March 25, 2025 • 52 mins
Are you really okay, or have you just become good at pretending?
Many of us go through the motions—showing up, performing, and pushing through—while feeling disconnected, drained, and on the edge. If this resonates with you, you’re not alone.
In this episode of A Really Good Cry, I talk to Dr. Judith Joseph, a psychiatrist and mental health expert, about high-functioning depression. We dive into why some of the most seemingly “put-together” individuals are struggling in silence, and how suppressing pain can also dull our capacity for joy. We explore how people-pleasing and overachievement often serve as coping mechanisms, and discuss small but impactful changes that can help you reconnect with yourself.
Dr. Judith also shares the 5 Vs, a science-based approach to finding balance, processing emotions, and rediscovering joy.
If you’ve ever felt like you should be fine but aren’t, this episode is for you.
Check out:
Book on High Functioning Depression:
https://highfunctioningbook.com/
First Peer-Reviewed Clinical Study in the world on High Functioning Depression:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39963293/
What We Discuss:
00:00 Intro
00:58 Why some people seem happy—but are actually depressed
04:16 The key difference between sadness and depression
06:26 How to tell if you’re experiencing high-functioning depression
09:33 If you don’t know your values, others won’t either
12:27 How to know if your values are really yours
16:22 The key to longevity that most people overlook
19:46 Anhedonia: The silent indicator of mental health struggles
23:25 The one question that could save a life
29:21 Why men and women experience depression differently
33:45 The Science of Joy: How to get more of it daily
36:40 How toxic environments drain your energy
39:44 The truth about antidepressants and mental health
44:45 Why do we self-sabotage?
47:56 The power of naming your emotions
49:48 Understand the science of your happiness
Follow Dr. Judith:
- https://drjudithjoseph.com/
- https://www.facebook.com/drjudithjoseph/
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmHQJaOerTsZJfOtiYz4sOg
- https://www.instagram.com/drjudithjoseph/
- https://www.tiktok.com/@drjudithjoseph
Follow Radhi:
- https://www.instagram.com/radhidevlukia/
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxWe9A4kMf9V_AHOXkGhCzQ
- https://www.facebook.com/radhidevlukia1/
- https://www.tiktok.com/@radhidevlukia
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
That when we push down our pain and we don't
process it, we also push down our joy.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Today we have doctor Judith Joseph.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
She's a renowned psychiatrist and a leading expert in mental
health who has dedicated her life and career to helping
people overcome challenges and live fuller, more meaningful life.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Trauma and depression have that core belief that you're not worthy.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
People who were in the limelight and then suddenly committed
suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, they were
just dancing and singing, what happened to that person? No,
I've heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had
no idea that person was suffering.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So when you have someone who's the rock, who's always
on the go, you know, there's a term called annaedonia
where you may be doing things that you used to love,
but now you're just going through the motions, but when
you go home, you're not really happy.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Trying to really understand your emotions also comes with trying
to create a better vocabulary for it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
If you can pinpoint how you feel you're less anxious
about it, you know what to do about that feeling.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm RADI w Kiah and on my podcast, A Really
Good cris we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing
a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and
allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find
comfort together.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Hi, everyone, welcome back.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
To this week's episode of A Really Good Cry. Today
we have doctor Judith Joseph. She's a renowned psychiatrist and
a leading expert in mental health who has dedicated her
life and career to helping people overcome challenges and live fuller,
more meaningful lives. Her new book, High Functioning, Overcome Your
Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy is so insightful and
(01:33):
such a practical guide for those who look fine on
the outside but aren't fine on the inside. Doctor Judith,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
For being here.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I'm very excited to go through this book with you.
I read it from top to bottom and I found
it so fascinating. So thank you for the work that
you're doing and I can't wait to dive into it.
I would love if you could just explain the premise
of the book and what led you to writing it.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Clinical depression, as most people know it is when people
have these symptoms such as low concentration, poor sleep, not
feeling hungry, or changes an appetite, changes in your mood
so like feeling sad, and also something called anhedonium, which
is a lack of interest and pleasure in things that
once really lit you up and brought you joy. However,
(02:19):
using the DSM five, which is the bible of psychiatry
that I use in my research and my private practice
every day, under that if you have these symptoms of
depression but you still are functioning or you're not in
like significant distress, you technically don't have clinical depression. But
what I was seeing after twenty twenty was a lot
of people coming in having these symptoms of depression but overfunctioning,
(02:41):
meaning they were like showing up. There were the rocks.
They were overperforming, and that was their way of dealing
with their depression. But there was no place for them
in this bible of psychiatry. So that led me to think, Okay,
I wonder how many people out there are experiencing this,
and there was a real need to study it. Most
of my colleagues were saying, oh, high functioning depression, that's
not real. You know, clinical regular depression that more important.
(03:02):
I thought, well, if we're only waiting for people to
break down to intervene, then we're just like missing the boat. Yeah,
why don't we prevent this from happening? And that led
me to conduct the first ever per reviewed study in
the world on high functioning depression that was published, and
I've had fascinating findings and I just wanted to share
that with the world.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I actually had somebody on that was sharing about high
functioning codependency recently, and I think people can really relate
to the idea of showing up even more and trying
to busy yourself when you are feeling certain feelings. And
when you think of depression, you know, my mind is
don't want to wake up in the morning, don't want
to see anyone. You know, the way that you imagine
(03:44):
someone who is depressive to be would be in the
stereotypical way. But you know, when I've heard about people
committing suicide or the shocks that you have of people,
You're like, wait, they didn't look depressed at all. They
were showing up to work, they were dancing, they were happy,
they were laughing. And so when I read the book,
I was like, I feel like there's probably more people
(04:05):
out there with high functioning depression then there are people
who are actually showing up in the traditional way that
you see depression.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Being Yeah, I think you're right. Think about the queue
in line. If you think about people breaking down and
then people lead having these symptoms but overfunctioning and showing up,
it makes sense that there would be more people in
the queue, right, And spot on with busying yourself. One
of the findings in my study was a high correlation
with trauma, And in my trauma research, when people want
(04:35):
to avoid processing pain, what do they do. They busy themselves.
They distract themselves. So the classic avoidance you see in
PTSD is not wanting to be around the situations, the people,
the places that trigger you. But another more atypical presentation
is busying yourself to avoid the things that you're trying
(04:56):
to not deal with. But the problem with that is
that when we pushed our pain and we don't process it,
we also push down our joy and that leads to
something called anne hardonia, which is a lack of joy
and pleasure and things that once lit us up.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
So you said that when we push down our pain,
we also push down our joy. Yes, how did the
two correlate? I'm intrigued.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
When you're avoiding feeling something, Yeah, you don't want to feel,
you avoid and you push you like on an unconscious
level or even conscious, you just don't want to feel
at all, so you busy yourself. But when you distract
yourself from feeling at.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
All, yes, then you construct stuff from all feeling.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, it's almost like you feel this numbness. And I
often hear people describe depression or even when I've been
in long periods where I felt sad for there's a
feeling of numbness that you end up going through because
you don't want to feel the pain. And then also
if you don't want to feel one for emotion, it
kind of locks you off from.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Everything else it does.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
What would you say is the difference for someone you
know trying to understand whether they're just sad or whether
they're depressed, Like, how do you differentiate between the two?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Sadness is an typical human experience, but depression may feel
very heavy, It may feel as if you can't get
out of the fog. And the clinical depression it has
specific symptoms, you know, the one that we treat in
the DSM FIB of the Bible psychiatry, all of these
this plethora of symptoms. To have clinical depression, you have
(06:19):
to meet criteria for at least two weeks or more
of all of these different symptoms, and they have to
lead you to have a lack of functioning or a
significant distress. What I'm finding with high functioning depression is
that you have people who have all these symptoms of depression,
but they're not breaking down. They're overfunctioning. So there's no
place for them in the diagnostic manual. There's no place
(06:42):
for these people who are showing up, who are the rocks?
And I thought, well, why are we waiting for them
to break down? Why don't we intervene before they break down?
And there's this renaissance in like physical health, with longevity science.
You hear a lot of people saying, you know, let's
catch heart disease before it happens, let's catch ossioporosis, let's
use HRT to prevent all these issues in women, you know,
(07:03):
in terms of looking at the perimenopause and menopause, but
there's nothing like that for mental health. And I want
to change that. I want us to intervene before people
break down, before their bodies give, before they develop unhealthy
ways of soothing with their pain like substances and overuse
of technology and so forth.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
What would you say are some self reflective questions that
people can ask themselves to really assess whether they, you know,
are going towards that or are actually in a depressive
or high functioning depressive state.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think it's important to number one validate. So in
my book, I talk about the five v's, and the
reason that I use five is because most people have
five fingers. Most of us do, and so if you
imagine that, you know, happiness and joy are built into
our DNA as humans, right, we all have dopamine in
our brains. We just forgot how to access joys. So
(07:56):
I like to use the hand because I always say,
using one of these five v's that are evidence based,
joy is within reach. You just have to relearn how
to access your joy. Because when you think about babies,
and I treat small children when they go around on
the floor and they're exploring the world as toddlers, they're
tasting things, they're feeling, they're laughing. They don't need much
(08:16):
to access joy. But as we get older, as we
go through trauma, as we get distracted, as things happen
to us, we lose touch of that ability to access
joy easily. So the five's help and the first is validation.
And what does that mean. It means acknowledging how you feel,
no matter if it's perceived positive or perceived negative emotion.
Accept it and it's important. And it sounds cheesy, but
(08:39):
if we don't acknowledge the pain, we can't acknowledge the joy.
And as humans, we need to know what's happening, and
we don't know how we feel when things are uncertain.
We're anxious, you know, we don't feel present, we feel frustrated,
we feel lost. So the first step is really validation, and.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Do you want to go through the other vias?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yes. The second is venting. So if you imagine, like
venting is a physics term where air is trapped and
then when you release that and the pressure goes down.
So when we express how we feel, then that allows that,
you know. That's why when you go to therapy sometimes
you just you feel good. But not everyone is a
verbal you know, expressor and I work with a lot
(09:19):
of neurodiversion clients and so not everyone feels that it's
easy to verbally express. So there are other ways. With
the artists that I work with, they dance, they sing,
they paint. Others like to write in journals to express.
Others cry. I know your podcast, you know the day
and that crying is good for you, But there's science
behind that. When you cry, you really let out these
(09:41):
hormones that and you feel better. That's why we have
tear dys not just to moisten our eyes so that
they stay functioning, but also so that we can release
you know, that angst at times, that pain, so venting
is very important. And then the third is the values.
And I often say that values are thing that are priceless, right,
(10:02):
not price tag and I like my fancy things, but
at the end of the day, when I'm on my
death bed, I'm not going to be like I want,
you know, right, I usually say proud of it, but yeah,
like you know, the things that bring you purpose and
meaning in life, like your family, your faith, the causes
that you believe in, things like nature. You know, these
(10:24):
are like priceless, so tap into that as much as
you daily.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, yeah, it was so interesting recently I was talking
to a friend and we were talking about the fact
that he feels like people don't value him, and they said,
you know what I reflected on, and I was like,
unless you have values, people don't know how to value you.
And you know, growing up, I had specific things that
I was really attached to. I was like, I love animals,
and that's something I really value. I know, I don't
(10:48):
want to drink alcohol, so I know that that's one
of my values. And so as I grew up, these
values actually ended up also forming how people saw me,
and they saw it when I valued something, it created
a sense of value in their mind of me. But
if you don't find the values that you have and
you don't know them, it's not only difficult for you
to value yourself, it actually reflects on how other people
(11:11):
also value you. And so it's really I really appreciated
that when I read that in your book, because I
was really thinking about it this week, and I was like, Yeah,
if you don't have values, then other people also don't
know how to value you because they don't see that
through you.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Well, I talk about with my own personal jone journey
I would grew up in a pastor's home a spiritual home, yes,
and we would often help the community. We'd go out
every and we used to complain about it as kids,
but now I'm so grateful. But every weekend we spent
so much time helping people in the community, be it
like the YNCA or like a retirement home. You know,
(11:44):
I went into medicine to help people, but then, you know,
the accolades got in the way, going to Ivy League institutions,
getting another degree, opening a lab, getting the right studies,
being competitive. And then after a while, I found myself
feeling very empty and lost interesting and I had to
tap back into well, what fed me, you know, spiritually,
and it was being connected to people. I'm one of
(12:04):
four siblings. I like to be in a team, even
my team and my lab. I was losing sight of
feeling connected because I was so like chasing the clout.
But then when I tapped into okay, what's really important,
you know, like feeling connected to my community, that grounded me.
And at the time, I was going through a divorce
and I realized, you know, I was changed. I was
chasing these things that I'm not going to be on
(12:26):
my deathbed thinking, oh, I wish I got a JD
on top of the MDMBA. Right, I'm going to be
like I wish I spent more time helping people and
being connected with people, right, And that just shifted my approach.
You know, I had to tap into values as well.
And I'm a psychiatrist, So if it doesn't come naturally
to me, imagine how many people out there just meet
that reminder. So I have all these tools in my
(12:46):
book just to help people find their way back to,
you know, the values based on what I've done in
my clinical practice over the years. Because a lot of
people forget their past because of trauma. They don't realize
that memories get buried. So people say, well, I don't
remember what it was like that, I don't remember what
I valued as a kid. And then you trace back
and you realize there was a trauma. Maybe it was
(13:07):
their own parents divorce, maybe there was a loss, maybe
something bad happened to them, you know, in school or
with their friend group, and they just don't remember what
it was like to be lit up by something that
brought them purpose. So there are all these tools in
that book to really help people find their values again.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It's so interesting isn't it where no matter what stage
of life you're in, Like, even for you, you know
the theory, it's like doctors, even if they're treating patients
for their health, if they've got heart disease or whatever,
it's like, theoretically, we know what's right, and so for you,
theoretically you knew what you should be doing or needed
to be happy. But there's one thing about theory and
then there's another part to its practice.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It just find it so fascinating that in.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Every stage of life, whether it's like celebrities wanting to
get more and more in life, whether it's you as
a doctor who's got all these incredible degrees and being
able to help people so much, or even if I
think of myself, it's like, okay, cool, I get to
help people with their health or through they're cooking. But
when you attached to the wrong things, it completely takes
away the benefits you think you're going to get. Like
(14:07):
when you attached to the wrong things, nothing feels valuable.
So yeah, I guess connecting to your values is such
a core principle to actually feel content and satisfied in life.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I love your use of the word attached because when
we think of attached, we think of attachment to others. Yes,
but you're absolutely right. You can attach to the wrong
value set and you think that you're doing the right
thing because everyone else told you, But you're not being
authentic to yourself, right, And so really examining what gives
(14:37):
I use these very primitive terms full and fed, oh yeah,
because some people don't know, you know, they've again pushed
around feelings. So I said, well, think about feeling full
and fed and whole and satisfied.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
It's going to ask what do you think are ways
if people don't feel like they understand their values, are
their questions they can ask themselves? Or how do you
get to the point of understanding what your values truly are?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I have a ton of tools that I use because
you know, you said that doctors don't follow their own advice.
Doctors are some of the most depressed people. You know,
there's high rates of suicide within residents, and doctors tend
to have poor health because they're so busy looking after
their patients that they don't look after themselves. And they're
the people that are at least likely to catch high
(15:20):
functioning depression because it's like looking in the mirror, right,
because they're overfunctioning, overperforming, they're not dealing with their own pain,
so they're like, oh, come back when you're broken, because
that's what they're used to. They identify as being healers,
not preventors. Right. But the ways that I ask people
to tap into their values is sometimes we'll go through
a trip down memory lane and we'll go to a
memory that was the last memory that they can retrieve
(15:44):
where they're actually feeling full and fed, and then we
try to figure out what happened at that time or
if they really can't access the memory because of trauma
and the brain pushed it down. I have other exercises
where I say, well, if you had one person that
you could have dinner with, anyone, you know, they may say, oh,
Jimi Hendrix, right, And it's like, oh, I wonder why
because the person is not an artist, But why why
(16:07):
Jimmy Hendrix? Well, because you know he was doing things
for a black man at that time that were so
cutting edge. And then you realize, oh, so you're into innovation,
so is that something that used to value? And then
the person goes, oh, yeah, you know, when I was younger,
I used to tinker a lot. I don't do that anymore.
So with that individual, I'll say, okay, well, let's slowly
(16:27):
expose you to tinkering again, experimenting again. Maybe the first
day you look up online robotics, right, and then the
second day you look up a class, and maybe the
next week you walk by the class you peek in,
or maybe you don't. Maybe the following week you look
at a video online, right, and you take baby steps
back to things that the person valued. Another example I
(16:48):
have is someone who you know was in a city
and she was feeling a hedonic and it turned out
that one of her core memories was built in a
time when her family was together, and she didn't remember.
She valued she was in a busy, big city, important position.
But then we realized that she worked, you know, with
her family, should go camping a lot, and she didn't
have access to nature. So we had to work all
(17:09):
way back into nature and she felt full and fed. Again.
It wasn't like she was cured, but at least the
little steps of it correct. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Wow, okay, so we've got validation values. There was on
venting validation venting values, and then there's two movies and right.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
There's vitals. I always say to my daughter every night,
you know, there's only one you. There will only ever
be one you. You are so special. And I tell
my patients this too, And it's such a game changer
for people who feel lost, right because many people are like,
why am I here? Well, think about the the chances
of the universe making it so that you exist, because
(17:48):
there will only ever be one you, and that sense
of awe is so important. So what do you have
to do since there's only one you? You got to take
care of your body. Yes, you have a body and brain.
You'll only get one you know. Yeah, we haven't figured
out the science. One day will, but right now we
have it. So take care of your body and brain.
And within the vital section. I have the traditional things
you know that a doctor will tell you, like sleep, movement,
(18:09):
you know, eating nutritious foods that feed your brain and body.
But also there are things that we need to take
care of our body. In terms of you know, technology,
We don't know the long term effects of technology exposure
on the adult brain. We know a lot about children,
so you know, set healthy boundaries with your work with technology.
And also the number one predictor of longevity is relationships,
(18:30):
So don't discount the quality of relationship relationships. A toxic
person will drain your life force, you know, So sunvitals.
There's a lot, right, I don't want people to get overwhelmed,
but just pick one or two. And then the fifth
is vision because when we're so busy accomplishing and checking
off the boxes, we're onto the next. Right, I'm guilty
(18:52):
of this as well. But celebrate your wins. So like
for you, for example, after this podcast, celebrating a wind
can be having a a step of tea or just
like observing nature and saying, wow, I did that. You
know that was hard, Like I interviewed guests and I
listened and I validated, and you know I had to
take it in and you know, I should really reward
myself for that, right, So celebrating the winds in today
(19:15):
because tomorrow is not promised. And then you know, planning
join the future because that keeps you moving forward instead
of getting stuck in the past.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, that's nice, planning joy in the future. That's so true.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
And I think people get so used to having such
monotonous days where they feel like every single day is
the same, but actually if you observe, so many different
things can happen in the day that you're not even
realizing because you are stuck in that robotic behavior. So
I imagine celebrating in different ways every single day, even
if it is you doing the same thing every day.
There's so much satisfaction and power that comes with consistency,
(19:49):
and that should also be rewarded. It's like, Wow, you
showed up to work seven days a day, or like
you showed up to work for the past twenty years
without taking awready, Like that's there's so many things to
be celebrated that people take f are granted in themselves,
And I think having that mood is so important because
otherwise you also don't appreciate the things that you're doing
in your own life or yourself in that way.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, I mean today it was a very busy day
for me. LA is hard to get around, it is,
But I know that I'm going to get a massage
when I get to the airport and I'm going to
treat myself. But it doesn't have to be monetary, right,
It could be as small as getting your kid to
school on time. Like that's a struggle for me too,
exactly right, So after I get my daughter to school
on time, you know, I'm like, wow, that was hard.
I'm going to sit in my living room and enjoy
(20:31):
my coffee and just savor it instead of you know,
jumping it and then leaving and going to work. Right,
So it could be the simple things. Yeah, it doesn't
have to be grand.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
So sure, what are some of the lesser known signs
of depression that peeping often overlook.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Anna Donia is a term that's been in the medical
literature since the eighteen hundred.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Well, yeah, it was the first time I actually heard
of it when I read your work.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
You know. What's surprising is that I went to a
therapy conference recently and I asked these tops I call
just in the world and therapists what anatonia was, and
they were like, I don't remember, you know, And I
was like, wow. So if therapists don't know to ask
you about it, then this is a symptom that's being overlooked.
And I think it's such a common experience to feel.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Like h or.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Checked out, not really feeling much because we are so
muted in terms of accessing joy these days. There's so
many distractions, right, We're constantly on the phone. We're getting
our dogmine hits. And what happens is that after a while,
your brain gets so accustomed to all these hits that
you don't access joy in more, you know, stimulating ways,
(21:40):
such as through connection with others, through being outside, you know,
through eating food and not looking at a screen, something
as simple as that. Some of us can't even go
to the bathroom without looking at a.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Screen, you know. Yes, I've been.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I can definitely put my hand up to that. I'm like,
see my phone outside, Why am I teaking it with me?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
All so gross? Right?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, but yeah, these are simple things like when you're
with your pet, if you're like on your phone your
pet is like not getting that full experience, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Having that full cycle of connection, like the exchange that
actually fuels both both people in that interaction.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, And I often say that, like anadonia is contagious
if you're if there's a leader, and we've all had
bosses that you know, they weren't happy and then we
all weren't happy as a result, right, the same way
anadonia is contagious, Joy is contagious. So if you can
you know, rejuvenate your organization with a bit of joy,
you'll see people coming in feeling more energized, not just
(22:40):
about work, but about seeing each other. And that's why
it's important. It's not it's a very sneaky symptom. You know.
I say that depression is like twin sisters. You know,
they're they're fraternal, they're not identical on the outside. So
one is, you know, weepy and crying and in bed,
and the other sister is just muted. Right, But who
gets the attention the one who's weepy, the one who's muted.
(23:02):
At least they're not in crisis. But that's a mistake
we're making in the healthcare industry, is that we're not
really addressing you know, things like anaidonia, which are markers
for other things like depression, trauma, substance use, schizophrenia. We
have to address the lack of joy, not just be
about like eradicating depression, but cultivating joy.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
It's so interesting because I guess, on one hand, you've
got the high functioning where they're allowed, they're they're present,
you notice them in you know, you notice them in
a room. They're very they're very noticeable. And then you've
got this other this other side, which is how do
you say and herdonia where actually they're just quiet and
in the background, and it just shows that there's such
(23:46):
a spectrum of depression or what symptoms you can have
of depression, where we have to be so much more
observant of the people around us, because you know, I've
heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had no
idea that person was suffering. You know, we had a
friend who passed away and had like drugs in their system.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
No one knew they were taking drugs.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
You know, people who were in the limelight and then
suddenly committed suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh,
they were just dancing and singing. What happened to that person?
And so I guess a big part of it also,
I was just thinking of the question of how can
people who are maybe around someone who seems to be
presenting with depressive symptoms, how can they help that person, Like,
(24:27):
what can we do for that person?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Well, well, I'm sorry about your friend who passed. And
you know, I've heard so many stories like that where
people are wearing a mask of productivitys, especially in the
entertainment industry and the arts, where you can't show up
to an audition and be sad because you won't get
the gig right, So you're kind of stuck being happy,
forced happy, performing and no one knows you're struggling. And
(24:52):
you know what I would ask about. My goal is
to really make the word antiedonia known. So when you
have someone who's the rock, who's always on the go,
who doesn't seem to need your help, or who's masking
a lot, I would ask about ant hodonia, you know.
I would say, like, you know, there's a term called
antedonia where you may be doing things that you used
to love, but now you're just going through the motions.
(25:13):
You're going just to perform, but when you go home
you're not really happy, you know. I would ask them
about that, you know, and help them to get back
into their body and not judge them, because the other
thing about people with high functioning depression is that they
tend to people please, you know. I say there are
three risk factors trauma, unprocessed trauma, an hondonia right, not
(25:33):
feeling joy, and then something I called masochism, which used
to be in the Bible psychiatry they took it out.
Now it's known as people pleasing where you don't want
to disappoint others, You bend over backwards, you perform even
though you don't want to, right, So those are the hallmarks.
So these are people who don't want to tell you
that they're struggling. They feel guilty when they ask for help,
(25:54):
They feel ungrateful when they slow it down. Right, let
them know that you're there, no matter why, and then
don't wait for them to ask. You know, if you
see they're not eating, well, bring some food over. If
you see that they're isolating, just sit with them. You know,
if you see they're overperforming, you know they're constantly busy,
allow them to slow down, say hey, we could just chill.
(26:16):
We don't got to do this, and that. You know,
when people feel seen, they change. They feel as if
you know they don't have to do these things, they
don't have to mask, they can show their real selves
and just realize that this is likely coming from a
place of trauma. And trauma in itself makes people feel shame.
When people are traumatized and bad things have happened, they
(26:37):
internalize blame. It's our way of controlling the world. And
so my children, when something bad happens, they think they
have magical thinking, like well, maybe if I had done
my homework while Daddy would have stayed, or like you
know this, Grandpa wouldn't have died, right, And that magical
thinking carries into adulthood. For some with unprocessed trauma, you know,
(26:58):
they internalize that shame. Well, maybe if I were like this,
maybe if I did things differently, And then they don't
ask for helps, So don't wait for them. Be there
even when they don't look like they need help.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I actually recently watched Trevoranoa talking about this on stage.
I don't know where he was, but he was saying
that one of his favorite things to do with his
friends because he was noticing that, you know, maybe they
weren't sharing as much now. Every time he meets with
his friends, they ask each other like what are you
struggling with? And the fact is that question isn't asked enough,
like what do you need help with right now?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
How are you feeling right now?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Like even the simple question of actually sitting down and
I'm like, hey, how are you? But like how are
you feeling right now? What are you struggling with? And
I think those questions, you know, were so used to
having fun with friends and hanging out with them, and
kind of it can get quite surface level quite easily,
and you feel like you're close because you see each
other often.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
But are you asking the right questions? And so he said.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I can't remember exactly what he asked, but it was
essentially along the lines of let's all go around the
circle and say what we're struggling with, because not only
does that bring us close together, we also get to
understand how we can help one another, Like in this
group of people that we have as friends, are we
here to just have fun or are we here to
actually support one another? And I thought that was really
beautiful because I think it's so easy.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
To avoid those conversations.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And you know, you show up to your friend group
and a lot of the time, you know, with girls
and with guys, you want to show up as like
I'm doing well, my work's good, my family's good, my
girlfriend's good, like everything is good. And I think you
want to show up as being this version of yourself
if especially if people have perceived you in that way
for a long period. So when you and I think
that's even harder, like when people seem like they've got
(28:36):
it good and people have that perception almost breaking that
you feel like you're breaking their identity of you and
you're showing up as weak ye, And so you can
continue that for such a long period until there's a
breaking point. And so just asking questions to your friends,
like anybody listening, when was the last time you ask
some of your closest friends of what you're struggling with
(28:57):
right now?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
What can I help you with?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
And I think having that regular conversation topics is so
important and could probably save someone, Like I always think
about that one conversation, that one smile, that one interaction,
that one genuine connection, that one moment when you just
sat with someone for five minutes longer, you have no
idea how much it could be saving the other person.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
If you think about that person in your friend group,
maybe they can't do that in front of a group.
Maybe they have to do it privately. So for that individual,
it may be a walk, right, yeah, you know, come
with me on a walk and we don't have to
say anything, and let's observe nature and let's just like
let it flow organically like that. Sometimes people they don't
want to talk at all, So it could be going
(29:41):
to a gallery and looking at different art, right, everyone's
so different, and just showing up in the way that
that person can accept it so that they don't feel
that added pressure, because sometimes, you know, we do things
we want to help, but then we're like prying it
out of the person and they're like, well, I wish
I never said anything, you know, And that's where you know,
therapy is just so della. You know, when you go
to a therapist, you know, therapists don't pull it out
(30:04):
of you. They they're on this process with you. So
when you think about working with a friend who doesn't share,
try to figure out the way that they can best
communicate it that feels authentic to them so they don't
feel too exposed, but just be empathic.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
From all the research you've done on depression, what have
been some of the most shocking things that you found
out or things that you weren't expecting with depression?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You know, I always knew that women were twice as
likely to have depression, twice as likely, twice as likely
to have depression and anxiety compared to men. Wow, Yeah,
isn't that fascinating?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
It is fascinating because I also thought that women had
a higher emotional capacity and the capacity to receive pain,
to endure pain, to turn pain into goodness. Like in
my mind, I thought women are just so built for
resistance and adversity that I wasn't expecting it to.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Be that high. Yeah, I kind of thought it would
be other way around.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Honestly, I think you're right and that we can take
on more. We don't show as much, but with the
actual stats, we are more likely to have depression and
anxiety twice as likely. But men are more likely to
die by suicide, right, So that's the difference. The suicide
is what people take seriously, right, and they should. That
is a crisis. But the fact that many of us
(31:19):
are walking around pushing through pain. Right. This book is
for women specifically too, because they tend to push through
pain all their lives. Think about when you first got
your period, right, you were told everyone gets it. You know,
I have two sisters, the three of us. Everyone gets it,
so you should be fine even though you're like taking
a you know, algebra test and you're an excruciating cramps
and you're like, well, push through it, and you have
(31:41):
cheerlead to practice afterwards, you know, And then you think about,
like PMDD, which is the pre mental mood issues that
some women have. Right, they're told, well, you know, why
do you have to take off from work? Because every
woman gets their period? Right? And then postpartum depression, Well,
women give birth, you know, like my mom had five kids.
It's like, but did you know eighty percent of women
(32:02):
have the blues? Like what's up with that? You know?
And then perimenopause and menopause you know, are hormones. They
make us more vulnerable. And there's only one psychiatrist for
every thirty thousand people in this country in some parts.
So I thought, why are we keeping this science for ourselves?
Like why are we being greedy and stingy with it?
So in my book, I talk about things that I
learned as a medical student that we write up when
(32:24):
we see you, but we don't share it. So like
I want everyone to learn to understand the science of
their own happiness. So know the science of your happiness,
because the science of your happiness is not the same
as mine. Even though we're both women, right, we have
different experiences. We all have a bio psychosocial it's a
Venn diagram, but our experiences within the biopsychosocial are different.
(32:45):
So there's an exercise in the book where you can actually,
you know, circle your biopsychosocial and look at your biological
risk factors. So, as women, we go through changes once
a month.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right, yeah, too often.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And we also may have issues like I have low
thyroid puts me at risk for depression anxiety. You know,
you may have medical issues that put you at risk,
or your family history. And then psychologically you have different
trauma than I do, maybe different attachment styles, who knows,
maybe similar you know, different resiliency factors, but within that
understand it personally, I came to this country when I
(33:19):
was very small, we had very little, so that scarcity
trauma drives a lot of my high functioning depression. Right.
And then socially, you know, I live in New York,
you live in California. We have different surroundings, we have
different jobs. I'm a single mom, I have a busy business.
There are a lot of stressors. But then think about
things in your social life, like your relationships. You know
(33:40):
your work environment, how much you're drinking, or you know
the foods that you eat. We all have our own
biopsychosocial and so I recently gave a talk to like
three hundred women and it had them draw their biopsychosocials
and they were all so different. Right, we're all humans, right,
we all have the DNA to have joy, but our
joy is going to be different and our experiences. So
(34:01):
understand the science of your own happiness and then you
can use the tools. That's why so many people they
read a book, they watch something on you know, social media,
and they're like, well, I tried that. It didn't work
for me, But did you understand the science of your happiness?
Because how are you using these tools when you don't
even understand yourself?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Right?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
So I wanted to democratize that. And yes, one of
the things that I found was that women tend to
push through pain, and in my research caregivers, they're the
ones that are feeling overwhelmed, right, Yeah, I imagine because
they can't stop. You know, ask any mom who's busy,
who has a working and they don't have a choice.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
They don't choice that they're making. Yeah, they have to
show up.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So even though they want to shut down, they can't.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
How can someone create moments of joy when they feel
overwhelmed by sadness? Like well, you know you've been talking
about joy so much and the science of your own joy.
What are some of the things that you found have
been known to bring joy to people? Like without film,
if you do this, this can probably bring you some
joy in your life.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Well, I go back to the five v's, right, because
you I don't tell people to do all five at once,
because people will get overwhelmed, deflated and feel like they
you know that they give up. It's it's similar when
you see these like these skin routines and you're like,
I cannot do all that.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, and also my skin does not look like that
when but when I do that routine.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
I saw a video of a woman who was like
wrapped from my head to toe and I'm like, uh,
but so like do one or two a day if possible,
tappen too one or two of the v's. It's so
interesting because I have this research lab that's very scientific,
and then I have the happiness lab that's really my
passion projects, right, and so when people come to the
happiness lab, they're like, I just want to be happy.
(35:37):
When people come to the research lab, we're trying to
eradicate depression. So there's this like disconnect between the real
world and research. So it's a reframe. Right. When I
ask patients to come to therapy, you know what is
happiness for you? They it's all a list of things.
It's ideas, right like when I get that you know
job that I want, that partner at that house, you
(35:57):
know the stuff, this idea of happiness. Whereas when you
think of happiness and the research, you don't find that
word happy. You find points that make up pleasure. Right,
So like when you are hungry, did you savor your food?
When you were lonely? Did you feel connected to someone
when you were with people? Did you enjoy the interactions
(36:18):
when you got dressed for the day, did you feel
pride in the way that you look? Right? So, joy
is this plethora of sensations that you experience, whereas happiness
is this idea that you're trying to achieve. But the
science shows that when you get the thing that makes
you happy, you're still not happy, You're still chasing. So
it's a reframe. Try to get as many points of
(36:39):
joy in a day. So think about it as Okay,
today I got two points, Tomorrow maybe I'll get three points,
and maybe the next day I'll get zero points, but
I can always make it up the next day, right,
Versus I just want to be happy, because if you
are pushing to become happy, you're likely not going to
get happy when you get that thing that you think
will make you happy. Right, But try to increase your
points of joy every day. So when you're having your tea,
(37:02):
you're sipping your tea, you're tasting the herbs, you're feeling,
you go down, you're feeling relaxed, versus I'm in my friend,
my phone shopping while having my tea. You know, try
to be present in these physiological things that makes being
human human.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah, I'm about to say it sounds so much like
the underlying thing you're saying is presence. Like, create more
moments of presence, because if you're not present, you don't
recognize the moments of joy. You're not actually present for them.
You're not able to identify that this is a point
in time where I can feel the joy. Because you're
constantly torn in different directions you are.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Ask, what is something people don't realize contribute to their
mood and depression in a negative way? Like one thing
I loved in your book was the idea of like
seeing no evil, hearing no humans, speaking no evil.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
And I think people.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Don't realize how much of a difference those things make,
Like what you're allowing into your senses.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
We are always absorbing. And there was this all thought
that Okay, once you're twenty five, your brain's fully developed,
Off you.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Go do that.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Well, I mean, it's largely true that your brain forms
by the time you're twenty five, But there's something called
neuroplasticity where you're constantly changing. That's why the brain of
an eighty year old is not the same as a
twenty five year old, right, And so because you're constantly
changing based on you're surrounding, you need to surround yourself
with things that feed you. So if you're around people
(38:27):
who are negative, who are talking about others, you know,
gossip can be fun, but it can also get really dirty.
You know, if you're constantly seeing things that are not
pleasing to you, that aren't feeding you, right you're in
front of a screen, or you're in a place with
no light, or things that are not beautiful, you know,
then you're not getting that stimulation. If you're saying things
(38:49):
that are negative you're speaking into existence these things that
actually do impact you, then that's all changing the way
that you think. So true, and there's some urging research
that shows that when you're around people who are positive
and motivated, you become that way, just like when you're
around people who are draining and toxic, you become that way.
So don't discount the value the quality of your relationships
(39:13):
because the longevity science is showing that's a number one predictor. Right,
That's why loneliness is as dangerous as smoking cigarettes. Yeah,
so think about who you're around all day long. Really
think about the top three people, and if there are
people who are dragging you down, you have to think
about what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Yeah, I feel like we absorb so much more than
we think. You know, it's not just the food that
you're eating. Every single thing that you allow into your
senses is being absorbed into you and becoming you. And
so the words, the things that you're watching, the things
that you're smelling, the things that you're seeing, every single
thing is becoming you. So if there's an imbalance of
the things that are nourishing you versus the things that
(39:52):
are draining or taking from you, you're constantly going to
see that tip in the way that you're acting, feeling,
and living.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, and when you're too busy to really take stock
of your relationships. There are many people who are in
relation romantic relationships that are toxic, but they're like, well,
you know, like I'll just work on you know, something else.
So maybe they can't get out of it. It's not
so easy financial reasons. Maybe it's not safe. But this
all impacts you, right, and so everyone has their own
(40:20):
unique challenges. But when you're too busy to reflect, then
you can go a decade and be with the wrong person, right,
the wrong friend, you know, the wrong job. So it's
important to slow down when you're a human being instead
of a human doing you see more?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, you do?
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Because life, we only get one life.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Right, Yeah, so slow down present.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yes, I wanted to actually move on too depression medications
because you know, I actually do have a few friends
that have been put on medication for it, and I
would love to get your view on I would love
to get your view on it. I always have like
two I always battle between the thoughts of it. Obviously
I'm not an expat or, but I feel like a
lot of people are put onto depression medications so far
(41:00):
us and I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Well, you know, in some parts of America there's only
one psychiatrist for thirty thousand people. Think about that. If
I have thirty patients, I'm overwhelmed, you know. I stop
taking private patients in twenty nineteen, you know, and I'm
in a place I'm in New York where like there
are so many psychiatrists compared to everywhere else. So I
think what's happening is people don't have access to therapists,
(41:24):
you know, and people are struggling, you know, Like there's
also a stigma with regards to mental health because you know,
like you would never say to someone you know, oh
so you have high blood pressure, stop taking it, you know,
like you know, maybe you should just do this. In
that Not everyone has access to a gym. Not everyone
can't has the self control to eat properly. Some people
have genetic hypertension, right, the same with depression. Right. Not
(41:47):
everyone has access to a therapist when you finally do
get a therapist, and you have to afford one, when
you can't finally can't afford when they have to make
time for one, and when you finally make time for one,
then you have to practice it every day. Like that's
hard for some people they don't have the access, and
for some there's genetic you know, depression. It runs in
our family. So I think we have to remember that
the brain is a part of the body, you know,
(42:09):
and there's the biopsychosocial Right. The world is not the
way it was years ago. There's a lot more to
weigh on our systems, right, So you know, when people
get the support of medication, I think everyone should know
that it's not a cure all or else we'd all
be on an antipressant. There would be zero depression in
the world. Right. The depression medicines may help with sleep,
(42:29):
they may help people to finally feel regulated so they
can get through a day. They may perk up someone's
appetite who's not hungry. Right, You're treating a lot of
symptoms that are supporting someone and you're not necessarily curing it.
That's where the interventions, the behavioral things, the practices, they
make a difference.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
You know, some of my friends that have been on it,
they get get been on depressing depression medication. There's this
feeling of numbness that they always describe where like And
it's interesting because it sounded a little bit like anagonia. Yes,
on this medication for depression, but they're still feeling. Yes,
they get through their day, they're able to like function better,
They're able to get to work, they're able to be
(43:10):
around people and do things maybe they wan't like, they're
able to get out of bed, which is something that
they weren't able to do. But in terms of how
they're feeling, it sounds more like numbness. Then it does
actual like actually feeling better out of their depression, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
It does. I see this a lot with stimulant medications.
I see this with antidepressants. I see this with anti psychotics.
I see this with mood sabilizers.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
So interesting, So what is it about the depression drugs
that does that to them? What does the what are
the drugs that they're given, and how does it affect them?
Speaker 1 (43:42):
So for some people they may feel like this, you know,
like just regulated easily down right or easily up right,
and then what happens with the depression medicine It kind
of regulates your mood. So it's all subjective right. It's
like before I used to feel very deep things and
now I don't feel it as much.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Right due to the body.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Like, what does the drug actually due to the body
to allow for that to happen.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
It depends. So the SSRIs they prevent the reuptake of serotonin,
the SNRIs serotonin rpinephrin. The mood stabilizers like lithium have
other mechanisms. The medicines that work on GABBA have other mechanisms.
The ant psychotics work on dopamine, so it's hard to stimulum.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Makes sense, which is why you can switch medications depending
on how you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Understood, and there's no way to know exactly what's causing
that muted because no one can tell you that. We
haven't gotten there with the science. Just like when you
have doctors saying, oh, you can image the brain and
you can see depression, it's not true. Correlation is not
the same as causation. So you may see, you know,
patterns in the brain, but it's not equivalent to, oh,
this person has depression. Right, The science of your happiness
(44:48):
is complex. The brain of a woman going through postpartum
she may have all the symptoms of a clinical depression,
but her brain is going to be different than a
man going through depression. Right, So it's you can't simply
say oh, it's this right, and we're not there yet
with the science. And that's why it's not as direct
as one pill cure all because there's so many components
that think about. There's the biological, the psychological, and the social.
(45:12):
All of them play a role. But for me, that
gives hope, right because if you introduce a pill, if
the person needs it, then you can also have areas
to work on. You have the diet, you have the
social factors, you have the maybe they have to process trauma.
That should give people hope that there are different avenues
to get to exactoy, right, not just one.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yes, Actually that's true.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
If the like if this doesn't work, then at least
there's this. It gives you a plan ABCD and as
many as you possibly need to try and help yourself.
Why do you think people self sabotage? Because I find
that when you're in a sad state, or let's say
a depressive state, sometimes when you get used to being
in that state, it feels so much more comfortable that
(45:53):
you'll kind of stay in that state rather than trying
to trying to be in a state that you're not
used to, but it is better for you self. Sabage
is something that many people struggle with and they don't
realize that's what they're doing to themselves. Have you had
patients that do that and have you seen it linked
to anything.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
One of the symptoms of depression is guilt and shame
and hopelessness, and I don't think people know that that
it's actually a symptom and also as a symptom of trauma,
and I talk about the three risk factors for I
function depression, an adonia, trauma, and masochism. Masochism is a
term that was removed from the DSM five masochistic personal disorder.
(46:29):
The reason was taken out, I believe in the eighties
was because a lot of women were being labeled as
having masochistic personality disorders. So when people think of masacalism,
think of the sexual masochism. We're not talking about that.
We're talking about when people please to the point where
it actually hurts themselves. So think about the domestic violence.
You know survivor who people said insided violence on herself,
(46:52):
So that was kind of victim blaming, so that was
pulled out of the DSM five. But there are elements
of masochism that are still used today in terms of
like looking at patterns of behavior. So people who tend
to do for others and then deprive themselves of their
own needs, right, bending over backwards when it's very inconvenient
and even embarrassing for you, shaming for you, you know, self sabotage.
(47:15):
These are all behaviors that are masochistic, right, And I
see that a lot in people with high functioning depression.
If you think about the doctor who's working multiple shifts,
not eating, not sleeping, sometimes not even peeing, like surgeons
don't even pee, go through a ten hour surgery and
hold it. That's masochistic. You know, you're bending over backwards.
So these are things that I tend to see in
(47:36):
individuals and in certain cultures. You know, I grew up
in Trinidad, but there are cultures around the world where
women are tending to be like more people pleasing, Like
they're praised. If they do for others, they're praised to say. Yeah,
if they you know, like bend over backwards, they're considered good, right,
and then they're shamed. They're like, no, if they said boundaries,
(47:57):
they're shamed. Yes, So you know, it's important to reflect
on that type of self sabotage, which is really masochistic.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
For a lot of people, success and doing well creates
a desire to self sabotage. For people who are used
to that, it's like, as soon as they see success
or happiness in their life, there's a feeling to self
sabotage in relationships in their career. If they're used to
being addicts, then something goes well and then they kind
of reverse back. And so it's interesting cycle that people
(48:25):
get into when it comes to self sabotage.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Well, it stems from feeling unworthy. Right Again, trauma and
depression have that core belief that you're not worthy. Yeah,
so you don't do things that are in your best interest.
You go down a path where you end up in
suffering and it's a self fulfilling prophecy that you don't
deserve it. Well, if you deserved it, you wouldn't have
done that thing. You would have ended up better off, right, Yes,
(48:48):
but it's from that core belief that's not processed.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Yes. I loved how in your book you talked about
expanding your vocabulary. Yes, the idea of like when you're
feeling a certain way. And I've been thinking about this
a lot since I read the book where okay, am
I sad or am I this?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
This? This?
Speaker 3 (49:03):
And this?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Am I angry? Or am I frustrated? Am I jod
am I? Whatever it is?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Like, trying to really understand your emotions also comes with
trying to create a better vocabulary for it. Many people
are used to feeling sad, angry or happy, like do
we know any of the other terms in between? And
I think that helps to identify what you're actually feeling,
versus having an overarching name for it where you actually
can't identify what that is.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, I mean there's a psychological term called affect labeling.
When humans know what's going on, they're less anxious. So
think of twenty twenty. We didn't know what was going
to happen. The uncertainty was so frustrating and scary for us,
and many of us couldn't sleep when we don't know
how we feel the same thing happened. So it says
if you're in a dark room and something falls and
(49:49):
you're like swinging because you're like afraid you turn light
on and like you know, maybe a picture frame file,
you just put it back up right. The same with emotion.
So if you can pinpoint how you feel, you're less
anxious about it. You know what to do about that feeling.
You know, So, you know, feeling embarrassed versus frustrated. Yeah,
that's very different feelings. But for some who don't validate
(50:10):
how they feel, they may not know the difference. So
they're just like, well, why am I feeling this way?
And it's like, well, were you embarrassed? And it's like
I was embarrassed?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yeah, oh so true.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
I wonder why that embarrassed me, you know, I wonder
why I felt shame? And then you can go from there.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
That's a great analogy.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
Yeah, it's when you don't know something, you're so much
more scared of it, and it makes you so much
more fearful without identifying or labeling what it is.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
And impacts your behavior. You may shut down, you may avoid,
you know, you may get angry, you may react, But
knowing how you feel allows you to then take the
right course.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Is there anything from your research or your book that
if they weren't to read the book, you know, if
they're only listening to this podcast and they get this far.
What's one thing that you'd want someone to take away
with them in their life and put into practice.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
You are the only you that will ever exist ever, right,
I mean that always gives me chills. So understand the
science of your happiness. What's your path, what's your experience,
what's your biopsychosocial Understand you first, and then apply the tools.
Then you'll get further. Right, we all know that when
we're uncertain, when we don't know what we're dealing with,
(51:17):
we're lost. We're trying things that don't work, and then
we're getting frustrated, and then we try things that you
know can actually harm us. All right, So understand the
science of your happiness. It's the best gift that you
can give to yourselves.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yes, my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
This is wonderful.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Thank you for sharing your book with us, and for
anybody wanting to find you, where can they find you
and research all the wonderful work that you're doing.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Well, this was so much fun, and thank you for
having me. You can find me at doctor Judith Joseph
on all the socials at my website. The same doctor
Judith Joseph amazing.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
Thank you so much, and everyone go out and read
this book Time Functioning, overcome.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Your hidden depression and reclaim your joy. Thank you so much,
Thank you
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Sis,
That when we push down our pain and we don't
process it, we also push down our joy.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Today we have doctor Judith Joseph.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
She's a renowned psychiatrist and a leading expert in mental
health who has dedicated her life and career to helping
people overcome challenges and live fuller, more meaningful life.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Trauma and depression have that core belief that you're not worthy.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
People who were in the limelight and then suddenly committed
suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh, they were
just dancing and singing, what happened to that person? No,
I've heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had
no idea that person was suffering.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So when you have someone who's the rock, who's always
on the go, you know, there's a term called annaedonia
where you may be doing things that you used to love,
but now you're just going through the motions, but when
you go home, you're not really happy.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Trying to really understand your emotions also comes with trying
to create a better vocabulary for it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
If you can pinpoint how you feel you're less anxious
about it, you know what to do about that feeling.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm RADI w Kiah and on my podcast, A Really
Good cris we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing
a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and
allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find
comfort together.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Hi, everyone, welcome back.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
To this week's episode of A Really Good Cry. Today
we have doctor Judith Joseph. She's a renowned psychiatrist and
a leading expert in mental health who has dedicated her
life and career to helping people overcome challenges and live fuller,
more meaningful lives. Her new book, High Functioning, Overcome Your
Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy is so insightful and
(01:33):
such a practical guide for those who look fine on
the outside but aren't fine on the inside. Doctor Judith,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
For being here.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I'm very excited to go through this book with you.
I read it from top to bottom and I found
it so fascinating. So thank you for the work that
you're doing and I can't wait to dive into it.
I would love if you could just explain the premise
of the book and what led you to writing it.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Clinical depression, as most people know it is when people
have these symptoms such as low concentration, poor sleep, not
feeling hungry, or changes an appetite, changes in your mood
so like feeling sad, and also something called anhedonium, which
is a lack of interest and pleasure in things that
once really lit you up and brought you joy. However,
(02:19):
using the DSM five, which is the bible of psychiatry
that I use in my research and my private practice
every day, under that if you have these symptoms of
depression but you still are functioning or you're not in
like significant distress, you technically don't have clinical depression. But
what I was seeing after twenty twenty was a lot
of people coming in having these symptoms of depression but overfunctioning,
(02:41):
meaning they were like showing up. There were the rocks.
They were overperforming, and that was their way of dealing
with their depression. But there was no place for them
in this bible of psychiatry. So that led me to think, Okay,
I wonder how many people out there are experiencing this,
and there was a real need to study it. Most
of my colleagues were saying, oh, high functioning depression, that's
not real. You know, clinical regular depression that more important.
(03:02):
I thought, well, if we're only waiting for people to
break down to intervene, then we're just like missing the boat. Yeah,
why don't we prevent this from happening? And that led
me to conduct the first ever per reviewed study in
the world on high functioning depression that was published, and
I've had fascinating findings and I just wanted to share
that with the world.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I actually had somebody on that was sharing about high
functioning codependency recently, and I think people can really relate
to the idea of showing up even more and trying
to busy yourself when you are feeling certain feelings. And
when you think of depression, you know, my mind is
don't want to wake up in the morning, don't want
to see anyone. You know, the way that you imagine
(03:44):
someone who is depressive to be would be in the
stereotypical way. But you know, when I've heard about people
committing suicide or the shocks that you have of people,
You're like, wait, they didn't look depressed at all. They
were showing up to work, they were dancing, they were happy,
they were laughing. And so when I read the book,
I was like, I feel like there's probably more people
(04:05):
out there with high functioning depression then there are people
who are actually showing up in the traditional way that
you see depression.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Being Yeah, I think you're right. Think about the queue
in line. If you think about people breaking down and
then people lead having these symptoms but overfunctioning and showing up,
it makes sense that there would be more people in
the queue, right, And spot on with busying yourself. One
of the findings in my study was a high correlation
with trauma, And in my trauma research, when people want
(04:35):
to avoid processing pain, what do they do. They busy themselves.
They distract themselves. So the classic avoidance you see in
PTSD is not wanting to be around the situations, the people,
the places that trigger you. But another more atypical presentation
is busying yourself to avoid the things that you're trying
(04:56):
to not deal with. But the problem with that is
that when we pushed our pain and we don't process it,
we also push down our joy and that leads to
something called anne hardonia, which is a lack of joy
and pleasure and things that once lit us up.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
So you said that when we push down our pain,
we also push down our joy. Yes, how did the
two correlate? I'm intrigued.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
When you're avoiding feeling something, Yeah, you don't want to feel,
you avoid and you push you like on an unconscious
level or even conscious, you just don't want to feel
at all, so you busy yourself. But when you distract
yourself from feeling at.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
All, yes, then you construct stuff from all feeling.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, it's almost like you feel this numbness. And I
often hear people describe depression or even when I've been
in long periods where I felt sad for there's a
feeling of numbness that you end up going through because
you don't want to feel the pain. And then also
if you don't want to feel one for emotion, it
kind of locks you off from.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Everything else it does.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
What would you say is the difference for someone you
know trying to understand whether they're just sad or whether
they're depressed, Like, how do you differentiate between the two?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Sadness is an typical human experience, but depression may feel
very heavy, It may feel as if you can't get
out of the fog. And the clinical depression it has
specific symptoms, you know, the one that we treat in
the DSM FIB of the Bible psychiatry, all of these
this plethora of symptoms. To have clinical depression, you have
(06:19):
to meet criteria for at least two weeks or more
of all of these different symptoms, and they have to
lead you to have a lack of functioning or a
significant distress. What I'm finding with high functioning depression is
that you have people who have all these symptoms of depression,
but they're not breaking down. They're overfunctioning. So there's no
place for them in the diagnostic manual. There's no place
(06:42):
for these people who are showing up, who are the rocks?
And I thought, well, why are we waiting for them
to break down? Why don't we intervene before they break down?
And there's this renaissance in like physical health, with longevity science.
You hear a lot of people saying, you know, let's
catch heart disease before it happens, let's catch ossioporosis, let's
use HRT to prevent all these issues in women, you know,
(07:03):
in terms of looking at the perimenopause and menopause, but
there's nothing like that for mental health. And I want
to change that. I want us to intervene before people
break down, before their bodies give, before they develop unhealthy
ways of soothing with their pain like substances and overuse
of technology and so forth.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
What would you say are some self reflective questions that
people can ask themselves to really assess whether they, you know,
are going towards that or are actually in a depressive
or high functioning depressive state.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think it's important to number one validate. So in
my book, I talk about the five v's, and the
reason that I use five is because most people have
five fingers. Most of us do, and so if you
imagine that, you know, happiness and joy are built into
our DNA as humans, right, we all have dopamine in
our brains. We just forgot how to access joys. So
(07:56):
I like to use the hand because I always say,
using one of these five v's that are evidence based,
joy is within reach. You just have to relearn how
to access your joy. Because when you think about babies,
and I treat small children when they go around on
the floor and they're exploring the world as toddlers, they're
tasting things, they're feeling, they're laughing. They don't need much
(08:16):
to access joy. But as we get older, as we
go through trauma, as we get distracted, as things happen
to us, we lose touch of that ability to access
joy easily. So the five's help and the first is validation.
And what does that mean. It means acknowledging how you feel,
no matter if it's perceived positive or perceived negative emotion.
Accept it and it's important. And it sounds cheesy, but
(08:39):
if we don't acknowledge the pain, we can't acknowledge the joy.
And as humans, we need to know what's happening, and
we don't know how we feel when things are uncertain.
We're anxious, you know, we don't feel present, we feel frustrated,
we feel lost. So the first step is really validation, and.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Do you want to go through the other vias?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yes. The second is venting. So if you imagine, like
venting is a physics term where air is trapped and
then when you release that and the pressure goes down.
So when we express how we feel, then that allows that,
you know. That's why when you go to therapy sometimes
you just you feel good. But not everyone is a
verbal you know, expressor and I work with a lot
(09:19):
of neurodiversion clients and so not everyone feels that it's
easy to verbally express. So there are other ways. With
the artists that I work with, they dance, they sing,
they paint. Others like to write in journals to express.
Others cry. I know your podcast, you know the day
and that crying is good for you, But there's science
behind that. When you cry, you really let out these
(09:41):
hormones that and you feel better. That's why we have
tear dys not just to moisten our eyes so that
they stay functioning, but also so that we can release
you know, that angst at times, that pain, so venting
is very important. And then the third is the values.
And I often say that values are thing that are priceless, right,
(10:02):
not price tag and I like my fancy things, but
at the end of the day, when I'm on my
death bed, I'm not going to be like I want,
you know, right, I usually say proud of it, but yeah,
like you know, the things that bring you purpose and
meaning in life, like your family, your faith, the causes
that you believe in, things like nature. You know, these
(10:24):
are like priceless, so tap into that as much as
you daily.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, yeah, it was so interesting recently I was talking
to a friend and we were talking about the fact
that he feels like people don't value him, and they said,
you know what I reflected on, and I was like,
unless you have values, people don't know how to value you.
And you know, growing up, I had specific things that
I was really attached to. I was like, I love animals,
and that's something I really value. I know, I don't
(10:48):
want to drink alcohol, so I know that that's one
of my values. And so as I grew up, these
values actually ended up also forming how people saw me,
and they saw it when I valued something, it created
a sense of value in their mind of me. But
if you don't find the values that you have and
you don't know them, it's not only difficult for you
to value yourself, it actually reflects on how other people
(11:11):
also value you. And so it's really I really appreciated
that when I read that in your book, because I
was really thinking about it this week, and I was like, Yeah,
if you don't have values, then other people also don't
know how to value you because they don't see that
through you.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Well, I talk about with my own personal jone journey
I would grew up in a pastor's home a spiritual home, yes,
and we would often help the community. We'd go out
every and we used to complain about it as kids,
but now I'm so grateful. But every weekend we spent
so much time helping people in the community, be it
like the YNCA or like a retirement home. You know,
(11:44):
I went into medicine to help people, but then, you know,
the accolades got in the way, going to Ivy League institutions,
getting another degree, opening a lab, getting the right studies,
being competitive. And then after a while, I found myself
feeling very empty and lost interesting and I had to
tap back into well, what fed me, you know, spiritually,
and it was being connected to people. I'm one of
(12:04):
four siblings. I like to be in a team, even
my team and my lab. I was losing sight of
feeling connected because I was so like chasing the clout.
But then when I tapped into okay, what's really important,
you know, like feeling connected to my community, that grounded me.
And at the time, I was going through a divorce
and I realized, you know, I was changed. I was
chasing these things that I'm not going to be on
(12:26):
my deathbed thinking, oh, I wish I got a JD
on top of the MDMBA. Right, I'm going to be
like I wish I spent more time helping people and
being connected with people, right, And that just shifted my approach.
You know, I had to tap into values as well.
And I'm a psychiatrist, So if it doesn't come naturally
to me, imagine how many people out there just meet
that reminder. So I have all these tools in my
(12:46):
book just to help people find their way back to,
you know, the values based on what I've done in
my clinical practice over the years. Because a lot of
people forget their past because of trauma. They don't realize
that memories get buried. So people say, well, I don't
remember what it was like that, I don't remember what
I valued as a kid. And then you trace back
and you realize there was a trauma. Maybe it was
(13:07):
their own parents divorce, maybe there was a loss, maybe
something bad happened to them, you know, in school or
with their friend group, and they just don't remember what
it was like to be lit up by something that
brought them purpose. So there are all these tools in
that book to really help people find their values again.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It's so interesting isn't it where no matter what stage
of life you're in, Like, even for you, you know
the theory, it's like doctors, even if they're treating patients
for their health, if they've got heart disease or whatever,
it's like, theoretically, we know what's right, and so for you,
theoretically you knew what you should be doing or needed
to be happy. But there's one thing about theory and
then there's another part to its practice.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It just find it so fascinating that in.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Every stage of life, whether it's like celebrities wanting to
get more and more in life, whether it's you as
a doctor who's got all these incredible degrees and being
able to help people so much, or even if I
think of myself, it's like, okay, cool, I get to
help people with their health or through they're cooking. But
when you attached to the wrong things, it completely takes
away the benefits you think you're going to get. Like
(14:07):
when you attached to the wrong things, nothing feels valuable.
So yeah, I guess connecting to your values is such
a core principle to actually feel content and satisfied in life.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I love your use of the word attached because when
we think of attached, we think of attachment to others. Yes,
but you're absolutely right. You can attach to the wrong
value set and you think that you're doing the right
thing because everyone else told you, But you're not being
authentic to yourself, right, And so really examining what gives
(14:37):
I use these very primitive terms full and fed, oh yeah,
because some people don't know, you know, they've again pushed
around feelings. So I said, well, think about feeling full
and fed and whole and satisfied.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
It's going to ask what do you think are ways
if people don't feel like they understand their values, are
their questions they can ask themselves? Or how do you
get to the point of understanding what your values truly are?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I have a ton of tools that I use because
you know, you said that doctors don't follow their own advice.
Doctors are some of the most depressed people. You know,
there's high rates of suicide within residents, and doctors tend
to have poor health because they're so busy looking after
their patients that they don't look after themselves. And they're
the people that are at least likely to catch high
(15:20):
functioning depression because it's like looking in the mirror, right,
because they're overfunctioning, overperforming, they're not dealing with their own pain,
so they're like, oh, come back when you're broken, because
that's what they're used to. They identify as being healers,
not preventors. Right. But the ways that I ask people
to tap into their values is sometimes we'll go through
a trip down memory lane and we'll go to a
memory that was the last memory that they can retrieve
(15:44):
where they're actually feeling full and fed, and then we
try to figure out what happened at that time or
if they really can't access the memory because of trauma
and the brain pushed it down. I have other exercises
where I say, well, if you had one person that
you could have dinner with, anyone, you know, they may say, oh,
Jimi Hendrix, right, And it's like, oh, I wonder why
because the person is not an artist, But why why
(16:07):
Jimmy Hendrix? Well, because you know he was doing things
for a black man at that time that were so
cutting edge. And then you realize, oh, so you're into innovation,
so is that something that used to value? And then
the person goes, oh, yeah, you know, when I was younger,
I used to tinker a lot. I don't do that anymore.
So with that individual, I'll say, okay, well, let's slowly
(16:27):
expose you to tinkering again, experimenting again. Maybe the first
day you look up online robotics, right, and then the
second day you look up a class, and maybe the
next week you walk by the class you peek in,
or maybe you don't. Maybe the following week you look
at a video online, right, and you take baby steps
back to things that the person valued. Another example I
(16:48):
have is someone who you know was in a city
and she was feeling a hedonic and it turned out
that one of her core memories was built in a
time when her family was together, and she didn't remember.
She valued she was in a busy, big city, important position.
But then we realized that she worked, you know, with
her family, should go camping a lot, and she didn't
have access to nature. So we had to work all
(17:09):
way back into nature and she felt full and fed. Again.
It wasn't like she was cured, but at least the
little steps of it correct. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Wow, okay, so we've got validation values. There was on
venting validation venting values, and then there's two movies and right.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
There's vitals. I always say to my daughter every night,
you know, there's only one you. There will only ever
be one you. You are so special. And I tell
my patients this too, And it's such a game changer
for people who feel lost, right because many people are like,
why am I here? Well, think about the the chances
of the universe making it so that you exist, because
(17:48):
there will only ever be one you, and that sense
of awe is so important. So what do you have
to do since there's only one you? You got to take
care of your body. Yes, you have a body and brain.
You'll only get one you know. Yeah, we haven't figured
out the science. One day will, but right now we
have it. So take care of your body and brain.
And within the vital section. I have the traditional things
you know that a doctor will tell you, like sleep, movement,
(18:09):
you know, eating nutritious foods that feed your brain and body.
But also there are things that we need to take
care of our body. In terms of you know, technology,
We don't know the long term effects of technology exposure
on the adult brain. We know a lot about children,
so you know, set healthy boundaries with your work with technology.
And also the number one predictor of longevity is relationships,
(18:30):
So don't discount the quality of relationship relationships. A toxic
person will drain your life force, you know, So sunvitals.
There's a lot, right, I don't want people to get overwhelmed,
but just pick one or two. And then the fifth
is vision because when we're so busy accomplishing and checking
off the boxes, we're onto the next. Right, I'm guilty
(18:52):
of this as well. But celebrate your wins. So like
for you, for example, after this podcast, celebrating a wind
can be having a a step of tea or just
like observing nature and saying, wow, I did that. You
know that was hard, Like I interviewed guests and I
listened and I validated, and you know I had to
take it in and you know, I should really reward
myself for that, right, So celebrating the winds in today
(19:15):
because tomorrow is not promised. And then you know, planning
join the future because that keeps you moving forward instead
of getting stuck in the past.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, that's nice, planning joy in the future. That's so true.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
And I think people get so used to having such
monotonous days where they feel like every single day is
the same, but actually if you observe, so many different
things can happen in the day that you're not even
realizing because you are stuck in that robotic behavior. So
I imagine celebrating in different ways every single day, even
if it is you doing the same thing every day.
There's so much satisfaction and power that comes with consistency,
(19:49):
and that should also be rewarded. It's like, Wow, you
showed up to work seven days a day, or like
you showed up to work for the past twenty years
without taking awready, Like that's there's so many things to
be celebrated that people take f are granted in themselves,
And I think having that mood is so important because
otherwise you also don't appreciate the things that you're doing
in your own life or yourself in that way.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, I mean today it was a very busy day
for me. LA is hard to get around, it is,
But I know that I'm going to get a massage
when I get to the airport and I'm going to
treat myself. But it doesn't have to be monetary, right,
It could be as small as getting your kid to
school on time. Like that's a struggle for me too,
exactly right, So after I get my daughter to school
on time, you know, I'm like, wow, that was hard.
I'm going to sit in my living room and enjoy
(20:31):
my coffee and just savor it instead of you know,
jumping it and then leaving and going to work. Right,
So it could be the simple things. Yeah, it doesn't
have to be grand.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
So sure, what are some of the lesser known signs
of depression that peeping often overlook.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Anna Donia is a term that's been in the medical
literature since the eighteen hundred.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Well, yeah, it was the first time I actually heard
of it when I read your work.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
You know. What's surprising is that I went to a
therapy conference recently and I asked these tops I call
just in the world and therapists what anatonia was, and
they were like, I don't remember, you know, And I
was like, wow. So if therapists don't know to ask
you about it, then this is a symptom that's being overlooked.
And I think it's such a common experience to feel.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Like h or.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Checked out, not really feeling much because we are so
muted in terms of accessing joy these days. There's so
many distractions, right, We're constantly on the phone. We're getting
our dogmine hits. And what happens is that after a while,
your brain gets so accustomed to all these hits that
you don't access joy in more, you know, stimulating ways,
(21:40):
such as through connection with others, through being outside, you know,
through eating food and not looking at a screen, something
as simple as that. Some of us can't even go
to the bathroom without looking at a.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Screen, you know. Yes, I've been.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I can definitely put my hand up to that. I'm like,
see my phone outside, Why am I teaking it with me?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
All so gross? Right?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, but yeah, these are simple things like when you're
with your pet, if you're like on your phone your
pet is like not getting that full experience, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Having that full cycle of connection, like the exchange that
actually fuels both both people in that interaction.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, And I often say that, like anadonia is contagious
if you're if there's a leader, and we've all had
bosses that you know, they weren't happy and then we
all weren't happy as a result, right, the same way
anadonia is contagious, Joy is contagious. So if you can
you know, rejuvenate your organization with a bit of joy,
you'll see people coming in feeling more energized, not just
(22:40):
about work, but about seeing each other. And that's why
it's important. It's not it's a very sneaky symptom. You know.
I say that depression is like twin sisters. You know,
they're they're fraternal, they're not identical on the outside. So
one is, you know, weepy and crying and in bed,
and the other sister is just muted. Right, But who
gets the attention the one who's weepy, the one who's muted.
(23:02):
At least they're not in crisis. But that's a mistake
we're making in the healthcare industry, is that we're not
really addressing you know, things like anaidonia, which are markers
for other things like depression, trauma, substance use, schizophrenia. We
have to address the lack of joy, not just be
about like eradicating depression, but cultivating joy.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
It's so interesting because I guess, on one hand, you've
got the high functioning where they're allowed, they're they're present,
you notice them in you know, you notice them in
a room. They're very they're very noticeable. And then you've
got this other this other side, which is how do
you say and herdonia where actually they're just quiet and
in the background, and it just shows that there's such
(23:46):
a spectrum of depression or what symptoms you can have
of depression, where we have to be so much more
observant of the people around us, because you know, I've
heard so many circumstances where they're like, we had no
idea that person was suffering. You know, we had a
friend who passed away and had like drugs in their system.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
No one knew they were taking drugs.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
You know, people who were in the limelight and then
suddenly committed suicide and you were thinking, oh my gosh,
they were just dancing and singing. What happened to that person?
And so I guess a big part of it also,
I was just thinking of the question of how can
people who are maybe around someone who seems to be
presenting with depressive symptoms, how can they help that person, Like,
(24:27):
what can we do for that person?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Well, well, I'm sorry about your friend who passed. And
you know, I've heard so many stories like that where
people are wearing a mask of productivitys, especially in the
entertainment industry and the arts, where you can't show up
to an audition and be sad because you won't get
the gig right, So you're kind of stuck being happy,
forced happy, performing and no one knows you're struggling. And
(24:52):
you know what I would ask about. My goal is
to really make the word antiedonia known. So when you
have someone who's the rock, who's always on the go,
who doesn't seem to need your help, or who's masking
a lot, I would ask about ant hodonia, you know.
I would say, like, you know, there's a term called
antedonia where you may be doing things that you used
to love, but now you're just going through the motions.
(25:13):
You're going just to perform, but when you go home
you're not really happy, you know. I would ask them
about that, you know, and help them to get back
into their body and not judge them, because the other
thing about people with high functioning depression is that they
tend to people please, you know. I say there are
three risk factors trauma, unprocessed trauma, an hondonia right, not
(25:33):
feeling joy, and then something I called masochism, which used
to be in the Bible psychiatry they took it out.
Now it's known as people pleasing where you don't want
to disappoint others, You bend over backwards, you perform even
though you don't want to, right, So those are the hallmarks.
So these are people who don't want to tell you
that they're struggling. They feel guilty when they ask for help,
(25:54):
They feel ungrateful when they slow it down. Right, let
them know that you're there, no matter why, and then
don't wait for them to ask. You know, if you
see they're not eating, well, bring some food over. If
you see that they're isolating, just sit with them. You know,
if you see they're overperforming, you know they're constantly busy,
allow them to slow down, say hey, we could just chill.
(26:16):
We don't got to do this, and that. You know,
when people feel seen, they change. They feel as if
you know they don't have to do these things, they
don't have to mask, they can show their real selves
and just realize that this is likely coming from a
place of trauma. And trauma in itself makes people feel shame.
When people are traumatized and bad things have happened, they
(26:37):
internalize blame. It's our way of controlling the world. And
so my children, when something bad happens, they think they
have magical thinking, like well, maybe if I had done
my homework while Daddy would have stayed, or like you
know this, Grandpa wouldn't have died, right, And that magical
thinking carries into adulthood. For some with unprocessed trauma, you know,
(26:58):
they internalize that shame. Well, maybe if I were like this,
maybe if I did things differently, And then they don't
ask for helps, So don't wait for them. Be there
even when they don't look like they need help.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I actually recently watched Trevoranoa talking about this on stage.
I don't know where he was, but he was saying
that one of his favorite things to do with his
friends because he was noticing that, you know, maybe they
weren't sharing as much now. Every time he meets with
his friends, they ask each other like what are you
struggling with? And the fact is that question isn't asked enough,
like what do you need help with right now?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
How are you feeling right now?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Like even the simple question of actually sitting down and
I'm like, hey, how are you? But like how are
you feeling right now? What are you struggling with? And
I think those questions, you know, were so used to
having fun with friends and hanging out with them, and
kind of it can get quite surface level quite easily,
and you feel like you're close because you see each
other often.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
But are you asking the right questions? And so he said.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I can't remember exactly what he asked, but it was
essentially along the lines of let's all go around the
circle and say what we're struggling with, because not only
does that bring us close together, we also get to
understand how we can help one another, Like in this
group of people that we have as friends, are we
here to just have fun or are we here to
actually support one another? And I thought that was really
beautiful because I think it's so easy.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
To avoid those conversations.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And you know, you show up to your friend group
and a lot of the time, you know, with girls
and with guys, you want to show up as like
I'm doing well, my work's good, my family's good, my
girlfriend's good, like everything is good. And I think you
want to show up as being this version of yourself
if especially if people have perceived you in that way
for a long period. So when you and I think
that's even harder, like when people seem like they've got
(28:36):
it good and people have that perception almost breaking that
you feel like you're breaking their identity of you and
you're showing up as weak ye, And so you can
continue that for such a long period until there's a
breaking point. And so just asking questions to your friends,
like anybody listening, when was the last time you ask
some of your closest friends of what you're struggling with
(28:57):
right now?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
What can I help you with?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
And I think having that regular conversation topics is so
important and could probably save someone, Like I always think
about that one conversation, that one smile, that one interaction,
that one genuine connection, that one moment when you just
sat with someone for five minutes longer, you have no
idea how much it could be saving the other person.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
If you think about that person in your friend group,
maybe they can't do that in front of a group.
Maybe they have to do it privately. So for that individual,
it may be a walk, right, yeah, you know, come
with me on a walk and we don't have to
say anything, and let's observe nature and let's just like
let it flow organically like that. Sometimes people they don't
want to talk at all, So it could be going
(29:41):
to a gallery and looking at different art, right, everyone's
so different, and just showing up in the way that
that person can accept it so that they don't feel
that added pressure, because sometimes, you know, we do things
we want to help, but then we're like prying it
out of the person and they're like, well, I wish
I never said anything, you know, And that's where you know,
therapy is just so della. You know, when you go
to a therapist, you know, therapists don't pull it out
(30:04):
of you. They they're on this process with you. So
when you think about working with a friend who doesn't share,
try to figure out the way that they can best
communicate it that feels authentic to them so they don't
feel too exposed, but just be empathic.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
From all the research you've done on depression, what have
been some of the most shocking things that you found
out or things that you weren't expecting with depression?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You know, I always knew that women were twice as
likely to have depression, twice as likely, twice as likely
to have depression and anxiety compared to men. Wow, Yeah,
isn't that fascinating?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
It is fascinating because I also thought that women had
a higher emotional capacity and the capacity to receive pain,
to endure pain, to turn pain into goodness. Like in
my mind, I thought women are just so built for
resistance and adversity that I wasn't expecting it to.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Be that high. Yeah, I kind of thought it would
be other way around.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Honestly, I think you're right and that we can take
on more. We don't show as much, but with the
actual stats, we are more likely to have depression and
anxiety twice as likely. But men are more likely to
die by suicide, right, So that's the difference. The suicide
is what people take seriously, right, and they should. That
is a crisis. But the fact that many of us
(31:19):
are walking around pushing through pain. Right. This book is
for women specifically too, because they tend to push through
pain all their lives. Think about when you first got
your period, right, you were told everyone gets it. You know,
I have two sisters, the three of us. Everyone gets it,
so you should be fine even though you're like taking
a you know, algebra test and you're an excruciating cramps
and you're like, well, push through it, and you have
(31:41):
cheerlead to practice afterwards, you know, And then you think about,
like PMDD, which is the pre mental mood issues that
some women have. Right, they're told, well, you know, why
do you have to take off from work? Because every
woman gets their period? Right? And then postpartum depression, Well,
women give birth, you know, like my mom had five kids.
It's like, but did you know eighty percent of women
(32:02):
have the blues? Like what's up with that? You know?
And then perimenopause and menopause you know, are hormones. They
make us more vulnerable. And there's only one psychiatrist for
every thirty thousand people in this country in some parts.
So I thought, why are we keeping this science for ourselves?
Like why are we being greedy and stingy with it?
So in my book, I talk about things that I
learned as a medical student that we write up when
(32:24):
we see you, but we don't share it. So like
I want everyone to learn to understand the science of
their own happiness. So know the science of your happiness,
because the science of your happiness is not the same
as mine. Even though we're both women, right, we have
different experiences. We all have a bio psychosocial it's a
Venn diagram, but our experiences within the biopsychosocial are different.
(32:45):
So there's an exercise in the book where you can actually,
you know, circle your biopsychosocial and look at your biological
risk factors. So, as women, we go through changes once
a month.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right, yeah, too often.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And we also may have issues like I have low
thyroid puts me at risk for depression anxiety. You know,
you may have medical issues that put you at risk,
or your family history. And then psychologically you have different
trauma than I do, maybe different attachment styles, who knows,
maybe similar you know, different resiliency factors, but within that
understand it personally, I came to this country when I
(33:19):
was very small, we had very little, so that scarcity
trauma drives a lot of my high functioning depression. Right.
And then socially, you know, I live in New York,
you live in California. We have different surroundings, we have
different jobs. I'm a single mom, I have a busy business.
There are a lot of stressors. But then think about
things in your social life, like your relationships. You know
(33:40):
your work environment, how much you're drinking, or you know
the foods that you eat. We all have our own
biopsychosocial and so I recently gave a talk to like
three hundred women and it had them draw their biopsychosocials
and they were all so different. Right, we're all humans, right,
we all have the DNA to have joy, but our
joy is going to be different and our experiences. So
(34:01):
understand the science of your own happiness and then you
can use the tools. That's why so many people they
read a book, they watch something on you know, social media,
and they're like, well, I tried that. It didn't work
for me, But did you understand the science of your happiness?
Because how are you using these tools when you don't
even understand yourself?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Right?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
So I wanted to democratize that. And yes, one of
the things that I found was that women tend to
push through pain, and in my research caregivers, they're the
ones that are feeling overwhelmed, right, Yeah, I imagine because
they can't stop. You know, ask any mom who's busy,
who has a working and they don't have a choice.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
They don't choice that they're making. Yeah, they have to
show up.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So even though they want to shut down, they can't.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
How can someone create moments of joy when they feel
overwhelmed by sadness? Like well, you know you've been talking
about joy so much and the science of your own joy.
What are some of the things that you found have
been known to bring joy to people? Like without film,
if you do this, this can probably bring you some
joy in your life.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Well, I go back to the five v's, right, because
you I don't tell people to do all five at once,
because people will get overwhelmed, deflated and feel like they
you know that they give up. It's it's similar when
you see these like these skin routines and you're like,
I cannot do all that.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, and also my skin does not look like that
when but when I do that routine.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
I saw a video of a woman who was like
wrapped from my head to toe and I'm like, uh,
but so like do one or two a day if possible,
tappen too one or two of the v's. It's so
interesting because I have this research lab that's very scientific,
and then I have the happiness lab that's really my
passion projects, right, and so when people come to the
happiness lab, they're like, I just want to be happy.
(35:37):
When people come to the research lab, we're trying to
eradicate depression. So there's this like disconnect between the real
world and research. So it's a reframe. Right. When I
ask patients to come to therapy, you know what is
happiness for you? They it's all a list of things.
It's ideas, right like when I get that you know
job that I want, that partner at that house, you
(35:57):
know the stuff, this idea of happiness. Whereas when you
think of happiness and the research, you don't find that
word happy. You find points that make up pleasure. Right,
So like when you are hungry, did you savor your food?
When you were lonely? Did you feel connected to someone
when you were with people? Did you enjoy the interactions
(36:18):
when you got dressed for the day, did you feel
pride in the way that you look? Right? So, joy
is this plethora of sensations that you experience, whereas happiness
is this idea that you're trying to achieve. But the
science shows that when you get the thing that makes
you happy, you're still not happy, You're still chasing. So
it's a reframe. Try to get as many points of
(36:39):
joy in a day. So think about it as Okay,
today I got two points, Tomorrow maybe I'll get three points,
and maybe the next day I'll get zero points, but
I can always make it up the next day, right,
Versus I just want to be happy, because if you
are pushing to become happy, you're likely not going to
get happy when you get that thing that you think
will make you happy. Right, But try to increase your
points of joy every day. So when you're having your tea,
(37:02):
you're sipping your tea, you're tasting the herbs, you're feeling,
you go down, you're feeling relaxed, versus I'm in my friend,
my phone shopping while having my tea. You know, try
to be present in these physiological things that makes being
human human.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah, I'm about to say it sounds so much like
the underlying thing you're saying is presence. Like, create more
moments of presence, because if you're not present, you don't
recognize the moments of joy. You're not actually present for them.
You're not able to identify that this is a point
in time where I can feel the joy. Because you're
constantly torn in different directions you are.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Ask, what is something people don't realize contribute to their
mood and depression in a negative way? Like one thing
I loved in your book was the idea of like
seeing no evil, hearing no humans, speaking no evil.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
And I think people.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Don't realize how much of a difference those things make,
Like what you're allowing into your senses.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
We are always absorbing. And there was this all thought
that Okay, once you're twenty five, your brain's fully developed,
Off you.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Go do that.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Well, I mean, it's largely true that your brain forms
by the time you're twenty five, But there's something called
neuroplasticity where you're constantly changing. That's why the brain of
an eighty year old is not the same as a
twenty five year old, right, And so because you're constantly
changing based on you're surrounding, you need to surround yourself
with things that feed you. So if you're around people
(38:27):
who are negative, who are talking about others, you know,
gossip can be fun, but it can also get really dirty.
You know, if you're constantly seeing things that are not
pleasing to you, that aren't feeding you, right you're in
front of a screen, or you're in a place with
no light, or things that are not beautiful, you know,
then you're not getting that stimulation. If you're saying things
(38:49):
that are negative you're speaking into existence these things that
actually do impact you, then that's all changing the way
that you think. So true, and there's some urging research
that shows that when you're around people who are positive
and motivated, you become that way, just like when you're
around people who are draining and toxic, you become that way.
So don't discount the value the quality of your relationships
(39:13):
because the longevity science is showing that's a number one predictor. Right,
That's why loneliness is as dangerous as smoking cigarettes. Yeah,
so think about who you're around all day long. Really
think about the top three people, and if there are
people who are dragging you down, you have to think
about what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Yeah, I feel like we absorb so much more than
we think. You know, it's not just the food that
you're eating. Every single thing that you allow into your
senses is being absorbed into you and becoming you. And
so the words, the things that you're watching, the things
that you're smelling, the things that you're seeing, every single
thing is becoming you. So if there's an imbalance of
the things that are nourishing you versus the things that
(39:52):
are draining or taking from you, you're constantly going to
see that tip in the way that you're acting, feeling,
and living.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, and when you're too busy to really take stock
of your relationships. There are many people who are in
relation romantic relationships that are toxic, but they're like, well,
you know, like I'll just work on you know, something else.
So maybe they can't get out of it. It's not
so easy financial reasons. Maybe it's not safe. But this
all impacts you, right, and so everyone has their own
(40:20):
unique challenges. But when you're too busy to reflect, then
you can go a decade and be with the wrong person, right,
the wrong friend, you know, the wrong job. So it's
important to slow down when you're a human being instead
of a human doing you see more?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, you do?
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Because life, we only get one life.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Right, Yeah, so slow down present.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yes, I wanted to actually move on too depression medications
because you know, I actually do have a few friends
that have been put on medication for it, and I
would love to get your view on I would love
to get your view on it. I always have like
two I always battle between the thoughts of it. Obviously
I'm not an expat or, but I feel like a
lot of people are put onto depression medications so far
(41:00):
us and I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Well, you know, in some parts of America there's only
one psychiatrist for thirty thousand people. Think about that. If
I have thirty patients, I'm overwhelmed, you know. I stop
taking private patients in twenty nineteen, you know, and I'm
in a place I'm in New York where like there
are so many psychiatrists compared to everywhere else. So I
think what's happening is people don't have access to therapists,
(41:24):
you know, and people are struggling, you know, Like there's
also a stigma with regards to mental health because you know,
like you would never say to someone you know, oh
so you have high blood pressure, stop taking it, you know,
like you know, maybe you should just do this. In
that Not everyone has access to a gym. Not everyone
can't has the self control to eat properly. Some people
have genetic hypertension, right, the same with depression. Right. Not
(41:47):
everyone has access to a therapist when you finally do
get a therapist, and you have to afford one, when
you can't finally can't afford when they have to make
time for one, and when you finally make time for one,
then you have to practice it every day. Like that's
hard for some people they don't have the access, and
for some there's genetic you know, depression. It runs in
our family. So I think we have to remember that
the brain is a part of the body, you know,
(42:09):
and there's the biopsychosocial Right. The world is not the
way it was years ago. There's a lot more to
weigh on our systems, right, So you know, when people
get the support of medication, I think everyone should know
that it's not a cure all or else we'd all
be on an antipressant. There would be zero depression in
the world. Right. The depression medicines may help with sleep,
(42:29):
they may help people to finally feel regulated so they
can get through a day. They may perk up someone's
appetite who's not hungry. Right, You're treating a lot of
symptoms that are supporting someone and you're not necessarily curing it.
That's where the interventions, the behavioral things, the practices, they
make a difference.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
You know, some of my friends that have been on it,
they get get been on depressing depression medication. There's this
feeling of numbness that they always describe where like And
it's interesting because it sounded a little bit like anagonia. Yes,
on this medication for depression, but they're still feeling. Yes,
they get through their day, they're able to like function better,
They're able to get to work, they're able to be
(43:10):
around people and do things maybe they wan't like, they're
able to get out of bed, which is something that
they weren't able to do. But in terms of how
they're feeling, it sounds more like numbness. Then it does
actual like actually feeling better out of their depression, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
It does. I see this a lot with stimulant medications.
I see this with antidepressants. I see this with anti psychotics.
I see this with mood sabilizers.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
So interesting, So what is it about the depression drugs
that does that to them? What does the what are
the drugs that they're given, and how does it affect them?
Speaker 1 (43:42):
So for some people they may feel like this, you know,
like just regulated easily down right or easily up right,
and then what happens with the depression medicine It kind
of regulates your mood. So it's all subjective right. It's
like before I used to feel very deep things and
now I don't feel it as much.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Right due to the body.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Like, what does the drug actually due to the body
to allow for that to happen.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
It depends. So the SSRIs they prevent the reuptake of serotonin,
the SNRIs serotonin rpinephrin. The mood stabilizers like lithium have
other mechanisms. The medicines that work on GABBA have other mechanisms.
The ant psychotics work on dopamine, so it's hard to stimulum.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Makes sense, which is why you can switch medications depending
on how you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Understood, and there's no way to know exactly what's causing
that muted because no one can tell you that. We
haven't gotten there with the science. Just like when you
have doctors saying, oh, you can image the brain and
you can see depression, it's not true. Correlation is not
the same as causation. So you may see, you know,
patterns in the brain, but it's not equivalent to, oh,
this person has depression. Right, The science of your happiness
(44:48):
is complex. The brain of a woman going through postpartum
she may have all the symptoms of a clinical depression,
but her brain is going to be different than a
man going through depression. Right, So it's you can't simply
say oh, it's this right, and we're not there yet
with the science. And that's why it's not as direct
as one pill cure all because there's so many components
that think about. There's the biological, the psychological, and the social.
(45:12):
All of them play a role. But for me, that
gives hope, right because if you introduce a pill, if
the person needs it, then you can also have areas
to work on. You have the diet, you have the
social factors, you have the maybe they have to process trauma.
That should give people hope that there are different avenues
to get to exactoy, right, not just one.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yes, Actually that's true.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
If the like if this doesn't work, then at least
there's this. It gives you a plan ABCD and as
many as you possibly need to try and help yourself.
Why do you think people self sabotage? Because I find
that when you're in a sad state, or let's say
a depressive state, sometimes when you get used to being
in that state, it feels so much more comfortable that
(45:53):
you'll kind of stay in that state rather than trying
to trying to be in a state that you're not
used to, but it is better for you self. Sabage
is something that many people struggle with and they don't
realize that's what they're doing to themselves. Have you had
patients that do that and have you seen it linked
to anything.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
One of the symptoms of depression is guilt and shame
and hopelessness, and I don't think people know that that
it's actually a symptom and also as a symptom of trauma,
and I talk about the three risk factors for I
function depression, an adonia, trauma, and masochism. Masochism is a
term that was removed from the DSM five masochistic personal disorder.
(46:29):
The reason was taken out, I believe in the eighties
was because a lot of women were being labeled as
having masochistic personality disorders. So when people think of masacalism,
think of the sexual masochism. We're not talking about that.
We're talking about when people please to the point where
it actually hurts themselves. So think about the domestic violence.
You know survivor who people said insided violence on herself,
(46:52):
So that was kind of victim blaming, so that was
pulled out of the DSM five. But there are elements
of masochism that are still used today in terms of
like looking at patterns of behavior. So people who tend
to do for others and then deprive themselves of their
own needs, right, bending over backwards when it's very inconvenient
and even embarrassing for you, shaming for you, you know, self sabotage.
(47:15):
These are all behaviors that are masochistic, right, And I
see that a lot in people with high functioning depression.
If you think about the doctor who's working multiple shifts,
not eating, not sleeping, sometimes not even peeing, like surgeons
don't even pee, go through a ten hour surgery and
hold it. That's masochistic. You know, you're bending over backwards.
So these are things that I tend to see in
(47:36):
individuals and in certain cultures. You know, I grew up
in Trinidad, but there are cultures around the world where
women are tending to be like more people pleasing, Like
they're praised. If they do for others, they're praised to say. Yeah,
if they you know, like bend over backwards, they're considered good, right,
and then they're shamed. They're like, no, if they said boundaries,
(47:57):
they're shamed. Yes, So you know, it's important to reflect
on that type of self sabotage, which is really masochistic.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
For a lot of people, success and doing well creates
a desire to self sabotage. For people who are used
to that, it's like, as soon as they see success
or happiness in their life, there's a feeling to self
sabotage in relationships in their career. If they're used to
being addicts, then something goes well and then they kind
of reverse back. And so it's interesting cycle that people
(48:25):
get into when it comes to self sabotage.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Well, it stems from feeling unworthy. Right Again, trauma and
depression have that core belief that you're not worthy. Yeah,
so you don't do things that are in your best interest.
You go down a path where you end up in
suffering and it's a self fulfilling prophecy that you don't
deserve it. Well, if you deserved it, you wouldn't have
done that thing. You would have ended up better off, right, Yes,
(48:48):
but it's from that core belief that's not processed.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Yes. I loved how in your book you talked about
expanding your vocabulary. Yes, the idea of like when you're
feeling a certain way. And I've been thinking about this
a lot since I read the book where okay, am
I sad or am I this?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
This? This?
Speaker 3 (49:03):
And this?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Am I angry? Or am I frustrated? Am I jod
am I? Whatever it is?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Like, trying to really understand your emotions also comes with
trying to create a better vocabulary for it. Many people
are used to feeling sad, angry or happy, like do
we know any of the other terms in between? And
I think that helps to identify what you're actually feeling,
versus having an overarching name for it where you actually
can't identify what that is.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, I mean there's a psychological term called affect labeling.
When humans know what's going on, they're less anxious. So
think of twenty twenty. We didn't know what was going
to happen. The uncertainty was so frustrating and scary for us,
and many of us couldn't sleep when we don't know
how we feel the same thing happened. So it says
if you're in a dark room and something falls and
(49:49):
you're like swinging because you're like afraid you turn light
on and like you know, maybe a picture frame file,
you just put it back up right. The same with emotion.
So if you can pinpoint how you feel, you're less
anxious about it. You know what to do about that feeling.
You know, So, you know, feeling embarrassed versus frustrated. Yeah,
that's very different feelings. But for some who don't validate
(50:10):
how they feel, they may not know the difference. So
they're just like, well, why am I feeling this way?
And it's like, well, were you embarrassed? And it's like
I was embarrassed?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yeah, oh so true.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
I wonder why that embarrassed me, you know, I wonder
why I felt shame? And then you can go from there.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
That's a great analogy.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
Yeah, it's when you don't know something, you're so much
more scared of it, and it makes you so much
more fearful without identifying or labeling what it is.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
And impacts your behavior. You may shut down, you may avoid,
you know, you may get angry, you may react, But
knowing how you feel allows you to then take the
right course.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Is there anything from your research or your book that
if they weren't to read the book, you know, if
they're only listening to this podcast and they get this far.
What's one thing that you'd want someone to take away
with them in their life and put into practice.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
You are the only you that will ever exist ever, right,
I mean that always gives me chills. So understand the
science of your happiness. What's your path, what's your experience,
what's your biopsychosocial Understand you first, and then apply the tools.
Then you'll get further. Right, we all know that when
we're uncertain, when we don't know what we're dealing with,
(51:17):
we're lost. We're trying things that don't work, and then
we're getting frustrated, and then we try things that you
know can actually harm us. All right, So understand the
science of your happiness. It's the best gift that you
can give to yourselves.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yes, my god, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
This is wonderful.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Thank you for sharing your book with us, and for
anybody wanting to find you, where can they find you
and research all the wonderful work that you're doing.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Well, this was so much fun, and thank you for
having me. You can find me at doctor Judith Joseph
on all the socials at my website. The same doctor
Judith Joseph amazing.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
Thank you so much, and everyone go out and read
this book Time Functioning, overcome.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Your hidden depression and reclaim your joy. Thank you so much,
Thank you
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Sis,
Host
Radhi Devlukia
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