June 2, 2021 • 51 mins
In his podcast debut, Steve Wilson, a staple name in podcasting, stops by Adlandia to talk about where podcasts are going next, creating scripted fiction in audio, the opportunities that exist for brands in the space, and why he is excited about his new role as Chief Strategy Officer at podcast studio, QCODE. Plus Alexa and Laura talk about innovation in the podcast industry and where we could see new audio experiences emerge.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are
going to have to start making better content. I think
we're gonna be talking about this for a long time.
When you program for everyone, you program for no one.
I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're
trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you
happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It
really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currentti and I'm Alexa Kristen.
(00:27):
Welcome back at Landia. We've got a great show, an
old friend Steve Wilson coming on to talk all things
podcasting and audio, and speaking of that, I be upfronts
for last week. So many new shows announced, really fascinating stats,
though not surprising. The podcast space projected to bring in
(00:47):
a billion dollars this year, expected to double in the
next two years. So why the space is certainly showing
no signs of slowing down. I think, Alexa, what we're
going to get into a bit with Steve is the
in a vation side of audio and podcasting and not
just looking at it as a place to integrate, you know,
pre roles, mid roles, post roles, but really thinking about
(01:10):
form factors, new I P development, et cetera. I think
the audio and podcasting has not reached its full potential,
not even close yet. And so when the IB comes
out and says we're a billion dollar industry now, that's
just scratching the surface. And really to really focus on
advertising dollars, kind of traditional advertising dollars. What you and
(01:34):
I have been talking about is where's the opportunity where
we could be expanding what all they is the definition
of podcasting and audio. The idea that creators could be
using the platform live to create and collaborate is so exciting.
So actually create the art, create the content live with
(01:55):
other participants. There's so many opportunities with that. The other thing,
and I think that is really exciting is this idea
of you know, the traditional episodic series or even an
author like Malcolm Gladwell getting on the mic and writing live.
Really taking the spoken word to the next level. When
(02:15):
you start thinking of that and you start thinking of
social audio platforms and audio platforms as places to express
the spoken word, all of a sudden, the ideas kind
of our endless, these ideas of characters being created that
maybe only live in audio, and all of a sudden,
have created this whole new sound experience that you're frankly
(02:39):
walking people through and something that they could potentially participate in.
I think we just haven't gotten there in terms of
figuring out what audio is going to feel like, what
this kind of immersive audio experience are going to feel like.
And at this point, Skuy's the limit to the point
where we could be reinventing what meetings feel like. We
(03:01):
could be reinventing in terms of how we bring new
ideas to the table, not just in a power point,
but spoken words storytelling, bringing in collaborators to bring something
to life. Yeah, there's so many provocative thoughts in that.
This has me thinking about the Bomber Mafia, the new
audio book from Malcolm Gladwell and Pushkin that comes with
(03:23):
a downloadable PDF that helps to provide just enough additional
context to get up to speed. So I think this
mashup of mediums and finding new use cases for the space. Um,
as you said, we're just beginning to scratch the surface
of new and innovative ways to bring storytelling to life.
(03:44):
I couldn't agree more. And I love the Bomber Mafia example.
It got me thinking so much about what is the
future of book publishing, what's the future of authorship in
a text format that now can be translated into an
audio world. And I think we both encourage our listeners
(04:04):
to download Bomber Mafia. It is impressive. It is it
is theater. It is theater, and also look into the future.
And with that, Steve Wilson, we'll be right back and
(04:27):
we're back on the mic with longtime friend podcast extraordinaire
Steve Wilson. Hey guys, happy to be with you. Steve Wilson,
the chief strategy officer of q Code. Steve, We go back.
This episode is years in the making. I think we
(04:50):
were saying what physically we met in at the Soho
Apple Store Malcolm Gladwell was doing his finale right of
revisionist history. Yeah, you're a big fan of the message
that we created a g e and you were this
(05:10):
kind of amazing supporter and um, we just think a
friendship started from there. It's been incredible and certainly long
time in the making. Thanks for having me, guys. I
remember the first time, yeah, meeting you guys in person
was in New York kind of after an event at
the Apple Store and Soho. Um, you know Apple had
done an event for Malcolm Gladwell's for Business History podcast.
(05:32):
I had worked when I was an Apple on the Message, Um,
which you guys did such a brilliant job of with Panoply,
and so I don't know during that campaign if we
worked as much directly together or both just kind of
via Panoply, but knew of knew of you guys your
amazing work. And uh, I think I think the rest
is history, UM, and I think I would I should say,
(05:52):
you guys have a ton to do with what I'm
doing now, like you code, I think the Message and
what you guys did there, which was so innovative, it
was one of the shows that really made me pay
attention to scripted fiction, along with Limetown. Uh. And you
know the work of Paul Bay and Lauren Shipping, Fred
Greenhalge and there's a number of amazing creators out there
(06:12):
who are doing scripted fiction. And you know, I really
felt like, you know, it's a little weird that podcasts
have so much fantastic narrative nonfiction, but yet with fiction
being such a huge um component of what we all
consume in media, it's a bit unrepresented in podcasts. So Anyway,
all that to say, I really credit you guys a
(06:34):
lot with studying me on the on the journey towards
where I ended up at you could that's amazing, Thanks Steve.
Thanks Steve. So you were at Apple for fifteen years.
And it's funny when anyone talked about or talked about
Apple podcasts, they would say, Steve Wilson, do you know
I mean you were like synonymous, right, I don't know
(06:55):
if you know this, maybe you do, but like you're
synonymous some things. Yeah, there's a big team over there.
A lot of people deserve credit for for podcast at Apple,
and and I've been in it for a very long time,
but it's happy to be a part of that team. Absolutely, Steve.
When you think about the last fifteen years, but namely
the last five to six really Sincereal broke through, what
(07:16):
have been the big signals you've seen that indicate, you know,
just the massive amount of growth this particular industry has seen. Yeah, well,
I think it's incredible where we're at today. You know,
podcast have gone through a number of different eras. I
think you could say, and and you're right, you know,
certainly Sereal And I would also credit Gimblet and what
(07:37):
they do is start Up being a really special inflection point. Uh.
Fun uh sort of history. Those two podcasts came out
the same month alongside of Apple making podcast preinstalled on
every shipping iOS device in October. So together you got
this breakout global number one hit. You got Startup telling
(07:59):
the business story of podcasts um and you know the
amazing company that became Gimlet, and Apple's at making easier
than ever for someone to one tap listen to a show.
So I think there was this sort of lightning in
the bottom moment that I think there's gonna be or
should be case studies on on all of that and
how it's grown. But since that time, you know, yeah,
there's now over two million podcasts and Apple podcasts and Spotify.
(08:22):
The contents incredible, and I think we've seen this great
virtuous circle of audience which has led to more revenue
and podcasts, which is led to greater publisher investment and
creator investment. Uh. And it's been this fly wheel that's
really created the growth that we're saying today. And you know,
if you go back, it's kind of funny. You'd hear
people ask questions like do you listen to podcasts, you know,
(08:44):
which is such a funny question. You'd never say, do
you do you read books? Do you watch movies? But
somehow that was a really normal question to ask back
in Seen. But I think we're now at a place
where podcasts a mainstream. There's so much great content to
listen to. And yeah, I don't think it's I don't
think we've seen sort of a you know, too much
(09:05):
too many shows. Right, we were not sitting back thinking,
you know, why bother create a new movie or create
a create a write a book. Right, there's so much
room for innovation and new stories to be told in podcasting.
You talked about fictional you storytelling and q code is
narrative audio production. You guys are focusing a lot on
(09:29):
fictional storytelling. And when we started, the message fictional storytelling
was like very rare, very rare, like really going back
to like almost you know, radio theater of like the thirties,
and there wasn't kind of this reboot of that. What
are you doing at q code that you're putting a
(09:50):
lot of effort into fictional storytelling? Like what's the future there? Yeah?
I think you know, que code we really think of
ourselves as a storytelling company first and foremost, and we
do specialize in scripted fiction. So you know, the company
was started by Rob Herding, who was a longtime agent
UM and he really saw an opportunity to tell new
kinds of stories. You know, Hollywood can be a bit
(10:12):
risk adversed for a variety of reasons, and in an
audio you have a really amazing opportunity to combine an
incredible story with amazing talent and really be innovative on
the technical side. And those are those are some of
the things that he cold is really focused on. So
I think, you know, as we're looking to the future
of of narrative audio, we're thinking a lot about how
(10:34):
we can tell stories in ways that people haven't before,
you know. And I love the comparison to you know,
old time radio. I think it's a really apt one.
There's been some incredible creators. There's an amazing community around
audio drama UM like our slash Audio Drama and read
it has a hundred thousand people who love and are
making this kind of content. And I think you could
(10:54):
is really excited just to be a part of that
community making things that you know, we'll delight people and
in different kinds of ways. Side note, our producer Ryan
is a fictional well he does everything, but he created
the Angel of Vine. He's like, head not he wants
to get in on this conversation. He's like a yeah, Bryan,
just granpa mind. Yeah, I don't want to hijack the conversation,
(11:19):
but I love hearing all about it. But I think
it's It's funny because when we met Ryan and he
started talking to us about this particular side of podcasting,
one of the things that we kind of geeked out
on was that it is still really nascent. It is
actually hard to create great fictional audio. Why do you
(11:41):
think it is such an untapped genre. I'd love to
hear what Steve thinks. First and foremost. I was waiting
for Ryan, Um, yeah, please go for it. I think
that the barriers to entry are low when it comes
to fiction, but I think that also creates a certain
amount of folks that are just figuring out the kinks
in working out their voices. Storytellers, and there's a lot
(12:03):
that goes into a production, especially when you start involving
celebrity talent and the expectations that come with that from
a storytelling perspective where folks don't realize just how much
goes into the musicality of having to create for one sense,
if you will, like things stick out like a sore
thumb from a storytelling perspective when all you have is
(12:24):
your ears. And that's the thing I think people miss,
is that, just the ability to create immersive story without
overdoing it. On the audio, I think that's right. You know,
there's some incredible audio fiction out there that you know,
sometimes feels like it could be you know, um simplified.
(12:44):
Sometimes people try to do too much in the audio,
and you know, I think that there's an opportunity to
really think about you know, things like sound effects and
dialogue and that's tricky too, like in a new way
that don't feel like, you know, it's relying on things
like a narrator. So totally could could have some of
those shows that, um, you know, have a narrator voice.
(13:06):
So there's a I guess what i'd call a conceit
for why this conversation is being recorded. But there's other ones.
And we're moving to shows that have sort of a
whole fly on the wall perspective, like Unwanted, which is
a eighties action comedy. Uh, starting with More and Morris,
you're just sort of a you know, a presence in
that room, listening to the main character sort of joke
(13:27):
around and laugh and experience the world as they go
through that series. Let's click and for a second on
less so genre more so, what makes podcasting successful, Steve,
You've had an up close and personal look at the
full range of work that has been in the market
over the last decade. What are the core or staple
(13:48):
ingredients that you have seen time and time again resonate
with audiences that keep it, you know, top of mind
for its listeners and maybe even on the top charts. Yeah.
I think that this is a overused expression, but it's
so true, you know. I think podcasts have to offer
a real strong benefit to a listener. And those things
(14:08):
are the you know, entertain, inform and inspire, you know
which which feels so often said, but but in podcasts
is so true, right you have to think about how
and and one of the exciting things in podcasts is
that this is a medium that fits into a different
modality in people's lives oftentimes, right, So, um, and I
think for marketers and advertisers out there something to consider
(14:28):
as well. There's so many things competing for our visual attention,
right you know, TikTok is competing with snapchat, as competing
with YouTube, competing with Netflix, any other video that's out
there in the world, or any app that's out there
in the world. Oftentimes, podcast listening fits into a time
when we're on our commute, or we're working out, or
we're being intentional about taking a walk and being uh,
(14:50):
screen free. And so I think they really have provided
this good, um, good and positive escape for people as
there going about their daily lives. And I think that
is an area in which you want to have a
really high value experience, if you will, with the content
you're consuming. So it's got to be really entertaining or
(15:10):
really informative. The content's got to make the most use
of that time that you're allotting it because oftentimes podcasts
are a little longer than other mediums, twenty to forty
minutes or beyond, and uh, you know, really engaging personalities, right,
whether that's a chat show or interview or someone who
can really hold an audience but bring that sense of
(15:31):
community into someone's ears. And and oftentimes you know, the
word intimacy is used in relation to podcasting because it
becomes such a a personal experience that you have with
the person that you're listening to, oftentimes hours per week.
I think a lot of the return um that we see,
especially from an advertising perspective, would indicate that, yeah, this
(15:52):
is a medium that is uninterrupted or largely uninterrupted in
terms of you know, things like recall. There's other elements
like cover. You know, at one point, I feel like
you had a whole side gig on critiquing cover art
and people were like tweeting you work in progress designs
to get your feedback, Um, what are those additives that
(16:12):
really round out or allow a show to break through
in such a cluttered environment, and particularly some of the genres,
there's just so much What are those maybe secret ingredients
that you might recommend people really think twice about. Yeah, well,
even though this is an audio medium, visual design of
course still matters. And I think, you know, is how
(16:34):
people are going to find your show and get insight
into what it's all about. And so you know that
starts with the artwork that you put up on the
platforms Apple Podcasts, Spotify and everywhere else to provide Uh,
potential listeners with a sense for what your show is
going to be about, and I think take people further
into the world. So as we think about scripted fiction
(16:55):
at q CODE, we're trying to always strike that balance
in our visual design of providing enough information about the
world while also leaving a lot of room for the
listeners imagination, because that's really fun aspect of what we're doing.
You know, the listener can he you know, think about
what that character looks like in their own way. Um
So I think that kind of visual design is really important.
(17:17):
And then of course all the other elements of your
product packaging, which are your metadata, your titles, your descriptions,
all of that really matters. And as you think about
this as a digital product alongside of anything else out
there that it's competing for people's attention, I should say,
you know, podcast sort of packaging really makes a difference
in terms of how a consumer might resonate with your show.
I love that you're calling a podcast a product. I
(17:41):
think that's how we've always thought about it. It's really
important for brands and marketers to start thinking about podcasting,
original content, audio and podcasting as a product. So Malcolm
Gladwell just launched his first designed for audio book, Bomber Aafia,
and the Wall Street Journal was covering the launch and
(18:04):
something that he said that I think is so right
on and is going to lead us to think about
podcasting and audio storytelling in a very different way. He said,
we think with our eyes and feel with our ears.
Audio is actually a visual medium if done right, And
so if you think about it like this, like brands
(18:25):
could be using audio to describe something visually or to
create an experience. Is a different word for visual imagination
because I just had the head exploding emoji as you
said that, right, Because like when I think of like
visual medium in the same way we engage with books,
you know, Steve said the word I want to imagine
(18:48):
the world that you're bringing me into, and my experience
or world is going to be different from your, Seve,
different from yours, Alexa. And isn't that then what makes
this such a person intimate medium. So Alex says, as
you said that, I was like, well, that's right, And Laura,
I mean, like think about the opportunity and audio to
actually be more linear about what I'm trying to show you,
(19:11):
what I'm trying to tell you or the experience I
actually want you to have. Let me walk you through.
What when you open the lace potato chips in the
middle of the summer and you're eating a hot dog
and what that crunches like? Do you know what I mean?
Right it describes a character to like Sandy open the
bag of lace potato chips like, I mean, I think
(19:34):
right now, totally that knows I'm auditioning. By the way
he knows I'm audition now. I'm just kidda, have we
gone there yet? In the industry, to really think about
about this is like another step in seeing immersive storytelling.
I love this so much. I mean, the head blone
(19:54):
emoji is an apt example, and I'm so excited that
you guys are seeing this. I think, you know, we're
just scrapped in the surface in terms of what's possible.
I love that you talked about retention, Laura second ago.
I was looking at q codes numbers UH the other
day and I realized we have a nearly completion rate
for our shows. That means that a listener, once they
start listening through, they listen all the way to the end.
(20:16):
So you know, in podcasting there's typically add spots free
miden post role. Your listeners, of course will be familiar
with this UM, but I think that that's a real
opportunity for brands to get their message involved in different
parts of the traditional ad UH podcast advertising inventory Q
codes done a variety of things so far. We've had
some amazing brand partners across our shows, including so nos
(20:38):
and uh you know Dipsy was a sponsor on A
Dirty Diana, which is a female rotica show. UM. We've
also done some creative things with brands around how their
message can integrate into the world of the characters. And
I think we're just scratching the surface. Let's scratch that
for a second. If we're really thinking about the tangible
value exchange of what audio provides, this intimacy of forty
(21:00):
minutes of immersive storytelling, what is the dream ad bottle? Well, look,
I think that there's tons of opportunities depending on what
brands are interested in. Their traditional ad spots still make
a lot of sense in those pre mid and post
role I'll give you an example with The Unwanted, which
I mentioned before. It's an eighties action comedy. The premises
(21:20):
of these two slackers UM track down an escape conduct
to get a million dollar reward, and this person is,
you know, their way out of their league, all right? Uh.
With this show, we developed a whole series of ads
from mac Weldon that sort of teased and made fun
of the characters and how they you know, they're so
incompetent that they probably also wear bad underwear and they
(21:42):
should be instead of wearing mac Weldon. It's a great series,
you gotta give it a listen. But the the opportunity
to get further involved in our stories is really exciting.
And one of the things I would say about scripted
fiction is this is the known quantity. So if you're
a brand who wants to get your message in podcast,
but you worry about how you know, you don't want
to necessarily go full programmatic advertising, and you also are
(22:04):
a little unsure about having your ad read by by talent,
you know, prescripted fiction gives you an opportunity to craft
a message around your brand and perhaps even integrated in
the story. You can imagine how our two characters in
that story might have been making their plans to hunt
down that escape convict while playing PlayStation or eating dominoes
or you know what have you there's so many opportunities
(22:26):
I think for brands to actually be creative, how fun
with the audience, and and do things like branded content
or product placement, but in a way that don't feel overly,
you know, like they're taking away from the story. I
think is really a fun thing that we want to
see and explore. Mark you could. I think that's exciting.
I also think that you know, podcasting, since it started
(22:47):
or since it started really taking off, let's say with advertising,
like the pre role mid roles that you're talking about,
that it has been a huge driver for acquisition, right.
So you know, if you ask any DTC brand, they
will say, yeah, we put a ton of money into podcasting.
(23:09):
And I think now with audio we have an opportunity
to not only really seamlessly combined story and programming and
character and narrative and all of these things, but also
really more performance marketing. So is that something you think
is a place for real innovation in the kind of
(23:30):
marketing space. Yeah. Absolutely. There there's a ton of great
startup companies out there trying to do more things around
measurement attribution. You know, Charitable is one great outlet who
has really taken the lead and to help in that
data died of of Podcast Measurement UM and I think
you're right though, that's that the direct response advertisers and
(23:51):
brands have seen a huge return in podcast so huge
as more brands that don't quite fit into the direct
response model come on board, I think some of data
will certainly help, uh, you know, people understand how their
messages performing in podcasts, but also an opportunity to create
audio identity. What have you seen in the podcast space
(24:12):
in terms of innovation as it relates to audio identity
on behalf of Brands. I gotta tell you guys about
Hank the Cow Dog, which is a kid show starring
Matthew McConaughey. Hank the Cow Dog was a beloved kids
book series UM out of Texas and for that show,
q Code work with grocery chain h g B. Are
(24:32):
you guys from h g B? Yes, So with h
g B, q Code actually created an original jingle and
song that played in Hank the Cow Dog. The recall
and you know, memory of that jingle was so great.
We were getting emails and even in our ratings and
reviews on Apple Podcast, people were crediting HB with being
(24:53):
a co producer of the actual podcast itself, and teachers
and parents were writing to say that their kids kept
singing the song over and over again. And q code
is really investing in found in audio and music, uh
you know, in our shows themselves, but also with our
brand partners. Our head of music, Darren is an incredible guy.
(25:13):
I gotta just, uh, you know, pump him up for
a second. Darren is a classically trained pianist. He was
touring with Paula Abduel when he was discovered by Miles
Davis and toured with him a couple of times, uh
you know, early in his career. Darren leads music and
sound design at que Code and his work has also
gone into the messages that we put together for our
(25:34):
brand partners. Do you think brands understand this space yet, Steve,
It's a hard question to answer, you know. It's he
was a very a bit by agency you talked to
or by brand themselves, and sometimes it's a very personal thing.
If that person at the brand is podcast fan and listener,
that they're pretty familiar. It's increasing over time, but I think, yeah,
(25:57):
what we're seeing right now and podcast is how this
medium is going mainstream more than ever, Apple had a
major announcement around Apple podcast subscriptions. Spotify is doing incredible work.
Facebook has been making announcements. We're just going to bring
that up. That was literally our next question, So let's
go there. So Apple makes the announcement they're gonna do
(26:18):
subscriptions for any podcaster that wants to come on to
Apple podcasts, and they will split the revenue with them,
and they will give them the technology, etcetera, etcetera. Q
Code was a partner in this, and I'm sure you've
been now really on both sides of this, right obviously
before you left Apple and now on the partner side
(26:39):
with q code. What are your what are your thoughts
on this? This move by Apple by Spotify is actually controversial.
A lot of folks are actually saying on the creator side,
on the media side, on the VC side, that this
could hold back the creator economy, and it's actually getting
mixed reviews. So in your mind, does this makes sense?
(27:01):
Is this a good thing for the everyday podcaster? And
more than that, is it actually a good thing for
the droves of people who are really starting to get
into the creator economy visa v audio and podcasting. Yeah, Well, overall,
I think it's exciting to see a big investment from
Apple in monetization for podcasts. You know, the company has
(27:22):
been involved in the medium since pretty much the very beginning,
but hasn't offered direct revenue tools or the ecosystem around
things like hosting and so this is a pretty major
update to the industry overall. Uh, certainly, I think, you know,
offering a diversity of tools for monetization, it's really powerful.
There's been really a lot of success out there, growing,
(27:45):
i should say, around other forms of modestation beyond advertising,
including Patreon and patronage in general. Uh, you know, even
merchant touring. We're really growing a lot, especially pre covid.
But I think you know, have a first party monetization
tool from the world's biggest podcast distribution platform is significant.
(28:07):
Where creator being able to be paid as as simple
as one tap or face idea way, and the number
of credit cards that Apple has in file is incredible.
Now for your average podcaster, I think, you know, you'll
probably likely see a variety of different models continue, you know,
with with Apple podcast subscription, by the way, the content
isn't exclusive, nor do you um, you know, have to
(28:30):
stop doing everything and put everything behind a pay Well,
there's a freemium model that you can take part in.
That's what q code is going to do. Can we
pause just for a second because I want to make
sure if our listeners haven't heard about the update, can
you just give us Steve the thirty second on what
the actual offer is from Apple, just to put into context. Sure, absolutely, yes.
(28:52):
So Apple announced Apple Podcast Subscriptions, which is uh the
ability for publishers to offer paid subscriptions around their content.
And they can do that by offering an individual subscription
on a show or a group of shows, which they
call a channel, and with that subscription offering, they will
split revenue with the creator going to the creator in
(29:17):
the first year and then it goes to you know,
with Apple keeping the first year and then after the
first year, I would go to fifteen percent in subsequent years. Um,
this content isn't exclusive, and so you could offer a
subscription on Apple Podcast but then also distribute your content elsewhere.
And does Apple have any ownership rights of the content? No.
(29:40):
The best way to think about this is UH, the
App Store and how the app store has the seventy
split and enables creators and publishers and developers to make
their own offer but have that broad distribution. And so
Apple is really following their own playbook of the app
store and making those same feature set available for podcasters.
It's exciting to see them offer these tools, frankly to
(30:03):
all podcasters, and I think, you know, I would just
give them a lot of credit in terms of how
they thought about entering the market with this feature set,
which wouldn't be disruptive of the current rich ecosystem that
exists around advertising in podcast today. Well, it also seems
reflective of what we're seeing in the creator economy at
large right, everything from sub stack to stir, you know,
all of these back end systems that are allowing creators
(30:27):
to focus on their craft. I would say to this
revenue model offers q code the opportunity to expand creatively
as well. So all of our shows are going to
remain under We're gonna offer q code plus, and all
of our shows are going to remain publicly available. Wherever
you listen to podcasts under q code plus, subscriber will
(30:47):
get added value there. So those will include things like
behind the scenes conversations with the creators, you know a
little documentary series around the making of we can also
do creative things like alternate ending there, which we're really
excited to explore and figure out how you know, those
features and fiction might might be really positive. And we're
also thinking about our brand partners here as well, and
(31:11):
so what we're offering under Q Could Plus is we're
calling an uninterrupted listening experience. So for our brand partners
who want to be a part of the whole series,
no matter if the listeners on Q could Plus or not,
we'll we're going to figure out how to have that
show be able to be integrated. Maybe it's the pre
role and the post role, that brand partner's message in
(31:32):
the pre role the post role, but really what a
lot of fiction listeners really desire is for that story
not to be interrupted in the middle, and so we
can we can work with that and figure out great
ways to offer benefits to users under Q Could Plus,
but still ensure that our brand partners are integrated in
smart ways as well. What I love about what Apple
(31:53):
and Spotify is going to do um with this is
exactly what Laura said around the creed your economy, And
you know, I think that Apple created monetization uh, and
revenue opportunities for a technical group many years ago on
(32:13):
the app side. And this is indicative of this new
This is the wave of like the creative renaissance in
my opinion, and I don't think that's an overstatement. I
think that Apple making a move and saying that creators
and everyday people really coming to the table to create
(32:36):
whatever it is in audio should have the opportunity to
do so, and they don't need to be worried about
the technical side of it. And frankly, we're going to
give them an opportunity to monetize. And that begs a
question in my mind. Can what I'll call amateur right,
amateur creators and some of them are not amateur, but
(32:58):
let's just say right, they're not part of a major network.
Can amateur creators coexist with professional production companies in this
space and professional creators? Well, I think what's exciting about
podcasts is that they've actually done that for years. You know,
you think about the incredible creators that you know, oftentimes
(33:21):
don't get the same recognition in podcasts as maybe other mediums.
You know, these podcasters have a devoted following and have
been doing some of this stuff for a long time. So,
you know, as one example, i'vesite Dan Carlin and his
brilliant hardcore history if you know that show. You know
that show he releases usually one or two episodes a year.
(33:41):
As soon as he does, it goes to number one
of the charts. And he's been monetizing his show, uh
you know, individual episodes on his website. Um, I don't know,
you know, I haven't talked to Dan about what he
may be doing in the future around monetation with the
features we've been talking about today. But what I get
really excited about is he's already been successful in building
an audience in podcasting. His show comes out though regularly
(34:03):
that you know, it feels like he might really benefit
from these additional models and the ease with which people
can actually pay him for his his work through these tools.
And at q Code, I would say the same as true.
You know, we tend to make shows that are eight
to ten episodes in length, and candidly that's often too
uh you know, play out the story, but also the
(34:24):
reality that we need enough add inventory to support the
funding and the creation of the show. Now with Apple Podcasts,
subscriptions and our q Code plus offering we can more
easily create content that's shorter form. Maybe it's one episode
or three episodes, um and really that's the length that
the story should be told. In that content we can
(34:46):
monetize to our subscription rather than necessarily thinking about it
as something that has to be ad supported. Are there formats,
Steve that we haven't begun to explore or things that
have been teased out that are interesting? I think, you know,
you're talking about two episodes a year, you know, down
to like the science of eight to ten. But are
(35:07):
there these ideas that you're seeing people experiment with that
that might signal podcasting as we know it actually as
a whole new range of potential that creators are starting
to work within. I think there's so many different creative possibilities.
And as you were just mentioning that, Laura, I remember
to show that came out a few years ago from
(35:27):
Parents magazine. It was all about pregnancy and what to
expect in each week of pregnancy, and so they I
think produced you know, around I think it was like
thirty two episodes something like that, because most people don't
realize that they're pregnant for a little while, but each
episode covered a different week of the pregnancy experience. They
published them all at once, and they were available on
(35:49):
demand in a really evergreen matter. I think it's a
really clever way to think about, you know, podcasts, and
there might be a lot of other ideas out there
for different brands to present a complete package of content,
and the same way that you might think about authoring
a book or a video series that has a beginning, middle,
and end and you're able to publish that and talk
about that. I love that because it's thinking about the
(36:11):
format in and as much as the narrative, and combining
those things can yield at one plus one equals three,
you know effect. And I think we'd love to tell
stories in new ways and using more utility. As you
just mentioned, that's a really interesting example. Utility is a
great way to think about it. I'll give you one
other example and certainly an opportunity out there for travel
(36:32):
brands who might be listening. I've had so many trips
where I had intended to look up the best restaurants
or sites to visit at my destination ahead of my trip,
and the reality is it just ran out of time.
I went to Scotland, a couple of years ago, and
was felt like I was unprepared, And I remember thinking,
(36:54):
I wish there was just a podcast that I could
download that would give me my my tour guide, my
audio uh you know, visitors guide that would tell me
about the cool castles and restaurants and episodes on the
different cities I was going to visit and be able
to listen to that on my plane ride to Scotland. Um.
And so I just think there's so many different utility
kind of shows that could be made. As you mentioned, Laura,
(37:16):
travel is gonna it's a great example, it's gonna come
roaring back, and it's something that um, you know, airlines
especially should be thinking about their spaces and places and
audio filling kind of that travel experience is so exciting. Um.
So not just when you get somewhere. But I love
the idea, Steve of like as you go, just even
(37:39):
thinking about a podcasting channel specifically for in flight entertainment. Um,
there's a whole world of imagination there, Steve, can we
go into the Steve Wilson like vault for a second.
I feel like you are sitting on a decade worth
of insight and knowledge. People probably asking how do I
get on the top ten, or you know, what does
(37:59):
it take to be in the you know What's new
and next over the years would have been the Steve
Wilson s a queues for succeeding in podcasting. You know,
I think first and foremost and creating a great podcast,
you know, you do have to think about your audience.
You know this is going to come across as so basic,
(38:21):
but oftentimes when people create stories, they need to think
about what's in it for that listener at the end
of the journey. You know, what do you want a
listener to get out of it? And they need to
be sure to present that uh in their actual messaging
around the show. So many people just say hey, new
episode now available, you know, when they post on social
media around their their shows, but they don't tell the
(38:44):
full story of what their podcast is about and what
you want to a user to get out of it. Uh.
In terms of really reaching an audience and working with platforms,
I think, you know, reaching out the platforms you've got
to keep in mind as a pitch, and that's also
involves you know, telling your story to the platforms, what
you're doing, how you're building an audience, how you're leveraging
their platform and what what your vision is overall, because
(39:07):
I think when you pitch your story and that in
that compelling way, the platforms of course want to work
with the brightest, most innovative creators, and so they're going
to be compelled to want to feature your show and
help it grow on their platform. That's really the mutual
goal of any platform and publishers to help that constant
succeed on their platform. So I think really crafting your
(39:28):
message as as a pitch and how platforms can get
on board to support what you're already doing and how
you're already in motion is a really great way to
think about positioning yourself specifically for those platforms. Are there
things that you would say like must do to develop
audience and podcasting, well, really really quick to go back
to that audience need, I just think really considering what
(39:50):
that is and how how especially brands can interact with that. Uh,
there's so many fun opportunities, you know, I don't I
don't know if you have anybody who listens to your
from places like Sherman Williams are bear, but I've really
wanted to hear that podcast that always that talks about
color psychology. We all love thinking about colors, and we
know that really basic level of of of color psychology.
(40:13):
But even though this is an audio medium, I think
you can tell really fun and interesting stories around color
um and that might be something that would be perfect
for an expert like one of those companies I mentioned
to get involved in. So think about what an audience
might be interested in and how that might fit into
their life. You know, we're in the process of painting
our kitchen, and you know, there's some insights I can
glean from articles out there and websites. But I would
(40:34):
love to listen to that podcast, but I also have
some opportunities to go for a walk here and want
to learn a little bit more. So UM yeah, I
think thinking deeply about what an audience might want or
what even in kind of a you know, a pop psychology,
uh kind of level consumers are interested in. You know,
I uh spent a long time before working on the
podcast team and Apple in Apple's education division and helped
(40:57):
build iTunes You, which was an educational podcasting platform and
people all the time we're looking for the science of
superheroes and these intersections between learning and life in a
really compelling way that I think that's one opportunity that
brands really have is to to help educate people and
leverage the audio medium to fit better into their lives
(41:18):
while people might be on the go. Yes, I agree.
I think you basically content breaks down into two major buckets,
education and entertainment, and when you can combine the two,
it's exciting. It's a huge opportunity for brands. Real quick, Steve,
Social Audio, what's your take. Well, I think that there's
(41:39):
um a lot of different approaches going on right now,
which is really great. I've been really enjoying Clubhouse and
and it's been exciting to see and chat with you
guys there. You know, I think part of what's happening
right now reminds me a little bit of the live
streaming apps from a few years ago, Periscope and mere
Cat and those sorts of things. But uh, a little
(42:02):
bit uh, a little bit easier to fit into people's lives.
You don't have to get on camera, uh and make
sure you you look great. It's much more open to
everyone participating and actually empowers what people are saying and
their words and their speech rather than what they look
like and where they are and the things in the
background there. So I'm really excited about the ability to
(42:25):
connect over social audio apps in that way. UM, there's
a whole other bucket of experimentation happening around, you know,
taking longer form audio and making it more digestible in
a social context and in that in that space, there's
a lot of different ways you know, audio can fit in,
whether that's a more native experience, uh still on demand
(42:46):
on the social platforms, um, but really lending itself to
that greater discovery ability and ways in which you know,
when we want to learn about a new HBO or
Netflix series, there's oftentimes great short video that helps market
that program. Those are the kinds of things we're investing
in q CO to help people get into our series
with the understanding that they're they're longer, a longer, more scripted,
(43:09):
immersive experience that we want them to go and participate in.
What are you listening to right now, Steve oh Man, UM,
variety of things. So I'm listening to All Fantasy Everything,
which is a show created by Ian Carmel. He's a
writer for James Cordon, but it's a few comedians who
Fantasy Draft here I'm doing air quotes for your for
your listeners, uh favorite topics, whether that's best food or
(43:32):
vacation activities. They sort of go in and around and
talk about their their favorite picks within those topics. It's
a really fun listen. UM. Also really enjoying um uh
Life of Leon from Lauren Shippin and her team over there.
It's a great scripted fiction show. We want to shot
them out as well. All right, we'll have to download
(43:52):
those and check them out. Steve before we get into
our final game. What is your critique of Atlantia? What
can we be doing better? What about our new show?
Are I've even seen it? You guys, no, I have
you know? Let me take a look at it here,
let you pull it up. I mean, look, I love it.
I love the styled type treatment that you have here.
(44:13):
That feels like that greeting card, um and and a
place where we all exist here talking about brands and advertising.
I don't really have a lot of criticisms here to
I mean, you know, out of ten, what are we
getting out of ten? I would say nine point to five?
Is that all right? Room for improvement? I like that.
I love your I love your description and I love
(44:35):
your episode titles as well. Here guys, you're getting guests
for nailing it. Set in sign of approval, Steve, bye
bye bye. What would you stay goodbye to? What would
you purchase? And what would you do yourself? Okay, so
for keeping this in the podcast industry, I would stay
goodbye to? Uh calling podcasting the wild Wild West or
(44:59):
discoveries brooken. I think that these phrases are often repeated
in podcasts, but as the medium continues to grow, we
have a lot of great solutions that make podcast more
and more mainstream. So get rid of those phrases. Let's
cut them out. There a trope, no more wild Wild
West of podcasting. We've gone mainstream. We've got mainstream. We've
gone mainstream. What would you buy? I would buy adamentory
(45:23):
in podcast? What would you do yourself? What would I
do myself? I think that there's a huge opportunity in
kids content. You know, if you think about the amount
of time that parents and kids uh been together in
the car and maybe hopefully soon will again. There are
a lot of podcasts that aren't they have to listen
to with your kids and family. But there's so many
(45:45):
places in which you know, kids could be enjoying audio
more and particularly as parents think about, you know, the
amount of screen time they want their kids to engage
with apps and entertainment, it's a it's a constant struggle.
There's an opportunity on kids content that could be educational
and informative but allow allow kids to color or build blocks.
(46:08):
You know. That's something that my kids really love to do,
is listening to a podcast and coloring what they're hearing
and learning about at the same time. So I'd really
invest a lot more in kids media and audio. If
you can get my kid listening to a podcast, I
would be thrilled. My kid your kids, She's five and
she is like she she laughs at it. She's like,
(46:30):
turned this off. But I agree. I think it's a
it's a huge opportunity. Yeah, there's some great kids shows
out there. While in the World is a big family
favorite with Guy ros and uh It's it's it's something
to definitely check out with the kids, Steve. If people
want to get in touch with you to evaluate their
(46:50):
cover art, but more importantly do business with q code,
how can they get in touch with you? Yeah, you
could look me up on Twitter at Stephen Wilson on
Twitter Stephen with pH or go to q code media
dot com. Steve, this has been awesome. Look, I'm new
to actually be able to appear on podcast guys in
my new role. So um, I'm excited to be Really,
(47:11):
you're like, this is my first podcast guesting experience. Really,
Oh that's awesome. Let's turn the tables here. How did
I do as a guest on your podcast? You were great.
Here's what I would say, you have to come back.
We're gonna make Steve Wilson a recurring character. I'd be
honored that, I would say, I'd be honored to collaborate.
(47:32):
You know, your your listeners won't have seen this, but
Alexa Lendon and winked here and so Ryan and I,
you know, thinking about the sort of sound design and
audio you know, that kind of audio drama effect that
you could get here. I'd be so happy to be
with you guys again. Steve, thank you so so much
for being your first podcast. Congrats on your new role
(47:54):
to strategy officer at q code, and thank you for
always being a vocal support order of us. Uh it
meant a lot and you helped us so much get started.
So yes, thank you, big hat tip to you. Well,
thank you guys. Wonderful to be with you and next again,
that was a long time coming. It was great to
(48:14):
have Steve on the show. Thank you Steve for not
only being like true kind of early supporters of us
and at Landia, but also just being a great friend
where we could call and say what's happening and what's
next and get your thoughts on it. To this conversation
and all the things that have been happening in the
audio and podcast acquisition space. Spotify just announced that they
(48:37):
acquired another huge show, Armchair Expert. By the way, Monica Padman,
who's the co host of Armchair Expert, is coming on
the show. Big congrats to her and Deck Shepherd on
that acquisition. There's so much going on in this space
and it got me thinking. And there's a lot of
conversation in Twitter verse around this as well, from sub
stack to audio. But institutional verse this creator and can
(49:02):
they kind of coexist? And when I say institutional, I'm
talking about big, mature, established companies like Spotify, Like can Spotify,
you know, acquire these giant shows as well as sponsor
or create a community for creators or are they at
odds inherently, and I actually am in the camp and
(49:22):
a big believer that they can exist, and so there
is a world where kind of bigger, mature company can
actually exist and in fact maybe even continue to help
grow the creator economy and the individual contributor. So I'm
a big fan of what's happening in the audio space
for this, and I think it's looked at less so
(49:44):
right now, um, but definitely more to come as Apple
and Spotify get into the creator space. But I think
it's a great setup in thinking about the use case
of audio and how the barrier of entry into audio
is so low, the costs to do it, the time
to do it, the accessibility to do it in comparison
to the production of other types of media, to be
(50:07):
able to put ideas out in the world and see
what sticks. And I think so there's a great point
Laura around testing in audio. I think right now brands
can still and there are very few places brands can
do this in my opinion, branch to not just be
doing advertising and pre roll spots in your standard placement.
(50:28):
They should be really going into deeper partnerships and exploring
how does that brand express in different genres. How does
that brand express in fictional scripted work, How does that
brand kind of add to the layer of this kind
of creative space where they really don't have a lot
(50:49):
to lose, they have a lot of community potentially to
reach and to gain. So I'm bullish on you know,
more experimentation that's outside of standard average hizing. I couldn't
agree Morelos and I think we are really at an
interesting point where we need to push on format, form, factor, monetization,
(51:09):
use case, all of the things. This medium allows us
to have a wide ranging testing ground to do all
of it. And so excited to see what Steve does
at que Code. So much happening there, and thanks again
to Steve for joining us for a really insightful conversation.
Thanks Steve. Laura hit it with the list of all
of our friends and family I heart who have been
(51:31):
so good to us and helped us get back on air.
Big thank you to Bob Connal, Carter, Andy, Eric gayle Val,
Michael jen We appreciate you. Thank you so much for
this opportunity. We'll see you in two weeks.
I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are
going to have to start making better content. I think
we're gonna be talking about this for a long time.
When you program for everyone, you program for no one.
I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're
trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you
happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It
really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currentti and I'm Alexa Kristen.
(00:27):
Welcome back at Landia. We've got a great show, an
old friend Steve Wilson coming on to talk all things
podcasting and audio, and speaking of that, I be upfronts
for last week. So many new shows announced, really fascinating stats,
though not surprising. The podcast space projected to bring in
(00:47):
a billion dollars this year, expected to double in the
next two years. So why the space is certainly showing
no signs of slowing down. I think, Alexa, what we're
going to get into a bit with Steve is the
in a vation side of audio and podcasting and not
just looking at it as a place to integrate, you know,
pre roles, mid roles, post roles, but really thinking about
(01:10):
form factors, new I P development, et cetera. I think
the audio and podcasting has not reached its full potential,
not even close yet. And so when the IB comes
out and says we're a billion dollar industry now, that's
just scratching the surface. And really to really focus on
advertising dollars, kind of traditional advertising dollars. What you and
(01:34):
I have been talking about is where's the opportunity where
we could be expanding what all they is the definition
of podcasting and audio. The idea that creators could be
using the platform live to create and collaborate is so exciting.
So actually create the art, create the content live with
(01:55):
other participants. There's so many opportunities with that. The other thing,
and I think that is really exciting is this idea
of you know, the traditional episodic series or even an
author like Malcolm Gladwell getting on the mic and writing live.
Really taking the spoken word to the next level. When
(02:15):
you start thinking of that and you start thinking of
social audio platforms and audio platforms as places to express
the spoken word, all of a sudden, the ideas kind
of our endless, these ideas of characters being created that
maybe only live in audio, and all of a sudden,
have created this whole new sound experience that you're frankly
(02:39):
walking people through and something that they could potentially participate in.
I think we just haven't gotten there in terms of
figuring out what audio is going to feel like, what
this kind of immersive audio experience are going to feel like.
And at this point, Skuy's the limit to the point
where we could be reinventing what meetings feel like. We
(03:01):
could be reinventing in terms of how we bring new
ideas to the table, not just in a power point,
but spoken words storytelling, bringing in collaborators to bring something
to life. Yeah, there's so many provocative thoughts in that.
This has me thinking about the Bomber Mafia, the new
audio book from Malcolm Gladwell and Pushkin that comes with
(03:23):
a downloadable PDF that helps to provide just enough additional
context to get up to speed. So I think this
mashup of mediums and finding new use cases for the space. Um,
as you said, we're just beginning to scratch the surface
of new and innovative ways to bring storytelling to life.
(03:44):
I couldn't agree more. And I love the Bomber Mafia example.
It got me thinking so much about what is the
future of book publishing, what's the future of authorship in
a text format that now can be translated into an
audio world. And I think we both encourage our listeners
(04:04):
to download Bomber Mafia. It is impressive. It is it
is theater. It is theater, and also look into the future.
And with that, Steve Wilson, we'll be right back and
(04:27):
we're back on the mic with longtime friend podcast extraordinaire
Steve Wilson. Hey guys, happy to be with you. Steve Wilson,
the chief strategy officer of q Code. Steve, We go back.
This episode is years in the making. I think we
(04:50):
were saying what physically we met in at the Soho
Apple Store Malcolm Gladwell was doing his finale right of
revisionist history. Yeah, you're a big fan of the message
that we created a g e and you were this
(05:10):
kind of amazing supporter and um, we just think a
friendship started from there. It's been incredible and certainly long
time in the making. Thanks for having me, guys. I
remember the first time, yeah, meeting you guys in person
was in New York kind of after an event at
the Apple Store and Soho. Um, you know Apple had
done an event for Malcolm Gladwell's for Business History podcast.
(05:32):
I had worked when I was an Apple on the Message, Um,
which you guys did such a brilliant job of with Panoply,
and so I don't know during that campaign if we
worked as much directly together or both just kind of
via Panoply, but knew of knew of you guys your
amazing work. And uh, I think I think the rest
is history, UM, and I think I would I should say,
(05:52):
you guys have a ton to do with what I'm
doing now, like you code, I think the Message and
what you guys did there, which was so innovative, it
was one of the shows that really made me pay
attention to scripted fiction, along with Limetown. Uh. And you
know the work of Paul Bay and Lauren Shipping, Fred
Greenhalge and there's a number of amazing creators out there
(06:12):
who are doing scripted fiction. And you know, I really
felt like, you know, it's a little weird that podcasts
have so much fantastic narrative nonfiction, but yet with fiction
being such a huge um component of what we all
consume in media, it's a bit unrepresented in podcasts. So Anyway,
all that to say, I really credit you guys a
(06:34):
lot with studying me on the on the journey towards
where I ended up at you could that's amazing, Thanks Steve.
Thanks Steve. So you were at Apple for fifteen years.
And it's funny when anyone talked about or talked about
Apple podcasts, they would say, Steve Wilson, do you know
I mean you were like synonymous, right, I don't know
(06:55):
if you know this, maybe you do, but like you're
synonymous some things. Yeah, there's a big team over there.
A lot of people deserve credit for for podcast at Apple,
and and I've been in it for a very long time,
but it's happy to be a part of that team. Absolutely, Steve.
When you think about the last fifteen years, but namely
the last five to six really Sincereal broke through, what
(07:16):
have been the big signals you've seen that indicate, you know,
just the massive amount of growth this particular industry has seen. Yeah, well,
I think it's incredible where we're at today. You know,
podcast have gone through a number of different eras. I
think you could say, and and you're right, you know,
certainly Sereal And I would also credit Gimblet and what
(07:37):
they do is start Up being a really special inflection point. Uh.
Fun uh sort of history. Those two podcasts came out
the same month alongside of Apple making podcast preinstalled on
every shipping iOS device in October. So together you got
this breakout global number one hit. You got Startup telling
(07:59):
the business story of podcasts um and you know the
amazing company that became Gimlet, and Apple's at making easier
than ever for someone to one tap listen to a show.
So I think there was this sort of lightning in
the bottom moment that I think there's gonna be or
should be case studies on on all of that and
how it's grown. But since that time, you know, yeah,
there's now over two million podcasts and Apple podcasts and Spotify.
(08:22):
The contents incredible, and I think we've seen this great
virtuous circle of audience which has led to more revenue
and podcasts, which is led to greater publisher investment and
creator investment. Uh. And it's been this fly wheel that's
really created the growth that we're saying today. And you know,
if you go back, it's kind of funny. You'd hear
people ask questions like do you listen to podcasts, you know,
(08:44):
which is such a funny question. You'd never say, do
you do you read books? Do you watch movies? But
somehow that was a really normal question to ask back
in Seen. But I think we're now at a place
where podcasts a mainstream. There's so much great content to
listen to. And yeah, I don't think it's I don't
think we've seen sort of a you know, too much
(09:05):
too many shows. Right, we were not sitting back thinking,
you know, why bother create a new movie or create
a create a write a book. Right, there's so much
room for innovation and new stories to be told in podcasting.
You talked about fictional you storytelling and q code is
narrative audio production. You guys are focusing a lot on
(09:29):
fictional storytelling. And when we started, the message fictional storytelling
was like very rare, very rare, like really going back
to like almost you know, radio theater of like the thirties,
and there wasn't kind of this reboot of that. What
are you doing at q code that you're putting a
(09:50):
lot of effort into fictional storytelling? Like what's the future there? Yeah?
I think you know, que code we really think of
ourselves as a storytelling company first and foremost, and we
do specialize in scripted fiction. So you know, the company
was started by Rob Herding, who was a longtime agent
UM and he really saw an opportunity to tell new
kinds of stories. You know, Hollywood can be a bit
(10:12):
risk adversed for a variety of reasons, and in an
audio you have a really amazing opportunity to combine an
incredible story with amazing talent and really be innovative on
the technical side. And those are those are some of
the things that he cold is really focused on. So
I think, you know, as we're looking to the future
of of narrative audio, we're thinking a lot about how
(10:34):
we can tell stories in ways that people haven't before,
you know. And I love the comparison to you know,
old time radio. I think it's a really apt one.
There's been some incredible creators. There's an amazing community around
audio drama UM like our slash Audio Drama and read
it has a hundred thousand people who love and are
making this kind of content. And I think you could
(10:54):
is really excited just to be a part of that
community making things that you know, we'll delight people and
in different kinds of ways. Side note, our producer Ryan
is a fictional well he does everything, but he created
the Angel of Vine. He's like, head not he wants
to get in on this conversation. He's like a yeah, Bryan,
just granpa mind. Yeah, I don't want to hijack the conversation,
(11:19):
but I love hearing all about it. But I think
it's It's funny because when we met Ryan and he
started talking to us about this particular side of podcasting,
one of the things that we kind of geeked out
on was that it is still really nascent. It is
actually hard to create great fictional audio. Why do you
(11:41):
think it is such an untapped genre. I'd love to
hear what Steve thinks. First and foremost. I was waiting
for Ryan, Um, yeah, please go for it. I think
that the barriers to entry are low when it comes
to fiction, but I think that also creates a certain
amount of folks that are just figuring out the kinks
in working out their voices. Storytellers, and there's a lot
(12:03):
that goes into a production, especially when you start involving
celebrity talent and the expectations that come with that from
a storytelling perspective where folks don't realize just how much
goes into the musicality of having to create for one sense,
if you will, like things stick out like a sore
thumb from a storytelling perspective when all you have is
(12:24):
your ears. And that's the thing I think people miss,
is that, just the ability to create immersive story without
overdoing it. On the audio, I think that's right. You know,
there's some incredible audio fiction out there that you know,
sometimes feels like it could be you know, um simplified.
(12:44):
Sometimes people try to do too much in the audio,
and you know, I think that there's an opportunity to
really think about you know, things like sound effects and
dialogue and that's tricky too, like in a new way
that don't feel like, you know, it's relying on things
like a narrator. So totally could could have some of
those shows that, um, you know, have a narrator voice.
(13:06):
So there's a I guess what i'd call a conceit
for why this conversation is being recorded. But there's other ones.
And we're moving to shows that have sort of a
whole fly on the wall perspective, like Unwanted, which is
a eighties action comedy. Uh, starting with More and Morris,
you're just sort of a you know, a presence in
that room, listening to the main character sort of joke
(13:27):
around and laugh and experience the world as they go
through that series. Let's click and for a second on
less so genre more so, what makes podcasting successful, Steve,
You've had an up close and personal look at the
full range of work that has been in the market
over the last decade. What are the core or staple
(13:48):
ingredients that you have seen time and time again resonate
with audiences that keep it, you know, top of mind
for its listeners and maybe even on the top charts. Yeah.
I think that this is a overused expression, but it's
so true, you know. I think podcasts have to offer
a real strong benefit to a listener. And those things
(14:08):
are the you know, entertain, inform and inspire, you know
which which feels so often said, but but in podcasts
is so true, right you have to think about how
and and one of the exciting things in podcasts is
that this is a medium that fits into a different
modality in people's lives oftentimes, right, So, um, and I
think for marketers and advertisers out there something to consider
(14:28):
as well. There's so many things competing for our visual attention,
right you know, TikTok is competing with snapchat, as competing
with YouTube, competing with Netflix, any other video that's out
there in the world, or any app that's out there
in the world. Oftentimes, podcast listening fits into a time
when we're on our commute, or we're working out, or
we're being intentional about taking a walk and being uh,
(14:50):
screen free. And so I think they really have provided
this good, um, good and positive escape for people as
there going about their daily lives. And I think that
is an area in which you want to have a
really high value experience, if you will, with the content
you're consuming. So it's got to be really entertaining or
(15:10):
really informative. The content's got to make the most use
of that time that you're allotting it because oftentimes podcasts
are a little longer than other mediums, twenty to forty
minutes or beyond, and uh, you know, really engaging personalities, right,
whether that's a chat show or interview or someone who
can really hold an audience but bring that sense of
(15:31):
community into someone's ears. And and oftentimes you know, the
word intimacy is used in relation to podcasting because it
becomes such a a personal experience that you have with
the person that you're listening to, oftentimes hours per week.
I think a lot of the return um that we see,
especially from an advertising perspective, would indicate that, yeah, this
(15:52):
is a medium that is uninterrupted or largely uninterrupted in
terms of you know, things like recall. There's other elements
like cover. You know, at one point, I feel like
you had a whole side gig on critiquing cover art
and people were like tweeting you work in progress designs
to get your feedback, Um, what are those additives that
(16:12):
really round out or allow a show to break through
in such a cluttered environment, and particularly some of the genres,
there's just so much What are those maybe secret ingredients
that you might recommend people really think twice about. Yeah, well,
even though this is an audio medium, visual design of
course still matters. And I think, you know, is how
(16:34):
people are going to find your show and get insight
into what it's all about. And so you know that
starts with the artwork that you put up on the
platforms Apple Podcasts, Spotify and everywhere else to provide Uh,
potential listeners with a sense for what your show is
going to be about, and I think take people further
into the world. So as we think about scripted fiction
(16:55):
at q CODE, we're trying to always strike that balance
in our visual design of providing enough information about the
world while also leaving a lot of room for the
listeners imagination, because that's really fun aspect of what we're doing.
You know, the listener can he you know, think about
what that character looks like in their own way. Um
So I think that kind of visual design is really important.
(17:17):
And then of course all the other elements of your
product packaging, which are your metadata, your titles, your descriptions,
all of that really matters. And as you think about
this as a digital product alongside of anything else out
there that it's competing for people's attention, I should say,
you know, podcast sort of packaging really makes a difference
in terms of how a consumer might resonate with your show.
I love that you're calling a podcast a product. I
(17:41):
think that's how we've always thought about it. It's really
important for brands and marketers to start thinking about podcasting,
original content, audio and podcasting as a product. So Malcolm
Gladwell just launched his first designed for audio book, Bomber Aafia,
and the Wall Street Journal was covering the launch and
(18:04):
something that he said that I think is so right
on and is going to lead us to think about
podcasting and audio storytelling in a very different way. He said,
we think with our eyes and feel with our ears.
Audio is actually a visual medium if done right, And
so if you think about it like this, like brands
(18:25):
could be using audio to describe something visually or to
create an experience. Is a different word for visual imagination
because I just had the head exploding emoji as you
said that, right, Because like when I think of like
visual medium in the same way we engage with books,
you know, Steve said the word I want to imagine
(18:48):
the world that you're bringing me into, and my experience
or world is going to be different from your, Seve,
different from yours, Alexa. And isn't that then what makes
this such a person intimate medium. So Alex says, as
you said that, I was like, well, that's right, And Laura,
I mean, like think about the opportunity and audio to
actually be more linear about what I'm trying to show you,
(19:11):
what I'm trying to tell you or the experience I
actually want you to have. Let me walk you through.
What when you open the lace potato chips in the
middle of the summer and you're eating a hot dog
and what that crunches like? Do you know what I mean?
Right it describes a character to like Sandy open the
bag of lace potato chips like, I mean, I think
(19:34):
right now, totally that knows I'm auditioning. By the way
he knows I'm audition now. I'm just kidda, have we
gone there yet? In the industry, to really think about
about this is like another step in seeing immersive storytelling.
I love this so much. I mean, the head blone
(19:54):
emoji is an apt example, and I'm so excited that
you guys are seeing this. I think, you know, we're
just scrapped in the surface in terms of what's possible.
I love that you talked about retention, Laura second ago.
I was looking at q codes numbers UH the other
day and I realized we have a nearly completion rate
for our shows. That means that a listener, once they
start listening through, they listen all the way to the end.
(20:16):
So you know, in podcasting there's typically add spots free
miden post role. Your listeners, of course will be familiar
with this UM, but I think that that's a real
opportunity for brands to get their message involved in different
parts of the traditional ad UH podcast advertising inventory Q
codes done a variety of things so far. We've had
some amazing brand partners across our shows, including so nos
(20:38):
and uh you know Dipsy was a sponsor on A
Dirty Diana, which is a female rotica show. UM. We've
also done some creative things with brands around how their
message can integrate into the world of the characters. And
I think we're just scratching the surface. Let's scratch that
for a second. If we're really thinking about the tangible
value exchange of what audio provides, this intimacy of forty
(21:00):
minutes of immersive storytelling, what is the dream ad bottle? Well, look,
I think that there's tons of opportunities depending on what
brands are interested in. Their traditional ad spots still make
a lot of sense in those pre mid and post
role I'll give you an example with The Unwanted, which
I mentioned before. It's an eighties action comedy. The premises
(21:20):
of these two slackers UM track down an escape conduct
to get a million dollar reward, and this person is,
you know, their way out of their league, all right? Uh.
With this show, we developed a whole series of ads
from mac Weldon that sort of teased and made fun
of the characters and how they you know, they're so
incompetent that they probably also wear bad underwear and they
(21:42):
should be instead of wearing mac Weldon. It's a great series,
you gotta give it a listen. But the the opportunity
to get further involved in our stories is really exciting.
And one of the things I would say about scripted
fiction is this is the known quantity. So if you're
a brand who wants to get your message in podcast,
but you worry about how you know, you don't want
to necessarily go full programmatic advertising, and you also are
(22:04):
a little unsure about having your ad read by by talent,
you know, prescripted fiction gives you an opportunity to craft
a message around your brand and perhaps even integrated in
the story. You can imagine how our two characters in
that story might have been making their plans to hunt
down that escape convict while playing PlayStation or eating dominoes
or you know what have you there's so many opportunities
(22:26):
I think for brands to actually be creative, how fun
with the audience, and and do things like branded content
or product placement, but in a way that don't feel overly,
you know, like they're taking away from the story. I
think is really a fun thing that we want to
see and explore. Mark you could. I think that's exciting.
I also think that you know, podcasting, since it started
(22:47):
or since it started really taking off, let's say with advertising,
like the pre role mid roles that you're talking about,
that it has been a huge driver for acquisition, right.
So you know, if you ask any DTC brand, they
will say, yeah, we put a ton of money into podcasting.
(23:09):
And I think now with audio we have an opportunity
to not only really seamlessly combined story and programming and
character and narrative and all of these things, but also
really more performance marketing. So is that something you think
is a place for real innovation in the kind of
(23:30):
marketing space. Yeah. Absolutely. There there's a ton of great
startup companies out there trying to do more things around
measurement attribution. You know, Charitable is one great outlet who
has really taken the lead and to help in that
data died of of Podcast Measurement UM and I think
you're right though, that's that the direct response advertisers and
(23:51):
brands have seen a huge return in podcast so huge
as more brands that don't quite fit into the direct
response model come on board, I think some of data
will certainly help, uh, you know, people understand how their
messages performing in podcasts, but also an opportunity to create
audio identity. What have you seen in the podcast space
(24:12):
in terms of innovation as it relates to audio identity
on behalf of Brands. I gotta tell you guys about
Hank the Cow Dog, which is a kid show starring
Matthew McConaughey. Hank the Cow Dog was a beloved kids
book series UM out of Texas and for that show,
q Code work with grocery chain h g B. Are
(24:32):
you guys from h g B? Yes, So with h
g B, q Code actually created an original jingle and
song that played in Hank the Cow Dog. The recall
and you know, memory of that jingle was so great.
We were getting emails and even in our ratings and
reviews on Apple Podcast, people were crediting HB with being
(24:53):
a co producer of the actual podcast itself, and teachers
and parents were writing to say that their kids kept
singing the song over and over again. And q code
is really investing in found in audio and music, uh
you know, in our shows themselves, but also with our
brand partners. Our head of music, Darren is an incredible guy.
(25:13):
I gotta just, uh, you know, pump him up for
a second. Darren is a classically trained pianist. He was
touring with Paula Abduel when he was discovered by Miles
Davis and toured with him a couple of times, uh
you know, early in his career. Darren leads music and
sound design at que Code and his work has also
gone into the messages that we put together for our
(25:34):
brand partners. Do you think brands understand this space yet, Steve,
It's a hard question to answer, you know. It's he
was a very a bit by agency you talked to
or by brand themselves, and sometimes it's a very personal thing.
If that person at the brand is podcast fan and listener,
that they're pretty familiar. It's increasing over time, but I think, yeah,
(25:57):
what we're seeing right now and podcast is how this
medium is going mainstream more than ever, Apple had a
major announcement around Apple podcast subscriptions. Spotify is doing incredible work.
Facebook has been making announcements. We're just going to bring
that up. That was literally our next question, So let's
go there. So Apple makes the announcement they're gonna do
(26:18):
subscriptions for any podcaster that wants to come on to
Apple podcasts, and they will split the revenue with them,
and they will give them the technology, etcetera, etcetera. Q
Code was a partner in this, and I'm sure you've
been now really on both sides of this, right obviously
before you left Apple and now on the partner side
(26:39):
with q code. What are your what are your thoughts
on this? This move by Apple by Spotify is actually controversial.
A lot of folks are actually saying on the creator side,
on the media side, on the VC side, that this
could hold back the creator economy, and it's actually getting
mixed reviews. So in your mind, does this makes sense?
(27:01):
Is this a good thing for the everyday podcaster? And
more than that, is it actually a good thing for
the droves of people who are really starting to get
into the creator economy visa v audio and podcasting. Yeah, Well, overall,
I think it's exciting to see a big investment from
Apple in monetization for podcasts. You know, the company has
(27:22):
been involved in the medium since pretty much the very beginning,
but hasn't offered direct revenue tools or the ecosystem around
things like hosting and so this is a pretty major
update to the industry overall. Uh, certainly, I think, you know,
offering a diversity of tools for monetization, it's really powerful.
There's been really a lot of success out there, growing,
(27:45):
i should say, around other forms of modestation beyond advertising,
including Patreon and patronage in general. Uh, you know, even
merchant touring. We're really growing a lot, especially pre covid.
But I think you know, have a first party monetization
tool from the world's biggest podcast distribution platform is significant.
(28:07):
Where creator being able to be paid as as simple
as one tap or face idea way, and the number
of credit cards that Apple has in file is incredible.
Now for your average podcaster, I think, you know, you'll
probably likely see a variety of different models continue, you know,
with with Apple podcast subscription, by the way, the content
isn't exclusive, nor do you um, you know, have to
(28:30):
stop doing everything and put everything behind a pay Well,
there's a freemium model that you can take part in.
That's what q code is going to do. Can we
pause just for a second because I want to make
sure if our listeners haven't heard about the update, can
you just give us Steve the thirty second on what
the actual offer is from Apple, just to put into context. Sure, absolutely, yes.
(28:52):
So Apple announced Apple Podcast Subscriptions, which is uh the
ability for publishers to offer paid subscriptions around their content.
And they can do that by offering an individual subscription
on a show or a group of shows, which they
call a channel, and with that subscription offering, they will
split revenue with the creator going to the creator in
(29:17):
the first year and then it goes to you know,
with Apple keeping the first year and then after the
first year, I would go to fifteen percent in subsequent years. Um,
this content isn't exclusive, and so you could offer a
subscription on Apple Podcast but then also distribute your content elsewhere.
And does Apple have any ownership rights of the content? No.
(29:40):
The best way to think about this is UH, the
App Store and how the app store has the seventy
split and enables creators and publishers and developers to make
their own offer but have that broad distribution. And so
Apple is really following their own playbook of the app
store and making those same feature set available for podcasters.
It's exciting to see them offer these tools, frankly to
(30:03):
all podcasters, and I think, you know, I would just
give them a lot of credit in terms of how
they thought about entering the market with this feature set,
which wouldn't be disruptive of the current rich ecosystem that
exists around advertising in podcast today. Well, it also seems
reflective of what we're seeing in the creator economy at
large right, everything from sub stack to stir, you know,
all of these back end systems that are allowing creators
(30:27):
to focus on their craft. I would say to this
revenue model offers q code the opportunity to expand creatively
as well. So all of our shows are going to
remain under We're gonna offer q code plus, and all
of our shows are going to remain publicly available. Wherever
you listen to podcasts under q code plus, subscriber will
(30:47):
get added value there. So those will include things like
behind the scenes conversations with the creators, you know a
little documentary series around the making of we can also
do creative things like alternate ending there, which we're really
excited to explore and figure out how you know, those
features and fiction might might be really positive. And we're
also thinking about our brand partners here as well, and
(31:11):
so what we're offering under Q Could Plus is we're
calling an uninterrupted listening experience. So for our brand partners
who want to be a part of the whole series,
no matter if the listeners on Q could Plus or not,
we'll we're going to figure out how to have that
show be able to be integrated. Maybe it's the pre
role and the post role, that brand partner's message in
(31:32):
the pre role the post role, but really what a
lot of fiction listeners really desire is for that story
not to be interrupted in the middle, and so we
can we can work with that and figure out great
ways to offer benefits to users under Q Could Plus,
but still ensure that our brand partners are integrated in
smart ways as well. What I love about what Apple
(31:53):
and Spotify is going to do um with this is
exactly what Laura said around the creed your economy, And
you know, I think that Apple created monetization uh, and
revenue opportunities for a technical group many years ago on
(32:13):
the app side. And this is indicative of this new
This is the wave of like the creative renaissance in
my opinion, and I don't think that's an overstatement. I
think that Apple making a move and saying that creators
and everyday people really coming to the table to create
(32:36):
whatever it is in audio should have the opportunity to
do so, and they don't need to be worried about
the technical side of it. And frankly, we're going to
give them an opportunity to monetize. And that begs a
question in my mind. Can what I'll call amateur right,
amateur creators and some of them are not amateur, but
(32:58):
let's just say right, they're not part of a major network.
Can amateur creators coexist with professional production companies in this
space and professional creators? Well, I think what's exciting about
podcasts is that they've actually done that for years. You know,
you think about the incredible creators that you know, oftentimes
(33:21):
don't get the same recognition in podcasts as maybe other mediums.
You know, these podcasters have a devoted following and have
been doing some of this stuff for a long time. So,
you know, as one example, i'vesite Dan Carlin and his
brilliant hardcore history if you know that show. You know
that show he releases usually one or two episodes a year.
(33:41):
As soon as he does, it goes to number one
of the charts. And he's been monetizing his show, uh
you know, individual episodes on his website. Um, I don't know,
you know, I haven't talked to Dan about what he
may be doing in the future around monetation with the
features we've been talking about today. But what I get
really excited about is he's already been successful in building
an audience in podcasting. His show comes out though regularly
(34:03):
that you know, it feels like he might really benefit
from these additional models and the ease with which people
can actually pay him for his his work through these tools.
And at q Code, I would say the same as true.
You know, we tend to make shows that are eight
to ten episodes in length, and candidly that's often too
uh you know, play out the story, but also the
(34:24):
reality that we need enough add inventory to support the
funding and the creation of the show. Now with Apple Podcasts,
subscriptions and our q Code plus offering we can more
easily create content that's shorter form. Maybe it's one episode
or three episodes, um and really that's the length that
the story should be told. In that content we can
(34:46):
monetize to our subscription rather than necessarily thinking about it
as something that has to be ad supported. Are there formats,
Steve that we haven't begun to explore or things that
have been teased out that are interesting? I think, you know,
you're talking about two episodes a year, you know, down
to like the science of eight to ten. But are
(35:07):
there these ideas that you're seeing people experiment with that
that might signal podcasting as we know it actually as
a whole new range of potential that creators are starting
to work within. I think there's so many different creative possibilities.
And as you were just mentioning that, Laura, I remember
to show that came out a few years ago from
(35:27):
Parents magazine. It was all about pregnancy and what to
expect in each week of pregnancy, and so they I
think produced you know, around I think it was like
thirty two episodes something like that, because most people don't
realize that they're pregnant for a little while, but each
episode covered a different week of the pregnancy experience. They
published them all at once, and they were available on
(35:49):
demand in a really evergreen matter. I think it's a
really clever way to think about, you know, podcasts, and
there might be a lot of other ideas out there
for different brands to present a complete package of content,
and the same way that you might think about authoring
a book or a video series that has a beginning, middle,
and end and you're able to publish that and talk
about that. I love that because it's thinking about the
(36:11):
format in and as much as the narrative, and combining
those things can yield at one plus one equals three,
you know effect. And I think we'd love to tell
stories in new ways and using more utility. As you
just mentioned, that's a really interesting example. Utility is a
great way to think about it. I'll give you one
other example and certainly an opportunity out there for travel
(36:32):
brands who might be listening. I've had so many trips
where I had intended to look up the best restaurants
or sites to visit at my destination ahead of my trip,
and the reality is it just ran out of time.
I went to Scotland, a couple of years ago, and
was felt like I was unprepared, And I remember thinking,
(36:54):
I wish there was just a podcast that I could
download that would give me my my tour guide, my
audio uh you know, visitors guide that would tell me
about the cool castles and restaurants and episodes on the
different cities I was going to visit and be able
to listen to that on my plane ride to Scotland. Um.
And so I just think there's so many different utility
kind of shows that could be made. As you mentioned, Laura,
(37:16):
travel is gonna it's a great example, it's gonna come
roaring back, and it's something that um, you know, airlines
especially should be thinking about their spaces and places and
audio filling kind of that travel experience is so exciting. Um.
So not just when you get somewhere. But I love
the idea, Steve of like as you go, just even
(37:39):
thinking about a podcasting channel specifically for in flight entertainment. Um,
there's a whole world of imagination there, Steve, can we
go into the Steve Wilson like vault for a second.
I feel like you are sitting on a decade worth
of insight and knowledge. People probably asking how do I
get on the top ten, or you know, what does
(37:59):
it take to be in the you know What's new
and next over the years would have been the Steve
Wilson s a queues for succeeding in podcasting. You know,
I think first and foremost and creating a great podcast,
you know, you do have to think about your audience.
You know this is going to come across as so basic,
(38:21):
but oftentimes when people create stories, they need to think
about what's in it for that listener at the end
of the journey. You know, what do you want a
listener to get out of it? And they need to
be sure to present that uh in their actual messaging
around the show. So many people just say hey, new
episode now available, you know, when they post on social
media around their their shows, but they don't tell the
(38:44):
full story of what their podcast is about and what
you want to a user to get out of it. Uh.
In terms of really reaching an audience and working with platforms,
I think, you know, reaching out the platforms you've got
to keep in mind as a pitch, and that's also
involves you know, telling your story to the platforms, what
you're doing, how you're building an audience, how you're leveraging
their platform and what what your vision is overall, because
(39:07):
I think when you pitch your story and that in
that compelling way, the platforms of course want to work
with the brightest, most innovative creators, and so they're going
to be compelled to want to feature your show and
help it grow on their platform. That's really the mutual
goal of any platform and publishers to help that constant
succeed on their platform. So I think really crafting your
(39:28):
message as as a pitch and how platforms can get
on board to support what you're already doing and how
you're already in motion is a really great way to
think about positioning yourself specifically for those platforms. Are there
things that you would say like must do to develop
audience and podcasting, well, really really quick to go back
to that audience need, I just think really considering what
(39:50):
that is and how how especially brands can interact with that. Uh,
there's so many fun opportunities, you know, I don't I
don't know if you have anybody who listens to your
from places like Sherman Williams are bear, but I've really
wanted to hear that podcast that always that talks about
color psychology. We all love thinking about colors, and we
know that really basic level of of of color psychology.
(40:13):
But even though this is an audio medium, I think
you can tell really fun and interesting stories around color
um and that might be something that would be perfect
for an expert like one of those companies I mentioned
to get involved in. So think about what an audience
might be interested in and how that might fit into
their life. You know, we're in the process of painting
our kitchen, and you know, there's some insights I can
glean from articles out there and websites. But I would
(40:34):
love to listen to that podcast, but I also have
some opportunities to go for a walk here and want
to learn a little bit more. So UM yeah, I
think thinking deeply about what an audience might want or
what even in kind of a you know, a pop psychology,
uh kind of level consumers are interested in. You know,
I uh spent a long time before working on the
podcast team and Apple in Apple's education division and helped
(40:57):
build iTunes You, which was an educational podcasting platform and
people all the time we're looking for the science of
superheroes and these intersections between learning and life in a
really compelling way that I think that's one opportunity that
brands really have is to to help educate people and
leverage the audio medium to fit better into their lives
(41:18):
while people might be on the go. Yes, I agree.
I think you basically content breaks down into two major buckets,
education and entertainment, and when you can combine the two,
it's exciting. It's a huge opportunity for brands. Real quick, Steve,
Social Audio, what's your take. Well, I think that there's
(41:39):
um a lot of different approaches going on right now,
which is really great. I've been really enjoying Clubhouse and
and it's been exciting to see and chat with you
guys there. You know, I think part of what's happening
right now reminds me a little bit of the live
streaming apps from a few years ago, Periscope and mere
Cat and those sorts of things. But uh, a little
(42:02):
bit uh, a little bit easier to fit into people's lives.
You don't have to get on camera, uh and make
sure you you look great. It's much more open to
everyone participating and actually empowers what people are saying and
their words and their speech rather than what they look
like and where they are and the things in the
background there. So I'm really excited about the ability to
(42:25):
connect over social audio apps in that way. UM, there's
a whole other bucket of experimentation happening around, you know,
taking longer form audio and making it more digestible in
a social context and in that in that space, there's
a lot of different ways you know, audio can fit in,
whether that's a more native experience, uh still on demand
(42:46):
on the social platforms, um, but really lending itself to
that greater discovery ability and ways in which you know,
when we want to learn about a new HBO or
Netflix series, there's oftentimes great short video that helps market
that program. Those are the kinds of things we're investing
in q CO to help people get into our series
with the understanding that they're they're longer, a longer, more scripted,
(43:09):
immersive experience that we want them to go and participate in.
What are you listening to right now, Steve oh Man, UM,
variety of things. So I'm listening to All Fantasy Everything,
which is a show created by Ian Carmel. He's a
writer for James Cordon, but it's a few comedians who
Fantasy Draft here I'm doing air quotes for your for
your listeners, uh favorite topics, whether that's best food or
(43:32):
vacation activities. They sort of go in and around and
talk about their their favorite picks within those topics. It's
a really fun listen. UM. Also really enjoying um uh
Life of Leon from Lauren Shippin and her team over there.
It's a great scripted fiction show. We want to shot
them out as well. All right, we'll have to download
(43:52):
those and check them out. Steve before we get into
our final game. What is your critique of Atlantia? What
can we be doing better? What about our new show?
Are I've even seen it? You guys, no, I have
you know? Let me take a look at it here,
let you pull it up. I mean, look, I love it.
I love the styled type treatment that you have here.
(44:13):
That feels like that greeting card, um and and a
place where we all exist here talking about brands and advertising.
I don't really have a lot of criticisms here to
I mean, you know, out of ten, what are we
getting out of ten? I would say nine point to five?
Is that all right? Room for improvement? I like that.
I love your I love your description and I love
(44:35):
your episode titles as well. Here guys, you're getting guests
for nailing it. Set in sign of approval, Steve, bye
bye bye. What would you stay goodbye to? What would
you purchase? And what would you do yourself? Okay, so
for keeping this in the podcast industry, I would stay
goodbye to? Uh calling podcasting the wild Wild West or
(44:59):
discoveries brooken. I think that these phrases are often repeated
in podcasts, but as the medium continues to grow, we
have a lot of great solutions that make podcast more
and more mainstream. So get rid of those phrases. Let's
cut them out. There a trope, no more wild Wild
West of podcasting. We've gone mainstream. We've got mainstream. We've
gone mainstream. What would you buy? I would buy adamentory
(45:23):
in podcast? What would you do yourself? What would I
do myself? I think that there's a huge opportunity in
kids content. You know, if you think about the amount
of time that parents and kids uh been together in
the car and maybe hopefully soon will again. There are
a lot of podcasts that aren't they have to listen
to with your kids and family. But there's so many
(45:45):
places in which you know, kids could be enjoying audio
more and particularly as parents think about, you know, the
amount of screen time they want their kids to engage
with apps and entertainment, it's a it's a constant struggle.
There's an opportunity on kids content that could be educational
and informative but allow allow kids to color or build blocks.
(46:08):
You know. That's something that my kids really love to do,
is listening to a podcast and coloring what they're hearing
and learning about at the same time. So I'd really
invest a lot more in kids media and audio. If
you can get my kid listening to a podcast, I
would be thrilled. My kid your kids, She's five and
she is like she she laughs at it. She's like,
(46:30):
turned this off. But I agree. I think it's a
it's a huge opportunity. Yeah, there's some great kids shows
out there. While in the World is a big family
favorite with Guy ros and uh It's it's it's something
to definitely check out with the kids, Steve. If people
want to get in touch with you to evaluate their
(46:50):
cover art, but more importantly do business with q code,
how can they get in touch with you? Yeah, you
could look me up on Twitter at Stephen Wilson on
Twitter Stephen with pH or go to q code media
dot com. Steve, this has been awesome. Look, I'm new
to actually be able to appear on podcast guys in
my new role. So um, I'm excited to be Really,
(47:11):
you're like, this is my first podcast guesting experience. Really,
Oh that's awesome. Let's turn the tables here. How did
I do as a guest on your podcast? You were great.
Here's what I would say, you have to come back.
We're gonna make Steve Wilson a recurring character. I'd be
honored that, I would say, I'd be honored to collaborate.
(47:32):
You know, your your listeners won't have seen this, but
Alexa Lendon and winked here and so Ryan and I,
you know, thinking about the sort of sound design and
audio you know, that kind of audio drama effect that
you could get here. I'd be so happy to be
with you guys again. Steve, thank you so so much
for being your first podcast. Congrats on your new role
(47:54):
to strategy officer at q code, and thank you for
always being a vocal support order of us. Uh it
meant a lot and you helped us so much get started.
So yes, thank you, big hat tip to you. Well,
thank you guys. Wonderful to be with you and next again,
that was a long time coming. It was great to
(48:14):
have Steve on the show. Thank you Steve for not
only being like true kind of early supporters of us
and at Landia, but also just being a great friend
where we could call and say what's happening and what's
next and get your thoughts on it. To this conversation
and all the things that have been happening in the
audio and podcast acquisition space. Spotify just announced that they
(48:37):
acquired another huge show, Armchair Expert. By the way, Monica Padman,
who's the co host of Armchair Expert, is coming on
the show. Big congrats to her and Deck Shepherd on
that acquisition. There's so much going on in this space
and it got me thinking. And there's a lot of
conversation in Twitter verse around this as well, from sub
stack to audio. But institutional verse this creator and can
(49:02):
they kind of coexist? And when I say institutional, I'm
talking about big, mature, established companies like Spotify, Like can Spotify,
you know, acquire these giant shows as well as sponsor
or create a community for creators or are they at
odds inherently, and I actually am in the camp and
(49:22):
a big believer that they can exist, and so there
is a world where kind of bigger, mature company can
actually exist and in fact maybe even continue to help
grow the creator economy and the individual contributor. So I'm
a big fan of what's happening in the audio space
for this, and I think it's looked at less so
(49:44):
right now, um, but definitely more to come as Apple
and Spotify get into the creator space. But I think
it's a great setup in thinking about the use case
of audio and how the barrier of entry into audio
is so low, the costs to do it, the time
to do it, the accessibility to do it in comparison
to the production of other types of media, to be
(50:07):
able to put ideas out in the world and see
what sticks. And I think so there's a great point
Laura around testing in audio. I think right now brands
can still and there are very few places brands can
do this in my opinion, branch to not just be
doing advertising and pre roll spots in your standard placement.
(50:28):
They should be really going into deeper partnerships and exploring
how does that brand express in different genres. How does
that brand express in fictional scripted work, How does that
brand kind of add to the layer of this kind
of creative space where they really don't have a lot
(50:49):
to lose, they have a lot of community potentially to
reach and to gain. So I'm bullish on you know,
more experimentation that's outside of standard average hizing. I couldn't
agree Morelos and I think we are really at an
interesting point where we need to push on format, form, factor, monetization,
(51:09):
use case, all of the things. This medium allows us
to have a wide ranging testing ground to do all
of it. And so excited to see what Steve does
at que Code. So much happening there, and thanks again
to Steve for joining us for a really insightful conversation.
Thanks Steve. Laura hit it with the list of all
of our friends and family I heart who have been
(51:31):
so good to us and helped us get back on air.
Big thank you to Bob Connal, Carter, Andy, Eric gayle Val,
Michael jen We appreciate you. Thank you so much for
this opportunity. We'll see you in two weeks.
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