July 18, 2025 • 40 mins
This week, hosts Rick and Marco speak with Dr. Kirstie Ruppert and Dr. Shifra Goldenberg about human and elephant conflict and coexistence. African elephants are invaluable to ecosystems and hold great cultural importance to Kenyans, but sometimes communities come into conflict with these giant mammals. Our guests talk about adaptability training and ways to balance the behavior of elephants and the needs of humans.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz. What is the world?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I'm Marco Went and this This is Amazing Wildlife, a
podcast where we cover unique stories of wildlife from around
the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast is
in production with iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Organization which oversees this beautiful.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Place, the San Diego Zoo where we are now and
the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
You know, every time you do that monel like my friend.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Which it's an intro, but you know, I tend to
like get in sync with our surrounding area. Guess where
we're here at the zoo again. There's a robin flying
behind you. There is a red shild or hawk cruising around.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We're lucky that we get to go on locations of
this podcast. I know a lot of podcasts are in
studio and sound control and all that, but I think
we're lucky we get to places.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
And I was remembering, like we were talking about and
Panda last and we were here in the area at
the zoo right, like we learned a lot of really
cool things and it made me think of like even
just like bears in general and where bears live, and
even like some people live really close to maybe like
a grizzly or a polar air.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
It's actually a big part of the conservation world that
we have. Yeah, there's humans. They're a big part of
why we need that conservation yea.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
I mean even being a native San Diego you know,
I know they're mountain lying in the area, but it's
something we have to think about. And you know, while
we were talking about it, we brought this wonderful journal, right.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So for those who.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Video yet, we brought our scenes a wildlife journal, a
wildfe Lions Journal. Excuse me, Yeah, that came out in
July and August partly only dropped mine.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Sorry mind so pristine and beautiful.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
But even in the cover, man, I means like there's
a beautiful species right here, like a leopard, right and
then in the middle here there's a really cool title,
which I want to get props at Peggy, who actually
I learned later came out with the title and we
can talk about a little more. But it's a common ground, right,
and a lot of really interesting facts and stories about
community and wildlife.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, there's two articles that I want to make sure
you know. And this is the benefit of being a
member of the San Diego Zoo and the Safari Park
is not only do you get the free entrance with
every visit and guests get all sorts of extra things
that way too, but you get these great stories that
come in and talk a lot about the inside of
what we do as an organization. And there's one article
in here about the jaguar and human conflicts that occur
in South and Central America and the work being done
(02:20):
to help mitigate that, to help change that from being
a conflict to be living in coexistence. And then the
other one you mentioned, common Ground, of course, which is
about all the elephants there in Kenya and work being
done to find common ground for humans and elephants to
live together there.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I know, I mean, I think we should talk about
it more.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I think we should.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
But instead of you and I just talking about the articles,
why don't we ask the experts that we have with Oh, I.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Know, we got the experts. Hey, good morning, experts.
Speaker 6 (02:42):
Good morning extnie y, good morning.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Let them know who you are and what your title
is here with this organization.
Speaker 7 (02:48):
I'm doctor Christy Rupert.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
I am an Associate Director of Community Engagement on our
Conservation Science where on Life Health team, I get to
work on the human dimensions of conservation, so understanding how
people interact with wildlife, how they affect by wildlife conservation,
and how our conservation hubs can support human wildlife coexistence
around the globe.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
This is a small job, that's awesome.
Speaker 8 (03:09):
And I'm doctor Schiffer Goldenberg and I'm a scientist also
within our Conservation Science and Wildlife Health department, and I
work mostly in ecological fields and mostly on megafauna, so
large animals that he plants.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Oh wow, that would be.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Here.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Okay, fair enough.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I mean there was a lot to talk about. Can
you guys highlight a little like what's succor this article
for you? What impressed you so much about it?
Speaker 6 (03:32):
Yeah? Sure, so I can start.
Speaker 8 (03:34):
I think part of a collaboration with social science is
really understanding how important those long term relationships are and
the process of conversation about what the problem is and
what the context is for that conflict and coexistence. And
this work in particular grew out of human leopard coexistence
work that Kirsty and her colleagues have been leading for
(03:54):
many years, and it was that collaboration that really allowed
us to expand into this space of human elephant code systems.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
And part of the reason the conversation really emerged to
the top is reflective of broader trends and patterns in Kenya,
where a lot of our work is centered. The challenges
to elephant populations historically have revolved around ivory poaching, so
in global demand for ivory products, and over the last
(04:21):
ten or so years, Kenya and many other countries have
really stemmed ivory poaching as the main pressure on elephant populations.
That is a major success for conservation and thinking about
overall populations. Though the rates that elephants are illegally killed
has actually shifted more so over to conflicts with people
(04:41):
and so in Kenya, trying to better understand human elephant
conflict as a challenge to people and elephants has helped
kind of emerge this as a focus for us in
our work.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So I want to ask real quick so we can
kind of set the common ground for our audience, what
are the actual conflicts someone listening to this, who might
live in, whether it's rural Middle America or a big
city like San Diego or Los Angeles or somewhere like that,
may not really have a clear picture as to what
is human elephant conflict, what conflict could possibly exist, because
(05:13):
I don't know if that's a clearer image as to
how people might have to coexist with them in Kenya.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, yeah, so what are some of the problems.
Speaker 8 (05:20):
It's a really great question. And so if people have
heard about human elephant conflict, they've probably heard about crop reading,
which is elephants going into agricultural fields and just eating
their fill and trampling crops in the process. That's not
as much of an issue in the area where we
work in northern Kenya because it tends to be a
very dry area where it's not supportive of very large
(05:40):
scale agriculture. So we do see some crop reading, and
we do see some you know, destruction of kitchen gardens,
but we also see a lot of conflict emerging in
other cases, some cases where trees are being ripped down
by elephants when they switch to brows in the dry season,
going after water resources that are shared, and then you know,
things sort of change in space and time where people
(06:02):
are walking to community resources like a school or a
clinic and they're bumping into elephants and it escalates from there.
And so those are some of the issues that we
see and that we hear about from this community.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I mean, it seems like it's so vary too.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I mean, I'm a TikTok scarlier you guys, And sometimes
I get on some videos where I see a video
of maybe a rhino that went into a suburban area
and for good reason, the mother is very worried about
her child. And I imagine it's extremely specific and nuanced.
Even just Africa alone, I would imagine different communities where
the north or south and we have to listen, right,
we have to work with those communities. Can you talk
(06:34):
a little bit more about that, like how do we
as the Alliance help out those communities in those kind
of scenarios.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
I think this relates to something Triffer is just touching on,
which is that the conflicts are varied. Yeah, conflicts are
not singular and they're not static. And so when we
approached engaging with these communities in Northern Kenya, a lot
of it was about understanding the diversity of interactions and challenges,
as well as priorities for coexistence where people see elephants
(07:01):
and where the interactions are not negative so that can
be maintained and supported. And really it was about prioritization too,
so we tried to be open and honest and that
conflict is never going to be eliminated, is never going
to be zero. These conflicts are going to fluctuate as
conditions change over time, and so part of the process
(07:22):
was developing one that was a trusted and transparent process
to rate and prioritize what types of conflicts communities wanted
to address first. And we did this by pulling information
from different channels, like said for scientists, we want information
to guide some of these decisions. Data data that's generated
by these community members, and I think that's really important
(07:44):
because the decision making around what's selected to pursue, having
that come from voices within the community at different levels,
so not just people informal power, but pulling those different
perspectives to understand as a community what to approach first
was really important to us. So we started with mapping
exercises to understand again spatially, where people are really dependent
(08:08):
on natural resources like water sources, or grazing blocks for
their livestock. We did a number of focus group discussions
and that really illuminated some of the seasonal aspects of
human elephant interactions that were really pertinent to our decision
making process. And then also a representative survey, and that
was to get at some of the voices within the
(08:28):
community that maybe aren't always at the community meetings, So
how do you get a representative sample from these areas?
That helped us rate and prioritize if we can't address everything,
what's most important to address first. And this helped us
identify human safety, particularly for children walking to school, as
something community members certainly wanted to address first.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
I mean specifically on the really hit home for me
was those people who can't go to those certain meetings
as an example, get that data, ranchers. I'm thinking out
in the back of the country and there are opinions matter.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Greatly as well these scenario.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
So that's really great that you guys are trying to
invest in all manners of community in different walks of life.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So that's really cool.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
It was important to us as well to gather that
information before any of these strategies started, so we can
monitor that over time, learn what's working what's not, so
that our conservation strategies could be adjusted.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, you had mentioned that it'll never go to zero,
that there's always going to be fluctuations of different things
going on in the environment. Populations of course as well,
can change things. There's so many variables. But of course
the goal is to mitigate it as much as possible,
and it being of course the conflict between the elephants
and the people.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
When it comes to doing this, and we've talked.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
About this for in fact, they just came up in
pandas that conservation isn't just to go in and solve
the riddle and you're done.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
It is a long game. It's a long process.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
When you look at the riddle of elephant human conflict,
knowing it's going to be a long game, what are
some of the more important things you look at going
into that. We've talked about really addressing things within the community,
listening to them, leaning on their knowledge and expertise of
the environment and the weather patterns and the elephants and
all that.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
But for this long game of mitigating.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
This, what's probably some of the more important things you
guys have come across so far.
Speaker 8 (10:11):
That's a really great question. I think you touched on it.
With a complexity. There is so much complexity involved with
human elephant conflict for a number of reasons. Elephants, as
we know, are extremely smart animals. They are problem solvers
and they figure out a bluff. And so what we
know with mitigation methods is that they will find the
weak points or they will understand when it's actually not
(10:32):
that risky to do what they're trying to tell you.
So and of course they're driven to these great resources.
Elephants they have these spatial maps in their head. They
know where they're going, they know when those resources are ripe,
whether it's accia pods on trees or you know, water
sources that are ephemeral, and so that's a piece of
the complexity. Another piece of the complexity is that the
seasonal dynamics of the place change all the time, and
(10:54):
so the levels of conflict and the distribution of conflict changes.
And then there are other degrees of come complexity, including
whether a community is willing to buy into a particular intervention,
whether there are barriers for entry with that intervention, financial sustainability,
of the method that kind of thing, and so Kirsty
touched on this a bit where she spoke about level
setting at the beginning and understanding what we're going to
(11:17):
be able to do and what we're not going to
be able to do, and so prioritizing and understanding that
there's always going to be some degree of conflict, but
where can we prioritize And then to the piece about adaptability.
I think it's really important to understand that because you
need a suite of tools and you need the adaptability
piece within a community. We have really focused effort on
(11:38):
training for community members who are dealing with conflict so
that people actually are able.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
To go and you know, not reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
There are resources available, there are organizations who are leading trainings,
and so the last couple of years or so, we've
been facilitating a lot of those exchanges so that there
are people embedded within the community who can adapt as
the conflicts change well.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
And that gives them a sense of ownership too. It's
not just you walking in the same Okay, this is
what you need to do. I'm going to go back
home now. I'll be back in a few months to
check on you.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But when you do the training and there's other organizations
that are involved. The partnerships that we have with other
organizations are so important. But then giving ownership to of
the individuals who live there, who are dealing with the
conflict on a daily basis to then empower them to
teach others as well. Really is that sense of ownership
where you can go back and check up on them,
but you're not needed there every single day.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I would imagine a little more inclined to you know,
I definitely know that guy from the other side of
the valley, but these I don't know about the es
day from the alliance because that could be something that
you have to contend with. I would imagine sometimes in
certain communities, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah, this brings up a point that we always like
to highlight, which is the incredible team on the ground
that we work with.
Speaker 7 (12:43):
Yeah, so I wish he.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Was sitting next to me, our Human Round Life Code
Existence coordinator and Kenny his name is Ambrose, led to Luai.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Shout out to Ambrose.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Ambrose, and he is helping to manage this group of
community conservation assistants that are going down to learn from
save yellowpant since Southern Kenya about the human elephant coexistence
toolbox and the point about ownership, I think that goes
part and parcel with leadership within these communities and different
roles and opportunities. Something we've learned from exploring this elephant
(13:12):
coexistence work is that there are different types of knowledge
and experience that can have a role in.
Speaker 7 (13:18):
Any collective strategy.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
So someone perhaps is formally trained in the toolbox and
they can lead trainings about say, reading elephant behavior, and
then in addition, they can invite or have an elder
from the community to share about their wisdom that they've
developed through the course of their life living with elephants.
A key part of our process has been sharing results
from the different streams of information that we've been gathering
(13:43):
so that any decision making is collective. And I always
remember sitting in Lasso Lodge next to Ambrose and next
to our other colleague, LExEN, and one of the elders said,
I definitely want there to be education days where you're
sharing about this toolbox. I want to be there and
share what I know too, and that wisdom piece I
(14:03):
think is really important for this elephant work. We did
ask those questions and some of the surveys about what
do you already do? And that is really important to
understand also as we're evaluating any strategies and interventions, because
it's not a clean slate, this is not a static
laboratory setting, so understanding what people are already doing and
(14:24):
how well they think those strategies work is an important
component of this as well.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So I want to ask.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Both of you mentioned a couple of times the toolbox,
and I know in context what you mean, but for
our audience who may be guessing or trying to understand
what that means, what is the toolbox?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Right?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Not a literal one exactly.
Speaker 6 (14:44):
So it's a book.
Speaker 8 (14:45):
It's essentially a manual that our colleagues that Save the
Elephants put together, which is a collection of all the
different mitigation strategies that people have used.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
And the different ways that they work.
Speaker 8 (14:55):
And as well, it's really important it's sort of the
trade off of labor and costs that's involved, and so
obviously not every method is going to work in every community,
and so it allows people to really evaluate what might
work in their communities, what they're already doing, and so
they have trainings along with that manual, and they have
it published in many languages at this point, and they're always
(15:16):
updating it so visual.
Speaker 7 (15:18):
It's illustrations are gorgeous, and it is available online.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
So anyone listening to this podcast our members can search
the Human Elephant Coexistence Toolbox and find the website that
Save the Elephants manages and updates regularly with different languages,
and as the evidence base around coexistence evolves and develops.
I think that's an important aspect too. Is part of
the toolbox development was a call for information about how
(15:42):
well these strategies work, so that could be refined over
time as well.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
I'm curiously when you talked about methods that were successful
and we're not successful for listeners who have no idea
what's going on out there with elephants in different communities,
could you give me like a couple examples, maybe one
a little more rule and maybe one a little more urban,
if you can think of a certain different situations you
know or not, just whatever pops up in your head.
You know, some of the nuances of elephant and human
interactions and conflicts.
Speaker 7 (16:06):
That have fences high. What do you want?
Speaker 5 (16:09):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Yeah, and actually the one that's a good one because
actually there's a really cool picture and I mean I
can describe a little bit, but it's a picture.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Actually, you guys describe this picture? What am I looking
at right here?
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Yeah, so this is a photo that's in the common
Ground article within the Sez tw a journal I got
to take this photo actually, but yeah, during.
Speaker 7 (16:28):
A visit, yeah, thank you. During a visit from or
for Chewy Mamas.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
They were being hosted by one of the women's groups
that say the Elephants work at called Loam Beni. So
they were at the women's center that's next to Save
the Elephants camp in Savo or in the Voi Savo
area of Kenya, and one of the Save the Elephants
staff members is describing a beehive fence to these Chewy Mamas.
Be High fences are an incredible innovation that work in
(16:54):
that the the beehives are set up around a fixed boundaries,
such as around a farm, and there's wire between each
of those bee hives, and so the beehives will shake
if something touches them like an elephant or in the wind,
and be highs and the sound would invoke a few
response from elephants. And so that would keep elephants further
away from the farm Shiffra, Is that right?
Speaker 8 (17:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah, And I think this is an incredible innovation. There
are some really important considerations though. One is that there's
heavy initial cost investment and so it's not a viable
option for some household owners that are more resource constrained.
So there's a heavy initial cost investment. And then a
really important aspect is that bees require water sources nearby
(17:37):
and so yeah, so you need bees within those boxes
for it to be an effective fence tool. And so
in drought times, which is a natural but unfortunately exacerbated
aspect of conditions in Kenya giving climate related drought impacts,
if the bees aren't there, then the fence isn't going
to work, right, Yeah. So I think that it's incredible
(17:59):
to look at where these beehive fences work because it's
also producing a product that someone can sell for an
additional income stream.
Speaker 7 (18:06):
But I think the really important.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Place for us to highlight here is that the behigh
fences are going to be fixed spatially.
Speaker 7 (18:12):
It's going to be around something like a crop.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
And where we work in northern Kenya, the conflicts are
not fixed spatially. They are around resource access and use,
looking for grasslands, looking for water, walking to school, walking
to a clinic, and so something like a beehiveh fence
isn't going to be a match for some of the
pastoralist communities that we work in, right, and just real quick,
pastoral community means what pastoralism is referring to societies that
(18:37):
keep and herd livestock. So it's around livestock production. It's
not only an important part of economic security. It's tied
to food security, it's tied to cultural significance. And so
in northern Kenya where we work in, like Hippia and
Sambru Counties in particular, the pastoralist communities are really important
partners for conservation. And so all of our conservation strategies.
Speaker 7 (18:57):
Are going to involve livestocks that happen.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, and I have a little more that too, So
people here in America that might be listening. It's not
like a farm where they bring hay to the livestock.
They are hurting their livestock every morning out of the
little bomas or areas they create for safety.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Overnight, they're walking through the wilds.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Basically the finals grasslanes you had mentioned that's where those
conflicts can happen, and they bring them back in at
night time there's no delivery of hay or grains, so
they're really very much a part of the habitat that
they're living in with those elephants exactly.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
And that's part of the decision making around these community
conservancies where we work. So community conservancies are such a
critical land use type, not only for land rights for
pastoralist communities, but because wildlife cannot survive in government protected
areas alone.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
There's just not enough space.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
And so the community conservancies are neighboring some of these
formally protected areas or private conservancies and managing landscape level
wildlife populations. And so the community conservancies, that's part of
their governance is deciding where livestock can graze during different
times of the year. What a few minutes ago referred
to a core conservation area or a grazing block. Those
(20:05):
are areas where the community would decide, Okay, we can
graze livestock here for these particular months until certain conditions change,
like the next set of rains come, etc. The other
aspect I want to mention is that pastoralism is changing too.
So in the last few decades, more past oralist communities
in the North have been keeping small stock like goats
(20:25):
and sheep, and the grazing patterns for goats and sheep
is different than cattle, So some of those considerations around
where some of these livestock are going is important as well.
You'd ask us about different strategies and trade offs. I
talked about the high fences, Shifferd. Did you want to
talk about other types of fences too. I think this
is another part of the conversation when you think about
large scale land use planning.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Speaker 8 (20:47):
So you know, electric fences are another popular intervention for conflict.
They don't come without costs. I mean there's very heavy
investment to begin with. And then also, you know, elephants
can figure out how to bring through a fence either
they find a weak point, they figure out their tusks
don't conduct electricity and they use them.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
No but serious talk about the videos to look at
watching an elephant figure out they could use their tusks
to get is oh yourritible?
Speaker 8 (21:17):
Yeah, and then you get these notorious fence breakers that
people know about, like these repeat offenders exactly, and because
they're social learners. You know, they're teaching those types of behaviors,
and so that becomes an issue. But it also, i
think Christy was alluding to it touches on something else
that we talk about a lot within conservation sounds and
wildlife health, which is landscape permeability. And so senses aren't
(21:40):
always great because you want to encourage movement, right, and
it really can restrict movement. And in this landscape in particular,
movement is critical Cattle they are tracking those fresh grasses,
and so are elephants and other wildlife, and they're changing
their land use patterns as there's more ephemeral water on
the landscape, and so that movement really allows the habitat
(22:01):
to sort of recover in some areas when you know
there's not as much pressure on it because the wildlife
have moved elsewhere, and so that's an important one. You
asked about other interventions and when they might work and
when they don't, and so part of the period when
we were looking and talking to people and looking and
seeing what people are already doing, were some really incredible
interventions that people had done just out of materials that
(22:22):
were around essentially trash, so like plastic bottles putting them
on wire fences because there's like a whistling sound that
comes through and.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Then elephants and it sounds weird over.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Exactly can go so far, I imagine.
Speaker 8 (22:37):
Well, that's the point is that elephants figured out they
might be freaked out initially, and then they realize, oh,
that's at that tree looks really good and.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
Say for it that that maybe the sound is repulsive
until the acacia pods inside looked just good enough to
try it exactly.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
On the couch, you know, like, do I get up
and get those chips that I know I want to
get that I'm gonna so I really really need it,
you know. But that's really fascinating and so challenging with
such an intelligent animal as well, especially one the history
of communities in those areas in Africa. They're ingrained in
the nuances of wildlife. Zebra flow in one area and
so or they're cattle and whatnot. But then you have
(23:16):
a big elephant rollman in and you have to navigate
those things. How does one navigate an area where there
is no fence involved?
Speaker 8 (23:21):
You know?
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Do we understand the movements of behavior the elephant hurts
in that area and we try to navigate around those
behaviors or what are some of the strategies in that regard.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, the two things that come to mind have to
do with elephant wear behavior, So.
Speaker 8 (23:34):
Yeah, why don't you touch on that, and I can
touch about tracking elephants.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Sure, So the foot based encounters that are tied to
human safety are part of one of our current strategies
that's highlighted in the toolbox, and that is understanding elephant behavior,
being able to read it as you are on the landscape.
And so one way to think about it is almost
these zones and thresholds, So if you come across an elephant,
(24:02):
making a decision about what you can do given how
aggravated they are or how close you are. So that's
one piece is reading elephant behavior, reading their cues, their
body language. And the big part of that though, is
trying to avoid it beforehand. And so one aspect that
we're working to coordinate with our community partners is a
(24:24):
pilot that's going on right now during the school term,
which is gathering the students in the morning and having
them walked as a group by someone that's trained in
elephant or where behavior that's gone to the toolbox training,
and that has kind of cleared away based on some
of our other representatives that have called in to say, actually,
this path is safe. We're just there and there aren't
(24:45):
elephants there this morning. So you're trying to avoid it.
You're trying to strengthen numbers with the kids, and you're
trying to put into perspective what to do given the
situation with that particular elephant. Are there multiple elephants? There
is there a baby? There is it a single male?
Speaker 7 (25:00):
Exactly? Exactly?
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Wow?
Speaker 8 (25:02):
Yeah, So elephant aware of behavior and it's again you'll
find this in the toolbox that we spoke about earlier.
It's learning to read elephant behavior and so what are
the signs that they're aggravated, What are the signs that
you're too close?
Speaker 6 (25:13):
What might you do if they start to escalate? Right?
What's the safe way to get away?
Speaker 8 (25:18):
And so that's an important one, is just making sure
that people are sort of on the same page in
reading elephant behavior. If you see a bowl elephant, should
you look for other elephants. There's often an idea that
elephant bowls are alone, but that's not always true, right,
And so little aspects of that and understanding the ecology
and their behavior a little bit better, and that's been
a focus of the training.
Speaker 7 (25:39):
You want to give an example of sound.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I feel like this is an interesting specifics of wind
sound and maybe something like an auditory noise could help
or could hurt given how close you are to the elephant.
I'm thinking about the vo voozellas in the toolbox.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
Oh you talk about it.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Okay, before we get to that. Yeah, I want to
point I love that story. By the way.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
It makes me think the kids can actually learn how
to read elephant behavior when y're watching the trained individual
for true, and I bet a lot of those crosswalkers
in the state, so listen to this, like man, I
could be read that.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
It's a really cool concept.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
So anyway, I love that idea, like just teaching the kids,
you know, from square one, seeing the kids.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
From square one, and then embedding some of that evaluation throughout.
So I think that the data that's present and Kenya
oftentimes is around incidences when something happens. Is there a
crop rating incident? Is there something a really unfortunate safety
incident where someone gets hurt or worse, But we don't
have data on when something works to keep elephants away
(26:38):
from somewhere. And that's what this pilot is helping us
to do too, in trying to get that reflection on
how well something's working. So having concentrated effort for a
short period of time and then coming back to reflect
and learn with that community decide if that's what we'll
pursue going forward is an important part of this process
as well. It's not a problem solution and then we
(26:58):
go and then they go and it works. It's going
to be a process and I think that is something
that we've committed to and has built the trust needed
to enable any of this work. So that I think
is a key aspect of the adaptability piece that Schiffer
was mentioning.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
That's right.
Speaker 8 (27:14):
Yeah, And Marco, you asked also about you know, on
the elephant side, like how can we monitor the elephants
and there are others on the landscape who are tracking
elephants that are prone to come into conflict. We're not
doing that work, but it can really inform how they
move around these resources and really importantly and touches on
something that we haven't discussed yet today, which is the
drivers of conflict. And so We've talked a lot about
(27:36):
mitigation methods, but land use is a big, big driver
of conflict, and so how a particular space is used,
whether it's a human area or a wildlife area. Are
there areas that have been corridors for elephants forever and
they're not going to stop even if there's development in there,
And so some of those tracking studies can really help
identify those corridors and help in those bigger conversations around
(27:59):
land use, planning, habitat fragmentation, which increases interactions between humans
and elephants.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
While you're speaking, actually makes me think maybe some guests
aren't aware of like how elephants are so nuanced and
their traditions and their culture of what they do. I mean,
it makes me think of certain elephant species crossing vast deserts.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
But the matriarch Abuelita, how the she.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Knows, you know, in a few miles are going to
hit that water source right there. So maybe people aren't
aware of that that these antle fins are really committed
in their traditions.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
They're like, to your point, they're going to go through
this town because this is what.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
We've been doing for generations, generations, So we have to
think about.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Those practices absolutely.
Speaker 8 (28:33):
And if you want to see a really cool map
and you know, sort of story about Abulita is like
you can look at this paper published by Polanski at
All twenty fifteen and it showed these elephants in the
Namibian desert and you see their tracks. They're wandering, they're wandering,
they're wandering. It gets to a certain point when their
calves are going to need water and they be lined
for the closest water source, even if.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
That's kilometers away.
Speaker 8 (28:54):
It's remarkable how they do that, so they know very
well where that resource is.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah, and to your point you'd said, these elephant corridors,
these corridors, they're not super highways in the fact that
there's a lot of traffic, but it is this path
that they have known for generations and it's been passed
down for generations. So if maybe in the season that
they're not using that corridor, something is built there or
humans try to move into that space, that's an immediate
conflict that's going to occur because the elephant's like, no,
(29:19):
this is our road, this is where we've always gone.
So understanding the behavior of elephants, understanding the need of
the humans. Now, one thing we didn't touch on because
I think for us and probably for our audience, it's
kind of an understood why is this even important? Why
even address this? Why worry about the elephants? Why do
we care to try and make sure everyone can get along?
Why not just go, hey, humans need this and is
here we are great?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That's a heavy.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Fair and I do think I do believe our audience
listens to us, they're fans of this, understand the parts
of these conversations of conservation. But also it's a fair
question as because let's say somebody who's listening saying, hey,
I just listened to this great thing, this is what
they're doing for it, and.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Someone's just looking. Why does that matter? Yeah, let's give
them that information. Why does that matter?
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Let's let our audience have the opportunity to spread the
words sort of like you know, you were saying, how
we need to teach everyone these aspects of mitigating the
conflict by I understanding elephants. Let's teach our audience why
is this important? Why does it matter?
Speaker 8 (30:14):
You know? I think elephants are remarkable animals for many, many, many, many,
many many reasons. There's the reason that you know, I
got into elephant study, which is that they have these
incredible social behaviors. They have strong relationships like we do,
and those relationships are adapted. They are incredibly important ecosystem engineers.
And so they are tree killers, which means that they
(30:36):
open up savannahs for grassland and prevent the sort of
bush encroachment that you get in a lot of areas.
They also create these paths that are used by other
wildlife by people. They dig, they release water from underground.
I mean, there's so many ways in which they serve
as important ecosystem engineers. One that we hear about a
lot for forest elephants is that they're seed dispersers. And
(30:57):
there are tree species that have evolved to be eaten
in past the gut of an elephant and depend on
an elephant's gut to actually spread. And so there's so
many ecological reasons. There are incredibly important cultural reasons and
social reasons as well.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Elephants are such an important part of national heritage in Kenya,
and so there is a strong societal significance. And I
touched on the wisdom that communities have from living with elephants,
and that's because that shared space dates so far back,
and so the meaningful connection to elephants is there. And
(31:32):
it's not to say that even with challenges, people don't
want elephants there. And so a lot of our strategies
are also building tolerance for accepting some of these risks,
but having the ability and the belief that they can
address any of these challenges to continue sharing space with elephants.
Shiftframentioned how elephants can be ecosystem engineers open up space
(31:56):
for grasslands to develop and flourish, and people that are
living with livestock need those grass resources, and so there's
many social and ecological reasons why protecting a future for
people and elephants is so important.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Pretty good answers, yeahs.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
And it goes right into reminding everyone that we're all interconnected,
even in our human bubbles. We can appreciate wildlife, a
bird or whatever flying over a squirrel in the park,
but we're all connected. And we lose the elephants, the
folks over there will lose their entire livelihood essentially because
the engineering of the ecosystem. And that's an obvious point
there in the sense it was big mammal doing big
(32:32):
things but it's true for all species. They're all interconnected,
they all play a part in the world we live in.
It's so important for us to have our lives as well,
So it's great.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 8 (32:42):
One of the reasons that we are able to have
this conversation is because there are elephants in that landscape,
because people have co existed with elephants for hundreds of years,
and I think that's an important one to re Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
It makes me excited.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
You guys, they think of communities like in the Amazon
dealing with jaguars or maybe leopards in Asia. I mean
so many different things, even mountain lion. Here in the
United States, we're not.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You're removed from these coplaces as well.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Right, so maybe applications in Africa could be useful here
in the United States as well. But I love what
you guys are doing community work, engaging everyone together and
not just the Alliance alone. Right, We're always saying it
over two hundred collaborators around the world.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
We can't do it alone.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
So this is the stuff that really makes my heart sinks.
I really appreciate you telling me these stories.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Is great.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And before we wrap up, I was just reminded we're
here at the zoo, of course, and a family.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Just walked by.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Can we ask real quick each of you, how did
you get into this line of work? This is this
is your lifelihood, this is what you do. Yeah, and
we asked this question a lot of.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Our wildlife care specialists and whatnot.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
But the level of conservation science where you're going back
and forth to Kenya, where you're helping bring communities together
and you're listening to communities to bring better information back,
how did you get to where you are today?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Either?
Speaker 4 (33:45):
When of you go first, think about the little kids
here because no shape. But your jobs are the ones
people think about when they think about the aligns.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
You guys are out.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
There sweating it up, getting bitten by mosquito, step on
an elephant poop, I'm sure, but you're smiling every second
it anyway, it's great.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
People ask me if I thought that I would be
exactly here, and the answer is no.
Speaker 7 (34:05):
I was interested in education. I wanted to be an educator.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
I've always loved nature, and so I started my career
with San Diegazy Wildlifeliones in some of our environmental education programs.
I was evaluating those to understand how people learn about
the environment, how they feel about certain pro environraural behaviors.
And then that really turned my attention to human behavior
as this driver of challenges that species face and also
(34:29):
this key that can turn some conservation strategies toward positive
futures for people in wildlife. And so I went to
graduate school my degrees focused on participation in conservation. For
my PhD work, I studied human draft interactions and poaching
is a threat to giraffe in Kenya. That's what really
built a lot of my relationships with these pastoralist communities.
(34:51):
And now I get to focus on the human dimensions
and ensure that our conservation strategies are for community goals
as much as they are to boost species population. And
before Shiff introduces herself or maybe after, the reason that
I'm so glad that we got to have this conversation
together is because our partnership is something I really value
(35:12):
in that it's bridging some of the social and ecological perspectives.
So we mentioned these dynamic systems and so being able
to approach some of these systems and understanding by pulling
information from communities, pulling information from elephant movements is really
valuable and so I love doing this with scientific partners
as well.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I love it.
Speaker 8 (35:34):
And so for me, yeah, my family, I will say
it's always been extremely supportive of just following my interests
wherever they leave. And so I read everything I could,
and you know, as an undergrad like, I realized, oh,
if I'm interested in ecology, I should get some experience
doing ecological research, and so I cold went up to
a professor and he was awesome and he mentored me
(35:55):
for the next year and a half and kind of
taught me about ecological research.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
And then that continued.
Speaker 8 (35:59):
As I realized is that I wasn't really interested in
pursuing a career in freshwater diatoms. I was, it was fascinating,
but I was really interested in animal behavior and particularly
an animal social behavior, and so I started reaching out
to people who were doing the job that I wanted
to do, and eventually I got in touch with who
became my PhD professor and who taught me a tremendous
(36:22):
amount about elephants and ecology and sort of crossing the
world between animal behavior and applied conservation. And so that
was really important and so I like to tell younger
people you know, like have a little hutzpa and make
sure that you're like reaching out and be okay with
rejection because you might not hear back.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's a good word hoodspy or little age, right, a
little saw. But that's great.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yeah, oh yeah, and I agree with that too.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
It's like, if you're really passionate about it, a no,
it doesn't mean no forever. It just means not that person,
not that connection, not the route you're supposed to be on.
But keep following that passion and your curiosity, and eventually
water finds its balance. Right, you'll get to where you belong.
Where you guys are great examples of that.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, yes, later on.
Speaker 8 (37:04):
Exactly exactly, and then find awesome colleagues you can work
that keeps you guys.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
But again, right, it's that passion you each have has
brought you together to become colleagues, to become that cohort
that now you can bring others into around the.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
World for this work.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
So thank you both so much for spending some time
with us, sharing your stories and all the work you
guys are doing.
Speaker 5 (37:23):
Thank you for having us and for highlighting community based work.
It's so fulfilling for us, and I hope we're back
to share how this work progresses.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
I think we need to. This article is really rat
so literally everyone can jump on. Get the journal, become
a member, and your project does progress. If something comes
up that doesn't end up in the journal, give us
a call again for an update. Thank you, Thank you
some elephant nuckles.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Community was really good. That was really I.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Love when we talk about community, diversity of people over
the world, the United the Alliance, all these people together
work in and benefiting wildlife.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's just it's great, right well.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
You know, it's definitely an underlying current through every piece
of conservation we talk about, no matter what species, no
matter what location on the world you're in the US
or anywhere else, even like burrowing owls here in San Diego,
for example, there's an ongoing part of it, which is community,
trusting the locals and what they understand and know, and
(38:25):
working with them, collaboration with other organizations, not just doing
it ourselves, bringing together these teams to then not just
go Okay, we're done here and walk away, but let
that team that's staying there, that lives.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
It's part of it.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Grow and become a part of that conservation and the
diversity of people that have to come together to make
that work. It's been a part of every story so far,
yet it's unique.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
To each story.
Speaker 4 (38:47):
Also, it's wild right now, and just the nuances of
human culture and in this case, elephant culture and all
these traditions woven together makes me excited of the possibilities
of the future for all manners of walking life.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And we're just talked about.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Bees to elephants, but also we got to think about
the plants too, and these kind of conversations, right, and
that might be something we're gonna touch on that episode.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
As a lovely lead in a great you're like a
professional podcast you are Amanda.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
For that one.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
But no, but it's exciting, right. We get we're talking
about some orchids.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
We're going to talk about a dangered orchid.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Maybe we'll be the orchid house.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
That's cool, guest.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Maybe our general audience might think, oh, orchids, I see
them in the store all the time.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
But these are orchids.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
We're like, maybe there's four left on the planet hundred percent, right,
And they get just as effected with all these conflicts
as well, with human beings also, so I can't.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Wait to talk about them.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
All right, Well, there you go.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
We're going to stay at the Zoo another episode, but
I'm excited about It's going.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
To be a good one.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
So if you haven't subscribed, please do and tune in
next time we talk about and learn more about in
endangered orchids right here at the San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Can't wait. I'm Marko Went and.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I'm Rick Schwartz. Thanks for listening and for watching.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San
Diego Zuosafari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife
is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikia
Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra
Spreen and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(40:19):
to your favorite shows.
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz. What is the world?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I'm Marco Went and this This is Amazing Wildlife, a
podcast where we cover unique stories of wildlife from around
the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast is
in production with iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Alliance, an international nonprofit conservation.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Organization which oversees this beautiful.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Place, the San Diego Zoo where we are now and
the San Diego Zoo Safari Park.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
You know, every time you do that monel like my friend.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Which it's an intro, but you know, I tend to
like get in sync with our surrounding area. Guess where
we're here at the zoo again. There's a robin flying
behind you. There is a red shild or hawk cruising around.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We're lucky that we get to go on locations of
this podcast. I know a lot of podcasts are in
studio and sound control and all that, but I think
we're lucky we get to places.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
And I was remembering, like we were talking about and
Panda last and we were here in the area at
the zoo right, like we learned a lot of really
cool things and it made me think of like even
just like bears in general and where bears live, and
even like some people live really close to maybe like
a grizzly or a polar air.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
It's actually a big part of the conservation world that
we have. Yeah, there's humans. They're a big part of
why we need that conservation yea.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
I mean even being a native San Diego you know,
I know they're mountain lying in the area, but it's
something we have to think about. And you know, while
we were talking about it, we brought this wonderful journal, right.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So for those who.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Video yet, we brought our scenes a wildlife journal, a
wildfe Lions Journal. Excuse me, Yeah, that came out in
July and August partly only dropped mine.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Sorry mind so pristine and beautiful.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
But even in the cover, man, I means like there's
a beautiful species right here, like a leopard, right and
then in the middle here there's a really cool title,
which I want to get props at Peggy, who actually
I learned later came out with the title and we
can talk about a little more. But it's a common ground, right,
and a lot of really interesting facts and stories about
community and wildlife.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, there's two articles that I want to make sure
you know. And this is the benefit of being a
member of the San Diego Zoo and the Safari Park
is not only do you get the free entrance with
every visit and guests get all sorts of extra things
that way too, but you get these great stories that
come in and talk a lot about the inside of
what we do as an organization. And there's one article
in here about the jaguar and human conflicts that occur
in South and Central America and the work being done
(02:20):
to help mitigate that, to help change that from being
a conflict to be living in coexistence. And then the
other one you mentioned, common Ground, of course, which is
about all the elephants there in Kenya and work being
done to find common ground for humans and elephants to
live together there.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I know, I mean, I think we should talk about
it more.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I think we should.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
But instead of you and I just talking about the articles,
why don't we ask the experts that we have with Oh, I.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Know, we got the experts. Hey, good morning, experts.
Speaker 6 (02:42):
Good morning extnie y, good morning.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Let them know who you are and what your title
is here with this organization.
Speaker 7 (02:48):
I'm doctor Christy Rupert.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
I am an Associate Director of Community Engagement on our
Conservation Science where on Life Health team, I get to
work on the human dimensions of conservation, so understanding how
people interact with wildlife, how they affect by wildlife conservation,
and how our conservation hubs can support human wildlife coexistence
around the globe.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
This is a small job, that's awesome.
Speaker 8 (03:09):
And I'm doctor Schiffer Goldenberg and I'm a scientist also
within our Conservation Science and Wildlife Health department, and I
work mostly in ecological fields and mostly on megafauna, so
large animals that he plants.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Oh wow, that would be.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Here.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Okay, fair enough.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I mean there was a lot to talk about. Can
you guys highlight a little like what's succor this article
for you? What impressed you so much about it?
Speaker 6 (03:32):
Yeah? Sure, so I can start.
Speaker 8 (03:34):
I think part of a collaboration with social science is
really understanding how important those long term relationships are and
the process of conversation about what the problem is and
what the context is for that conflict and coexistence. And
this work in particular grew out of human leopard coexistence
work that Kirsty and her colleagues have been leading for
(03:54):
many years, and it was that collaboration that really allowed
us to expand into this space of human elephant code systems.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
And part of the reason the conversation really emerged to
the top is reflective of broader trends and patterns in Kenya,
where a lot of our work is centered. The challenges
to elephant populations historically have revolved around ivory poaching, so
in global demand for ivory products, and over the last
(04:21):
ten or so years, Kenya and many other countries have
really stemmed ivory poaching as the main pressure on elephant populations.
That is a major success for conservation and thinking about
overall populations. Though the rates that elephants are illegally killed
has actually shifted more so over to conflicts with people
(04:41):
and so in Kenya, trying to better understand human elephant
conflict as a challenge to people and elephants has helped
kind of emerge this as a focus for us in
our work.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So I want to ask real quick so we can
kind of set the common ground for our audience, what
are the actual conflicts someone listening to this, who might
live in, whether it's rural Middle America or a big
city like San Diego or Los Angeles or somewhere like that,
may not really have a clear picture as to what
is human elephant conflict, what conflict could possibly exist, because
(05:13):
I don't know if that's a clearer image as to
how people might have to coexist with them in Kenya.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, yeah, so what are some of the problems.
Speaker 8 (05:20):
It's a really great question. And so if people have
heard about human elephant conflict, they've probably heard about crop reading,
which is elephants going into agricultural fields and just eating
their fill and trampling crops in the process. That's not
as much of an issue in the area where we
work in northern Kenya because it tends to be a
very dry area where it's not supportive of very large
(05:40):
scale agriculture. So we do see some crop reading, and
we do see some you know, destruction of kitchen gardens,
but we also see a lot of conflict emerging in
other cases, some cases where trees are being ripped down
by elephants when they switch to brows in the dry season,
going after water resources that are shared, and then you know,
things sort of change in space and time where people
(06:02):
are walking to community resources like a school or a
clinic and they're bumping into elephants and it escalates from there.
And so those are some of the issues that we
see and that we hear about from this community.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I mean, it seems like it's so vary too.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I mean, I'm a TikTok scarlier you guys, And sometimes
I get on some videos where I see a video
of maybe a rhino that went into a suburban area
and for good reason, the mother is very worried about
her child. And I imagine it's extremely specific and nuanced.
Even just Africa alone, I would imagine different communities where
the north or south and we have to listen, right,
we have to work with those communities. Can you talk
(06:34):
a little bit more about that, like how do we
as the Alliance help out those communities in those kind
of scenarios.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
I think this relates to something Triffer is just touching on,
which is that the conflicts are varied. Yeah, conflicts are
not singular and they're not static. And so when we
approached engaging with these communities in Northern Kenya, a lot
of it was about understanding the diversity of interactions and challenges,
as well as priorities for coexistence where people see elephants
(07:01):
and where the interactions are not negative so that can
be maintained and supported. And really it was about prioritization too,
so we tried to be open and honest and that
conflict is never going to be eliminated, is never going
to be zero. These conflicts are going to fluctuate as
conditions change over time, and so part of the process
(07:22):
was developing one that was a trusted and transparent process
to rate and prioritize what types of conflicts communities wanted
to address first. And we did this by pulling information
from different channels, like said for scientists, we want information
to guide some of these decisions. Data data that's generated
by these community members, and I think that's really important
(07:44):
because the decision making around what's selected to pursue, having
that come from voices within the community at different levels,
so not just people informal power, but pulling those different
perspectives to understand as a community what to approach first
was really important to us. So we started with mapping
exercises to understand again spatially, where people are really dependent
(08:08):
on natural resources like water sources, or grazing blocks for
their livestock. We did a number of focus group discussions
and that really illuminated some of the seasonal aspects of
human elephant interactions that were really pertinent to our decision
making process. And then also a representative survey, and that
was to get at some of the voices within the
(08:28):
community that maybe aren't always at the community meetings, So
how do you get a representative sample from these areas?
That helped us rate and prioritize if we can't address everything,
what's most important to address first. And this helped us
identify human safety, particularly for children walking to school, as
something community members certainly wanted to address first.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
I mean specifically on the really hit home for me
was those people who can't go to those certain meetings
as an example, get that data, ranchers. I'm thinking out
in the back of the country and there are opinions matter.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Greatly as well these scenario.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
So that's really great that you guys are trying to
invest in all manners of community in different walks of life.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So that's really cool.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
It was important to us as well to gather that
information before any of these strategies started, so we can
monitor that over time, learn what's working what's not, so
that our conservation strategies could be adjusted.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, you had mentioned that it'll never go to zero,
that there's always going to be fluctuations of different things
going on in the environment. Populations of course as well,
can change things. There's so many variables. But of course
the goal is to mitigate it as much as possible,
and it being of course the conflict between the elephants
and the people.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
When it comes to doing this, and we've talked.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
About this for in fact, they just came up in
pandas that conservation isn't just to go in and solve
the riddle and you're done.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
It is a long game. It's a long process.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
When you look at the riddle of elephant human conflict,
knowing it's going to be a long game, what are
some of the more important things you look at going
into that. We've talked about really addressing things within the community,
listening to them, leaning on their knowledge and expertise of
the environment and the weather patterns and the elephants and
all that.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
But for this long game of mitigating.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
This, what's probably some of the more important things you
guys have come across so far.
Speaker 8 (10:11):
That's a really great question. I think you touched on it.
With a complexity. There is so much complexity involved with
human elephant conflict for a number of reasons. Elephants, as
we know, are extremely smart animals. They are problem solvers
and they figure out a bluff. And so what we
know with mitigation methods is that they will find the
weak points or they will understand when it's actually not
(10:32):
that risky to do what they're trying to tell you.
So and of course they're driven to these great resources.
Elephants they have these spatial maps in their head. They
know where they're going, they know when those resources are ripe,
whether it's accia pods on trees or you know, water
sources that are ephemeral, and so that's a piece of
the complexity. Another piece of the complexity is that the
seasonal dynamics of the place change all the time, and
(10:54):
so the levels of conflict and the distribution of conflict changes.
And then there are other degrees of come complexity, including
whether a community is willing to buy into a particular intervention,
whether there are barriers for entry with that intervention, financial sustainability,
of the method that kind of thing, and so Kirsty
touched on this a bit where she spoke about level
setting at the beginning and understanding what we're going to
(11:17):
be able to do and what we're not going to
be able to do, and so prioritizing and understanding that
there's always going to be some degree of conflict, but
where can we prioritize And then to the piece about adaptability.
I think it's really important to understand that because you
need a suite of tools and you need the adaptability
piece within a community. We have really focused effort on
(11:38):
training for community members who are dealing with conflict so
that people actually are able.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
To go and you know, not reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 8 (11:45):
There are resources available, there are organizations who are leading trainings,
and so the last couple of years or so, we've
been facilitating a lot of those exchanges so that there
are people embedded within the community who can adapt as
the conflicts change well.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
And that gives them a sense of ownership too. It's
not just you walking in the same Okay, this is
what you need to do. I'm going to go back
home now. I'll be back in a few months to
check on you.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But when you do the training and there's other organizations
that are involved. The partnerships that we have with other
organizations are so important. But then giving ownership to of
the individuals who live there, who are dealing with the
conflict on a daily basis to then empower them to
teach others as well. Really is that sense of ownership
where you can go back and check up on them,
but you're not needed there every single day.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I would imagine a little more inclined to you know,
I definitely know that guy from the other side of
the valley, but these I don't know about the es
day from the alliance because that could be something that
you have to contend with. I would imagine sometimes in
certain communities, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah, this brings up a point that we always like
to highlight, which is the incredible team on the ground
that we work with.
Speaker 7 (12:43):
Yeah, so I wish he.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Was sitting next to me, our Human Round Life Code
Existence coordinator and Kenny his name is Ambrose, led to Luai.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Shout out to Ambrose.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Ambrose, and he is helping to manage this group of
community conservation assistants that are going down to learn from
save yellowpant since Southern Kenya about the human elephant coexistence
toolbox and the point about ownership, I think that goes
part and parcel with leadership within these communities and different
roles and opportunities. Something we've learned from exploring this elephant
(13:12):
coexistence work is that there are different types of knowledge
and experience that can have a role in.
Speaker 7 (13:18):
Any collective strategy.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
So someone perhaps is formally trained in the toolbox and
they can lead trainings about say, reading elephant behavior, and
then in addition, they can invite or have an elder
from the community to share about their wisdom that they've
developed through the course of their life living with elephants.
A key part of our process has been sharing results
from the different streams of information that we've been gathering
(13:43):
so that any decision making is collective. And I always
remember sitting in Lasso Lodge next to Ambrose and next
to our other colleague, LExEN, and one of the elders said,
I definitely want there to be education days where you're
sharing about this toolbox. I want to be there and
share what I know too, and that wisdom piece I
(14:03):
think is really important for this elephant work. We did
ask those questions and some of the surveys about what
do you already do? And that is really important to
understand also as we're evaluating any strategies and interventions, because
it's not a clean slate, this is not a static
laboratory setting, so understanding what people are already doing and
(14:24):
how well they think those strategies work is an important
component of this as well.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So I want to ask.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Both of you mentioned a couple of times the toolbox,
and I know in context what you mean, but for
our audience who may be guessing or trying to understand
what that means, what is the toolbox?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Right?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Not a literal one exactly.
Speaker 6 (14:44):
So it's a book.
Speaker 8 (14:45):
It's essentially a manual that our colleagues that Save the
Elephants put together, which is a collection of all the
different mitigation strategies that people have used.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
And the different ways that they work.
Speaker 8 (14:55):
And as well, it's really important it's sort of the
trade off of labor and costs that's involved, and so
obviously not every method is going to work in every community,
and so it allows people to really evaluate what might
work in their communities, what they're already doing, and so
they have trainings along with that manual, and they have
it published in many languages at this point, and they're always
(15:16):
updating it so visual.
Speaker 7 (15:18):
It's illustrations are gorgeous, and it is available online.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
So anyone listening to this podcast our members can search
the Human Elephant Coexistence Toolbox and find the website that
Save the Elephants manages and updates regularly with different languages,
and as the evidence base around coexistence evolves and develops.
I think that's an important aspect too. Is part of
the toolbox development was a call for information about how
(15:42):
well these strategies work, so that could be refined over
time as well.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
I'm curiously when you talked about methods that were successful
and we're not successful for listeners who have no idea
what's going on out there with elephants in different communities,
could you give me like a couple examples, maybe one
a little more rule and maybe one a little more urban,
if you can think of a certain different situations you
know or not, just whatever pops up in your head.
You know, some of the nuances of elephant and human
interactions and conflicts.
Speaker 7 (16:06):
That have fences high. What do you want?
Speaker 5 (16:09):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Yeah, and actually the one that's a good one because
actually there's a really cool picture and I mean I
can describe a little bit, but it's a picture.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Actually, you guys describe this picture? What am I looking
at right here?
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Yeah, so this is a photo that's in the common
Ground article within the Sez tw a journal I got
to take this photo actually, but yeah, during.
Speaker 7 (16:28):
A visit, yeah, thank you. During a visit from or
for Chewy Mamas.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
They were being hosted by one of the women's groups
that say the Elephants work at called Loam Beni. So
they were at the women's center that's next to Save
the Elephants camp in Savo or in the Voi Savo
area of Kenya, and one of the Save the Elephants
staff members is describing a beehive fence to these Chewy Mamas.
Be High fences are an incredible innovation that work in
(16:54):
that the the beehives are set up around a fixed boundaries,
such as around a farm, and there's wire between each
of those bee hives, and so the beehives will shake
if something touches them like an elephant or in the wind,
and be highs and the sound would invoke a few
response from elephants. And so that would keep elephants further
away from the farm Shiffra, Is that right?
Speaker 8 (17:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah, And I think this is an incredible innovation. There
are some really important considerations though. One is that there's
heavy initial cost investment and so it's not a viable
option for some household owners that are more resource constrained.
So there's a heavy initial cost investment. And then a
really important aspect is that bees require water sources nearby
(17:37):
and so yeah, so you need bees within those boxes
for it to be an effective fence tool. And so
in drought times, which is a natural but unfortunately exacerbated
aspect of conditions in Kenya giving climate related drought impacts,
if the bees aren't there, then the fence isn't going
to work, right, Yeah. So I think that it's incredible
(17:59):
to look at where these beehive fences work because it's
also producing a product that someone can sell for an
additional income stream.
Speaker 7 (18:06):
But I think the really important.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Place for us to highlight here is that the behigh
fences are going to be fixed spatially.
Speaker 7 (18:12):
It's going to be around something like a crop.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
And where we work in northern Kenya, the conflicts are
not fixed spatially. They are around resource access and use,
looking for grasslands, looking for water, walking to school, walking
to a clinic, and so something like a beehiveh fence
isn't going to be a match for some of the
pastoralist communities that we work in, right, and just real quick,
pastoral community means what pastoralism is referring to societies that
(18:37):
keep and herd livestock. So it's around livestock production. It's
not only an important part of economic security. It's tied
to food security, it's tied to cultural significance. And so
in northern Kenya where we work in, like Hippia and
Sambru Counties in particular, the pastoralist communities are really important
partners for conservation. And so all of our conservation strategies.
Speaker 7 (18:57):
Are going to involve livestocks that happen.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, and I have a little more that too, So
people here in America that might be listening. It's not
like a farm where they bring hay to the livestock.
They are hurting their livestock every morning out of the
little bomas or areas they create for safety.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Overnight, they're walking through the wilds.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Basically the finals grasslanes you had mentioned that's where those
conflicts can happen, and they bring them back in at
night time there's no delivery of hay or grains, so
they're really very much a part of the habitat that
they're living in with those elephants exactly.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
And that's part of the decision making around these community
conservancies where we work. So community conservancies are such a
critical land use type, not only for land rights for
pastoralist communities, but because wildlife cannot survive in government protected
areas alone.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
There's just not enough space.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
And so the community conservancies are neighboring some of these
formally protected areas or private conservancies and managing landscape level
wildlife populations. And so the community conservancies, that's part of
their governance is deciding where livestock can graze during different
times of the year. What a few minutes ago referred
to a core conservation area or a grazing block. Those
(20:05):
are areas where the community would decide, Okay, we can
graze livestock here for these particular months until certain conditions change,
like the next set of rains come, etc. The other
aspect I want to mention is that pastoralism is changing too.
So in the last few decades, more past oralist communities
in the North have been keeping small stock like goats
(20:25):
and sheep, and the grazing patterns for goats and sheep
is different than cattle, So some of those considerations around
where some of these livestock are going is important as well.
You'd ask us about different strategies and trade offs. I
talked about the high fences, Shifferd. Did you want to
talk about other types of fences too. I think this
is another part of the conversation when you think about
large scale land use planning.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Speaker 8 (20:47):
So you know, electric fences are another popular intervention for conflict.
They don't come without costs. I mean there's very heavy
investment to begin with. And then also, you know, elephants
can figure out how to bring through a fence either
they find a weak point, they figure out their tusks
don't conduct electricity and they use them.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
No but serious talk about the videos to look at
watching an elephant figure out they could use their tusks
to get is oh yourritible?
Speaker 8 (21:17):
Yeah, and then you get these notorious fence breakers that
people know about, like these repeat offenders exactly, and because
they're social learners. You know, they're teaching those types of behaviors,
and so that becomes an issue. But it also, i
think Christy was alluding to it touches on something else
that we talk about a lot within conservation sounds and
wildlife health, which is landscape permeability. And so senses aren't
(21:40):
always great because you want to encourage movement, right, and
it really can restrict movement. And in this landscape in particular,
movement is critical Cattle they are tracking those fresh grasses,
and so are elephants and other wildlife, and they're changing
their land use patterns as there's more ephemeral water on
the landscape, and so that movement really allows the habitat
(22:01):
to sort of recover in some areas when you know
there's not as much pressure on it because the wildlife
have moved elsewhere, and so that's an important one. You
asked about other interventions and when they might work and
when they don't, and so part of the period when
we were looking and talking to people and looking and
seeing what people are already doing, were some really incredible
interventions that people had done just out of materials that
(22:22):
were around essentially trash, so like plastic bottles putting them
on wire fences because there's like a whistling sound that
comes through and.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Then elephants and it sounds weird over.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Exactly can go so far, I imagine.
Speaker 8 (22:37):
Well, that's the point is that elephants figured out they
might be freaked out initially, and then they realize, oh,
that's at that tree looks really good and.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
Say for it that that maybe the sound is repulsive
until the acacia pods inside looked just good enough to
try it exactly.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
On the couch, you know, like, do I get up
and get those chips that I know I want to
get that I'm gonna so I really really need it,
you know. But that's really fascinating and so challenging with
such an intelligent animal as well, especially one the history
of communities in those areas in Africa. They're ingrained in
the nuances of wildlife. Zebra flow in one area and
so or they're cattle and whatnot. But then you have
(23:16):
a big elephant rollman in and you have to navigate
those things. How does one navigate an area where there
is no fence involved?
Speaker 8 (23:21):
You know?
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Do we understand the movements of behavior the elephant hurts
in that area and we try to navigate around those
behaviors or what are some of the strategies in that regard.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, the two things that come to mind have to
do with elephant wear behavior, So.
Speaker 8 (23:34):
Yeah, why don't you touch on that, and I can
touch about tracking elephants.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Sure, So the foot based encounters that are tied to
human safety are part of one of our current strategies
that's highlighted in the toolbox, and that is understanding elephant behavior,
being able to read it as you are on the landscape.
And so one way to think about it is almost
these zones and thresholds, So if you come across an elephant,
(24:02):
making a decision about what you can do given how
aggravated they are or how close you are. So that's
one piece is reading elephant behavior, reading their cues, their
body language. And the big part of that though, is
trying to avoid it beforehand. And so one aspect that
we're working to coordinate with our community partners is a
(24:24):
pilot that's going on right now during the school term,
which is gathering the students in the morning and having
them walked as a group by someone that's trained in
elephant or where behavior that's gone to the toolbox training,
and that has kind of cleared away based on some
of our other representatives that have called in to say, actually,
this path is safe. We're just there and there aren't
(24:45):
elephants there this morning. So you're trying to avoid it.
You're trying to strengthen numbers with the kids, and you're
trying to put into perspective what to do given the
situation with that particular elephant. Are there multiple elephants? There
is there a baby? There is it a single male?
Speaker 7 (25:00):
Exactly? Exactly?
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Wow?
Speaker 8 (25:02):
Yeah, So elephant aware of behavior and it's again you'll
find this in the toolbox that we spoke about earlier.
It's learning to read elephant behavior and so what are
the signs that they're aggravated, What are the signs that
you're too close?
Speaker 6 (25:13):
What might you do if they start to escalate? Right?
What's the safe way to get away?
Speaker 8 (25:18):
And so that's an important one, is just making sure
that people are sort of on the same page in
reading elephant behavior. If you see a bowl elephant, should
you look for other elephants. There's often an idea that
elephant bowls are alone, but that's not always true, right,
And so little aspects of that and understanding the ecology
and their behavior a little bit better, and that's been
a focus of the training.
Speaker 7 (25:39):
You want to give an example of sound.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I feel like this is an interesting specifics of wind
sound and maybe something like an auditory noise could help
or could hurt given how close you are to the elephant.
I'm thinking about the vo voozellas in the toolbox.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
Oh you talk about it.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Okay, before we get to that. Yeah, I want to
point I love that story. By the way.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
It makes me think the kids can actually learn how
to read elephant behavior when y're watching the trained individual
for true, and I bet a lot of those crosswalkers
in the state, so listen to this, like man, I
could be read that.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
It's a really cool concept.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
So anyway, I love that idea, like just teaching the kids,
you know, from square one, seeing the kids.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
From square one, and then embedding some of that evaluation throughout.
So I think that the data that's present and Kenya
oftentimes is around incidences when something happens. Is there a
crop rating incident? Is there something a really unfortunate safety
incident where someone gets hurt or worse, But we don't
have data on when something works to keep elephants away
(26:38):
from somewhere. And that's what this pilot is helping us
to do too, in trying to get that reflection on
how well something's working. So having concentrated effort for a
short period of time and then coming back to reflect
and learn with that community decide if that's what we'll
pursue going forward is an important part of this process
as well. It's not a problem solution and then we
(26:58):
go and then they go and it works. It's going
to be a process and I think that is something
that we've committed to and has built the trust needed
to enable any of this work. So that I think
is a key aspect of the adaptability piece that Schiffer
was mentioning.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
That's right.
Speaker 8 (27:14):
Yeah, And Marco, you asked also about you know, on
the elephant side, like how can we monitor the elephants
and there are others on the landscape who are tracking
elephants that are prone to come into conflict. We're not
doing that work, but it can really inform how they
move around these resources and really importantly and touches on
something that we haven't discussed yet today, which is the
drivers of conflict. And so We've talked a lot about
(27:36):
mitigation methods, but land use is a big, big driver
of conflict, and so how a particular space is used,
whether it's a human area or a wildlife area. Are
there areas that have been corridors for elephants forever and
they're not going to stop even if there's development in there,
And so some of those tracking studies can really help
identify those corridors and help in those bigger conversations around
(27:59):
land use, planning, habitat fragmentation, which increases interactions between humans
and elephants.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
While you're speaking, actually makes me think maybe some guests
aren't aware of like how elephants are so nuanced and
their traditions and their culture of what they do. I mean,
it makes me think of certain elephant species crossing vast deserts.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
But the matriarch Abuelita, how the she.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Knows, you know, in a few miles are going to
hit that water source right there. So maybe people aren't
aware of that that these antle fins are really committed
in their traditions.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
They're like, to your point, they're going to go through
this town because this is what.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
We've been doing for generations, generations, So we have to
think about.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Those practices absolutely.
Speaker 8 (28:33):
And if you want to see a really cool map
and you know, sort of story about Abulita is like
you can look at this paper published by Polanski at
All twenty fifteen and it showed these elephants in the
Namibian desert and you see their tracks. They're wandering, they're wandering,
they're wandering. It gets to a certain point when their
calves are going to need water and they be lined
for the closest water source, even if.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
That's kilometers away.
Speaker 8 (28:54):
It's remarkable how they do that, so they know very
well where that resource is.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah, and to your point you'd said, these elephant corridors,
these corridors, they're not super highways in the fact that
there's a lot of traffic, but it is this path
that they have known for generations and it's been passed
down for generations. So if maybe in the season that
they're not using that corridor, something is built there or
humans try to move into that space, that's an immediate
conflict that's going to occur because the elephant's like, no,
(29:19):
this is our road, this is where we've always gone.
So understanding the behavior of elephants, understanding the need of
the humans. Now, one thing we didn't touch on because
I think for us and probably for our audience, it's
kind of an understood why is this even important? Why
even address this? Why worry about the elephants? Why do
we care to try and make sure everyone can get along?
Why not just go, hey, humans need this and is
here we are great?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That's a heavy.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Fair and I do think I do believe our audience
listens to us, they're fans of this, understand the parts
of these conversations of conservation. But also it's a fair
question as because let's say somebody who's listening saying, hey,
I just listened to this great thing, this is what
they're doing for it, and.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Someone's just looking. Why does that matter? Yeah, let's give
them that information. Why does that matter?
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Let's let our audience have the opportunity to spread the
words sort of like you know, you were saying, how
we need to teach everyone these aspects of mitigating the
conflict by I understanding elephants. Let's teach our audience why
is this important? Why does it matter?
Speaker 8 (30:14):
You know? I think elephants are remarkable animals for many, many, many, many,
many many reasons. There's the reason that you know, I
got into elephant study, which is that they have these
incredible social behaviors. They have strong relationships like we do,
and those relationships are adapted. They are incredibly important ecosystem engineers.
And so they are tree killers, which means that they
(30:36):
open up savannahs for grassland and prevent the sort of
bush encroachment that you get in a lot of areas.
They also create these paths that are used by other
wildlife by people. They dig, they release water from underground.
I mean, there's so many ways in which they serve
as important ecosystem engineers. One that we hear about a
lot for forest elephants is that they're seed dispersers. And
(30:57):
there are tree species that have evolved to be eaten
in past the gut of an elephant and depend on
an elephant's gut to actually spread. And so there's so
many ecological reasons. There are incredibly important cultural reasons and
social reasons as well.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Elephants are such an important part of national heritage in Kenya,
and so there is a strong societal significance. And I
touched on the wisdom that communities have from living with elephants,
and that's because that shared space dates so far back,
and so the meaningful connection to elephants is there. And
(31:32):
it's not to say that even with challenges, people don't
want elephants there. And so a lot of our strategies
are also building tolerance for accepting some of these risks,
but having the ability and the belief that they can
address any of these challenges to continue sharing space with elephants.
Shiftframentioned how elephants can be ecosystem engineers open up space
(31:56):
for grasslands to develop and flourish, and people that are
living with livestock need those grass resources, and so there's
many social and ecological reasons why protecting a future for
people and elephants is so important.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Pretty good answers, yeahs.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
And it goes right into reminding everyone that we're all interconnected,
even in our human bubbles. We can appreciate wildlife, a
bird or whatever flying over a squirrel in the park,
but we're all connected. And we lose the elephants, the
folks over there will lose their entire livelihood essentially because
the engineering of the ecosystem. And that's an obvious point
there in the sense it was big mammal doing big
(32:32):
things but it's true for all species. They're all interconnected,
they all play a part in the world we live in.
It's so important for us to have our lives as well,
So it's great.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 8 (32:42):
One of the reasons that we are able to have
this conversation is because there are elephants in that landscape,
because people have co existed with elephants for hundreds of years,
and I think that's an important one to re Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
It makes me excited.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
You guys, they think of communities like in the Amazon
dealing with jaguars or maybe leopards in Asia. I mean
so many different things, even mountain lion. Here in the
United States, we're not.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
You're removed from these coplaces as well.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Right, so maybe applications in Africa could be useful here
in the United States as well. But I love what
you guys are doing community work, engaging everyone together and
not just the Alliance alone. Right, We're always saying it
over two hundred collaborators around the world.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
We can't do it alone.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
So this is the stuff that really makes my heart sinks.
I really appreciate you telling me these stories.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Is great.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And before we wrap up, I was just reminded we're
here at the zoo, of course, and a family.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Just walked by.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Can we ask real quick each of you, how did
you get into this line of work? This is this
is your lifelihood, this is what you do. Yeah, and
we asked this question a lot of.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Our wildlife care specialists and whatnot.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
But the level of conservation science where you're going back
and forth to Kenya, where you're helping bring communities together
and you're listening to communities to bring better information back,
how did you get to where you are today?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Either?
Speaker 4 (33:45):
When of you go first, think about the little kids
here because no shape. But your jobs are the ones
people think about when they think about the aligns.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
You guys are out.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
There sweating it up, getting bitten by mosquito, step on
an elephant poop, I'm sure, but you're smiling every second
it anyway, it's great.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
People ask me if I thought that I would be
exactly here, and the answer is no.
Speaker 7 (34:05):
I was interested in education. I wanted to be an educator.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
I've always loved nature, and so I started my career
with San Diegazy Wildlifeliones in some of our environmental education programs.
I was evaluating those to understand how people learn about
the environment, how they feel about certain pro environraural behaviors.
And then that really turned my attention to human behavior
as this driver of challenges that species face and also
(34:29):
this key that can turn some conservation strategies toward positive
futures for people in wildlife. And so I went to
graduate school my degrees focused on participation in conservation. For
my PhD work, I studied human draft interactions and poaching
is a threat to giraffe in Kenya. That's what really
built a lot of my relationships with these pastoralist communities.
(34:51):
And now I get to focus on the human dimensions
and ensure that our conservation strategies are for community goals
as much as they are to boost species population. And
before Shiff introduces herself or maybe after, the reason that
I'm so glad that we got to have this conversation
together is because our partnership is something I really value
(35:12):
in that it's bridging some of the social and ecological perspectives.
So we mentioned these dynamic systems and so being able
to approach some of these systems and understanding by pulling
information from communities, pulling information from elephant movements is really
valuable and so I love doing this with scientific partners
as well.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I love it.
Speaker 8 (35:34):
And so for me, yeah, my family, I will say
it's always been extremely supportive of just following my interests
wherever they leave. And so I read everything I could,
and you know, as an undergrad like, I realized, oh,
if I'm interested in ecology, I should get some experience
doing ecological research, and so I cold went up to
a professor and he was awesome and he mentored me
(35:55):
for the next year and a half and kind of
taught me about ecological research.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
And then that continued.
Speaker 8 (35:59):
As I realized is that I wasn't really interested in
pursuing a career in freshwater diatoms. I was, it was fascinating,
but I was really interested in animal behavior and particularly
an animal social behavior, and so I started reaching out
to people who were doing the job that I wanted
to do, and eventually I got in touch with who
became my PhD professor and who taught me a tremendous
(36:22):
amount about elephants and ecology and sort of crossing the
world between animal behavior and applied conservation. And so that
was really important and so I like to tell younger
people you know, like have a little hutzpa and make
sure that you're like reaching out and be okay with
rejection because you might not hear back.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's a good word hoodspy or little age, right, a
little saw. But that's great.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yeah, oh yeah, and I agree with that too.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
It's like, if you're really passionate about it, a no,
it doesn't mean no forever. It just means not that person,
not that connection, not the route you're supposed to be on.
But keep following that passion and your curiosity, and eventually
water finds its balance. Right, you'll get to where you belong.
Where you guys are great examples of that.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, yes, later on.
Speaker 8 (37:04):
Exactly exactly, and then find awesome colleagues you can work
that keeps you guys.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
But again, right, it's that passion you each have has
brought you together to become colleagues, to become that cohort
that now you can bring others into around the.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
World for this work.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
So thank you both so much for spending some time
with us, sharing your stories and all the work you
guys are doing.
Speaker 5 (37:23):
Thank you for having us and for highlighting community based work.
It's so fulfilling for us, and I hope we're back
to share how this work progresses.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
I think we need to. This article is really rat
so literally everyone can jump on. Get the journal, become
a member, and your project does progress. If something comes
up that doesn't end up in the journal, give us
a call again for an update. Thank you, Thank you
some elephant nuckles.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Community was really good. That was really I.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Love when we talk about community, diversity of people over
the world, the United the Alliance, all these people together
work in and benefiting wildlife.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's just it's great, right well.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
You know, it's definitely an underlying current through every piece
of conservation we talk about, no matter what species, no
matter what location on the world you're in the US
or anywhere else, even like burrowing owls here in San Diego,
for example, there's an ongoing part of it, which is community,
trusting the locals and what they understand and know, and
(38:25):
working with them, collaboration with other organizations, not just doing
it ourselves, bringing together these teams to then not just
go Okay, we're done here and walk away, but let
that team that's staying there, that lives.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
It's part of it.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Grow and become a part of that conservation and the
diversity of people that have to come together to make
that work. It's been a part of every story so far,
yet it's unique.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
To each story.
Speaker 4 (38:47):
Also, it's wild right now, and just the nuances of
human culture and in this case, elephant culture and all
these traditions woven together makes me excited of the possibilities
of the future for all manners of walking life.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And we're just talked about.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Bees to elephants, but also we got to think about
the plants too, and these kind of conversations, right, and
that might be something we're gonna touch on that episode.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
As a lovely lead in a great you're like a
professional podcast you are Amanda.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
For that one.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
But no, but it's exciting, right. We get we're talking
about some orchids.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
We're going to talk about a dangered orchid.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Maybe we'll be the orchid house.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
That's cool, guest.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Maybe our general audience might think, oh, orchids, I see
them in the store all the time.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
But these are orchids.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
We're like, maybe there's four left on the planet hundred percent, right,
And they get just as effected with all these conflicts
as well, with human beings also, so I can't.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Wait to talk about them.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
All right, Well, there you go.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
We're going to stay at the Zoo another episode, but
I'm excited about It's going.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
To be a good one.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
So if you haven't subscribed, please do and tune in
next time we talk about and learn more about in
endangered orchids right here at the San Diego Zoo.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Can't wait. I'm Marko Went and.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I'm Rick Schwartz. Thanks for listening and for watching.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San
Diego Zuosafari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife
is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikia
Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra
Spreen and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(40:19):
to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Rick Schwartz
Marco Wendt
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