September 9, 2022 • 31 mins
For this very special episode of Amazing Wildlife, join global phenomenon and world-renowned conservationist, Dr. Jane Goodall, as she shares her lifelong passion for wildlife and her commitment to saving our natural world with Paul Baribault, President and Chief Executive Officer of San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. The two will sit down and chat about Jane’s lifelong commitment to conserving our natural world, and as Chair of the Jane Goodall Institute’s USA Board of Directors, Baribault talks with his friend about her love for chimpanzees and what it will take to protect and save our closest relatives—and the planet we all share.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Ebony Money and I'm Rick Schwartz. Welcome to
Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from
around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast
is a production of I Heart Radio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance, in international nonprofit conservation organization behind the
San Diego Zoo and Safari Park. We have a special
(00:27):
conversation planned. This talk is dedicated to one of our
closest relatives, chimpanzees and humans share about of their DNA.
These intriguing great apes have been known to make and
use tools, eat meat, and have culture. These are just
a few of the groundbreaking observations made by Dr Jane Goodall,
(00:49):
the world renowned ethologist and world's expert on chimpanzees as
well as a conservationist and activist. We are honored to
have her on this show. She'll be speaking with San
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance President and Chief executive Officer Paul
bear Bold's about her ongoing commitment to protect both chimpanzees
(01:10):
and the planet. Oh, this is such an exciting topic, Ebany.
Dr Jane Goodall is respected worldwide for her groundbreaking studies
of chimpanzees in the wild, from discovering that chimps use
tools to understanding that they have and use social behaviors
similar to humans. Her work has also spearheaded conservation efforts
(01:31):
for chimpanzees throughout Africa. Today, we don't give a second
thought to the fact that chimpanzees create and use tools
from things in their environment. We know that they work
together to hunt. They aren't just vegetarians. But here's the thing,
we know all of this because of Dr Jane Goodall's work.
At the time of her observations and studies, none of this,
and I mean none of it was known to science. Rick.
(01:54):
It's really remarkable the more you learn and think about
Jane Goodall's story traveling from our home in England to
what's now Tanzania to live in the forest and study chimpanzees.
Her approach of actually sharing a habitat with the chimpanzees
was considered innovative at that time. So how did scientists
study primates before Jane began her work? Ebony. It may
(02:17):
be hard for people to understand this today because so
much has changed since Dr Jane Goodall first started her studies,
and to be honest, I think we can attribute a
lot of those changes to her and how she went
about conducting her studies. Before Dr Jane Goodall went out
into the wilds of Africa to spend time studying chimpanzees,
the general attitude towards animals was that they simply did
(02:39):
not have behaviors similar to ours. In fact, the approach
to studying animal behavior was based on the idea that
animals were just responding to stimulus in their environment. The
idea that anything other than humans could show individuality, play
for fun, hunt and make tools, well, that was not
even thought to be possible. Rick, That's really amazing when
(03:00):
you think about it. I'd imagine it probably shifted ideas
about the separation between humans and wildlife. And what's so
fascinating to me, and I'm sure too many of us
who learn about Goodall's contributions to science, is that she
began her research without any academic credentials. So what's your
reaction to that part of her story? Well, I had
(03:21):
got to be honest, epany, I think it might be
one of the most powerful aspects of her story. You see,
I hear from a lot of people, you know, in
my position going out in public talking about what we do.
A lot of people talk about how they want to
do something for conservation or for wildlife, but they don't
have a degree in science or the means to get
that educational degree. And yet here we have Dr Jane Goodall,
(03:41):
who was well read on wildlife and followed her passion
to head out and make a difference at a time
when women were not widely accepted to academia, much less
heading out into the wilds of Africa for months on end.
Her story is truly inspirational to anyone who feels there
are barriers in the way of them following their fashion.
I mean, just go for it. I like that, Just
(04:03):
go for it. And Rick, I was surprised to learn
that chimpanzees have been known to use plants for medicinal purposes.
I don't know why I was surprised because chimpanzees have
proven to be so intelligent, but using plants for medicine
is next level. Is there anything that surprised you or
stands out most from the discoveries of chimpanzees behavior. Oh, my,
(04:27):
ann Ebony, Yes, next level indeed, and they really are
amazing animals. And to answer your question when it comes
to animal behavior. Nowadays, nothing surprises me anymore. I mean,
with everything we know from Jane Goodall's work and the
research that has been built upon the foundation of her work,
it's also really impressive. Her field work, which started in
(04:55):
the nineteen sixties spanned thirty years, transformed how we view
chimpanze ease and shed light on their need for protection.
More than sixty years after she immersed herself in the
world of chimps, she continues to raise awareness about the
threats they face and advocates for people to take action.
Paul Barbauld has worked closely with Dr Goodall for over
(05:15):
ten years and was recently named chairman of the Jane
Goodall Institute's Board of Directors. During this time, they have
become very close colleagues and friends. The two came together
to talk about some of the highlights of her career,
her passion for chimpanzees, and her role as an activist.
(05:37):
We are chatting here today with a global leader for
a planet, the remarkable Dr Jane Goodall. She's the founder
of the janegold Institute, a global community conservation organization that
advances her vision and work by protecting chimpanzees, inspiring people
to conserve the natural world we all share. She is
a U N Messenger for Peace. She was also recently
(05:59):
named one of Time magazines hundred most Influential People in
the World, and also recently received the Templeton Prize, honoring
individuals whose achievements harnessed the power of the sciences to
help humankind understand their place and purpose in the universe.
She also went from traveling over three hundred days a
year before the pandemic to finding new ways to inspire
(06:21):
audiences around the world, including starting her very own podcast,
The Jane Goodall Hope Cast. Jane has been a great
inspiration to me, my family, and as someone I've had
the unbelievable honor of being able to call a close
friend for over a decade. Jane, thank you so much
for joining us today. Well, thank you for inviting me. Paul. Well,
(06:44):
I'm gonna start Jane our conversation today with your own
origin story because I think it is so powerful. You
met Dr Louis Leaky and made your first visit to
Africa when you were only twenty three years old. Coming
to Africa from England was not simply done in that
air as global travel occurs today. But there is so
(07:05):
much more to this story. Can you share this part
of your journey with us? And where it began? Okay,
well it began. I think it must have begun in
my mother's womb, because I popped out loving animals right
from the very beginning. I was taking earth worms to
bed when I was one year old, according to Mom,
(07:25):
watching them as I wondered, how are they moving without legs.
I was lucky to have such a supportive mother, and
she helped me find books about animals. There was no
TV when I was growing up. That's how long I've
lived on this planet. And when I was ten years old,
I had saved up just enough money to buy a
(07:46):
little book in a second hand book shop that I loved,
and it was called Tarzan of the Apes. It took
it up my favorite tree in the garden, and of
course fell passionately in love with this glorious lord of
the jungle, and my very jealous when he married the
wrong Jane. This began my dream. I mean, I knew
there wasn't a Tarzan, but I will grow up, go
(08:09):
to Africa, live with wild animals and write books about them. Well,
everybody laughed at me. How will you do that? You
don't have money. We had very little money. World War
two was raging. Africa is of unknown place, mostly unknown,
full of dangerous wild beasts, and I was just a girl.
(08:29):
Girls didn't do that sort of thing, not my mother, Jane.
If you really want to do something like this, you're
going to have to work really hard, take advantage of
every opportunity, and if you don't give up, hopefully find
a way. So that was what kept me on track
and couldn't afford university. We didn't have enough money, just
(08:52):
enough money for a little secretarial course in London. Got
a job. I had to have a job, and the
opportunity came with a letter from a school friend inviting
me to Kenya. So, as you said, I was twenty three.
Pretty amazing at that time that my mother just let
me go off a loan on a boat because there
weren't planes going back and forth in those days. And
(09:15):
it was a journey that took nearly a month, a
magical journey on the ocean. And so I arrived in Ambassa,
went by train to Nairobi, stayed with my friend, and
then somebody said, Jane if you're interested in animals, you
should meet Louis Leakey. So I went to meet him
at the Natural History Museum. He was curator and the
(09:38):
rest is history. Jane. It's so incredible to me because
people worry about their kids going down the street a
few blocks and here you were going from England to
Africa in a time where that just wasn't happening, and
it took a hugely long time to get there. I
think it's just extraordinary share with us when you ultimately
(09:58):
got to Africa and you stepped off the boat and
you started your journey in Gambay and you started to
explore and obviously meet the chimpanzees over a period of time.
I think you have an amazing period of time there
where you were really just trying to understand how to
connect with them, and you made several discoveries along the way,
but you also met people along the way. Can you
(10:20):
talk about the early formative time there? Okay? Well, when
I finally got to Gombi, and it took Louis Leakey
one year to get the money because who was going
to give money to this young, untrained girl. But he
got money for six months. The British authorities at that
time it was Tanganika British Protectorate, and they said no,
(10:41):
we won't take responsibility for a young girl going in
the forest. In the end they said, oh, but you
can't come alone. So again that amazing mother came with
me for the first four of those six months, not
to do the research up in the mountains, but just
to be there in the camp. And for four whole
(11:02):
months the chimps ran away from me. I mean, they
take one look at this peculiar white ape and disappear
into the vegetation. And Mom did an amazing job for me.
She boosted my morale. But Jane, you found that peak
and through your binoculars you're learning more than you think
about how they nest the group's as they go around,
(11:22):
in the kind of foods they eat, and so on.
She also began a little clinic for the local people.
And although she wasn't a doctor or a nurse, her
brother was a doctor. She had very simple things like
you know, as spirins and iodine and saline drips and
things like that. She made some amazing cures. I found
(11:43):
later she was known as a white witch doctor, and
so she started for me a wonderful relationship with the
local people, which has stood me in good stead ever since.
But it wasn't until one of the chimpanzees, whom I
named the it gray Beard because he had white hair
on his chin. He began to lose his fear of me.
(12:06):
And it was thanks to him I think we get
closer that I began to really make discoveries that actually
shook the scientific world. I was the only person who
had even tried to study gymps except one crazy man
in eighteen hundred and something, and he built a cage
by a victory. He wanted to see jimps, and for
(12:28):
some reason he felt it would be best if he
was naked in the cage and he smeared himself with
baboon doun. Well, he didn't see any gymps. I'm sure
that was a good reference point for future voyagers to
not try that themselves. Yeah. Absolutely jokes. When we think
about your journey to Gande, it transformed you from a
(12:51):
cover girl for National Geographic in a lot of ways
to a scientist. The discovery you made around chimpanzees intelligence,
there's social dynamics and their tool use completely change our
understanding of the intelligence and emotions of not only great apes,
but all wildlife. This discovery thrust you into the spotlight
(13:13):
in you went viral thirty years before that was a thing,
and you felt compelled to follow that calling and really
step out onto the world stage to share what you
are witnessing in Gamba with the world. Can you share
with us a little bit around the choice you made
to step out in that moment and the reasons why,
because I think they're incredibly powerful. Well, one of the reasons,
(13:38):
you know it, was what I was learning about the chimpanzees.
Leaky chose me because I hadn't been to university. He
wanted to mind uncluttered by the very reductionist thinking of
scientists pathologists at that time. But after a point after
the two losing, he said, Jane, you have to get
a degree. I want your scientific peers to take you seriously,
(14:00):
no longer as a geographic cover girl. And he got
me a place in Cambridge to do a PhD. I've
never been to college. I was nervous. The professor's told
me I'd done everything wrong. I shouldn't have given their
chimps names. That wasn't scientific. They should have had numbers.
I couldn't talk about their personality, their mind, or their emotions.
(14:20):
Those were unique to us. I mustn't have empathy with them,
because to be a good scientist you must be coldly objective. Well,
fortunately I had a wonderful teacher when I was a child,
and he taught me that in this respect, the professors
were wrong, totally wrong, And that teacher was my dog, Rusty.
(14:41):
You cannot share your life in a meaningful way with
any animal and not know that we're not the only
beings of personalities, mind and emotion. So anyway, I stuck
to my beliefs and went back to Gombi, as you say,
built up a research station. Best days of my I've
out in the rainforest learning the inter connection of every
(15:04):
plant and animal that makes up this wonderful web of life.
And then in six I went to a big conference
in Chicago which I helped to put together, bringing scientists
from the six other chimp study sites. By them, there
were six others, and it was mainly about chimp behavior,
(15:24):
to discuss how it changes from one environment to another,
if it changes, and that sort of thing. But at
the same time we had a session on conservation and
that was the shock seeing that right across Africa the
chimpanzee numbers were declining and forests were going and it
(15:44):
was so different from when I arrived. And so I
went to that conference as a scientist, I left as
an activist. I just knew I had to do something.
It wasn't people say, how did you come to that decision?
I didn't. It was just like you know St. Paul
on the road to Damascus. He started off persecuting the Christians,
(16:06):
he arrived to be a missionary for them. It was
something that happened inside. And although it was sad not
to be at Gombi, I never looked back. This is
what I'm now supposed to be doing. So that began
this initially far from virtual if it was by planes
and buses and cars and boats and goodness knows what
(16:31):
around the world talking about how amazing chimpanzees are, how
like us they are, but how that teaches you to think, well,
but we're different, how are we different? And also I
wanted to talk to people about the state of the environment,
the fact the forests were going, And as I was
traveling around, I was learning more and more about what
(16:53):
was happening in the rest of the world, things that
we know only too well that have led the climate
change and loss of biodiversity. So that's how it all began.
You know. I think it's so powerful to hear you
share that story, Jane, because you've inspired me to continue
and pursue a path of passion and pursue a path
(17:13):
of impact. I have to ask you what inspires you
today and what gives you hope today? Well, I think
what inspires me is the incredible people and amazing projects
that I used to meet when I traveled around the world.
I meet even more now because via Zoom you can
(17:34):
meet so many more people in so many more countries.
And we filled the news is the media is filled
with gloom and doom, and yes, we do have to
know what's going on. We need to know that we're
destroying this planet. We need to know it's the only
home we have. And how bizarre that the most intellectual creature,
(17:54):
because that's what makes us more different from the other animals,
the explosive development of our brain. How can the most
intellectual creature be destroying its only home and we're doing that.
We're polluting it, We're using chemical pesticides and herbicides that
are actually destroying the very soil on which we all depend.
(18:16):
We're polluting the ocean, we're cutting down the forest. You
know it all people beginning to know. But although we
need to know this and be inspired to do something
about it, we also need to know the amazing and
wonderful and extraordinary projects that are going on around the world.
And I think Paul your position heading up the San
(18:39):
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, you see many of these amazing projects,
many of these amazing people, and if others read about
those things, that tends to make them think, well, they
did it, he did it, she did it. I can
do it too. I'm going to have a jolly good
try anyway. And that's the way it works, and that's
(18:59):
the only way that we will save life on the
planet as we know it. I couldn't agree more. Jane.
There are so many inspiring stories out there that it's
a responsibility to share them with the world so more
people can read about the more people can learn about
them and be inspired. So I want to ask you
about your vision for the future. What does a healthy
planet look like to you? What what do we need
(19:21):
to do to reach that? Well? Paul, we need to
do an awful lot. We need a completely new mindset.
We need a new definition of what is success. And
at the moment it tends to be about making money
and getting a high profile and whatever field you choose
to be in. But we need a definition which says
(19:43):
success is when you lead a decent life. You've got enough,
you haven't got way too much. You can look after
your family. If you have a family, you can do
the things you want to do. Instead of all this
materialistic view of we need to get money and more
money and more money. We need money, we need power,
and that's led to this crazy notion that short term
(20:08):
benefits are more important than protecting the planet for future generations.
So we've got to change so many things. We've got
to try and slow down climate change. We've got to
slow down biodiversity loss. We've got to alleviate poverty, because
poor people will destroy the environment simply to live. They
(20:28):
will cut down the trees to make more land to
grow their food, or to make money from charcoal or timber.
And we need to at least think about the number
of people and their livestock growing around the world. We
need to think about the way we live and the
ecological footprint we're leaving on the planet. We need to
(20:48):
understand that the health of the planet, and the animals
in the planet, and the humans on the planet are
all into related and if one part of that equation
is sick, that's going to harm all the rest. So
that's why I spend so much of my time working
on j d i's program for young people, Roots and Shoots.
(21:12):
And Roots and Shoots is about young people getting together
making their own decisions as to what they want to
do to make this a better world. But they've got
to choose three kinds of projects. Want to help people,
want to help animals, want to help the environment. And
what began with twelve high school students in Tanzania is
now in sixty five countries and growing. It's got members
(21:36):
in kindergarten, university and everything in between. And these are
the young people who are changing the world, along with
other youth groups that have a similar mission. So getting
particularly young children out into nature so that they can
experience it and take time off from this virtual world
(21:57):
of being always on your cell phones and so on,
and get the feel of nature so that you come
to be fascinated then you come to want to understand it,
and then you come to love it, and at that
point you want to protect it, and then we will
come to the sort of healthy world that I envision
as a good future Faus and the rest of life
(22:19):
on this planet. Jane, that is just a simply remarkable
and powerful answer for you to share with our audience. So,
as you know, we are a leading zoo pursuing conservation efforts,
so I wanted to ask for your perspective on the
role you see leading zoos playing in wildlife conservation efforts. Paul,
I think that there's no question but that the good
(22:42):
zoos are truly making a difference in the conservation world.
I think one of the major roles that a good
zoo can play is to train veterinarians to understand the
physiology of zoue animals, and then they are in a
(23:03):
position to train veterinarians who are working in the wild,
or bring veterinarians over to the zoo and train them there,
and of course raising money to help conservation groups. There's
another important role that zoos can play, and then very
important education, raising awareness, helping the general public to understand
(23:26):
the value of certain animals, the role that they play
in the natural world, understanding a bit about their behavior
and their out in the wild. And so many people
have told me, Oh, the reason I'm in conservation, the
reason I'm studying wild animals is because at the first
time I went to a zoo and looked into an
animal's eyes. It's so powerful because I think the world
(23:50):
has all been on a journey. I think zeus have
continued to pursue an evolutionary path where we all learn
more and we all grow with more knowledge. You mentioned
the importance of training veterinary and care. We actually on
one of our projects in Africa support Rotetti, an elephant
sanctuary in northern Kenya, where we are training up skill
(24:12):
building the local community. And that's so important because our
role should be in transferring that knowledge and then moving
to other locations to share that knowledge with other communities.
I also want to share that when we were going
through COVID, we had a guerrilla troop that got COVID
in January, and you'll recall I called you and you
(24:33):
said to me, thank goodness they are in your care,
because I know they'll get the best care they possibly could,
and hopefully we can learn how COVID affects them, and
that was an incredibly powerful statement to me because it
reminded me of our responsibility to not only care for
these amazing individuals, but it's also a responsibility to share
(24:55):
what we learn. We were able to provide a great
value to our partners around the world because we were
caring for guerrillas here with around the clock care modoring
their recovery, and thankfully every single one of them recovered,
and we couldn't be happier with that. So truly it
shows the power of what a good zoo can do
(25:16):
for the world. And so thank you Jane for your
perspectives on that. Next question Jane I have for you
is what's next as you look to the future. You've
made it clear to all who you have spoken to
that your focus is empowering young people. What else would
you like to add when you think about the future
of the planet as you look to inspiring that next generation. Well,
(25:38):
I think to go back to something I said before,
which is about the alleviation of poverty. When I started
at Gombi in nineteen sixty but Little National Park was
part of the great Equatorial forest belt that stretched to
the West Coast, and when I flew over it in
(25:58):
the late ease, I was shocked. I knew there was deforestation,
but I wasn't prepared to see a small island of
forests surrounded by bear hills. More people living now than
the land could support, too poor to buy food from elsewhere.
They were struggling to survive. And that's when it hit me.
(26:19):
If we don't help them find ways of making a
living without destroying the environment, we can't save chips, forests
or anything else. And that becomes very clear when you
look at poverty around the world. If you're in an
urban area, in an inner city, perhaps if you're living
in poverty, you can't afford to ask as we can
(26:42):
when you go to buy your groceries. Did this product
harm the environment? Was it cruel to animals? Like? Was
it factory farmed? Is it cheap? Because of unfair wages
paid to people in different parts of the world. If
you're living in poverty, you have to buy the cheapest,
usually junk food, which harms you as well as the planet,
(27:04):
And so alleviating poverty is tremendously important, and learning how
to reduce our own environmental footprint, and these are things
which the young people just soak up. It's just nature
to them to think in this way. Once you help
them to understand, they run with it. They think of
(27:26):
amazing things to alleviate poverty, and they help to raise
money to alleviate poverty. And so what's next to me
scaling up this program we have around Gombi because it's
worked so very well, take care or to carry helping
people find alternate lives, providing micro credit opportunities that they
(27:49):
can start their own environmentally sustainable business, as scholarships to
keep girls in school, to give them a chance of
secondary education because us all around the world, as women's
education improves, family size tends to drop. So this Takuri
program has now spread into six other African countries and
(28:13):
it's all ready to scale up because it's worked and
people have risen out of dire poverty. We've still got
a long way to go, but it's community lead. They
have the tools in their hands. They can use smartphones
to monitor the health of the forest and the wildlife there.
And there are partners. Why because they understand now that
(28:36):
protecting the environment isn't just the wildlife, it's for their
own future. They need the forest to mitigate climate change,
to affect temperatures, to affect rainfall patterns, and so on.
So my vision for the future is growing the programs
that work and spreading the word, and I shall do
(28:59):
that for the rest of my life as long as
I can. It's beautiful, Jane, and so important to really
reference that. It comes back to the communities. I'm going
to leave you with the opportunity to share your closing
thoughts today. What final ideas or thoughts would you want
to share with our listeners. For the young people out there,
(29:21):
I just say to all of you listening what my
mother said to me, follow your dream. If you have
something you want to do, don't let anybody dissuade you.
If you really want to do it, you'll have to
work really hard, take advantage of opportunity, and if you
don't get up, you may succeed. But if you change
(29:41):
your mind, if you suddenly realize this isn't for me,
it doesn't matter. You've got your life ahead of you.
Change direction, go the way that your heart is telling you.
To follow your heart, and also to remember, every single
day each one of us lives on this place, it
we make some impact and we get to choose what
(30:04):
sort of impact we make. Well. Thank you very much
Jane for joining us today. You've personally transformed my life,
and I hope that your words today have the power
to transform others who are listening. As I mentioned earlier,
you have your podcast called the Jane Goodall Hope Cast.
I encourage all of you to tune in and listen
(30:25):
to that podcast, along with our own Amazing Wildlife podcast.
Thank you again, Jane. Okay, thanks Pool, Thanks for listening.
I hope you've enjoyed learning more about chimpanzees and the
role that Dr Jane Goodall has played in sharing her
insights about them around the world. Be sure to subscribe
and tune in. Next time, would we share the story
(30:46):
of a nocturnal lizard like reptile with a third eye.
I'm Abney Money and I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening.
If you would like to find out more about San
Diego Zoo Wild Like Alliance, please visit sdz w a
dot org. Amazing Wildlife as a production of I Heart Radio.
(31:07):
Our producer is Nikia Swinton and our executive producer is
Marci de Peina. Our audio engineer and editor is Sierra Spring.
For more shows from my heart Radio, check out the
I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Ebony Money and I'm Rick Schwartz. Welcome to
Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from
around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast
is a production of I Heart Radio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance, in international nonprofit conservation organization behind the
San Diego Zoo and Safari Park. We have a special
(00:27):
conversation planned. This talk is dedicated to one of our
closest relatives, chimpanzees and humans share about of their DNA.
These intriguing great apes have been known to make and
use tools, eat meat, and have culture. These are just
a few of the groundbreaking observations made by Dr Jane Goodall,
(00:49):
the world renowned ethologist and world's expert on chimpanzees as
well as a conservationist and activist. We are honored to
have her on this show. She'll be speaking with San
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance President and Chief executive Officer Paul
bear Bold's about her ongoing commitment to protect both chimpanzees
(01:10):
and the planet. Oh, this is such an exciting topic, Ebany.
Dr Jane Goodall is respected worldwide for her groundbreaking studies
of chimpanzees in the wild, from discovering that chimps use
tools to understanding that they have and use social behaviors
similar to humans. Her work has also spearheaded conservation efforts
(01:31):
for chimpanzees throughout Africa. Today, we don't give a second
thought to the fact that chimpanzees create and use tools
from things in their environment. We know that they work
together to hunt. They aren't just vegetarians. But here's the thing,
we know all of this because of Dr Jane Goodall's work.
At the time of her observations and studies, none of this,
and I mean none of it was known to science. Rick.
(01:54):
It's really remarkable the more you learn and think about
Jane Goodall's story traveling from our home in England to
what's now Tanzania to live in the forest and study chimpanzees.
Her approach of actually sharing a habitat with the chimpanzees
was considered innovative at that time. So how did scientists
study primates before Jane began her work? Ebony. It may
(02:17):
be hard for people to understand this today because so
much has changed since Dr Jane Goodall first started her studies,
and to be honest, I think we can attribute a
lot of those changes to her and how she went
about conducting her studies. Before Dr Jane Goodall went out
into the wilds of Africa to spend time studying chimpanzees,
the general attitude towards animals was that they simply did
(02:39):
not have behaviors similar to ours. In fact, the approach
to studying animal behavior was based on the idea that
animals were just responding to stimulus in their environment. The
idea that anything other than humans could show individuality, play
for fun, hunt and make tools, well, that was not
even thought to be possible. Rick, That's really amazing when
(03:00):
you think about it. I'd imagine it probably shifted ideas
about the separation between humans and wildlife. And what's so
fascinating to me, and I'm sure too many of us
who learn about Goodall's contributions to science, is that she
began her research without any academic credentials. So what's your
reaction to that part of her story? Well, I had
(03:21):
got to be honest, epany, I think it might be
one of the most powerful aspects of her story. You see,
I hear from a lot of people, you know, in
my position going out in public talking about what we do.
A lot of people talk about how they want to
do something for conservation or for wildlife, but they don't
have a degree in science or the means to get
that educational degree. And yet here we have Dr Jane Goodall,
(03:41):
who was well read on wildlife and followed her passion
to head out and make a difference at a time
when women were not widely accepted to academia, much less
heading out into the wilds of Africa for months on end.
Her story is truly inspirational to anyone who feels there
are barriers in the way of them following their fashion.
I mean, just go for it. I like that, Just
(04:03):
go for it. And Rick, I was surprised to learn
that chimpanzees have been known to use plants for medicinal purposes.
I don't know why I was surprised because chimpanzees have
proven to be so intelligent, but using plants for medicine
is next level. Is there anything that surprised you or
stands out most from the discoveries of chimpanzees behavior. Oh, my,
(04:27):
ann Ebony, Yes, next level indeed, and they really are
amazing animals. And to answer your question when it comes
to animal behavior. Nowadays, nothing surprises me anymore. I mean,
with everything we know from Jane Goodall's work and the
research that has been built upon the foundation of her work,
it's also really impressive. Her field work, which started in
(04:55):
the nineteen sixties spanned thirty years, transformed how we view
chimpanze ease and shed light on their need for protection.
More than sixty years after she immersed herself in the
world of chimps, she continues to raise awareness about the
threats they face and advocates for people to take action.
Paul Barbauld has worked closely with Dr Goodall for over
(05:15):
ten years and was recently named chairman of the Jane
Goodall Institute's Board of Directors. During this time, they have
become very close colleagues and friends. The two came together
to talk about some of the highlights of her career,
her passion for chimpanzees, and her role as an activist.
(05:37):
We are chatting here today with a global leader for
a planet, the remarkable Dr Jane Goodall. She's the founder
of the janegold Institute, a global community conservation organization that
advances her vision and work by protecting chimpanzees, inspiring people
to conserve the natural world we all share. She is
a U N Messenger for Peace. She was also recently
(05:59):
named one of Time magazines hundred most Influential People in
the World, and also recently received the Templeton Prize, honoring
individuals whose achievements harnessed the power of the sciences to
help humankind understand their place and purpose in the universe.
She also went from traveling over three hundred days a
year before the pandemic to finding new ways to inspire
(06:21):
audiences around the world, including starting her very own podcast,
The Jane Goodall Hope Cast. Jane has been a great
inspiration to me, my family, and as someone I've had
the unbelievable honor of being able to call a close
friend for over a decade. Jane, thank you so much
for joining us today. Well, thank you for inviting me. Paul. Well,
(06:44):
I'm gonna start Jane our conversation today with your own
origin story because I think it is so powerful. You
met Dr Louis Leaky and made your first visit to
Africa when you were only twenty three years old. Coming
to Africa from England was not simply done in that
air as global travel occurs today. But there is so
(07:05):
much more to this story. Can you share this part
of your journey with us? And where it began? Okay,
well it began. I think it must have begun in
my mother's womb, because I popped out loving animals right
from the very beginning. I was taking earth worms to
bed when I was one year old, according to Mom,
(07:25):
watching them as I wondered, how are they moving without legs.
I was lucky to have such a supportive mother, and
she helped me find books about animals. There was no
TV when I was growing up. That's how long I've
lived on this planet. And when I was ten years old,
I had saved up just enough money to buy a
(07:46):
little book in a second hand book shop that I loved,
and it was called Tarzan of the Apes. It took
it up my favorite tree in the garden, and of
course fell passionately in love with this glorious lord of
the jungle, and my very jealous when he married the
wrong Jane. This began my dream. I mean, I knew
there wasn't a Tarzan, but I will grow up, go
(08:09):
to Africa, live with wild animals and write books about them. Well,
everybody laughed at me. How will you do that? You
don't have money. We had very little money. World War
two was raging. Africa is of unknown place, mostly unknown,
full of dangerous wild beasts, and I was just a girl.
(08:29):
Girls didn't do that sort of thing, not my mother, Jane.
If you really want to do something like this, you're
going to have to work really hard, take advantage of
every opportunity, and if you don't give up, hopefully find
a way. So that was what kept me on track
and couldn't afford university. We didn't have enough money, just
(08:52):
enough money for a little secretarial course in London. Got
a job. I had to have a job, and the
opportunity came with a letter from a school friend inviting
me to Kenya. So, as you said, I was twenty three.
Pretty amazing at that time that my mother just let
me go off a loan on a boat because there
weren't planes going back and forth in those days. And
(09:15):
it was a journey that took nearly a month, a
magical journey on the ocean. And so I arrived in Ambassa,
went by train to Nairobi, stayed with my friend, and
then somebody said, Jane if you're interested in animals, you
should meet Louis Leakey. So I went to meet him
at the Natural History Museum. He was curator and the
(09:38):
rest is history. Jane. It's so incredible to me because
people worry about their kids going down the street a
few blocks and here you were going from England to
Africa in a time where that just wasn't happening, and
it took a hugely long time to get there. I
think it's just extraordinary share with us when you ultimately
(09:58):
got to Africa and you stepped off the boat and
you started your journey in Gambay and you started to
explore and obviously meet the chimpanzees over a period of time.
I think you have an amazing period of time there
where you were really just trying to understand how to
connect with them, and you made several discoveries along the way,
but you also met people along the way. Can you
(10:20):
talk about the early formative time there? Okay? Well, when
I finally got to Gombi, and it took Louis Leakey
one year to get the money because who was going
to give money to this young, untrained girl. But he
got money for six months. The British authorities at that
time it was Tanganika British Protectorate, and they said no,
(10:41):
we won't take responsibility for a young girl going in
the forest. In the end they said, oh, but you
can't come alone. So again that amazing mother came with
me for the first four of those six months, not
to do the research up in the mountains, but just
to be there in the camp. And for four whole
(11:02):
months the chimps ran away from me. I mean, they
take one look at this peculiar white ape and disappear
into the vegetation. And Mom did an amazing job for me.
She boosted my morale. But Jane, you found that peak
and through your binoculars you're learning more than you think
about how they nest the group's as they go around,
(11:22):
in the kind of foods they eat, and so on.
She also began a little clinic for the local people.
And although she wasn't a doctor or a nurse, her
brother was a doctor. She had very simple things like
you know, as spirins and iodine and saline drips and
things like that. She made some amazing cures. I found
(11:43):
later she was known as a white witch doctor, and
so she started for me a wonderful relationship with the
local people, which has stood me in good stead ever since.
But it wasn't until one of the chimpanzees, whom I
named the it gray Beard because he had white hair
on his chin. He began to lose his fear of me.
(12:06):
And it was thanks to him I think we get
closer that I began to really make discoveries that actually
shook the scientific world. I was the only person who
had even tried to study gymps except one crazy man
in eighteen hundred and something, and he built a cage
by a victory. He wanted to see jimps, and for
(12:28):
some reason he felt it would be best if he
was naked in the cage and he smeared himself with
baboon doun. Well, he didn't see any gymps. I'm sure
that was a good reference point for future voyagers to
not try that themselves. Yeah. Absolutely jokes. When we think
about your journey to Gande, it transformed you from a
(12:51):
cover girl for National Geographic in a lot of ways
to a scientist. The discovery you made around chimpanzees intelligence,
there's social dynamics and their tool use completely change our
understanding of the intelligence and emotions of not only great apes,
but all wildlife. This discovery thrust you into the spotlight
(13:13):
in you went viral thirty years before that was a thing,
and you felt compelled to follow that calling and really
step out onto the world stage to share what you
are witnessing in Gamba with the world. Can you share
with us a little bit around the choice you made
to step out in that moment and the reasons why,
because I think they're incredibly powerful. Well, one of the reasons,
(13:38):
you know it, was what I was learning about the chimpanzees.
Leaky chose me because I hadn't been to university. He
wanted to mind uncluttered by the very reductionist thinking of
scientists pathologists at that time. But after a point after
the two losing, he said, Jane, you have to get
a degree. I want your scientific peers to take you seriously,
(14:00):
no longer as a geographic cover girl. And he got
me a place in Cambridge to do a PhD. I've
never been to college. I was nervous. The professor's told
me I'd done everything wrong. I shouldn't have given their
chimps names. That wasn't scientific. They should have had numbers.
I couldn't talk about their personality, their mind, or their emotions.
(14:20):
Those were unique to us. I mustn't have empathy with them,
because to be a good scientist you must be coldly objective. Well,
fortunately I had a wonderful teacher when I was a child,
and he taught me that in this respect, the professors
were wrong, totally wrong, And that teacher was my dog, Rusty.
(14:41):
You cannot share your life in a meaningful way with
any animal and not know that we're not the only
beings of personalities, mind and emotion. So anyway, I stuck
to my beliefs and went back to Gombi, as you say,
built up a research station. Best days of my I've
out in the rainforest learning the inter connection of every
(15:04):
plant and animal that makes up this wonderful web of life.
And then in six I went to a big conference
in Chicago which I helped to put together, bringing scientists
from the six other chimp study sites. By them, there
were six others, and it was mainly about chimp behavior,
(15:24):
to discuss how it changes from one environment to another,
if it changes, and that sort of thing. But at
the same time we had a session on conservation and
that was the shock seeing that right across Africa the
chimpanzee numbers were declining and forests were going and it
(15:44):
was so different from when I arrived. And so I
went to that conference as a scientist, I left as
an activist. I just knew I had to do something.
It wasn't people say, how did you come to that decision?
I didn't. It was just like you know St. Paul
on the road to Damascus. He started off persecuting the Christians,
(16:06):
he arrived to be a missionary for them. It was
something that happened inside. And although it was sad not
to be at Gombi, I never looked back. This is
what I'm now supposed to be doing. So that began
this initially far from virtual if it was by planes
and buses and cars and boats and goodness knows what
(16:31):
around the world talking about how amazing chimpanzees are, how
like us they are, but how that teaches you to think, well,
but we're different, how are we different? And also I
wanted to talk to people about the state of the environment,
the fact the forests were going, And as I was
traveling around, I was learning more and more about what
(16:53):
was happening in the rest of the world, things that
we know only too well that have led the climate
change and loss of biodiversity. So that's how it all began.
You know. I think it's so powerful to hear you
share that story, Jane, because you've inspired me to continue
and pursue a path of passion and pursue a path
(17:13):
of impact. I have to ask you what inspires you
today and what gives you hope today? Well, I think
what inspires me is the incredible people and amazing projects
that I used to meet when I traveled around the world.
I meet even more now because via Zoom you can
(17:34):
meet so many more people in so many more countries.
And we filled the news is the media is filled
with gloom and doom, and yes, we do have to
know what's going on. We need to know that we're
destroying this planet. We need to know it's the only
home we have. And how bizarre that the most intellectual creature,
(17:54):
because that's what makes us more different from the other animals,
the explosive development of our brain. How can the most
intellectual creature be destroying its only home and we're doing that.
We're polluting it, We're using chemical pesticides and herbicides that
are actually destroying the very soil on which we all depend.
(18:16):
We're polluting the ocean, we're cutting down the forest. You
know it all people beginning to know. But although we
need to know this and be inspired to do something
about it, we also need to know the amazing and
wonderful and extraordinary projects that are going on around the world.
And I think Paul your position heading up the San
(18:39):
Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, you see many of these amazing projects,
many of these amazing people, and if others read about
those things, that tends to make them think, well, they
did it, he did it, she did it. I can
do it too. I'm going to have a jolly good
try anyway. And that's the way it works, and that's
(18:59):
the only way that we will save life on the
planet as we know it. I couldn't agree more. Jane.
There are so many inspiring stories out there that it's
a responsibility to share them with the world so more
people can read about the more people can learn about
them and be inspired. So I want to ask you
about your vision for the future. What does a healthy
planet look like to you? What what do we need
(19:21):
to do to reach that? Well? Paul, we need to
do an awful lot. We need a completely new mindset.
We need a new definition of what is success. And
at the moment it tends to be about making money
and getting a high profile and whatever field you choose
to be in. But we need a definition which says
(19:43):
success is when you lead a decent life. You've got enough,
you haven't got way too much. You can look after
your family. If you have a family, you can do
the things you want to do. Instead of all this
materialistic view of we need to get money and more
money and more money. We need money, we need power,
and that's led to this crazy notion that short term
(20:08):
benefits are more important than protecting the planet for future generations.
So we've got to change so many things. We've got
to try and slow down climate change. We've got to
slow down biodiversity loss. We've got to alleviate poverty, because
poor people will destroy the environment simply to live. They
(20:28):
will cut down the trees to make more land to
grow their food, or to make money from charcoal or timber.
And we need to at least think about the number
of people and their livestock growing around the world. We
need to think about the way we live and the
ecological footprint we're leaving on the planet. We need to
(20:48):
understand that the health of the planet, and the animals
in the planet, and the humans on the planet are
all into related and if one part of that equation
is sick, that's going to harm all the rest. So
that's why I spend so much of my time working
on j d i's program for young people, Roots and Shoots.
(21:12):
And Roots and Shoots is about young people getting together
making their own decisions as to what they want to
do to make this a better world. But they've got
to choose three kinds of projects. Want to help people,
want to help animals, want to help the environment. And
what began with twelve high school students in Tanzania is
now in sixty five countries and growing. It's got members
(21:36):
in kindergarten, university and everything in between. And these are
the young people who are changing the world, along with
other youth groups that have a similar mission. So getting
particularly young children out into nature so that they can
experience it and take time off from this virtual world
(21:57):
of being always on your cell phones and so on,
and get the feel of nature so that you come
to be fascinated then you come to want to understand it,
and then you come to love it, and at that
point you want to protect it, and then we will
come to the sort of healthy world that I envision
as a good future Faus and the rest of life
(22:19):
on this planet. Jane, that is just a simply remarkable
and powerful answer for you to share with our audience. So,
as you know, we are a leading zoo pursuing conservation efforts,
so I wanted to ask for your perspective on the
role you see leading zoos playing in wildlife conservation efforts. Paul,
I think that there's no question but that the good
(22:42):
zoos are truly making a difference in the conservation world.
I think one of the major roles that a good
zoo can play is to train veterinarians to understand the
physiology of zoue animals, and then they are in a
(23:03):
position to train veterinarians who are working in the wild,
or bring veterinarians over to the zoo and train them there,
and of course raising money to help conservation groups. There's
another important role that zoos can play, and then very
important education, raising awareness, helping the general public to understand
(23:26):
the value of certain animals, the role that they play
in the natural world, understanding a bit about their behavior
and their out in the wild. And so many people
have told me, Oh, the reason I'm in conservation, the
reason I'm studying wild animals is because at the first
time I went to a zoo and looked into an
animal's eyes. It's so powerful because I think the world
(23:50):
has all been on a journey. I think zeus have
continued to pursue an evolutionary path where we all learn
more and we all grow with more knowledge. You mentioned
the importance of training veterinary and care. We actually on
one of our projects in Africa support Rotetti, an elephant
sanctuary in northern Kenya, where we are training up skill
(24:12):
building the local community. And that's so important because our
role should be in transferring that knowledge and then moving
to other locations to share that knowledge with other communities.
I also want to share that when we were going
through COVID, we had a guerrilla troop that got COVID
in January, and you'll recall I called you and you
(24:33):
said to me, thank goodness they are in your care,
because I know they'll get the best care they possibly could,
and hopefully we can learn how COVID affects them, and
that was an incredibly powerful statement to me because it
reminded me of our responsibility to not only care for
these amazing individuals, but it's also a responsibility to share
(24:55):
what we learn. We were able to provide a great
value to our partners around the world because we were
caring for guerrillas here with around the clock care modoring
their recovery, and thankfully every single one of them recovered,
and we couldn't be happier with that. So truly it
shows the power of what a good zoo can do
(25:16):
for the world. And so thank you Jane for your
perspectives on that. Next question Jane I have for you
is what's next as you look to the future. You've
made it clear to all who you have spoken to
that your focus is empowering young people. What else would
you like to add when you think about the future
of the planet as you look to inspiring that next generation. Well,
(25:38):
I think to go back to something I said before,
which is about the alleviation of poverty. When I started
at Gombi in nineteen sixty but Little National Park was
part of the great Equatorial forest belt that stretched to
the West Coast, and when I flew over it in
(25:58):
the late ease, I was shocked. I knew there was deforestation,
but I wasn't prepared to see a small island of
forests surrounded by bear hills. More people living now than
the land could support, too poor to buy food from elsewhere.
They were struggling to survive. And that's when it hit me.
(26:19):
If we don't help them find ways of making a
living without destroying the environment, we can't save chips, forests
or anything else. And that becomes very clear when you
look at poverty around the world. If you're in an
urban area, in an inner city, perhaps if you're living
in poverty, you can't afford to ask as we can
(26:42):
when you go to buy your groceries. Did this product
harm the environment? Was it cruel to animals? Like? Was
it factory farmed? Is it cheap? Because of unfair wages
paid to people in different parts of the world. If
you're living in poverty, you have to buy the cheapest,
usually junk food, which harms you as well as the planet,
(27:04):
And so alleviating poverty is tremendously important, and learning how
to reduce our own environmental footprint, and these are things
which the young people just soak up. It's just nature
to them to think in this way. Once you help
them to understand, they run with it. They think of
(27:26):
amazing things to alleviate poverty, and they help to raise
money to alleviate poverty. And so what's next to me
scaling up this program we have around Gombi because it's
worked so very well, take care or to carry helping
people find alternate lives, providing micro credit opportunities that they
(27:49):
can start their own environmentally sustainable business, as scholarships to
keep girls in school, to give them a chance of
secondary education because us all around the world, as women's
education improves, family size tends to drop. So this Takuri
program has now spread into six other African countries and
(28:13):
it's all ready to scale up because it's worked and
people have risen out of dire poverty. We've still got
a long way to go, but it's community lead. They
have the tools in their hands. They can use smartphones
to monitor the health of the forest and the wildlife there.
And there are partners. Why because they understand now that
(28:36):
protecting the environment isn't just the wildlife, it's for their
own future. They need the forest to mitigate climate change,
to affect temperatures, to affect rainfall patterns, and so on.
So my vision for the future is growing the programs
that work and spreading the word, and I shall do
(28:59):
that for the rest of my life as long as
I can. It's beautiful, Jane, and so important to really
reference that. It comes back to the communities. I'm going
to leave you with the opportunity to share your closing
thoughts today. What final ideas or thoughts would you want
to share with our listeners. For the young people out there,
(29:21):
I just say to all of you listening what my
mother said to me, follow your dream. If you have
something you want to do, don't let anybody dissuade you.
If you really want to do it, you'll have to
work really hard, take advantage of opportunity, and if you
don't get up, you may succeed. But if you change
(29:41):
your mind, if you suddenly realize this isn't for me,
it doesn't matter. You've got your life ahead of you.
Change direction, go the way that your heart is telling you.
To follow your heart, and also to remember, every single
day each one of us lives on this place, it
we make some impact and we get to choose what
(30:04):
sort of impact we make. Well. Thank you very much
Jane for joining us today. You've personally transformed my life,
and I hope that your words today have the power
to transform others who are listening. As I mentioned earlier,
you have your podcast called the Jane Goodall Hope Cast.
I encourage all of you to tune in and listen
(30:25):
to that podcast, along with our own Amazing Wildlife podcast.
Thank you again, Jane. Okay, thanks Pool, Thanks for listening.
I hope you've enjoyed learning more about chimpanzees and the
role that Dr Jane Goodall has played in sharing her
insights about them around the world. Be sure to subscribe
and tune in. Next time, would we share the story
(30:46):
of a nocturnal lizard like reptile with a third eye.
I'm Abney Money and I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening.
If you would like to find out more about San
Diego Zoo Wild Like Alliance, please visit sdz w a
dot org. Amazing Wildlife as a production of I Heart Radio.
(31:07):
Our producer is Nikia Swinton and our executive producer is
Marci de Peina. Our audio engineer and editor is Sierra Spring.
For more shows from my heart Radio, check out the
I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Rick Schwartz
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