A Guide to Heal Trauma and Step Into Your Soft Girl Era with Devi Brown

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Not everyone knew that I had several people in my
life that had been murdered at various times in my life,
or that I had bared witness to a lot of
abuse or pain, or had a lot of harmful abusive
experiences in my own life. And everyone is walking into
the room with something that we don't know about. And
you know, there really is just in a planet of
nine billion, hundreds of millions of people that have had

(00:21):
the experience of never having love reflected to them or
role modeled for them.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Today we have Davey Brown. She is a renowned well
being educator, Ahila and an author that has dedicated her
life to guiding individuals towards holistic wellness and self discovery.
How can someone be in survival mode, be or a
low place in their life, but still stop behating.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Journey sometimes just letting yourself break a little bit, you know,
I think that's the thing that we tend to avoid
for so many like valid reasons, like you have to
keep going, But there's no amount of talk therapy that
is going to change your experiences in life. Only somatic
processing can do that. We can all say we're a
lot of things and believe that and have the knowledge

(01:05):
that enforces that, but until you practice it, it's just
the theory. You have to prove the theory and the
hypothesis by doing.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm Radi Wkah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,
we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space
for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you
to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together.
Hi everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of
A Really Good Cry.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Today we have Davey Brown. She is a renowned well
being educator, a healer, and an author that has dedicated
her life to guiding individuals towards holistic wellness and self discovery.
She was also Chief Impact Officer at Chopra Global, founded
by Deepak Chopra, and her new book, Living with Wisdom
is such a beautiful guide to help relieve pain that

(01:56):
is blocking your spiritual growth. Thank you so much for
being here.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
Thank you, Roddy. I'm so excited to be with you.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Oh, I'm so happy to be with you. And I
read your book and I just thought it was one
so beautifully written but also felt like a friend that's
talking to you, which I really appreciated. It didn't feel
like as much as you are so wise and you
have so much wisdom to share, it didn't feel like
an educator. It felt like a friend giving you advice
in a way that holds experience and your own pain

(02:25):
and trauma being put through it and sharing yourself with us.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
So thank you, so much, thank you, thank you beautiful.
That was so my intention, Like it felt amazing to
hear that. That's like what you were feeling from it,
and what you got from it, and.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
What experiences brought you to write this book.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
God, so many you know.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
I think I have always been studying my life from
a very young age, and I think some of us
are naturally kind of that sensitive or that aware that
we're noticing paradox even before we know the word, or
we're noticing, you know, contrast in the things people say,
but then the way the world behaves. That was always

(03:05):
kind of like very glaring to me. But then just
also someone who has had a lot of experiences from
a very young age with trauma, with loss, with kind
of living a really really doalistic experience, There's just never
been a moment in my life that I think I
haven't been investigating grief to some extent, or investigating like

(03:27):
what is joy actually or why does it feel like
some people have it in some don And these were
just always kind of themes that no matter where my
life took me, that was always kind of like the
undercurrent the underflow of what I was kind of watching
and witnessing and just like developing a lot of perspective
on Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
And do you feel like worth and joy have a
connection to each other. I feel like I've had the
lowest moments of joy or the hardest moments in my
life where I think I've lacked a sense of worth
and so so from my experience, I think worth and
joy in your own self have such a deep correlation.
But how has your experience been with that?

Speaker 4 (04:08):
You know what?

Speaker 1 (04:09):
What I'm hearing in you saying that is like the
way I notice both of those as like inner feelings.
It's like having space, right, because like if you don't
have the space inside to even hold or notice or
rest in your own worth, you're not going.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
To feel it.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
And it's the same thing with joy, you know, And
I think that that's something that is really important for
a lot of people to know, especially if you've been
through challenging things. Joy truthfully takes practice, you know, in childhood.
Depending on your childhood, it may have been easier to
be known to you, but most certainly in adulthood, after

(04:48):
we've been carrying and contorting and also being you know,
put into so many boxes or programmed with.

Speaker 4 (04:55):
So many things.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
It's like joy takes repetition, you know, and it's usually
very incremental. It's like giving yourself this space and the
trust to feel like really small things are enough, or
that you can smile with some of the smaller things,
and then that creates the space. And I think it's
important that we really start looking at the effects of

(05:18):
some of the things that didn't get our consent, like
the impact social media would actually have on us, right
and like what it actually does to you biologically, into
your brain.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
A lot of people have been used to.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Performative joy because they may not have had access to
know it otherwise. And performative joy is like, yeah, I
put up the big post, or I gave this speech,
or I had the party, or I'm having this big
way that I'm sharing. And it's like, you'll notice if
joy is some of the work you're being invited into
if the way you're presenting your happiness isn't the way

(05:55):
that you're actually feeling it in your inner world. And
I think there's no judgment around that, but it is
really valuable information to notice. Am I like celebrating and
big and I'm having all the pictures with the yeah,
you know, like all the smiles and the but like, inside,
I actually don't feel that proud. I don't feel that scene.

(06:16):
I don't feel like this is enough. Why hasn't this
fixed everything? You know, it's important to notice those differences
and our body and in our outward experience.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
And sometimes if you've only had those those moments, you
actually don't realize that you don't know what joy actually
feels like. And so having those big moments, those moments
where you're like, oh, this must be what it is.
This must be what joy actually is, because that's what
I see and that's the way that I've created it
in my life. But then when you experience those, you know,

(06:47):
when you said the little moments I was telling I
went for a walk yesterday night. I was feeling a
bit blah, and I went for a walk last night,
and I realized, no matter what I tried to bring
of momentary joy into my day before that, when I
went on the walk, I was like, oh my gosh,
the bird's chirping bringing me so much joy, or oh

(07:08):
my goodness, sing the sunset is filling my heart in
a way nothing else does. And so I think you're right.
It's so much about the small moments, and we think
it's about the big moments until you start actually becoming,
and I think it's presence. Like I've had friends who've
been through I would say more than most people have
gone through, and they remind me that every single day

(07:31):
they've just making a choice to feel joy because they've
had to make it a choice they could have chosen
not to, but every single day they've chosen too. And
so whether it is in a little piece of their
morning moment where they look outside and they see the sunrise,
to making eye contact with someone on the street, it's
like all those present moments allow you to opt in

(07:54):
for joy.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
I love that opped in because it really is about
how do you figure out what gives.

Speaker 4 (07:59):
You a private smile?

Speaker 1 (08:01):
And so many of us look at happiness, enjoy or
goodness about there being some outward catalysts, most usually another
person right that is the reason or the person that brings.

Speaker 4 (08:12):
That to you.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
But it's so incredibly, incredibly powerful and empowering to be
able to bring your self pleasure.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
And joy on your own, yeah, and not be relying
on external people or things.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
That are temporary.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
You talk so much about, of course healing in your book.
How can someone who still feels like they're in survival mode,
Let's say they've listened to this up till this point
and they're like, oh my god, that's me. I actually
don't know what joy feels like. How can someone be
in survival mode, be or a low place in their life,
but still start their healing journey? Like what does that

(08:49):
look like?

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah, you know, it looks like sometimes just letting yourself
break a little bit, you know. I think that's the
thing that we tend to avoid for so many like
valid reasons, like you have to keep going and the
world doesn't stop just because something is happening.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
To you, or if you have children, it's like.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Trying to keep your spirit fortified enough to like be
who they need you to be first, you know. So
I think just really kind of being able to settle
into observing the fact that something hurts in general, that
first step is so massive. You know, no one wants
to admit their broken or that someone else harm them

(09:30):
or hurt them, or that they're not where they want
to be in life.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Right, so we do.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
All these protective measures, but like nothing comes of that, right,
Like you're just more stuck and you can look up
in two decades have passed and there's been no progress,
you know, So I think that kind of just willing.
You don't have to say that out loud, you don't
have to wear it as some kind of badge in
front of everyone. But being able to create honest dialogue

(09:56):
with you inside is a powerful first step. Connecting to
those tiny joys is a powerful second step. Just beginning
to temper yourself into and see how much you can tolerate. Ye,
you might notice that like joy can really trigger you,
and it can bring forward a lot of sadness. Honestly,
it can bring forward a lot of anger. When you

(10:17):
start to realize that you actually are lovable and it's
not hard to do. It can be kind of shocking
to your system and maybe remind you of ways that
you have fought to earn love or earn support.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Over the years.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
And then I think, you know, the biggest thing and
this is the piece that everyone a boys and I
have to say, like I specifically wrote this book for
the over intellectualizers, for the people that are addicted to
self help books, right, Like I have just between clients,
between friends, between you know, different junctures in my own journey.
I'll see people that have walls like a library, right,

(10:55):
oh yeah, lean walls or if you bring up you know,
something like breathwork, Oh yeah, I know all that. Oh yeah,
whim hoff or yama yup, yup, yup, you know, and
it's like, yes, that is the information and do you
do it?

Speaker 4 (11:09):
Yes, right, Becauyes that's the piece.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Like nothing changes, no amount, and there's so many phenomenal
resources and modalities and each of us need different things,
but there's no amount of talk therapy that is going
to change your experiences in life. Only somatic processing can
do that. It's about integrating the two. It's bringing what

(11:32):
you're learning, what you've recognized, what you've named, what you
finally understood happened or didn't happen, and then being willing
to be in practice with your body when the triggers
of those things inevitably come up and so practice is
the only way to change your life long term in

(11:54):
a sustainable way. And I think the lens that I
try to look at that through in my book is
really seeing those practices that can feel triggering and feel
irritating and angering, is to make it something that is
a lot more devotional. It's less about checking boxes. It's
less about you know, okay, my daily practice, my self

(12:14):
care practice I do, this is Jeff, And it's more
about like, I am so freaking devoted to the beauty
in my life. Like I am so devoted to the
fact that I deserve to feel good about myself and
my life. I deserve to have a healthy body. I
deserve to have a heart that feels open and filled

(12:35):
with light.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
I deserve to have a brain that.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Isn't ruminating in thought or telling me things that feel
that make me feel bad about myself. Like and only
kind of an energy of not proving, not discipline, but devotion,
I think can really bring that forward.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, I love that you said that. And when you
said the intellectuals, I always remember there's knowledge and then
there's wisdom, which comes with experience. And I remember my
spokesure teacher once said that when you accumulate too much knowledge,
like when you keep building and building and just grabbing

(13:13):
and grabbing and constantly learning and learning, it actually builds
more ego in you than it does goodness, because you
end up feeling like the Noah instead of the doer
and the person that is experiencing. And so he always
said that when you learn, then there's a process of learning,
but what comes with learning is sharing. What comes with
learning is doing. And so if you're just harboring knowledge,

(13:34):
actually that builds ego, which is the opposite of probably
what you're trying to do when you're learning all these
self help books and right, I think that's so interesting.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
I mean, it's just so deeply true, and it's all
just theory until you put it into practice. We can
all say we're a lot of things and believe that
and have the knowledge that enforces that, but until you
practice it, it's just the theory. You have to prove
the theory and the hypothesis by doing and devotion.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
I recently started, you know, when I was thinking about
why I do, whether it's physical wellness practices or mental
or spiritual things that I grew up doing. My mom
taught me how to do or all these different things.
I realize that sometimes the thing missing was this idea
that actually every single thing is a gift. So if

(14:22):
I think of my body as a gift, if I
think of everything that's coming into my life as a gift,
how can I not gift from God? Then actually looking
after myself is a devotional practice. And so when you are,
of course you're devoted to yourself, but at the same time,
it becomes even a little bit easier to be devotional

(14:43):
towards your body, to be devotional towards your heart when
you think of it as a gift of God, when
you think of it as a gift from the universe,
whatever words or phrases connect to you most. But I
do think when you realize that it's not yours and
it's something that has been given to you, then you
look after a little bit more. It's like when something's
given to you free, or you feel like it's yours,
you probably look after it a lot less than if

(15:04):
your mum gave you something that was like an heirloom
that you're looking after and it's precious. And so when
you start thinking about yourself in that way, it doesn't
then feel selfish. Self love and self care doesn't just
feel like you know, buzzwords that people are using. It's like,
oh no, like every part of me has been gifted
to me, so I have to look after it, and
the practices are the ways to look after it.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
I mean, that's just so incredibly beautiful, you know, and
just so deeply true, and even that it takes time,
you know, And so I think it's like so many
of us and myself included, for so long it's like
an awareness will come to you and you know.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
That's the path, right, but it just takes so.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Long and slow work, right, and it takes even the
practice of believing the thought in addition to the practices,
because you know, I think, just something that we can
and that I hope more people really kind of look
at and open their hearts too, is like we have
our individual experiences and everyone is walking into the room

(16:09):
with something that we don't know about, and you know,
there really is just in a planet of nine billion,
hundreds of millions of people that have had the experience
of never having love reflected to them or role modeled
for them. And it's very hard to sit in that
truth because it's counterintuitive to what this country is built on,
this belief in family or you know, these kind of

(16:32):
ideals that we share, but not everybody lives these, right,
And so if you never had real love or acceptance
reflected to you, that might be a barrier on why
it's harder for you to connect to an ideology of
self love, even though to your mind that makes perfect
sense and you wish you could. And I think this

(16:52):
book is really written for that too. It's written for
people who may have CPTSD, who may have a lot
of complex madic experiences over time, and it's not just
the one thing that happened to you once.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
But there's space for that.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
But it's also maybe an assordid amount of big tea
and little t traumas mixed in with the overall frictions
of life, mixed in with the overall collective grievings of life.
But you know, for anybody that feels because like, for example,
I remember I first started meditating and that made a
lot of sense to my body. Yeah, and that brought

(17:29):
me a lot of relief. And I think when you
come into that world, it seems like the next natural
step would be like yoga, right, and I remember the
first couple of times I tried to do yoga, it
angered me to such a degree and I couldn't understand why,
and I felt so annoyed, so frustrated, so judgmental about

(17:49):
other people in class with me and the teacher, and
it's just like, what are you people talking about? And like,
my body doesn't do that, and you know. And so
I think for a lot of people that have had
challenging experiences, there is a barrier to entering the wellness
world if you don't understand that grieving is a part

(18:09):
of this process, you know, and all of it. This
practice means the beginning of your practice is probably lots
of good cries, you know, lots of anger maybe, right,
lots of rage, sacred rage, lots of confusion, yes, And
then slowly that lifts, and then you get to the
next layer, and then that lifts, and then you go

(18:30):
higher and higher and higher. But I think starting to
teach really showed me the need, and it really showed
me how much I wanted my career in that space
to be rooted in trauma and formed healing and in
using language in a particular way and being able to
be slower with people and give a lot of people

(18:52):
step by step explanation. Like when I came in to
even my first retreat, you know, over fifteen years ago,
I kept saying, but how, and the response reflected back
to me kept being like, you're in your own way, Just.

Speaker 4 (19:06):
Be free, just give it over, surrender.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Not everyone knew that I had several people in my
life that had been murdered at various times in my life,
or that I had bared witness to a lot of
abuse or pain, or had a lot of harmful abusive
experiences in my own life.

Speaker 4 (19:24):
So without that.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Information, you could cause me a lot of harm, even
if you mean well, because you're not aware that people
are having experiences that you aren't.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yes, it's so true, And I think what you said
about it takes time. I think there's one thing about
knowing that grief is part of it, but also realizing
that the goal is not onward and upward, it is
ebbing and flowing like you're constantly in this cycle. And
in a tradition it says it takes lifetimes, not just
one lifetime. It can take lifetimes to actually like you know,

(19:57):
imagine well in all culature says we have had so
many lifetimes. So imagine you're carrying the weight of all
those lifetimes plus this one lifetime that you have accumulated.
Every single thing that you've allowed into your senses, or
not even allowed sometimes that have just come through your senses.
All of that has left these little imprints called some
scarras like these little imprints. And the more you emphasize

(20:19):
them in different ways, the more I guess, the more
you water them, the more you step into them, the
deeper they get. And so then you're carrying them, and
it gets harder and harder to make it through. And
then what you said about it coming to the surface,
I noticed that so much when I came into my practice,
And actually, I think that is the point. The point
of it is, you are unraveling. When you start your practices,

(20:41):
you are bringing to surface all the things that you
have buried and kept in a little cage in your
heart and kept in a cage in your body. And
so I remember when I started doing my meditation practice
and even a physical yoga practice, I found it so uncomfortable.
And not only did I find aches and pains that
I didn't know existed because of emotions trapped in different places.
I remember I had one I did my yoga teacher training,

(21:04):
and in that we did a whole day of hip
flexa work and I was falling, Oh my god, balling
and at the same time so uncomfortable physically. And if
anyone who doesn't know, they say that hips is where
women carry a lot of their emotions absolute and so

(21:24):
physically emotionally everything just comes to the surface. And in
the vadas it talks about it being like a mirror.
So as soon as you start these practices, it's like
a dusty mirror. And the more that you do your
meditation practice, the more you keep stay consistent with it,
the more there is repetition. You're slowly wiping off, wiping off,
wiping off eventually to be able to see your true self.

(21:48):
So but then to see your true self, you have
to make it through the layers that have been accumulated
through everything that's happened.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
So and that's why it's okay if it takes your
whole life, you know it's meant to be.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
It's like you don't meditate for like a week and
you're like, okay, great, I've done the world. It's like
it's not a practice for a short period. It is
a commitment. It's a life commitment. Yeah, it's a life commitment.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
It's so funny when you said that right now, it's
like and I say this with a lot of love
and joy, because I think this is so many of us.
At first when you start the work, right, you go
to a therapy session, and then I remember one girlfriend
was like, yeah, so I had a therapy session and
I've done the work.

Speaker 4 (22:29):
Yeah, it's like you've done some like yes.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Like beautiful, it is the start, but like that's not
how it works, you know, Like and I think you know, yeah,
just like to your point, it's like you get.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
To a layer.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
And one of the stories I shared in my book
is like I remember going to a teacher and I
had been working on this one particular kind of wound
just for like ten years, right, and I felt like
I was in just such a wise, beautiful space with it,
and I was in this lecture and I just like
I got so upset, I got so just so much

(23:07):
charge filled my body and I'm just crying. And I
waited and waited, and I went up to the teacher
and I was just like I don't understand, like I've
already healed this.

Speaker 4 (23:19):
Why am I crying again? Why am I feeling this again?

Speaker 1 (23:22):
And like, you just looked at me with so much
wisdom and grace, And I remember he looked at He said,
you have. You've done so much work, Debbie, and that's
why you're being invited to revisit it now again and
see it in this way from a new layer, from
a new perspective. And that's really what it was. It

(23:43):
wasn't that I hadn't done the work. It wasn't even
that it's still really hurt or bothered me. It was like,
now I get the opportunity to see how this particular
pattern shows up in this particular place, and like, Wow,
how can I love that too?

Speaker 4 (23:58):
How can I observe that too?

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Wow? What do you think is a lie or like
something that people tell themselves, especially women? I'd say that
blocks their healing, like something that's out in the world
where people end up believing but that actually ends up
blocking their healing.

Speaker 4 (24:17):
Hmmm, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
That you're supposed to be taking care of everyone else,
you know. I think that in so many ways that
shows up and that kind of programming, it's so deeply
ingrained in us for so many centuries, so we're going
to be revisiting it all the time, right. So it's
like sometimes that shows up in a relationship if you
are trying to save the person you're with, or if

(24:42):
you think that you're the righteous one that just knows
how to hold pain different, so it's about you doing
and giving to them.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
You got to look at that.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
It also can very sophisticatedly show up in areas where
you should be devoted to others, like motherhood, right, but
anything can be used as a tool of avoidance, So
especially with women, any kind of thing where there might
be this underlying.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
Edge of self sacrifice.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
As martyrdom, not as like sometimes you got to do
hard things and I'm showing up with what that needs
right now. But then I'm going to feel if you're
never feeling, you're telling yourself a story and you're actually
avoiding what you should be doing. But for women, I
think more than any it's it's very easy for us

(25:29):
to use so many beautiful things as a tool of avoidance,
but it's still going to sink true no matter how
you try to dress it up, right, Like your life
at the end of it is still going to be
a sum of your experiences, and so.

Speaker 4 (25:46):
You can take.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Decades to pretend that that's not happening, but at some
point you'll be confronted with it because you're here to
do the work. You're here in this lifetime to do
as much as you can to clear as much of
that karma as possible. Gotta you gotta get in, You
gotta get your hands dirty.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Have you had seen I mean, I know you see clients,
and you've seen so many people of your time and
help so many people. What are some of the practices?
Are there any that you've noticed, no matter who it is,
it's helped. And if someone's starting their journey, can you
give us like two or three practical ways to get
into a practice?

Speaker 4 (26:23):
You know what I would really say?

Speaker 1 (26:24):
And a lot of a lot of my work is
really catered through a trauma informed lens always and forever.

Speaker 4 (26:32):
So some of these things may even be things, especially.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
If you are like voracious about your self care, that
you've heard of or that you know. And it's not
about reinventing the wheel because all of this, as you
know deeply well, it's like so much.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Is has existed ancient.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
It's just so many ancient all of it, like, none
of it needs to be reinvented. God has always provided
since as long as humanity has. But it's about how
present you can be with each of the things that
you might come across. And so I found that in
my work because when I first started teaching meditation, especially
in my community, it was like I'd ask everyone to

(27:12):
close their eyes, and I would look out and everyone's
eyes would be wide open and scared.

Speaker 4 (27:18):
You know.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
I'd be like, and now gently close your eyes for
meditation people, yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
And I had to really study.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
That and understand what was happening and the deeper fear,
the maybe previous experiences of not having safety right, because
not everyone gets to grow up or be in environments
where you can close your eyes around people, because what
may happen right if you're not on guard, or if
you're not looking around and constantly noticing and testing the

(27:45):
emotions of people in the room.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
Right.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
And so to that extent, a way that I found
to help people, especially if getting still getting quiet as
hard would be to really work with a lot of
hand placements, and one of the very first is to
feel what supportive touch feels like through your own hand.
So we might hear certain things like place your hand

(28:08):
on your heart, right, but notice how you're doing that
when you do, and I always try to recommend for people,
try to really get that meaty base of your palm
that has stability and get it right in the center
of your breastbone and feel the pressure of it touching
your breastbone. And notice how much pressure you like.

Speaker 4 (28:27):
Is a harder press.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
That makes you feel like you're being hugged or being held.
Is that what allows you to feel safe? Is it
a lighter kind of more tender, looser touch that's just
like your fingertips grazing. Is that how you feel most
supported and safe? And just beginning to notice the nuance
of how your own body is reacting to practices, but

(28:50):
knowing that you can make the adjustment and do it
privately right and daily practice with yourself. Something that I
lean into in the book is like a lot of mudras,
which is, like you know, Jess, like the most delicious.

Speaker 4 (29:04):
Ancient wisdom to me.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
It's like it is going to the er for me,
you know, like bringing your hands and kind of advancing
your meditation practice to include other things that give you
awareness about how your body actually feels.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Could you explain to people with moodras A and yes, don't.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Well, so mudras are I guess in the simplest context
hand placements that you would use different kind of symbolic
hand gestures that you use in your meditation practice. And
so one of the base ones is what you know,
a lot of people would call like nonmstay hands or
but it's the angali mudra. So it's your hands and
what in the Western world you'd call prayer position. But

(29:45):
having them here and then connecting you know, the inner
parts the backs of your thumbs into the center of
your chest and what that does. That actually brings your
body into a couple different spaces, into a space of gratitude, yes,
as we know it, but also into.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Space of surrender.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
And it's one of the most grounding hand placements you
can bring, especially for grief as an early beginning way
to connect.

Speaker 4 (30:08):
But you can even experience that in a few different ways.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Kind of in front of you, in front of your
solar plexus, point it outwards. You can just have it
kind of gently levitating almost in front of your chest,
or you can push those thumbs into your chest. But
those are all varying degrees of how to experience one
particular mudra that is meant to kind of aid you
in a lot of different ways that you may want

(30:32):
or need to heal.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
I just want to add that Davey has is so sweet.
She's actually come here with her arm post surgery, and
so if you're watching this, she has a ceiling opinno,
but she's still trying to show us all the moves
she's ceiling. It is honestly so beautiful.

Speaker 4 (30:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I love mooders, and you know, whether it's moodras or
whether it's hand positions. I remember when I started doing
kirtan and if anyone who doesn't know what cyratin is,
it's a beautiful montra meditation, singing practice, singing mantras together
it is. It is just beautiful people dancing it. They
cry in it. It's just releases so many emotions. But
I remember when I started going to these curitans and

(31:09):
people would have their arms up in their air and
like literally like this, like singing their hearts out with
their arms up in the air, and I was like,
that felt really uncomfortable to me. I was like, I'm
not going to do that. That seems like I'm so into it.
Oh yeah, it's a bit muchs Like I haven't felt
that you're wiving. And then I remember at one point
after I went to quite a few, I leaned into

(31:29):
it and I was like, oh my gosh, like the
feeling of having your hands up in surrender of like
it just it invokes a different feeling. And then we
also have the practice of bowing down and putting our
head to earth as part of a respect when you
walk into a temple or when I walk into my
altar at home. And there's something that you feel when

(31:50):
you create these these repetitions of movements in your body
that are connected to something. And so whether it's your
arms up in the air and surrender, whether it's bowing
down and humility, it's like these little positions, these little
hand movements, these these the way that you position your body.
You can link that to an emotion that you feel,
you can link that to a quality that you want

(32:11):
to invoke. Yes, and I find that really beautiful that
you know, and that's that body mind connection that you
can create in the same way as you can create
spaces that feel a certain way in your home or
or in your life.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, and like what I'm hearing in what you're saying too,
It's like it's invoking a reverence for your human experience, right,
like through the things that you want to receive, through
the things that you've already walked through powerfully.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
It's like, you know much.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
It's kind of similar to like in like Western churches,
like praise and worship, right And I remember I'd walk
into a church at some point and you'd see people
like running back and forth or just hands up or
just on the floor wailing, and I'd be like.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
Okay, you know, all right, but will I look silly?
Will I look?

Speaker 1 (32:59):
And then the connection happens between you and the divine
you and God, you and your higher belief and then.

Speaker 4 (33:07):
You get it right and you're like, oh, it is.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
My honor to be on my knees, like it is
my honor to throw my hands up to seem to profess,
you know. And just one small thing I forgot to
say about those mood that is, it's so it's also
opening your energy channels and your body and so different
ones that I feature in the book are really meant

(33:30):
to speak to different things that you may have barriers
up against or may want to invite more healing into
based on how the energy changes within your body as
you're meditating, based on the position that your hands are in.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
And I just realized we got into this question by
me asking you what practices can people do to actually
start their healing journey, And so I want to just
recap on that you recommended Mooderus. While you're doing your practice.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
Is practice touching yourselves.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah, and so that's also like not just like the
hand on the chest, but I found that something really
powerful for somatic processing, especially done over the time, like
I probably dedicated two years to this without ceasing once ever,
is slow stretching with your body every single day, morning

(34:22):
and night. And not just stretch that's like focused on
if you're somebody that has an active body and works
out right, but like really deepening into slow stretch swinging
your hips as you shared, you know, women, we store
so much in our hips. It is believed, especially if
you follow some of the thought around epigenetics, that a
lot of trauma, sometimes sexual trauma, if that's been a

(34:45):
part of your path, get stored here. And so if
you can't kind of sit with ease cross leg that
could be depending on other medical things that only you
know about in your body that could be one of
the things that wants to be released is some trauma
that could be stored there. But it's our hips also,
our bone marrow, and our hips is where our immunity

(35:06):
is built. So when we don't have a lot of
flexibility in our hips, or we don't we're not really
present and aware of it, you could find yourself getting
sick more often or just having longer recovery times.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
So swaying with your body.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Stretching, moving, bending, folding, you know, all those things also
help to completely release stress, get you ready for bed, naturally,
regulate your vagus, nerve, and your nervous system, and those
are all necessary parts of healing. You can't heal if
you don't learn and practice regulating your nervous system. And

(35:43):
all of these practices lend themselves to doing that.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
That's beautiful. Yeah, I need to do a lot more
stretching in my life, honestly, but yeah, I've been. It
feels good, it does. I'm definitely trying to swap out
some of the higher intensity things that I do with
I feel like that's what my body's been calling for,
Like slower movements. You know, yeah, yeah, you talk about
softening and slowing down in your book. What does that
really look like for a woman who's so used to
hustle mode, which many of us are.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
Oh God, we have had listen.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Way too many women have been worshiping at the Girl
Boss Shrine for way too long. And I believe that
some of the best ways to soften, especially as a woman,
is to look at things through a few lenses. Look
at what your unique body needs, what your life experiences
have led you to, but then also look at you know,

(36:34):
we're all always at the mercy of the collective consciousness
that we're in, right, no matter how aware we are,
no matter how kind of pristine we may be in
our own energy, Like there are nine billion people on
the planet, we are going to.

Speaker 4 (36:49):
Be affected by whatever the majority of.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Consciousness is, no matter what, And that tends to be low, right,
It tends to be a lower vibration of kind of
global collective consciousness. And so I found that it can
be especially for people you know, who are more intellectual
or would consider themselves intellectualizers, it can be really powerful

(37:13):
to really study the conditioning at play that might be
keeping you from getting those different access points. And so
you know, if we look at what life has been
like in the last five, ten, fifteen years, a lot
of what was like girl boss culture or this kind
of really the truth of it, was about empowering women

(37:33):
to take up space and to take up position as
we should and as we've often been denied through various systems.
But it's not through replicating what men do and making
it pink right like. It's not through like any of
those kind of systems and just making it yours and
sounding powerful while doing it. I think that created a

(37:57):
lot of performance culture that wasn'tuine empowerment, and it's left
a lot of women confused about how do I actually
reclaim the feeling? And we're each both, we're each masculine
and feminine, but how do I reclaim the femininity inside
of myself? No matter how you identify, we all have

(38:20):
both of those energies, And so I think some of
the softening is really around kind of disconnecting from performance,
because that's what greater societal flow wants all of us
to do. It wants us all to be earning, It
wants us all to be performing, It wants us all
to be proving all the time, and so you would

(38:41):
have to strip some of those programmed beliefs and some
of that mentality in addition to kind of being present
with like what is the truth of myself as a woman?

Speaker 4 (38:51):
What do I like and dislike?

Speaker 1 (38:53):
And you know, and that takes time, and that's like
a beautiful unfolding that can't just be done on your
first retreat or your first you know, a weekend of
vision boarding. That helps, but it's settling, it's it's disconnecting
from the way other people project on us or tell
us to do anything and saying, you know, what actually

(39:13):
does feel good and pleasurable and safe inside of my
own body?

Speaker 4 (39:18):
And like, how can I do more of that? And
how can I do more of that? Just for me?
And not everyone even needs to know about all of that.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
You know, if someone is trying to move into the
soft girl era, yes, what would that kind of day
look like? Like what kind of things would you recommend
they do throughout the day that allows them to come
back into that space?

Speaker 4 (39:39):
Oh? My god, dis question.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Oh, I would say the first thing that I've found
really really.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
Helps is to create a breath work practice.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
And I know now that is on trend, but it
is ancient, you know, it is just it is life changing.
It's life changing, it's it's profound, it's miraculous. You know,
it's not just you know some okay I'm feeling oh okay, No,
it's like you know, it's like ah, Like notice how

(40:16):
you can even open your mouth on a release, and
like how much you can soften your jaw and your
neck and your body, And like, how do I slowly
build that connection inside so that I don't just feel
breath in my head or in my chest, like I
feel it in the depth of my womb, you know,
like I can now actually feel it in my knee

(40:39):
that's hurting, or I can feel it in the tips
of my toes. You know, working with breath work changes
the way your life feels, the way your body feels,
It changes the way pleasure feels, It changes the way
that joy feels. And so I think for everyone, but
really especially women who move really fast and do so

(41:00):
much for others, there is nothing that heals you more.
There is nothing that grounds you more that there is
nothing that allows you to regain agency in your body more.

Speaker 4 (41:12):
Than the breath.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
So that first and foremost is just that is my
practice throughout all day, every day. And you know what,
I think you find when you do connect to that
practice and really like settle into it, you find that
your body eventually learns how to do that without you
thinking about it, right, Like I can have a charged

(41:36):
interaction and no longer do I have to stop and
think like wow, I should do some breath work because
that was heavy, or do I have to say, okay,
let me pause and breathe. It's like you could be
talking to me right now and I'd be.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Like, your body's reminded and constantly realizes that that is
your coping mechanism.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
And I think for everyone that is like that is
the piece that you can really track, like just how
much you've done for yourself when you're not working to
do the work right right, Like your body just remembers that,
like this is what I need and this is how
I need it, and here you.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Go, Oh my god, beautiful. So breath work. It YEA
sounds simple, but so beyond life changing. I can say
the same to myself. I feel like breath has allowed
me to become so many things that I didn't think
I could be. Through relieving anxiety in the moment or

(42:34):
long term, or in moments where I feel any kind
of emotion, any kind of emotion. I remember my yoga
teach training. They said, breath is the anchor between your
body and your mind. So every single time you're trying
to your mind's running in the past, in the future,
bringing it back to the present just with a simple breath.
And I was like, oh my gosh, that is incredible.

(42:56):
When I started practicing, I was like, oh my god,
it's actually true. And then in all those hard moments
whenever I felt yesterday when I was feeling like I
wanted to punch someone, I literally all I had to
do was go outside and take deep breaths and that
was it. You need to tell anyone about it, you
need to talk about it. I didn't need to actually
punch someone, which is great.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Great, Well I had to do because like we need
you free, like you're doing God's work.

Speaker 4 (43:21):
We need you free.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yes, exactly. All I need to do is take a
few breaths, and how be you us free? You can
do it yourself. Yeah, And you're in control of it.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
You're in control of it all the time, and it
can be used in so many ways. You know, it
can be used for grief, it can be used for pleasure,
it can be used for joy, for grounding, and I
think also, you know, for those that are really kind
of opening to their soft girl era, that is one
of the deep master healers. But then I would also
say really bringing your own self romance is one of

(43:54):
the best ways to do that, to heal, to open
to the possibility of more. You know, so often when
we're trying to heal, we're trying to heal into a
life that feels better, that looks better, that has richer
relationships in it, right, that has like healthy boundaries in it,
Like we are trying to up level our experience and

(44:16):
being alive, and like I.

Speaker 4 (44:18):
Have a deep practice with beauty.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
I have a deep reverence for beauty, and it has
healed me in ways I can never imagine. And some
of the way I started doing that was like at
the top of the pandemic, I was going through a
lot of things at once, a lot of things.

Speaker 4 (44:34):
The same week that you know.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
The George Floyd situation had happened, I was also getting
divorced from an almost decade long marriage. I was becoming
a single mom to a two year old. We're in
the first couple of months of a global pandemic. I
had lost a friend, and then all.

Speaker 4 (44:53):
The rest of your life as all of us.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Came, you know, you come into all the things that
you didn't let yourself think of.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
I think that was for so many of us, what happened.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
And I couldn't do anything about any of it, right,
I couldn't even go to my therapist because we were
in a pandemic.

Speaker 4 (45:09):
She couldn't figure out.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
How to see me yet, and like, you know, Zoom
was dressed kind of starting and like and really one
of the only things that I could do was breathe, stretch, cry,
continue to meditate and make beauty. And that kind of
just look like gardening for me. I started my garden
in the pandemic.

Speaker 4 (45:29):
I you know.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
I got seeds and I planted roses, and I would
light incense. I hung prisms in all the windows that
got sun in my house, and you know, I would
just on my hardest day that I'd be like, how
am I going to raise this child?

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Like?

Speaker 1 (45:46):
How am I going to do this? What am I
going to tell him when he's old enough?

Speaker 4 (45:49):
You know? What? Am I?

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Why didn't my friend want to leave earth, you know,
and like, what what do I do with that feeling?
And like and then and you're in the midst of
all of that, because all of it will come up
many many times, and you take a breath and you
look at the sun and.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
You say, God, that's so beautiful.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
You look at the prisms shining a tiny little rainbow
across your fridge, and you.

Speaker 4 (46:15):
Stay like, God, that's so beautiful.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
You know, like you do all the little teeny tiny
things that you don't think are enough to solve the
bigger pain, and you just keep looking at it. You
just keep doing it, You keep creating it. You when
the roses bloom, you go and pick a rose every
time for yourself and you put it in a vase.
And I grew that, you know, and you look at
it like the Buddha did, and you find God in it.

(46:41):
And that's the way to slowly soften.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
That is so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that.
And yeah, oh my gosh. I think the main part
of what I heard was creating it, Like you have
to create it. And I was thinking about reflecting, like
what are the ways that I've created it in my life?
And it is all the small things. It's like, I
love scent, and so in every room, like I'm just

(47:05):
giving examples so that other people can maybe take from
it if it's something they relate to. But I have
incense in my temple area, so I know that it's
related to that. But then every room I have essential
or diffuser because every time I go past it, it
brings me this like feeling of oh I love that sense,
and that reminds me of this, this and this. So
each scent has like a different memory link to it.

(47:27):
And so I guess and what you said about the prism,
it's visual and so actually every sense if you think
about what satisfies each sense. When I'm smelling something, what
smells do I love? And how can I create that
around me? When I'm looking at something, what is it
that I see as beauty? Because sometimes you don't even
know that what is it that I look at and

(47:47):
I think, oh, this is beautiful? Like so much for
me is like natural colors, like earthy tones, and so
I was like, how can I create that in different ways,
whether it's in pottery, whether it's in the walls around me?
And so I think if you think about each sense
and you go through that and you say, what are
those things when it's tastes, what are those things that

(48:09):
not just stimulate me, but actually make me feel at home?
Because I think that's a difference as well. It's like
these things can really excite me, what are the things
that make me feel like I'm at home? And so
moving away from home, I definitely relate to that.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
I remember we did this event a few months ago,
and that was something that really stuck with me that
you said, because you were talking about your book and
you were sharing about spices, yes, and just about some
of those kind of like freedoms you can find in
spice and some of those emotional kind of connections that
you can find and spice, and that really stuck with me.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, I definitely have a connection to spices, flavors and home.
And I think you and you know what you're just
saying that It's like, whenever I miss home, the first
thing I think to do is cook a meal that
my mum makes. And it's because of the smells and
what I remember coming back from school and smelling those
certain things, and it brings this nil nostalgic home feeling.
And as soon as you feel at home if it

(49:03):
was a safe space for you, and it's something that
you connect to in a positive way, your whole body's relaxes,
and so bringing back little things that have fond memories
and keeping those things around you in different ways can
be such a beautiful way to soften and feel Because
I guess when I think about softness, what you're saying
is I feel in my most like relaxed, comforted, safe space. Yeah, right,

(49:27):
Like softness is like when you I think about whenever
we're stressed, or when we feel anxious, or when we
feel like we're not in an environment that can hold us,
everything is tense. Yeah, and so what does softness then means?
Softness then means the opposite of what are the things
that make me feel most comfortable, that make me feel
most safe, that make me feel most at home?

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, and so softness is like the feeling of being disarmed.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
You know, it's like we're all walking around sometimes ready
for battle and every moment, you.

Speaker 4 (49:55):
Know, and it's like to be soft is to just
be disarmed, like my armor off.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, it's so true. That reminds me of whenever my
husband would walk into a room. I have this like
like I know that he's in the house, but like
whenever he we still laugh about it. It's like what
ten years down the line nearly, and he walks into
the kitchen and walks in and I'm like, oh my god,
I didn't see that, or like you'll walk into a bathroom,
like why did you do that? Why did you shock me?
Like that was like I literally walked into the room,

(50:21):
and it made me realize I'm so much more like
that when I'm on like high anxiety or on edge
about other things in my life. It makes me so
much more hyper anxious about the people around me. But
also in the things that I watch. That has been
such made such a significant difference to how soft I
feel and how at ease I feel in my heart.

(50:44):
As soon as I start watching things that cause my
mind anxiety or even my heart anxiety, even in the
moment you think you watch it and you let it go,
but you actually don't.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
It's so true.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
And so as soon as I start watching things that
people I watch this it's so good. And I watched
the first episode and I'm like, oh my god, I
feel so not happy watching that, and I notice I'm
so much more on high alert after having observed something
like that, And so.

Speaker 4 (51:07):
That is so real.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
I've given myself this kind of parameter now, and I'm like,
if my foot starts shaking, well I watch something, or
if I notice that I'm tapping something, turn it off.
It's not for you. You don't need this rollercoaster in your life.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Like, it's so funny, you said, the foot shaking when
I went on my bookstore. The one thing I noticed
the most when I was doing all my interviews and
whatever was my foot would do this, and throughout it
I had no idea. I would watch it back and
I was like, what is my do? And it was
because I guess I was on highlight. And I was like,
through that process, I felt like I was so constantly
going into one thing after another and feeling quite anxious.

(51:45):
And then I noticed it when I'm in podcasts like this,
and I'm like, oh, my foot is as still as
can be. Yeah, And so it's so funny how your
body starts to indicate these things to you, doesn't it.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
And we only know we only notice someone we're aware,
you know. That's the thing, because I think this is
just natural biology. It's how our biology responds. But if
you're aware of your body, you kind of notice those
smaller things, and most people don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
What would you say? Is one affirmation that you wish
every woman would s taught a day with. Do you
do affirmations?

Speaker 4 (52:17):
Oh my god, it's so good. I have affirmation practices
in the boss you.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Do, I'll say, so, the power of I am is unparalleled, right,
Like the power of an I am statement is unparalleled.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
But I like to really push people.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Instead of kind of saying some of those things that
may not be necessarily fully connected that may feel just
like I'm doing an affirmation in the way I'm supposed
to do an affirmation, right, Like I am love, I
am abundance, like powerful, powerful, But maybe also consider like
what is a quality of character or a quality of

(52:54):
emotional experience that you want to embody for your unique
life and your journey? And how do you start saying
that to yourself every day? So, like, if you've had,
you know, maybe if you haven't had experiences of being
like deeply loved in a familial or romantic way, maybe
a way to start inviting that in is to say, like,

(53:14):
I am cherished and cherishing, right, Like what are like,
what is the feeling.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
You want to know in your life? Right?

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Or maybe it is like you're brilliant, but you don't
always give yourself the chance to be seen in that light.
And so it's like I am embodying my brilliance. I
am embodying my divine creativity. You know, what is the
need for you? And then how do you create a
statement that not only makes that need come to life,

(53:44):
but makes it beautiful? And make sure you say it
in the present tense and the present moment as if
it has happened and happening, right, not like I want.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
To be brilliant?

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Yeah, Like okay, so now you're inviting more longing into
your life.

Speaker 4 (53:58):
Right, But like I am radiating my.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Brilliance right, like beaking it into existence.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
I had gorgeous language, you know, and if there's words,
there's so many words to know, So open the thesaurus, right,
can you say that word more beautifully?

Speaker 4 (54:16):
Open the dictionary?

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Is there a different way to kind of supercharge that
word that adds more meaning to it? I love working
with affirmations in that way.

Speaker 4 (54:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
I think that makes sense because it is such a
personal practice. You can't really be one fits all, and
it reminded me of when I started praying, because prayer
was something I used to really struggle with, like the
idea of it wasn't necessarily the idea of speaking to
God that I felt connected to. It was like what
am I saying? And I remember thinking, oh God, my

(54:49):
prayers are so lame, like they are so boring, and
the language is so like a child and I remember
then I was like, I really want to or more
heart in my prayer, and I just can't find the
words for it. And so then I started reading all
these beautiful devotional poetry books and I was like, oh
my gosh, like this is how I feel, but how

(55:11):
come I kind of put it into those words? And
so it was really beautiful because even though there were
certain things I would read and I was like, gosh,
I can't even relate to this. This is so deeply
like this is so deep and so devotional that I
don't really feel connected to it yet, but I want to.
And so I keep saying those prayers over and over again,

(55:31):
and it was in such a beautiful kind of It
was in Sanskrit, which makes it even more beautiful, and
the translation in English was actually lovely, but sometimes can't
can't even like it doesn't depict it in the most
beautiful way. But even then I was like, oh. And
then I kept saying those prayers, and then slowly those
prayers just kept coming into my mind naturally. So whenever

(55:52):
I was thinking of prayer, those words would randomly flow
in or those thoughts would come in. I was like, oh, wow,
that's the power of You may not feel it, yeah,
but when you keep repeating it and repeating it, it
does become And I remember trying to do affirmations and
I'll be like, but I'm not this, and I'd be
like I am, like I am courageous or I am

(56:13):
whatever it was I was feeling, and I was like but,
and in my mind would be like, but I'm not.
And so I remember there was this disconnect between like
the word I was saying and the belief yeah, And
so I would often go kind of waving and out,
and I was like, this is so silly. I'm not this,
and like why am I saying all these things? And
then when I did that with devotional poetry, I was like, oh,
I kind of get it now, Like you have to

(56:34):
keep saying it. Yeah, you have to.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
That's such an important point to make for this kind
of a practice, because you're training the belief in yourself, right,
And I think, like right to what you're saying, everyone
is kind of go to way of surpassing it being
a limitation is to try to like say it with
more force, yes, right, Like they'll usually say like your power, right,

(56:57):
like I am abundant, and I'm like, I don't use
that voice for anything.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
When do I ever talk that way? That's not my
empowered voice.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
And I think the beauty of kind of like using
it as that devotion opening yourself to the belief it's
saying it in whatever way it's showing up now, right,
So like sometimes you're going to cry through saying it.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
Sometimes you're going to close your eyes, you're going to
say it shakily. Do it authentically.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
Don't let that be another area that you're adding performance
to do it authentically and let it take time and
it will click. And like I have to say, when
you were talking about like connecting to like devotional passages,
especially in Sanskrit.

Speaker 4 (57:45):
Or poetry, that.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
I mean like discovering roomy when I did many years ago,
was a revolution to my life, Like that is soft
girl era, like the way Roomy sure everyone knows, but
thirteenth century Sufi mystic poet icon like legend, but the
way that Rumy talks about God.

Speaker 5 (58:11):
And the language and yeah, it's so hot, like it
is so like yummy, It is so sensory, it is
so somadic, it is so define and it's like I
remember reading those poems and being like, I don't even
know what this feels like until exactly.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
What.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
That's a feeling you can have, and that's a feeling
you can have with God. That's the feeling you can
have with your own self and your life. Like, oh
my god, you know, oh.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
I have to share some of my favorite poetry books.
So do you know diversial poetry. I feel like you
love them. You said this in your book, and I
really loved it, so I wrote it out. You said.
One of my daughters asked me something similar recently. You
have question was how to someone become wise? Is that you?

Speaker 4 (59:01):
That was Charlemagne's Forward, But I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
I started reading okay forward is so it was so
beautiful powerful, I'll keep reading it. I thought about answering
with age, but that would be a lie because there's
plenty of foolish ass older people out here. So my
reply was, experiences make you wise, not just experiences, but
what you learn from those experiences. We have all heard
the saying smart people learn from their own mistakes. Wise

(59:27):
people learn from the mistakes of others. That's just another
way of saying that we learned from experiences. And I
was like, it's okay, it wasn't you, but I thought
it was such a beautiful explanation of what wisdom actually is,
and it's kind of what we talked about earlier. It
was like, it is so much more about the practice
and the experience that you have than is about the knowing.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah, I'm just so grateful and I can't express it enough.
My dear friend Charlemagne the God Leonard, he has been
one of my closest, dearest friends since we were both
like sharing lunch, right, you know, really for almost two
decades and our relationship. He did me the honor of

(01:00:08):
doing the forward for my book and doing the audio
version as well. But you know, it's been so powerful,
I think, for each of us to reflect on our
lives through these kind of lifelong conversations we've been having
with each other throughout our evolution, and one of the
things that we've always talked about is we've grown in
our own individual consciousness is like wisdom and really knowing that,

(01:00:34):
Like wisdom truly is earned or it's surrendered to right,
it is not knowledge. You can amass a lot of
knowledge and not live what you know you know, And
I think that that is an important distinction for people
to think about in this day and age, especially when
there are so many people that others are looking to. Right,

(01:00:55):
It's like a lot of people can memorize, a lot
of people can regurgitate, but like, what is the truth
of the quality of the life they're living right, especially
off camera and off Instagram? Like what is the truth
of how they move in the world and how they
experience the world.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
And I think that's wisdom.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
And you know, I remember he and I were having
this conversation that we explore in the book about wisdom,
and you know, I my understanding of how wisdom moves
in my life is like all of my lived experiences,
I've been able to glean wisdom from because I've chosen
to be present with them, even the harder ones, the

(01:01:36):
stranger ones, the confusing ones, and because of that, that's
how I serve. I don't have to be out earning anything.
I don't have to, you know, kind of like present
myself in a certain way or hope that I'm being
perceived in a certain way.

Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
I trust what God.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Has allowed me to move in through what I've been
present with, how I use it to help. And I
know that everything, everything is in service to the greater world,
to humanity. And that's what wisdom is. And I think
some of the more spiritual differences between wisdom and knowledge
wisdom serves right. Wisdom isn't about the self, It is

(01:02:16):
about what this does for others. Wisdom isn't about even
your own personal story and trauma dump. It's about what
is the deeper theme of awareness you've come to from
that experience, and how do you share that, not to
center yourself as wise, but as to share the wisdom
to unlock the next person.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Such a great definition between the two. Thank you have
a formula for purpose in your book.

Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
Yes, for people who feel.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Lost right now in their purpose? How do you find it?

Speaker 4 (01:02:47):
Ooh?

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Purpose is one of those again, another tool of avoidance
that can be done in a sophisticated way that you
don't know, or it can be another way of kind
of outsourcing your worth. I found that, so I've been
talking about and teaching about purpose for over ten years.
I gave like this big talk about purpose at an event.
It popped up in my memory is like ten years ago,

(01:03:11):
and that's when I first started really deepening into like,
how do we exist with purpose with dharma without also
having to make that another thing, another kind of self
aggrandizing way to receive attention or respect from other people.
I think if we rest in purpose as a job title,

(01:03:33):
or as an amount of likes or an amount of views,
or any kind of outward validation, we're missing the point.
You know, Purpose is between you and God, and it
is always evolving.

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
I thought my purpose was to broadcast.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
I was a broadcaster for almost fifteen years in all
these different places, and that was an extension of my.

Speaker 4 (01:03:55):
Purpose for that moment. But it's a job, right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
I honed sks in that world to serve with them,
which I can now do through also guiding meditation, writing books,
learning how to talk about healing with people in a
way that hits them right. But it's about making it
useful for others as well. And so you know, the
way that I've come to study and hold purposes, it's

(01:04:21):
really this beautiful, beautiful, intentional mix of your lived experience,
sometimes even the much harder things, the wisdom that you
glean from those experiences, the skills that you've amassed this.

Speaker 4 (01:04:35):
Far in a variety of things.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Right, Like, maybe you were a cashier at sixteen, but
there's something that is stuck with you to this day
that serves you to this day about what you learned there.
So it's your lived experience and the wisdom from it.
It's the skills you've amassed thus far. It's the gifts
you came to this world with, right, those inherent things
that are naturally a part of who and what you

(01:04:59):
are and how you serve with them.

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
Simple formula thank.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
You, Yeah, really beautiful. And I feel like if people
really break those down, if you really sit with each
of those pieces of the formula, I feel like you'll
probably learn things that you didn't even realize about yourself
if you really start to reflect in your life. And
maybe a part of the reason why. And I can
speak to this because I feel like I've been lost
in my purpose quite a few times in my life

(01:05:28):
it's because you actually haven't got to know yourself in
that way. You know, when someone asked me, so, what
do you like doing? And I'm like, I don't really know,
but like you don't know because you haven't explored it.
You don't know because you haven't really sat in thought
what are those skills? What are those gifts? And you know,
I remember I would always be like, I don't really
think I have anything I was naturally born with. And
it was like, there's such a self deprecating part of

(01:05:49):
this too, where you may not know your purpose because
you actually haven't seen the value that you have in
the world. You haven't seen the gifts that have been
given to you from birth, and maybe you just haven't
recognized it all this time because you've been lost in
the things that you don't have, and you've been focusing
on the parts of you that you wish you had
and all those things. And so really, if you sit

(01:06:09):
with them, those are such brilliant questions, like such beautiful
questions to help someone truly deeply understand their purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
My goodness, and I love that you that you brought
that framing into it too, because it's like it's all connected, right,
it's like you can't find purpose without really investing in
your sense of worth because it's always going to be
requiring someone else's validation for you to believe it, you know.
And I think when it comes to what our inherent

(01:06:37):
gifts are, it's almost like you feel disappointed if if
you're not a singer, Yeah, exactly right, Like if I
don't have any gifts because you're not a famous singer,
like what do you what do you mean? I think
one of my biggest, greatest gifts, And even though a
lot of life informed this, I came to the earth
like this, Like I can sit at the bottom of
the ocean with someone right, and it's a pleasure to

(01:07:00):
do that right, you know, And like that's a gift
that that isn't something everyone can do.

Speaker 4 (01:07:06):
That's my gift. And it's not the shiniest.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
Gift necessarily to have, like being able to witness deep
pain in others. It's not necessarily the gift that puts
you on a billboard or you know, but it's my gift.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
It's my gift, and it's valuable, and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
It's so beautiful to even be able to say that.
I remember this one time I was with family, and
everyone's going around saying, like, what is it that you
think that you have received from your parents that's been
like a beautiful thing? And I remember this idea of
like and I guess it kind of links to like
false humility where it came around to me and I
was like, oh, I don't I don't even want to like,

(01:07:46):
am I am I being too boasty about myself if
I say this, or like the confidence with which you
said your gift, it's also such a beautiful thing because
you're also it's not saying it from a place of ego,
it's purely coming from a place of I've received this
and this has been my experience, and now I can
actually share this with other people. And I think there's
this especially for women, when you say, when you feel

(01:08:08):
like you're talking about your gifts or sharing the good
things about yourself, you feel like you're not being humble
enough and actually honoring them and recognizing them is actually
so little to do with ego and so much to
do with service. Yeah, and recognizing them is so much
to do with service, because you're like, well, if I
don't recognize them, I'm not gonna be able to use them,

(01:08:29):
which means I actually of no use to other people.
And that's usually when we feel the least valuable. In
my life, especially, Yeah, I don't know why I offer
the world, Like I remember that being a constant in
my mind. I was like, I don't know what I
have to offer the world. Then I used to see
I think it really got triggered when I saw what
Jay started doing in his life, and he was so
in his purpose and like he lived it, breathed it.

(01:08:51):
He was so in joy and like constantly in purpose.
And I was like, oh my god, I have absolutely
no flipping idea what am I here for? But what
beautiful place it was that I got to be in
that because it really made me excavate and like, you know, yeah,
to actually investigate what that was. And I think investigating

(01:09:12):
is such an important part of this process.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
God, yes, oh my gosh, and I think too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Sometimes this weird thing happens with women. I don't know
if it happens with everyone, but it's like we're being
kind of gas lit in a very specific way where
it's like even in some of the same rooms where
people are telling you to like own your worth, own
your purpose, and then the second you try that on.

(01:09:39):
Then people are like, oh right, chill out, like okay,
you're not all that, or you're like, well, what the hell?

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
I just got my confidence in this, and now you
are knocking me back down.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Now you're knocking me back down. Or even when we
say things like how am I meant to serve the world?
How am I meant to bring my purpose to the world?
You don't have to think about the world as a
planet of nine billion. It's your world and not influencing
nine billion people, which who does There are people alive

(01:10:09):
that have never heard the name Jesus.

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
There are people alive like and think about that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
How I use that as a specific example because of
how permeating Christianity is and how ancient there's people that
to me, it is shocking. You know, maybe somewhere in
some corner of the world haven't heard of Oprah, which
blows my mind because I'm like, ah, you know, but
it's like, it's about you bringing your purpose to your world,

(01:10:36):
to your ecosystem. Five people is plenty, yes, twenty people
has plenty, a few hundred and a few thousand. Some
are meant to guide millions.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
It doesn't mean they're better or their purpose is more important.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
It's just that happens to be the way they're meant
to be used exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
It's so true, And I think we minimize our impact
by looking at those metrics. Ye it's like, oh, what
am I going to do? What's the point of me?
Even when my friends said, what's the point of me
posting this? And I'm like, but what you just said
was so amazing. Then you have like two hundred people
that could hear this and one that might say one
person from wanting to leave this world wanting to not

(01:11:16):
be here because of your experience. And so I think
we really minimize the impact because of how we see
people with forty two million followers or whatever it is,
we minimize the impact of even if you're not on
social media, what about the people just around you that
you see every single day, the people you work with,
the people that are within your family. Like, that's you
impacting way more people than people were able to do

(01:11:38):
back in the day.

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
And that's actually what our work is right now, I think,
right because too many people are conditioned to this current
zeitgeist and think it is about the likes or the
follows or people in other states I'll never visit or countries,
I'll never be.

Speaker 4 (01:11:53):
Need to know who I am.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
And it's like we all need a deep refresh on
how to show up for the people that are in
our physical, actual, real worlds.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
I always said this gem like I random, I have
these random thoughts, and I'm like, do you think we
were supposed to travel? Like do you think in life
we were supposed to go to other places and meet
all these different people? Or were we supposed to stay
as they did back in the day, like in our communities,
creating these really solid structures and frameworks with the people
and the cultures and the community that we are from

(01:12:26):
and and actually build that out in a beautiful way.
And would the world just be like so much better
set had we not known what else was there? And like, anyway,
that's for a different topic, but now it just reminded me.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
Of what you said that I've been thinking thoughts like
that too. Yeah, I so feel that, and I think
it's important we the pendulum always swings right, So like
so many people weren't seeing the world and needed.

Speaker 4 (01:12:52):
To be expanded until we've.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Had this surgeon like global travel and now it's an
opportunity to bring some learnings back, yes, and deal a
little bit more with less.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
We'll have an existential question podcast at some point. But
thank you so much. Oh my god, I could just
honestly sit and talk to you for hours, but I
think it's already been an hour. So thank you so much.
And this was honestly such a such it was it
was a conversation I needed today. Honestly, it was beautiful.
Thank you, and everybody go out and get Living in

(01:13:24):
Wisdom by Davy? Is it Davy? Don't say right? You
know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (01:13:30):
I know Depak always calls me David.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
How do you pronounce it for me? Debbie?

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
Yeah, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
I received both because you suit the name Davy, I'll
say it.

Speaker 4 (01:13:39):
I feel connected.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Yes, Debbie Brown, Living in Wisdom such a beautiful book.
And if any of this resonated with you, then this
book is going to be everything that you need. Thank you,
thank you. Yes, as

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Host

Radhi Devlukia

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