August 24, 2021 • 22 mins
In this episode, Bobby & Sophie cover Restaurant Reviews. Bobby shares stories from an era where critics from print journalism held huge power over the success of a new restaurant. Then Bobby and Sophie discuss how things have evolved over time, and where they're checking out reviews for new restaurants in today's media landscape. Finally, Bobby teaches Sophie a dish that was always reviewed very favorably by critics.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, guys, welcome to Always Hungry from My Heart Radio.
My name is Bobby Flay, and I'm here with my
daughter and co host. I am Sophie Flay, and I'm
Always Hungry. Sophie and I gather around my stove to
cook together. Well, you cook, I asked the questions, and
eat the food if there's any food left. We come
to the table together to share a meal, connect as
a family, and tell the stories that matter to us.
All right, So if today we're talking about one of
(00:27):
my most anxious subjects, restaurant reviews, Yeah, exactly, restaurant reviews
in the newspapers, online, in people's heads, face to face,
word of mouth. You name it as a career restaurant tour.
It's the thing I dream about most. Everyone's a critic.
Let's get into it. So today we're gonna make um, Yeah,
(00:52):
we're telling about restaurant reviews. So I'm gonna I'm gonna
talk about a dish that that gott got, you know,
got constantly got well reviewed, you know, basically across the board.
And it's an interesting dish because it's a steamed halibit
dish and steaming steaming things or steaming fish doesn't necessarily
always evoke like lots of deliciousness because it's steamed as
(01:14):
opposed to sutete or roasted or you know. But I
think what I think what it did was this halibit
is so silky that um. By steaming the fish, it
just kept it kept that that integrity of the texture. Um.
And then what I did was I paired it with
a sauce, a broth really that had tomatoes and fennel, onions, um,
(01:40):
some saffron, some garlic, and then we let the fish
sit in the broth. And then on top of it
was a green olive relish that had fresh mint in it. Yeah. Yeah,
I love adding fennel to fish. You do. Not everybody
loves fennel. I love fennel, you do. So I have
some aromatics in this this steaming broth. We have some
(02:03):
onions and garlic, We have some line, we have some
bay leaf. You just wanna you don't want to overpower it.
You just want to uh to steam the fish, and
then you want to cover it so that it steams.
All right. So today we're talking about restaurant reviews. This
is this is a really fun idea to me because
I don't. We don't. We haven't really talked about this
this much in terms of what in terms, I've never
(02:24):
really talked to you about your reviews. I've watched you
in like, you know, when you first opened a restaurant,
and you literally don't leave the restaurant for I don't know,
to three months, like it's like you live there, but
before it gets reviewed. It usually gets reviewed within the
first two to three months. Now got months and months? Oh,
I guess I didn't realize that then maybe I got
the time. I think Pete Wells were trying to figure
(02:44):
out if I was gonna like just abandon the restaurant
or something, you know, which is sort of a common
you know, I get that all the time because I'm
on television a lot that I'm not in my restaurants.
The bottom line is, I'm in my restaurants all the time, constantly,
sane amount of time, you know, maybe more than some
others not. You know, you are literally always in your
restaurants always, and and it's because I love being in them.
(03:05):
It's not because I feel like I have to be there,
which I do have to be there, but I also
like being there. Right it's um to me. It's it's
the most joyous place for me. But it is crazy though.
I mean, I I always like say, I have no
idea where you get all this energy from, because I'll
watch you shoot like three episodes of Beat and then
go straight to the restaurant at like four pm and
(03:26):
you're working all night. And that's a whole other grind
in itself. It's crazy. You're always in your restaurants, always
have been, yeah, I mean, and that's why they have longevity.
I mean, I'll just take you through my the longevity
of my restaurant history. So Masa Grill in New York City,
the original Masa Grill open open for twenty six years,
twenty six years. Sophie older than me. No, I know,
(03:49):
it's crazy. Twenty six years, Bolo fifteen years again went
the full a long time, full boat of its lease.
Then they knocked the building down. I had a restaurant
called Masa City for a very short period of time,
it was about two years. Didn't quite work the way
I wanted it to work. It was sort of a
casual version of Masa Grill. Was that Premasa Girl? No,
(04:10):
it was after Masa Grill. Oh, I don't remember that
it was. It was in the Upper east Side. Was
I alive? Yes, I remember taking you there. I'm just
I'm not joking. I remember taking you there. You were
in a in a halloween green pea outfit, you know,
like a p Yeah, I took you there in a
pea pod outfit. Was it actually Halloween? It was the
(04:34):
Halloween season? Oh my god. No, you had no idea
what that restaurant. And actually that restaurant got two stars
from muth Rachel, which frankly, I was surprised by. She
liked it for what it was. And you know, a
friend of mine bought it from me on the street
corner one night. He's like, I really wanted restaurant for
(04:56):
the Upper east Side. He had he had this, he
had the Southeastern Asian restaurant called Rain, and he wanted
to open one on the Upper east Side. And I
sold to him on the street corn one night. It
was it was not it was Mason City was not
satisfying my It just it almost had almost had nothing
to do with money. We were busy enough, but it
just didn't. It wasn't satisfying me from a culinary standpoint.
(05:18):
So I gave it up. Then Bar American fifteen years,
full Boat of the six great restaurant Bar American Connecticut
ten years, Bobby flay Stake fifteen years, Mason Grill in
the Bahamas eleven years, Mason Grill was Vegas sixteen years.
Jesus Christ, there's a lot of years. And then Gato
(05:40):
seven years was cut short because of the pandemic. But
it is what it is, got seven great years out
of it. One of my one of my one of
my favorite restaurant eras ever, it was the first restaurant
I had to open in in New York City in
ten years, and people like, oh, he's making a comeback, comeback.
I didn't go anywhere like I mean, I mean, I'm
(06:00):
in I'm in my restaurants all over the place. It
was just like I just hadn't open one in New
York City and that in that amount of time. And then, um,
you know, now we have a Moufie in Vegas, which
I love, and then of course you know there's all
the Bobby's Burgers, et cetera. But restaurant reviews are an
incredibly important part of a restaurants success. So let the
(06:41):
fish steam and then while that's happening. We can make
our brothay the broth. I started with some onions and
some garlic, some fennel, some some tomato, some white wine,
some fish stock, and then um, let it cook for
a while, and as saffron as well, a little orange yellow. Yeah, beautiful,
(07:01):
it's very bright. But I'm gonna purate that. Okay in
the food processing. I'm gonna purate it. Yeah, exactly who
it's going everywhere you smell that. You can smell the saffron, Wow,
you really can. Well, it's so good. Yeah. So then
let's give this a taste. How is it? It's okay.
(07:23):
It needs a little salt and pepper, and I'm gonna
put some Collabrian chili in there as well. Okay, well
I'm gonna add one more ingredient to that. Okay, fish
is almost done steaming away so quick. So I have
this ant shall be butter, which always makes everything fish
(07:45):
tasted better. And then we're gonna take the ant shall
be butter. Just finish it. Well. That tastes good, dad,
does it? Yeah? Very light and healthy, but just like
so much of your flavors. Correct me if I'm wrong,
But I kind of love the idea that I don't
(08:07):
know if you still do this, but I feel like,
I remember, are you telling me that in your restaurants,
you know, there's you have like faces and names of critics,
absolutely like in the kitchen. Well, look, let's let's this.
This is a really interesting topic because you and I
come from two different generations, and things have changed a
(08:28):
lot in the media over the last you know, a
couple of decades. Of course, when I first started in
the restaurant business, I was in my twenties. There were
two things that mattered The New York Times New York
magazine in New York City, and the New York Times
was ten times more important than New York Magazine. It's
just that that was the vehicle, and everything else only
(08:51):
mattered a little bit. Like if you added up everything else,
it wouldn't equal either one of those two things. So
Gal Green was the restaurant critic for New York Magazine
at the time, and when when I opened Masa Grille,
she named Mason Grille the best new restaurant of the
year in New York City. That's a big accomplishment, and
she sort of set me off into onto this path.
(09:12):
The new York New York Times came in and gave
us a glowing review, a glowing two star review, and
you know, Mason Grille was off to the races, you know,
at last for twenty six years. I will tell you
that I got reviewed two more times at Mason Grill
over the lifetime of the restaurant. We got a great
two star review from Bill Grimes, and then I got
(09:32):
a one star review from Frank Brunei, which was literally
one of the worst days of my life because it
was the only time I ever got taken down a star.
The bottom line is, you know, he said I took
my eye off the off the restaurant, and maybe he
was right. You know, there was definitely it was definitely
not our heyday moment of the restaurant. But when you
(09:55):
have a restaurant for twenty six years, there are you know,
the salad days, so to speak, and then there are
days where the restaurant is not at its best. It's
it's a living, breathing thing. And basically, he caught me
in a moment where it could have been better. And
I called him up and I thanked him for coming
into the restaurant and reviewing us and he to this
(10:15):
day will mention that I did that like because people
that get you know, unfavorable reviews don't usually call the
critic and thank them. But the bottom line is, I'm
in the business of putting myself on the line in
terms of you know, critics, customers, reviews, etcetera. And it
is what it is. I've been really lucky. I think
(10:36):
it's important for you to explain what the stars mean. Well.
In the New York Times is one, two, three, four stars,
and there's also are also satisfactory and poor. You don't
want poor or satisfactory one star and and frankly like
one star, two star, three star, four stars. They all
have different meanings based on the level of the restaurant.
So if you're a neighborhood restaurant in New York City
(10:58):
and you know you don't it's not it's not formal.
It's a very casual restaurant, not that expensive. It's very
sort of value oriented. It's a mom and pop organization.
And you get a good one star review, that's a
good review, right if you you know, if you are
trying to be a four star restaurant, you know you're
John George von Richt and you're Danielle, your high high end. Okay,
(11:21):
if you get two stars, those guys want to kill
themselves because they're trying to achieve a level that starts
at three stars. Okay. My restaurants, for the most part,
I would say, are in the two star range. Could
get three. Could but it might be a tiny bit
to raucous. I don't mean that like they're out of control,
(11:44):
but just like there's a there's a certain energy that
that might give the critics some trepidation of giving a
third star, even if they really like it. But I'm
happy with very, very very good, solid two star reviews.
That's basically how it made my career. Got it? Like
you you asking me about, like you know, do we
have pictures of the critics, like you know, Pete Wells.
Pete Wells knows that, like you know, the New York
(12:07):
Times critic knows that, like we it's part of our
job to know their alias. Is their phone numbers, their friends,
phone numbers, where they live when they're like, what they're there,
what their disguises are, What are the things they like
to drinks? Do they come in and disguises? Ruth used
to come in and disguises all the time, like real disguises,
(12:28):
wakes in the whole nine. Really, yeah, she's I think
she really loved it. That's really fun. Actually, ruthsh was cool.
But so when you notice that the critics in your restaurant,
are you sending out extra food? Not to them? Oh no, No,
that's the other thing. It's this sort of dance where
like we make believe that we don't know that they're there,
and they know that we know that they're there, but
like nobody. Yeah, so you can't know. It's not cool
(12:52):
to send the critic food because that's like that's too much.
You just have to send them, you know. And also
here's the thing that I started doing, which was years ago.
When the critic came in, it was like high alert.
I would send the kitchen into a fucking hurricane, right
because this is it. You know that your Times critic
is here, like oh my god, and they come like
(13:12):
somewhere between three and five times. And then you know
what I started doing, Like at Gato, I told no one.
I would tell the manager if Pete comes in, I
want you to walk into the kitchen, pull me aside
and tell me in my ear because my staff was
cooking really great food. To add the pressure to it,
they're gonna make mistakes. I don't want them over thinking
(13:33):
of it, thinking it. I just want I didn't and
and and also what happens is you stop the entire restaurant.
No one gets fed but the critic. And that's not
good either, because frankly, they know, they know, they know
exactly what's going on around them. They can tell if,
like if if their presence is like sent the place
into disaster, and that's not good for and they're they're
(13:55):
supposed to be speaking not only for them, they're speaking
for everybody. So if they treated differently, that's something else
that could be really not good. There's been some high
end restaurants that got bad reviews based on the fact
that they got treated They were treating the customer differently
than the critic. And so that's of course you're going
to make sure that the critic food critics food looks right.
(14:17):
But I didn't tell anybody. I just I just let
a body cook. That's really interesting. Yeah, probably better that
right now, totally better. Do you tell them afterwards? Do
they freak out? Yes, but like not right afterwards, like
maybe an hour and a half laid. I'll be like,
by the way, we've had the time today. What wait?
What was the dishes? Doesn't matter chopping up some parsley, Yeah,
(14:58):
I mean I usually put some shives in there. So
basically you're gonna pour the broth over the fish. Really
beautiful and this is really light, very light and flavorful.
Usually I would make some like an olive and minute
relish to put on top, but it's so pretty. This
is this is how dish gets good reviews well, because
(15:20):
it's beautiful to look at, It has a lot of
flavor in the broth. The fish is kind of like
bathing exactly. Then you have a contrast of texture from
from the olives and the and the mint relish, and
then of course the fish has to be cooked right right, satisfying.
It's so good overall if you're doing a good job,
(15:44):
but you're gonna have a successful restaurant because, ultimately, especially
now more than ever, the customer is reading reviews that
aren't just by single person with critics, but they're reading
reviews of groups of people, you know, So basically anyone
can be a critic. Now, of course social media man,
(16:04):
but basically I looked this up of people looking to
go to a restaurant, look up reviews online. That's a lot.
Where's that number from the internet, Dad, I need a source.
You really are a journalist. Well here just the road
a number. Here the top seven places that people get
(16:25):
reviews according to who Oh my god. Okay, you know
what forget to go ahead read the list. Google my business.
I'm serious, because what happens is you So when you
Google a restaurant, the first thing that comes up on
the right side, right side is our Google reviews. Okay,
that's number one. Number two is Facebook. Oh interesting, okay.
(16:48):
Number three is Yelp. Number four is trip Advisor because
people are going to trips, okay. Number five is Zomato.
Number six is open Table because they're making reservations, and
number seven is ZAG. It's still you know, Rock in
the House, you know Zag. It used to be such
an incredibly important print book. We'd all wait for the
(17:09):
print book to come out, like in October or something
and see what our numbers were. And now it's obviously online.
But that's interestingly how people are getting their reviews. Now.
There's a there's an industry website called eater, which they
they're in lots of lots of these sort of restaurants cities.
The thing I use Eater four I don't necessarily use
(17:29):
either for their reviews. I I use them for their lists,
like if I if I'm going to a different city,
like if I'm going to go to like you know,
Philadelphia or Austin or something like that. Like they'll have lists,
you know, they'll have like their essential restaurants where they're Yeah,
they do have great lists. Their heat map, they're really
good at that. Eater is excellent at that. That's what
(17:50):
That's what I you know, I use their site for
for sure. Eater really has their finger on the poles,
especially with new restaurants. I find a lot of new
restaurants that way. I Mean, look, here's the thing. It's
like I've had hundreds of great reviews and a couple
of not great reviews. But that that's what people want
to talk about. That's the problem with it. That to me,
that's the problem because the people writing the reviews and
(18:10):
that people publishing some of these sites understand that. So
if they write a good review about somebody who they
expected to be good, like, they don't hear from it. Yeah,
it's just it kind of falls into the ether if
they read if they write a bad review about Thomas Keller,
like people are going to talk about it for a minute. Okay.
So basically, if you're you're gonna go out with your
girls and you want to try something new, you go
(18:32):
to wear Eater. I go to Eater, I go to Infatuation.
I mean I find a lot on Twitter, but it's
usually because I'm following like eater on Twitter. See. I
mean I also get a lot of press releases. You do, Yeah,
mom a journalist. Yeah, I know you're in journalist, Sophie,
but like they send you restaurants sending releases because you
to talk about it your community. Yeah, I mean if
it's in my if it's in my coverage area, it's
(18:54):
it's definitely okay, something that is so great. So let's
talk to you about about this issue. Which is a
place sends you a press release. You're like, oh, that
sounds really interesting. So you go, yeah, and it's not good.
That's tough. What do you write about it? I mean,
I mean, do you report on it? No, because it's
not my job to tell you whether something is good
(19:15):
or bad. I'm not a food critic, my job is
to tell you the story. I understand that. But you're
a person, sure, so like do you? I don't fake anything,
so what do you do? I tell the story even
if you don't like it. Yeah. My my job is
not to give you my opinion on whether or not
I think it's good. My job is never to give
you my opinion. Every once in a while, I you know,
I'm I'm on camera and I'm I'm eating something, and
(19:36):
if it's great, like I'll say it. Um. But like
you like those those Italian sandwiches from from Giada, it's
not Giada deal a Rantis by the way, Giata. Ye, yeah,
the Giada boys. They make a good Italian sub So
if you went there you didn't like their subs, you
would still do a story about them. Yeah, of course.
Because I'm not going there just because of the food.
(19:56):
I'm going there because of the story. Human interest story, Yeah,
always interesting. I'm not there to review. Would you be
a food critic? No, you know, I've grown up in
restaurants essentially, and it's just a little too close to
home for me. You know, everyone has their own opinion, obviously,
I'm pretty confident in you know my palate, but I'm
(20:16):
not really interested in and potentially hurting someone's feelings in
in that sense. It's not it's it's too close to
home for me. You know what reviews you always get,
like what people always say about your food, it's so salty, Kenny,
that it's so salty. Yes, oh my gosh, that's well,
that's because we use a lot of salty ingredients. And
also we season the food. Yeah, like we don't. We
(20:37):
don't play games, Like we season with salt and pepper.
Everything gets seasoned like we don't. We don't play games.
And also like my food is a lot of like
naturally salty flavors, things like you know, anchelas and capers olives,
and I use salt. I don't think I've ever left
a review on a restaurant like on like Yelp or
open table, Like, I don't think I've ever left Well,
(20:58):
you've never done it, now you no? Definitely me of
course not. Could you imagine, Like I mean, the only
thing that I whenever I go, if I go, if
I talk about a restaurant in any public form, it's
usually going to be like on my Instagram, and it's
going to be only positive. Like I'm not gonna if
I don't if I go to a place and I'm disappointed,
I'm not talking about but if if I if I
(21:19):
find something that is just like you'll hear me talk
about like the pizza at Rozza or Lucali, like all
day long, it's so good, and that's something that, like,
you know, as a New Yorker, I feel like I
have I have some chops to talk about, right, you know,
Or you know, if I if I find a really
great dish or something that's just so transcendent in a
(21:40):
way that I wasn't expecting, I'm excited about it. I'm
I want to support people. I'm not interested in bashing anyone.
It's just not I'm not interested in at all. I
always look for the good. Always Hungry is greeted by
Bobby Flay and Sophie Flay. Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis.
Always Hungry is produced, edited, and mixed by Jonathan hoss Dressler.
(22:03):
Always Hungry is engineered by Sophie Flay. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
All right, guys, welcome to Always Hungry from My Heart Radio.
My name is Bobby Flay, and I'm here with my
daughter and co host. I am Sophie Flay, and I'm
Always Hungry. Sophie and I gather around my stove to
cook together. Well, you cook, I asked the questions, and
eat the food if there's any food left. We come
to the table together to share a meal, connect as
a family, and tell the stories that matter to us.
All right, So if today we're talking about one of
(00:27):
my most anxious subjects, restaurant reviews, Yeah, exactly, restaurant reviews
in the newspapers, online, in people's heads, face to face,
word of mouth. You name it as a career restaurant tour.
It's the thing I dream about most. Everyone's a critic.
Let's get into it. So today we're gonna make um, Yeah,
(00:52):
we're telling about restaurant reviews. So I'm gonna I'm gonna
talk about a dish that that gott got, you know,
got constantly got well reviewed, you know, basically across the board.
And it's an interesting dish because it's a steamed halibit
dish and steaming steaming things or steaming fish doesn't necessarily
always evoke like lots of deliciousness because it's steamed as
(01:14):
opposed to sutete or roasted or you know. But I
think what I think what it did was this halibit
is so silky that um. By steaming the fish, it
just kept it kept that that integrity of the texture. Um.
And then what I did was I paired it with
a sauce, a broth really that had tomatoes and fennel, onions, um,
(01:40):
some saffron, some garlic, and then we let the fish
sit in the broth. And then on top of it
was a green olive relish that had fresh mint in it. Yeah. Yeah,
I love adding fennel to fish. You do. Not everybody
loves fennel. I love fennel, you do. So I have
some aromatics in this this steaming broth. We have some
(02:03):
onions and garlic, We have some line, we have some
bay leaf. You just wanna you don't want to overpower it.
You just want to uh to steam the fish, and
then you want to cover it so that it steams.
All right. So today we're talking about restaurant reviews. This
is this is a really fun idea to me because
I don't. We don't. We haven't really talked about this
this much in terms of what in terms, I've never
(02:24):
really talked to you about your reviews. I've watched you
in like, you know, when you first opened a restaurant,
and you literally don't leave the restaurant for I don't know,
to three months, like it's like you live there, but
before it gets reviewed. It usually gets reviewed within the
first two to three months. Now got months and months? Oh,
I guess I didn't realize that then maybe I got
the time. I think Pete Wells were trying to figure
(02:44):
out if I was gonna like just abandon the restaurant
or something, you know, which is sort of a common
you know, I get that all the time because I'm
on television a lot that I'm not in my restaurants.
The bottom line is, I'm in my restaurants all the time, constantly,
sane amount of time, you know, maybe more than some
others not. You know, you are literally always in your
restaurants always, and and it's because I love being in them.
(03:05):
It's not because I feel like I have to be there,
which I do have to be there, but I also
like being there. Right it's um to me. It's it's
the most joyous place for me. But it is crazy though.
I mean, I I always like say, I have no
idea where you get all this energy from, because I'll
watch you shoot like three episodes of Beat and then
go straight to the restaurant at like four pm and
(03:26):
you're working all night. And that's a whole other grind
in itself. It's crazy. You're always in your restaurants, always
have been, yeah, I mean, and that's why they have longevity.
I mean, I'll just take you through my the longevity
of my restaurant history. So Masa Grill in New York City,
the original Masa Grill open open for twenty six years,
twenty six years. Sophie older than me. No, I know,
(03:49):
it's crazy. Twenty six years, Bolo fifteen years again went
the full a long time, full boat of its lease.
Then they knocked the building down. I had a restaurant
called Masa City for a very short period of time,
it was about two years. Didn't quite work the way
I wanted it to work. It was sort of a
casual version of Masa Grill. Was that Premasa Girl? No,
(04:10):
it was after Masa Grill. Oh, I don't remember that
it was. It was in the Upper east Side. Was
I alive? Yes, I remember taking you there. I'm just
I'm not joking. I remember taking you there. You were
in a in a halloween green pea outfit, you know,
like a p Yeah, I took you there in a
pea pod outfit. Was it actually Halloween? It was the
(04:34):
Halloween season? Oh my god. No, you had no idea
what that restaurant. And actually that restaurant got two stars
from muth Rachel, which frankly, I was surprised by. She
liked it for what it was. And you know, a
friend of mine bought it from me on the street
corner one night. He's like, I really wanted restaurant for
(04:56):
the Upper east Side. He had he had this, he
had the Southeastern Asian restaurant called Rain, and he wanted
to open one on the Upper east Side. And I
sold to him on the street corn one night. It
was it was not it was Mason City was not
satisfying my It just it almost had almost had nothing
to do with money. We were busy enough, but it
just didn't. It wasn't satisfying me from a culinary standpoint.
(05:18):
So I gave it up. Then Bar American fifteen years,
full Boat of the six great restaurant Bar American Connecticut
ten years, Bobby flay Stake fifteen years, Mason Grill in
the Bahamas eleven years, Mason Grill was Vegas sixteen years.
Jesus Christ, there's a lot of years. And then Gato
(05:40):
seven years was cut short because of the pandemic. But
it is what it is, got seven great years out
of it. One of my one of my one of
my favorite restaurant eras ever, it was the first restaurant
I had to open in in New York City in
ten years, and people like, oh, he's making a comeback, comeback.
I didn't go anywhere like I mean, I mean, I'm
(06:00):
in I'm in my restaurants all over the place. It
was just like I just hadn't open one in New
York City and that in that amount of time. And then, um,
you know, now we have a Moufie in Vegas, which
I love, and then of course you know there's all
the Bobby's Burgers, et cetera. But restaurant reviews are an
incredibly important part of a restaurants success. So let the
(06:41):
fish steam and then while that's happening. We can make
our brothay the broth. I started with some onions and
some garlic, some fennel, some some tomato, some white wine,
some fish stock, and then um, let it cook for
a while, and as saffron as well, a little orange yellow. Yeah, beautiful,
(07:01):
it's very bright. But I'm gonna purate that. Okay in
the food processing. I'm gonna purate it. Yeah, exactly who
it's going everywhere you smell that. You can smell the saffron, Wow,
you really can. Well, it's so good. Yeah. So then
let's give this a taste. How is it? It's okay.
(07:23):
It needs a little salt and pepper, and I'm gonna
put some Collabrian chili in there as well. Okay, well
I'm gonna add one more ingredient to that. Okay, fish
is almost done steaming away so quick. So I have
this ant shall be butter, which always makes everything fish
(07:45):
tasted better. And then we're gonna take the ant shall
be butter. Just finish it. Well. That tastes good, dad,
does it? Yeah? Very light and healthy, but just like
so much of your flavors. Correct me if I'm wrong,
But I kind of love the idea that I don't
(08:07):
know if you still do this, but I feel like,
I remember, are you telling me that in your restaurants,
you know, there's you have like faces and names of critics,
absolutely like in the kitchen. Well, look, let's let's this.
This is a really interesting topic because you and I
come from two different generations, and things have changed a
(08:28):
lot in the media over the last you know, a
couple of decades. Of course, when I first started in
the restaurant business, I was in my twenties. There were
two things that mattered The New York Times New York
magazine in New York City, and the New York Times
was ten times more important than New York Magazine. It's
just that that was the vehicle, and everything else only
(08:51):
mattered a little bit. Like if you added up everything else,
it wouldn't equal either one of those two things. So
Gal Green was the restaurant critic for New York Magazine
at the time, and when when I opened Masa Grille,
she named Mason Grille the best new restaurant of the
year in New York City. That's a big accomplishment, and
she sort of set me off into onto this path.
(09:12):
The new York New York Times came in and gave
us a glowing review, a glowing two star review, and
you know, Mason Grille was off to the races, you know,
at last for twenty six years. I will tell you
that I got reviewed two more times at Mason Grill
over the lifetime of the restaurant. We got a great
two star review from Bill Grimes, and then I got
(09:32):
a one star review from Frank Brunei, which was literally
one of the worst days of my life because it
was the only time I ever got taken down a star.
The bottom line is, you know, he said I took
my eye off the off the restaurant, and maybe he
was right. You know, there was definitely it was definitely
not our heyday moment of the restaurant. But when you
(09:55):
have a restaurant for twenty six years, there are you know,
the salad days, so to speak, and then there are
days where the restaurant is not at its best. It's
it's a living, breathing thing. And basically, he caught me
in a moment where it could have been better. And
I called him up and I thanked him for coming
into the restaurant and reviewing us and he to this
(10:15):
day will mention that I did that like because people
that get you know, unfavorable reviews don't usually call the
critic and thank them. But the bottom line is, I'm
in the business of putting myself on the line in
terms of you know, critics, customers, reviews, etcetera. And it
is what it is. I've been really lucky. I think
(10:36):
it's important for you to explain what the stars mean. Well.
In the New York Times is one, two, three, four stars,
and there's also are also satisfactory and poor. You don't
want poor or satisfactory one star and and frankly like
one star, two star, three star, four stars. They all
have different meanings based on the level of the restaurant.
So if you're a neighborhood restaurant in New York City
(10:58):
and you know you don't it's not it's not formal.
It's a very casual restaurant, not that expensive. It's very
sort of value oriented. It's a mom and pop organization.
And you get a good one star review, that's a
good review, right if you you know, if you are
trying to be a four star restaurant, you know you're
John George von Richt and you're Danielle, your high high end. Okay,
(11:21):
if you get two stars, those guys want to kill
themselves because they're trying to achieve a level that starts
at three stars. Okay. My restaurants, for the most part,
I would say, are in the two star range. Could
get three. Could but it might be a tiny bit
to raucous. I don't mean that like they're out of control,
(11:44):
but just like there's a there's a certain energy that
that might give the critics some trepidation of giving a
third star, even if they really like it. But I'm
happy with very, very very good, solid two star reviews.
That's basically how it made my career. Got it? Like
you you asking me about, like you know, do we
have pictures of the critics, like you know, Pete Wells.
Pete Wells knows that, like you know, the New York
(12:07):
Times critic knows that, like we it's part of our
job to know their alias. Is their phone numbers, their friends,
phone numbers, where they live when they're like, what they're there,
what their disguises are, What are the things they like
to drinks? Do they come in and disguises? Ruth used
to come in and disguises all the time, like real disguises,
(12:28):
wakes in the whole nine. Really, yeah, she's I think
she really loved it. That's really fun. Actually, ruthsh was cool.
But so when you notice that the critics in your restaurant,
are you sending out extra food? Not to them? Oh no, No,
that's the other thing. It's this sort of dance where
like we make believe that we don't know that they're there,
and they know that we know that they're there, but
like nobody. Yeah, so you can't know. It's not cool
(12:52):
to send the critic food because that's like that's too much.
You just have to send them, you know. And also
here's the thing that I started doing, which was years ago.
When the critic came in, it was like high alert.
I would send the kitchen into a fucking hurricane, right
because this is it. You know that your Times critic
is here, like oh my god, and they come like
(13:12):
somewhere between three and five times. And then you know
what I started doing, Like at Gato, I told no one.
I would tell the manager if Pete comes in, I
want you to walk into the kitchen, pull me aside
and tell me in my ear because my staff was
cooking really great food. To add the pressure to it,
they're gonna make mistakes. I don't want them over thinking
(13:33):
of it, thinking it. I just want I didn't and
and and also what happens is you stop the entire restaurant.
No one gets fed but the critic. And that's not
good either, because frankly, they know, they know, they know
exactly what's going on around them. They can tell if,
like if if their presence is like sent the place
into disaster, and that's not good for and they're they're
(13:55):
supposed to be speaking not only for them, they're speaking
for everybody. So if they treated differently, that's something else
that could be really not good. There's been some high
end restaurants that got bad reviews based on the fact
that they got treated They were treating the customer differently
than the critic. And so that's of course you're going
to make sure that the critic food critics food looks right.
(14:17):
But I didn't tell anybody. I just I just let
a body cook. That's really interesting. Yeah, probably better that
right now, totally better. Do you tell them afterwards? Do
they freak out? Yes, but like not right afterwards, like
maybe an hour and a half laid. I'll be like,
by the way, we've had the time today. What wait?
What was the dishes? Doesn't matter chopping up some parsley, Yeah,
(14:58):
I mean I usually put some shives in there. So
basically you're gonna pour the broth over the fish. Really
beautiful and this is really light, very light and flavorful.
Usually I would make some like an olive and minute
relish to put on top, but it's so pretty. This
is this is how dish gets good reviews well, because
(15:20):
it's beautiful to look at, It has a lot of
flavor in the broth. The fish is kind of like
bathing exactly. Then you have a contrast of texture from
from the olives and the and the mint relish, and
then of course the fish has to be cooked right right, satisfying.
It's so good overall if you're doing a good job,
(15:44):
but you're gonna have a successful restaurant because, ultimately, especially
now more than ever, the customer is reading reviews that
aren't just by single person with critics, but they're reading
reviews of groups of people, you know, So basically anyone
can be a critic. Now, of course social media man,
(16:04):
but basically I looked this up of people looking to
go to a restaurant, look up reviews online. That's a lot.
Where's that number from the internet, Dad, I need a source.
You really are a journalist. Well here just the road
a number. Here the top seven places that people get
(16:25):
reviews according to who Oh my god. Okay, you know
what forget to go ahead read the list. Google my business.
I'm serious, because what happens is you So when you
Google a restaurant, the first thing that comes up on
the right side, right side is our Google reviews. Okay,
that's number one. Number two is Facebook. Oh interesting, okay.
(16:48):
Number three is Yelp. Number four is trip Advisor because
people are going to trips, okay. Number five is Zomato.
Number six is open Table because they're making reservations, and
number seven is ZAG. It's still you know, Rock in
the House, you know Zag. It used to be such
an incredibly important print book. We'd all wait for the
(17:09):
print book to come out, like in October or something
and see what our numbers were. And now it's obviously online.
But that's interestingly how people are getting their reviews. Now.
There's a there's an industry website called eater, which they
they're in lots of lots of these sort of restaurants cities.
The thing I use Eater four I don't necessarily use
(17:29):
either for their reviews. I I use them for their lists,
like if I if I'm going to a different city,
like if I'm going to go to like you know,
Philadelphia or Austin or something like that. Like they'll have lists,
you know, they'll have like their essential restaurants where they're Yeah,
they do have great lists. Their heat map, they're really
good at that. Eater is excellent at that. That's what
(17:50):
That's what I you know, I use their site for
for sure. Eater really has their finger on the poles,
especially with new restaurants. I find a lot of new
restaurants that way. I Mean, look, here's the thing. It's
like I've had hundreds of great reviews and a couple
of not great reviews. But that that's what people want
to talk about. That's the problem with it. That to me,
that's the problem because the people writing the reviews and
(18:10):
that people publishing some of these sites understand that. So
if they write a good review about somebody who they
expected to be good, like, they don't hear from it. Yeah,
it's just it kind of falls into the ether if
they read if they write a bad review about Thomas Keller,
like people are going to talk about it for a minute. Okay.
So basically, if you're you're gonna go out with your
girls and you want to try something new, you go
(18:32):
to wear Eater. I go to Eater, I go to Infatuation.
I mean I find a lot on Twitter, but it's
usually because I'm following like eater on Twitter. See. I
mean I also get a lot of press releases. You do, Yeah,
mom a journalist. Yeah, I know you're in journalist, Sophie,
but like they send you restaurants sending releases because you
to talk about it your community. Yeah, I mean if
it's in my if it's in my coverage area, it's
(18:54):
it's definitely okay, something that is so great. So let's
talk to you about about this issue. Which is a
place sends you a press release. You're like, oh, that
sounds really interesting. So you go, yeah, and it's not good.
That's tough. What do you write about it? I mean,
I mean, do you report on it? No, because it's
not my job to tell you whether something is good
(19:15):
or bad. I'm not a food critic, my job is
to tell you the story. I understand that. But you're
a person, sure, so like do you? I don't fake anything,
so what do you do? I tell the story even
if you don't like it. Yeah. My my job is
not to give you my opinion on whether or not
I think it's good. My job is never to give
you my opinion. Every once in a while, I you know,
I'm I'm on camera and I'm I'm eating something, and
(19:36):
if it's great, like I'll say it. Um. But like
you like those those Italian sandwiches from from Giada, it's
not Giada deal a Rantis by the way, Giata. Ye, yeah,
the Giada boys. They make a good Italian sub So
if you went there you didn't like their subs, you
would still do a story about them. Yeah, of course.
Because I'm not going there just because of the food.
(19:56):
I'm going there because of the story. Human interest story, Yeah,
always interesting. I'm not there to review. Would you be
a food critic? No, you know, I've grown up in
restaurants essentially, and it's just a little too close to
home for me. You know, everyone has their own opinion, obviously,
I'm pretty confident in you know my palate, but I'm
(20:16):
not really interested in and potentially hurting someone's feelings in
in that sense. It's not it's it's too close to
home for me. You know what reviews you always get,
like what people always say about your food, it's so salty, Kenny,
that it's so salty. Yes, oh my gosh, that's well,
that's because we use a lot of salty ingredients. And
also we season the food. Yeah, like we don't. We
(20:37):
don't play games, Like we season with salt and pepper.
Everything gets seasoned like we don't. We don't play games.
And also like my food is a lot of like
naturally salty flavors, things like you know, anchelas and capers olives,
and I use salt. I don't think I've ever left
a review on a restaurant like on like Yelp or
open table, Like, I don't think I've ever left Well,
(20:58):
you've never done it, now you no? Definitely me of
course not. Could you imagine, Like I mean, the only
thing that I whenever I go, if I go, if
I talk about a restaurant in any public form, it's
usually going to be like on my Instagram, and it's
going to be only positive. Like I'm not gonna if
I don't if I go to a place and I'm disappointed,
I'm not talking about but if if I if I
(21:19):
find something that is just like you'll hear me talk
about like the pizza at Rozza or Lucali, like all
day long, it's so good, and that's something that, like,
you know, as a New Yorker, I feel like I
have I have some chops to talk about, right, you know,
Or you know, if I if I find a really
great dish or something that's just so transcendent in a
(21:40):
way that I wasn't expecting, I'm excited about it. I'm
I want to support people. I'm not interested in bashing anyone.
It's just not I'm not interested in at all. I
always look for the good. Always Hungry is greeted by
Bobby Flay and Sophie Flay. Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis.
Always Hungry is produced, edited, and mixed by Jonathan hoss Dressler.
(22:03):
Always Hungry is engineered by Sophie Flay. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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