July 20, 2021 • 26 mins
In this episode, Bobby & Sophie talk Cookbooks. To begin, Bobby makes the kale salad from his mentor Jonathan Waxman's newly released "The Barbuto Cookbook". Sophie and Bobby continue by discussing what makes for a good cookbook, and remember some of their all time favorites.
For the kale salad recipe recipe from this episode, find "The Barbuto Cookbook" here: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/barbuto-cookbook_9781419747632/
For more updates on "Always Hungry", follow the hosts on Instagram:
Bobby Flay's Instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/bobbyflay
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, alright, guys, welcome to Always Hungry from My Heart Radio.
My name is Bobby Flay, and I'm here with my
daughter and co host, and I'm always Hungry. Sophie and
I gather around my stove to cook together. Well, you cook,
I asked the questions, and eat the food if there's
any food left. We come to the table together to
(00:20):
share a meal, connect as a family, and tell the
stories that matter to us. Okay, Dad, why don't you
tell everyone what we're talking about today? This is the
place where I steal on my recipes cookbooks. Let's do it.
So today we're talking about cookbooks. I mean, I want
to talk about a few that have been around for
a while, for a long time, and then some newer
(00:42):
ones as well that are that are sort of striking
or you know, piquing my interest. What about you? Like,
I don't use cookbooks that much, but I have a
few that are very like reliable in my kitchen that
you probably know all too well, and we can talk
about how we use them. Okay, let's do it, all right, So,
I think the first one I want to talk about
is my mentor, Jonathan Waxman, has you know, well he
(01:05):
had a restaurant called Barbuto, which is an interesting it's
it's very interesting to me because I worked from him
in the early eighties. Okay, so that was the one
you were like negative fourteen years old. And you know,
Jonathan was the first person to bring California cuisine and
its ingredients to the East Coast. And that's where I
learned a lot about Southwestern ingredients. Blue corn, you know,
(01:28):
corner of every iteration, you know, you know beans, you know,
chili peppers. I mean, you know, all those ingredients were
very new to the East Coast. It was very It
was much more on the West Coast, obviously taking its
queue from Mexico and the southwest of the United States,
but the East Coast had not seen that kind of food. Um,
and Jonathan was the first person to bring those kinds
(01:48):
of ingredients. It was California slash Southwestern ingrediency to the
East Coast. And I was lucky enough just to be
in the right place at the right time, and I
fell in love with those ingredients and I went off
to hone my skills and created Masa grill, etcetera. But
that's another story. Jonathan like a lot of a lot
of us in the chef world has evolved into his
love of you know, Italian food, which you know, by
(02:12):
the way, I'm feeling that myself. And um, you know,
he opened Barbuto. I I don't know how long ago was,
ten years ago, who knows, But anyway, he came out
with his Barbuto cookbook. I wrote the foreword to his
very first cookbook. I did not the rite. I did
not write the foreward to this one. Marcus Samuelson wrote
the forward to this point. But basically, this is a
collection of recipes, you know, based on the book and
(02:35):
but based on the restaurant. And they're very very and
I mean this is in the best way. They're very simple.
You know, there's a handful of ingredients. They're very very
sort of simple classic I would say California. It's like
Italian meets California, right, Calatality used to call it. And
and and you know, so you have like his his
spectacular roasted chicken with salsa verde, you know, you know,
(02:56):
bucatini with pesto. I mean that's just you know, Swiss chart.
He's got a he's got a recipe called little fish risotto.
I don't even show what that means. But I always,
you know, I always think of anyway red mullet or
something like that, you know, lamb chops with mint butter,
you know, ducks and peas and Morrel's I mean it
goes on and on and his book, his book is
something that I've used a lot, I mean just at home,
(03:19):
like during you know, when being at home and having
to cook a lot. Like it's it's such a it's
such a it's an enticing book because like anybody else,
even a professional cook, like sometimes you just want recipes
that have like five ingredients exactly, not of books exactly. Okay,
so we're gonna make the We're gonna make Jonathan Waxman's
(03:41):
kale salad from Barbug, which is you know, it's a Listen,
it wasn't too long ago that cal was a throwaway ingredient.
I know. It's true, nobody wanted an ekale, but now
everybody wants the ecale and and and like kale's like
become so popular. It's almost like it's like there's been
a backlash about like no kale. Well, I feel like
people didn't know how to use kale before, like in
(04:03):
the best way. Well, Also there's different kinds of kale,
Like I love using this kale, you know, black kil
or dinosaur kale or tusken kale. Um, it's like a
darker green. It's very crinkly. Sometimes like the more curly
green kale is not as good. But but I love
this this, this tuscan kale, this is this is a
good one to use for for salads. And you know,
(04:26):
kale is a very hearty green. You know, it's not
it's not a tender green. It's got it's got some
foundations to it. And and one of the one of
the keys to to um, one of the keys to
making a really good kale salad is actually kind of tender.
Rising the kale itself. You kind of beat it up, right,
you know, so you can cut it, you can rub it,
you can you know, you almost you just really want to,
(04:50):
like um, you want to try to bruise it. Yeah, exactly.
You know. There were so there were some books that
I think about that are just part of my permanent library.
And let's put it this way. I'm never throwing a
cookbook away, so they're always going to be permanent. But
there are some that you just reach for more over
(05:12):
and over, just the way it is. And the Zuni
Cafe Cookbook, written by the late Judy Rogers, she passed
away a handful of years ago at at at a
very unfortunate early age um restaurant in San Francisco. You know,
actually her one of her famous tsues was also a
roasted chicken, and it had like this, like it was
a roasted chicken with this salad kind of wrapped around it.
(05:34):
I mean, so delicious, like using the chicken fat for
their dressing. And it's just really classic way to cook.
But the thing about the Zunny Cafe Cookbook, if you
can get your hands on one, get it. She talks
to you as if she's sitting across from you while
you're cooking. So it doesn't feel like it's in cookbook pros.
You know what you see him saying, it's written speech.
(05:56):
There's something about it. So like, so while you're reading
the book and you're actually doing the recipe, you hear
you hear them talking to you. Is if I know
who you are, now, this is what it's supposed to
look like at this point, you're right, you can hear
their voice. Another book that I like a kind of
a Newish book is a book called Bitter Honey. And
it's written by a woman named Latitia Clark. Now I
(06:18):
don't know her, but she's sort of a person after
my own heart in terms of like her journey here.
She was born in Devon, in England, and you know,
she I'm just gonna I'm just gonna read you a
very quick excerpt. And she said, when I and and
this is about Sardinian cooking. Bitter Honey. Okay, so it's
it's Italian food, you know, sort of like like it's
(06:39):
sort of like Italian island food. She said. When I
arrived in Sardinia, I had spent the last few years
cooking in professional kitchens. I cooked for a living, but
I didn't live to cook. Cooking had becomes something I
no longer did for love. And then suddenly a small
round Sardinian popped into my life. We worked together. He
on the fryar me on the grill. He used to
(07:00):
feed me crispy fried things when no one was looking.
On our first day, he invited me to his home
for supper, handing me a glass of wine and a
pair of slippers, and proceed to cook me pasta. I
mean and then basically, I mean, I'm not gonna be
the rest, but basically she found a new life, you know.
And there's a movie if you haven't seen this movie,
My favorite movie that involves food is a movie called
(07:23):
Mostly Martha. It's a German movie, so it's it's subtitled,
but it's about an Italian restaurant in Germany and there's
a love affair involved in the kitchen. It's very beautiful
and and and so when I read Lutitia's introduction here,
it kind of reminded me of that you know, she
got she got wowed by Sardinia, but also you know
(07:44):
by you know, the food and and cooking along with
somebody that she kind of fell for, and you know
it's it's, you know, cooking become that lifestyle. Like my
dream is to like live in Italy one day and
just cook lunch for my friends. I mean I'm doing
that now, except them not in Italy anyway. So Latiia Clark,
I love her stuff. You know, if you want, if
(08:05):
you want to do things like um, you know, fritto
misto or you know, she's got a pair pecorino and
ricotta ravioli, and then you know she does like like
I love this, like persimmon pursciutto and dies peccorina, when
walnuts like a beautiful a beautiful Actually yeah, well it
sounds like me. But but you know you're using all
these beautiful Italian ingredients, and you know, she's she's sort
(08:27):
of having her tuscan and the sun part of her life,
which is maybe we'll be forever. You know who knows
grilled octopus with lemon and potato puree, fried fish with
saffron ioli, and then you know porks at pork and
anchovy sauce just goes on and on all right. So
that's Bitter Honey, really good book. So you just you
(08:58):
just kind of ripped up the care of leaves and
now you're chopping down, ripped the key kale leaves off,
and you know, you take them off the stems because
the stems are just not edible. They're just they're just
they're just too firm. Um. So I'm going from chopping
up the kale and I think, you know, I think,
you know, cal should be kind up into smaller pieces.
So that has this salad been around for a long time?
(09:21):
I mean yeah, I mean when I go to Barbuto.
I mean when I go to Barbuto, like the must
things on the table are obviously his chicken chicken salver
and um salad, kale salad. Yeah, and then like you know,
you get like pasta carbonara, those amazing potatoes like with
(09:46):
the with the rosemary and the parmigiano. I know you're
talking like as if you don't go to that restaurant
and order everything on the menu. You're one of those
people that's like, oh, let's try this, and let's try this.
Actually we'll just get one of everything. You're right, that's you,
which is, hey, why take a good person to be
with when you're going out to launch for dinner? We'll
take the media exactly. So here's here's one that's kind
(10:11):
of cool. I love Lisbon. Okay, you know what I
forgot that you love Lisbon my favorite trip I've ever
been on. No offense, I wasn't with you. Wait what Okay,
So this book is called My Lisbon. Obviously it's about Portugal, Lisbon, Portugal,
and you know what, let's talk about Lisbon. Why did
you love it so much? I mean I loved the food.
(10:34):
Here's what I really want to know, Like when you
listen when when how old were you when you went there?
You were in college. So when you're in college and
you're that age, like you can say it was the
best trip of my life. But that might necessarily mean
you so like great art. Right, Well sure, but I
mean we hopped off the plane, we rented a car
from the airport. We drove to Logos, went immediately to
(10:55):
the water. It was spectacular. People were buying san Gria
from a little shaw like on the rocks, and you
just like laid on your towel and drank sat gria
and you know, listen, listened and watched all these beautiful people.
And then we stayed at night there. It was I
was with my girlfriends and but but I just have
to ask you this, but like was it like, were
(11:16):
you guys met some like a nice Portuguese gentleman or
anything like that. Not until the third day. Okay, So
that's so that's part of your great trip. No, I mean,
I'm I'm I'm kidding. I'm talking about a guy who
drove us to the top of of like to go
see like an amazing, amazing site. Like No, it was
it was a girl's trip for one of my my
girlfriend's birthdays and we went to CenTra. There's this beautiful
(11:38):
castle in CenTra, but it's a hike up up like
a mountain, and so this guy in this little tut
tut car was like, hop in with twenty bucks, I'll
take you to the top. And it was amazing. Yeah,
I mean I I. And also I love the food
of Lisbon because well, first of all, you know, it's
the fish and Lisbon is amazing. I'm looking at this
tree right now, muscles with cheriesa tomato and peppers. It's
(11:59):
like it has a lot of Spanish influence, and like
you'll see Spain and you'll see you'll see it literally
you'll see all over the Mediterranean. But but, but, but
the thing about Portuguese food is it certainly has its
own own direction for sure. But with scrambled eggs with
smoked sausage, I mean that sounds so good. Another another
part of like eating and drinking culture that I love
(12:22):
in in Lisbon and and in Europe is like the
open container laws. I love seeing people. It's fun. I
totally agree, there's like some camaraderie behind it. I don't know.
I like that. And also like Portuguese wines are really
good too, really fantastic, but unlike I'm thinking about having
a nice crisp Portuguese wine with this shrimp and shellfish rice.
(12:44):
Look at this picture, Sophie, It's like it's you know,
it's like almost it's kind of like it's more like
it's more like a chapino or a bullyad base because
it's brothier. Okay, but it definitely has like that. It
definitely has that short green rice kind of running through it.
You know. Obviously you can see the tomato in the
broth and shellfish stock in the broth. Looks so good.
I remember when I was in Lisbon, the first thing
(13:04):
I had, actually I just turned to the page was clams,
like steam clams with garlic and and sharizo and some
some cilantro. So good. Anyway, this book is a really
good book my Lisbon. I think it's it's it's by
a guy named new No Mendez. It's just, uh, it's it's.
It's one of those things where like like a country
like Portugal sort of gets a little bit sort of
(13:26):
left left in the dark a little bit compared to
places like Italy, Spain and France. And it shouldn't. Actually,
I would say that, you know, Portugal is really having
an amazing sort of moment. Everybody wants to go there,
and I don't blame them. Go alright, So I have
the kale done, and now I'm gonna make the dressing. Now.
Lane Johnson's book he makes it a very in a
(13:49):
very very classic way where he uses an egg yolk.
And you know, some people get freaked out about that
because of salmon e etcetera. I mean, I don't usually
even think about it. But one of the things that
you can do, and something one of the things that
I do sometimes is instead of using an egg, I
just use like a little, uh teaspoon of mayonnaise basically
the same things eggs in oil. Anyway, it's eggs, oil
(14:10):
and vinegar, right, so and and and the and the
egg the egg yolk is actually trying to create some
creaminess to the dressing. So so basically that's what that's
what the mayonnaise is gonna do. Anyway, so you can
certainly do that. So some red wine vinegar for the
acidity um, and then some Dijon mustard. Yeah it's a
(14:31):
little bit of bite of course, and then salt and pepper.
I don't know, I'm gonna put We have a mire
lemon sitting here, so I'm just gonna put some or
lemon juice in there. I just like the brightness of it,
and then some salt and pepper and then olive oil
and then you whisk it. Can you on the bowl
hold it? Yeah? Yeah? Thanks. So I'm whisking up the vinegar,
the lemon juice, a little bit of the mayonnaise which
(14:53):
is substituting for the egg yo, the red wine vinegar,
and I'm gonna slowly add in the olive oil, the
olive oil which you mostify. And Jonathan's recipe he has
fresh basil. Um, I don't have any basil's. That's the
way it is, okay. And then you want to taste this, Yeah,
(15:17):
well that's that's that's what the mainaise is. He tasted.
Oh you know what I am forgot the most important
ingredient anchovies, you know, which is like to me, the
anchovies are the key to life. Anchovies and bacon exactly.
But you know, anchovies are fantastic and addressing like this. Um,
(15:38):
it just has you know, so much incredible flavor and
you know, you know, you know what, the most classic
salad that has anchovies in it is sad us a salad,
And it's one of those things where like people don't
like anchovies, but they're like season salads, but they and
they don't realize if you don't put the anchovy on
top as a garden as they don't know. And so
I always say sneak anchovies, and of friends don't love it. Okay,
(16:05):
So then we had the dressing done. So do you
have any cookbooks you want to talk about? I love
Melissa Clark's Dinner Cookbook, which you bought me. So Melissa
(16:27):
Clark is a formidable food writer for the New York Times.
And I've known Melissa forever. She actually worked in Mason's
kitchen for a very short period of time when she
first started out. Oh, I didn't know that very very
early on. I think it was one of I think
it was her externship or internship or whatever. And she
worked in the patient department with Wayne Brackman. And so
I mean I knew I knew Melissa when I was
(16:48):
a younger person. But she's always been so sweet and
um so good at what her job. My my business
partner Lawrence swears by Melissa Clark. You know, luckily for us,
we have on speed dial when we need. I just
made last Thanksgiving. I made her pumpkin sticky buns. Sticky
buns like bun cakes. No no, no, no no no
(17:09):
no no no no. It was something else. It was
a sticky toffee pudding. Oh yeah, yeah, delicious. It was
in the Times, and I just sent her a note.
I was like, Melissa, I'm making this. She's like, I
was like, any like any any any like behind the
scenes notes I need, and she gave me a couple
of things to think about. But she was, you know,
obviously the recipe was spot on. She's like serving with
cramp fresh because it's sweet. She's right, you know, so
you get that nice, nice hardness. But like anything Melissa does,
(17:32):
her cookbooks are beautiful. They are you know, she's she's
a tried and true great cook. Any recipe she delivers
to you, either whether it's in the New York Times
or in one of her cookbooks or whatever, you know
that she's worked on it over and over until she
until she's perfected it. She's really she's really so good
at what she does. And there's a lot of variety
in that specific cookbook to like lots of different types
(17:52):
of cuisine. And when I was looking at it last night,
one of the things that I forgot to mention that
I learned how to make in during quarantine, during my
quarantine cooking school is her sheet pan Harrisa chicken with
leaks and potatoes, so easy, it's so delicious, Like I
really love Harrisa, and that's something I'm trying to incorporate
more and learn more recipes that have Harrisa because I
(18:15):
just love that flavor and that recipe is it's it's
full proof, like I I, it's amazing. I've also been
reading a lot about pasta because I'm opening a moufie
and Mark Vettriy has one of his tomes called Mastering Pasta,
and so you know, obviously he takes you through all
these different ways to create pasta dough, create pasta shapes
(18:39):
obviously you know, sauces to serve and cook with them,
and he walks you through, you know, the philosophy on
you know, what kind of dough works for what kind
of pasta. You know, whether it's a stuff pasta or
if it's a long pasta. You know when to use
dried pastas, when to use you know, fresh tomatoes versus
can tomatoes. You know all the things that you want
to know about. Making beautiful pasta dish is which he
(19:00):
does and has been doing in his restaurant, vetry, etcetera. Um,
he's got a new place called Fiarrella. I think that's
another thing that people have been cooking in quarantine. Learning
how to make their own pasta. Well, I would say
making pasta, your own pasta sheets and pasta middles is
like one of the most satisfying things I do. I've
never done it, You've never done it. You did it
with me. You're not gonna remember this when we made
(19:21):
bobster avioli. No, no, no, But do you remember a
couple of years ago, we were hanging out with a
bunch of our friends. It was a Sunday afternoon. We
went to brunch. Okay, I'm gonna paint a story for you.
We went to brunch. We were with like twelve of
our friends in New York. We went to the Loyal
and then we went around No, please don't tell those stories.
(19:45):
Then we then we went that was amazing that. Then
we went to around the corner to a bar called
the Spaniard, And then we were all looking at each other.
It was golden Globe to night, and everybody looked at
me and said, what are we doing for dinner? It's
golden globes. We should have a party at your house.
And then we ordered Chinese food. You and I went there, Sophie.
You were drunk. Oh my god? Oh wait was it?
(20:07):
It was cold? Okay, I know exactly what. I know
exactly what you're talking about. We went to that bar.
What was that bar called? We went to the Spaniard,
the Spaniard, okay. And then you and I went to
Whole Foods and we bought all the ingredients to make
fresh feed at cheeny Bolognese. Do you remember this? You
made the pasta? Yes, I remember this. You actually made
the pasta with me, But you don't remember. No. I
(20:30):
do remember that, God, because Brittany Urtin from tv G
was there. I mean, it was fun as it can big.
One way you you know my dad is if you're like,
you're like, oh, I think that's Bobby Flay. One way
you can really pinpoint him as if he's leaving Whole
Foods with one of those wheelie bags, one of those
wheely grocery suitcase. I don't use that for you. It's good.
(20:51):
Look if you think it's him, just look for the wheels.
That's ridiculous. Alright, Anyway, I digress. Now, what we're gonna do,
it's gonna take the dressing. And one of the things
that Jonathan says in his book is you you crush
the dress, dressing and the kale together. Like he literally
(21:13):
uses the word crush because he wants you to like
kind of as you were saying, like beat up the
kale or a bit with the dressing, which is what
like the opposite of what you would do for any
other side, do you want to be more gentle, But
with kale, it can really kind of take take it.
I'm able to address that. It's okay. We're gonna add
some pecorino cheese pacino, and then some bread crumbs. Now
(21:41):
these are Panco breadcrumbs I chose with a little bit
of you can put some anchovy in there as well,
just some olive oil and some salt and pepper. And
then what that's gonna do is it's gonna give it
like a little bit of a crunch. Yeah, I definitely
over dressed this. I got very enthusiastic the kale. The
kale can hold hold I like an overdressed salad. Do. Yeah,
(22:04):
you come to the right place exactly, and then some
bread crumbs right on the top. There you go. Yeah, delicious.
I mean we really went from this like tough, leathery
kale too, something much softer and massage. Well, it's tender.
It actually actually gets tender. And it's one of those
(22:25):
things where like I over dressed a little bit, but
it doesn't even matter. You like it. And then you
get the crunchiness from the from the bread crumbs, gives
it like lots of dimensions of texture. I mean, I
feel like I really taste the anchovy. It's very key.
It's very key. All right. I keep trying to find
my chicken because I wanted to show you to What's
(22:47):
what's Alex Kanshell's title? Yeah, I love Alex's new book
Cook with Me. It's so beautiful. She actually made me
something out of the book. She asked, I said, can
I request you that you make me something out of
your cookbook. It was a weekend. I was going out
to my house in the Hampton's and Alex has a
house out there as well, and she made me her
peanut butter chocolate tart and so but I said to you,
(23:11):
I was like, can I can you make it extra
peanut butter Reformation's like, no problem. Alex is such a
great cook. So her cookbook is beautiful. This new book
is just spectacular again, you know, a great book for
you know, we all as restaurant chests, which which Alex is,
we all start off cooking restaurant food for our cookbooks.
And the button the bottom line is those those books
(23:32):
are fun to look at, but they're not going to
be as easily easy to use as accessible. I'm looking
at this other book called My Mexico City Kitchen by
Gabriella Kamara. This book is stunning, and as you know,
I have a great affinity for Mexican and Southwestern ingredients.
I already like it because I am not seeing a
lot of ingredients on on the recipe list. What in
(23:55):
this book? Yeah, I mean, you know she's got you know,
tort does and taco you know, soft boiled egg tacos,
and then she has you know, waivers for and sharrows,
you know, fried tortillas, fried eggs, and salsa. I mean
it's very very simple, but like, this is a beautiful
cookbook and her food is just totally gorgeous. He also
does you know her versions of tuna tostadas, which a
(24:16):
lot of a lot of people give this restaurant and
this chef credit for, you know, really making popular or
creating even camonies, which are prawn stuffed with garlic. I
should try. You should never try to speak Spanish. And
then you know, potatoes with roasted Poblano chilies and Mexican
sour cream. I mean, come on, sounds so good. I
love this kind of Okay, So if you were to
(24:37):
recommend three Staple classic cookbooks that everyone needs in their
in their kitchen, what would you recommend? Wow, that's tough.
I mean I would I would pick a couple out
of here for sure. I mean all the I mean
when you say Staple, I think like you want an
iron A Garden cookbook just clearly, well just because we
love her. Actually, I think she has a new cookbook
(24:57):
out too, but I haven't gotten it. Um, what's up in?
Don't do not put in on glast blast. You know
you definitely want to have an Inner Garden cookbook. I
always think that you should have the joy of cooking.
The joy of cooking has Like if you want pancakes,
they got them. You know what I'm saying. You want
waffle recipe, it's in there. You want a biscuit recipe? Like?
(25:18):
You know? That's that? That that's that was the first
cookbook I ever got. Your your your grandfather gave it
to me. What was your first cookbook? Bold American Food?
And that's the one where you're wearing a vest. Why
do you care about that? Why is that the important? Pause?
Easily one of the funniest photos I've ever seen. I
had a white T shirt on your vest. Is anyone
buying that book these days? It was written in hieroglyphics,
(25:40):
so it's really it's really hard to carry your old
American Food. It won the Best Design Cookbook of the year.
Oh my gosh, congratulations. Thanks. Oh it looks so cute.
I look like that was in a boy band or something.
I know, iculous the boys a bat Alright, time for
(26:04):
you to write a cookbook. Pass Always Hungry is created
by Bobby Flay and Sophie Flay. Our executive producer is
Christopher hasiotis Always Hungry is produced, edited, and mixed by
Jonathan Hods Tressler. Always Hungry is engineered by Sophie Flay.
For more podcast on my Heart Radio, visit the I
(26:24):
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Yeah, alright, guys, welcome to Always Hungry from My Heart Radio.
My name is Bobby Flay, and I'm here with my
daughter and co host, and I'm always Hungry. Sophie and
I gather around my stove to cook together. Well, you cook,
I asked the questions, and eat the food if there's
any food left. We come to the table together to
(00:20):
share a meal, connect as a family, and tell the
stories that matter to us. Okay, Dad, why don't you
tell everyone what we're talking about today? This is the
place where I steal on my recipes cookbooks. Let's do it.
So today we're talking about cookbooks. I mean, I want
to talk about a few that have been around for
a while, for a long time, and then some newer
(00:42):
ones as well that are that are sort of striking
or you know, piquing my interest. What about you? Like,
I don't use cookbooks that much, but I have a
few that are very like reliable in my kitchen that
you probably know all too well, and we can talk
about how we use them. Okay, let's do it, all right, So,
I think the first one I want to talk about
is my mentor, Jonathan Waxman, has you know, well he
(01:05):
had a restaurant called Barbuto, which is an interesting it's
it's very interesting to me because I worked from him
in the early eighties. Okay, so that was the one
you were like negative fourteen years old. And you know,
Jonathan was the first person to bring California cuisine and
its ingredients to the East Coast. And that's where I
learned a lot about Southwestern ingredients. Blue corn, you know,
(01:28):
corner of every iteration, you know, you know beans, you know,
chili peppers. I mean, you know, all those ingredients were
very new to the East Coast. It was very It
was much more on the West Coast, obviously taking its
queue from Mexico and the southwest of the United States,
but the East Coast had not seen that kind of food. Um,
and Jonathan was the first person to bring those kinds
(01:48):
of ingredients. It was California slash Southwestern ingrediency to the
East Coast. And I was lucky enough just to be
in the right place at the right time, and I
fell in love with those ingredients and I went off
to hone my skills and created Masa grill, etcetera. But
that's another story. Jonathan like a lot of a lot
of us in the chef world has evolved into his
love of you know, Italian food, which you know, by
(02:12):
the way, I'm feeling that myself. And um, you know,
he opened Barbuto. I I don't know how long ago was,
ten years ago, who knows, But anyway, he came out
with his Barbuto cookbook. I wrote the foreword to his
very first cookbook. I did not the rite. I did
not write the foreward to this one. Marcus Samuelson wrote
the forward to this point. But basically, this is a
collection of recipes, you know, based on the book and
(02:35):
but based on the restaurant. And they're very very and
I mean this is in the best way. They're very simple.
You know, there's a handful of ingredients. They're very very
sort of simple classic I would say California. It's like
Italian meets California, right, Calatality used to call it. And
and and you know, so you have like his his
spectacular roasted chicken with salsa verde, you know, you know,
(02:56):
bucatini with pesto. I mean that's just you know, Swiss chart.
He's got a he's got a recipe called little fish risotto.
I don't even show what that means. But I always,
you know, I always think of anyway red mullet or
something like that, you know, lamb chops with mint butter,
you know, ducks and peas and Morrel's I mean it
goes on and on and his book, his book is
something that I've used a lot, I mean just at home,
(03:19):
like during you know, when being at home and having
to cook a lot. Like it's it's such a it's
such a it's an enticing book because like anybody else,
even a professional cook, like sometimes you just want recipes
that have like five ingredients exactly, not of books exactly. Okay,
so we're gonna make the We're gonna make Jonathan Waxman's
(03:41):
kale salad from Barbug, which is you know, it's a Listen,
it wasn't too long ago that cal was a throwaway ingredient.
I know. It's true, nobody wanted an ekale, but now
everybody wants the ecale and and and like kale's like
become so popular. It's almost like it's like there's been
a backlash about like no kale. Well, I feel like
people didn't know how to use kale before, like in
(04:03):
the best way. Well, Also there's different kinds of kale,
Like I love using this kale, you know, black kil
or dinosaur kale or tusken kale. Um, it's like a
darker green. It's very crinkly. Sometimes like the more curly
green kale is not as good. But but I love
this this, this tuscan kale, this is this is a
good one to use for for salads. And you know,
(04:26):
kale is a very hearty green. You know, it's not
it's not a tender green. It's got it's got some
foundations to it. And and one of the one of
the keys to to um, one of the keys to
making a really good kale salad is actually kind of tender.
Rising the kale itself. You kind of beat it up, right,
you know, so you can cut it, you can rub it,
you can you know, you almost you just really want to,
(04:50):
like um, you want to try to bruise it. Yeah, exactly.
You know. There were so there were some books that
I think about that are just part of my permanent library.
And let's put it this way. I'm never throwing a
cookbook away, so they're always going to be permanent. But
there are some that you just reach for more over
(05:12):
and over, just the way it is. And the Zuni
Cafe Cookbook, written by the late Judy Rogers, she passed
away a handful of years ago at at at a
very unfortunate early age um restaurant in San Francisco. You know,
actually her one of her famous tsues was also a
roasted chicken, and it had like this, like it was
a roasted chicken with this salad kind of wrapped around it.
(05:34):
I mean, so delicious, like using the chicken fat for
their dressing. And it's just really classic way to cook.
But the thing about the Zunny Cafe Cookbook, if you
can get your hands on one, get it. She talks
to you as if she's sitting across from you while
you're cooking. So it doesn't feel like it's in cookbook pros.
You know what you see him saying, it's written speech.
(05:56):
There's something about it. So like, so while you're reading
the book and you're actually doing the recipe, you hear
you hear them talking to you. Is if I know
who you are, now, this is what it's supposed to
look like at this point, you're right, you can hear
their voice. Another book that I like a kind of
a Newish book is a book called Bitter Honey. And
it's written by a woman named Latitia Clark. Now I
(06:18):
don't know her, but she's sort of a person after
my own heart in terms of like her journey here.
She was born in Devon, in England, and you know,
she I'm just gonna I'm just gonna read you a
very quick excerpt. And she said, when I and and
this is about Sardinian cooking. Bitter Honey. Okay, so it's
it's Italian food, you know, sort of like like it's
(06:39):
sort of like Italian island food. She said. When I
arrived in Sardinia, I had spent the last few years
cooking in professional kitchens. I cooked for a living, but
I didn't live to cook. Cooking had becomes something I
no longer did for love. And then suddenly a small
round Sardinian popped into my life. We worked together. He
on the fryar me on the grill. He used to
(07:00):
feed me crispy fried things when no one was looking.
On our first day, he invited me to his home
for supper, handing me a glass of wine and a
pair of slippers, and proceed to cook me pasta. I
mean and then basically, I mean, I'm not gonna be
the rest, but basically she found a new life, you know.
And there's a movie if you haven't seen this movie,
My favorite movie that involves food is a movie called
(07:23):
Mostly Martha. It's a German movie, so it's it's subtitled,
but it's about an Italian restaurant in Germany and there's
a love affair involved in the kitchen. It's very beautiful
and and and so when I read Lutitia's introduction here,
it kind of reminded me of that you know, she
got she got wowed by Sardinia, but also you know
(07:44):
by you know, the food and and cooking along with
somebody that she kind of fell for, and you know
it's it's, you know, cooking become that lifestyle. Like my
dream is to like live in Italy one day and
just cook lunch for my friends. I mean I'm doing
that now, except them not in Italy anyway. So Latiia Clark,
I love her stuff. You know, if you want, if
(08:05):
you want to do things like um, you know, fritto
misto or you know, she's got a pair pecorino and
ricotta ravioli, and then you know she does like like
I love this, like persimmon pursciutto and dies peccorina, when
walnuts like a beautiful a beautiful Actually yeah, well it
sounds like me. But but you know you're using all
these beautiful Italian ingredients, and you know, she's she's sort
(08:27):
of having her tuscan and the sun part of her life,
which is maybe we'll be forever. You know who knows
grilled octopus with lemon and potato puree, fried fish with
saffron ioli, and then you know porks at pork and
anchovy sauce just goes on and on all right. So
that's Bitter Honey, really good book. So you just you
(08:58):
just kind of ripped up the care of leaves and
now you're chopping down, ripped the key kale leaves off,
and you know, you take them off the stems because
the stems are just not edible. They're just they're just
they're just too firm. Um. So I'm going from chopping
up the kale and I think, you know, I think,
you know, cal should be kind up into smaller pieces.
So that has this salad been around for a long time?
(09:21):
I mean yeah, I mean when I go to Barbuto.
I mean when I go to Barbuto, like the must
things on the table are obviously his chicken chicken salver
and um salad, kale salad. Yeah, and then like you know,
you get like pasta carbonara, those amazing potatoes like with
(09:46):
the with the rosemary and the parmigiano. I know you're
talking like as if you don't go to that restaurant
and order everything on the menu. You're one of those
people that's like, oh, let's try this, and let's try this.
Actually we'll just get one of everything. You're right, that's you,
which is, hey, why take a good person to be
with when you're going out to launch for dinner? We'll
take the media exactly. So here's here's one that's kind
(10:11):
of cool. I love Lisbon. Okay, you know what I
forgot that you love Lisbon my favorite trip I've ever
been on. No offense, I wasn't with you. Wait what Okay,
So this book is called My Lisbon. Obviously it's about Portugal, Lisbon, Portugal,
and you know what, let's talk about Lisbon. Why did
you love it so much? I mean I loved the food.
(10:34):
Here's what I really want to know, Like when you
listen when when how old were you when you went there?
You were in college. So when you're in college and
you're that age, like you can say it was the
best trip of my life. But that might necessarily mean
you so like great art. Right, Well sure, but I
mean we hopped off the plane, we rented a car
from the airport. We drove to Logos, went immediately to
(10:55):
the water. It was spectacular. People were buying san Gria
from a little shaw like on the rocks, and you
just like laid on your towel and drank sat gria
and you know, listen, listened and watched all these beautiful people.
And then we stayed at night there. It was I
was with my girlfriends and but but I just have
to ask you this, but like was it like, were
(11:16):
you guys met some like a nice Portuguese gentleman or
anything like that. Not until the third day. Okay, So
that's so that's part of your great trip. No, I mean,
I'm I'm I'm kidding. I'm talking about a guy who
drove us to the top of of like to go
see like an amazing, amazing site. Like No, it was
it was a girl's trip for one of my my
girlfriend's birthdays and we went to CenTra. There's this beautiful
(11:38):
castle in CenTra, but it's a hike up up like
a mountain, and so this guy in this little tut
tut car was like, hop in with twenty bucks, I'll
take you to the top. And it was amazing. Yeah,
I mean I I. And also I love the food
of Lisbon because well, first of all, you know, it's
the fish and Lisbon is amazing. I'm looking at this
tree right now, muscles with cheriesa tomato and peppers. It's
(11:59):
like it has a lot of Spanish influence, and like
you'll see Spain and you'll see you'll see it literally
you'll see all over the Mediterranean. But but, but, but
the thing about Portuguese food is it certainly has its
own own direction for sure. But with scrambled eggs with
smoked sausage, I mean that sounds so good. Another another
part of like eating and drinking culture that I love
(12:22):
in in Lisbon and and in Europe is like the
open container laws. I love seeing people. It's fun. I
totally agree, there's like some camaraderie behind it. I don't know.
I like that. And also like Portuguese wines are really
good too, really fantastic, but unlike I'm thinking about having
a nice crisp Portuguese wine with this shrimp and shellfish rice.
(12:44):
Look at this picture, Sophie, It's like it's you know,
it's like almost it's kind of like it's more like
it's more like a chapino or a bullyad base because
it's brothier. Okay, but it definitely has like that. It
definitely has that short green rice kind of running through it.
You know. Obviously you can see the tomato in the
broth and shellfish stock in the broth. Looks so good.
I remember when I was in Lisbon, the first thing
(13:04):
I had, actually I just turned to the page was clams,
like steam clams with garlic and and sharizo and some
some cilantro. So good. Anyway, this book is a really
good book my Lisbon. I think it's it's it's by
a guy named new No Mendez. It's just, uh, it's it's.
It's one of those things where like like a country
like Portugal sort of gets a little bit sort of
(13:26):
left left in the dark a little bit compared to
places like Italy, Spain and France. And it shouldn't. Actually,
I would say that, you know, Portugal is really having
an amazing sort of moment. Everybody wants to go there,
and I don't blame them. Go alright, So I have
the kale done, and now I'm gonna make the dressing. Now.
Lane Johnson's book he makes it a very in a
(13:49):
very very classic way where he uses an egg yolk.
And you know, some people get freaked out about that
because of salmon e etcetera. I mean, I don't usually
even think about it. But one of the things that
you can do, and something one of the things that
I do sometimes is instead of using an egg, I
just use like a little, uh teaspoon of mayonnaise basically
the same things eggs in oil. Anyway, it's eggs, oil
(14:10):
and vinegar, right, so and and and the and the
egg the egg yolk is actually trying to create some
creaminess to the dressing. So so basically that's what that's
what the mayonnaise is gonna do. Anyway, so you can
certainly do that. So some red wine vinegar for the
acidity um, and then some Dijon mustard. Yeah it's a
(14:31):
little bit of bite of course, and then salt and pepper.
I don't know, I'm gonna put We have a mire
lemon sitting here, so I'm just gonna put some or
lemon juice in there. I just like the brightness of it,
and then some salt and pepper and then olive oil
and then you whisk it. Can you on the bowl
hold it? Yeah? Yeah? Thanks. So I'm whisking up the vinegar,
the lemon juice, a little bit of the mayonnaise which
(14:53):
is substituting for the egg yo, the red wine vinegar,
and I'm gonna slowly add in the olive oil, the
olive oil which you mostify. And Jonathan's recipe he has
fresh basil. Um, I don't have any basil's. That's the
way it is, okay. And then you want to taste this, Yeah,
(15:17):
well that's that's that's what the mainaise is. He tasted.
Oh you know what I am forgot the most important
ingredient anchovies, you know, which is like to me, the
anchovies are the key to life. Anchovies and bacon exactly.
But you know, anchovies are fantastic and addressing like this. Um,
(15:38):
it just has you know, so much incredible flavor and
you know, you know, you know what, the most classic
salad that has anchovies in it is sad us a salad,
And it's one of those things where like people don't
like anchovies, but they're like season salads, but they and
they don't realize if you don't put the anchovy on
top as a garden as they don't know. And so
I always say sneak anchovies, and of friends don't love it. Okay,
(16:05):
So then we had the dressing done. So do you
have any cookbooks you want to talk about? I love
Melissa Clark's Dinner Cookbook, which you bought me. So Melissa
(16:27):
Clark is a formidable food writer for the New York Times.
And I've known Melissa forever. She actually worked in Mason's
kitchen for a very short period of time when she
first started out. Oh, I didn't know that very very
early on. I think it was one of I think
it was her externship or internship or whatever. And she
worked in the patient department with Wayne Brackman. And so
I mean I knew I knew Melissa when I was
(16:48):
a younger person. But she's always been so sweet and
um so good at what her job. My my business
partner Lawrence swears by Melissa Clark. You know, luckily for us,
we have on speed dial when we need. I just
made last Thanksgiving. I made her pumpkin sticky buns. Sticky
buns like bun cakes. No no, no, no no no
(17:09):
no no no no. It was something else. It was
a sticky toffee pudding. Oh yeah, yeah, delicious. It was
in the Times, and I just sent her a note.
I was like, Melissa, I'm making this. She's like, I
was like, any like any any any like behind the
scenes notes I need, and she gave me a couple
of things to think about. But she was, you know,
obviously the recipe was spot on. She's like serving with
cramp fresh because it's sweet. She's right, you know, so
you get that nice, nice hardness. But like anything Melissa does,
(17:32):
her cookbooks are beautiful. They are you know, she's she's
a tried and true great cook. Any recipe she delivers
to you, either whether it's in the New York Times
or in one of her cookbooks or whatever, you know
that she's worked on it over and over until she
until she's perfected it. She's really she's really so good
at what she does. And there's a lot of variety
in that specific cookbook to like lots of different types
(17:52):
of cuisine. And when I was looking at it last night,
one of the things that I forgot to mention that
I learned how to make in during quarantine, during my
quarantine cooking school is her sheet pan Harrisa chicken with
leaks and potatoes, so easy, it's so delicious, Like I
really love Harrisa, and that's something I'm trying to incorporate
more and learn more recipes that have Harrisa because I
(18:15):
just love that flavor and that recipe is it's it's
full proof, like I I, it's amazing. I've also been
reading a lot about pasta because I'm opening a moufie
and Mark Vettriy has one of his tomes called Mastering Pasta,
and so you know, obviously he takes you through all
these different ways to create pasta dough, create pasta shapes
(18:39):
obviously you know, sauces to serve and cook with them,
and he walks you through, you know, the philosophy on
you know, what kind of dough works for what kind
of pasta. You know, whether it's a stuff pasta or
if it's a long pasta. You know when to use
dried pastas, when to use you know, fresh tomatoes versus
can tomatoes. You know all the things that you want
to know about. Making beautiful pasta dish is which he
(19:00):
does and has been doing in his restaurant, vetry, etcetera. Um,
he's got a new place called Fiarrella. I think that's
another thing that people have been cooking in quarantine. Learning
how to make their own pasta. Well, I would say
making pasta, your own pasta sheets and pasta middles is
like one of the most satisfying things I do. I've
never done it, You've never done it. You did it
with me. You're not gonna remember this when we made
(19:21):
bobster avioli. No, no, no, But do you remember a
couple of years ago, we were hanging out with a
bunch of our friends. It was a Sunday afternoon. We
went to brunch. Okay, I'm gonna paint a story for you.
We went to brunch. We were with like twelve of
our friends in New York. We went to the Loyal
and then we went around No, please don't tell those stories.
(19:45):
Then we then we went that was amazing that. Then
we went to around the corner to a bar called
the Spaniard, And then we were all looking at each other.
It was golden Globe to night, and everybody looked at
me and said, what are we doing for dinner? It's
golden globes. We should have a party at your house.
And then we ordered Chinese food. You and I went there, Sophie.
You were drunk. Oh my god? Oh wait was it?
(20:07):
It was cold? Okay, I know exactly what. I know
exactly what you're talking about. We went to that bar.
What was that bar called? We went to the Spaniard,
the Spaniard, okay. And then you and I went to
Whole Foods and we bought all the ingredients to make
fresh feed at cheeny Bolognese. Do you remember this? You
made the pasta? Yes, I remember this. You actually made
the pasta with me, But you don't remember. No. I
(20:30):
do remember that, God, because Brittany Urtin from tv G
was there. I mean, it was fun as it can big.
One way you you know my dad is if you're like,
you're like, oh, I think that's Bobby Flay. One way
you can really pinpoint him as if he's leaving Whole
Foods with one of those wheelie bags, one of those
wheely grocery suitcase. I don't use that for you. It's good.
(20:51):
Look if you think it's him, just look for the wheels.
That's ridiculous. Alright, Anyway, I digress. Now, what we're gonna do,
it's gonna take the dressing. And one of the things
that Jonathan says in his book is you you crush
the dress, dressing and the kale together. Like he literally
(21:13):
uses the word crush because he wants you to like
kind of as you were saying, like beat up the
kale or a bit with the dressing, which is what
like the opposite of what you would do for any
other side, do you want to be more gentle, But
with kale, it can really kind of take take it.
I'm able to address that. It's okay. We're gonna add
some pecorino cheese pacino, and then some bread crumbs. Now
(21:41):
these are Panco breadcrumbs I chose with a little bit
of you can put some anchovy in there as well,
just some olive oil and some salt and pepper. And
then what that's gonna do is it's gonna give it
like a little bit of a crunch. Yeah, I definitely
over dressed this. I got very enthusiastic the kale. The
kale can hold hold I like an overdressed salad. Do. Yeah,
(22:04):
you come to the right place exactly, and then some
bread crumbs right on the top. There you go. Yeah, delicious.
I mean we really went from this like tough, leathery
kale too, something much softer and massage. Well, it's tender.
It actually actually gets tender. And it's one of those
(22:25):
things where like I over dressed a little bit, but
it doesn't even matter. You like it. And then you
get the crunchiness from the from the bread crumbs, gives
it like lots of dimensions of texture. I mean, I
feel like I really taste the anchovy. It's very key.
It's very key. All right. I keep trying to find
my chicken because I wanted to show you to What's
(22:47):
what's Alex Kanshell's title? Yeah, I love Alex's new book
Cook with Me. It's so beautiful. She actually made me
something out of the book. She asked, I said, can
I request you that you make me something out of
your cookbook. It was a weekend. I was going out
to my house in the Hampton's and Alex has a
house out there as well, and she made me her
peanut butter chocolate tart and so but I said to you,
(23:11):
I was like, can I can you make it extra
peanut butter Reformation's like, no problem. Alex is such a
great cook. So her cookbook is beautiful. This new book
is just spectacular again, you know, a great book for
you know, we all as restaurant chests, which which Alex is,
we all start off cooking restaurant food for our cookbooks.
And the button the bottom line is those those books
(23:32):
are fun to look at, but they're not going to
be as easily easy to use as accessible. I'm looking
at this other book called My Mexico City Kitchen by
Gabriella Kamara. This book is stunning, and as you know,
I have a great affinity for Mexican and Southwestern ingredients.
I already like it because I am not seeing a
lot of ingredients on on the recipe list. What in
(23:55):
this book? Yeah, I mean, you know she's got you know,
tort does and taco you know, soft boiled egg tacos,
and then she has you know, waivers for and sharrows,
you know, fried tortillas, fried eggs, and salsa. I mean
it's very very simple, but like, this is a beautiful
cookbook and her food is just totally gorgeous. He also
does you know her versions of tuna tostadas, which a
(24:16):
lot of a lot of people give this restaurant and
this chef credit for, you know, really making popular or
creating even camonies, which are prawn stuffed with garlic. I
should try. You should never try to speak Spanish. And
then you know, potatoes with roasted Poblano chilies and Mexican
sour cream. I mean, come on, sounds so good. I
love this kind of Okay, So if you were to
(24:37):
recommend three Staple classic cookbooks that everyone needs in their
in their kitchen, what would you recommend? Wow, that's tough.
I mean I would I would pick a couple out
of here for sure. I mean all the I mean
when you say Staple, I think like you want an
iron A Garden cookbook just clearly, well just because we
love her. Actually, I think she has a new cookbook
(24:57):
out too, but I haven't gotten it. Um, what's up in?
Don't do not put in on glast blast. You know
you definitely want to have an Inner Garden cookbook. I
always think that you should have the joy of cooking.
The joy of cooking has Like if you want pancakes,
they got them. You know what I'm saying. You want
waffle recipe, it's in there. You want a biscuit recipe? Like?
(25:18):
You know? That's that? That that's that was the first
cookbook I ever got. Your your your grandfather gave it
to me. What was your first cookbook? Bold American Food?
And that's the one where you're wearing a vest. Why
do you care about that? Why is that the important? Pause?
Easily one of the funniest photos I've ever seen. I
had a white T shirt on your vest. Is anyone
buying that book these days? It was written in hieroglyphics,
(25:40):
so it's really it's really hard to carry your old
American Food. It won the Best Design Cookbook of the year.
Oh my gosh, congratulations. Thanks. Oh it looks so cute.
I look like that was in a boy band or something.
I know, iculous the boys a bat Alright, time for
(26:04):
you to write a cookbook. Pass Always Hungry is created
by Bobby Flay and Sophie Flay. Our executive producer is
Christopher hasiotis Always Hungry is produced, edited, and mixed by
Jonathan Hods Tressler. Always Hungry is engineered by Sophie Flay.
For more podcast on my Heart Radio, visit the I
(26:24):
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
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The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.