful comment,
not even a comment I agree with, just a meaningful.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Good faith comment.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, it's a good faith, meaningful comment.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
That's it. If your only thing is to get lulls
or to make someone angry, you're allowed to do that.
But I'm also allowed to think you have some kind
of psychological challenge that makes you feel the need to
do that, because making people angry with no points has
no points or whatever you know, or if you haven't
grown out of that, that's like your deal to work out.
(40:34):
But as long as you're making a good faith comment
that you really believe, and these people are clearly trying
as hard as they can, I respect the endeavor.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Is I don't think any reasonable person would say the
endeavor is meaningless or that the endeavor isn't bad faith
or bad So I'm repeating myself here, But you know,
the game is good as a piece of art for
that reason, but I do like I come back to
games are for fun, and in that way, it's pushing
(41:09):
the limits of how little fun is expected out of
a game. And you know this one very.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Very best game of all would do both.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yes, the best game of all would do both correct,
which is why we like Last of Us so much,
because us trying to do both.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
And it and I said best story, I wouldn't say
best game because Last of Us. The gameplay is actually fun.
I know there's people who say it's not the most
fun ever, but I find it thoroughly sneaking around, especially
in two, sneaking around, killing people, shooting, and it's it's clean,
it's good gameplay.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And I've heard people infect on a recent i GM
podcast I happen to listen to, argue that the game
has become less meaningful because of this the TV show,
because the game itself is not that good.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
It's just the story that we're represented in the show. Yeah,
and just spend hours going around.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I disagree that in every way.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
No, it's fun clearing out a room, and Last of
Us too is really fun and meaningful.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
It's the choice to kill is meaningful there, just like
the choice to kill in this game is meaningful, you know,
like you're killing because it's the only way to overcome
the intrusions, or in case.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
It just does the thing that so many games still do,
where you single handedly kill more human beings without yourself
getting killed than anyone has in the history of their
Like you kill seven hundred people without getting injured.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
That's not possible, luck, it's stupid work that way.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah. Anyway, that's all video games though, So I think
it's time for a second break. We'll get into our
final segment where we will decide whether aliens get to
see us at our weakest and most vulnerable. So we'll
see on the other side. I shouldn't even have said weakest.
(42:56):
We're back this one option ship, but most vulnerable pure
Yeah yeah, yeah, Well I just went through this program
about having a healthy relationship with your mental challenges, so
that's good.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I would argue, by the way, for those of you
who are thinking of trying this and haven't, so, one
thing that I think is mandatory is you should play
this with headphones if you can headphone. The sound design,
by design, I don't just mean what's in the soundscape,
but the way that it's mixed like, so the way
that the sound occur in your audio, like your three
(43:28):
hundred and sixty degree audio sphere, is meaningful and it
is really rewarding to play it with headphones. And if
you don't do that, I think you're missing out on
something very essential to what makes the game great. You know,
so you should try that anyway. It didn't mean to
distract us. Are we passing our final checkpoint? Mike?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
We are passing our final checkpoint, which means we're healed,
We're good. Now, it's over.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
You feel great?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
That's goods so bad if the sequel was just her
having a wonderful time in the village, well, it seems
from the little peaks we've seen that she's become a leader.
So I imagine they see her as some kind of
seer leader or shaman leader. But what if it's no,
she's like normal, she's neuro normal. Now, I doubt that
(44:18):
would be a mistake.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
I don't think they're gonna.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
A huge mistake, big mistake. Huge. This is Keeper Deleety,
where we decide if the game makes it on a
celestial hard drive, the aliens will see in a million
years and judge humanity. Thereby, it's not full yet. It
can hold one hundred games, so we're still playing with
house money and probably will be for another I don't
know year, but then we'll start making real, tough choices.
(44:40):
I'll go because it's an easy answer because I do
value story so much, and I've already done this in
the past, like I've put not fun games drive, and
I'll try again. I would keep it. It makes choices
that are fair. It's like if ari Aster direct did
The Northman. It's uh. It makes choices that in film
(45:04):
most competent directors do, but are almost unheard of in games.
Like she collapses and everything around her fades to black
because she's unconscious, but she's dreaming, So in her unconsciousness,
she's in this black void and her reflection is beneath her,
and her reflection turns into Dillian and they have a
(45:25):
brief conversation about how he's her only support, well, he's
visually her only support in the space. Shit like that
where you're like, yeah, movies do that all the time,
but games don't. And I love shit like that, so
I'll try to keep it.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Filmmaker, and you loves this game, God, this one. Really,
this is a really tough one for me. I do
think the story is transcendent and artistically viable, but this
is not a good game like the Game of It's
not good like that. I agreet that, kens I just
(46:01):
I think on a celestial hard drive it only contains
one hundred games. Even with the extreme heights that it
reaches in terms of storytelling, the game itself being so
rudimentary and bland and frustrating and miserable really has to
count against it. So I think I'm gonna delete it.
(46:23):
Pitch me this again if you really hurt, If it
hurts you and you care, pitch it again. I bet
I'll be because I'm gonna feel guilty about it.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Or like you'd think about it.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
I'm still on it, but I really feel like as.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
A don't be yourself as a custodian.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
I feel like I got to say no to this one.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
I think I don't think I'll bring it up until
Saga comes ouck okay, because I do have a lot
of faith in this team. Of course, the ability to
tell a great story doesn't always conspire to make lightning
in a bottle where you're also great at game mechanics.
But I'm hoping that they see that a longer, more
ambitious game will need more ambitious gameplay. It's amazing what
they did that it considering it's a double A or indie,
(47:02):
you know, however you want to categorize it. So I'll
probably wait for Saga, because maybe sogaybe it'll cross, maybe
Saga will fix that.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
It's possible, and if it does, wonderful. But it also
might be a sort of Horizon Forbidden West situation where
it's like mmmm, or like the main conceit here just
isn't gonna quite make it, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And Forbidden West still very good, but it didn't like
Top the first one in the.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Way no I thought it would, yes, and it didn't.
So but just for all of you guys out there
who have never played this game and might be interested
in it, it is to me it's the game equivalent
of something like the Museum of Jurassic Technology, a reference
I bring up from time to time.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Which is very few people.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It's a Los Angeles It's a Los Angeles museum where
the experience of it is unpleasant, but it has like
such focused purpose that it's actually it's great in that way.
And you know, so if you have a personal experience
with these issues, or if you're looking for a really
interesting artistic statement about these issues, this is a great
(48:07):
game to try, and I think you'll enjoy it for
those reasons, right, So I definitely recommend it.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, I would. Also, it's a magical realism museum about
museums and curation, so it's technology. So you go, you
look at the displays and you're like, it looks like
a museum display, but it's a satire of it, right,
Like I don't understand what the display is analyzing, or
the thing it's analyzing is not true, Like I know
that didn't happen. And then you slowly realize the theme
(48:36):
of the museum is curation itself.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
It's just a weird place.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
But when you're high, for sure, But it's when I live.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Down the block, like so we would just smoke a
giant on the walk there.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Of course, that's right, you did live really close to it. Yeah,
it's it's an awesome experience once you realize that, though,
Like it's like, oh, yeah, this is so funny and interesting.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
That's why I spoil it. I actually think it's more
awarding knowing going in, not mystery bosing.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Fair enough if you've listened and maybe somehow missed it.
I had a great time after about forty five minutes
of like what the hell is this? When I did
realize what it was, and I was like, oh, yeah, anyway,
that's it. Are we done? Sway?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Well, that's right. But there's way more of us jabbering
on on a wide variety of topics, including a show
I do called Tales from the Pit about mental health challenges,
and I have a whopper of an episode coming out
where I'm going to talk about my recent foray into
(49:36):
like just really crushing it and developing all kinds of
new skills. And I thought about send you a sacrifice
a lot as I was as I was doing this
concentrated period of developing a healthier relationship with my own issues. Anyway,
there's also a bunch of other stuff. We talk about
movies mostly, but Adam does one with our friend Shirine Fish,
who you may know is like a YouTube video content creator,
(50:00):
just about friendship, so that could be like albums. It's
mostly music or movies or shows, all kinds of stuff. Anyway,
The free stuff you can find just by searching small beans,
the stuff that's behind the paywall, by which I mean
you give us three to five dollars a month. No
big deal is over a patreon dot com slash small beans.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That's right. Plug on, Mike, I'm gonna drop your skull
off the cliff, but in a good way.
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