The Future of Work is (We Are) Rosie with Stephanie Nadi Olson

We have a packed show ADLANDIA! 

First up, Stephanie Nadi Olson, Founder and CEO of We Are Rosie and AdAge's 2020 Creativity Awards Visionary/Founder of the Year, joins us on the mic. A success story still in the making, Stephanie imagined an inclusive marketing/advertising industry, and in just over 2.5 years built We Are Rosie - a flexible, diverse remote workforce with over 6.5k Rosies. Stephanie takes us through her diverse family background which inspired the creation of We Are Rosie, how she bootstrapped a now 7-figure revenue business, how she defines corporate culture, and the conversations she’s having with big tech who are calling her to build a more diverse marketing org of flexible talent to integrate into their full-time teams.

We also drop our first segment of The Burning Question with Ian Schafer, Co-Founder and CEO of Kindred. Ian is joined by Mita Mallick, Head of Diversity and Inclusion, Equity and Impact at Carta to answer this episode’s burning question: Is FoFu (Fear of F’ing Up) holding back CEOs and leaders from making bold decisions? How do we get beyond cancel culture that has seeped into corporate decision making?

This episode is dedicated to the life of Marie “Mama” Totaro, June 25, 1930 - December 7, 2020.

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A message from Goodlandia [an Adlandia x Ad Council partnership]:

For information on loneliness and mental health support, please visit: www.Coping-19.com  

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Thank you to our partners at Yieldmo for supporting this episode of Adlandia. 

To learn how Yieldmo is making attention actionable, visit www.yieldmo.com.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, Atlantia, this is a special episode that we're dedicating
to the sparkling life of Marie Mama Ta Taro, who
is with us from June to December seven. Here's a
little clip of Mama dropping knowledge on social media from
at Landia episode A Little Meta, A little Mama in
Enjoy my grandmother in law, um, who is the most

(00:28):
active eighty seven year old I know on Facebook who
has recently converted and self taught um her way onto Instagram.
So have fun with this one, at Landia. What is
your name on Instagram? What is it? Yeah? Mamo? Okay,
Next we'll have to get you on Snapchat. Oh snapchat.

(00:52):
Oh that's where you put the ears to No, yeah,
all the filters. Oh, I'd never put my face like that.
Never Lucky put this face. But you have more photo
profile swaps than anybody I know with the seasons on Facebook.
You change your photo with like it's like a It's
like a calendar pin up to change my cover. But

(01:13):
are all your friends on Facebook? I'm curious, Like, do
they chat with you? None of them? They know what
the hell is all about? How about what I do
with those uh bit muljis. Yes, Oh, when I do
with those. Bimji is the girl who does my vendor placement.

(01:36):
I don't talk to anymore. I just send her a
bit Moji and she knows exactly what I want. She
looks forward. What do you say to her? Like? Give
me an example? Um? Like if she didn't? And some
my text and then there's a girl on me on me,

(02:02):
it's supposed to be me hand on the hit. Did
you get my text? Oh? I got so so day,
I can't how to? Could I get it on my
I pad? I'll show you, I'll show you. Make me
laugh so hard, I'm crying. What's up? I'm Laura Creni

(02:37):
and I'm Alexa Kristen. Welcome back to at Landia. Got
a great show today Stephanie Natty Olson on the mic.
So excited to have her. She started an amazing company
called We Are Rosie, and we Are Rosie was built
to really double down on remote work, and considering in

(02:59):
the majority of our industry and the world is working remotely,
we thought it would be really insightful to get Stephanie
on and share some of the lessons that she's learned
in building her business, certainly, but in what she's seeing
over the last you know, six seven, eight months, and
how agencies, brand marketers, corporations are adapting their model to

(03:20):
meet the moment. And given that Stephanie was so far
out in front of it, and honor to have her
here and share what she knows, and I love that
she is not just a gig platform or service. Really,
what Stephanie was doing up front was thinking about how
do we get the people, the others in the world

(03:41):
to become a part of this economy, to actually be
truly inclusive in the marketing and advertising space. And I
think that using inclusivity as one of the reasons she
got started is actually giving her a lot of legs,
especially at a time like now that we're in where

(04:02):
so many people are out of work, and also rethinking, frankly,
who do I want to be, what do I want
to do? And how do I take skill sets and
experiences that I've had and translate them maybe into something else.
So really excited to have Stephanie on and with that
we'll be right back. What's up, bad Landia. We're back

(04:26):
with our friends at yield MO for the third of
a four part series talking about making attention actionable. We
are here with Lisa Bradner, GM of Analytics and Teddy
jo d E, head of Product. It's really interesting to
think about context as an audience strategy. Can you talk
about how brands are working with yield Mo around building
contextually relevant strategies both on and off platform. We have

(04:49):
several ways that we work with advertisers. The company actually
started as a formats company, and it started because our founders,
and Teddy is one of them, said, you know, throwing
a display out on a mobile phone as a cousy experience.
Let's create something that's native to the device itself and
makes sense. And out of that grew our format's business.
And it's about creating something somebody wants to engage in.

(05:13):
So we just lost a format Mega Shopper. It's a
shoppable ad format that does a beautiful job of displaying
the brand. Right. It doesn't feel like some sort of
hokey d R book just to get eat a click here,
or no hula hooping cowboys or any of things we
all remember from the early days, right, But it's just
about a really quality brand experience that resonates that somebody

(05:35):
wants to go in and look and touch. And I
think the other side, and you're not saying it, Laura,
but it's true, which is you know, after three impressions,
if somebody is not signaling any interest, it's probably time
to go away for a while. Right that we need
to be equally sensitive to not the right time, let's
let's pivot, or not the right creative, Let's test something else.

(05:57):
Let's keep working and iterating the message and how we
put it together to make sure that we are showing
up in an authentic and right way. Um. And context
is absolutely part of that. Right. Even even a brand
I love, there are times when I don't want to
see it and don't want to hear from it. So
understanding the context I leaned and pay attention to and

(06:20):
the context I don't are really really important to not
offending or annoying people with our advertising experiences. And we
started Gilmo, we created these ads that we thought looked
better and we would like to see and they worked better. Um.
And one of the things we got from initial customers, right,
these were great. I'm seeing more sales from mobile, but

(06:43):
the click the rate is lower than than in They're
just trained to think that the click the rates I
need clicks because you know, I'm coming from search or
just been trained to think that this is the ultimate
goals get clicks. And that was really the genesis of
capturing attention because that's all we had, right, That's the
only way they can assess the quality of their advertising

(07:04):
was clicks. And especially if it's hard to kind of
measure sales and these these new environments, that's what allowed
us to get to creating attention and exposing a new
way to evaluate the quality even add and it's even
more important today because you're inundated with messages and being
able to get that feedback from a brand like this
is working, this isn't um and this is really working,

(07:25):
and attention is ultimately the closest proxy you can to
that in real time, like if someone is this working?
Is is someone? Does someone care about this message or not?
And the faster you can give that, the fast you
can kind of operate on that as a brand, the
better you're going to be. Well, the click through is
a really interesting thing, Teddy, right, I mean we all
malign click through rate is a terrible metric, and yet

(07:45):
media plans come across your desk and ctr is the goal. Right.
We worked with a specialty retailer who came to us
and click through rate was their KPI and we said, okay,
but if we can get fewer clicks but better clicks
right higher ROAs war conversion, are you interested in that?
And they said yes, And they put us head to

(08:06):
head with several other partners in the space, and we
beat them all. We didn't beat them on raw clicks,
but we beat them on return on I had spend.
We beat them on conversion. So you know, it's not
even as simple as all clickthroughs are bad. It's understanding
which ones are meaningful and which ones are somebody fat
fingering the phone. And if you can start to distinguish
those in the wild, you can start to develop a

(08:29):
click through metrics that actually matters and brings value. How
many clients are you working with that are starting to
use you to actually collect first party data and starting
to actually really build the coffer right their coffer, a
first party data around audiences that matter to their brand.

(08:51):
We are, and increasingly we have just launched our off
marketplace data product, and that is exactly what it's focused on,
is helping brands build their own corpus of a database
that basically tells them, who, what, where, when, why is
working for them? And that's going to look completely different

(09:13):
from one brand to another, and even between competitive brands.
Right now, you just you go out and bid on
an undifferentiated sea of impressions and you hope you pick
the right ones, right, and it's price driven and it's
auction driven, and you don't know what you're getting. We're
helping clients build their own proprietary way of evaluating. This

(09:33):
impression is actually worth a lot more to me than
that impression, even though they look the same, right, even
though they're both brands safe and they're both fraud free,
and they're both viewable, but they are not the same
for the brands. And you can do that from an
audience perspective, but can also do it from an inventory perspective.
And that's exactly the product we've launched and where we're
going after is we believe the future is brands bringing

(09:56):
their own view of the marketplace and developing their own
biddings rategy that's customized for their goals, as opposed to
just sort of this open auction where we all just
hope for the best. Thank you Lisa and Teddy so
much for joining us. For another discussion on making attention actionable.
For more, go to www dot yield, mo y I
E L D m O dot com and Atlantia. We

(10:24):
are back in the booth with Stephanie Natty Olsen, founder
and CEO of We Are Rosie, And if I may
add my favorite Twitter follow of the moment, Stephanie, Welcome
to Atlantia. Welcome, Thank you so much. I'm so happy
to be here. We're so happy to have you, Stephanie.
The question on everyone's mind what is we are Rosie? Oh?

(10:44):
This is a great question. I mean, we have spent
two and a half years kind of defining that ourselves.
We Are Rosie is a flexible talent solution um plugging
into companies big and small to offer agile, independent talent
onto and across the entire marketing spectrum. Take us to
the origin story. How did We Are Rosie start? What

(11:06):
was the sort of aha moment um that led to
this amazing business that you have been building? Oh? I
like I wish there was one Aha moment. There have
been kind of several in my life and when I
look back, I'll actually take you back like a little
bit further to even my childhood UM. My parents come
from two wildly different backgrounds. My dad grew up in

(11:28):
a refugee camp, multiple refugee camps, UM and lost his
mother at a very young age and came to the
States with a third grade education working as a tailor
UM and literally met my mother in a car accident
here in Atlanta. And my my dad is this brown
Muslim Arabic man the English as a second language. My

(11:49):
mother is this white, blonde hair, blue eyed Christian woman
from Nebraska. UM, and these two kind of came together
in like the most unexpected way and built this really
unexpect of family. That is kind of an AHA moment
for me, And that diversity for me is like baseline, right,
Like I have just always grown up around different people,

(12:10):
people with different educational backgrounds, different languages, different religions UM.
And so I've just had like a really unique appreciation
for that UM, and that appreciation married with kind of
my fifteen year career in the marketing and advertising space
UM has really borne we are rosy into the world. Right,
Like I have always had an eye out for people

(12:30):
who are overlooked and marginalized and underestimated in the way
that my dad UM and oftentimes the Muslim Arabic side
of my family has been throughout their lives UM. And
I was seeing that happen in the marketing and advertising space,
and I thought, this is a shame. You know, we're
we're having all these panels. We're talking so frequently about

(12:52):
caring about creating an inclusive industry, creating a place where
everyone can thrive, UM, increasing diversity. We've been talking well
this for ten years or longer, right for decades, and
like no progress to be made, honestly, And I thought
we were pushing a lot of people out of this
industry simply because they don't feel welcome here. And we

(13:15):
have created corporate refugees and those are my people. So
I built We Are Rosie to be a home for
all of the corporate refugees in the marketing industry. These
are the caregivers, the people who don't want to live
in a major market, people over forty, the LGBTQ community,
black marketers, people of color marketers, all of the people

(13:36):
that provide the richness that this industry wants. UM, that
haven't felt welcome and at home. And that's really you know,
my life's work and my passion UM and what lights
me up. So it's it's been really cool to translate
that into a new type of business and in the
marketing services space. Stephanie, how old is we are? We're

(13:56):
two and a half years old. We'll be three in March.
And Stephanie, I know you've shared with Alex and I
a story about your first brief. There's an incredible story
about the magic of Rosie coming to life seemingly overnight.
Can you take us back to that moment. Yeah, I
mean I was actually reflecting on this recently and thinking like,

(14:17):
the greatest gift we ever got as this small business
with a big dream was the complete lack of diligence
our first client did for us. Like we didn't have
a website, I didn't have a bank account, like I
was still trying to figure out insurance. And a giant
agency hired us to off board a piece of business.
And I had just kind of started telling people that

(14:38):
I was going to build this community of independent marketers
um and they other people started telling other people, and
it landed on the desk of this woman at a
big agency who was in a bind and she needed
ten media people to sail this q s R brand.
Into the sunset that the account was in review and

(14:59):
the agency wasn't going to defend it, and they wanted
to take all their full time employees off of it
and put them onto new Biz so that they wouldn't
have to lay them off eventually when this particular piece
of business left the agency. So I got on the
phone with them and pretended I had a business that
didn't quite exist yet, and um, they said we need

(15:20):
ten rosies. It was Thursday. They said we need ten
rosies to start on Monday, and I was like, oh yeah, yes,
sure absolutely, And I spent all weekend just hustling, you know,
like just calling everyone I know, finding out who was freelancing,
getting referrals from people on LinkedIn, like just hitting up strangers.

(15:40):
It was just like such a grind and we pulled
it off and we ran all uh programmatic and social
media for a giant QUSR brand for six months. We
launched six hundred campaigns, um had rosies and three time zones.
I mean it was just completely wild. So ten rosies
in nearly three years. How do you become a rosie?

(16:04):
And as a fast follow, how do you hire a rosie? Yeah,
so to become a Rosie. You go to we are
rosy dot com slash join and you fill out a profile,
and we're really trying to like revolutionize the way that
we evaluate talent that we are Rosie. We're trying to
question everything over here all the time. UM. But we
started to ask people, yes, of course, like what is

(16:27):
your experience and skills? What have you done? What types
of brands have you worked on? But we're also asking
like what lights you up? Like what do you care about?
What type of work really like makes you excited? And
so once we have all of that information, will match
people with projects as they come available. UM. From the
client side, we have a pretty deep client experience and

(16:50):
success team now we are Rosie. So our clients will
call us, sometimes just with a business challenge that they
need help thinking through how they can leverage ex talent,
sometimes with a really specific need where they say I
need this particular type of talent for a six month
project UM or a matt leave or something like that. UM,

(17:11):
and then we spin up, you know, hand pick a
team or an individual Rosie for them and say, here's
who we think can knock this out of the park
for you. Here's why, UM, here's why we love this
person for this, and then we kind of co create
the teams alongside our clients. Are you guys also doing
kind of non linear matching and giving people opportunities? And

(17:31):
if so, what's your process to do that? Yeah, to
be honest, it's much easier for us to do that
within our own four walls at the moment are four
virtual walls. So when we're hiring for our core team,
we use intuition over everything else. Right, Like my chief
of staff, who I absolutely could not live without UM,
came from a pe back to medical device company. Like,

(17:54):
it is not linear, and she is the one who's
negotiating contracts with all of our big clients UM and
keep being me from going off the rails and marketing
is a totally you know, new realm for her at
the to the extent that we're doing it here UM.
So we are always looking for people that are just
passionate about what we're doing and are aligned with our
ethos and values. I honestly care much more about that

(18:16):
than what's on your resume. So we've just kind of
done that throughout our entire company as we've grown UM.
For our clients. It's hard, right, because we're trying to
push them to change their culture through we are rosy. Um.
The beautiful thing is as our company is kind of blossomed,
is that a lot of our clients come to us
and say, I want my organization to look more like

(18:39):
we are rosy than what my organization looks like today,
for reasons around diversity and inclusion, agility, you know, transparency, um,
all sorts of reasons. And so we're able to say like, look,
this is how we do it. So we need you
to trust us. Right that this person on paper might
not look a perfect but if you keep using the

(19:00):
same requirements you've always used to bring talent into your organization,
you're never going to have diversity, right, Like, we have
to change the system if we want a different outcome.
So it's a lot of repetition on that the era
of remote work is it here to stay? Like the
cat is out of the bag. How are you going
to like look at anybody in the face after this

(19:21):
and be like, you know, you need to be in
the office to do your job, Like nobody's gonna take
you seriously, how has the conversation changed for you? In
I mean, remote work is a huge part of that, right. Like,
I my last business trip before COVID hit was to
meet our Amazon and Microsoft clients, and I was there

(19:41):
specifically to talk to them about remote work as a
form of inclusion. And you know, we had this wonderful
conversation about you know, if you really care about inclusion
in your organization, you cannot say I want a world
class organization and everybody has to live in this market, right,
What are you asking people to give up in terms
of community, um, especially from underrepresented groups of talent, if

(20:05):
you're forcing them to live in any specific market. Um.
So that was the conversation, and that that was the
that was kind of the angle that we had to
have at the moment to get people to come along
the remote work ride COVID. Kind of, as you mentioned,
like we're all here together now, we all know that
this is a thing and it's happening, and like we
were making work potentially much more complicated than we needed

(20:27):
to for a really long time. And so the conversation
has certainly changed from like tell me how people could
work remotely to oh my god, how do I support
people working remotely? Because we're here now and it's really
like been a huge evolution for our business where we
have moved over to like these full enterprise partnerships, where

(20:48):
our clients are saying, we need we are Rosie to
be this flexible layer on top of our full time
employees because nobody knows what the future is going to
look like. We're totally down with remote work now ow
um and we realized that we were never as innovative
and agile as we thought we were because we were
really caught on our heels when all of this COVID

(21:08):
stuff started. Um. So the conversation has changed in a
huge way. Is there we are Rosie playbook for corporate
culture of the future. I think there's two things. Um.
You know, there have been moments where I've wondered, like,
is it possible to turn the Titanic right? If you're
an organization of people, how can you incorporate meaningful change

(21:30):
on that that type of scale where we have seen
success with our clients in particular, I call them strategic rebels,
Like there are people in these massive global organizations that
want to institute change and have the power and influence
to do it in their sphere. Um. And people have
to see it work before they get more comfortable with it.

(21:51):
So you can do it from the inside, where these
strategic rebels start to really live their values out loud
and and force the issue and use all of their
influence and power to do that. And internally, you can
also do it through external partners like We Are Rosie.
I had a client the other day describe us as
like UM a cheat. They were like, by partnering with
We Are Rosie, my team gets to see what inclusion

(22:14):
looks like. My team gets to see what agility looks like,
and it becomes the norm here. So we're slowly shifting
culture because none of this stuff is going to happen overnight.
So I think that that's a really interesting way to
think about. You know, what are the micro actions that
you can take in some macro actions wherever you can
to just like get closer to the destination you want
to be in UM. And then what we've learned that

(22:37):
we are Rosie that I think, you know, we get
asked all the time, how do your rosies feel like
a team if they've never worked together before, and you know,
they're not playing ping pong together at the office. And
I can honestly say, like I've worked at huge companies.
I worked at Microsoft, I worked at a O l
UM and like, I have never seen a group of
people galvanized the way I have seen the We Are

(22:59):
Rosy com unity um. And it's the sense of purpose,
Like every single person that joins the We Are Rosy
community knows what they're getting into, Like we live our
values out loud. We're, you know, an activist organization, Like
I'm pretty plain about the fact that we Are Rosy
is in the business of creating access and opportunity and

(23:20):
wealth for people who traditionally have been left out of
those conversations and opportunities. And so when people join we
Are Rosy, like they understand what we are about as
a company and there's no ambiguity there. So we're like
this lightning rod for other like minded people. And that
is culture, right, Like culture isn't, you know, grabbing drinks

(23:42):
after work necessarily, It isn't you know, shooting the ship
around the coffeemaker. Culture can be especially for for a
much needed revolution, like what We Are Rosy is trying
to create with work. Culture can be a place that
has shared beliefs and values and where we're all working
towards normalizing a better way of work for all of us.

(24:03):
I just pulled up this tweet UM from seven hours
ago from recording this episode where you said, uh in
talking about we are Rosie. This business has grown a
hundred and twenty year over year without and capitalized, without
compromising our values, any outside funding tech. We're building that now,
client funded office space or a biz plan. You don't

(24:25):
have to follow anyone else's blueprint. You boots dropped the
whole thing. Yeah, what does that feel like two and
a half years later, And what have you learned or
wish you knew then that you know now to sort
of pass it on. It feels wonderful to bootstrop this business.
Like I've got to be honest, like no regrets. There
has never been a moment where I have been like

(24:47):
I wish we had outside funding UM. And it has
forced us to like be really smart about what we do.
It's forced us to listen to every signal we get
from our customers because they're funding this business UM, and
you know it's it's liberated our business. Like we're in
the business of liberation. We don't want to be tied

(25:08):
down with anybody else's money or energy. I want to
be free to grow this business the way I want.
So that is it's a really good feeling. UM. It's
not always easy, but like our business has grown so
quickly that like it. Honestly, we've been profitable since day one. UM,
we're more than doubling our revenue year over year in

(25:30):
the midst of all of this craziness of UM and
we're projecting three x revenue growth for next year. And
in terms of advice that I wish I knew, I
wish I knew that there are so many people that
want to help this business is like there I could
say like all the time, like there are angels everywhere.
We have grown with this tiny marketing team. We have

(25:54):
no like media budget or anything like that through word
of mouth and it's through these incredible influential people in
this industry that are our strategic rebels, that are like,
holy shit, we need more of this. That tell their
friends and tell their friends. And I wish um I
had known at the beginning that like it was okay
to ask for help and to say, hey, if you

(26:14):
know anybody that should know about we are Rosie, please
tell them who do you want to work with next?
Who's on the dream list, So we have like very
nerdy dreams over here. I want to work with Salesforce,
I want to work with Oracle, I want to work
with Adobe. We're killing it with the big tech companies
right now, and they can put so many rosies to work.

(26:35):
So I always think about it from like, who can
we get in with that can put a ton of
rosies to work UM at once and P and has
been will stay on our list until we crack that
one too. I think we have some people to see
see when this UH episode comes out on Twitter. Yes,
So talking about industry models, the shift from a award

(26:57):
project base work, which I have to imagine really leans
into the need for the agility model that you have
in co creating, getting and getting out, you know, producing
the best work with the right team. What are you
seeing in terms of a O R versus project and
do you are you running different playbooks depending on size
and scope or is the model the model the model?

(27:18):
The model remains unchanged, right Like we are Rosy can
give you individual talent or teams of talent to get
a project over the line, and we thrive as you
can imagine in project based environments, right because project based
environments are a great time to experiment, it's a great
time to innovate, it's a great time to really like

(27:38):
actually show up with diversity and inclusion, particularly if you
have access to a model like we are Rosy, So
we are killing it on the project based front um
and what we're seeing. You know, our clients are big,
right and so there they need an A O R
right like we work with Microsoft. We will never replace
your A R. I have no interest in that. Like

(27:58):
there is a place for an A O R and
I hat tip those folks. But for us to be
able to handle bolster in house teams to get project
based work done and over the line internally, UM is
invaluable right now, right as people just don't know what's
going to happen tomorrow or what they're going to need.

(28:20):
The ability to just tap into UM folks at a
moment's notice and get them into your organization in a
thoughtful way is really meaningful. So I think we'll continue
to see that the growth of project based work. Certainly
with all the instability, Are there any skill sets that
jump out right now or in the last year the

(28:40):
organizations or cmos are looking for. We haven't seen any
specific trends in that way. But in terms of what
our clients are asking us for, the only unique thing
that I think is really worth calling out is our
clients are asking us now for a flex talent resource manager.
So they're asking us for somebody that can sit inside

(29:01):
their organization listening on the business needs, what's coming down
the pipe, um, what they're gonna in, which ways they're
going to need to flex, and can translate that need
into a flexible talent you know, solution or outcome. And
so this is it's a new skill set, right, It's
somebody who's just kind of keeping an eye out for like,
how do we do this with you know, on our

(29:24):
own using this you know massive community and growing community
of independence and marketing is totally a talent producer, which
I love that idea. Yeah, I mean when you think
about it, to me, HR is one of the departments
or you know, expertise that needs to be totally disrupted
and it's still sitting in the world of like talking

(29:45):
about the future of work, talking about the gig economy.
But in most organizations it's not happening. No, it's not happening.
You know, there's contractors there's some freelancers, and then there's
f T R F T S and it's this stand
eared stuff. Yeah, are you meeting with c h R
O S, Like are you meeting with heads of HR? Yeah?

(30:07):
I mean most of our conversations center with the CMO
and actually UM D E and I. So those are
kind of our our main areas because we've made this
public commitment that of the people that we put to
work through we Are Rosy will be blacker people of color.
And so the D E and I teams with that
are partnered with the cmos are quite interested in how

(30:29):
we are Rosy can create that cultural shift and showcase diversity,
um and inclusion through our partnership so that they can
begin to move things along themselves. I agree with you,
there is such a huge opportunity on the HR side
because we hear all the stories from our rosie's who
are like I actually wanted to stay at this company
and am incredibly valuable. And I told them that I

(30:52):
needed to work remote pre covid obviously and they said
no way. Or I told them that I needed to
work three days a week or that I needed flex
hours and they said no way. And like there is
just incredible talent streaming out the doors and they have
options now, and so the HR teams should be paying
attention um and start thinking about how they can retain

(31:14):
talent as people begin to have more flexible options. And
I think COVID is pushing a lot of folks in
that way. So Stephan, you have to highlight something for
a minute. At Age named you Visionary of the Year
this year. Congratulations, thank you. And as I'm sitting through
this episode hearing you know from your origin story too,
to the roadmap to to where you're headed, how you're

(31:35):
handling you know, the things coming in your inbox. Well
we are Rosie Jesta and advertising and marketing, I don't
think so. It has become so apparent, like greater than
I've ever realized, right that there was so much pent
up demand on the talent side, UM for people to
work in a way that gave them more dignity and
humanity UM and a better life. And the ripple effect

(31:58):
that we've seen through the work that we're just doing
in marketing and advertising, where if you can give one
person an opportunity to work in a way that you
know gives them, uh the life that they desire and
the career that they want. There's a ripple effect, and
I think stopping at marketing would be a disservice because
we certainly have the blueprint, like we know how to
make it happen UM, and we know how to integrate

(32:20):
this talent into other organizations in a really meaningful way.
So you know, we aren't making any moves in that
in that way our direction at the moment, but it's
certainly something that I have an eye on, and I
think that the potential for us to have an impact
in other verticals is you know, a no brainer for us. Yeah,
because I'm just I've pulled up your website and it

(32:42):
says about, you know, a new era of marketing and
I'm waiting for the day I see marketing with the
line through it and it's just like a new era
of working period. So what is in the road map?
What's next? UM? We are building tech, which is really exciting. UM.
You know, it's totally client funded and I encourage anyone
who wants to build tech like get and get four

(33:04):
cases where you're doing it manually first, which is what
we've done. UM. So we're really excited to be building
a tech platform that will allow our clients to come
see their rosies UM who's working on projects now, A
custom curated bench of talent that we've kind of hand
picked UM that makes sense for their organization, diversity metrics
around the rosies that are we're plugging in UM and

(33:27):
also like some ways that we want them to stretch UM.
So we're about to launch a big partnership that I
can't name yet that is really digging deep into matching
people to work based on what lights them up and
what they're capable of and less on you know, what
school they went to and what they've done so far.
So that will allow us once we have all of

(33:48):
that data UM, i'll overlaid on our roses, it'll allow
us to make more thoughtful recommendations to our clients about
how they can push themselves. So I think that's that's
giving people a lot of light. A lot of insights
UM that you've derived over the last two and a
half years have culminated in a podcast and the Rosie Report.
Can you talk a little bit about the Rosy Report

(34:10):
and the direction you're going from a thought leadership standpoint.
There is a Desmond Tutu quote that I love that says, UM,
at some point, we have to stop just pulling people
out of the river. We have to go upstream and
find out why they're falling in. And I remember reading
that UM like six or eight months ago and thinking,
oh my god, we are Rosie is just pulling people

(34:31):
out of the river. How do we influence the future
of work in a way that prevents so many people
from falling in to begin with? And I really I
really took it to heart and said, like, this is
our responsibility to our Rosie's in our community, and like
our mission to create a better way to work. And
that has kind of come to fruition in a few ways. UM.
The Rosie Report started out as an actual report, right, Like,

(34:54):
we have an incredible view of this industry. We work
with brands, forty five agencies, we have data on marketers, UM.
So we we've compiled all of that into a report
and case studies on what the future of work cannon
should look like in marketing. UM. We didn't want that
to be a static thing, so we really kind of
put our heads together on like, what are the other

(35:16):
ways that we can influence the future of work UM
and the Rosie Report franchise has certainly expanded. So there
is a podcast. We just launched season two of The
Rosy Report UM, where again we're maintaining that commitment that
the people represented on our podcast will be blacker, people
of color. We are so wholeheartedly um uh into the

(35:38):
fact that the future of work must be created and
ideated by everybody and not the same people that gave
us this current system that's not in service of everyone.
So we have the podcast, we have our actual Report
Insights Report that will be coming out again at the
beginning of next year UM. And then we also have
the Rosy Report dot Com. So that's kind of the

(35:59):
trifecta of the Rosie Report and the Rosie Report dot
Com is a content hub um all about the future
of work, not justin marketing, and it's about how do
we create a more inclusive, equitable future of work and
how do we kind of seize the moment that has
laid at our feet here to rebuild in a way
that creates meaningful change that we've been chasing after for decades.

(36:20):
Let's go to our game, Stephanie Naddie Olsen, what would
you kill by do yourself kill in office work? Requirements obviously,
um by like products, stock investment, whatever you can get
your hands on from companies that are building a more
equitable future in any way shape or form um and

(36:43):
I d I Y like d I Y the life
that will bring you joy. We all should be doing
that right now. And Stuff. If people want to get
in touch with you to learn more about Rosie, where
can they reach you on Twitter at Stephanie n olsen
o l s O n um and my email is

(37:05):
stuff at we are Rosie dot com. Thank you for
having me. Thank you, this is awesome. Thanks Steph. So
so great to have Stephanie on the show. We've been

(37:27):
watching the trajectory of her career over the last few
months and years. Is she's built We Are Rosie and
just really great to get the insight not just in
bootstrapping her business, in the origin of the company, but
really how she's emerged going from ten Rosie's one thing
that I will leave at Landia listeners to think about is,

(37:48):
you know, we had Ross Martin and curn Sheerson from
known on and the question was what do you want
to be known for? And I think corporate culture needs
to ask the same question, what do you want to
be known for, And it's not just your product, and
it's not just your price, and it's not your logistics.
What do you want to be known for? Isn't that

(38:08):
what we're pushing towards. What's your legacy? What's your legacy?
Talent at the end of the day, is one of
the most brand double things right in the best way.
It is one of the most important things that makes
you stand out. So what do you want to be
known for? You want to be known for your people
and how you've taken care of them and how you've

(38:31):
put them to work. That is completely ownable to who
your company is. I'm gonna double down on that, Alexai.
I just talked to a CMO the other day and
something that came up in the conversation is I bet
on you, I bet on people. You know I don't
care if your organization was www dot whatever, dot com.
I bet on you and you know so and everything

(38:52):
that you just said and really betting on people. I
co sign that. And with that, Laura, we're gonna bring
an Ian Schaefer, who we teased in our last episode,
is going to talk about a question that he put
out to the ad Landia community and on his Twitter handle,
and Ian started an organization called Kindred. He's the CEO

(39:14):
of Kindred and it's all about training and talking about
and having really difficult conversations about how we're actioning on
purpose and profit at the same time. And with that,
Ian Shaefer with the Burning Question. Ian's invited a guest
for this segment, Mita Maleck, head of Diversity and Inclusion,
Equity and Impact at Carter. Welcome, Ian and Nita, Hi,

(39:38):
thank you so much for having me. Thank you for
having me. I'm very excited. So this segment, the Burning Question,
focuses on the fear of effing up? How do we
get leaders and CEOs today to actually make decisions? And Ian,
you wrote a piece about this on LinkedIn that I
thought was great. Don't let the fear of effing up

(40:03):
stop you from making decisions. And we are seeing this
all over the place, and I think it's more extreme
right now, especially amidst COVID. The place that I wanted
to start is why are we facing such an extreme
as you put it, faux fu in today's c suite.
I think people fear consequences just like they always have.
Right now, the consequences are. Um. It's one thing to

(40:26):
have a reputational consequence in the workplace. It's another thing
to have a reputational consequence like in society, like where
you live. And I think the amount of attention that's
been paid to cancel culture, or at least the theoretical
construct of cancel culture, um, you know, has has been

(40:48):
enough to basically put a speed bump. But in some
cases of wall um, you know, between intent and action,
you know, when it comes to decision making at a
company or brand for that matter, um, which you know
oftentimes is just the some of the actions that a
company takes, including right it's it's commerce and commercials. But

(41:08):
the reality of the situation is that people do get
caught up um, you know in that in that net
or or in front of that wall. Um, you know,
when it comes time to take an action. I was
I was watching the movie manc on Netflix this weekend
about the screenwriter Citizen Kane and about the story that
went into that. And there's this great scene, um, you know,

(41:30):
where where Mac goes into the office of Irvin Thalberg,
who's running day to day at MGM. Um and and
and and mag is confronting Mr. Thalberg about UM the
political TV spots that he's running, UM that are meant
to basically change people's opinions of the candidate they're running
for by not necessarily like saying any facts, but just

(41:53):
like raw emotion and just appealing the lowest common denominator
to get somebody to choose one candidate over another. Obviously,
they're they're they're powerless here to modern politics. But um,
what Albert said was interesting, and he said, I know
when I am at when I come to work, I
don't consider it slumming. I don't humor to keep myself
above the fray. I go to the mat for what

(42:14):
I believe in. I don't have time to do otherwise.
But you, sir, how formidable people like you might be
if they actually gave at the office. And to me
like that, there's a lesson in that saying, like, you know,
there's it's it's easy to talk, it really is, but
it's not easy to take an action because again, like
you have to learn to be unafraid of those consequences.

(42:37):
And so I think that's that's ultimately what this is
all about me to Obviously, you've perspective on this. You
were with Unilever for what almost eight years, the big,
big corporate organization. How do you think about what's happening
right now around c suite and cancel culture and decision making.
It's a great question and something that I know is

(42:58):
going on all of our minds. And I'm just going
to be really, really vulnerable for a second and say
I wouldn't want to be canceled. No one does, right.
I think with the power of our wallet, it's really
easy as a consumer to say, I'm really offended by
this ad. The SAD is racist, sexists, homophobic. I'm going
to stop buying right. And I think to Ian's earlier
point is about intent versus impact and really understanding that.

(43:20):
I like to think that of the people in this
world lead with really good intentions, otherwise I can't do
this work. And then there's two percent who are in
the headlines who don't have great intentions, but really allowing
people and brands the opportunity to apologize and bounce back
and show after the apology, I think what's really important

(43:40):
is what do you do next? What are the actions
that you're going to take? And it's just like relationships, right,
you think about relationships in your life and how forgiving
you are, and how you will allow for grace and
allow for people to show you that they can do
better and be better. And I think it's the same
for brands. You know, I see a big distinction between
brands and the leader. I think that consumers would rather

(44:05):
cancel a leader. I think culturally we'd rather cancel a
person than a company. It is easier to cancel a
person because that they are a like we can picture
them as a living, breathing thing that makes decisions right,
and we all know that like people don't. I mean,
companies don't make decisions. People do. So it's the people
that work at these companies, and it's it's more way

(44:28):
more convenient to have a villain in a typical like
human construct than it is to construct some kind of
you know, boogeyman of an entire company. I think because
of the advertising model being what it is, the algorithms
of all of these social media platforms where a lot

(44:49):
of this quote unquote cancelation is happening. Um, Like, the
algorithm favors the anger, it favors the outrage, so it
almost feeds into it. So I think the actual cancelation
in um of an individual is generally more temporary than
we think it is. By that, I mean, um, you know,
if they're willing to feed into um, you know, the conversation,

(45:11):
the take the hate and vitriol that is really there
temporarily because people pile on in order to favor the
algorithm so that they get more seen on these social
media platforms. So when all of that is said and done,
I believe we do still have forums where somebody can
be redeemed. Redemption happens all the time. Um. You know,

(45:31):
it's uh, and we conveniently forget about that because every
moment on the internet feels like a year now. UM.
But I think there's um, you know, I actually I
think that the again, like the the act of cancelation
is quite real. But I think the results of that
are sometimes overblown. In fact, I think many people have
created entire businesses out of getting canceled. Every day. I

(45:54):
think the industry talks about trust and empathy and all
of these things which many of us in organizations don't
actually see that coming to light in our day to
day lives within our organizations. How do you create the trust?
I think it's really important that that trust is rebuilt.
And I don't think you can just like say, you know, hey,

(46:15):
baby have changed now trust me. It doesn't. It doesn't
work that way. You have to establish a pattern of
promises delivered. You have to invite people on that journey
with you. You have to exhibit a sense of transparency
that shows people like, there are a series of micro
actions that we're taking that is going to deliver on
the macro action that we're promising. This is the horizon, um,

(46:37):
you know, and how long it will take to get there.
This is how we want to be held accountable. Um.
This is how we're holding ourselves accountable. This is the
governance you know, we're putting into play. And this is
how it's you know, frankly, like if you're a CEO,
like I want there, you know, compensation if that's what
motivates them, tied into that too. And guess what actions
are contagious. So when people see like like, it gets

(46:59):
less rageous to take an action the more people do
it right, and so you know, eventually they stopped becoming
a courageous act and start becoming the north I think
to the earlier conversation on cancel culture, and canceling brands
and people. I do want to allow for grace and forgiveness,
but consumers retired, progress has been slow. So you see
the same mistakes being repeated by brands, and you wonder,

(47:22):
didn't you just see that happen two years ago? And
so that, I think is where also the tipping point is.
And I think you know, Ian and I were talking
about a recent example with Bird's Bees, and they actually
sell all day apparel, pajamas and so on their website
they feature a great, great intention featured families wearing different pajamas.

(47:45):
The family they featured that was black did not include
a black father, and all the other families included what
you would say is an intact family. So you can
imagine the outrage as as it should be from the
black community and for people like me who don't identify
as black, identify with the black community. And I'm an advocate.
I'm trying to be every day a better advocate for

(48:06):
the black community. And you wonder, why are we perpetuating
the stereotype that black fathers are missing from their families.
And also, if you just take a step back and
look at all the images, why why are we saying
that an intact family is a mom and a dad
and two kids or a mom and dad and one kid. Right,
so if you it's multi layered. But that is not
something that's new, right. That is something that as marketers,

(48:29):
you know, one of the most important things is I know,
Alexa you so well. I can surprise and delight you
with a product and service you didn't expect. But do
I know the history of your community that if I
want to serve you and my culturally competent and so
that to me is one where it's like wow, like
that's not the first time we've seen it propan. So
so this outrage is warranted. I think it's part of

(48:55):
a consumer's right, um, you know, to hold the companies
that they do business is with accountable for their actions, um.
And I also believe that should be the same way
for the employees who work with these companies too. And
the distance that we have now from each other and
from the four walls of our offices for for a
lot of us, UM, you know that is it makes

(49:16):
it easier to speak up and out right, so we
see more of this, you know, of the rants that
might happen in a Twitter thread, that would never happen
in the hallway or in a meeting because of the
very problems that you know that that created that situation, right,
which is that people you know have just been afraid
to speak out because of the consequences. But I think
above all else, one of the qualities that you have

(49:38):
to look for in the leader is decisiveness. But then
also um, you know, the willingness to uh to actually
like deal with the results of those decisions. Like a
lot of time, a lot of times like decisions are
made and then the leaders walk away and leave it
for other people to clean up. I think again, this
is about setting future goals, whatever those goals might be,

(49:58):
and kind of writing a story. And that story, I mean,
if twist in terms of getting there, but you still
arrive at that point, then you get to tell the
story of how you got there. And I think that's
you know, I think that would be a great story
for brands. But right now, what more brands wind up
doing is telling people what they're going to do, um
instead of what they've already done, and generally it's what
they've done externally, which is you know, again, it's like

(50:19):
kind of just putting a thin layer of paint um,
you know, on something that actually has uh infrastructural issues um,
and that's usually their own company. And reacting to what
Ian saying and thinking about the notion of ally ship
and how not just individuals but brands, like how do
you show up as an ally? And being an ally

(50:40):
is a continuous journey of learning. There's no destination that
I'm a great ally And and when you are an
ally for someone, you're only an ally when they tell
you that you've become an ally, right, because you have
to show it in your actions and in your words.
But the thing I think about is when people ask
me about ally ship. Allyship is difficult, and you were

(51:01):
going to make mistakes. It will likely cost you your pride,
It can cost you your comfort, It can cost you financially,
it can cost you all sorts of things. But the
impact of not being an ally is UM so much greater? Right,
And what history do you want to be on the question?

(51:23):
You have to ask yourself. But so even when brands
are making these mistakes, like I go back from the
words the example and I applaud them because they actually
had an apology very quickly. They saw what was happening
on Twitter, and they responded, but even in their apology
you could tell they were scared because the apology was
very vague rather than saying, we actually understand what we

(51:43):
were doing was perpetuating stereotypes of what families look like,
and so here's how we're going to do better, right,
And so there's that fear like, Okay, I'll apologize, check,
but I'm scared to actually say and may admit the mistake.
I mean because if they did that, then others would
learn from it and say, Okay, now through that lens,
as I understand what that mistake was, Like, what are
the filters that should be applied to people, um, you know,

(52:06):
inside an organization as you're exploring promotion into senior management
for example, and their ability to make these kinds of
decisions and overcome that fear versus you know, let's say
like the copyrighting process and things that that that go
into that. Are those fears similar? Yeah, I think They're
very similar, and they're also very connected. Right. I think

(52:26):
that if you want to lead in business today and
you have no understanding of the socioeconomic world around you,
and you have no understanding of the as I say
the New America and as we know, I think Nielsen
released three point one trillion dollars of spending power from
the multicultural consumer. If you don't have a plan to

(52:46):
reach that consumer now, you're likely not going to be
around in ten years. So I think that is like
this idea of empathy, right, And I think that's what's
also been lost in marketing actually into simulate enough with
like hyper personalization, you would think that that would be
something that we would be honing it on. I think
we've lost the plot amongst so much pressure to hit

(53:09):
targets and also be inclusive and feature people. Is this tokenism?
Is it not? You know all of those things, And
so I think that there needs to be much more
of an emphasis on how culturally competent are do you?
Because that is actually, I would say the driver to growth.
I'd love to think about that. It is kind of

(53:30):
the centerpiece of this burning question as a leader, what
community are you a part of? And what community are
you building? And how are you starting to think about that?
And does that build a modern almost network right for
brand and a company both from a buyer standpoint, a
partnership standpoint potentially m and a standpoint, you know, our

(53:51):
leaders thinking this way or do we need to do
much more education around this kind of mindset. I think
we're moving from an era cult brands to community brands
in the sense that there's a lot more dialogue happening
between the people who make that brand work, including the
people who buy it, and the people who are making
the decisions on behalf of that brand, like the feedback loop.

(54:12):
And I don't mean like social media engagement and things
like that, I mean like actual feedback loops between customers,
like all the stakeholders like of a brand, even the
communities that that brand operates with them, right, Like, getting
that feedback helps create a sense of awareness that makes
you realize that just like every issue is probably intersectional
in some way, like every decision is intersectional in some way,

(54:34):
there's a cause and effect for every one of those.
So you have to be able to provide those channels
of feedback, but then also show that you're acting on
that feedback. And it's not just about good ideas, it's
about you know, constant, you know, improving. A big part
of the getting over the FOFU is, as I wrote
in my piece on LinkedIn, you know is about validation
and feeling like you're not on the journey alone. And
going back to your question about community, I mean it's

(54:55):
basically like what we build kindred, you know, to give
leaders an opportunity for them to talk about those fears,
like a way for them to learn from others who
have overcome those years and have made you know, better
decisions on behalf of those companies and made those decisions
more often. Um, it's like, uh, I mean the reason
why Peloton works. I mean, it's the reason why they
chose that word to name their company. It's a group

(55:17):
of writers you get, you know, because they're traveling together,
are going to get to where they're going faster. And
whether it's because like one is providing wind shear for
the other or just providing motivation, right, I think there
are there is strength and numbers, and I think there's
courage and numbers two. You know, I would add that
I just don't think we celebrate failure enough. We don't
talk about familiar enough in our companies. Um. My husband

(55:38):
has this famous quote. He always tells me when I complained,
success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan.
Every time I complain about something happening at work because
we that's just how we're wired. Do we provide psychological
safety whether it's in our communities as we're talking about
our corporations and it has to start there before it
even shows up on Twitter or social media externally, Like,

(56:01):
do we provide that? So? I think that those are
the honest conversations you have to be having because you
have to allow to be able to unpack failure and
we don't we just bury it. There are CEOs, founders,
leaders you know who get that and understand that are
setting great examples, and I think, um, you know, it's
on everyone to tell more of their stories right as

(56:21):
to how they did that so that we can set
the new example for leaders to follow. I think there
are a lot of companies that are that are figuring
out and are trying a lot of new things that
are working that would have been thought of like a
year ago as being like two out there and even
experiment with. But now that we're seeing you know, the
results paying off for them, um that this may be
the way we go. Uh you know, moving forward, Ian

(56:42):
me to what brand or leader is actually doing this? Well,
I'll go back to one of my old brands that
I love, and I love ice cream giving it away,
But Ben and Jerry's I think has been on a
really long journey and road. So sometimes when I work
with brands, especially after the killing employed earlier this year,

(57:02):
and brands really wanting to step up and be inclusive
and start the journey to be an ally for the
black community and black consumers, It's like, where do I start,
Because I'm not Ben and Jerry's, But then and Jerry's
has been I mean, their history is in the Voting
Rights Act, and so working with them in sixteen when
they came out with their statement on Black Lives Matter,
which was not vernacular or words we could even say

(57:24):
out loud, right, and then you fast forward to and
so I think that is a brand consistently and that's
that's It's about the consistency piece. And they're very very
sure on who they are and who they're not, which
is again what we talked about with the magic of marketing.
You can't serve all people, but they know what their
values are and what they will stand for and who

(57:47):
they will stand with. I want to go like the
non traditional lab with this, and I don't think anyone
is UM, you know, is doing everything perfectly unless they are,
like you want to see them through the lens of
a more activist brand, like like a Ben and Jerry's right,
because I think most brands can't afford to be activists

(58:08):
necessarily because it may not just be part of their
founding story. But I look at I I look at
a lot of brands, UM in the context of like
what is the lens that they make their decisions through? UM.
And there's some that I've gotten to know over the
years that are so aware of what that lens is
that prevents them from making um, you know, the catastrophic

(58:30):
decisions and encourage them and make the good ones. UM.
You know, I think HBO is one of them. UM.
You know, HBO as a company has had kind of
a set of like ethical guidelines that they've operated with. UM.
You know that has really informed a lot of the
work that they've done. UM. You know. In fact, you know,

(58:52):
we worked with them on a on a mental health
initiative UM and you know they put they were able
to all is like overnight put together a real with
that that just shows like literal decades of speaking responsibly
about mental health about you know, eliminating or racing stigmas
around these very difficult conversations. And whether that was a

(59:15):
little show about it called intreatment or you know the
therapist popline sopranos, or it's the anxiety you know in
euphoria and and the impact of drugs on that anxiety.
Like they just have a herrhage of being able to
talk about that. So when they do say something, you
know about it quite publicly, or you know, one of
their talent is dealing with an issue also like very publicly.

(59:39):
You know, they're able to have an authoritative voice. They've
done the work, they've they've partnered with the nonprofits to
get it better understanding. It goes way beyond you know,
philanthropy and gift giving. It's actually you know, making sure
that again these stories are told in the right way, um,
you know, both in front of and frankly also behind
the camera. So it's like, you know, they're really living
their mission. Um you know. And I think it would

(01:00:02):
move all brands to take a step back before the
end of this year and um and and give their
mission like a long hard look and say is this
a good enough lens that we can you know, filter
every decision we make not just branding decisions, but also
like personnel decisions, hiring decisions. This every can everything filter

(01:00:23):
through this in a way that leaves us as a
better company and leaves the world in a better place
because we're in it. Um you know. And and again
like it's just one example of that that there are
many others, but you know, you want to see that
that that mission lived, not just stated everything you just
describe as the company's brand. And then that filter and
how then you execute how and who who with and

(01:00:46):
who you choose to do business with all of those decisions.
A call to action for brands before the end of
what a year. Meeta Ian, thank you for joining us
for the learning question. Thank you for at Landia. Before
we wrap up, it's time for good Landia, a partnership

(01:01:07):
between at Landia and the AD Council. This episode, we're
featuring the work the AD Council and partners are doing
around COVID nineteen, which focuses on mental health and loneliness,
which many of us are facing as a result of
more isolation both personally and professionally. The AD Council recently
launched research that found nearly one in five. People experience
consistent loneliness and sometimes resources are hard to find, so

(01:01:32):
the AD Council launched a new campaign, Coping nineteen, which
provides actionable tips and strategies to help cope. You can
find over a hundred vetted resources in English and Spanish
at coping dash nineteen dot org. And that is good Landia.
Laura hit it with the list of all of our
friends and family at I Heart who have been so

(01:01:53):
good to us and helped us get back on air.
Big thank you to Bob Connal, Carter, Andy, Eric Gale,
though Michael Jen we appreciate you. Thank you so much
for this opportunity. We'll see you in two weeks. M