Interview: Sean Saifa Wall

In episode seven, "In a Box," Sean Saifa Wall shared his family's experience with incarceration. But he had a lot more to say beyond that. In this full interview, Saifa and Yves get into activism, the importance of community, and healing from trauma.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to afro Punk Solution Sessions. I'm your host
Brigittad and I'm your co host Eve Jeff Cookee. Acro
Punk is a safe place, a blank space to freak
out in, to construct a new reality, to live our
lives as we see fit while making sense of the
world around us. Here at afro Punk, we have the
conversations that matter to us, conversations that lead to solutions.

(00:30):
You might remember Sean sifer Wall from the episode that
we did on prison abolition, prison reform, and mass incarceration
early in the season, but Scifil also had a lot
to say about intersects rights and the writing that he does,
and the conversation that I had with him was just
so good and so enlightening that we cann't help but

(00:52):
share the whole thing with you. The film that he
talked about on the episode was a documentary that he
has done called Letters to Unborn Son, that explores how
incarceration really affects families, and he does that through the
letters that his incarcerated father sent to him. But there's
just this whole other world of things that Cil is
involved in, and it was just such an impactful conversation

(01:16):
that we would love to share it with you all.
So here it is. Are you guys cool with starting
with about playing a game? Sure? Okay, So I'm just
gonna throw out a few words, and I want you
to say the first thing that comes to your mind
in relation to them in terms of activism or social justice. Okay, tired,

(01:39):
mm hmm, first thing that comes to my mind. I
just felt it. I recognize that first thing in this
moment is burnout. Do you want me to explain? Yes?
Please please? UM. So when I think about tired and burnout,

(01:59):
I think about the people who are doing activists work,
whether they be in the United States or abroad or globally, um,
who are just putting in work and who are not
properly funded, and who are just doing this work because
they care about this work and they really want to
affect change. Um. And so I can really see, depending

(02:24):
on the issue that you're working on, it can be
really it can weigh on your heart, it can weigh
on your spirit. So it's no surprise to me that
people are tired. And I think there's a term that
people throw around called burnout, where someone is like, Okay,
I'm gonna stop organizing and I'm going to be a farmer,
or I'm gonna stop organizing and I'm gonna work for

(02:45):
the corporate for a corporation because I just I'm just tired.
So that's what came to mind. Okay, cool. The next
word is loud, woud. First phrase that came to mind
was turn up, turn up, get loud. I'm loud. I

(03:07):
like being loud, and it reminds me of last year.
So I'm an intersex activist, and as an intersex activists,
I advocate for children, young adults, and infants that are
born with bodies, sex traits, genitals, chromosomes that exists outside

(03:30):
of what we consider normal for male and female, outside
of this gender binary. And we planned an action in
Chicago in front of the the Lury Children's Hospital and we
were loud. We were loud. There was a cross section
of activists who were there, and it was great to
be supported by different movements, people from trans movements, black

(03:53):
liberation movements, queer folks. And when you said that, the
first image that came to mind was pigeon, my comrade,
my homie, my best friend, on the bullhorn. Being loud
just really kind of screaming, not screaming, but yelling. Uh,

(04:14):
because we were in front of Larry Children's Hospital, was
tall building and projecting the the sound upwards. Right. Um.
So it's like I feel like we have to raise
our voices in some ways to be heard, especially for
those of among us who are the most marginalized, uh,

(04:36):
the ones who are being persecuted in society given our
current administration. So I think it requires us to be
loud to push and advocate for our civil and human rights.
The next word is anger. Anger. So the another a phrase,

(05:00):
you say, what comes to mind? This is a good game. Um.
What comes to mind is Marvin Gay And so he
recorded I Think I Forgot the Year. But he recorded
an album called Here My Dear. So he was getting
the divorce from his wife Anne, and as part of
the settlement because she won UM on his next album,

(05:24):
he had to give her the proceeds because I think
it was like a one million dollar divorce settlement. And
so he went into the studio and I think it
was probably one of his best albums because he just
allowed himself to be creative. He was just like, I'm
just gonna pour out my spirit. I'm just gonna experiment
because he actually wanted to be allowed singer, so he

(05:47):
just allowed himself to just really be creative. And I
think that's probably some of the best medicine if you're
an artist. And so it totally sank themselves were so low.
The critics came after the album like, this is the
worst album of his whole career, because I've got the
album that preceded it, but it made him popular. It

(06:11):
was like, what's going on? That was the album so
compared to this album? People were like, Oh, this is horrible,
So what was wild about that? One of the tracks
UM on the albums called anger, right, and I think
he really embodied anger on the track. He was like
anger when this flaming hats, you know. And I was like, wow,

(06:34):
Like sometimes I think about that, um, when you can
kind of feel and kind of embody that race, because
I think we live in a society where anger, especially
if you're black, right, we're not allowed to be angry,
you know. And I do feel like for me, what

(06:56):
I say, as a person who's black, per so, who's
intersex UM, person who's queer, um, I believe in righteous
anger and I believe it's a response to the conditions
in which we're living. Um. So yeah, those those my
thoughts about anger. Cool. Um, the next word is a woke.

(07:19):
Oh let me see first. My I'm telling you you
want the real real m. The first word that comes
to my mind is disgusted. Oh man, um, I'll keep
it one. I hate to turn woke. I hate to
turn woke so annoying. And it's annoying because I feel

(07:41):
like the people who describe themselves as woke are the
most annoying people to me, you know. I'm like, so,
if you're woke, is everyone else sleeping? Like? I think
we're in various stages of being aware, right, And I
think sometimes there are those there are those of us
who see the conditions, who see what's going on, and

(08:04):
it's it doesn't mean that we're not woke. It means
that purposefully we're probably in denial. Right. Very that's very real,
you know, because we have a lot of learning we
have to do right for real, for real, you know.
So I think for me, I think what kind of
establishes this hierarchy of knowledge? Right? Like, I'm so woke,

(08:29):
I know what's going on, and it's just like I
think we need to be humble first and foremost. I
think we really need to always. Like you said, there's
a lot of unlearning that needs to happen. Um. For me,
it's gonna be a lifetime of unlearning because the conditions
in which we exists and the things even on psychic levels,

(08:50):
of what we're told about what is right, what is
not right, what is beautiful, what is not beautiful? How
do you present? Like? These are things that we have
learned intrinsically that we have to unlearn. So I am
very skeptical of people who describe themselves as woke. You know,
that's understandable. So we'll move on to the next word,

(09:12):
which is ally mm hmmm. First word it comes to
mind is complicated. So I don't know if you've been
in a workshop where people go around and they're like
name prefer gender pronoun or name and pronoun And I'm

(09:32):
just like, I'm sitting in my chair seething and feeling
really uncomfortable and like, huh, because I feel like, when
we talk about ally ship, what are we willing to
do to be allies to someone? How uncomfortable are we
willing to make ourselves in order to be allies? Right?

(09:54):
Um so, I think you know, to use gender as
an example. So for me, my pronouns quote unquotes are
like he and him. And I've been in spaces where
people are like, well like literally come up to me
and bombard me like, oh yeah, you know, what's your pronouns?

(10:15):
Don't even know my name, don't even like know anything
about me, and they want to know my pronouns, right,
and they consider themselves allies, And I'm just like, where
where is the humanity? Right? Um? And I think sometimes
it's like allies can get kind of full of themselves, right,

(10:39):
They're like, oh, you know, I'm an ally you know.
So for example, a guy might be like, you know,
I'm a feminist. I'm an ally with women meanwhile saying
and doing things that are so problematic, right. Um So
I feel like with ally ship, like how are we committed?
Like you said, are we committed to that unlearning over time?

(11:00):
Because there's a lot if I want to be an
ally ship with someone like, say, for an instance, someone
who's disabled, there's just so many parts of that experience
that I'm not going to know. So I can be
an ally, but I have to be committed to unlearning
things and to learn things about people with disabilities. I

(11:22):
can I think for me, I can call myself an ally,
but it's a provisional term for me because I always
need to be humble. I love that, And it kind
of sounds too like you're saying like you need to
take the time to listen as well, like people aren't
doing enough listening. That's real talking. People will be talking
like a timeline, like a news feed. Real talk. Let's

(11:45):
not talking about news feeds. You know, I forgot your
millennium about the next word is liberation, mm hmm. It's
so it makes me think about freedom. I love using
that term, and I think sometimes it's a grandiose term. Liberation, right,

(12:06):
that's the term that I really love to use. It's
almost like, so we're in Atlanta. We're in a city
that gave birth to Martin Luther King and he I
don't know whether he got it from someone or he
came up with this um, but there's an idea of

(12:27):
the beloved community on earth, right, like, how do we
create that beloved community? So for me, whenever I talk
about I always use that term liberation. When I talk
about intersex liberation, when I talk about black liberation. When
I talk about queer liberation, for me, it envisions a utopia.

(12:49):
And I don't know if a utopia exists on earth
right because right now things in the US are looking
kind of dystopic, right, um. But I think it's something
that takes us up and beyond our current circumstances. So
we're in the South, they're very deep roots in the South.

(13:11):
My family has roots in the South. My my mother
was from North Carolina. My father was born and raised
in Brooklyn, but his dad was from Mississippi, his mother
was from Alabama. They have those roots there. A lot
of black people have roots in the South. And so
you know, as a I'm a college artist. So as
a college artist, one of my um the people that

(13:34):
I love to reference as Harriet Tubman. It's a shame
that they're trying to put on the twenty dollar bill,
such hypocrisy. But for her and other people who were confined,
who were enslaved, for them to imagine freedom was insane
because the conditions at that time meant that they could

(13:56):
not be free, right, So they had a vision of
liberation that was well beyond their current circumstances. So for me,
in this dystopic framework. I'm like, what does it mean
to be free? What does it mean to imagine liberation
when everyone around you is saying that's impossible? And so

(14:21):
for me, it's like the fortitude. It's the fortitude that's
the transgression of it that really inspires me. So can
you just tell me a little bit about your upbringing,
your background, um, your personal story, Like it seems that
like your activism is really imbute with a lot of
your personal story and uh, like you talk about like

(14:42):
you have a really a fondness for the Bronx and
like your childhood, like you have great you know, memories
that you really talk about UM and your experiences in
the medical system and all that. Like, I guess I'm
wondering too while as you think about talking about your
own personal story, like what is it like to put
yourself on the world stage, like that does it feel necessary?

(15:03):
And like how is it? How important is it for
you to tell your specific story like you this is
about you when you're talking. Oh yeah, I think that's
an amazing question. I don't know why I got all emotional.
I just feeling emotional lately, man, so recently I had UM,

(15:31):
I think you would appreciate this as a writer. Um,
I had an essay published in this magazine. It's a
Southern magazine called Scallawag, And you know I talked about
my mom because she died last year, and I'm working
on this documentary about my dad. And the way I

(15:52):
like to think about those things sort of using their story,
using my story, is to talk about how we are
so viving or how we have survived the United States,
and even when we die, how we can how our
spirits kind of speak to that testimony, or that our

(16:14):
spirits testify about what it means to survive the United States.
And so I think for me, as and an intersex activists,
I cannot divorce myself from my blackness or my queerness
because it's all happening at the same time. And I

(16:38):
think it's my duty and my obligation in a long
line of people who have came before me, to be
brave and to assert myself and to let people know
that I existed, right so when I die, because that's
an inevitability, people can say there was this person that

(16:59):
existed in his three his name was Shaun sip for Wall.
These are the things that he talked about he left
evidence that he existed, right. Um. He refused to kind
of be boxed in. UM, he complicated things. UM. And
So I think in in that survival, in that surviving

(17:21):
the United States, I think it's I only have one voice.
I'm only one person. But if I can use my
voice and my words and my body for the liberation
of other people so that they may use their voice
and use their words to free more people than God,
damn it, so be it. You know. That's that's if

(17:43):
that's what I'm tasked with to do. That is what
should be done. So that's why I do this work,
you know, because I think we never, given our history
as black folks, we never ever um, we banded together

(18:04):
and we knew our survival, collect our survival was based
on collective survival, and that we needed to always be
critical of this society in which we live, UM, and
that we should never be comfortable. I think there's a
moment at which we need to rest. I think resting
is important. I think our hearts need to rest our,

(18:25):
spirits need to rest. And I think we should always um,
we should always be vigilant and always be moving towards
like this. This I guess dream or on this path
of like liberation because we owe it to the people
who will come after us, you know. So that's why

(18:49):
that's why I share my That's why I share my story.
That's why my story feels important. We'll be right back
after this quick break. So you mentioned that you do
college art. I'm curious about how that art play is
a part in your activism. How do they work together? Um? So,

(19:09):
as a college artist, I used found objects, right, and
I believe that these objects come together to create new things.
And the work I create is a reflection of the circumstances.
But I think it also I think as an artist,

(19:31):
I feel that I'm a medium through which like spirit
can live and talk and breathe and sort of kind
of appear on a two dimensional surface. And so the
themes that I um engage or employ are themes and um,

(19:51):
black liberation, um, the extra judicial killings of black people. Um.
But I think I also use my work to speak
to power. Right, So the people in my in my
all works are not people who are victims or play
into tropes that were well familiar with, right, Like, how

(20:12):
can we use the spiritual to actually empower people? I
don't center power in my work, right, Like I center
the most marginalized in my work, and I kind of
exalt them or give them dignity. Right. So there was
a piece that I just did about President Trump and
Paul Ryan's in there, and in the background there's a um,

(20:35):
a poor, poor white woman, right, And the title of
it was and now they know, but now I'm sort
of I think the title of it now would be
the Great White Lie, right, because Trump came in as
like a hero. He was like, I'm the great White Hope.
He's like Obama gave black people hope, I'm gonna give
white people hope, right, And he lied to them. He
totally lied to them, because he's like what I believe

(20:57):
in his money, that's what I actually believe in. But
in this piece, you're drawn to the woman, right. You
see Trump, he's like this big figure, but your eyes
are directly drawn to the white woman who's in black
and white and Trump's in color. Right. And so the
thing is is like for me, it's always centering like

(21:18):
the most marginalizes of my work, Like I sent her
black women, I sent her like queerness, like it's directly
related to my spiritual practice is related to my activism.
It all ties in. Okay, So can you tell me
about your documentary? Um? What is about? Um? So, my
documentary is called Letters Tune onborn Son, and I think

(21:41):
it comes out of my experience of being an intersex activist.
And I think I have a really complicated story to tell.
But I think sometimes with media, media wants you to
tell a certain story. Right. They were like, oh, we
want to talk you talk about being black or black,
intersex or intersex. And I'm like, oh, there's a there's layers, right,

(22:02):
We're not divorced from our layers. I think sometimes we
divorce ourselves from our layers for safety, survival and belonging,
but we're not divorced from our layers. So this documentary
is about my dad who in nineteen nine, he was
arrested by the New York Police Department and he was
incarcerated for four years. He was charged with attempted murder

(22:25):
and he eventually died in prison from eight I think
it's so profound about that. One one profound thing is
that that was the last time I saw him alive.
And it put it in a larger context of state violence.
This is the violence that people live with on a
daily level. Um, we see it in an international stage.

(22:49):
And given that I grew up in the United States,
the United States is my context. I talked about state
violence as it exists right now. And so, oh, he
was arrested, and I think that was a defining moment
for me as a young person, to have my parents
snatched away and never seen again. It's a traumatic moment.

(23:15):
And so probably like two or three years ago, my
mom gave me a packet thick packet of um my
dad's letters that he wrote while he was in prison.
He wrote to me, he wrote to my mom. He
wrote over a thousand letters, one for every day that
he was incarcerated. And those letters, when I read those letters,

(23:38):
I just all these memories started coming back, things that
I had suppressed, right because I think to put my
life in a context, we're talking about the war on drugs.
We're talking about crack flooding inner city communities, destroying like
black families. There were a lot of children that ended
up and forced to care as a result of crack

(23:59):
impacting people those families. And we're talking about the rapid
expansion of like the prison prison industrial complex that it's
just like man sometimes. But you know, you had the
rapid expansion of incarcerating the poor, the black, the most marginalized,

(24:20):
the people with mental health issues. And so my dad
existed at the cross section of all those. He had
mental health issues, he was cracked, addicted, he was substance using,
and he was black. And so when I read those letters,
it brought back all these memories that I guess I

(24:40):
had suppressed, right because I think in that moment, during
that time, like I was just trying to survive, like
I didn't there was so much instability in my life
at that time. I think I was just reacting to
my environment and not acting. And I think the letters
and the responses to these letters is my way of,
right creating this documentary to be an actor, not necessarily acting,

(25:05):
but to actually be like, this is his story and
this is my story. And there's this intersect story that
he had the son that he always wanted but never
knew he had, right who became his son. So it's
like almost like there's the I guess the three dimensional
life physical life conversation, and there's also a spiritual conversation, right,

(25:31):
because I do I do believe spiritually I believe that
we communicate with ancestors, and ancestors communicate with us. Um
so I believe spiritually he's somewhere and he's so much
bigger than I can even imagine. But this is like
my way of like filling in that gap of the
time that he was in prison, Like, these are the

(25:52):
things that you missed out on for me, and these
are things that happened to me that you probably never knew.
I'mly interested in the way you speak about it, like
as you being a microcosm for this larger like amplifying
a larger conversation essentially on what you're doing. And it
seems like activists are so often a voice for the voiceless,

(26:13):
like whether that's for people who are too young, are
no longer alive to speak for themselves. And I'm wondering,
how does having the burden of burden of just being
your own person but also taking on other people's issues,
tackling those two together, how does that affect your role
as an activist having your own, you know, your own issues,

(26:36):
and also taking on others and amplifying those. I think
the one thing that comes to mind, it's it's a
little bit of a jumble. So I'm gonna trying to
lay it out as best as they can. Um. I
think there's something to be said about really for me,
when I come into something, I do it with all

(26:58):
my heart and soul. And so a few years ago,
I was sort of like in leadership at this organization,
and I think in part I left because I didn't
feel supported as a leader. I didn't feel supported, And
I think I feel like our institutions are set up
not to support black people in leadership. Right. I think

(27:21):
it's endemic. I think it's an endemic issue. And Obama.
You know, Obama wasn't perfect, but Obama didn't have a chance, right. Um.
And So I think for me, I always try to
bring in an intersectional lens or focus to my work.
That word intersectional gets thrown around so much, and I

(27:44):
try to bring other people with me. And I think
I've had my heartbroken at times because I want those
those communities that I'm advocating for, I want them to
care as much as by me as I do about them. Right. So,
I want black people to care as much about intersex

(28:05):
issues as I love black people. I want intersex folks
to be as passionate about black liberation as I am
passionate about intersex issues, right, and so I think, if
I'm honest, I think there have been times when my
heart has been broken and I felt sad and I

(28:27):
felt angry. And I think it's those times that I've
had to step back or step away or just do
things that I just I'm really you know, focus on art,
focus on my dog, you know. Um So I think, yeah,
I think for me, what has been powerful is being

(28:48):
able to connect with like my emotions enough to feel
those things. Um. So if I haven't answered your question,
that's good. Um that brings to mind. You know, how
is it that you feel motivated to stay active when

(29:10):
it feels like no progress is being made? If it
ever does feel like no progress is being made? Eaves Man, thieves,
are you like a fly on the wall and some
of these meetings like I saw a black panther turned
into a fly? Um? Yes, I have that? What content technology?

(29:32):
You know? You know? Um, I had to be honest, Eaves,
I don't know. I don't know. I think I have
this burning desire for justice. I think I have this
this desire for liberation and freedom. The way I live
my life is about freedom, and so I feel like

(29:54):
it's not enough for me to be free, like I
want other people to be free. Um. I think I
went through that recently, you know, the heartbreak that I
was telling you about. Um, that was something very recent
for me in the last few years, and I felt
very jaded, and for me, it was just a matter

(30:16):
of refocusing. Right. So, like while back, I'll take it
a little bit further background two thousand five, Like for me,
as an early activist, like I would be like really
just upset about everything, right, be like I need to
tell you about yourself, blah blah blah, You're so fucked up.

(30:39):
And I think as I've gotten older, I've been like,
mm hmmm, let me pick and choose my battles, right,
And I think there's also something about redirecting, redirecting my
focus and redirecting my energy. And so for me, when
I experienced that heartbreak that I was talking about, I
was like, well, what can I it into? And so

(31:01):
for me, you know, talking to my homie, my comrade
Pigeon is just like how can we So we have
like this loose, very loose, not structured kind of project
called like the Intersex Justice Project where we're actually kind
of putting like our our desires for like our like
I love for our people, our love for liberation, and

(31:22):
we're putting that into really confronting hospitals about what they're
continuing to do the intersex children and infants. So for me,
that's an example, right experiencing this heartbreak, feeling like really
heartbroken by the intersex community that they're not taking on
you know, black liberation right the way that I would

(31:43):
like to see it, feeling really kind of use and
abused as like a leader, and then being like, well,
how can I redirect that and to something I really
care about? Right, Like I really care about these parts
of my identity, Like how can I redirect that focus
into something that I want to do? And I think
for me that reduces the resentment, It reduces the bitterness

(32:06):
where I can actually be like, Okay, I'm I'm living
on purpose. I'm doing what makes me happy that you know,
keeps me in alignment with the creator. When you mentioned,
you know, redirecting your focus, I guess that makes me
think a lot about efficiency and like, you know, how
we also have to recognize that a lot of different

(32:28):
people are also active and also providing their own roles.
So the way that we all come together and convene
is really important and what makes the difference, Like, we
can't we can't all do everything at once, And so
I guess I'm wondering wondering too, Like how important is
it for you to have been to be surrounded by uh,
like minded people? Are people who are you know, like minded,

(32:50):
maybe may not be doing the same thing as you.
What role do other people who are also in the
community play as far as surrounding you and providing you
that sense of community? Yeah, community is so important, right,
especially for those of us who are queer or for

(33:15):
those of us who really live by a model of
chosen family. Like, community is so important because I think community,
like we were talking about earlier, like burnout, the activism,
feeling disappointed, feeling jaded, Like I think at the end
of the day, what keeps us going is the relationships

(33:38):
that we have. And I like feel like for me,
my community, Like there's this some one who like my
best friend, my sister, who I've known since two thousands two.
She was the lead organizer at this organization Core Fierce
in New York City, right, and we've been friends since

(34:01):
two thousand two, like she is, Like we met in
social justice community, but we've been like friends ever since,
and we've seen each other through the changes, right, And
I think just our relationship has taught me a lot
about unconditional love. And I think at the end of it,
when we start to pair things down and when we
get to the heart of it, I think it really

(34:24):
speaks to like our relationships with each other, which kind
of get us through these hard times. Man, real talk,
That's what's gonna get us through these hard times. Real talk.
It's our relationships. It's like folks coming through, folks sitting
with us, folks feeding us, us, feeding folks, you know,
like throwing rant parties when motherfucker's need rent. Like that's

(34:46):
that's what's gonna feed us. Ultimately, I don't know if
Instagram is gonna feed us. Maybe Instagram can connect us
to get fed, you know, but actually it's the relationships
that we cultivate is which is gonna feed us. So
you have been active in all different parts of the country, right,

(35:07):
Can you talk about what active in different parts of
the country. Look, you got all the titles, you said
it in the beginning, you know, Well, I don't have
hose in different areas. I didn't mean it like that.
That's funny that I didn't even think about that. UM.
Can you talk about some of the differences, similarities and

(35:27):
differences if you've seen any in organizing around the country,
like in different places, and also talk about UH activism
and social justice in places like Atlanta that maybe like
Mecca's of liberalism, UM within larger I guess that's for
anything in America, because all of America is that conservative,

(35:47):
problematic place, but you know, in Atlanta specifically as kind
of like a bubble in these bubbles, I guess yeah.
I mean, I can only speak to the organ eyes
that I've witnessed, because in two thousand four, no probably
two thousand five, I was like, I'm not going to
be an organizer because I was like, it's a lot

(36:10):
of work. It is burning me out. I don't get
to see anything. All I do is come home and
watch TV. Is not a sustainable lifestyle for me. So
I give it up to the organizers who are like
out there making it happen. Like I've been recently inspired
by the bailouts um that was initiated by Mary Hooks

(36:30):
and the folks at Southern News on New Ground. UM,
that's been really deeply inspiring. UM. They've been in coalition
with other UH groups here in the metro Atlanta area
to really um push for the end of cash bail
and other like, to really push like our government, our

(36:51):
city government, to stop criminalizing folks for quality of life issues. Right. UM.
So I think that's since firing here in Atlanta, right
because I think sometimes Atlanta can really and you know,
you're from Atlanta, You're from Atlanta. I'm coming out as
an outsider, so I just want to let that be
the you've been here long enough for you. Yeah, that's

(37:12):
not one of those bese like I, but you know
what you could be. And I'll defer you know what
you got it. But I think that Atlanta kind of
rests on its laurels, right, being like, oh, we're the
birthplace of Martin Luther King and we're about civil rights
and so forth and song. Meanwhile, every corporation has a

(37:34):
building in Atlanta, right. And I think what I've seen
living in Southwest Atlanta is the disproportionate displacement of like
the poor in the disregard for the black poor here
in the city. Right that prides itself on civil rights
and human rights. So it's been really inspiring, especially with

(37:57):
the advent of Black Lives Matter, just to see um,
young people, your millennium folks getting like turned up and really,
um just doing a level of organizing that has been unpressed.
I wouldn't say unprecedented, but has been unprecedented in a
long time, right, because I think we all got a

(38:20):
little bit comfortable, um. And so I think that's been
inspiring to watch, um because I think the youth energy
is what carries us forward. That I think, I mean,
when we look at social movements, it's been inspired by
so many young people, right, um. And so I think
what I've witnessed is this, this this energy, this this

(38:44):
really this fervor that I hope we can keep stoking
that fire, right. And I think as the conditions get
more harsh and more cruel, it's going to require people
to be out in the stries. Right. Like when I
was out in Chicago, motherfucker's are like ready, you're here.
People are ready, they are like watching. And I think

(39:05):
what's really interesting and strategic about the organizing that's going
on in Chicago is that people are informing each other
about each other's movements, because I think sometimes what happens
is that power, the powers that exists in the United States,
they play upon the division that exists that people are

(39:25):
not informed about other people's movements, right, And I think
when people educate each other on each other's movements, like
their tactics, their strategies, their liberation ideologies, I think that
serves as a great force for change. It might be
idealistic on my part, right, but I think I kind

(39:45):
of think about the stories that I've heard of so
safer existence in New York City where I'm from, This
Sylvia Rivera and the trans women who started Star. I
think it's a street transvestite at and revolutionists. I forgot,
I forgot the hard to keep up with the acronyms,
you know what I'm saying. All I remember it as

(40:07):
it's Star. And they were in conversation with the Young Lords,
which was this Puerto Rican gang that existed in the
South Bronx in Harlem in New York City, Right, And
the Young Lords actually had respect and admiration and love
for these trans women. Right. They were in conversation with
each other's movements because they're like we're all getting arrested,

(40:29):
we're all getting our ass kicked, we're all getting like
fucking beat up and raped by the cops. Right, so
we have to we we have to be kind of
like on the pulse of what each other is doing.
And I'm like, what would that look like, right, what
would that look like if as part of our organizing strategies,

(40:51):
if we're really like, oh, I may not agree, and
I've seen this, and I've seen this recently, right, Like
people like m I may not agree or understand the transgenders,
or I may not be comfortable with the queers, but
I can also say that, like, your liberation is tied

(41:12):
in with my liberation, and I'm gonna fight, you know,
and maybe there's a campaign that we can work on.
Maybe there's points of overlap, right, And I think that's
what made here in Atlanta, That's what me the cash
Baill ordinance come into effect because people were like, I
mean not understand the transgenders. I may not necessarily want

(41:33):
to hear about your same sex relationship. But the thing is,
cash bail affects everyone. If you're poor, you're living on
the street, you don't have money, it affects you right,
and groups were able to come together on that platform.
So I'm I'm hoping that we can see more of
that in the coming weeks, months, and years. Yeah, that

(41:55):
conversation about seeing other people struggles even if they don't
understand it or not really telles it and say you're
spiritual like to me, really reminds me of a spiritual
conversation as well about a lot of people don't understand
about connectedness and that that we're too focused on the
revisions and the binaries and the separation of each other
when at the end of the day, we are all

(42:16):
part of the same lab. You'll hear more from Seifa
after this short break. So also was thinking about, um,
you know how we all are focused on you know,
we're all different. Like, if there's one thing we would
have realized by now is that we're all different and
that we're still learning. Why do you think that we

(42:36):
as humans, but as Americans in particular, are so obsessed
with what's normal. This idea of normalcy is very compelling.
It's very compelling for parents, right, Um, so for me
it's like speaking as an intersex activists. The reason why

(42:59):
pay parrants are duped into these surgeries for their kids
is because of this compelling notion of normalcy. I don't
think normalcy exists, right, something that we definitely created. Um.
It's based on very old, very white, very uh male,

(43:20):
white male notions of what it means to be normal
that a lot of people don't fit into. I don't
think even some of these white men fit into, right.
And I mean, I mean, wow, normalcy, normalcy. I think
it's actually very oppressive, and I think that's what's dictating

(43:43):
the legists, the very biased legislation that's coming out. I
think it's filling up our jails and our prisons, um,
because even though it's driven by money, it's also driven
by what we consider normal. Because if we deem someone
is not being normal, it's easier for us to persecute them. Right,

(44:03):
even especially when we're talking about the state, Right, if
someone is not normal, then it's like, oh, then what
is it? I forgot. I saw a headline recently where
there was a state maybe it was California, but I
don't know if it was California where they adopted UM
into law that people with disabilities would be paid the

(44:25):
same as other people. Right, And you'll be like shouldn't
everybody get be getting paid the same, But because of
like how we think about people who are disabled, it's like, Okay,
it's okay not to pay them as much because we
don't consider them normal, you know, But then what the
funk is normal? But whatever it is, it's definitely very oppressive.

(44:49):
It's creating some false sense of security, I guess, so
some false narratives, I guess. So how do you think
the current state of America affecting the way that people,
um want to be involved in activism? Mm hmm. I
think only time will tell. I think it's one and

(45:13):
this is just my perspective. So I think there are
people who are getting really pumped, right. I think it's
really galvanizing people because I think it's interesting that, I
guess we even though extra judicial killings by police of
black people have existed for a long time, it was

(45:34):
interesting under the Obama administration that it became a very
central issue, right um. And I think that with Trump's
administration it's definitely been like, Oh, people are definitely seeing
because I think the effects, the profound of the effects
are profound, like his his administration and the Republicans and

(45:59):
people who were supporting him are just taking the opportunity
to channel all of their bias and codify their bias.
And these are quotified laws that we've lived with that
are inherently biased. But um yeah, I think it's just
I think it's the time that is going to motivate

(46:20):
people to action or it's gonna actually gonna scare people
because I feel like I talked to people who are scared,
righteously scared, right, like especially with homeland security, with the CIA, FBI,
Like people have every right to be scared because who
wants to like rot in prison or be executed by

(46:40):
the state. Right. So I think as we're moving, as
the pressure is kind of pushing us in, I think
it's either going to get people into action or people
are going to be moved to inaction. So, um, let's
change pace, okay, and let's talk about healing. Okay, So

(47:01):
what do you think some modes of healing from trauma?
And I know you mentioned semantics. I just want to
know more about that. Well you know, um, so there's
an organization in Oakland, California called Generative Semantics, and semantics

(47:23):
is about movement right engaging the body, So anything can
be semantic. Right, you do yoga, that's a semantic form
of movement, right, Um. It engages the body. Us sitting
here talking semantic movement. Um. But there's some semantic practices

(47:45):
that actually speak to trauma. And I think the way
I like to think about trauma. I don't know if
I have a clear definition of trauma, but the way
I think about it is that there are these points
in history that become like frozen that frees us, um,

(48:07):
that allow us to move forward. Because I think if
the brain took in all the information, the psychic information
and physical information, the brain has a beautiful way of
filtering so that we don't you know, go nuttie. It
just has it has to be able to do that.
But I think we're in order to get through really
hard points in our life, it has to I guess

(48:28):
it has to freeze around that. And I think I've
seen it in my own life. I've seen it well
do people. When we get to a place where it
reaches kind of where we're in the place of homeo stasis,
that's when the body starts releasing the things, starts releasing
the toxins, right, Because if you have to kind of
muscle through something you're just kind of like muscling through.

(48:49):
It's adrenaline is like these physical processes and a body. UM.
So all that to say UM for me, I had
done UM child sexual abuse training in two thousand and eight,
and I was like, well, you know, I don't consider

(49:10):
myself a survivor, so forth and so on in that way.
And when I was going through this three day training,
like every day after the training, like my body would
literally lock up, like my muscles were just like cramp up.
It was. It was bad. And I talked to a
friend and she was like, you're having a semantic response

(49:31):
to the content. What what are you talking about? Myself?
What you're talking about? I think from then on that's
when I was like, well, how do I start unlocking
this trauma? And I got involved with this organization called
Generative Semantics, and their focus is on addressing trauma through

(49:54):
semantic um practices. And they see that trauma is shaped
by oppression, because there's the trauma that we experience, and
there's trauma shaped by oppression the systemic uh, the systemic
the systemic oppression, right that affects people, It affects the body.

(50:17):
What has there been study saying that people don't live
is long because of the impact of racism. We've known
that it causes high blood pressure, all these different health conditions,
but now it's actually documented, right, So it impacts our bodies,
then it impacts our psyches. And so for me, I
see healing so beautifully and intimately high with liberation, right

(50:42):
because for me, the trauma that I've in that I've
received has been at the level of the body. Right.
It's like imagine someone who's in prison, who's been locked down,
like literally being in solitary confinement for years at a time.
Time that is maddening when people come out on the

(51:03):
other side of that. We're doing that to human beings.
So it's one thing to talk about it in therapy,
and I think that works for people sometime. Sometimes it
works for me, And I think there's something else about
really being with someone, really being with their body, to say,
like you can rest in this moment, you can rest

(51:23):
and you can release all of those toxins, all of
that pain that you just had to contain. Right. There's
also the element of being able to recognize the trauma
first before you get to address it. And I know
that there are a lot of people who haven't gotten

(51:44):
to that point yet, you know, so, I guess how
I'm wondering how you think that if you have an answer,
we can get to the point collectively and we can
all talk to each other about recognizing it, first realizing
that it's a reality, and then moving forward to address it.
M mmmmm. Eaves come in with two deep questions. Wow,

(52:09):
I mean, I think that would be beautiful, right if
we can talk about what we have experienced without shame,
Because I think the isolating thing about trauma shame, Like
how does someone who has been raped by their father,
how do they talk about that trauma? Or a man

(52:30):
who's been raped by another man, how does he talk
about that without necessarily confronting shame? I mean, I think
there's so much shame around. I think we have a
society that shames us. Um, we have a society that
breeds um sort of isolation and being disconnected from each other,

(52:50):
being disconnected from ourselves. Right. So I think on a
collective level, man, I wish there can be as many
people doing healing work as there are soldiers, right, Um,
people who can really sit with other people's pain, like

(53:13):
we were talking about earlier, right, Like the art of conversation,
the art of listening. Like, I think it may not
necessarily be on that systemic level yet, but what does
it mean if I'm sitting across from you, looking at
you in your eyes, like listening to what you're saying,
and like allowing what you're sharing with me allowed to

(53:34):
impact me, right, and what I share impact you. I mean,
it doesn't have to be on this broader level um
of collective healing, but I think if it can just
start there, right, if we're talking to each other, not
like we're talking on Facebook on Instagram, but really like
being with each other and not trying to fix it,
not trying to change it, not trying to be like, oh,

(53:56):
you need to see a therapist or you know, blah
blah blah, because people do that too. Right. It's just
like you come with the problem, or you come with
something that's really on your heart, and immediately a lot
of people go into some you know, um kind of
like this mote of like, oh, let me, let me
address that. Because I think sometimes it's hard for us
to sit with other people's emotions, to sit with people's sadness,

(54:19):
to sit with people's rage, you know, because I feel
like our society really is sterilizing unless it's in these
ways that we're we come to expect. So if it's
like we watch this oph still have a show, she
has a whole network her own, she's manifesting and calling

(54:44):
it own. Let me tell you, let me tell you. Right,
So if we're if we actually tune in, then we
can prepare ourselves for somebody's emotions. But what is it
What if we are just allow ourselves just to kind
of be with someone's emotions and not have it be structured.
You brought up the idea of, like when we were

(55:06):
at the meeting a couple of weekends ago, about there
being a sort of violence in the communication between a
therapist or psychologist and the person who they're talking to.
Can you talk a little bit about that, um idea. Yeah,
I mean I think I think sometimes in order, I

(55:30):
think sometimes we can be really disconnected, especially if we're
in academia, especially if we in these professions where there's
like a hard boundary between us and the other person.
I think it's a violence that happens, especially we're talking
about trauma, especially we're talking about people's histories. UM, Because

(55:50):
I think it's our we are obligated to be really
present with people, especially if they're talking about trauma, right,
to be sort of like if I'm a psychologist, if
I'm a therapist and I'm just removed and taking notes
or it's listening but you know, waiting so I can
share my opinion. You know, it's just like I feel

(56:12):
like it's a disservice. Like for me, I see a
therapist who's wonderful and amazing. Her name is Mark Collins
here in Atlanta, Georgia. And what makes her so dope
is that, um, she's able to sort of be with
me in my experience, like she really directly relates to
my experience, and in ways if she can't relate to

(56:35):
my experience, I'm still able to feel like really heard
and really held in that right. Um So yeah, I
think it's it's part of the larger conversation we've been
having about like can we sit with people's pain, you know,
whether we be professional or not in our role, Like

(56:55):
can we be with people's pain? Because there's a lot
of pain in the world right now, it seems like
people are also having a really hard time, like when
it comes to bodies understanding autonomy and choice and scent
and how do you how should we are how do
we go about dealing with this idea that other people

(57:18):
have control over our own bodies? Essentially somebody else owns it,
even though that might not be in practice or something
that's legislatively happening, or although it is in those conversations,
but just the conversation between um, those in power and
those who are oppressed. Um, the uh, that manifestation of
that somebody owns your body. I mean I wish people.

(57:45):
I wish people would talk about it, you know. So
I totally get so angry and annoyed at these legislators,
who are men who want to pass legs slation about
women's bodies that makes no sense, right, So they don't

(58:05):
necessarily come out and say we own your body, but
all of this conversation suggests that they do, right. Um.
And so I think in order to recognize people's body autonomy,
we have to see them as human first. And I

(58:25):
think the problem is we don't see people as human.
So the example that I think about is for people
who are incarcerated, people who are locked down, they're considered
property of the state. Like I've talked to formally incarcerated
people and when if they do, you know, especially if

(58:46):
they're in solitary, if they're suicidal, that's considered damaging state property.
Funk out of here. That is bananas, right, um, And
so we don't necessarily maybe more so with prison, we
may be like these, these bodies are property of the state,

(59:06):
but we don't. And because of that, by extension, it's
just like, well, because those people are bad because they're
in prison, they have no rights, they have no right
to body, the autonomy, so we can do anything like
back in the day, not still going on, but the
sterilization of women in prison, like these are things that
have happened because they're not considered human. Um. So if

(59:30):
I'm wondering, like if what what needs to shift in
our society for people to actually be seen as human
where their bodies can be respected, And I think it's
a it's a really important conversation that's happening right now
that you touched on, right in light of like the
me too and I think there was another hashtag going around. Um,

(59:53):
but again, women's bodies are not seen as there's right,
Like women's bodies are seeing for the pleasure and for
the dominance of men and masculinity. That's the problem, you know,
like with intersex kids, it's just like intersex people are
not seeing as human. So it's just like, yeah, let's
just cut these people up to make them normal. Going

(01:00:15):
to what we were talking about around normalcy, So I
wonder what needs to happen and what needs to shift
in our society where we actually start to humanize people. Okay,
so we're gonna switch back a little bit again to
to talk about activism, and that's cool with you. There
seems to be a lot of misinformation going around and
that you know, fact based evidence and research and truth

(01:00:40):
is not always a large it's not an expected part
of conversations a lot of the time. Now, how much
does just straight education play a role in your activism?
Like just here are the facts, and if you want
to speak to the larger idea of facts and misinformation
in our culture around social justice right now, then that's

(01:01:04):
cool too. You know. For me, I feel like we
can talk about facts because there are some people who
love facts, right. They don't want to hear your personal story,
They just want to hear the facts. So I can
tell my personal story and they'd be like well, what
are the numbers of children born intersex? So for me,

(01:01:27):
I think right now what feels very important is for
people kind of like what I was saying before around
people being human or being humanized. I think we can
talk about so when we talk about folks who are
being deported, we can give numbers about the number of

(01:01:48):
deportations that happen every year. But what happens when we
actually hear the stories and the impact it has on
people's lives and family structure is right, like literally ice
agents coming in in the middle of the night and
removing people, or you know, a father dropping his daughter

(01:02:10):
off to school and she never sees her dad again
because he's picked up and deported. Right, Um, so what happens? Like,
I think I'm really interested. I think facts are important, um,
but I think sometimes facts can be debated, right because
you come with one set of facts and then someone

(01:02:31):
comes with another setis facts. Um, but I think there's
something about people's stories that feels really important, Like how
do we really um share our stories and let those
stories manifest on like a bigger level. That's why I'm
really inspired by people's stories that I'm hearing of, Like

(01:02:52):
people who are Muslim and who are being attacked, or
like people who have family members who are being hoarded,
or trans folks who are like, you know, this legislation
is like literally trying to take away my body autonomy
and really is killing me on a like micro and

(01:03:12):
macro level. We can debate facts, but I think it's
like I'm appreciating these stories that really humanize these facts,
that work in tandem with these facts. So I want
to wrap up with on a positive note, positivity. What
is something that makes you happy right now that you

(01:03:35):
see going on in the social justice community. Um, I
think there there's a there's a few things that make
me happy, I think, And this iteration of black liberation,
I think it's really dope to see, like how we

(01:03:56):
are just really appreciative and how much we love each other.
You know, it may be superficial, some of us may
believe it more than others, but I think it's really
like with the Premier Black Panther, like people were showing
out doing all of the things, and I was here
for it, right because I think I'm like, oh wow,

(01:04:19):
this is like really just dope to see. And I
think just I think people were just really kind of
stepping up um and like finding back. But also I
think people aren't ploying different like tactics. You know, it's

(01:04:41):
not about like this, I think with some people and maybe,
but it's not about this like hard I'm going to organize,
I'm gonna you know, leave people behind. But I feel
like there's like inclusivity like the founders of Black Lives Matter,
three black women right who were really sent ring like
queer people, trans people right, like this is this is amazing.

(01:05:06):
This that's to me like inspiring. I'm inspired by people
who are like having conversations about around how can we
heal relationships in our movements because I think sometimes it's
in fighting that happens in social justice movements that can
legit tear movements apart. Distrust, dishonesty, backstabbing, you know, these

(01:05:32):
are things that can really impact our movements. And I'm
glad that people are really starting to have those conversations.
And I'm inspired by like the young people, Like I think,
for me, it feels like a good time to be
alive because I think when Trump got elected, people were
just like, this is the end of the world. I

(01:05:53):
might as well give up here, you know, And in
spite of that, for some people, when the shocks subsided,
people were like, Oh, I'm gonna use my voice. I'm
gonna use my stories to speak to the injustices that
I'm witnessing right now. So I feel like this is

(01:06:13):
a great time for art. This is a great time
for making art. If you're an artist and you're making
political art, this is a dope time to be doing
it right, like, because you can really get some messages across,
you can really speak to people. Um. So I think
sometimes especially when I'm on Facebook, I'm a relic um

(01:06:35):
looking at my timeline just seeing what people are talking about,
it can be depressing and I can really feel like
bummed out and feel despaired, especially when reading about state
violence and just reading about like these things that are
just like this is heinous, this is heinous. I feel scared,

(01:06:58):
I feel hopeless. But then then I also feel like
they're like glimmers of like like hope. You know, by
the things that I mentioned, I was like, Oh, this
gives me a hope, like to go back to I
was talking about earlier about liberation, Like this gives me
the wings to transgress these current conditions. I think that's

(01:07:24):
a great note to you. Did that so poetically? Look
at that you know, I know you appreciate that. Do so.
Now that you've heard more from Sifa, I wanted to
let you all know that we have a lot of
other great interviews that we're going to let you all

(01:07:46):
here in the coming weeks, So look forward to that.
Afro Punk Solution Sessions is a co production between Afro
Punk and How Stuff Works. Your hosts are Bridget Todd
and Eve's Jeff Cope. Executive co producers are Julie Douglas,
Jocelyn Cooper and quand Latif Hill. Dylan Fagan is supervising
producer and audio engineer. Many many thanks to Casey Pegram

(01:08:07):
and Anti Reese for their production and editorial oversight, and
many thanks to her on the ground Atlanta crew Ben Bowland,
Corey Oliver and Noel Brown. The Underside of Power is
performed by Algiers. Connect with us on Facebook, Twitter and
Instagram at afropul.