February 18, 2020 • 30 mins
For many of us, travel is about vacations and special occasions. For 71 million refugees and displaced people around the world, travel is about survival. Susan McPherson, a board member for USA for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, shares what she’s witnessed in such global hotspots as the border of Venezuela and Colombia and the camps in Jordan — and gives us reasons for hope and strategies to help. Find more info about this episode at Fathomaway.com.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Open your hearts. I mean, I think we we sometimes
we get so into our own lives that we forget
that this world is a massive place with all sorts
of different people, but they're just like us. Welcome to
A Way to Go, a production of I Heart Radio
and Fathom. I'm jeral and Gerba and I'm Pavio Rosatti.
(00:26):
So far on our podcast, we've been talking about travel
the way many people think about it as a treat,
a special occasion or activity to share with friends and
loved ones, something you spend weeks or months or years
to plan and save up for an adventure, something that
absolutely look forward to and get excited about and share
for years to come. But for many people around the world,
leaving home and traveling is not a voluntary choice nor
(00:48):
a happy occasion. It's a question of safety and security
and sometimes their only option for survival. I'm talking about
the current refugee crisis around the world. There are some
seven d point eight million people worldwide who are displaced,
the highest number ever recorded. Forty one million of those
are internally displaced, twenty six million are refugees, the three
(01:11):
point five are seeking asylum. We've all read the news
stories about how this crisis is impacting countries around the
world in different ways, and the political implications for leaders
and for citizens. Many want to open their borders, but
lately many more want to close them. What can we
do about this? Our guest today has some answers and
is actively working on solutions. Susan McPherson, the founder of
(01:33):
McPherson's Strategies, is a corporate social responsibility expert who works
at the intersection of brands and social good Her clients
include the Tiffany and Co. Foundation, Salesforce, Dell, and Nerol.
But what we want to talk to her about today
is her work as a board member for USA for
U n h c R, the United Nations High Commission
(01:53):
for Refugees, the global organization dedicated to saving lives, protecting rights,
and building a better future for refugees, forcibly displaced communities
and stateless people. Susan, welcome, Thank you so much for
being here. I am so excited. Um I enjoy any
kind of interaction I have with you. Jarelyn and Eu Pavila,
(02:14):
thank you so much. We should mention that since its formation,
a boy the UN Assembly in n U n h
c R has helped an estimated fifty million people restart
their lives and has twice received the Nobel Peace Prize.
So how did you get involved in all of this?
I was recruited to join the Board of USA for
(02:34):
U n HCR, which of course is the advocacy and
philanthropic arm of U n h c R in the
United States. A little over five years ago, when I'll
be honest with you, the American public was not very
much in the know on what refugees were, uh, the
difference between a refugee and an immigrant and a migrant.
(02:56):
And I have to say, I don't know how much
more say educated they are, but clearly because there has
been a massive influx of refugee crisis is around the world,
we see it much more in the news. And you know,
you would have had to been under a rock if
you didn't see that Syrian boy who was faced down,
uh three four years ago, who had drowned while his
(03:18):
family was trying to seek asylum in marrowing photo hiring photograph.
But I joined the board, and I had to do
a deep learning process myself because I did not know,
you know, as much certainly as I do today. And
I realized It is a hugely complex issue and with
many different opinions, But the one thing I think we
(03:40):
can all agree on it's not going away anytime soon. No.
In fact, it's at an all time high and getting worse.
Let's step back one second and go back to what
you were saying earlier. Can you break down for us,
since I'm sure a lot of people are learning about
this for the first time, what is the difference between
an immigrant, a refugee, and somebody seeking asylum? Or well,
(04:00):
immigrants are are coming to this country, they or to
any country and they apply, but they're not seeking They're
not coming to a country out of fear of losing
their life. Okay. A refugee is someone who if that
person or is that the person is making the case
that if that person stays in his or her own homeland,
(04:22):
she or he will be in extreme danger. And that
is how the u N set it up, because they
wanted to make sure if people are fleeing that if
they end up in another country, they have the right
to actually pursue asylum if they can prove, which can
be sometimes challenging, that they are indeed in danger. And
(04:43):
these reasons for danger can be sexual harassment, sexual discrimination,
sexual violence, violence, it can be they're displaced people, and
it's racism, it's ethnic cleansing, it's all, it's it's all
of these horrific xenophobia, even within a country right absolutely.
Now what is fascinating but also terrifying is with the
(05:05):
onset of climate change. There there is discussions in the
u n on how do we deal with climate refugees
because of disasters and hurricanes and tsunamis and the resulting
famine and hunger situations that will take place. And if
you fast forward to the future when there are is
lack of water. I mean, we all know we can
(05:27):
go a few days without food, but we cannot live
without water. And what will people be doing to seek
water across borders? I know that in terms of the
u n H c rs were the majority. Some of
the refugees are coming from Syria, Afghanistan and South Sudan. Yes, However,
(05:49):
Venezuela numbers are growing because of the crisis in Venezuela
and me and mar where there has been genocide. You
have massive, massive numbers of real Hingo, which are the
Muslim refugees crossing the borders into Bangladesh, which is causing
another crisis. As we think about these numbers are and
the causes are the majority of the people who are
(06:13):
displaced displaced for political reasons. It is I mean Syria,
it's the war. You could say that's political. I would
say that that's for instance, it's that's not an environmental crisis.
Those are not fleeing because of sexual violence. Those are
basically under the general category well is it's safe to
say that they're generally under the category of political violence.
(06:33):
Political violence. However, we also know that that sexual violence
is a tool of war and it has been for
thousands of years, and women in you know, in intrinsically
are the ones who suffer. And you see many children,
massive percentages of refugees are our children, and many of
them are fleeing without without parents, and we're seeing it
(06:55):
at our southern border right when people are crossing the
border and looking for asylum. Are most people thinking we're
going to go home at some point or what's the reality?
They're great question, Genrelyn, and I have to say that
every refugee I have ever met over the years, and
every piece of documentation that I've read, that is the
(07:17):
hope no one wants to flee their home. Nobody, you know,
think about your home and how comfortable it is, and
sometimes yes it maybe you need to get you get
it cleaned, or you need to straighten up, but it's
still your home and where you feel safe. And so
that is the dream, the harsh reality. I was in Kakuma,
which is a two hundred thousand persons twood refugee camp
(07:41):
in Kenya. There have been people there for twenty five years.
There's probably there's people born and they getting married there
and they start their lives there, and there's an entire
industry within the camp. But many of those are from
South Sudan, from the Congo, from the d r C,
and those countries are still at war. So it is
very very you know, the thought or the hope in
(08:05):
the immediate future they're being able to go home. It's
not a it's not a pretty thought. Part of the
work that you do. I know, because we've talked about
this is you've you go on trips, yes, and you've
been on four trips so far, and we want to
get into all of them. But you most recently got
back from the border of Colombia and Venezuela. The reason
I take these trips is if I don't have intimate
(08:27):
experiences meeting these people, learning what their struggle is personally,
it's very difficult for me to advocate on behalf of them.
And I find it also makes me not only a
better board member, but a better citizen in the United States.
So I can speak with some conviction about this this disaster.
Can you tell us what you saw? Certainly we spent
(08:49):
time in Bogota, Cucuta, and Medine and Cucuta is right
at the border. It's one of the first spots that
a or for locations that Venezuelan's would arrive in on
their way to try to seek refuge in in Colombia.
And we actually were on the bridge watching people. Now,
(09:12):
a vast majority of the people we saw crossing the
bridge would go back to Venezuela leader that day they
came across. Because currently in Venezuela right now, there is
absolutely no supplies that one needs on a day to
day basis. We're talking basics like milk, flour, everything, toilet paper,
infant formula, you know the things that especially young people
(09:34):
are you know, young adults need for their families what
I was thinking today as I was coming here is
in my recollection, I had never seen so many young babies.
(09:57):
I met two women, one of which was aged twenty,
the other was aged nineteen. Both had walked fifteen and
sixteen hours, respectfully, literally within four days after giving birth.
First of all, I don't have children, and then I've
never seen a child under three months old, So to
see a baby that was four or five days old
(10:19):
was one like it was like, oh my god, it's moving.
I mean, I hate to sound so ridiculous, but they
are so unbelievably tiny and helpless. And to see then
a woman who could have been my daughter carrying this,
this this real being, of course with like another child
at her hand, it was probably one of the most
heart wrenching moments I've ever seen. And what was she
(10:40):
crossing for? Was she crossing to get supplies and in
formula to feed the baby? Absolutely, and then she'd be
then going back and not she was actually coming over
to seek asylum. What kind of numbers are we talking about?
Ebbs and flows? And I have to say, in the
last several months, Columbia has gotten tighter on their borders.
There were estimates of about forty thousand crossing a day,
(11:00):
but about five thousand a day are staying, and they
would either put forth the idea to potentially seek asylum
in Columbia or pass through to try to get to
Peru or to Ecuador. What many don't know before they
make the crossing is if they are going on to
bo Guita or Metahin, they have to literally it's not
(11:21):
just an easy walk, right, They have to go up
nine thousand feet. Colombia is a very mountainous country. Venezuela
is in the most part of very tropical country, so
they are not prepared for the winter and the horrific,
you know, extremes. And I think just going back to
these two young women with their infants, you know, they're
they're beautiful, beautiful children who have children. But you think
(11:45):
about trafficking and sexual violence that can be happening on
the route, and that also was filling me with everyone
so vulnerable and what I'm picturing, and I'm not sure
if this is correct, but I'm I'm kind of picturing
a parade of people. Does it seemed like everyone traveling
together on one route or is everything sparse? And when
people are going up to Medine and Bogata. Do they
(12:09):
try to escape or kind of hide within the masses
or how does that they're safer in numbers? And many
families travel together and relatives of families, and they typically
will go to a city where they have a connection.
I mean that happens all over the world. And they
there are stations along the way that various aid organizations
(12:29):
have have provided where they will help, you know, fill
them with food or provide Facebook where they can reach
out to various you know, folks. But it is literally
very dangerous. I met a grandmother in Metaheen who had
left with her two grandsons because her daughter had left
the two children and went off to Brazil and making
(12:52):
her own as well. And yes, I mean I don't
know the intimacy, yes, but she so the grandmother obviously
felt a very deep responsibility to take care of both
the children. One was one year old and one was five,
and the five year old had an ear issue that
he couldn't he couldn't get medical attention in Venezuela, and
(13:12):
they walked and hitchhiked and walked, and she was sexually
violated when one of the trucks that carried her, you know,
while she had her two grandsons. And I mean these
are things like, yeah, it's car funny, and I don't
want your your listeners to to you know, get depressed.
I mean, there are things that can be doing, we
can be doing, and I think it's also it's it's
(13:34):
also opening up our hearts, right and sure, you know
we The one thing about the United States is almost
all of us came here, not because things were honky
dory where we left. My grandparents would have all been
dead if they stayed in Russia. Um. And you know
that the wars caused people to leave and seek and seek.
(13:55):
Not it's not a better job. Okay, These people weren't
running for a better job. They were literally running the
young women. You asked, what were they seeking? The women
would didn't have enough proper health to create breast milk,
so they needed to go find formula. Right, And and
it's an animal instinct, right, you you are going to
do what you can to not only stay alive, but
(14:16):
keep your child alive. We've heard that there are countries
and agencies that are helping in some ways by providing
healthcare or providing insurances, and sometimes it's even surprising the
countries that you hear about that are providing some of
the support. What are some of the programs that you've
seen working, and you know, what are some things that
you think we could be doing more else? Sure, well
(14:38):
that's a very large question, So I take it. Take
I'll take little bites of it. Gerlyn, first of all,
and I think it's important for your listeners to understand
you n hcr's role is the protection of these people, okay,
and to ensure they are given a fair chance of asylum.
And you n HCR works at the bequest of the
president or leader of the particular country that is receiving
(14:59):
the influx. So um. So in this case, did Columbia
call un h I mean? And the good thing is
is because UNHCR has worked for many years in Colombia,
because of the drug cartels and paramilitary activities that have
been happening, there were already all kinds of refugee struggles
that historically that used to go the other way other
out of Columbia. Now people are coming into exactly and
(15:21):
many are returning from Venezuela who were born in Colombia. Um.
And you know this is happening in many parts of
Latin America. I mean it's a chorous continent that's new.
And hcr's primary role where you know, they operate camps
where they work at borders. They bring in and partner
with other AID organizations and of course other U N partners.
So you would have UN World Food Program providing food.
(15:44):
In Colombia, there were several Catholic organizations providing sustenance for
these people. Someone else is bringing doctors, um you know,
Save the Children is their UNI SETH Doctors without Borders.
I mean it World vision and it just depends where
in the world, and you know the contracts that are created,
but it takes a village, okay. And in other When
(16:07):
I was in Kakuma in Kenya and when I was
in Ashrog in Jordan's, those were specific camps where within
the camps you had AID organizations helping, you know, very
playing their various roles and doing exceptional jobs at helping.
So you know, the first way people can always help
is supporting these organizations through either you know, financial support
(16:31):
or volunteer or raising money on you know, running a
race for Save the Children or what have you. There's
numerous ways. But the other thing and I think it's
really important for thinking to consider our vote is very
important when we go next November and every November. Your
vote can mean so much to opening our borders again,
(16:54):
but also sending a signal to the leaders in our
country and other leaders that these people are are tremendously
valuable individuals and refugees are the most resilient humans. Think
what the strength it takes to do, you know, to
go on these journeys. I met a woman in Kakuma
who had was eight months pregnant, caring two little children,
(17:17):
who walked from South Sudan to Kenya, Okay barefoot. Now
that takes the whole, you know. Like when I would
tell my pregnant friends, they were like, I'm not complaining anymore.
What you're saying is amazing. That the things that humans
can do to each other is horrifying, But what you're
witnessing and what you're sharing is incredible, because how else,
(17:40):
how else will anyone ever, you know, take the mantle
and try to make a difference, Like we need to
hear these kinds of stories. I think when you were
saying it's important for you to go and see this
firsthand so that you can advocate. That was one of
the questions that we have are like, well, why is
it important to go and see this? Well, increasing we
know the news whole is shrunk on media. You know this,
(18:01):
unless it's a crisis that's like happening right in that second,
you're not going to read about it. I mean, Venezuela
was in the news a year ago, but we're not
seeing Venezuela and the news anymore, right, I mean, and
there's still massive challenges there. There's massive challenges in Bangladesh. Now. Again,
I want to make sure I'm not trying to scare
on your audience, but I think it's really important that
(18:23):
people realize that this could be us someday. What you
saw on Venezuela Columbia border is a lot of movement
back and forth. I know from conversations we've had that.
(18:43):
When you were in Jordan, for instance, and we're with
a lot of the refugees from the Syrian crisis and
other regional crises, it was more about U n hcr's
work was in camps that were more fixed and permanent camps.
Can you talk about the difference. Sure, when I was
on the border in Colombia, I think the thing that
really shook me, well beyond everything I saw, was the
(19:04):
fact that this was the first stage. These people had
no idea what tomorrow would bring. Okay, it was the
first flight to seek safety and asylum, and many of
them had you know, had no you know, they certainly
didn't have crystal balls of what they were going to
be experiencing or what dangers lay ahead, other than the
information that they had gleaned from family and friends. When
(19:28):
I was in Jordan's, yes, we visited both urban refugees
who were literally within the city of Annan, which is
a massive city, and then we met refugee families who
were living in as Raq, which is one of the
newest refugee camps in the world. And actually it's not
beautiful at all. But this these camps, compared to what
(19:51):
I saw in Sub Saharan Africa, were light years ahead.
And uh, you know that there was solar energy because
it's in the desert, being able to provide some levels
of air conditioning to these homes because you know, can
you imagine spending you know, a summer in the Sahara,
you know, in a desert. But every single person that
I talked to wanted to go back to Syria. How
(20:12):
many people were in these camps. Well, there's two major
camps in Jordan's that are were primarily created and and
built to serve the Syrians fleeing, and one is as
Rak and the other is Zagre, and there's about twenty
eight thousand in each, give or take. These are small towns.
That's like the population of a town. I think I
(20:33):
grew up in a town that was yes, and I
mean so you can imagine the costs to provide the
care and feeding and then make sure the kids are
getting educated. Now, so there are schools, there are rec centers.
I'm guessing there are soccer fields. Everything's rudimentary, but there
is some form of yes um. And there's hospitals because
(20:56):
I'm guessing there's babies. Well, yes, there's a medical center.
There's several of them. Again, that is light years ahead
of when I was in Kakuma that had two hundred
thousand people with four schools, and at the time they
had eight PCs for that many people. Now, granted that
was five years ago, but I do want to add,
all right, what are PCs not max uh, personal computers
(21:18):
on the lapto laptop. Very good question, um, but you know,
you know desktops, Um, But of the refugees living in
Jordan do not live in camps out and about there
living in the city. I mean, I'm on and so
you have to think about, you know, how are they
(21:40):
becoming part of the lifestyle there, How are they getting homes,
how are they getting jobs? And these are other ways
you and hc R helps and you talk about how
these chips come about. Do you have people on the
ground in each place and they say, okay, time to come,
Here's where he's going to be orchestrated. Okay, because obviously
(22:01):
the last thing anybody wants to do is take up
valuable time of the people who are doing the work
to help refugees to be touring around with with you know,
quote unquote the i p s. But obviously for big
donors who want to go U HCR will will make
that happen. And certainly for board members who have the
responsibility to raise money. I mean, we all know Angelina
(22:21):
Jolie is the ambassador essentially at the very very top
of you and HCR. She has been a huge refugee advocate.
You know, she has gone to many many hot spots
in the world to to advocate, and obviously when she goes,
the press follows, right, which is really important. As a megaphone,
a gorgeous megaphone. Can you share some of the reasons
(22:49):
you're hopeful for the work that you're doing well, Pavia,
That's a tough question, um, but I will. I will
look at it through the lens first of all of business,
because companies are finally stepping up and saying, wait, we
could be hiring refugees, we could be um selling to refugees,
we could be creating products as opposed to looking at
(23:10):
these these people as like not really human. Um. I
remember years ago an op ed and I'm failing to
recall who the New York Times writer was, but he
said that being a refugee was being almost like being
an impurgatory. You're not dead, and you're not alive, and
when you are stateless, you do not have an identity.
(23:32):
And I am now starting to see because of technology,
because of biometrics, because of you know, the recognition of
of the the recognitions, there are ways that these people
can be protected and when they cross borders, they can
actually get healthcare because they can be recognized as to
who you know who their identity, because you have to
think about it. When you were fleeing from gunfire, it's
(23:54):
very difficult to go in and get your papers and
get your passports and everything. Yeah, I'm in one Syrian
man I met. He fled with his wife and three
children and the only thing they were able to bring
was a bag of clothes and his daughter's asthma medicine
and that was it. And he got shot in the leg.
And I met them a few years later and they
(24:16):
were living in Aman up seven flights of stairs, which
I you know, he could barely walk, and I luckily
you n HCR has set up a cash um donation
basis not a not a donation but I'm trying to
remember the exact terminology, but um. Every month they'd get
a cash allowance okay, and that you know, it's nowhere
near enough, but it gave them enough to be able
(24:39):
to find housing so that they were saying, and the kids,
the three kids are all going to school, but he
can't work because of not only his injury and his leg,
but also you know what about the PTSD. But I
digress again. Uh, Pavia, you asked me about what makes
me hopeful. So the technology, the fact that come Panese
(25:00):
like Tribani in the United States has hired several thousands
of refugees to work at its facilities around the world.
I didn't know. Yes, Okay, that's awesome high yeah, yeah.
The founder of Trevannig. You know, Airbnb has done wonderful
things around the world. They have provided funding. Google has
(25:20):
provided funding, Microsoft provided funding, UPS has provided funding, and
people are talking about it in the business world. Sloane Davidson,
who set up an organization Neighbor Hello Neighbor, which actually
helps the few refugees that we take into this country
anymore by helping them assimilate and and providing advocates within
the Pittsburgh area to help those refugees feel welcome and no,
(25:43):
g how do I register to go to school and
things like that, which you know, even for us who
live in the United States can be difficult sometimes, right,
So you can imagine if you speak a different language,
come from a different culture. So these things give me
hop Susan, this is so moving so in airing, and
I actually do feel hopeful after that because you never
(26:04):
really hear about I feel like you don't really hear
about crises. UM talked about in this way from a
practical standpoint. So so tell people who are feeling moved
where they can find out more information. Well, first of all,
they can go to USA for UNHCRS website and you know,
we we can provide that that you r l We'll
(26:26):
put a link to that in the show. That would
be all of us can become more versed in this.
You know, just Google refugee and follow the links. Secondly,
I encourage everyone to vote in the following election. And
the reason why is in the month of October, the
United States took in zero refugees. This is the lowest
that we've ever been in the last seventy years. Okay,
(26:48):
so this is not something to be proud of now
now and I get it people are scared of losing
their jobs and things like that. But this country is
vibrant and filled with all kinds of multicultural and if
you look at crime statistics, the crimes that are refugee
would it's like next enough on existing, Yes, non existent,
thank you. UM. I would also just think about the
(27:10):
purchasing you make. Look for companies that are helping refugees
around the world. Companies are talking about it. You just
have to open your ears and listen. But I think
you'll find a wealth of information if you go to
the USA for You n hc our website. Is it
interesting and helpful for these companies who are picking up
the mantle and showing bravery where maybe political leaders are not.
(27:30):
Is it helpful to tweet and say, I Microsoft, hats
off to you. I now eat Chobani. I'm gonna feel better,
want to go to the grocery store about buying Chabani
because of the work that they're doing. I mean, is
something small like this. Companies are presumably listening. Companies are listening,
and your friends are listening, and you can get them
to be doing it too, certainly, And you know, again,
(27:52):
just open your hearts. I mean, I think we we
sometimes we get so into our own lives that we
forget that this world is a massive place with all
sorts of different people. But they're just like us. Very well,
said beautiful Susan. Thank you so much for coming and
spending time with us and illuminating us about this horrible
global crisis and the great work that you are doing
(28:16):
with USA for You, n h c R. Where else
can we learn more about you and the work that
you do and the social good that you're up to
through McPherson Strategies. Thank you so much, Favia. That's lovely.
Before I talk about where people can find me, I
want to give a hat tip to both you and
Jenlyn for yes well for the great work you've done
with Fathom, because you get people to want to explore
(28:38):
and learn about the world and in all sorts of
fun and unique ways. And I think sometimes just travel
will open us up to so much more information that
we don't see when we just look at our navels.
You can't be zenophobic if you leave the house exactly.
But your listeners can find me at mcp strategies dot
(28:58):
com or on Twitter and Instagram at Susan mcpee one
and I tweet a lot. We'll retweet you. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Susan for being here. And that's
our show. Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard,
please subscribe, and you know, leave us a five store review.
Oh Way Ago is a production of I Heart Radio
(29:20):
and Fathom. You can find the details we talked about
in the show notes and on our website fathom away
dot com. Don't forget to sign up for our newsletter.
When you're there. You can get in touch with us
anytime at podcast at fathom away dot com and follow
us on all social media at at fathom Way to Go.
Please tag your best travel photos hashtag travel with Fathom.
If you want to really go deep on the travel inspirations,
(29:43):
pick up a copy of our book, Travel Anywhere and
Avoid being a tourist. I'm Jarlyne Gerba and I'm Pavio Rosatti,
and we'd like to thank our producer, editor and mixer
Marcy to Pena and our executive producer Christopher Hasciotis. For
more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. M
Open your hearts. I mean, I think we we sometimes
we get so into our own lives that we forget
that this world is a massive place with all sorts
of different people, but they're just like us. Welcome to
A Way to Go, a production of I Heart Radio
and Fathom. I'm jeral and Gerba and I'm Pavio Rosatti.
(00:26):
So far on our podcast, we've been talking about travel
the way many people think about it as a treat,
a special occasion or activity to share with friends and
loved ones, something you spend weeks or months or years
to plan and save up for an adventure, something that
absolutely look forward to and get excited about and share
for years to come. But for many people around the world,
leaving home and traveling is not a voluntary choice nor
(00:48):
a happy occasion. It's a question of safety and security
and sometimes their only option for survival. I'm talking about
the current refugee crisis around the world. There are some
seven d point eight million people worldwide who are displaced,
the highest number ever recorded. Forty one million of those
are internally displaced, twenty six million are refugees, the three
(01:11):
point five are seeking asylum. We've all read the news
stories about how this crisis is impacting countries around the
world in different ways, and the political implications for leaders
and for citizens. Many want to open their borders, but
lately many more want to close them. What can we
do about this? Our guest today has some answers and
is actively working on solutions. Susan McPherson, the founder of
(01:33):
McPherson's Strategies, is a corporate social responsibility expert who works
at the intersection of brands and social good Her clients
include the Tiffany and Co. Foundation, Salesforce, Dell, and Nerol.
But what we want to talk to her about today
is her work as a board member for USA for
U n h c R, the United Nations High Commission
(01:53):
for Refugees, the global organization dedicated to saving lives, protecting rights,
and building a better future for refugees, forcibly displaced communities
and stateless people. Susan, welcome, Thank you so much for
being here. I am so excited. Um I enjoy any
kind of interaction I have with you. Jarelyn and Eu Pavila,
(02:14):
thank you so much. We should mention that since its formation,
a boy the UN Assembly in n U n h
c R has helped an estimated fifty million people restart
their lives and has twice received the Nobel Peace Prize.
So how did you get involved in all of this?
I was recruited to join the Board of USA for
(02:34):
U n HCR, which of course is the advocacy and
philanthropic arm of U n h c R in the
United States. A little over five years ago, when I'll
be honest with you, the American public was not very
much in the know on what refugees were, uh, the
difference between a refugee and an immigrant and a migrant.
(02:56):
And I have to say, I don't know how much
more say educated they are, but clearly because there has
been a massive influx of refugee crisis is around the world,
we see it much more in the news. And you know,
you would have had to been under a rock if
you didn't see that Syrian boy who was faced down,
uh three four years ago, who had drowned while his
(03:18):
family was trying to seek asylum in marrowing photo hiring photograph.
But I joined the board, and I had to do
a deep learning process myself because I did not know,
you know, as much certainly as I do today. And
I realized It is a hugely complex issue and with
many different opinions, But the one thing I think we
(03:40):
can all agree on it's not going away anytime soon. No.
In fact, it's at an all time high and getting worse.
Let's step back one second and go back to what
you were saying earlier. Can you break down for us,
since I'm sure a lot of people are learning about
this for the first time, what is the difference between
an immigrant, a refugee, and somebody seeking asylum? Or well,
(04:00):
immigrants are are coming to this country, they or to
any country and they apply, but they're not seeking They're
not coming to a country out of fear of losing
their life. Okay. A refugee is someone who if that
person or is that the person is making the case
that if that person stays in his or her own homeland,
(04:22):
she or he will be in extreme danger. And that
is how the u N set it up, because they
wanted to make sure if people are fleeing that if
they end up in another country, they have the right
to actually pursue asylum if they can prove, which can
be sometimes challenging, that they are indeed in danger. And
(04:43):
these reasons for danger can be sexual harassment, sexual discrimination,
sexual violence, violence, it can be they're displaced people, and
it's racism, it's ethnic cleansing, it's all, it's it's all
of these horrific xenophobia, even within a country right absolutely.
Now what is fascinating but also terrifying is with the
(05:05):
onset of climate change. There there is discussions in the
u n on how do we deal with climate refugees
because of disasters and hurricanes and tsunamis and the resulting
famine and hunger situations that will take place. And if
you fast forward to the future when there are is
lack of water. I mean, we all know we can
(05:27):
go a few days without food, but we cannot live
without water. And what will people be doing to seek
water across borders? I know that in terms of the
u n H c rs were the majority. Some of
the refugees are coming from Syria, Afghanistan and South Sudan. Yes, However,
(05:49):
Venezuela numbers are growing because of the crisis in Venezuela
and me and mar where there has been genocide. You
have massive, massive numbers of real Hingo, which are the
Muslim refugees crossing the borders into Bangladesh, which is causing
another crisis. As we think about these numbers are and
the causes are the majority of the people who are
(06:13):
displaced displaced for political reasons. It is I mean Syria,
it's the war. You could say that's political. I would
say that that's for instance, it's that's not an environmental crisis.
Those are not fleeing because of sexual violence. Those are
basically under the general category well is it's safe to
say that they're generally under the category of political violence.
(06:33):
Political violence. However, we also know that that sexual violence
is a tool of war and it has been for
thousands of years, and women in you know, in intrinsically
are the ones who suffer. And you see many children,
massive percentages of refugees are our children, and many of
them are fleeing without without parents, and we're seeing it
(06:55):
at our southern border right when people are crossing the
border and looking for asylum. Are most people thinking we're
going to go home at some point or what's the reality?
They're great question, Genrelyn, and I have to say that
every refugee I have ever met over the years, and
every piece of documentation that I've read, that is the
(07:17):
hope no one wants to flee their home. Nobody, you know,
think about your home and how comfortable it is, and
sometimes yes it maybe you need to get you get
it cleaned, or you need to straighten up, but it's
still your home and where you feel safe. And so
that is the dream, the harsh reality. I was in Kakuma,
which is a two hundred thousand persons twood refugee camp
(07:41):
in Kenya. There have been people there for twenty five years.
There's probably there's people born and they getting married there
and they start their lives there, and there's an entire
industry within the camp. But many of those are from
South Sudan, from the Congo, from the d r C,
and those countries are still at war. So it is
very very you know, the thought or the hope in
(08:05):
the immediate future they're being able to go home. It's
not a it's not a pretty thought. Part of the
work that you do. I know, because we've talked about
this is you've you go on trips, yes, and you've
been on four trips so far, and we want to
get into all of them. But you most recently got
back from the border of Colombia and Venezuela. The reason
I take these trips is if I don't have intimate
(08:27):
experiences meeting these people, learning what their struggle is personally,
it's very difficult for me to advocate on behalf of them.
And I find it also makes me not only a
better board member, but a better citizen in the United States.
So I can speak with some conviction about this this disaster.
Can you tell us what you saw? Certainly we spent
(08:49):
time in Bogota, Cucuta, and Medine and Cucuta is right
at the border. It's one of the first spots that
a or for locations that Venezuelan's would arrive in on
their way to try to seek refuge in in Colombia.
And we actually were on the bridge watching people. Now,
(09:12):
a vast majority of the people we saw crossing the
bridge would go back to Venezuela leader that day they
came across. Because currently in Venezuela right now, there is
absolutely no supplies that one needs on a day to
day basis. We're talking basics like milk, flour, everything, toilet paper,
infant formula, you know the things that especially young people
(09:34):
are you know, young adults need for their families what
I was thinking today as I was coming here is
in my recollection, I had never seen so many young babies.
(09:57):
I met two women, one of which was aged twenty,
the other was aged nineteen. Both had walked fifteen and
sixteen hours, respectfully, literally within four days after giving birth.
First of all, I don't have children, and then I've
never seen a child under three months old, So to
see a baby that was four or five days old
(10:19):
was one like it was like, oh my god, it's moving.
I mean, I hate to sound so ridiculous, but they
are so unbelievably tiny and helpless. And to see then
a woman who could have been my daughter carrying this,
this this real being, of course with like another child
at her hand, it was probably one of the most
heart wrenching moments I've ever seen. And what was she
(10:40):
crossing for? Was she crossing to get supplies and in
formula to feed the baby? Absolutely, and then she'd be
then going back and not she was actually coming over
to seek asylum. What kind of numbers are we talking about?
Ebbs and flows? And I have to say, in the
last several months, Columbia has gotten tighter on their borders.
There were estimates of about forty thousand crossing a day,
(11:00):
but about five thousand a day are staying, and they
would either put forth the idea to potentially seek asylum
in Columbia or pass through to try to get to
Peru or to Ecuador. What many don't know before they
make the crossing is if they are going on to
bo Guita or Metahin, they have to literally it's not
(11:21):
just an easy walk, right, They have to go up
nine thousand feet. Colombia is a very mountainous country. Venezuela
is in the most part of very tropical country, so
they are not prepared for the winter and the horrific,
you know, extremes. And I think just going back to
these two young women with their infants, you know, they're
they're beautiful, beautiful children who have children. But you think
(11:45):
about trafficking and sexual violence that can be happening on
the route, and that also was filling me with everyone
so vulnerable and what I'm picturing, and I'm not sure
if this is correct, but I'm I'm kind of picturing
a parade of people. Does it seemed like everyone traveling
together on one route or is everything sparse? And when
people are going up to Medine and Bogata. Do they
(12:09):
try to escape or kind of hide within the masses
or how does that they're safer in numbers? And many
families travel together and relatives of families, and they typically
will go to a city where they have a connection.
I mean that happens all over the world. And they
there are stations along the way that various aid organizations
(12:29):
have have provided where they will help, you know, fill
them with food or provide Facebook where they can reach
out to various you know, folks. But it is literally
very dangerous. I met a grandmother in Metaheen who had
left with her two grandsons because her daughter had left
the two children and went off to Brazil and making
(12:52):
her own as well. And yes, I mean I don't
know the intimacy, yes, but she so the grandmother obviously
felt a very deep responsibility to take care of both
the children. One was one year old and one was five,
and the five year old had an ear issue that
he couldn't he couldn't get medical attention in Venezuela, and
(13:12):
they walked and hitchhiked and walked, and she was sexually
violated when one of the trucks that carried her, you know,
while she had her two grandsons. And I mean these
are things like, yeah, it's car funny, and I don't
want your your listeners to to you know, get depressed.
I mean, there are things that can be doing, we
can be doing, and I think it's also it's it's
(13:34):
also opening up our hearts, right and sure, you know
we The one thing about the United States is almost
all of us came here, not because things were honky
dory where we left. My grandparents would have all been
dead if they stayed in Russia. Um. And you know
that the wars caused people to leave and seek and seek.
(13:55):
Not it's not a better job. Okay, These people weren't
running for a better job. They were literally running the
young women. You asked, what were they seeking? The women
would didn't have enough proper health to create breast milk,
so they needed to go find formula. Right, And and
it's an animal instinct, right, you you are going to
do what you can to not only stay alive, but
(14:16):
keep your child alive. We've heard that there are countries
and agencies that are helping in some ways by providing
healthcare or providing insurances, and sometimes it's even surprising the
countries that you hear about that are providing some of
the support. What are some of the programs that you've
seen working, and you know, what are some things that
you think we could be doing more else? Sure, well
(14:38):
that's a very large question, So I take it. Take
I'll take little bites of it. Gerlyn, first of all,
and I think it's important for your listeners to understand
you n hcr's role is the protection of these people, okay,
and to ensure they are given a fair chance of asylum.
And you n HCR works at the bequest of the
president or leader of the particular country that is receiving
(14:59):
the influx. So um. So in this case, did Columbia
call un h I mean? And the good thing is
is because UNHCR has worked for many years in Colombia,
because of the drug cartels and paramilitary activities that have
been happening, there were already all kinds of refugee struggles
that historically that used to go the other way other
out of Columbia. Now people are coming into exactly and
(15:21):
many are returning from Venezuela who were born in Colombia. Um.
And you know this is happening in many parts of
Latin America. I mean it's a chorous continent that's new.
And hcr's primary role where you know, they operate camps
where they work at borders. They bring in and partner
with other AID organizations and of course other U N partners.
So you would have UN World Food Program providing food.
(15:44):
In Colombia, there were several Catholic organizations providing sustenance for
these people. Someone else is bringing doctors, um you know,
Save the Children is their UNI SETH Doctors without Borders.
I mean it World vision and it just depends where
in the world, and you know the contracts that are created,
but it takes a village, okay. And in other When
(16:07):
I was in Kakuma in Kenya and when I was
in Ashrog in Jordan's, those were specific camps where within
the camps you had AID organizations helping, you know, very
playing their various roles and doing exceptional jobs at helping.
So you know, the first way people can always help
is supporting these organizations through either you know, financial support
(16:31):
or volunteer or raising money on you know, running a
race for Save the Children or what have you. There's
numerous ways. But the other thing and I think it's
really important for thinking to consider our vote is very
important when we go next November and every November. Your
vote can mean so much to opening our borders again,
(16:54):
but also sending a signal to the leaders in our
country and other leaders that these people are are tremendously
valuable individuals and refugees are the most resilient humans. Think
what the strength it takes to do, you know, to
go on these journeys. I met a woman in Kakuma
who had was eight months pregnant, caring two little children,
(17:17):
who walked from South Sudan to Kenya, Okay barefoot. Now
that takes the whole, you know. Like when I would
tell my pregnant friends, they were like, I'm not complaining anymore.
What you're saying is amazing. That the things that humans
can do to each other is horrifying, But what you're
witnessing and what you're sharing is incredible, because how else,
(17:40):
how else will anyone ever, you know, take the mantle
and try to make a difference, Like we need to
hear these kinds of stories. I think when you were
saying it's important for you to go and see this
firsthand so that you can advocate. That was one of
the questions that we have are like, well, why is
it important to go and see this? Well, increasing we
know the news whole is shrunk on media. You know this,
(18:01):
unless it's a crisis that's like happening right in that second,
you're not going to read about it. I mean, Venezuela
was in the news a year ago, but we're not
seeing Venezuela and the news anymore, right, I mean, and
there's still massive challenges there. There's massive challenges in Bangladesh. Now. Again,
I want to make sure I'm not trying to scare
on your audience, but I think it's really important that
(18:23):
people realize that this could be us someday. What you
saw on Venezuela Columbia border is a lot of movement
back and forth. I know from conversations we've had that.
(18:43):
When you were in Jordan, for instance, and we're with
a lot of the refugees from the Syrian crisis and
other regional crises, it was more about U n hcr's
work was in camps that were more fixed and permanent camps.
Can you talk about the difference. Sure, when I was
on the border in Colombia, I think the thing that
really shook me, well beyond everything I saw, was the
(19:04):
fact that this was the first stage. These people had
no idea what tomorrow would bring. Okay, it was the
first flight to seek safety and asylum, and many of
them had you know, had no you know, they certainly
didn't have crystal balls of what they were going to
be experiencing or what dangers lay ahead, other than the
information that they had gleaned from family and friends. When
(19:28):
I was in Jordan's, yes, we visited both urban refugees
who were literally within the city of Annan, which is
a massive city, and then we met refugee families who
were living in as Raq, which is one of the
newest refugee camps in the world. And actually it's not
beautiful at all. But this these camps, compared to what
(19:51):
I saw in Sub Saharan Africa, were light years ahead.
And uh, you know that there was solar energy because
it's in the desert, being able to provide some levels
of air conditioning to these homes because you know, can
you imagine spending you know, a summer in the Sahara,
you know, in a desert. But every single person that
I talked to wanted to go back to Syria. How
(20:12):
many people were in these camps. Well, there's two major
camps in Jordan's that are were primarily created and and
built to serve the Syrians fleeing, and one is as
Rak and the other is Zagre, and there's about twenty
eight thousand in each, give or take. These are small towns.
That's like the population of a town. I think I
(20:33):
grew up in a town that was yes, and I
mean so you can imagine the costs to provide the
care and feeding and then make sure the kids are
getting educated. Now, so there are schools, there are rec centers.
I'm guessing there are soccer fields. Everything's rudimentary, but there
is some form of yes um. And there's hospitals because
(20:56):
I'm guessing there's babies. Well, yes, there's a medical center.
There's several of them. Again, that is light years ahead
of when I was in Kakuma that had two hundred
thousand people with four schools, and at the time they
had eight PCs for that many people. Now, granted that
was five years ago, but I do want to add,
all right, what are PCs not max uh, personal computers
(21:18):
on the lapto laptop. Very good question, um, but you know,
you know desktops, Um, But of the refugees living in
Jordan do not live in camps out and about there
living in the city. I mean, I'm on and so
you have to think about, you know, how are they
(21:40):
becoming part of the lifestyle there, How are they getting homes,
how are they getting jobs? And these are other ways
you and hc R helps and you talk about how
these chips come about. Do you have people on the
ground in each place and they say, okay, time to come,
Here's where he's going to be orchestrated. Okay, because obviously
(22:01):
the last thing anybody wants to do is take up
valuable time of the people who are doing the work
to help refugees to be touring around with with you know,
quote unquote the i p s. But obviously for big
donors who want to go U HCR will will make
that happen. And certainly for board members who have the
responsibility to raise money. I mean, we all know Angelina
(22:21):
Jolie is the ambassador essentially at the very very top
of you and HCR. She has been a huge refugee advocate.
You know, she has gone to many many hot spots
in the world to to advocate, and obviously when she goes,
the press follows, right, which is really important. As a megaphone,
a gorgeous megaphone. Can you share some of the reasons
(22:49):
you're hopeful for the work that you're doing well, Pavia,
That's a tough question, um, but I will. I will
look at it through the lens first of all of business,
because companies are finally stepping up and saying, wait, we
could be hiring refugees, we could be um selling to refugees,
we could be creating products as opposed to looking at
(23:10):
these these people as like not really human. Um. I
remember years ago an op ed and I'm failing to
recall who the New York Times writer was, but he
said that being a refugee was being almost like being
an impurgatory. You're not dead, and you're not alive, and
when you are stateless, you do not have an identity.
(23:32):
And I am now starting to see because of technology,
because of biometrics, because of you know, the recognition of
of the the recognitions, there are ways that these people
can be protected and when they cross borders, they can
actually get healthcare because they can be recognized as to
who you know who their identity, because you have to
think about it. When you were fleeing from gunfire, it's
(23:54):
very difficult to go in and get your papers and
get your passports and everything. Yeah, I'm in one Syrian
man I met. He fled with his wife and three
children and the only thing they were able to bring
was a bag of clothes and his daughter's asthma medicine
and that was it. And he got shot in the leg.
And I met them a few years later and they
(24:16):
were living in Aman up seven flights of stairs, which
I you know, he could barely walk, and I luckily
you n HCR has set up a cash um donation
basis not a not a donation but I'm trying to
remember the exact terminology, but um. Every month they'd get
a cash allowance okay, and that you know, it's nowhere
near enough, but it gave them enough to be able
(24:39):
to find housing so that they were saying, and the kids,
the three kids are all going to school, but he
can't work because of not only his injury and his leg,
but also you know what about the PTSD. But I
digress again. Uh, Pavia, you asked me about what makes
me hopeful. So the technology, the fact that come Panese
(25:00):
like Tribani in the United States has hired several thousands
of refugees to work at its facilities around the world.
I didn't know. Yes, Okay, that's awesome high yeah, yeah.
The founder of Trevannig. You know, Airbnb has done wonderful
things around the world. They have provided funding. Google has
(25:20):
provided funding, Microsoft provided funding, UPS has provided funding, and
people are talking about it in the business world. Sloane Davidson,
who set up an organization Neighbor Hello Neighbor, which actually
helps the few refugees that we take into this country
anymore by helping them assimilate and and providing advocates within
the Pittsburgh area to help those refugees feel welcome and no,
(25:43):
g how do I register to go to school and
things like that, which you know, even for us who
live in the United States can be difficult sometimes, right,
So you can imagine if you speak a different language,
come from a different culture. So these things give me
hop Susan, this is so moving so in airing, and
I actually do feel hopeful after that because you never
(26:04):
really hear about I feel like you don't really hear
about crises. UM talked about in this way from a
practical standpoint. So so tell people who are feeling moved
where they can find out more information. Well, first of all,
they can go to USA for UNHCRS website and you know,
we we can provide that that you r l We'll
(26:26):
put a link to that in the show. That would
be all of us can become more versed in this.
You know, just Google refugee and follow the links. Secondly,
I encourage everyone to vote in the following election. And
the reason why is in the month of October, the
United States took in zero refugees. This is the lowest
that we've ever been in the last seventy years. Okay,
(26:48):
so this is not something to be proud of now
now and I get it people are scared of losing
their jobs and things like that. But this country is
vibrant and filled with all kinds of multicultural and if
you look at crime statistics, the crimes that are refugee
would it's like next enough on existing, Yes, non existent,
thank you. UM. I would also just think about the
(27:10):
purchasing you make. Look for companies that are helping refugees
around the world. Companies are talking about it. You just
have to open your ears and listen. But I think
you'll find a wealth of information if you go to
the USA for You n hc our website. Is it
interesting and helpful for these companies who are picking up
the mantle and showing bravery where maybe political leaders are not.
(27:30):
Is it helpful to tweet and say, I Microsoft, hats
off to you. I now eat Chobani. I'm gonna feel better,
want to go to the grocery store about buying Chabani
because of the work that they're doing. I mean, is
something small like this. Companies are presumably listening. Companies are listening,
and your friends are listening, and you can get them
to be doing it too, certainly, And you know, again,
(27:52):
just open your hearts. I mean, I think we we
sometimes we get so into our own lives that we
forget that this world is a massive place with all
sorts of different people. But they're just like us. Very well,
said beautiful Susan. Thank you so much for coming and
spending time with us and illuminating us about this horrible
global crisis and the great work that you are doing
(28:16):
with USA for You, n h c R. Where else
can we learn more about you and the work that
you do and the social good that you're up to
through McPherson Strategies. Thank you so much, Favia. That's lovely.
Before I talk about where people can find me, I
want to give a hat tip to both you and
Jenlyn for yes well for the great work you've done
with Fathom, because you get people to want to explore
(28:38):
and learn about the world and in all sorts of
fun and unique ways. And I think sometimes just travel
will open us up to so much more information that
we don't see when we just look at our navels.
You can't be zenophobic if you leave the house exactly.
But your listeners can find me at mcp strategies dot
(28:58):
com or on Twitter and Instagram at Susan mcpee one
and I tweet a lot. We'll retweet you. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Susan for being here. And that's
our show. Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard,
please subscribe, and you know, leave us a five store review.
Oh Way Ago is a production of I Heart Radio
(29:20):
and Fathom. You can find the details we talked about
in the show notes and on our website fathom away
dot com. Don't forget to sign up for our newsletter.
When you're there. You can get in touch with us
anytime at podcast at fathom away dot com and follow
us on all social media at at fathom Way to Go.
Please tag your best travel photos hashtag travel with Fathom.
If you want to really go deep on the travel inspirations,
(29:43):
pick up a copy of our book, Travel Anywhere and
Avoid being a tourist. I'm Jarlyne Gerba and I'm Pavio Rosatti,
and we'd like to thank our producer, editor and mixer
Marcy to Pena and our executive producer Christopher Hasciotis. For
more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. M
Popular Podcasts
1. The Podium
The Podium: An NBC Olympic and Paralympic podcast. Join us for insider coverage during the intense competition at the 2024 Paris Olympic and Paralympic Games. In the run-up to the Opening Ceremony, we’ll bring you deep into the stories and events that have you know and those you'll be hard-pressed to forget.
2. In The Village
In The Village will take you into the most exclusive areas of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games to explore the daily life of athletes, complete with all the funny, mundane and unexpected things you learn off the field of play. Join Elizabeth Beisel as she sits down with Olympians each day in Paris.
3. iHeartOlympics: The Latest
Listen to the latest news from the 2024 Olympics.