July 4, 2018 • 30 mins
For most kids, having "the talk" means talking about kids' changing bodies as they enter adolescence. But for kids of color, "the talk" is also about how to survive America. Bridget and Yves talk to Andrea Ritchie about gender, race and violence.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Use your phone. It's in your lap right there. I
could put on to put my hands down. Wally Pally, No,
I'm actually await any videos problem if you're not black.
Remember we only get black people. Yeah, we only build
black people right all the video. If you think black
people can feel you're listening to Afro Punk Solution Sessions.
(00:31):
I'm your host Brigittad and I'm your co host Eve
Jeff Cookee. Acro punk is a safe place, a blank
space to freak out in, to construct a new reality,
to live our lives as we see fit while making
sense of the world around us. Here at afro Punk,
we have the conversations that matter to us, conversations that
lead to solutions. If you're black in America, you probably
(01:00):
we already know what we mean when we say the talk.
We actually have a line that we do at our house.
We practice this thing. What is it. I'm Aria Sky Williams,
I'm eight years old, I'm unarmed, and I have nothing
that will hurt you. It's just kind of a thing
we practice at our house. There are great police officers
out there. There's also some police officers who are not
(01:22):
so good. And my fear is that you run across
one of those bad ones. Why why would a police
officer assume that you did something bad? Maybe because of
my skin color. We teach black youth to be hyper
aware of their behavior during encounters with police. Don't make
any sudden movements, Tell the officers before you reach into
(01:44):
your pocket or glove box, even if you're doing so
because they asked you to. Don't say anything or do
anything that can be misconstrued as a threat. And we
do this to keep our black youth alive. We live
in a world or we teach black children to be
more self possessed than trained and police officers, so we
don't give them a reason to feel threatened. What kind
of a world is this? When we think about the
(02:06):
talk and police violence, we often think about it in
terms of black men, the people who become the faces
of unrest, Mike Brown, Trayvon Martin, Philando Castile. But what
about black women and girls, and what about gender nonconforming
black folks? What about how police violence shows up in
black queer communities. These questions came up at Solution sessions
(02:28):
in Atlanta. Here's Miss Lawrence, a multi talented actor, activist,
and performer. Someone such as myself, you know, a hundred
years ago, you know, out in the streets wandering around
on the South side of Atlanta, I get pulled over
by a cop. Where I get stopped by a cop
and I'm harassed, Nobody gives a fuck. Nobody cares because
(02:49):
I'm a little young black gay boy. So nobody's gonna
go pound the streets because I was innocent. And you know,
they know that the police is wrong. Solution Sessions panelist
Andrew bit She's work. It's all about broadening the conversation
around police violence. You know. It started for me at
the time of the Rodney King case in the early nineties.
(03:10):
That's like letting them know it's okay to beat people
in the street and get away, and when it can,
you keep doing it. And people, you know what I'm saying.
And after the Birds came in, they was all celebrating.
You've seen them celebrating, hug and shaking hands, you know,
and then it was so bad about it. They got
him on tape acting just crazy, but in court they
be all nice and trying to make people feel sorry
for him. You know, that's that's an act. Man. They
(03:31):
need to lock all of them on all of them.
And that's why everybody mad right now, because if it
would have been somebody black, they would have been locked
up black people today in the in the past and
trying to settle matters like this was like non violent, right,
but they they ain't get nowhere. So the only way
you can do it is with bottlers. Can't take no
more whatever, like you gotta you gotta do the same
(03:53):
thing doing to you everybody Like the white officers, they
was botted everybody else. When you get boted, why trying
to be bothered against young black else? Were they like
anybody tale of the next on the just retalia and
nobody takes me no more even if they got a
dot for the cause. I think that's something on this.
I was living in Toronto at the time, and when
the non indictment came down, Toronto had one of the
biggest protests in its history at that time. I think
(04:15):
people often imagine that the reaction to the Rodney King
case and the non indictments at the state level or
then on or the not guilty verdict at the state level.
You know, it was confined to the US, but it
really has gonna generated this international outrage he's gonna shoot stom.
(04:36):
I gotta do my job. I gotta do my job.
Hery hey, man, all, hey, why are you doing this
in your community? Man? He's flows among and tell me
your neighbors so you don't care. Oh, gare what? Around
the same time, a black woman, a Jamaican woman named
(04:57):
Audrey Smith, had been strip searched by police offices on
a very busy street corner in Toronto. If you you know,
if you live in an urban area, just think of
the busiest street corner um and then imagine a black
woman standing on that corner at one in the morning
and you know, hanging out and waiting, and then police
officers walking up to her and telling her to lift
up her shirt to prove that she's not carrying drugs
(05:18):
because she quote unquote looks like a drug dealer. What
do you want from the Metro Police who you say
did this thing to? You know, these officers not duly
this term wi kid the hat. I need justice justice.
That could have been my mom, It could have been
my aunt, I could with my cousin. It could have
been my niece. It could have been anyone in my
(05:40):
family who simply by virtue being a black woman and
standing on a street corner would be perceived by police officers,
you know, or treated by police officers as if she's
a drug dealer, and then forced to strip in public
in ways that are very kind of reminiscent of black
women being stripped on auction blocks in the context of slavery.
But you know, the rest of the world was sort
(06:00):
of talking about police violence only as in the form
that Rodney King experienced it, and not in the form
that Audrey Smith experienced it. Andrea began documenting the ways
police violence played out with black women and girls and
reporting her fightings to a Toronto Police task force. But
what began to weigh on her was how these cases
and the culture surrounding them are basically invisible. At first,
(06:21):
I should have thought, well, maybe the lack of information, right,
So I started documenting these cases and testifying about them
in front of the Toronto Police Board, and but realized
quickly that it wasn't. It was simply wasn't only that
people weren't aware of these cases. They were kind of
invisible in the larger conversations both about police violence and
about gender based violence or sexual violence. But it was
(06:43):
also that people in kind of both of those movements,
mainstream movements sort of more prioritizing those forms or stories
of violence as part of the larger narrative, and that
now the stories that kind of drive the analysis of
those issues. Injuras says police and state violence against black
women and girls often goes overlooked because it so often
(07:05):
happens in private spaces, in the back of a police car,
in a welfare office or group home. And while we've
shifted into a culture that tells us to keep an
eye out when we see police interacting with a black
person on the street, no such culture has sprang up
to protect black women specifically. Basically, law enforcement is turning
cross for help into calls to arms. Police interactions can
(07:27):
turn violent and even deadly at times when we're expecting protection.
It happens often in the context of child welfare enforcement,
andreas is, and during policing of sex workers. Basically, when
it comes to police, sexual violence is happening in the
back of a police car, it's happening a deserted area,
it's happening inside a police precinct. It's just not visible.
Two folks who you know are in the area who
(07:48):
could then film and organize around it. But beyond the
fact that they're often happening in private spaces, away from
the vigilant eyes of cop watchers, is the fact that
we don't see black women as deserving of protection. As
a society, we've just been conditioned to not literally not
see the pain or suffering or violence perpetrated against Black
(08:08):
women and girls, and whether that's by the state or
by members of our community, and that obviously is deeply
rooted in in slavery and colonialism, and but persist to
this day. This mentality starts early. Even young Black girls
are seen as more adult and more responsible for their actions.
They're more dangerous, threatening, and sexualized at younger ages and
their white counterparts. Those are the kinds of perceptions we
(08:31):
need to shift, because those are the things that make
it such that when we see police interacting with someone
like Shakisha Clemens and physically and sexually violating her, people's
responses are, well, what did she do? Well, she's responsible.
And it's the things that make the people who called
the police on the black women, who are you know,
just golfing at the club with their members of say, well,
she's not armed except with her mouth right sort of
(08:54):
perceive any Black women's presence or voice or protests of
discrimination as a threat. Those are the kinds of perceptions
that make police violence and state violence against black women
and community violence against black women invisible. Let's take a
quick break at solution sessions, folks were ready to challenge
those perceptions. Hey, um, my name is Stephen, and I
(09:14):
had a question about police brutality and criminalization, about perception.
So a lot of black men have been killed by
police over the years, but it seems like to me
that when black women are killed, they're held to like
a higher standard. And I'm thinking about Kareem Gains, Like
there was no video of her being actually killed, like
(09:38):
there was no video of Michael Brown being killed, but
yet people seem to think that she deserves to die,
while others think that people like Michael Brown or Tamar
Rice or whatever didn't deserve to die. So how can
we change our perceptions black people perceptions on who deserves
(09:59):
justice and who does deserve justice? Thank you so much
for that question. And there's a particular thing in our
own community about how we just don't see violence against
black women. We don't recognize it, and we don't stand
up for arresting us. We don't, we don't organize around it,
and we need to stop. We need to stop talking
about this like it doesn't affect black folks of all genders,
(10:21):
and that we don't have different expectations of behavior. Like
I think the politics of respectability get applied ten times
more to black women, you know, and I and to
black girls and black transgender nonconforming folks, and I think
we need to really challenge that. So I think the
the answer to your question is to raise the question
like you just did, to have the conversation, and to
push ourselves to step out every time we see violence
(10:42):
that happens against black women at the at the hands
of the state, but then also at the hands of
our own communities. Andrea says that even people in black
communities don't always stand up for Black women women like
Carban Gains. What's happened now? Right now? Who's else set
the police and what are they trying to do? Charging?
(11:08):
What are they trying to do? On the morning of
August one, police let themselves into Karin Gains his home.
They were serving a warrant for her failure to appear
in court on charges related to a traffic stop back
in March. A Shane locked blocked their entrance, and an
officer kicked the door in. According to police, Karin pointed
(11:31):
a shotgun at the officer and told him to leave.
This started a standoff that would last for six hours.
During the standoff, Karin told police negotiators that the traffic
stop in March was so traumatic it caused her to
miscarry her twins. Karin believed the police at her door
would take her back to this very same precinct where
she had been previously mistreated. You just camera, and I
(11:52):
want you to make sure you've record all of this. Okay.
They gonna try to fight me. Do you understand, and
I want you to recall every part. Do you understand? Yes,
When you put your hands on me, I promise you
you will. You will have to murder me. You will
(12:12):
have to murder me, So go ahead and get ready
to do that. You will have to kill me. I
promise you will. No way to box baby, baby exactly,
I'll call her now, come on by that option. Already,
police rushed Kurvin's apartment, wounding her young son and killing her.
(12:35):
But in the afternath Many felt she brought her death
on herself. The case of Korean Games, people were not
willing to sort of step back and be like, well,
what were the police doing at her house in the
first place? Right like they were enforcing I warrant on
an old traffic ticket, you know, and really more willing
to look at and blame a black woman for her
own murder by the state than to step back and say,
(12:57):
but wait, what is this system that criminal as her
in the first place for driving well black? And that
is I think the systemic look that people aren't willing
or aren't responding too, because they're so busy focusing on
blaming and not trusting black women to see standing up
for themselves and have the right to do that. Black
discomfort around lifting up certain types of black women the
symbols of justice stems back to the Civil Rights movement.
(13:20):
Most folks know about Rosa Parks, but let's know about
the darker skinned activist Caudette Colvin who refused to give
up her seat on the Montgomery County bus a month
before Parks did. The thing is her outspoken reputation and
history of arrest preceded her, and Rosa Parks was seen
as more agreeable, the assumption being that Black women who
(13:40):
don't meet some mythical standard of respectability are deemed not
worthy of our protection and that we shouldn't organize around them,
and that's a problem. What happens in many instances of
police violence against Black women and girls is that as remember,
our own communities are quick to judge and say, you know,
this is not the person we want to be lifting
up an organiz any round. It's clear that women and
(14:02):
queer folks are just as effected about police and state violence.
Instead of ignoring this fact and conversations about the realities
of police brutality and how to end it, we have
to make sure that they are visible. So the talk,
how do we make sure it doesn't just center our
black sons but also includes our black daughters and our trans,
queer and gender nonconforming black youth. When I hear about
(14:23):
the talk and about how, you know, everyone needs to
have a talk with young black men, my initial responses
want to jump up and scream and young women and
young black women. I feel like this is another way
in which our communities are in some ways abandoning young
Black women. And they're saying, well, you know, the girls
are fine, They're okay, they're not getting harassed by the
(14:44):
police in the same way. You know, when Trayvon Martin
was first shut, I said that this could have been
my son. Another way of saying that is, Trayvon Martin
could have been me. And when I hear mothers say
I'm really worried about my sons, or when I hear
President Obama say, I'm really you know, if I had
a son, this would have happened. I just feel like
(15:04):
trying to President Obama being like, your daughters could experience,
you know, this violence too, And so we need to
have the talk with our daughters. We need to protect
our daughters as much as we can, and we need
to understand that policing is something that threatens the life
of black women, threatens the physical safety and the bodily
(15:25):
integrity of black women in many of the same ways
as black men, and in many ways that black men
don't necessarily experience as often or at all. This is
a talk that needs to be had with black children
of all genders and all sexualities. And it may sound
or look a little bit different or have some additional features,
but we need to be thinking about policing is something
(15:47):
that could harm all of our children. To be clear,
we shouldn't have to live in a world where the
talk is necessary. We shouldn't have to set our youth
up for interactions with armed police where we pretend they're
the threatening ones. But we live in reality, and if
you're giving someone the talk, here's what Andrea suggests. First,
during an interaction with police, stay calm and do whatever
(16:10):
you can to make it as brief as possible. The
number one goal needs to be to keep the interaction
as quick as possible, as brief as possible, and to
survive it. That's actually the most effective form of resistance,
even though it may not feel like it in the moment.
That staying grounded and not letting the officers escalate it
because that's where they get to claim power over you.
(16:31):
And the way that you retain power is by staying
grounded and keeping the interaction as short as possible and
by surviving it. You don't have to stand for being
sexualized during an encounter with police. You don't have to
give them your number, you don't have to give them
a smile, you don't have to give them you know,
the response to any comments they're making. About your body
(16:52):
that you can shorten the interaction as quickly as possible
by simply saying, am I free to go? So if
an officer's sort of saying, hey, maybe kind of get
your number, you know, give me a smile, you're looking
good today, am I free to go? And then keep
it moving slowly where they can see your hands. But
don't feel like you have to answer to that kind
of commentary. Police officers are not entitled to get your
(17:14):
phone number under any circumstances. They're entitled to see your
I D and to get that information. If you're under arrest,
then you can give them whatever numbers they need in
order to contact people to let them know where you are,
or to get you bail, or to get you out,
but or to talk to your lawyer. But you know
your personal phone number is not the property of a
police officer, and you don't have to respond to their
sexual commentary. I know that you have a right to
(17:36):
request changes that make the interaction feel safer for you.
So if you're pulled over or stopped in isolated place,
look for someone to witness what's happening to you. Ask
them to observe at a safe distance. If there's no
one around, you know, calmly ask a police officer, can
we move to a more lighted or public location. I
just would feel more comfortable there. You can ask for
a supervisor to be called to the scene. Now, those
(17:58):
requests aren't always going to be met, you know, with
with a positive response. We recently saw you know, grandmother
in Georgia asking for a supervisor to be brought to
the scene and and experiencing tremendous abuse when police officer.
But it's something that you can try at least to
let the officer know that you're paying attention to what's
going on and that you want to make sure that
it's being witnessed. And for some officers they might be like, oh,
(18:19):
this is more trouble than it's worth. If you're pregnant
and you're being handcuffed, know that being cuffed with your
hands to the back can cause an unsafe situation for
your baby. If you're pregnant, generally speaking, you can ask
to be cuffed in the front as opposed in the back,
because once you're pregnant, your center of gravity shifts such
that being rear handcuffed makes you very vulnerable to falling forward.
(18:39):
Looking back to the case of Audrey Smith, the Jamaican
woman's ships searched in Toronto. Andi everminds women that while
police can do a superficial search of their outer clothing,
anything more than that should be conducted in private. The
reality is that the officer conduct an an officer of
any gender, can conduct a very quick superficial pat down
to make sure that you're not armed if they have
(19:01):
a reason to believe that you might be. But that
is a quick path down of your outer clothing, sort
of the area around your waistband and anywhere else that
you could be concealing a weapon. But if they don't
feel anything that feels like a weapon, then they that's
the end of that, or anything more invasive. You have
the right to ask for a female officer, and you
certainly have the right not to be strip searched in public,
(19:22):
not to be subjected to any kind of search of
your body cavities in public. Unfortunately, these things happen, And
I would also tell trans and general non conforming folks
that you know officers never have a right to search
you to assign you agenda based on what your body
looks like. One of the ways they often get away
with doing that is by simply telling you to do
it and assuming that if you do it, you're consenting
(19:43):
to it. There will be more solution sessions after this
quick break. Andrea says that while the general advice we
here during the talk is applicable women in gender nonconforming folks,
experience with police are different. I told Andrea about a
time that I was pulled over while I was a
passing here in the car of a woman who presents
very masculine. Now, the police were rude to us both,
(20:04):
but they were being especially awful to her. Eventually, I
asked the police officer why he was being so horrible,
and he said, if you want to look like a man,
I'll treat you like a man, which apparently it's a
pretty common sentiment, you know. I wish I had a
dollar for every time I heard the police officers say
that too. Is that like a thing? They say? I mean,
it was. It's the thing they say all the time,
(20:26):
and they say it often as they're committing violence. So
one of the first times I heard it said involved
black lesbian in Boston who had an interaction with the
police officer who said, you want to act like a man,
I'll treat you like a man, and punched her in
the chest literally, to be like, I am punishing your
gender nonconformity physically and in a location that is considered
(20:49):
gender specific. And I've heard every time I sort mentioned
that in a workshop, every masculine presenting black woman in
the person in the room sort of nods and you know, emphatically,
you know, indicating that they've heard this before too. I
think the other way in which police officers police the
lines of gender for black masculine gender nonconforming folks is
(21:13):
who is through sexual violence, is to really sexualize them,
to engage in very invasive risk practices. No, Andrea doesn't
think this is a case of masculine black women and
gender nonconforming folks being treated like black men. It's different.
It's a way of punishing them for their gender identity
and expression. There's one I talk about in the book
of you know, a sort of general non conforming masculine spectrum.
(21:35):
Black woman was adopted in her public housing unit, and
she was walking down her stairs of her own public
housing unit and you know, put up against the wall,
and then there's a lot of conversation about, well, what's
your gender. No, you're going to act like a man.
I'm gonna treat you like a man, and I'm really
gonna aggressively risk you. I'm going to be more physically
violent towards you. And I think some people present that as, oh,
(21:56):
you know, she's just experiencing what black men experience every day,
she's being policed as a black man, And I think
it's actually different. I think she's being policed as a
black woman who is not conforming to sort of these
racialized notions of gender and womanhood, and who is being
masculinized in ways that slavery masculinized black women in order
(22:16):
to justify throwing them out in the fields to do
work in the same ways that men were, regardless of
whether they were pregnant, regardless of whether they had children,
regardless of what was going on with them. We live
in a world where the talk is necessary for our survival,
but it shouldn't be. And the enraging thing is, even
if you do everything right and remember all the steps
(22:37):
of the talk, you can still end up dead. Clearly,
these conversations are really necessary for our safety, really necessary
for our survival, and they're just a matter of reality.
But something that having the talk, are having to have
the talk makes me think about is how to balance
our reconcile the fact that we are responsible for walking
(23:00):
on eggshells and walking on our tiptoes and taking all
of these precautions, but also knowing that these are institutional
issues that the burden of should not lay on us absolutely.
And I think that's the frustrating thing about both giving
and receiving the talk, is that it's a guarantee of
nothing right. It's a it's a guarantee that you have
some harm reduction strategies, you have some knowledge and information
(23:22):
that might give you a little more power in a
police interaction, but ultimately, it's no guarantee that those rights
will be respected. It's no guarantee that asserting those rights
won't lead to more violence, and it's no guarantee that
you'll come out of that interaction safely. So how do
we get to a world where the talk isn't necessary?
It's the one that really exists only in our dreams
(23:44):
right now. But I think it's by working towards a
world where our communities are not saturated with armed police
officers and where we have radically re envisioned and enacted
new approaches to say, and this new vision of public
safety must center black women and those at the margins.
(24:06):
What does it mean to create safety for a black
trans women? What does it mean to create safety for
a Black woman who's homeless or using drugs or engaging
in prostitution? And in ways that respect her autonomy, her agency,
her bodily integrity, her self determination, and create conditions not
just for her to survive, but thrive. Challenging toxic systems
(24:27):
without reproducing them is big work, but it can actually
start with us. But I think it's something that we
can practice every single day in our own interactions with people.
And it starts with caring about asking, about, trusting, respecting,
honoring and Black women and girls in our lives and
supporting them and demanding accountability from those who would harm them,
(24:49):
whether it's R. Kelly Bill Cosby or the police officer
on the corner. As vehemently as we do, you demand
accountability and reduced terms to all other members of our communities.
In addition to centering black women, girls, and gender nonconforming folks,
Andreas says a solution to living in a world where
the talk is necessary is rethinking our criminal justice system
(25:12):
entirely and the way it criminalizes poverty and blackness, things
like to criminalizing low level offenses at drug possession that
make it easier for police to extort people who are
already marginalized. What are the conditions that make it possible
for police officers to engage in that kind of violence
against black women and girls and the power they hold
in the policing of drugs, of prostitution, of poverty, of
(25:35):
public spaces, and then, you know, find ways to reduce
that power. And it might sound radical, but we need
to start to envision a world without police and without
things that look like and feel like police to black
women and girls, and a world that creates the economic, social,
cultural conditions that not only enable all black women to survive,
(25:55):
but the opportunities for them to thrive. But in the
mean time, all we have is each other, our communities.
We need to show up for each other and keep
each other safe. And the world that doesn't give a
funk about our safety, there may be nothing that we
can do to stay safe in those interactions except for
calling our communities to show up for us when they're
(26:16):
happening and after they happen in in order to make
it clear that we're that as a community, we're not
going to tolerate violence against our sisters anymore than we're
to tolerate violence against and our siblings anymore than we're
tolerate violence police violence against black men and boys. So
I feel for people giving the talk to their kids,
but I do wish that you know that people all
the way up to we're in President Obama would would
(26:37):
give the talk to girls, to have the talk with girls,
not just give it, but like sort of actually listen
to what kinds of interactions girls that happen with police officers,
because often girls don't feel like there's anywhere to talk
about those things. So let's talk about it, all of
it together. To my sons, to my sweet brown babies,
Ka and Caleb, I realized this letter may seem strange,
(27:02):
but we don't see each other as often anymore. Watching
the two of you grow has been wonderful, and I'm
so proud of each of you. In our pride as
a family meaning we meaning your Nana, your mom, and
I often discuss how you will be in the world,
how you will handle conflict and difficulties. It is wrong
that every action you make must be thought about and
(27:23):
weighed carefully. It is unfair that you are not afforded
the luxury of being young and carefree without it being
used as a judgment against you. Your lineage is greatness,
dominant society with abateness and see you and assume the worst.
But this is America, home of the slave land, of
the free market and weird target practice. I can't pinpoint
(27:46):
the exact moment my trivial concerns morphed into legitimate fear.
But the fear is real, omnipresent and crippling. Maybe it
was when police gunned down to me a race, a
child whose reality was snuffed out because he was black
and dared to play make Believe. Every siren I here
(28:08):
makes me question if you are safe. I worry. I
know that despite doing everything right, you will still be
judged as wrong. I worry because there are too many names,
and too many numbers, and not enough reason for all
these names, all these numbers. Just how many fucking bullets
does it take to kill a black body? The only
(28:28):
skin my body can produce is perceived as more bulls
eye than beautiful, more target practice than timeless, and that
we fight to change these wrongs. Please remember you are
still bound by the reality is harsh and cruel and unfair.
This world hates you and wants to destroy you. Don't
(28:50):
let them the challenges to find joy in expressing your
highest truth. Why the world's dimetrically opposed. You're doing so,
but screw up. Do it anyway. Do not let them
or anyone attempt to shut you down. Keep turning your
head towards the light, and we, your family, will be
there to continually remind you of the truth of who
you are until next lifetime. Mommy, what's the solution, Bridget?
(29:18):
Give youth the tools necessary for their survival. What's the solution? Bridget?
Imagine a world without police? What's the solution? Bridget? Listen
to black women, Listen to black trans women, Listen to
black queer folks, Listen to black non binary folks, Listen
to black sex workers. What's the solution, Bridget? Show up
for us, all of us. Afro Punk Solution Sessions is
(29:45):
a co production between Afro Punk and How Stuff Works.
Your hosts are Bridget Todd and Eve's Jeff Cope. Executive
co producers are Julie Douglas, Jocelyn Cooper and quand Latif Hill.
Dylan Fagan is supervising producer and Kathleen Quillian is audio engineer.
Many many thanks to Casey Pegram and Antie Reese for
their production and editorial oversight, and many thanks to her
(30:07):
on the ground Atlanta crew, Ben Bowland, Corey Oliver and
Noel Brown, and I would like to give a shout
out to all our amazing letter readers, Katie Mitchell, xp
J seven, Shironda Gibson, Nicky Gray and Teresa Davis. The
Underside of Power is performed by Algiers. Connect with us
on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at acropunk
Use your phone. It's in your lap right there. I
could put on to put my hands down. Wally Pally, No,
I'm actually await any videos problem if you're not black.
Remember we only get black people. Yeah, we only build
black people right all the video. If you think black
people can feel you're listening to Afro Punk Solution Sessions.
(00:31):
I'm your host Brigittad and I'm your co host Eve
Jeff Cookee. Acro punk is a safe place, a blank
space to freak out in, to construct a new reality,
to live our lives as we see fit while making
sense of the world around us. Here at afro Punk,
we have the conversations that matter to us, conversations that
lead to solutions. If you're black in America, you probably
(01:00):
we already know what we mean when we say the talk.
We actually have a line that we do at our house.
We practice this thing. What is it. I'm Aria Sky Williams,
I'm eight years old, I'm unarmed, and I have nothing
that will hurt you. It's just kind of a thing
we practice at our house. There are great police officers
out there. There's also some police officers who are not
(01:22):
so good. And my fear is that you run across
one of those bad ones. Why why would a police
officer assume that you did something bad? Maybe because of
my skin color. We teach black youth to be hyper
aware of their behavior during encounters with police. Don't make
any sudden movements, Tell the officers before you reach into
(01:44):
your pocket or glove box, even if you're doing so
because they asked you to. Don't say anything or do
anything that can be misconstrued as a threat. And we
do this to keep our black youth alive. We live
in a world or we teach black children to be
more self possessed than trained and police officers, so we
don't give them a reason to feel threatened. What kind
of a world is this? When we think about the
(02:06):
talk and police violence, we often think about it in
terms of black men, the people who become the faces
of unrest, Mike Brown, Trayvon Martin, Philando Castile. But what
about black women and girls, and what about gender nonconforming
black folks? What about how police violence shows up in
black queer communities. These questions came up at Solution sessions
(02:28):
in Atlanta. Here's Miss Lawrence, a multi talented actor, activist,
and performer. Someone such as myself, you know, a hundred
years ago, you know, out in the streets wandering around
on the South side of Atlanta, I get pulled over
by a cop. Where I get stopped by a cop
and I'm harassed, Nobody gives a fuck. Nobody cares because
(02:49):
I'm a little young black gay boy. So nobody's gonna
go pound the streets because I was innocent. And you know,
they know that the police is wrong. Solution Sessions panelist
Andrew bit She's work. It's all about broadening the conversation
around police violence. You know. It started for me at
the time of the Rodney King case in the early nineties.
(03:10):
That's like letting them know it's okay to beat people
in the street and get away, and when it can,
you keep doing it. And people, you know what I'm saying.
And after the Birds came in, they was all celebrating.
You've seen them celebrating, hug and shaking hands, you know,
and then it was so bad about it. They got
him on tape acting just crazy, but in court they
be all nice and trying to make people feel sorry
for him. You know, that's that's an act. Man. They
(03:31):
need to lock all of them on all of them.
And that's why everybody mad right now, because if it
would have been somebody black, they would have been locked
up black people today in the in the past and
trying to settle matters like this was like non violent, right,
but they they ain't get nowhere. So the only way
you can do it is with bottlers. Can't take no
more whatever, like you gotta you gotta do the same
(03:53):
thing doing to you everybody Like the white officers, they
was botted everybody else. When you get boted, why trying
to be bothered against young black else? Were they like
anybody tale of the next on the just retalia and
nobody takes me no more even if they got a
dot for the cause. I think that's something on this.
I was living in Toronto at the time, and when
the non indictment came down, Toronto had one of the
biggest protests in its history at that time. I think
(04:15):
people often imagine that the reaction to the Rodney King
case and the non indictments at the state level or
then on or the not guilty verdict at the state level.
You know, it was confined to the US, but it
really has gonna generated this international outrage he's gonna shoot stom.
(04:36):
I gotta do my job. I gotta do my job.
Hery hey, man, all, hey, why are you doing this
in your community? Man? He's flows among and tell me
your neighbors so you don't care. Oh, gare what? Around
the same time, a black woman, a Jamaican woman named
(04:57):
Audrey Smith, had been strip searched by police offices on
a very busy street corner in Toronto. If you you know,
if you live in an urban area, just think of
the busiest street corner um and then imagine a black
woman standing on that corner at one in the morning
and you know, hanging out and waiting, and then police
officers walking up to her and telling her to lift
up her shirt to prove that she's not carrying drugs
(05:18):
because she quote unquote looks like a drug dealer. What
do you want from the Metro Police who you say
did this thing to? You know, these officers not duly
this term wi kid the hat. I need justice justice.
That could have been my mom, It could have been
my aunt, I could with my cousin. It could have
been my niece. It could have been anyone in my
(05:40):
family who simply by virtue being a black woman and
standing on a street corner would be perceived by police officers,
you know, or treated by police officers as if she's
a drug dealer, and then forced to strip in public
in ways that are very kind of reminiscent of black
women being stripped on auction blocks in the context of slavery.
But you know, the rest of the world was sort
(06:00):
of talking about police violence only as in the form
that Rodney King experienced it, and not in the form
that Audrey Smith experienced it. Andrea began documenting the ways
police violence played out with black women and girls and
reporting her fightings to a Toronto Police task force. But
what began to weigh on her was how these cases
and the culture surrounding them are basically invisible. At first,
(06:21):
I should have thought, well, maybe the lack of information, right,
So I started documenting these cases and testifying about them
in front of the Toronto Police Board, and but realized
quickly that it wasn't. It was simply wasn't only that
people weren't aware of these cases. They were kind of
invisible in the larger conversations both about police violence and
about gender based violence or sexual violence. But it was
(06:43):
also that people in kind of both of those movements,
mainstream movements sort of more prioritizing those forms or stories
of violence as part of the larger narrative, and that
now the stories that kind of drive the analysis of
those issues. Injuras says police and state violence against black
women and girls often goes overlooked because it so often
(07:05):
happens in private spaces, in the back of a police car,
in a welfare office or group home. And while we've
shifted into a culture that tells us to keep an
eye out when we see police interacting with a black
person on the street, no such culture has sprang up
to protect black women specifically. Basically, law enforcement is turning
cross for help into calls to arms. Police interactions can
(07:27):
turn violent and even deadly at times when we're expecting protection.
It happens often in the context of child welfare enforcement,
andreas is, and during policing of sex workers. Basically, when
it comes to police, sexual violence is happening in the
back of a police car, it's happening a deserted area,
it's happening inside a police precinct. It's just not visible.
Two folks who you know are in the area who
(07:48):
could then film and organize around it. But beyond the
fact that they're often happening in private spaces, away from
the vigilant eyes of cop watchers, is the fact that
we don't see black women as deserving of protection. As
a society, we've just been conditioned to not literally not
see the pain or suffering or violence perpetrated against Black
(08:08):
women and girls, and whether that's by the state or
by members of our community, and that obviously is deeply
rooted in in slavery and colonialism, and but persist to
this day. This mentality starts early. Even young Black girls
are seen as more adult and more responsible for their actions.
They're more dangerous, threatening, and sexualized at younger ages and
their white counterparts. Those are the kinds of perceptions we
(08:31):
need to shift, because those are the things that make
it such that when we see police interacting with someone
like Shakisha Clemens and physically and sexually violating her, people's
responses are, well, what did she do? Well, she's responsible.
And it's the things that make the people who called
the police on the black women, who are you know,
just golfing at the club with their members of say, well,
she's not armed except with her mouth right sort of
(08:54):
perceive any Black women's presence or voice or protests of
discrimination as a threat. Those are the kinds of perceptions
that make police violence and state violence against black women
and community violence against black women invisible. Let's take a
quick break at solution sessions, folks were ready to challenge
those perceptions. Hey, um, my name is Stephen, and I
(09:14):
had a question about police brutality and criminalization, about perception.
So a lot of black men have been killed by
police over the years, but it seems like to me
that when black women are killed, they're held to like
a higher standard. And I'm thinking about Kareem Gains, Like
there was no video of her being actually killed, like
(09:38):
there was no video of Michael Brown being killed, but
yet people seem to think that she deserves to die,
while others think that people like Michael Brown or Tamar
Rice or whatever didn't deserve to die. So how can
we change our perceptions black people perceptions on who deserves
(09:59):
justice and who does deserve justice? Thank you so much
for that question. And there's a particular thing in our
own community about how we just don't see violence against
black women. We don't recognize it, and we don't stand
up for arresting us. We don't, we don't organize around it,
and we need to stop. We need to stop talking
about this like it doesn't affect black folks of all genders,
(10:21):
and that we don't have different expectations of behavior. Like
I think the politics of respectability get applied ten times
more to black women, you know, and I and to
black girls and black transgender nonconforming folks, and I think
we need to really challenge that. So I think the
the answer to your question is to raise the question
like you just did, to have the conversation, and to
push ourselves to step out every time we see violence
(10:42):
that happens against black women at the at the hands
of the state, but then also at the hands of
our own communities. Andrea says that even people in black
communities don't always stand up for Black women women like
Carban Gains. What's happened now? Right now? Who's else set
the police and what are they trying to do? Charging?
(11:08):
What are they trying to do? On the morning of
August one, police let themselves into Karin Gains his home.
They were serving a warrant for her failure to appear
in court on charges related to a traffic stop back
in March. A Shane locked blocked their entrance, and an
officer kicked the door in. According to police, Karin pointed
(11:31):
a shotgun at the officer and told him to leave.
This started a standoff that would last for six hours.
During the standoff, Karin told police negotiators that the traffic
stop in March was so traumatic it caused her to
miscarry her twins. Karin believed the police at her door
would take her back to this very same precinct where
she had been previously mistreated. You just camera, and I
(11:52):
want you to make sure you've record all of this. Okay.
They gonna try to fight me. Do you understand, and
I want you to recall every part. Do you understand? Yes,
When you put your hands on me, I promise you
you will. You will have to murder me. You will
(12:12):
have to murder me, So go ahead and get ready
to do that. You will have to kill me. I
promise you will. No way to box baby, baby exactly,
I'll call her now, come on by that option. Already,
police rushed Kurvin's apartment, wounding her young son and killing her.
(12:35):
But in the afternath Many felt she brought her death
on herself. The case of Korean Games, people were not
willing to sort of step back and be like, well,
what were the police doing at her house in the
first place? Right like they were enforcing I warrant on
an old traffic ticket, you know, and really more willing
to look at and blame a black woman for her
own murder by the state than to step back and say,
(12:57):
but wait, what is this system that criminal as her
in the first place for driving well black? And that
is I think the systemic look that people aren't willing
or aren't responding too, because they're so busy focusing on
blaming and not trusting black women to see standing up
for themselves and have the right to do that. Black
discomfort around lifting up certain types of black women the
symbols of justice stems back to the Civil Rights movement.
(13:20):
Most folks know about Rosa Parks, but let's know about
the darker skinned activist Caudette Colvin who refused to give
up her seat on the Montgomery County bus a month
before Parks did. The thing is her outspoken reputation and
history of arrest preceded her, and Rosa Parks was seen
as more agreeable, the assumption being that Black women who
(13:40):
don't meet some mythical standard of respectability are deemed not
worthy of our protection and that we shouldn't organize around them,
and that's a problem. What happens in many instances of
police violence against Black women and girls is that as remember,
our own communities are quick to judge and say, you know,
this is not the person we want to be lifting
up an organiz any round. It's clear that women and
(14:02):
queer folks are just as effected about police and state violence.
Instead of ignoring this fact and conversations about the realities
of police brutality and how to end it, we have
to make sure that they are visible. So the talk,
how do we make sure it doesn't just center our
black sons but also includes our black daughters and our trans,
queer and gender nonconforming black youth. When I hear about
(14:23):
the talk and about how, you know, everyone needs to
have a talk with young black men, my initial responses
want to jump up and scream and young women and
young black women. I feel like this is another way
in which our communities are in some ways abandoning young
Black women. And they're saying, well, you know, the girls
are fine, They're okay, they're not getting harassed by the
(14:44):
police in the same way. You know, when Trayvon Martin
was first shut, I said that this could have been
my son. Another way of saying that is, Trayvon Martin
could have been me. And when I hear mothers say
I'm really worried about my sons, or when I hear
President Obama say, I'm really you know, if I had
a son, this would have happened. I just feel like
(15:04):
trying to President Obama being like, your daughters could experience,
you know, this violence too, And so we need to
have the talk with our daughters. We need to protect
our daughters as much as we can, and we need
to understand that policing is something that threatens the life
of black women, threatens the physical safety and the bodily
(15:25):
integrity of black women in many of the same ways
as black men, and in many ways that black men
don't necessarily experience as often or at all. This is
a talk that needs to be had with black children
of all genders and all sexualities. And it may sound
or look a little bit different or have some additional features,
but we need to be thinking about policing is something
(15:47):
that could harm all of our children. To be clear,
we shouldn't have to live in a world where the
talk is necessary. We shouldn't have to set our youth
up for interactions with armed police where we pretend they're
the threatening ones. But we live in reality, and if
you're giving someone the talk, here's what Andrea suggests. First,
during an interaction with police, stay calm and do whatever
(16:10):
you can to make it as brief as possible. The
number one goal needs to be to keep the interaction
as quick as possible, as brief as possible, and to
survive it. That's actually the most effective form of resistance,
even though it may not feel like it in the moment.
That staying grounded and not letting the officers escalate it
because that's where they get to claim power over you.
(16:31):
And the way that you retain power is by staying
grounded and keeping the interaction as short as possible and
by surviving it. You don't have to stand for being
sexualized during an encounter with police. You don't have to
give them your number, you don't have to give them
a smile, you don't have to give them you know,
the response to any comments they're making. About your body
(16:52):
that you can shorten the interaction as quickly as possible
by simply saying, am I free to go? So if
an officer's sort of saying, hey, maybe kind of get
your number, you know, give me a smile, you're looking
good today, am I free to go? And then keep
it moving slowly where they can see your hands. But
don't feel like you have to answer to that kind
of commentary. Police officers are not entitled to get your
(17:14):
phone number under any circumstances. They're entitled to see your
I D and to get that information. If you're under arrest,
then you can give them whatever numbers they need in
order to contact people to let them know where you are,
or to get you bail, or to get you out,
but or to talk to your lawyer. But you know
your personal phone number is not the property of a
police officer, and you don't have to respond to their
sexual commentary. I know that you have a right to
(17:36):
request changes that make the interaction feel safer for you.
So if you're pulled over or stopped in isolated place,
look for someone to witness what's happening to you. Ask
them to observe at a safe distance. If there's no
one around, you know, calmly ask a police officer, can
we move to a more lighted or public location. I
just would feel more comfortable there. You can ask for
a supervisor to be called to the scene. Now, those
(17:58):
requests aren't always going to be met, you know, with
with a positive response. We recently saw you know, grandmother
in Georgia asking for a supervisor to be brought to
the scene and and experiencing tremendous abuse when police officer.
But it's something that you can try at least to
let the officer know that you're paying attention to what's
going on and that you want to make sure that
it's being witnessed. And for some officers they might be like, oh,
(18:19):
this is more trouble than it's worth. If you're pregnant
and you're being handcuffed, know that being cuffed with your
hands to the back can cause an unsafe situation for
your baby. If you're pregnant, generally speaking, you can ask
to be cuffed in the front as opposed in the back,
because once you're pregnant, your center of gravity shifts such
that being rear handcuffed makes you very vulnerable to falling forward.
(18:39):
Looking back to the case of Audrey Smith, the Jamaican
woman's ships searched in Toronto. Andi everminds women that while
police can do a superficial search of their outer clothing,
anything more than that should be conducted in private. The
reality is that the officer conduct an an officer of
any gender, can conduct a very quick superficial pat down
to make sure that you're not armed if they have
(19:01):
a reason to believe that you might be. But that
is a quick path down of your outer clothing, sort
of the area around your waistband and anywhere else that
you could be concealing a weapon. But if they don't
feel anything that feels like a weapon, then they that's
the end of that, or anything more invasive. You have
the right to ask for a female officer, and you
certainly have the right not to be strip searched in public,
(19:22):
not to be subjected to any kind of search of
your body cavities in public. Unfortunately, these things happen, And
I would also tell trans and general non conforming folks
that you know officers never have a right to search
you to assign you agenda based on what your body
looks like. One of the ways they often get away
with doing that is by simply telling you to do
it and assuming that if you do it, you're consenting
(19:43):
to it. There will be more solution sessions after this
quick break. Andrea says that while the general advice we
here during the talk is applicable women in gender nonconforming folks,
experience with police are different. I told Andrea about a
time that I was pulled over while I was a
passing here in the car of a woman who presents
very masculine. Now, the police were rude to us both,
(20:04):
but they were being especially awful to her. Eventually, I
asked the police officer why he was being so horrible,
and he said, if you want to look like a man,
I'll treat you like a man, which apparently it's a
pretty common sentiment, you know. I wish I had a
dollar for every time I heard the police officers say
that too. Is that like a thing? They say? I mean,
it was. It's the thing they say all the time,
(20:26):
and they say it often as they're committing violence. So
one of the first times I heard it said involved
black lesbian in Boston who had an interaction with the
police officer who said, you want to act like a man,
I'll treat you like a man, and punched her in
the chest literally, to be like, I am punishing your
gender nonconformity physically and in a location that is considered
(20:49):
gender specific. And I've heard every time I sort mentioned
that in a workshop, every masculine presenting black woman in
the person in the room sort of nods and you know, emphatically,
you know, indicating that they've heard this before too. I
think the other way in which police officers police the
lines of gender for black masculine gender nonconforming folks is
(21:13):
who is through sexual violence, is to really sexualize them,
to engage in very invasive risk practices. No, Andrea doesn't
think this is a case of masculine black women and
gender nonconforming folks being treated like black men. It's different.
It's a way of punishing them for their gender identity
and expression. There's one I talk about in the book
of you know, a sort of general non conforming masculine spectrum.
(21:35):
Black woman was adopted in her public housing unit, and
she was walking down her stairs of her own public
housing unit and you know, put up against the wall,
and then there's a lot of conversation about, well, what's
your gender. No, you're going to act like a man.
I'm gonna treat you like a man, and I'm really
gonna aggressively risk you. I'm going to be more physically
violent towards you. And I think some people present that as, oh,
(21:56):
you know, she's just experiencing what black men experience every day,
she's being policed as a black man, And I think
it's actually different. I think she's being policed as a
black woman who is not conforming to sort of these
racialized notions of gender and womanhood, and who is being
masculinized in ways that slavery masculinized black women in order
(22:16):
to justify throwing them out in the fields to do
work in the same ways that men were, regardless of
whether they were pregnant, regardless of whether they had children,
regardless of what was going on with them. We live
in a world where the talk is necessary for our survival,
but it shouldn't be. And the enraging thing is, even
if you do everything right and remember all the steps
(22:37):
of the talk, you can still end up dead. Clearly,
these conversations are really necessary for our safety, really necessary
for our survival, and they're just a matter of reality.
But something that having the talk, are having to have
the talk makes me think about is how to balance
our reconcile the fact that we are responsible for walking
(23:00):
on eggshells and walking on our tiptoes and taking all
of these precautions, but also knowing that these are institutional
issues that the burden of should not lay on us absolutely.
And I think that's the frustrating thing about both giving
and receiving the talk, is that it's a guarantee of
nothing right. It's a it's a guarantee that you have
some harm reduction strategies, you have some knowledge and information
(23:22):
that might give you a little more power in a
police interaction, but ultimately, it's no guarantee that those rights
will be respected. It's no guarantee that asserting those rights
won't lead to more violence, and it's no guarantee that
you'll come out of that interaction safely. So how do
we get to a world where the talk isn't necessary?
It's the one that really exists only in our dreams
(23:44):
right now. But I think it's by working towards a
world where our communities are not saturated with armed police
officers and where we have radically re envisioned and enacted
new approaches to say, and this new vision of public
safety must center black women and those at the margins.
(24:06):
What does it mean to create safety for a black
trans women? What does it mean to create safety for
a Black woman who's homeless or using drugs or engaging
in prostitution? And in ways that respect her autonomy, her agency,
her bodily integrity, her self determination, and create conditions not
just for her to survive, but thrive. Challenging toxic systems
(24:27):
without reproducing them is big work, but it can actually
start with us. But I think it's something that we
can practice every single day in our own interactions with people.
And it starts with caring about asking, about, trusting, respecting,
honoring and Black women and girls in our lives and
supporting them and demanding accountability from those who would harm them,
(24:49):
whether it's R. Kelly Bill Cosby or the police officer
on the corner. As vehemently as we do, you demand
accountability and reduced terms to all other members of our communities.
In addition to centering black women, girls, and gender nonconforming folks,
Andreas says a solution to living in a world where
the talk is necessary is rethinking our criminal justice system
(25:12):
entirely and the way it criminalizes poverty and blackness, things
like to criminalizing low level offenses at drug possession that
make it easier for police to extort people who are
already marginalized. What are the conditions that make it possible
for police officers to engage in that kind of violence
against black women and girls and the power they hold
in the policing of drugs, of prostitution, of poverty, of
(25:35):
public spaces, and then, you know, find ways to reduce
that power. And it might sound radical, but we need
to start to envision a world without police and without
things that look like and feel like police to black
women and girls, and a world that creates the economic, social,
cultural conditions that not only enable all black women to survive,
(25:55):
but the opportunities for them to thrive. But in the
mean time, all we have is each other, our communities.
We need to show up for each other and keep
each other safe. And the world that doesn't give a
funk about our safety, there may be nothing that we
can do to stay safe in those interactions except for
calling our communities to show up for us when they're
(26:16):
happening and after they happen in in order to make
it clear that we're that as a community, we're not
going to tolerate violence against our sisters anymore than we're
to tolerate violence against and our siblings anymore than we're
tolerate violence police violence against black men and boys. So
I feel for people giving the talk to their kids,
but I do wish that you know that people all
the way up to we're in President Obama would would
(26:37):
give the talk to girls, to have the talk with girls,
not just give it, but like sort of actually listen
to what kinds of interactions girls that happen with police officers,
because often girls don't feel like there's anywhere to talk
about those things. So let's talk about it, all of
it together. To my sons, to my sweet brown babies,
Ka and Caleb, I realized this letter may seem strange,
(27:02):
but we don't see each other as often anymore. Watching
the two of you grow has been wonderful, and I'm
so proud of each of you. In our pride as
a family meaning we meaning your Nana, your mom, and
I often discuss how you will be in the world,
how you will handle conflict and difficulties. It is wrong
that every action you make must be thought about and
(27:23):
weighed carefully. It is unfair that you are not afforded
the luxury of being young and carefree without it being
used as a judgment against you. Your lineage is greatness,
dominant society with abateness and see you and assume the worst.
But this is America, home of the slave land, of
the free market and weird target practice. I can't pinpoint
(27:46):
the exact moment my trivial concerns morphed into legitimate fear.
But the fear is real, omnipresent and crippling. Maybe it
was when police gunned down to me a race, a
child whose reality was snuffed out because he was black
and dared to play make Believe. Every siren I here
(28:08):
makes me question if you are safe. I worry. I
know that despite doing everything right, you will still be
judged as wrong. I worry because there are too many names,
and too many numbers, and not enough reason for all
these names, all these numbers. Just how many fucking bullets
does it take to kill a black body? The only
(28:28):
skin my body can produce is perceived as more bulls
eye than beautiful, more target practice than timeless, and that
we fight to change these wrongs. Please remember you are
still bound by the reality is harsh and cruel and unfair.
This world hates you and wants to destroy you. Don't
(28:50):
let them the challenges to find joy in expressing your
highest truth. Why the world's dimetrically opposed. You're doing so,
but screw up. Do it anyway. Do not let them
or anyone attempt to shut you down. Keep turning your
head towards the light, and we, your family, will be
there to continually remind you of the truth of who
you are until next lifetime. Mommy, what's the solution, Bridget?
(29:18):
Give youth the tools necessary for their survival. What's the solution? Bridget?
Imagine a world without police? What's the solution? Bridget? Listen
to black women, Listen to black trans women, Listen to
black queer folks, Listen to black non binary folks, Listen
to black sex workers. What's the solution, Bridget? Show up
for us, all of us. Afro Punk Solution Sessions is
(29:45):
a co production between Afro Punk and How Stuff Works.
Your hosts are Bridget Todd and Eve's Jeff Cope. Executive
co producers are Julie Douglas, Jocelyn Cooper and quand Latif Hill.
Dylan Fagan is supervising producer and Kathleen Quillian is audio engineer.
Many many thanks to Casey Pegram and Antie Reese for
their production and editorial oversight, and many thanks to her
(30:07):
on the ground Atlanta crew, Ben Bowland, Corey Oliver and
Noel Brown, and I would like to give a shout
out to all our amazing letter readers, Katie Mitchell, xp
J seven, Shironda Gibson, Nicky Gray and Teresa Davis. The
Underside of Power is performed by Algiers. Connect with us
on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at acropunk
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