February 11, 2020 • 52 mins
In this inaugural episode of All’s Fair with Laura Wasser, Laura and Johnnie travel to the Calabasas condo of lawyer-in-training Kim Kardashian West for an exclusive interview. The star of Keeping Up With The Kardashians, creator of SKIMS shape enhancing undergarments, and KKW Beauty speaks frankly about surrogacy and shares never-before-revealed details about her experience with her second surrogate, and the birth of her fourth child Psalm with husband Kanye West. Kim also outlines the arduous path she is determined to follow to become an attorney, revealing that what ultimately fuels her passion for the law and justice reform is her concern for her own children’s futures. Kardashian West is candid about what she’s been able to accomplish as an activist since her headline-making meeting with President Donald J. Trump, and the subsequent release of Alice Marie Johnson from federal prison. Oh, and SPOILER ALERT—Kim spills some #KUWTK behind-the-scenes-tea about the feud with Khloé, then she surprises everyone, especially Johnnie, with her future plans for her new body shaping undergarment brand. This is Kim Kardashian West as you’ve never heard her.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years, and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
(00:20):
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply, because all's fair in love and war.
I'm Laura Wasser, I'm Johnny Rains, and welcome to our
brand new podcast, All's Fair. So for as long as
I can remember, I have been totally fascinated by human relationships,
(00:44):
human nature, interpersonal relationships, love, loss, passion, conflict, forgiveness, and
so it's really good that I'm a divorce lawyer but
also having the kind of conversations about these relationships. I'm
really into it. That's something that i'llbviously other people are
interested in too, so we created this All's Fair podcast
to talk about those kind of relationships. I can relate well,
(01:08):
not to the practicing law part, but in my former
life casting reality TV shows like The Bachelor, Supernanny. What
I found most rewarding was having a front row seat
to watch the way real people create relationships and deal
with their kids. So those of you who know me
know that my approach to family is a little different
than most people's. I have two boys from two different dads.
We all spend Thanksgiving together. My philosophy is kind of
(01:33):
the more people in your tribe that can support you
and love your kids, the better it is. And it
doesn't have to be a traditional family. It can be
whatever works for your family. And we can safely say
that we're living in a time where we define family
however we like. So as we're talking about defining families,
some people do it the old fashioned and somewhat boring way, marrying,
getting pregnant, having kids. Some are more progressive. Speaking of which,
(01:57):
Cameron Diaz just announced the birth of her daughter, Radic,
whom she calls a miracle. She and rocker Benji Madden
just became parents to a little girl they named Raddick's
via surrogate. So juxtaposed the bliss of that moment with
what happened over the summer in New York, where they
voted to keep paid surrogacy punishable by a fine. How
is that possible? Amazing to me? But it was funny
(02:19):
because I ran into our friend Kim Kardashian West at
a holiday party this year and I said, did you
know that surrogacy is illegal in New York? And she
said yeah? And I said, would you come on the
podcast and talk about that with us, among other things?
And she said yeah. So, Kim, welcome to the All
Sphare podcast. Thank you for having me. I feel like
(02:42):
I am a surrogacy expert. I love that. And I
know you're an expert on a lot of things, but
let's start with surrogacy. You've had two kids by two
different surrogates, that's Chicago and Psalm. Yes, so tell and
I know you have two older kids that you carried naturally.
Tell us how what all happened, because I think some
people don't know. Yes. So I got pregnant with my
(03:04):
daughter North and I was actually with Chloe to do
all of this blood work and testing with a fertility
doctor because she wasn't getting pregnant. And I said, look,
I'll go with you. It'll be so easy. I'll get
my blood work, we'll just I love to learn about
anything that I don't know about. So the doctor came
back later and said, oh, Chloe, you're fine, your accounts great,
(03:25):
but Kim, we need to talk. You know, you have
your egg count is like nothing in your you know.
So that kind of freaked me out for a little bit.
And I said, okay, well, why don't I just get
off the pill. I'm going to Miami to shoot Courtney
and Kim take Miami. I'll redo it all. And the
plan was to freeze my eggs because all the doctor
said you should freeze your eggs. So I said I
(03:46):
would do that. Let me go to Miami for two months,
clean out my system, off the pill, come back, freeze
my eggs, go to Miami, get pregnant the next month.
And so that happens a lot too. It happens. I'm
I started thinking about Notami Miami had happened. But no,
as soon as you like have a plan or aren't stressing,
or go in one direction like adoption, tons of people
(04:08):
that happened to in the sixties and seventies. Oh we're
going to adopt, or we did adopt. Bam, we're pregnant. Okay,
so now you're pregnant. What I learned was when you're
on the pill and you're going to check any of
your account big mistake, Just don't do that. The pill
is supposed to suppress all of that, so you cannot
know if you're really supposed to do any of that
until you're really off the pill. So and didn't this
(04:30):
doctor kind of give you that tip or no? No?
So I changed doctors and got pregnant with North. The
doctor pulled me aside because I was still legally married
to somebody else, which you know, Laura because Laura's my
attorney for those of you that don't know. But was
(04:50):
in a relationship for seven months with somebody with my
husband now, But at the time, I didn't know we're
we going to get married, were we going to have
this baby. It was all new territory to me. And
I was so scared, and literally I thought I had
a miscarriage because I was really heavily bleeding and in
(05:11):
so much pain in Miami. Went in because you have
to go and do like a d n C to
like clean out in a miscarriage. And it was Thanksgiving
morning and my doctor said, come in the morning and
we'll do it after, you know, Thanksgiving nights and no
one will see you. I was so worried people would
you know, found out this the first time I ever
got pregnant. I was so nervous. So I went in
(05:32):
and there was no heartbeat, and he said, oh, you
had a miscarriage, you know. And then Thanksgiving morning, I
came in to do it and he said there's a heartbeat,
and so I was like, oh my god, this is
a sign. It's Thanksgiving morning, you know. So we ended
up obviously having North and I had a really bad pregnancy.
I had pre clampsia. I delivered six weeks early. She
(05:52):
was four pounds, and I had something called placenta acreta,
where the placenta grows inside your uterus. So yeah, it's
it's like, honestly what people would die from in childbirth.
So you have to get the placenta out within a
certain amount of time, and you just can internally bleed.
So there's no choice. I mean, this is so graphic
and gross, but he had to literally cut the placenta
(06:15):
off with his hands with his like fingernails. It's so
grows inside of you, and it left a hole in
my uterus and so that muscle doesn't grow back. So
I could not get pregnant with ST after I had North. Luckily,
I did go through the process of getting embryos and
tried to get pregnant for about a year and a half,
could not and so they said I would probably not
(06:36):
get pregnant. So I used one of the embryos and
was able to get pregnant with SAT. The same condition happened.
Um it was a little worse the second time, and
so it was like my mom. I remember her being
in the delivery room and just saying, like, I've seen
it all, but I've never seen this, Like I've never
experienced this. So they were about to do a hysterectomy
(06:57):
and we were able to get the placenta out just
in time time, and I ended up meeting five surgeries
in the next year and a half to internally fix
the damage that was done, which was really crazy and
really traumatic. And so the doctor I wanted I had
two embryos left. And it's really interesting because when you
(07:18):
get embryos, when you explain this to everyone and they
don't know. When you get embryos, you can do further testing,
genetic testing, all the testing that you do in the belly,
so down syndrome testing, genetic testing, and in that process
you find out the sex of the baby. So that
was really hard to me to know. I had you know,
what do you put in? Do you put a void?
(07:39):
Do you put in a girl? How is this? You know?
There's that like for me, I was like, well, I
don't know what was supposed to come to me. So
I just had put in the healthiest one first, and
that's just how I did it. And I kind of
knew that having another kid was going to be maybe
my last because they said you can really only go
through it about two times before you need your uterus removed.
(07:59):
So got pregnant was saint. I knew it was going
to be a boy, and then I really wanted another
baby girl, and I knew we had that at this
point after st Now do you and Kanye start having
conversations about I don't know that we're going to be
able to have another child. I can't carry it. I
don't know. Well. I asked the doctor and he said
(08:20):
it would be malpractice if I put an embryo inside
of you, because you will, for sure, having gone through
these conditions twice, you're gonna need your uterus removed and
it's just it's not fair to do to your body.
It's like, you know, you can literally die in childbirth
from this and in pregnancy. I mean I had every issue,
you know, but reach miserable pregnancies to both had to
(08:42):
do a version and if anyone had turned back, mine didn't,
thank god. But we have to turn the baby around. First.
We tried the mug work next to the toe that work,
then the thing where they actually puncture. They turned the
whole baby around. I got a wig upside down and
so I'd have to lay their upside down. So you
(09:03):
basically have to do a version. It's like very timed
out to where you have to do it like three
weeks before delivery because you need enough fluid around the
baby to be able to move the baby. But you
go into the hospital, you check in because if any
heart rate of the baby goes up, you immediately go
into delivery. So you go in and I mean, this
is like so gross to say, but I think a
(09:24):
doctor has to put his yes. It's up you to
make sure the head does the baby because the thing
is just to be clear, because Johnny's never given birth
with they really don't want you to deliver a baby.
That's first, that's really dangerous. So you need head facing
downward in the birth canal. And the way I always
grew my babies, both boys, was their head was right
(09:46):
here and their little butts are right here, and they
were just sitting their way and to come out, so
you turn them. Okay, So it's really fun hospital beds. Yes,
I don't know. I never delivered. They didn't come me
open to that. And you're doing it after being in
this aversion bed that well you for weeks and weeks
(10:06):
you're trying to go to a chiropractor and turn the
baby and use this like sage burning incense on your toes,
like they say all this stuff will help turn the
baby basically basically, so there's a fist, you know, a
doctor's fist to help you, and then there's like two
(10:27):
other doctors like basically looped up your belly and is
like manually finding the butt and finding the head and
turning the baby in the most painful but there's no
pain medicine that you could possibly have. So you're like
sitting in the hospital bed just like screaming while they're
turning the baby. Once they get it to turn they
(10:48):
put this belt on you and you have to lay
there in a like certain position for about an hour
and then you can go home and pray that it
worked well. So to me, not so much, because literally
the next day I was like, I was like which
(11:10):
one that was lude? Because I didn't even try with Jack.
I mean I had both c sections both. My doctor
both times was like, please, let's not do this. He's
turned we can't turn him back. Let's just do the
C section. And at that's my point, I was like,
so tired and exhausted. I was like, fine. My doctor
was Paul Crane, who delivered you. He was my mom's
kynecologist and so he delivered me and he's super old school,
(11:34):
and I was like, we can deliver breach, like I
got this, Like I know how to do it. We
can do it. And I just was too nervous about it. Um.
But so after that, awful pregnancies, awful deliveries, everything that
could frustrate you just did and medically go wrong. Did.
So I knew I wanted to expand my family and
(11:55):
I wanted to have a baby girl. So I knew
nobody that it had a surrogate before, no one could
really give you information, And I mean I wanted to
know so much, Like, Okay, if you have two babies,
that are I understand. If you have like two girls
and you can't do it and then you have a
boy with the surrogate, You're gonna feel so much love
(12:17):
for that boy because you've never had a boy before. Like,
how is it going to feel if you've had a
boy and a girl and then you bring in a
new sibling that you didn't carry, Like, am I going
to feel the same? Are they gonna look like me?
Even though you know every ounce of d N A
is ours. I think sometimes you really have to explain
that to people. People will say, oh, the baby looks
(12:38):
like the surrogate, Like I'll see the most ignorant comments
on my page, like it's actually impossible. They share absolutely
no DNA. It is Kanye sperm and my egg and
it is our child one billion percent. So sometimes you
really do have to spell that out for people. And
that's and and being even open to that kind of
(12:58):
I don't I wouldn't call it ridic, but just kind
of ignorance. I know. You also have spoken about the
idea of kind of giving up the control, which by
the way, as a person who is carried to term,
you know, you kind of give up control anyway. But
now that you're not even carrying the baby it's in
somebody else's body, there's a huge I know you and
I are similar in this way, like control issues. What
(13:19):
is she eating? How much is she sleeping? Is she stressing?
How is her health? Will she be honest with us
about it? All of those things going on. You're not there,
you can't control it, and I have to imagine that
there's still some kind of pre birth hormones happening even
though the baby is not in your body, because you
know it's coming. You know what I have to say
to spell it out for people. You get an attorney,
(13:42):
that is just a story. Get attorney. They know all
family law, they know every state law. They you know,
California is I think one of the only states where
the baby legally becomes ours in the third trimester, where
other states it can be too. Know, they can't change
their mind because it's legally your baby. Um terminate, No,
(14:07):
they can never terminate, but you have to like go
through legal paperwork after the fact, like an adoption, almost
even though it's legally your child. So California has amazing
laws that it is automatically our child third trimester. Um.
So once in our case, once we got a surrogate attorney.
Then I got a surrogate broker that would go to
(14:29):
different agencies. You can easily call one agency and you
know see who they have, but I had someone go
to multiple agencies in California. It's important to me to
find someone local so I can attend appointments. Um. They
gave me a pack of people. I went through and
there's photos and family photos from me and my situation.
(14:49):
What was important to me is to find someone that
was in a relationship or had a supportive partner, had
children of their own and didn't smart another children, and
then had been a surrogate before. So I knew the
feeling of giving up a child. That was important to me,
and so I expressed those things and I found a
(15:11):
really amazing candidate. Race didn't matter to me nothing, And
that seemed to be a topic that people would ask
me all the time, like doesn't matter, Like one of
my surrogates was black, one of my curroguits was white.
One of my surrogates carried a Chinese baby before, Uh,
black baby before, a white baby before, and I think
(15:32):
an Indian baby before. So it's really interesting that there's
absolutely no d n A transferred. So it's really funny
to me when someone would say a comment on something
like oh, your your child looks just like your surrogate,
and I would be like, well, yeah, my surrogate is
a totally different ethnicity, Like it made it made no sense.
(15:54):
So after I found a perfect match for our family,
I did have a conversation with her. So you can
go completely private and not never even speaking. You can
maybe set up an email address in a different name
and communicate that way or speak. It was important to
me that to know her, to have her know who
(16:15):
she was doing this for as well, because I would
never want someone that maybe wasn't a big fan of
maybe me or my family and then is watching a
show and my babies inside of them and they're you know,
talking about and and you know, like I just wouldn't
ever I would want that person to make that choice
(16:36):
as well. So we did have a conversation. We both
both times really had great feelings for each other, and
both experiences were really different but really amazing. Now, tell
our audience why it is that you use two different women.
I used two different women because I actually planned on
(16:57):
doing it with my first surrogate again, but she got
pregn it on her own right after, with her own baby. Yes,
and she wasn't planning on that, but I'm so happy
for her, and she was so happy but so nervous
to tell me because we had planned on doing it again,
and so I thought, you know what, I'll try it again.
(17:18):
And it was just as easy to find a surrogate.
A lot of people, I think are fearful that, oh,
what if this woman runs off with your child, And
every agent that I speak to says absolutely that never
has even happened. More is what they want. This is
you know, these women love helping families, and they say
(17:39):
the one issue that they run into is the couple
breaks up and then they have custody issues or both
of them say like, well, it's not my child, and
that becomes that's the biggest problem that they've ever run into.
But never a case ever of someone tries to run
off with your child. So, okay, you said you did
you attend O B G I and appointments with the
(18:01):
surrogates like you saw them, you met them. It wasn't
just over the phone, so you met them. How close
did you get? And is this anybody that you even
still keep in touch with or when it's done? Is
it done? I went to both transfers when the baby
was transferred. I still stay in communication with both of
my surrogates, maybe not on a daily basis or anything
(18:22):
like that. I think everyone respects each other's privacy and
space and you kind of plan that out ahead of time, right,
I think that would be important too. I imagine that
that would be an important thing. And again, it's different.
My other fascination is like egg donors, and I've yeah,
I mean that kind of stuff, because that is a
different that's a shade different in terms of genetics and
biology and all that. This seems a little more cut
(18:45):
and dry, but it is. I want to know. In
advantage is a therapist. So for my first one, I
didn't need it for my second one because I kind
of knew the drill. So you get your surrogate attorney,
then you get your surrogate broker, and then the broker
recommended that we use a therapist that would communicate with
me first and then communicate with her and kind of
be our liaison. Towards the end we got close enough
(19:06):
to where we could communicate really without that, but I
would suggest, hey, I think you guys should communicate once
a week through text. Maybe on Mother's Day. She's a
mother as well. Maybe get her a massage or something
that's appropriate for her to pamper her things like going
through the birthing plan, so that if anything was uncomfortable,
(19:29):
that she would be that buffer to say, like, this
is who I want in the room. What are you
comfortable with? How does this work? Were you in the room?
I was in the room both times for how what?
How involved is he in this? I mean, this is
kind of a chick thing, but it's his kids, So yeah,
he's busy, I know. So how did he meet her?
Did he go to the doctor's appointment? So both surrogates
(19:52):
that you know we used were very comfortable with Kanye
being involved any way he wanted to be. For the
first surrogate, we both met her and then met her
husband and their kids came over to our house. She had,
you know, two younger kids, so we felt a really
good vibe from the start. I felt like the second
(20:13):
time I felt like, oh I got this. I know
what it's like, you don't need to come to every appointment, honey, totally, totally.
So Kanye came to some at the beginning, and then
you know, with the second one, I don't think he
really was involved really more until the end. But yeah,
it was just it's totally I think from my experience,
(20:35):
especially because he was more involved when I was actually pregnant.
It was whatever I needed him to be involved with.
But he was there for both deliveries, and so for
the first one he was not in the room. We
had a connecting room, so him and Courtney we're in
the connecting room. Because I really feel like, you know,
Courtney has done this before. I really needed a support,
(20:55):
a girls support system. So as soon as the baby
is born. This is also what's interesting is so I
chose to stand behind her shoulders and be behind her.
I didn't need to see full front all. But they're
both circuits. Were very comfortable, like it's your child, you
can stand wherever you want to stand. Your husband can
be in the choice, but to right, So I stood
(21:23):
behind I saw the baby come out. And once the
baby comes out, we had a connecting room and there
was a hospital bed and I was in a gown
like a hospital gown, like, so the baby comes out,
then biblical cord is cut right away, and the baby
comes to me on my chest, so in skin sind
to skin right from the beginning, as if like I
birthed right. And so then both times, I know, especially
(21:47):
with Chicago, she came out and she was like my twin.
So I was like, okay, God really did this to
show me that, like I'm connected, because I was so
worried at first, and and it was you know, I
asked her, do you want to hold the baby? And
she was like, no, you know, I'll call you before
we check out, like tomorrow, and I would like to then,
(22:09):
so professional, so great, And of course before she left,
I let her hold the baby, but she had said
that her you know, previous family didn't even want that,
and she's comfortable with that as well. And then same
second surrogate, we had the connecting room, but there was
a curtain and Courtney and Kanye were in the room
(22:29):
but behind the curtain, so they were like a little
bit closer this time, and I did the same thing
behind you know, her shoulders. I was so surprised at
both of my surrogates had the easiest deliveries, like so easy,
one or two pushes my son's sawm. Literally the doctor
couldn't even get his gloves on. He just came out
and it was so easy. And that's why they're surrogates. Yeah,
(22:55):
So after hearing all of that, what astounds me is
that there are still intelligent people that are so anti surrogacy.
And again what we saw summer two thousand nineteen in
New York, and we saw again a lot of really
progressive thinking feminists saying this is not okay. Now. A
(23:17):
big thing that I've been reading is the reasoning has
to do with it. It really only benefits the wealthy,
and that it also puts the wealthy and an advantage
over the less wealthy because obviously there's money changing hands.
Question and again not you personally can, but I'm sure
now having done this a couple of times and spoken
about it, what's the range on how much something like
(23:37):
this cost? And of those costs, how much of that
goes to the surrogate versus the lawyer, the broke or whatever,
the therapist, all the other people, and the hospital. You
cover all the medical obviously, yes, you cover all the medical.
What does one get for being a surrogate, and again
give me a range, not what you guys paid, just
from what you know. Yeah, I would say the cost
to the surrogate would be anywhere between fifty and eighty
(24:01):
thousand dollars. And I would say it costs about ten
thousand dollars to retrieve your eggs and to get the embryos.
It costs about three thousand dollars to do the extra
genetic testing those things. Anybody that's having IVF is also
doing right, even if they're having the baby bed. So
now I would say it would cost max a hundred
(24:23):
and twenty thousand dollars if you maybe use a broker,
and I would say minimum maybe eighty thousand dollars. So
it is definitely large expense. Um. I do think that
(24:46):
I do know that both of my surrogates were extremely
grateful for the opportunity to be able to opportunity. And
what I also thought was really interesting was when I
was looking through the hacket of women that were chosen
for US, I would say more than half of them
(25:07):
came from navy or military husbands. Their husbands are in
service and they're gone maybe eight to ten months a
year and so sometimes a whole pregnancy can happen while
they're away in service, and that is something that really
(25:27):
comforts them. It provides a financial gain to their family.
I know that I've spoken to a few Surguits now
where their husbands have been in the military, and they
are so grateful and they love it. Yeah. No, I mean,
it definitely seems. I'm always against the idea that a
(25:48):
woman can't choose what she wants to do with her body.
So for people that have been such large proponents of
choice now to be able to say, you know, you
can have an abortion, but we're not going to let
you choose whether or not you want to carry a
child for somebody that we're going to find you if
you do. That's what happens in New York. The fact
that it is illegal in New York is so just
(26:12):
wrong to me. It is my friends that live in
New York and would want that as an option and can't.
Most of the state's listeners. So you know, in the
US either have no law on this and so there's
nothing to be found, so there's nothing that prohibits it
or allow it. It's Arizona, Indiana, Michigan, Nebraska, New Jersey,
(26:35):
New Mexico, and New York. Uh, the aforementioned ones. Everybody
but New York just finds the contracts to be void
and unenforceable, but New York actually prohibits them, so they
are the most conservative in this respect. And again it
is interesting, it's New York state. That's where Manhattan is.
We'll have a link to that on our website. Yes
for all of those. Okay, so let's move on for
(26:57):
a seconds, since we started talking about law a little bit.
I know how interested you are in law, and have
you thought about any laws on this or you really
still pursuing stuff that has to do with criminal justice.
I'm really focusing on criminal justice. I mean right now
I'm focused and have to take they call it the
baby bar. I don't want my version, so I'm kind
(27:20):
of in mode for that, which is like I think
heavily torts contracts and crim law. It's interesting because now
that I'm studying it and having lots of conversations with
my surgency attorney who's a good friend of mine now
and just hearing about all the contracts and even reading
over the little provisions in my contract, like I understand
(27:43):
it so much better so I can be more a
part of the conversation, which is really interesting. But half
of my apprenticeship is a lot about working on what's current,
and that's you know, policy and individual cases. So all
of that's krim law. Got it. So I read an
Instagram because I follow you Instagram post the other day
(28:05):
where you posted the plaque that Kanye got you, the
Cardia plaque, and it said, this is your life, married
with four kids, get people out of jail, cover of Vogue,
go to church every week with your family, dreams come true?
Does that sum it up pretty well? It does? It
really does. He sent me that text message when my
(28:26):
solo vo comer came out last year May. Yeah, in May,
and I think that was right. I think it was
the one year anniversary of Alice Johnson. It was. And
now our listeners a little bit about Alice Johnson because
if you, I don't know, if why you're listening, if
you don't know Kim very well, you're not listening for me.
But anyway, tell them about that, because this really is
(28:48):
I think this is the side of you that people
don't really understand. What you did there. Yeah, So basically
I saw online um on Twitter a case that I
thought just really wasn't fair. A woman in who Um,
just to put it in perspective, had lost her I think,
fifteen year job at FedEx Um, had five kids, one
(29:09):
of them died, Her eight year old died in a
motorcycle accident. Just got to divorce. The husband left her
to take care of the whole family. And someone at
her old job said, if you answer the phone and
you say this sentence, you'll get a thousand dollars and
she was like, okay, some jumbled sentence that was some
you know, code word for you know. She was like
(29:31):
a phone mule, and then she kept getting called back
to do it and it was a big, sting operation
and she was just trying to put food on the table.
And she has a huge family, lots of sisters, big
you know family, And so when everyone got arrested and
she didn't know who, didn't know quantity, didn't know what.
She knew it was shady, but didn't know exactly the
(29:53):
specifics of it. So many people did these plea deals
and she her attorney advised her not to do a
plea deal. And I think it was like a two year,
two to five years or something. She turned it down
because she had kids and she couldn't be away from
her kids, even just for a few years, ends up
getting life. And so when I saw the same first
(30:14):
time offense someone that's a non violent offense to get
the same sentences Charles Manson, that just didn't compute to me.
I couldn't understand it. So I sent a text message
with a little clip of her story to Sean Holly,
who's an attorney that a criminal attorney that worked with
my dad on the o J case. And I just said,
(30:37):
this doesn't make sense. I don't understand. Is it that
she doesn't have a good enough attorneys? Can I pay
for attorneys for her? Like? I was really naive to
how the system works and what was the deal? How
could this happen? And so we connected with her attorneys
and worked on it, and I found out that the
only way to make you know something happened for her
was to call the White House, and so I absolutely did.
(30:59):
I called Ivanka, and I felt like as a woman,
she understood me and heard me and said I should
speak to her husband, who was heavily involved in that.
And um, we were able to go to the White
House and we had a meeting and it was canceled
and I was so upset. And then we had another
meeting and it was on Alice's birthday in May, and
(31:20):
so I was like, Okay, it's a sign, it's meant
to be. It's on her birthday. I'm going to go
in and we are going to sell this and we
are gonna we have to get this done for her.
And so we did, and the President was really open
and compassionate about Alice. And I'm so grateful and so
is she, and we made it happen. So is this
a one off or is this something that could really happen?
(31:41):
Like I think I've heard you looked into other cases,
You're looking into things. This obviously happens more than we
would like. No system is perfect. Yeah, there's thousands of Alice's.
So after that happened, I got contacted by Van Jones
to do an interview and then Van and I just
started talking a little bit and he was like, you
really have a knack for this law thing, and I
(32:03):
was like, well, I'm obsessed, like it's you know, when
I was a kid, I would look through all my
dad's o J filings and I mean crime scene photos
like stuff I should not have been looking at it
and on the weekends, and Courtney used to be like,
get out of his office, like what are you doing?
And I just always was really into it. So Van
(32:24):
connected me with his law firm Cut fifty and a
girl named Jessica Jackson and Aaron Haney, and was like,
we can do this. We can figure out how to
go through law school in California. You could read the
law and you can. You have to, you know, eighteen
hours a week. It's like no joke, it's it's law school.
And we stay committed to doing that. And so through
(32:46):
that I have to work on policy with them, and
we got the First Step Act passed, which I think
has let out over twenty five thousand people now under
that which I believe totally happened because of Alice Johnson
and because she got out and put a face with
(33:08):
justice reform. And instead of reading about cases and hearing
about these stories, people saw her. They saw her run
out to her family and heard her story and understood
that this great grandmother could not be a threat to
society anymore and never was. And I felt this compassion
(33:30):
really happened. And so there's been. I've worked with a
bunch of attorneys, an attorney Brittany Barnett that was Alice's
attorney that I partnered with, and I mean we've gotten,
you know, something people out just from all of her
hard work with her partner, and it's been amazing, Like
it's it's literally what I do all day long. People
(33:52):
are sending me cases and if I feel like I
can help, I can. And we shot even a documentary
on Oxygen called The Justice Project, and it features a
handful of really sad, heartbreaking stories that my goal is
to like put a face with each problem that we
have so people can understand what you read on paper
(34:16):
isn't necessarily fair and like the circumstances behind someone's story.
You just really have no idea what someone's life has
been like and what drove them to do what they did,
and it's not necessarily their fault. And if it is,
people can be rehabilitated and entered back into society. And
I really hope that it just sheds more like light
(34:40):
bulbs on and people can see that beyond Dallas, like
people that have actually committed murderers and crimes, like you
just don't know, I said, I would never work with
people that violence is involved. That's I had this like
wall up. And then I went to go visit prisons
and I started to talk to people and hear their stories,
and my heart told really opened up. And I hope
(35:02):
that this documentary opens up hearts for people just like
mine was, because the circumstances are always so different, and
we probably can't even imagine what some of these folks
have been through before their incarceration, especially if in trial
their circumstances aren't even allowed to be presented because they have,
(35:22):
you know, a bad attorney they have, they're just getting
the wrong guidance, or they're taking plea bargains that maybe
they wouldn't otherwise be taking, but they feel like they've
been given no choice, or people are forced to take
plea bargains because they know they have no shot. Like
if you told Alice, should you take a plea bargain,
you'll get two years over life, and she spent twenty
three years in you absolutely would take that plea bargain.
(35:44):
It reminds me a lot of what you say about
the family law courts. And I mean, you both know
the law better than I do. But what Kim is
saying is so similar to what you often say about,
you know, the way that the courts work, and I
know in the criminal justice system they're overloaded, and that's
one of the reasons why so many black and brown
people end up in jail, because it's just like this
sort of streamlined process. Absolutely, it's insane, and just to
(36:09):
think that, you know, I'm raising four black kids and
two sons, and if you know, I I want to
see a different system from my kids and their friends
and their kids. And it's really insane, No, it really is.
And I think, look, we have a system of law. Again,
whether it's family law, which is not nearly as serious
(36:30):
in most instances, or criminal law, and you apply those rules,
it's serious a lot of money. I mean serious in
terms of like saying the world, but really you apply
those laws to the facts and generally it works. But
in a lot of instances, it's the detail. It's the
things that people don't always think about. And because our
(36:52):
system is so crowded in both of those fields, there's
not time. So people need to re examine it. People
need to get back in there, people need to help.
I think what you're doing is amazing so important. I
also think it is a great example that you are
setting for your kids because they see so much of
the good that you're able to do. What does the
rest of the family think. I've seen clips of you know,
(37:13):
I rolling out, Kim whatever, and it's all fun and games,
like they love it. They I'm like their go to
legal advisor. At this point. They're always asking me. I
get lots of calls, like on the weekend conference calls,
can we ask you one thing? And I'm like, I
don't know anything about that. I don't. You must get
(37:35):
that all the time because everyone calls me and I'm
not even a lawyer yet, so lawyers And also fun fact,
your dad was my mom's family law turns yes, for
those of you that don't know my my deep roots
with Laura and her initials are law, which I think
is just meant to be maybe. I mean, I fought it.
I fought it until I turned forty and then I
(37:56):
finally just succumbed. I didn't ever tell and it was
so embarrassed because it was God, I love it. All. Right,
let's talk a little bit. When does season eighteen start
end of March. One thing that I know is everybody
might need an attorney when that episode, first episode comes out.
Well that's what I was going to say. So you
ended seventeen at Odds with Courtney, and I know you
(38:18):
were just on Ellen talking about it. How can go
a lot worse? Gets worse before it gets before it
gets better. But you know, we're a really close family.
I can't imagine it all works out. Things to get
much worse. Our family has never dealt with this before,
so it definitely gets worse. Was it like a megsit Um? No,
(38:41):
it wasn't. It was a little violent. Did you see
what your mom posted yesterday and you coming in and
hitting Chloe and then the Jonas brothers. I think, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
that was like I hit and I missed. I was like,
you got one good punchion. I really that was with
a purse. That was like arm punching. Really, I was
(39:01):
as a big sister. I was like a girl. You
didn't really, Oh my gosh. I just all I remember
is like the miss and everyone just making fun of
me for missing. God get out. They were so mean
to me. Guys, that was our Bentley episode. They couldn't
be happy for me that I had saved all my
(39:22):
money and worked really hard to get a car that
I never dreamed I could ever have, and then I
get it, and I remember the guy made us wait
because my something wasn't ready, and they were so rude
to the guy. I mean this was years ago. This
is like, you know, ten years ago, and so I
drove over there and they were so mean to me
and I tried to hit her with my purse and
I missed. I didn't remember. When we had your mom
(39:43):
on the podcast, she told a story about how when
you were little, you made a deal with your dad
that you would work and he would match you. Because
there were these tennis shoes that you wanted to buy
that like my heels. They weren't there, and they were
like a high they weren't they were They were Manola
bre Timberlin boots that had like the heel. Yeah, because
(40:03):
we like our heels. Yeah. And you you made a deal,
can I buy like a ten of these on your
credit card? And I promise you I'll pay you back
with interest within like two weeks. And he was like okay,
but he would make me sign a contract. And this
is how my parents were too. For everything. Everything I
had to have like a whole argument lined up, and
and then I negotiated my brother's allowance for him too,
(40:26):
and took Oh, yeah, that either I grew up with her.
Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I had contracts for everything,
but not no negotiations. So now I'm going to things exactly. Yeah. Alright, well, Johnny,
do we have anything else you want to ask him?
This has been amazing. Well let's talk a little bit
(40:48):
about self care. Okay, yeah, Oh and the refrigerator, yes care, Yes,
is there food in your fridge? There is, there's a
yogurt machine sprinkles. Yes. So I took a picture, just
you know, posing in my skims walking around my house,
trying to get like content those fridges. I got to
(41:08):
find a picture of what they used to look like.
That's actually I have to do that. Hopefully I have it.
I had every kind of soda you could imagine, every
kind of plastic water bottle you can imagine. And we've
cleaned out our whole house to get rid of all
single use plastic, and most plastic everywhere, not just single use.
So we had just cleaned it out, but I was
(41:30):
trying I just have like one or two water companies
and just that's like drinks, that was only a drink section,
so you know, everyone of course zoomed in and things.
I starved my kids because there was nothing in the
even start of your kids. If you wanted to like kids,
don't allow for starving. There will be dusking for food
and you will be getting it because they would be
(41:51):
so annoying. So there's no there's that. People. They were
like these headlines like we're baffled over Kim's empty fridge.
So I took them into our real chef kitchen that
has like it's a restaurant kitchen and show them our
real fridge. We have two fridges in there, and you
know what else, you know what else I'm gonna do.
(42:12):
I'm going to go back today because I'm heated again.
I actually have four fridges that pull out, six fridges
that pull out with tons of stuff. I'm going to
start opening them and giving more fridge tours. But yeah,
so I have like a whole a whole walk in
fridge with you know, everything that we use and pantries,
and we were most impressed with Laura complete edible glitter.
(42:35):
So does anyone, yes, So that's why I have. They
were like, how come you have so many different kinds
of milk? So my son doesn't have lactose. My daughters
Chicago only drinks oat milk. North drinks regular milk, and
some isn't into milk yet you need I have almond
(42:56):
milk for guests, and you have to have everything. I
have milk got milk, Yes, she does in every single flavor.
You're listening to the season premiere of the All's Fare
podcast on I Heart Radio. I'm your host, Laura Wasser,
and today we're with Kim Kardashian West talking about life,
(43:17):
love and relationships. So turn up the volume, sit back,
and let's get back to our conversation. So we talked
a minute about when you were on the gorgeous, gorgeous
cover of May two thousand, nineteen Vogue. And I know
that was the eighth time you were on the cover,
but this was the only time you were like only
you US folk, US Folk, Okay. So I had done
(43:37):
a US folk cover with Kanye remember, and so this
was my first thank you. So this was my first
solo cover for US folk. But I've done other countries
and it was good. I like it. I'm looking at
it again right now. It's very natural, very natural. Yes,
that's also so powerful too. That's one of the things
I really like about it. So right now you've got
KKW beauty. Yes, And I wanted to tell you listeners
(44:01):
that there's free shipping on domestic orders over fifty dollars.
Also skims, which Oh, I wanted to talk to you
about this because I love Chelsea Hadlers on the show.
She's a friend thing. Remember running and I was like,
that's Calbo, was it com Yeah? So we were all
going to alison birthday, her my best friend's forty birthday
(44:21):
in Cabo, and so Chelsea called right before I was
leaving and was like, can you bring skims? I want
to wear skims? And so Allison wanted tape, and all
the girls wanted stuff. So I packed up a whole
bunch of stuff and brought it to Mexico and then
next thing you know, I walked down to the beach
and I see, from like far away, I see Chelsea
in her skims tape and she like taped it down
(44:43):
that it was so funny. Who is filming it? Just
one of our friends, one of the girls. It was
so funny. She is hilarious. She is so funny and
just she looked so amazing and she was just running
down the beach and then doing a whole photo shoot
on the rocks. It was She's so so funny. So
one of the things that I love about your skims
ad campaign is the fact that you use real people.
(45:06):
I remember when Alison did it with you. They look
like us, They look like normal people, and they tell
their stories and it's amazing. And I feel like every
single one I hear is somebody saying for years I
was looking for something like this. You've said I used
to wear layers of different ones and the other brands
(45:27):
that just can't seem to do it, or they're so
tight and you can't breathe, and you're I mean, you
should hear Shelly. She just goes on and on and
on and on about she sent me believe them. She
sends me notes on everything. I have a rack that's
like the Shelly tri On section that I have to
send to her just to make sure that it's to
her liking. So what's the thing you wear the most.
I love like our sculpting short I like sculpting body suits.
(45:52):
I just like to feel snug and then pajamas are
a really big thing for me. So for holiday we
did pajama as in a cozy collection. But as far
as shapewear and even the boom tape, you know, the
boot tape is brilliant, but I don't taping up it.
But I'm definitely going to go in for some of
the shorts and the waste thing, the thing that you wear,
(46:14):
but I'll remember everyone is stealing it. I tried to
like video it this morning, and everyone comes over and
just takes my stuff, even if I've worn it. They
like take my stuff, and so I hardly have any
more at the house. When I just wrote the team
and was like, I need like a Skims showroom because
all my friends come over and when I'm going someplace
I love to bring something. Is there a men's line
(46:36):
in the works. There is not a men's line, but
I've been getting such a large request that I feel
like right now, really, oh my god, I want to
talk to you. What do you like about it? Oh?
I need off later. I just need to know that
you heard this and that we can be talking about
it later. Holy shit, you're wearing springs. See. I wanted
(47:00):
there I want to be you know, have a cool version.
I already have my materials for men that I already
I think is so amazing. So i'd love your opinion.
Shapewear where all right? Can we ask are the interrogatories
now him? Yes, you swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I do, all right?
(47:21):
Which relationship in your life has had the most profound impact? Wow?
I would say my dad and my mom. Honestly, at
my husband, my kids, I don't know. I have such
a big family, I would say, because maybe my dad's
not here. I have such a deep like connection and
(47:44):
longing to the memories, and I feel like what he
instilled in us for so long. I was twenty two
when he passed away, so I feel like I got
a good basic base. I'm just going to say, based
on um, like a good foundation of what he taught us.
So I feel like that is lasted the longest. But
my mom obviously has taught us so much in our
(48:06):
adult life about business and just how to treat people.
I think, you know it's they're both really strong relationships
you can have to I will allow them. What's your
favorite love song? I would say, Kanye is only one
just because it's more personal to me and talks about
(48:26):
our daughter, and it's just you know, what is the
one piece of advice you'd share with either your twenty something,
your old self, or someone following your footsteps, one of
the girls, somebody that you just But again, let's make
this you. So, if you could go back nearly twenty
years and talk to yourself at that time, what would
you say. I wish I was more confident starting at
(48:48):
a younger age. I really gained a lot of confidence
when I met Kanye, and he really pushed that with
me and helped me gain confidence. And I wish ish
that I knew that sooner. But everything else I love.
I love all of the craziness and mistakes, Like I
(49:10):
really do think that you really learn a lot, hopefully
if you don't make the same mistakes over and over,
which I hope I don't. I love the journey and
I wouldn't really change a whole lot. I just would
maybe hope to be a bit more confident at a
younger age like that, and then I probably wouldn't have
made some of those mistakes. Which romantic comedy could you
(49:33):
watch on repeat? Oh? My god, the Holiday. I was
watching it all yes, and I was trying to get
Kanye to watch it with me. I'm like, because he
loves like Star Wars, like we have two totally different
movie types, and I just I was begging him to
watch it. So we finally put it on and after
five minutes, he's like snoring, and I was like, I
(49:55):
just want to watch The Holiday. But I watched it
by myself so many times. This holiday suace. That's nice one,
all right, So Kim, thank you for having us over
and thank you for being on our season premiere. This
is huge. I want you to thank you note and
I'll say what I say in there, which is I
can't even express how grateful I am. Keeping Up with
the Kardashians airs on e Sundays at nine pm. It
(50:16):
probably won't start for another month and a half. And
if there's anyone in the audience who doesn't know how
to keep up with Kim Kardashian West and her family,
how can people find you and what you're up to online?
They can go to here's my cell phone number, you
can call me. They can check me out on Instagram.
That's at Kim Kardashian and Twitter at Kim Kardashian. And
(50:40):
that's about Another interesting one which I follow, probably because
Johnny sawn me up is the KKW beauty website, which
is amazing. That's amazing stuff on that and deals and
stuff like that. Excellent. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
How amazing is she? She is amazing. I think Daniel,
our sound editor, said it was like not a word wasted.
(51:01):
I mean, she's very eloquent, well spoken and gorgeous and gorgeous,
very psych that she's doing this law thing. But again,
I really want our listeners to get a handle on
the surrogacy conversation because just like you and I have
always tried to focus on the evolution of dissolution and
changing the way we as a culture approach divorce, I
(51:22):
think we as a culture need to change the way
we approach surgacy. There's this article by Ali Rosen that
was in the Washington Post. Surrogacy is misunderstood and unfairly maligned.
We need to change the narrative absolutely. In fact, she
points out that more and more children are born through
assisted reproductive technology every year. That includes in vitro fertilization.
You know, it also includes surrogacy again, if you have
(51:44):
thoughts on this experiences or if you strongly disagree with
us Gloria's Dynham, let us know we would love to
hear from you. Also, there's a very important article that
also came out last week. Woman who was acting as
a surrogate for a family died while giving. Are so sad,
and they've actually started to go fund me page for
the woman and for her family. She was the mother
(52:07):
of two other kids, her own kids, her own kids. Yeah,
so you can go to go fund me and search
Michelle Reeves. That's r E a v e s. They
have reached seventy six thousand, seven eighteen dollars of their
hundred thousand dollar goal as of the end of January,
so look into that if this is something that interests you.
Thank you so much for listening to our brand new show,
(52:28):
All's Fair Hell, listed by me Laura Wasser on I
Heart Radio, Rate us at Apple Podcast, and follow us
after the show at It's Over Easy. We'll be back
next week, So see you next Tuesday. As I like
to say to Johnny, yes let's chat then, shall we? Bye?
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years, and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
(00:20):
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply, because all's fair in love and war.
I'm Laura Wasser, I'm Johnny Rains, and welcome to our
brand new podcast, All's Fair. So for as long as
I can remember, I have been totally fascinated by human relationships,
(00:44):
human nature, interpersonal relationships, love, loss, passion, conflict, forgiveness, and
so it's really good that I'm a divorce lawyer but
also having the kind of conversations about these relationships. I'm
really into it. That's something that i'llbviously other people are
interested in too, so we created this All's Fair podcast
to talk about those kind of relationships. I can relate well,
(01:08):
not to the practicing law part, but in my former
life casting reality TV shows like The Bachelor, Supernanny. What
I found most rewarding was having a front row seat
to watch the way real people create relationships and deal
with their kids. So those of you who know me
know that my approach to family is a little different
than most people's. I have two boys from two different dads.
We all spend Thanksgiving together. My philosophy is kind of
(01:33):
the more people in your tribe that can support you
and love your kids, the better it is. And it
doesn't have to be a traditional family. It can be
whatever works for your family. And we can safely say
that we're living in a time where we define family
however we like. So as we're talking about defining families,
some people do it the old fashioned and somewhat boring way, marrying,
getting pregnant, having kids. Some are more progressive. Speaking of which,
(01:57):
Cameron Diaz just announced the birth of her daughter, Radic,
whom she calls a miracle. She and rocker Benji Madden
just became parents to a little girl they named Raddick's
via surrogate. So juxtaposed the bliss of that moment with
what happened over the summer in New York, where they
voted to keep paid surrogacy punishable by a fine. How
is that possible? Amazing to me? But it was funny
(02:19):
because I ran into our friend Kim Kardashian West at
a holiday party this year and I said, did you
know that surrogacy is illegal in New York? And she
said yeah? And I said, would you come on the
podcast and talk about that with us, among other things?
And she said yeah. So, Kim, welcome to the All
Sphare podcast. Thank you for having me. I feel like
(02:42):
I am a surrogacy expert. I love that. And I
know you're an expert on a lot of things, but
let's start with surrogacy. You've had two kids by two
different surrogates, that's Chicago and Psalm. Yes, so tell and
I know you have two older kids that you carried naturally.
Tell us how what all happened, because I think some
people don't know. Yes. So I got pregnant with my
(03:04):
daughter North and I was actually with Chloe to do
all of this blood work and testing with a fertility
doctor because she wasn't getting pregnant. And I said, look,
I'll go with you. It'll be so easy. I'll get
my blood work, we'll just I love to learn about
anything that I don't know about. So the doctor came
back later and said, oh, Chloe, you're fine, your accounts great,
(03:25):
but Kim, we need to talk. You know, you have
your egg count is like nothing in your you know.
So that kind of freaked me out for a little bit.
And I said, okay, well, why don't I just get
off the pill. I'm going to Miami to shoot Courtney
and Kim take Miami. I'll redo it all. And the
plan was to freeze my eggs because all the doctor
said you should freeze your eggs. So I said I
(03:46):
would do that. Let me go to Miami for two months,
clean out my system, off the pill, come back, freeze
my eggs, go to Miami, get pregnant the next month.
And so that happens a lot too. It happens. I'm
I started thinking about Notami Miami had happened. But no,
as soon as you like have a plan or aren't stressing,
or go in one direction like adoption, tons of people
(04:08):
that happened to in the sixties and seventies. Oh we're
going to adopt, or we did adopt. Bam, we're pregnant. Okay,
so now you're pregnant. What I learned was when you're
on the pill and you're going to check any of
your account big mistake, Just don't do that. The pill
is supposed to suppress all of that, so you cannot
know if you're really supposed to do any of that
until you're really off the pill. So and didn't this
(04:30):
doctor kind of give you that tip or no? No?
So I changed doctors and got pregnant with North. The
doctor pulled me aside because I was still legally married
to somebody else, which you know, Laura because Laura's my
attorney for those of you that don't know. But was
(04:50):
in a relationship for seven months with somebody with my
husband now, But at the time, I didn't know we're
we going to get married, were we going to have
this baby. It was all new territory to me. And
I was so scared, and literally I thought I had
a miscarriage because I was really heavily bleeding and in
(05:11):
so much pain in Miami. Went in because you have
to go and do like a d n C to
like clean out in a miscarriage. And it was Thanksgiving
morning and my doctor said, come in the morning and
we'll do it after, you know, Thanksgiving nights and no
one will see you. I was so worried people would
you know, found out this the first time I ever
got pregnant. I was so nervous. So I went in
(05:32):
and there was no heartbeat, and he said, oh, you
had a miscarriage, you know. And then Thanksgiving morning, I
came in to do it and he said there's a heartbeat,
and so I was like, oh my god, this is
a sign. It's Thanksgiving morning, you know. So we ended
up obviously having North and I had a really bad pregnancy.
I had pre clampsia. I delivered six weeks early. She
(05:52):
was four pounds, and I had something called placenta acreta,
where the placenta grows inside your uterus. So yeah, it's
it's like, honestly what people would die from in childbirth.
So you have to get the placenta out within a
certain amount of time, and you just can internally bleed.
So there's no choice. I mean, this is so graphic
and gross, but he had to literally cut the placenta
(06:15):
off with his hands with his like fingernails. It's so
grows inside of you, and it left a hole in
my uterus and so that muscle doesn't grow back. So
I could not get pregnant with ST after I had North. Luckily,
I did go through the process of getting embryos and
tried to get pregnant for about a year and a half,
could not and so they said I would probably not
(06:36):
get pregnant. So I used one of the embryos and
was able to get pregnant with SAT. The same condition happened.
Um it was a little worse the second time, and
so it was like my mom. I remember her being
in the delivery room and just saying, like, I've seen
it all, but I've never seen this, Like I've never
experienced this. So they were about to do a hysterectomy
(06:57):
and we were able to get the placenta out just
in time time, and I ended up meeting five surgeries
in the next year and a half to internally fix
the damage that was done, which was really crazy and
really traumatic. And so the doctor I wanted I had
two embryos left. And it's really interesting because when you
(07:18):
get embryos, when you explain this to everyone and they
don't know. When you get embryos, you can do further testing,
genetic testing, all the testing that you do in the belly,
so down syndrome testing, genetic testing, and in that process
you find out the sex of the baby. So that
was really hard to me to know. I had you know,
what do you put in? Do you put a void?
(07:39):
Do you put in a girl? How is this? You know?
There's that like for me, I was like, well, I
don't know what was supposed to come to me. So
I just had put in the healthiest one first, and
that's just how I did it. And I kind of
knew that having another kid was going to be maybe
my last because they said you can really only go
through it about two times before you need your uterus removed.
(07:59):
So got pregnant was saint. I knew it was going
to be a boy, and then I really wanted another
baby girl, and I knew we had that at this
point after st Now do you and Kanye start having
conversations about I don't know that we're going to be
able to have another child. I can't carry it. I
don't know. Well. I asked the doctor and he said
(08:20):
it would be malpractice if I put an embryo inside
of you, because you will, for sure, having gone through
these conditions twice, you're gonna need your uterus removed and
it's just it's not fair to do to your body.
It's like, you know, you can literally die in childbirth
from this and in pregnancy. I mean I had every issue,
you know, but reach miserable pregnancies to both had to
(08:42):
do a version and if anyone had turned back, mine didn't,
thank god. But we have to turn the baby around. First.
We tried the mug work next to the toe that work,
then the thing where they actually puncture. They turned the
whole baby around. I got a wig upside down and
so I'd have to lay their upside down. So you
(09:03):
basically have to do a version. It's like very timed
out to where you have to do it like three
weeks before delivery because you need enough fluid around the
baby to be able to move the baby. But you
go into the hospital, you check in because if any
heart rate of the baby goes up, you immediately go
into delivery. So you go in and I mean, this
is like so gross to say, but I think a
(09:24):
doctor has to put his yes. It's up you to
make sure the head does the baby because the thing
is just to be clear, because Johnny's never given birth
with they really don't want you to deliver a baby.
That's first, that's really dangerous. So you need head facing
downward in the birth canal. And the way I always
grew my babies, both boys, was their head was right
(09:46):
here and their little butts are right here, and they
were just sitting their way and to come out, so
you turn them. Okay, So it's really fun hospital beds. Yes,
I don't know. I never delivered. They didn't come me
open to that. And you're doing it after being in
this aversion bed that well you for weeks and weeks
(10:06):
you're trying to go to a chiropractor and turn the
baby and use this like sage burning incense on your toes,
like they say all this stuff will help turn the
baby basically basically, so there's a fist, you know, a
doctor's fist to help you, and then there's like two
(10:27):
other doctors like basically looped up your belly and is
like manually finding the butt and finding the head and
turning the baby in the most painful but there's no
pain medicine that you could possibly have. So you're like
sitting in the hospital bed just like screaming while they're
turning the baby. Once they get it to turn they
(10:48):
put this belt on you and you have to lay
there in a like certain position for about an hour
and then you can go home and pray that it
worked well. So to me, not so much, because literally
the next day I was like, I was like which
(11:10):
one that was lude? Because I didn't even try with Jack.
I mean I had both c sections both. My doctor
both times was like, please, let's not do this. He's
turned we can't turn him back. Let's just do the
C section. And at that's my point, I was like,
so tired and exhausted. I was like, fine. My doctor
was Paul Crane, who delivered you. He was my mom's
kynecologist and so he delivered me and he's super old school,
(11:34):
and I was like, we can deliver breach, like I
got this, Like I know how to do it. We
can do it. And I just was too nervous about it. Um.
But so after that, awful pregnancies, awful deliveries, everything that
could frustrate you just did and medically go wrong. Did.
So I knew I wanted to expand my family and
(11:55):
I wanted to have a baby girl. So I knew
nobody that it had a surrogate before, no one could
really give you information, And I mean I wanted to
know so much, Like, Okay, if you have two babies,
that are I understand. If you have like two girls
and you can't do it and then you have a
boy with the surrogate, You're gonna feel so much love
(12:17):
for that boy because you've never had a boy before. Like,
how is it going to feel if you've had a
boy and a girl and then you bring in a
new sibling that you didn't carry, Like, am I going
to feel the same? Are they gonna look like me?
Even though you know every ounce of d N A
is ours. I think sometimes you really have to explain
that to people. People will say, oh, the baby looks
(12:38):
like the surrogate, Like I'll see the most ignorant comments
on my page, like it's actually impossible. They share absolutely
no DNA. It is Kanye sperm and my egg and
it is our child one billion percent. So sometimes you
really do have to spell that out for people. And
that's and and being even open to that kind of
(12:58):
I don't I wouldn't call it ridic, but just kind
of ignorance. I know. You also have spoken about the
idea of kind of giving up the control, which by
the way, as a person who is carried to term,
you know, you kind of give up control anyway. But
now that you're not even carrying the baby it's in
somebody else's body, there's a huge I know you and
I are similar in this way, like control issues. What
(13:19):
is she eating? How much is she sleeping? Is she stressing?
How is her health? Will she be honest with us
about it? All of those things going on. You're not there,
you can't control it, and I have to imagine that
there's still some kind of pre birth hormones happening even
though the baby is not in your body, because you
know it's coming. You know what I have to say
to spell it out for people. You get an attorney,
(13:42):
that is just a story. Get attorney. They know all
family law, they know every state law. They you know,
California is I think one of the only states where
the baby legally becomes ours in the third trimester, where
other states it can be too. Know, they can't change
their mind because it's legally your baby. Um terminate, No,
(14:07):
they can never terminate, but you have to like go
through legal paperwork after the fact, like an adoption, almost
even though it's legally your child. So California has amazing
laws that it is automatically our child third trimester. Um.
So once in our case, once we got a surrogate attorney.
Then I got a surrogate broker that would go to
(14:29):
different agencies. You can easily call one agency and you
know see who they have, but I had someone go
to multiple agencies in California. It's important to me to
find someone local so I can attend appointments. Um. They
gave me a pack of people. I went through and
there's photos and family photos from me and my situation.
(14:49):
What was important to me is to find someone that
was in a relationship or had a supportive partner, had
children of their own and didn't smart another children, and
then had been a surrogate before. So I knew the
feeling of giving up a child. That was important to me,
and so I expressed those things and I found a
(15:11):
really amazing candidate. Race didn't matter to me nothing, And
that seemed to be a topic that people would ask
me all the time, like doesn't matter, Like one of
my surrogates was black, one of my curroguits was white.
One of my surrogates carried a Chinese baby before, Uh,
black baby before, a white baby before, and I think
(15:32):
an Indian baby before. So it's really interesting that there's
absolutely no d n A transferred. So it's really funny
to me when someone would say a comment on something
like oh, your your child looks just like your surrogate,
and I would be like, well, yeah, my surrogate is
a totally different ethnicity, Like it made it made no sense.
(15:54):
So after I found a perfect match for our family,
I did have a conversation with her. So you can
go completely private and not never even speaking. You can
maybe set up an email address in a different name
and communicate that way or speak. It was important to
me that to know her, to have her know who
(16:15):
she was doing this for as well, because I would
never want someone that maybe wasn't a big fan of
maybe me or my family and then is watching a
show and my babies inside of them and they're you know,
talking about and and you know, like I just wouldn't
ever I would want that person to make that choice
(16:36):
as well. So we did have a conversation. We both
both times really had great feelings for each other, and
both experiences were really different but really amazing. Now, tell
our audience why it is that you use two different women.
I used two different women because I actually planned on
(16:57):
doing it with my first surrogate again, but she got
pregn it on her own right after, with her own baby. Yes,
and she wasn't planning on that, but I'm so happy
for her, and she was so happy but so nervous
to tell me because we had planned on doing it again,
and so I thought, you know what, I'll try it again.
(17:18):
And it was just as easy to find a surrogate.
A lot of people, I think are fearful that, oh,
what if this woman runs off with your child, And
every agent that I speak to says absolutely that never
has even happened. More is what they want. This is
you know, these women love helping families, and they say
(17:39):
the one issue that they run into is the couple
breaks up and then they have custody issues or both
of them say like, well, it's not my child, and
that becomes that's the biggest problem that they've ever run into.
But never a case ever of someone tries to run
off with your child. So, okay, you said you did
you attend O B G I and appointments with the
(18:01):
surrogates like you saw them, you met them. It wasn't
just over the phone, so you met them. How close
did you get? And is this anybody that you even
still keep in touch with or when it's done? Is
it done? I went to both transfers when the baby
was transferred. I still stay in communication with both of
my surrogates, maybe not on a daily basis or anything
(18:22):
like that. I think everyone respects each other's privacy and
space and you kind of plan that out ahead of time, right,
I think that would be important too. I imagine that
that would be an important thing. And again, it's different.
My other fascination is like egg donors, and I've yeah,
I mean that kind of stuff, because that is a
different that's a shade different in terms of genetics and
biology and all that. This seems a little more cut
(18:45):
and dry, but it is. I want to know. In
advantage is a therapist. So for my first one, I
didn't need it for my second one because I kind
of knew the drill. So you get your surrogate attorney,
then you get your surrogate broker, and then the broker
recommended that we use a therapist that would communicate with
me first and then communicate with her and kind of
be our liaison. Towards the end we got close enough
(19:06):
to where we could communicate really without that, but I
would suggest, hey, I think you guys should communicate once
a week through text. Maybe on Mother's Day. She's a
mother as well. Maybe get her a massage or something
that's appropriate for her to pamper her things like going
through the birthing plan, so that if anything was uncomfortable,
(19:29):
that she would be that buffer to say, like, this
is who I want in the room. What are you
comfortable with? How does this work? Were you in the room?
I was in the room both times for how what?
How involved is he in this? I mean, this is
kind of a chick thing, but it's his kids, So yeah,
he's busy, I know. So how did he meet her?
Did he go to the doctor's appointment? So both surrogates
(19:52):
that you know we used were very comfortable with Kanye
being involved any way he wanted to be. For the
first surrogate, we both met her and then met her
husband and their kids came over to our house. She had,
you know, two younger kids, so we felt a really
good vibe from the start. I felt like the second
(20:13):
time I felt like, oh I got this. I know
what it's like, you don't need to come to every appointment, honey, totally, totally.
So Kanye came to some at the beginning, and then
you know, with the second one, I don't think he
really was involved really more until the end. But yeah,
it was just it's totally I think from my experience,
(20:35):
especially because he was more involved when I was actually pregnant.
It was whatever I needed him to be involved with.
But he was there for both deliveries, and so for
the first one he was not in the room. We
had a connecting room, so him and Courtney we're in
the connecting room. Because I really feel like, you know,
Courtney has done this before. I really needed a support,
(20:55):
a girls support system. So as soon as the baby
is born. This is also what's interesting is so I
chose to stand behind her shoulders and be behind her.
I didn't need to see full front all. But they're
both circuits. Were very comfortable, like it's your child, you
can stand wherever you want to stand. Your husband can
be in the choice, but to right, So I stood
(21:23):
behind I saw the baby come out. And once the
baby comes out, we had a connecting room and there
was a hospital bed and I was in a gown
like a hospital gown, like, so the baby comes out,
then biblical cord is cut right away, and the baby
comes to me on my chest, so in skin sind
to skin right from the beginning, as if like I
birthed right. And so then both times, I know, especially
(21:47):
with Chicago, she came out and she was like my twin.
So I was like, okay, God really did this to
show me that, like I'm connected, because I was so
worried at first, and and it was you know, I
asked her, do you want to hold the baby? And
she was like, no, you know, I'll call you before
we check out, like tomorrow, and I would like to then,
(22:09):
so professional, so great, And of course before she left,
I let her hold the baby, but she had said
that her you know, previous family didn't even want that,
and she's comfortable with that as well. And then same
second surrogate, we had the connecting room, but there was
a curtain and Courtney and Kanye were in the room
(22:29):
but behind the curtain, so they were like a little
bit closer this time, and I did the same thing
behind you know, her shoulders. I was so surprised at
both of my surrogates had the easiest deliveries, like so easy,
one or two pushes my son's sawm. Literally the doctor
couldn't even get his gloves on. He just came out
and it was so easy. And that's why they're surrogates. Yeah,
(22:55):
So after hearing all of that, what astounds me is
that there are still intelligent people that are so anti surrogacy.
And again what we saw summer two thousand nineteen in
New York, and we saw again a lot of really
progressive thinking feminists saying this is not okay. Now. A
(23:17):
big thing that I've been reading is the reasoning has
to do with it. It really only benefits the wealthy,
and that it also puts the wealthy and an advantage
over the less wealthy because obviously there's money changing hands.
Question and again not you personally can, but I'm sure
now having done this a couple of times and spoken
about it, what's the range on how much something like
(23:37):
this cost? And of those costs, how much of that
goes to the surrogate versus the lawyer, the broke or whatever,
the therapist, all the other people, and the hospital. You
cover all the medical obviously, yes, you cover all the medical.
What does one get for being a surrogate, and again
give me a range, not what you guys paid, just
from what you know. Yeah, I would say the cost
to the surrogate would be anywhere between fifty and eighty
(24:01):
thousand dollars. And I would say it costs about ten
thousand dollars to retrieve your eggs and to get the embryos.
It costs about three thousand dollars to do the extra
genetic testing those things. Anybody that's having IVF is also
doing right, even if they're having the baby bed. So
now I would say it would cost max a hundred
(24:23):
and twenty thousand dollars if you maybe use a broker,
and I would say minimum maybe eighty thousand dollars. So
it is definitely large expense. Um. I do think that
(24:46):
I do know that both of my surrogates were extremely
grateful for the opportunity to be able to opportunity. And
what I also thought was really interesting was when I
was looking through the hacket of women that were chosen
for US, I would say more than half of them
(25:07):
came from navy or military husbands. Their husbands are in
service and they're gone maybe eight to ten months a
year and so sometimes a whole pregnancy can happen while
they're away in service, and that is something that really
(25:27):
comforts them. It provides a financial gain to their family.
I know that I've spoken to a few Surguits now
where their husbands have been in the military, and they
are so grateful and they love it. Yeah. No, I mean,
it definitely seems. I'm always against the idea that a
(25:48):
woman can't choose what she wants to do with her body.
So for people that have been such large proponents of
choice now to be able to say, you know, you
can have an abortion, but we're not going to let
you choose whether or not you want to carry a
child for somebody that we're going to find you if
you do. That's what happens in New York. The fact
that it is illegal in New York is so just
(26:12):
wrong to me. It is my friends that live in
New York and would want that as an option and can't.
Most of the state's listeners. So you know, in the
US either have no law on this and so there's
nothing to be found, so there's nothing that prohibits it
or allow it. It's Arizona, Indiana, Michigan, Nebraska, New Jersey,
(26:35):
New Mexico, and New York. Uh, the aforementioned ones. Everybody
but New York just finds the contracts to be void
and unenforceable, but New York actually prohibits them, so they
are the most conservative in this respect. And again it
is interesting, it's New York state. That's where Manhattan is.
We'll have a link to that on our website. Yes
for all of those. Okay, so let's move on for
(26:57):
a seconds, since we started talking about law a little bit.
I know how interested you are in law, and have
you thought about any laws on this or you really
still pursuing stuff that has to do with criminal justice.
I'm really focusing on criminal justice. I mean right now
I'm focused and have to take they call it the
baby bar. I don't want my version, so I'm kind
(27:20):
of in mode for that, which is like I think
heavily torts contracts and crim law. It's interesting because now
that I'm studying it and having lots of conversations with
my surgency attorney who's a good friend of mine now
and just hearing about all the contracts and even reading
over the little provisions in my contract, like I understand
(27:43):
it so much better so I can be more a
part of the conversation, which is really interesting. But half
of my apprenticeship is a lot about working on what's current,
and that's you know, policy and individual cases. So all
of that's krim law. Got it. So I read an
Instagram because I follow you Instagram post the other day
(28:05):
where you posted the plaque that Kanye got you, the
Cardia plaque, and it said, this is your life, married
with four kids, get people out of jail, cover of Vogue,
go to church every week with your family, dreams come true?
Does that sum it up pretty well? It does? It
really does. He sent me that text message when my
(28:26):
solo vo comer came out last year May. Yeah, in May,
and I think that was right. I think it was
the one year anniversary of Alice Johnson. It was. And
now our listeners a little bit about Alice Johnson because
if you, I don't know, if why you're listening, if
you don't know Kim very well, you're not listening for me.
But anyway, tell them about that, because this really is
(28:48):
I think this is the side of you that people
don't really understand. What you did there. Yeah, So basically
I saw online um on Twitter a case that I
thought just really wasn't fair. A woman in who Um,
just to put it in perspective, had lost her I think,
fifteen year job at FedEx Um, had five kids, one
(29:09):
of them died, Her eight year old died in a
motorcycle accident. Just got to divorce. The husband left her
to take care of the whole family. And someone at
her old job said, if you answer the phone and
you say this sentence, you'll get a thousand dollars and
she was like, okay, some jumbled sentence that was some
you know, code word for you know. She was like
(29:31):
a phone mule, and then she kept getting called back
to do it and it was a big, sting operation
and she was just trying to put food on the table.
And she has a huge family, lots of sisters, big
you know family, And so when everyone got arrested and
she didn't know who, didn't know quantity, didn't know what.
She knew it was shady, but didn't know exactly the
(29:53):
specifics of it. So many people did these plea deals
and she her attorney advised her not to do a
plea deal. And I think it was like a two year,
two to five years or something. She turned it down
because she had kids and she couldn't be away from
her kids, even just for a few years, ends up
getting life. And so when I saw the same first
(30:14):
time offense someone that's a non violent offense to get
the same sentences Charles Manson, that just didn't compute to me.
I couldn't understand it. So I sent a text message
with a little clip of her story to Sean Holly,
who's an attorney that a criminal attorney that worked with
my dad on the o J case. And I just said,
(30:37):
this doesn't make sense. I don't understand. Is it that
she doesn't have a good enough attorneys? Can I pay
for attorneys for her? Like? I was really naive to
how the system works and what was the deal? How
could this happen? And so we connected with her attorneys
and worked on it, and I found out that the
only way to make you know something happened for her
was to call the White House, and so I absolutely did.
(30:59):
I called Ivanka, and I felt like as a woman,
she understood me and heard me and said I should
speak to her husband, who was heavily involved in that.
And um, we were able to go to the White
House and we had a meeting and it was canceled
and I was so upset. And then we had another
meeting and it was on Alice's birthday in May, and
(31:20):
so I was like, Okay, it's a sign, it's meant
to be. It's on her birthday. I'm going to go
in and we are going to sell this and we
are gonna we have to get this done for her.
And so we did, and the President was really open
and compassionate about Alice. And I'm so grateful and so
is she, and we made it happen. So is this
a one off or is this something that could really happen?
(31:41):
Like I think I've heard you looked into other cases,
You're looking into things. This obviously happens more than we
would like. No system is perfect. Yeah, there's thousands of Alice's.
So after that happened, I got contacted by Van Jones
to do an interview and then Van and I just
started talking a little bit and he was like, you
really have a knack for this law thing, and I
(32:03):
was like, well, I'm obsessed, like it's you know, when
I was a kid, I would look through all my
dad's o J filings and I mean crime scene photos
like stuff I should not have been looking at it
and on the weekends, and Courtney used to be like,
get out of his office, like what are you doing?
And I just always was really into it. So Van
(32:24):
connected me with his law firm Cut fifty and a
girl named Jessica Jackson and Aaron Haney, and was like,
we can do this. We can figure out how to
go through law school in California. You could read the
law and you can. You have to, you know, eighteen
hours a week. It's like no joke, it's it's law school.
And we stay committed to doing that. And so through
(32:46):
that I have to work on policy with them, and
we got the First Step Act passed, which I think
has let out over twenty five thousand people now under
that which I believe totally happened because of Alice Johnson
and because she got out and put a face with
(33:08):
justice reform. And instead of reading about cases and hearing
about these stories, people saw her. They saw her run
out to her family and heard her story and understood
that this great grandmother could not be a threat to
society anymore and never was. And I felt this compassion
(33:30):
really happened. And so there's been. I've worked with a
bunch of attorneys, an attorney Brittany Barnett that was Alice's
attorney that I partnered with, and I mean we've gotten,
you know, something people out just from all of her
hard work with her partner, and it's been amazing, Like
it's it's literally what I do all day long. People
(33:52):
are sending me cases and if I feel like I
can help, I can. And we shot even a documentary
on Oxygen called The Justice Project, and it features a
handful of really sad, heartbreaking stories that my goal is
to like put a face with each problem that we
have so people can understand what you read on paper
(34:16):
isn't necessarily fair and like the circumstances behind someone's story.
You just really have no idea what someone's life has
been like and what drove them to do what they did,
and it's not necessarily their fault. And if it is,
people can be rehabilitated and entered back into society. And
I really hope that it just sheds more like light
(34:40):
bulbs on and people can see that beyond Dallas, like
people that have actually committed murderers and crimes, like you
just don't know, I said, I would never work with
people that violence is involved. That's I had this like
wall up. And then I went to go visit prisons
and I started to talk to people and hear their stories,
and my heart told really opened up. And I hope
(35:02):
that this documentary opens up hearts for people just like
mine was, because the circumstances are always so different, and
we probably can't even imagine what some of these folks
have been through before their incarceration, especially if in trial
their circumstances aren't even allowed to be presented because they have,
(35:22):
you know, a bad attorney they have, they're just getting
the wrong guidance, or they're taking plea bargains that maybe
they wouldn't otherwise be taking, but they feel like they've
been given no choice, or people are forced to take
plea bargains because they know they have no shot. Like
if you told Alice, should you take a plea bargain,
you'll get two years over life, and she spent twenty
three years in you absolutely would take that plea bargain.
(35:44):
It reminds me a lot of what you say about
the family law courts. And I mean, you both know
the law better than I do. But what Kim is
saying is so similar to what you often say about,
you know, the way that the courts work, and I
know in the criminal justice system they're overloaded, and that's
one of the reasons why so many black and brown
people end up in jail, because it's just like this
sort of streamlined process. Absolutely, it's insane, and just to
(36:09):
think that, you know, I'm raising four black kids and
two sons, and if you know, I I want to
see a different system from my kids and their friends
and their kids. And it's really insane, No, it really is.
And I think, look, we have a system of law. Again,
whether it's family law, which is not nearly as serious
(36:30):
in most instances, or criminal law, and you apply those rules,
it's serious a lot of money. I mean serious in
terms of like saying the world, but really you apply
those laws to the facts and generally it works. But
in a lot of instances, it's the detail. It's the
things that people don't always think about. And because our
(36:52):
system is so crowded in both of those fields, there's
not time. So people need to re examine it. People
need to get back in there, people need to help.
I think what you're doing is amazing so important. I
also think it is a great example that you are
setting for your kids because they see so much of
the good that you're able to do. What does the
rest of the family think. I've seen clips of you know,
(37:13):
I rolling out, Kim whatever, and it's all fun and games,
like they love it. They I'm like their go to
legal advisor. At this point. They're always asking me. I
get lots of calls, like on the weekend conference calls,
can we ask you one thing? And I'm like, I
don't know anything about that. I don't. You must get
(37:35):
that all the time because everyone calls me and I'm
not even a lawyer yet, so lawyers And also fun fact,
your dad was my mom's family law turns yes, for
those of you that don't know my my deep roots
with Laura and her initials are law, which I think
is just meant to be maybe. I mean, I fought it.
I fought it until I turned forty and then I
(37:56):
finally just succumbed. I didn't ever tell and it was
so embarrassed because it was God, I love it. All. Right,
let's talk a little bit. When does season eighteen start
end of March. One thing that I know is everybody
might need an attorney when that episode, first episode comes out.
Well that's what I was going to say. So you
ended seventeen at Odds with Courtney, and I know you
(38:18):
were just on Ellen talking about it. How can go
a lot worse? Gets worse before it gets before it
gets better. But you know, we're a really close family.
I can't imagine it all works out. Things to get
much worse. Our family has never dealt with this before,
so it definitely gets worse. Was it like a megsit Um? No,
(38:41):
it wasn't. It was a little violent. Did you see
what your mom posted yesterday and you coming in and
hitting Chloe and then the Jonas brothers. I think, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
that was like I hit and I missed. I was like,
you got one good punchion. I really that was with
a purse. That was like arm punching. Really, I was
(39:01):
as a big sister. I was like a girl. You
didn't really, Oh my gosh. I just all I remember
is like the miss and everyone just making fun of
me for missing. God get out. They were so mean
to me. Guys, that was our Bentley episode. They couldn't
be happy for me that I had saved all my
(39:22):
money and worked really hard to get a car that
I never dreamed I could ever have, and then I
get it, and I remember the guy made us wait
because my something wasn't ready, and they were so rude
to the guy. I mean this was years ago. This
is like, you know, ten years ago, and so I
drove over there and they were so mean to me
and I tried to hit her with my purse and
I missed. I didn't remember. When we had your mom
(39:43):
on the podcast, she told a story about how when
you were little, you made a deal with your dad
that you would work and he would match you. Because
there were these tennis shoes that you wanted to buy
that like my heels. They weren't there, and they were
like a high they weren't they were They were Manola
bre Timberlin boots that had like the heel. Yeah, because
(40:03):
we like our heels. Yeah. And you you made a deal,
can I buy like a ten of these on your
credit card? And I promise you I'll pay you back
with interest within like two weeks. And he was like okay,
but he would make me sign a contract. And this
is how my parents were too. For everything. Everything I
had to have like a whole argument lined up, and
and then I negotiated my brother's allowance for him too,
(40:26):
and took Oh, yeah, that either I grew up with her.
Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I had contracts for everything,
but not no negotiations. So now I'm going to things exactly. Yeah. Alright, well, Johnny,
do we have anything else you want to ask him?
This has been amazing. Well let's talk a little bit
(40:48):
about self care. Okay, yeah, Oh and the refrigerator, yes care, Yes,
is there food in your fridge? There is, there's a
yogurt machine sprinkles. Yes. So I took a picture, just
you know, posing in my skims walking around my house,
trying to get like content those fridges. I got to
(41:08):
find a picture of what they used to look like.
That's actually I have to do that. Hopefully I have it.
I had every kind of soda you could imagine, every
kind of plastic water bottle you can imagine. And we've
cleaned out our whole house to get rid of all
single use plastic, and most plastic everywhere, not just single use.
So we had just cleaned it out, but I was
(41:30):
trying I just have like one or two water companies
and just that's like drinks, that was only a drink section,
so you know, everyone of course zoomed in and things.
I starved my kids because there was nothing in the
even start of your kids. If you wanted to like kids,
don't allow for starving. There will be dusking for food
and you will be getting it because they would be
(41:51):
so annoying. So there's no there's that. People. They were
like these headlines like we're baffled over Kim's empty fridge.
So I took them into our real chef kitchen that
has like it's a restaurant kitchen and show them our
real fridge. We have two fridges in there, and you
know what else, you know what else I'm gonna do.
(42:12):
I'm going to go back today because I'm heated again.
I actually have four fridges that pull out, six fridges
that pull out with tons of stuff. I'm going to
start opening them and giving more fridge tours. But yeah,
so I have like a whole a whole walk in
fridge with you know, everything that we use and pantries,
and we were most impressed with Laura complete edible glitter.
(42:35):
So does anyone, yes, So that's why I have. They
were like, how come you have so many different kinds
of milk? So my son doesn't have lactose. My daughters
Chicago only drinks oat milk. North drinks regular milk, and
some isn't into milk yet you need I have almond
(42:56):
milk for guests, and you have to have everything. I
have milk got milk, Yes, she does in every single flavor.
You're listening to the season premiere of the All's Fare
podcast on I Heart Radio. I'm your host, Laura Wasser,
and today we're with Kim Kardashian West talking about life,
(43:17):
love and relationships. So turn up the volume, sit back,
and let's get back to our conversation. So we talked
a minute about when you were on the gorgeous, gorgeous
cover of May two thousand, nineteen Vogue. And I know
that was the eighth time you were on the cover,
but this was the only time you were like only
you US folk, US Folk, Okay. So I had done
(43:37):
a US folk cover with Kanye remember, and so this
was my first thank you. So this was my first
solo cover for US folk. But I've done other countries
and it was good. I like it. I'm looking at
it again right now. It's very natural, very natural. Yes,
that's also so powerful too. That's one of the things
I really like about it. So right now you've got
KKW beauty. Yes, And I wanted to tell you listeners
(44:01):
that there's free shipping on domestic orders over fifty dollars.
Also skims, which Oh, I wanted to talk to you
about this because I love Chelsea Hadlers on the show.
She's a friend thing. Remember running and I was like,
that's Calbo, was it com Yeah? So we were all
going to alison birthday, her my best friend's forty birthday
(44:21):
in Cabo, and so Chelsea called right before I was
leaving and was like, can you bring skims? I want
to wear skims? And so Allison wanted tape, and all
the girls wanted stuff. So I packed up a whole
bunch of stuff and brought it to Mexico and then
next thing you know, I walked down to the beach
and I see, from like far away, I see Chelsea
in her skims tape and she like taped it down
(44:43):
that it was so funny. Who is filming it? Just
one of our friends, one of the girls. It was
so funny. She is hilarious. She is so funny and
just she looked so amazing and she was just running
down the beach and then doing a whole photo shoot
on the rocks. It was She's so so funny. So
one of the things that I love about your skims
ad campaign is the fact that you use real people.
(45:06):
I remember when Alison did it with you. They look
like us, They look like normal people, and they tell
their stories and it's amazing. And I feel like every
single one I hear is somebody saying for years I
was looking for something like this. You've said I used
to wear layers of different ones and the other brands
(45:27):
that just can't seem to do it, or they're so
tight and you can't breathe, and you're I mean, you
should hear Shelly. She just goes on and on and
on and on about she sent me believe them. She
sends me notes on everything. I have a rack that's
like the Shelly tri On section that I have to
send to her just to make sure that it's to
her liking. So what's the thing you wear the most.
I love like our sculpting short I like sculpting body suits.
(45:52):
I just like to feel snug and then pajamas are
a really big thing for me. So for holiday we
did pajama as in a cozy collection. But as far
as shapewear and even the boom tape, you know, the
boot tape is brilliant, but I don't taping up it.
But I'm definitely going to go in for some of
the shorts and the waste thing, the thing that you wear,
(46:14):
but I'll remember everyone is stealing it. I tried to
like video it this morning, and everyone comes over and
just takes my stuff, even if I've worn it. They
like take my stuff, and so I hardly have any
more at the house. When I just wrote the team
and was like, I need like a Skims showroom because
all my friends come over and when I'm going someplace
I love to bring something. Is there a men's line
(46:36):
in the works. There is not a men's line, but
I've been getting such a large request that I feel
like right now, really, oh my god, I want to
talk to you. What do you like about it? Oh?
I need off later. I just need to know that
you heard this and that we can be talking about
it later. Holy shit, you're wearing springs. See. I wanted
(47:00):
there I want to be you know, have a cool version.
I already have my materials for men that I already
I think is so amazing. So i'd love your opinion.
Shapewear where all right? Can we ask are the interrogatories
now him? Yes, you swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I do, all right?
(47:21):
Which relationship in your life has had the most profound impact? Wow?
I would say my dad and my mom. Honestly, at
my husband, my kids, I don't know. I have such
a big family, I would say, because maybe my dad's
not here. I have such a deep like connection and
(47:44):
longing to the memories, and I feel like what he
instilled in us for so long. I was twenty two
when he passed away, so I feel like I got
a good basic base. I'm just going to say, based
on um, like a good foundation of what he taught us.
So I feel like that is lasted the longest. But
my mom obviously has taught us so much in our
(48:06):
adult life about business and just how to treat people.
I think, you know it's they're both really strong relationships
you can have to I will allow them. What's your
favorite love song? I would say, Kanye is only one
just because it's more personal to me and talks about
(48:26):
our daughter, and it's just you know, what is the
one piece of advice you'd share with either your twenty something,
your old self, or someone following your footsteps, one of
the girls, somebody that you just But again, let's make
this you. So, if you could go back nearly twenty
years and talk to yourself at that time, what would
you say. I wish I was more confident starting at
(48:48):
a younger age. I really gained a lot of confidence
when I met Kanye, and he really pushed that with
me and helped me gain confidence. And I wish ish
that I knew that sooner. But everything else I love.
I love all of the craziness and mistakes, Like I
(49:10):
really do think that you really learn a lot, hopefully
if you don't make the same mistakes over and over,
which I hope I don't. I love the journey and
I wouldn't really change a whole lot. I just would
maybe hope to be a bit more confident at a
younger age like that, and then I probably wouldn't have
made some of those mistakes. Which romantic comedy could you
(49:33):
watch on repeat? Oh? My god, the Holiday. I was
watching it all yes, and I was trying to get
Kanye to watch it with me. I'm like, because he
loves like Star Wars, like we have two totally different
movie types, and I just I was begging him to
watch it. So we finally put it on and after
five minutes, he's like snoring, and I was like, I
(49:55):
just want to watch The Holiday. But I watched it
by myself so many times. This holiday suace. That's nice one,
all right, So Kim, thank you for having us over
and thank you for being on our season premiere. This
is huge. I want you to thank you note and
I'll say what I say in there, which is I
can't even express how grateful I am. Keeping Up with
the Kardashians airs on e Sundays at nine pm. It
(50:16):
probably won't start for another month and a half. And
if there's anyone in the audience who doesn't know how
to keep up with Kim Kardashian West and her family,
how can people find you and what you're up to online?
They can go to here's my cell phone number, you
can call me. They can check me out on Instagram.
That's at Kim Kardashian and Twitter at Kim Kardashian. And
(50:40):
that's about Another interesting one which I follow, probably because
Johnny sawn me up is the KKW beauty website, which
is amazing. That's amazing stuff on that and deals and
stuff like that. Excellent. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
How amazing is she? She is amazing. I think Daniel,
our sound editor, said it was like not a word wasted.
(51:01):
I mean, she's very eloquent, well spoken and gorgeous and gorgeous,
very psych that she's doing this law thing. But again,
I really want our listeners to get a handle on
the surrogacy conversation because just like you and I have
always tried to focus on the evolution of dissolution and
changing the way we as a culture approach divorce, I
(51:22):
think we as a culture need to change the way
we approach surgacy. There's this article by Ali Rosen that
was in the Washington Post. Surrogacy is misunderstood and unfairly maligned.
We need to change the narrative absolutely. In fact, she
points out that more and more children are born through
assisted reproductive technology every year. That includes in vitro fertilization.
You know, it also includes surrogacy again, if you have
(51:44):
thoughts on this experiences or if you strongly disagree with
us Gloria's Dynham, let us know we would love to
hear from you. Also, there's a very important article that
also came out last week. Woman who was acting as
a surrogate for a family died while giving. Are so sad,
and they've actually started to go fund me page for
the woman and for her family. She was the mother
(52:07):
of two other kids, her own kids, her own kids. Yeah,
so you can go to go fund me and search
Michelle Reeves. That's r E a v e s. They
have reached seventy six thousand, seven eighteen dollars of their
hundred thousand dollar goal as of the end of January,
so look into that if this is something that interests you.
Thank you so much for listening to our brand new show,
(52:28):
All's Fair Hell, listed by me Laura Wasser on I
Heart Radio, Rate us at Apple Podcast, and follow us
after the show at It's Over Easy. We'll be back
next week, So see you next Tuesday. As I like
to say to Johnny, yes let's chat then, shall we? Bye?
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