September 16, 2022 • 20 mins
In this episode, we’re exploring New Zealand’s largest reptile and a species that is considered among the most unique wildlife in the world. We’re talking about the tuatara! Hosts Rick and Ebone discuss how these creatures have a “third eye” and why even though it looks like a lizard, its lineage traces back to the age of the dinosaurs. Later, Kim Gray, curator of herpetology and ichthyology, joins the show to chat about this truly one-of-a-kind animal often referred to as a “living fossil.”
If you have a question for Amazing Wildlife you can send them to wildlife@iheartmedia.com for your chance to hear it on the show!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Ebony Money and I'm Rick Schwartz. Welcome to
Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from
around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast
is a production of My Heart Radio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Reliance in international nonprofit conservation organization buying the
San Diego Zoo and Safari Park. This next animal is
(00:27):
truly one of a kind. It's found only in New
Zealand and it holds the title of the island's largest reptile.
It's the two atara. The tuataras closest relatives, are an
extinct group of reptiles that date back to a time
when dinosaurs first roamed the earth. That's why some people
(00:47):
call two ataras living fossils. In the world of science,
they are considered among the most unique wildlife in the
entire world. Rick, I hadn't heard of the tuatara, but
when I pulled up a picture, I thought, oh, it's
a lizard. The tuatara. It looks like a large lizard.
More specifically, it looks like an iguana, similar to the
(01:09):
iguanas we've highlighted and past conversations. But one of the
first things I read was that the tuatara is not
a lizard. So Rick, what makes a lizard and why
is the tuatara not considered a lizard? Well, okay, have
any We're about to leap into one of the more
fascinating reptiles that I have ever had the pleasure of
(01:30):
meeting or learning about. And yes, although the tuatara looks
very much like a lizard, I mean, it walks on
all fours, it has a tail. It even has a
crest of spiky scales called spines down the center of
its back to its tail. Some people even say they
remind them of lizards in the iguana family just by
the way they look. But when we take a closer
(01:51):
look at the taxonomy or the details of bone structure
and other anatomical structures, it becomes apparent that the species
does not fit into the other lizards scientific families. In fact,
it is unique enough that the tuatara is in a
completely different scientific order known as ryan co Cephilia. This
scientific order of reptiles once had over twenty different species
(02:13):
living during the Mesozoic era. This makes the tuatara the
last species of a prehistoric reptile that thrived in the
age of dinosaurs. And to answer your question, Ebony about
what sets them apart from lizards. Well, some of the
less obvious but possibly most telling reasons the tuatara is
not a lizard are internal There are several bones structures
(02:34):
that the tuatara has that are not shared with other lizards,
and without going into too much detail, it also has
to do with the way the tuatara's teeth are connected
to the jaw and when we look at some of
their behaviors, while we also can see how different they
are from other lizards. For example, tuataras actually enjoy cooler
weather while most lizard species like it warm and unlike lizards,
(02:56):
to autaras are nocturnal and a physical feature that we
can see act lee now that I think about it,
tuataras have no external ear canals like lizards do. Well.
Rick So, when an animal's existence is traced back to
prehistoric times the age of dinosaurs, does it actually mean
that the tuatara may have lived among the dinosaurs or
(03:16):
does that mean that the reptile evolved from an animal
that was actually living among the dinosaurs. Well, that's a
really good way to look at ebony, and sometimes it
does mean that a species alive today evolved from an
ancestor that lived during the dinosaur time. But in the
case of the tuatara, they are indeed the only surviving
member of a distinctive reptilian order that lived alongside the dinosaurs. Wow,
(03:43):
the tuataras ancient lineage is just one of the things
that makes the reptile unique. There's also the fact that
the tatara is born with a third eye. Rick, this
sounds supernatural. What can you tell us about their eye?
I know, Ebony right, it does sound a little supernatural
(04:03):
at first, maybe even a little creepy for some people.
But believe it or not, there are other species with
this third eye, also known as a parietal eye. Other
species that have this include some sharks, lamp rays, even
real true lizards, frogs, and salamanders. Now, in the case
of the tuatara, it is only visible in the hatchlings
for the first few months of life, then in time
(04:25):
it is covered with a scale and pigments. But get this,
the third eye does have an actual retina, lens and
nerve endings, yet it is not used for seeing like
a traditional eye. So we know this I is sensitive
to light and may even help the tuatara judge the
time of day, and it is probably important to their
body circadian rhythm and seasonal cycles. That's amazing. We've established
(04:51):
that the tuatara is found only in New Zealand. The
island is known for being mountainous with cities and forests
where my someone's spot one of these third eyed reptiles
hold on ebony. I don't want people to think there
are three eyed lizard like reptiles roaming around. And remember
the third eye is covered after a few months of age,
(05:13):
so they still look a lot like the two eyed
reptiles that were accustomed to seeing. Well, that's got exactly right.
I just want to make sure we're clear on that now.
As far as the location, yes, you're right. The tuatara
is only found in New Zealand and more specifically on
the islands off the northern coast of North Island and
some islands in the Marlborough Sounds. They inhabit coastal forest
and clearings using sort of burrows for shelter, and they
(05:36):
can dig their own burrows, but they will also take
advantage of abandoned burrows from other animals like seabirds that
also nest in burrows that live in reside on those
islands as well. Oh and get this, some studies have
shown that the tuatara will move into a burrow that
is in use by a bird, but the bird will
allow the tutor to do this. This then gives a
(05:56):
tutor the benefit of using the warmth of the bird,
sometimes referred to as being a heat thief. So what
do the two autaras eat? For the most part, they
consume invertebrates or insects. Beetles are high on the list
of most consumed foods, but millipedes, spiders, and worms are
also on their menu. They have been known to eat lizards, birds,
(06:18):
and bird eggs at times too, but because their preferred
food is active at night, adult tuataras are active at
that time as well. Now get this, Young tuataras are
usually hunting for their food during the day to keep
away from the adults because adult tuataras will try to
eat them. So that sounds like a smart move exactly.
So rats are considered the most serious threat to the
(06:39):
survival of the two atara. How have rats impacted tatara populations? Yeah? Unfortunately,
I mean it is true. Rats are a big problem
for the tuataras, because rats can easily stow away on boats,
allowing them to reach these islands that would otherwise be
left undisturbed without rat populations at all and on. Fortunately,
(07:00):
the rats are very good at finding tuatara nests and
eating the eggs. In fact, they will also prey upon
the young tuataras as well. This kind of introduced predation
that significantly impacts the ability for tuataras to create and
maintain healthy new generations, and of course this then leads
to population declims. Just ahead, we'll have more interesting facts
(07:21):
about this one of a kind reptile. But first this
now it's time for the San Diego Zoom Minute, an
opportunity for you to learn what's new at the Zoo.
A new study has found contaminants that were banned decades
ago are still impacting critically endangered California condors. The research,
(07:44):
led by San Diego State University and San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Alliance scientists in collaboration with other partners, found the
condors maybe at increased risk for reproductive impairment because they
consume dead marine mammals along the California coast. California condors
were nearly extinct a few decades ago, and their population
has been slowly recovering thanks to extensive breeding and reintroduction efforts.
(08:07):
The research highlights the value of Baja California, Mexico has
a reintroduction site for the condors. Did you know the
name to a tara comes from the Maori word for
peaks on the back. Two a taras have spiny crest
along their backs, made from soft, triangular folds of skin.
These spines are more prominent in males, who can raise
(08:29):
them during territorial or courtship displays. We're talking about the
two atara, also referred to as a living dinosaur. Kim
Gray is the curator of herpetology and ichpeology with the
(08:49):
San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. She's here now to tell
us more about this unique animal. Welcome Kim, Hi, Nice
see you. Nice to see you as well. Can you
talk to us about your experience working with the tuatara? Sure? Well,
I've actually had the pleasure of working for our organization
for almost twenty five years now and we've had them
(09:11):
this entire time. So when I first joined our organization,
they were just little bitty guys. We had got them
in as part of an assurance population planning program to
see if we could learn as much as we can
about how to rear them in managed habitat which could
help influence and make decisions for the wild populations, and
how we might be able to help contribute to saving
(09:33):
them in the wild. So I've had the opportunity to
watch them grow up. So they were about four years
old when I joined, so they're about thirty years old now,
and they only become sexually mature around fifteen years of age.
So we'll get into more of that, but it's nice
to be able to watch them grow up. So is
there anything in particular about the tuatara that makes caring
(09:55):
for them so unique? Well, I have to tell you.
So when we first see them, we actually try to
think about did we need to actually reverse day and
night to match that in New Zealand because obviously we're
on the other side of the planet and so we
have reverse night cycles. But we did some more research
and we decided that wasn't necessary and our climate in
(10:16):
certain areas can be pretty similar. But we wanted to
make sure that we know that reptiles in particular likely
to at our need a lot of UV light for
strong bones, and so in the area that we have
them in the building that we have them in, we
actually designed a roof that moves, so it's a little
bit like a garage door. It opens up to allow
natural light and night, natural air temperatures and sunlight to
(10:39):
come in. So those are some unique ways that we
tried to meet the needs of the animals to allow
them to have natural UV lighting with this unique roof system.
So what was the answer, did you have to reverse
day and night? No, And that was part of it
because we wanted to be able to retract the roof
to allow natural sunlight. Obviously that wouldn't be possible, so
(11:00):
we learned pretty quick that that wouldn't be necessary. And
since we got them at such a young age, they
adapted to our cycles. But it would be definitely something
to think about if we ever were going to rewild
these animals and put them back, we'd have to almost
give them an opportunity, just like we deal with jet
leg to give them a little bit of a photo
period change to be matching that in New Zealand. And
(11:21):
how about mating. The tuatara are said to have really
long incubation periods. Males can reproduce every year, but females
generally breed every two to five years. How does this
impact the population size? Sure, that's a great question because
(11:41):
for conservationists you have to be planning so far in
the future. For example, like we've had them at our
organization for thirty years, had the privilege of working with them.
They don't become sexually mature until they're about fifteen years
of age. That's a long time when you're thinking of
conservation efforts. So this species, we don't know a lot
about them, but we know they've been around a long time.
(12:03):
We know they prefer cooler temperatures, and so their metabolism
is slow, their sort of life cycle is slow. They
don't become sexually mature until their fifteen There's a lot
that we're still learning about them, but males and females,
we believe we start seeing mating behaviors starting around that
late teenage years there. In speaking of mating, the male
(12:25):
to atara works very hard for an opportunity to mate.
A male can fan out his spine to attract a
female and it kind of puts me in the mind
of a peacock. But then I wonder, because I'm always
rooting for the underdog, what happens if a male to
a tara is unsuccessful at attracting a mate. That's a
(12:46):
really good question, I think. Obviously they're long lived, so
maybe hopefully they'll have a second chance in the following
years to come. It's kind of unique. So their spines,
their crest on their back is not sharp, their skin
is actually very soft. It feels almost like more like
a toadskin. And what they're able to do is they inflate,
so when they see another male, they puff themselves up,
(13:07):
and that crest on their backs stands up to make
themselves look bigger, and they puff out their throats and
they do a little head bob dance. And then that's
actually attractive to the females as well. So it serves
two purposes. One it's to make them more attractive to
the females, and the other is to deter other males.
Usually it's the bigger, stronger, better dancers, so to speak,
that get the girls. So maybe they just need more
(13:29):
years of practice. Yes, and you mentioned tuataras have been
documented to live up to a hundred years. Yeah, we're
not even sure there's a couple of estimates of one
male that might have been about a hundred and forty
five years old, but nobody kept records really clearly back then,
and we didn't have pit tags and the techniques with genetics, like,
(13:49):
we didn't have any of that back then, so we
were estimating could be up to a hundred and fifty
years old. So when a reptile can survive a hundred
plus years is there any working theories out there as
to why, Yeah, very good question. It's kind of stumps
me as well. The only thing we can kind of
contribute some of these factors too. Again we talked about
(14:10):
is like typically a mammal would hibernate. We call it
broomation in reptiles and amphibians, So they take the winter
months off, so they're resting, they're not exerting a lot
of energy, their systems kind of shut down, so it's
almost like they're in refrigeration mode, right, And we have
seen that in some other species that live in the Arctic,
just in those really cold temperatures, you're almost like living
(14:30):
in a refrigerator and slowing yourselves and your metabolism down.
I believe some whale species can live to be like
two three years old, and we had no idea that
that was even possible. I think there might be something
to do with just taking a few months off. We
need longer vacations as humans will live longer. I vote
for that. Like some lizards, a tuatara can regrow a
(14:54):
lost hell. Are there any theories about why some reptiles
have the capabilit city of regeneration while other animals, like
us humans can't. Sure. That's another great question and it's
fascinating to me because if you think about it, the
tutor is a very ancient species, so it's been around longer,
and we do blump it in with lizard species even
(15:16):
though it's a little bit different, and that tells us
that this ability to lose the tail and regrow it
is very ancient, and so lizard species that are more modern,
not all of them have that ability. So for example,
uh prehensile tailed skink the name it uses its tail
like a monkey. It doesn't lose its tail. It's lost
that ability. So what we understand is this trait has
(15:38):
probably been around a millennia to help deter predators so
when they're really scared or predators attacking them, their tail
tip will sort of like automatically detach and it keeps wiggling.
So the idea is that the predators after this quick,
easy meal, it distracts it from the main body and
then the twoutar can regrow it and it we grow
(16:00):
the bones within the tail. It's more like a cartilage material,
but it still is able to regrow its tail, and
then it can do that a number of times. Yeah,
pretty amazing. So the tuatara is endemic to New Zealand,
so there's not any in our backyard. But is there
anything that people can do to better co exists with
the tuatara and other reptiles and just be better neighbors?
(16:24):
Sure well, certainly supporting us in our colleagues and even
in within New Zealand they have breeding populations there, So
the Auckland Zoo for example, does a lot of amazing
work with them. But I think it's just being more
aware of our footprint and when we travel if you
get the chance to go their support conservation initiatives and
visiting islands that might have them there, and supporting local
(16:47):
conservation local communities that support their work. But even to
just being aware like where we travel in the world,
we bring pests and parasites in those in basive species
we inadvertently do it, but thes and the cats and
the things like that do take a toll on native wildlife.
So just being aware of that, I think it's very helpful.
And speaking of traveling, is it actor that they're kind
(17:10):
of like culturally revered where they're from in New Zealand, right,
So it's hard to put a term on that, but
it's basically their ancestral heritage and so um, it's really
strong family ties and really revere, like you said, just
respect that species. It's like a totem species. It's like
their ancestors. So they have a great deal of respect
(17:31):
for this species and the land that it lived on
and still does historically. So yeah, it's just it boils
down to being respectful of the species as they are
looked at like a family member. So more mythologically, I've
heard the tutara being compared to a mini dragon. Having
worked with them, can you understand where that comparison has
(17:53):
kind of come up over the years, certainly, and especially
just how danis or like they are their little fee
and as I mentioned, their skin feels like a toad.
It's a different kind of scalation than with your other
typical reptiles. And their eyes are just really everything about
them is unique, but especially their teeth. So their teeth
aren't similar to reptiles in shape, however, they're part of
(18:16):
their actual bone of their jaw, and they're just everything
about them is ancient looking. Yeah, you can imagine when
you get a chance to look at one, it just
it looks like how you would imagine a dragon or
a dinosaur. Yeah, awesome. So, as we've mentioned that Tuatara
is endemic native to New Zealand, what has it been
(18:39):
like for you to have an opportunity to work with
so many different species from all over the world. It's
been wonderful and I have to say it makes the
world feel much smaller getting the chance to meet colleagues
who become your friends doing conservation work, and even though
it's so very far away, it feels a lot closer
(18:59):
and just makes it feel like we're part of a
global community and we are all making a difference. And
even if you never get the chance to go to
New Zealand, just by visiting us at the San Diego Zoo,
you're making an impact in helping this global community of
conservationists doing what we can to save wildlife. It's pretty amazing.
We've been talking with Kim Gray, curator of herpetology and
(19:23):
ichnology with the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. Thank you,
thank you, thanks for listening. We hope you learned a
lot about New Zealand's largest reptile, the two Tara. Be
sure to subscribe and tune into next week's episode, in
which we bring to the story of a critically endangered
frog species that prefers mountain streams over anything else. I'm
(19:49):
Abymone and I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening. If you
would like to find out more about San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Alliance, please visit sdz w A dot org. A
me Seeing Wildlife is a production of I Heart Radio.
Our producer is Nikia Swinton and our executive producer is
Marcy to Peanut. Our audio engineer and editor is Sierra Spreen.
(20:10):
For more shows from My Heart Radio, check out the
I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Ebony Money and I'm Rick Schwartz. Welcome to
Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from
around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast
is a production of My Heart Radio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Reliance in international nonprofit conservation organization buying the
San Diego Zoo and Safari Park. This next animal is
(00:27):
truly one of a kind. It's found only in New
Zealand and it holds the title of the island's largest reptile.
It's the two atara. The tuataras closest relatives, are an
extinct group of reptiles that date back to a time
when dinosaurs first roamed the earth. That's why some people
(00:47):
call two ataras living fossils. In the world of science,
they are considered among the most unique wildlife in the
entire world. Rick, I hadn't heard of the tuatara, but
when I pulled up a picture, I thought, oh, it's
a lizard. The tuatara. It looks like a large lizard.
More specifically, it looks like an iguana, similar to the
(01:09):
iguanas we've highlighted and past conversations. But one of the
first things I read was that the tuatara is not
a lizard. So Rick, what makes a lizard and why
is the tuatara not considered a lizard? Well, okay, have
any We're about to leap into one of the more
fascinating reptiles that I have ever had the pleasure of
(01:30):
meeting or learning about. And yes, although the tuatara looks
very much like a lizard, I mean, it walks on
all fours, it has a tail. It even has a
crest of spiky scales called spines down the center of
its back to its tail. Some people even say they
remind them of lizards in the iguana family just by
the way they look. But when we take a closer
(01:51):
look at the taxonomy or the details of bone structure
and other anatomical structures, it becomes apparent that the species
does not fit into the other lizards scientific families. In fact,
it is unique enough that the tuatara is in a
completely different scientific order known as ryan co Cephilia. This
scientific order of reptiles once had over twenty different species
(02:13):
living during the Mesozoic era. This makes the tuatara the
last species of a prehistoric reptile that thrived in the
age of dinosaurs. And to answer your question, Ebony about
what sets them apart from lizards. Well, some of the
less obvious but possibly most telling reasons the tuatara is
not a lizard are internal There are several bones structures
(02:34):
that the tuatara has that are not shared with other lizards,
and without going into too much detail, it also has
to do with the way the tuatara's teeth are connected
to the jaw and when we look at some of
their behaviors, while we also can see how different they
are from other lizards. For example, tuataras actually enjoy cooler
weather while most lizard species like it warm and unlike lizards,
(02:56):
to autaras are nocturnal and a physical feature that we
can see act lee now that I think about it,
tuataras have no external ear canals like lizards do. Well.
Rick So, when an animal's existence is traced back to
prehistoric times the age of dinosaurs, does it actually mean
that the tuatara may have lived among the dinosaurs or
(03:16):
does that mean that the reptile evolved from an animal
that was actually living among the dinosaurs. Well, that's a
really good way to look at ebony, and sometimes it
does mean that a species alive today evolved from an
ancestor that lived during the dinosaur time. But in the
case of the tuatara, they are indeed the only surviving
member of a distinctive reptilian order that lived alongside the dinosaurs. Wow,
(03:43):
the tuataras ancient lineage is just one of the things
that makes the reptile unique. There's also the fact that
the tatara is born with a third eye. Rick, this
sounds supernatural. What can you tell us about their eye?
I know, Ebony right, it does sound a little supernatural
(04:03):
at first, maybe even a little creepy for some people.
But believe it or not, there are other species with
this third eye, also known as a parietal eye. Other
species that have this include some sharks, lamp rays, even
real true lizards, frogs, and salamanders. Now, in the case
of the tuatara, it is only visible in the hatchlings
for the first few months of life, then in time
(04:25):
it is covered with a scale and pigments. But get this,
the third eye does have an actual retina, lens and
nerve endings, yet it is not used for seeing like
a traditional eye. So we know this I is sensitive
to light and may even help the tuatara judge the
time of day, and it is probably important to their
body circadian rhythm and seasonal cycles. That's amazing. We've established
(04:51):
that the tuatara is found only in New Zealand. The
island is known for being mountainous with cities and forests
where my someone's spot one of these third eyed reptiles
hold on ebony. I don't want people to think there
are three eyed lizard like reptiles roaming around. And remember
the third eye is covered after a few months of age,
(05:13):
so they still look a lot like the two eyed
reptiles that were accustomed to seeing. Well, that's got exactly right.
I just want to make sure we're clear on that now.
As far as the location, yes, you're right. The tuatara
is only found in New Zealand and more specifically on
the islands off the northern coast of North Island and
some islands in the Marlborough Sounds. They inhabit coastal forest
and clearings using sort of burrows for shelter, and they
(05:36):
can dig their own burrows, but they will also take
advantage of abandoned burrows from other animals like seabirds that
also nest in burrows that live in reside on those
islands as well. Oh and get this, some studies have
shown that the tuatara will move into a burrow that
is in use by a bird, but the bird will
allow the tutor to do this. This then gives a
(05:56):
tutor the benefit of using the warmth of the bird,
sometimes referred to as being a heat thief. So what
do the two autaras eat? For the most part, they
consume invertebrates or insects. Beetles are high on the list
of most consumed foods, but millipedes, spiders, and worms are
also on their menu. They have been known to eat lizards, birds,
(06:18):
and bird eggs at times too, but because their preferred
food is active at night, adult tuataras are active at
that time as well. Now get this, Young tuataras are
usually hunting for their food during the day to keep
away from the adults because adult tuataras will try to
eat them. So that sounds like a smart move exactly.
So rats are considered the most serious threat to the
(06:39):
survival of the two atara. How have rats impacted tatara populations? Yeah? Unfortunately,
I mean it is true. Rats are a big problem
for the tuataras, because rats can easily stow away on boats,
allowing them to reach these islands that would otherwise be
left undisturbed without rat populations at all and on. Fortunately,
(07:00):
the rats are very good at finding tuatara nests and
eating the eggs. In fact, they will also prey upon
the young tuataras as well. This kind of introduced predation
that significantly impacts the ability for tuataras to create and
maintain healthy new generations, and of course this then leads
to population declims. Just ahead, we'll have more interesting facts
(07:21):
about this one of a kind reptile. But first this
now it's time for the San Diego Zoom Minute, an
opportunity for you to learn what's new at the Zoo.
A new study has found contaminants that were banned decades
ago are still impacting critically endangered California condors. The research,
(07:44):
led by San Diego State University and San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Alliance scientists in collaboration with other partners, found the
condors maybe at increased risk for reproductive impairment because they
consume dead marine mammals along the California coast. California condors
were nearly extinct a few decades ago, and their population
has been slowly recovering thanks to extensive breeding and reintroduction efforts.
(08:07):
The research highlights the value of Baja California, Mexico has
a reintroduction site for the condors. Did you know the
name to a tara comes from the Maori word for
peaks on the back. Two a taras have spiny crest
along their backs, made from soft, triangular folds of skin.
These spines are more prominent in males, who can raise
(08:29):
them during territorial or courtship displays. We're talking about the
two atara, also referred to as a living dinosaur. Kim
Gray is the curator of herpetology and ichpeology with the
(08:49):
San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. She's here now to tell
us more about this unique animal. Welcome Kim, Hi, Nice
see you. Nice to see you as well. Can you
talk to us about your experience working with the tuatara? Sure? Well,
I've actually had the pleasure of working for our organization
for almost twenty five years now and we've had them
(09:11):
this entire time. So when I first joined our organization,
they were just little bitty guys. We had got them
in as part of an assurance population planning program to
see if we could learn as much as we can
about how to rear them in managed habitat which could
help influence and make decisions for the wild populations, and
how we might be able to help contribute to saving
(09:33):
them in the wild. So I've had the opportunity to
watch them grow up. So they were about four years
old when I joined, so they're about thirty years old now,
and they only become sexually mature around fifteen years of age.
So we'll get into more of that, but it's nice
to be able to watch them grow up. So is
there anything in particular about the tuatara that makes caring
(09:55):
for them so unique? Well, I have to tell you.
So when we first see them, we actually try to
think about did we need to actually reverse day and
night to match that in New Zealand because obviously we're
on the other side of the planet and so we
have reverse night cycles. But we did some more research
and we decided that wasn't necessary and our climate in
(10:16):
certain areas can be pretty similar. But we wanted to
make sure that we know that reptiles in particular likely
to at our need a lot of UV light for
strong bones, and so in the area that we have
them in the building that we have them in, we
actually designed a roof that moves, so it's a little
bit like a garage door. It opens up to allow
natural light and night, natural air temperatures and sunlight to
(10:39):
come in. So those are some unique ways that we
tried to meet the needs of the animals to allow
them to have natural UV lighting with this unique roof system.
So what was the answer, did you have to reverse
day and night? No, And that was part of it
because we wanted to be able to retract the roof
to allow natural sunlight. Obviously that wouldn't be possible, so
(11:00):
we learned pretty quick that that wouldn't be necessary. And
since we got them at such a young age, they
adapted to our cycles. But it would be definitely something
to think about if we ever were going to rewild
these animals and put them back, we'd have to almost
give them an opportunity, just like we deal with jet
leg to give them a little bit of a photo
period change to be matching that in New Zealand. And
(11:21):
how about mating. The tuatara are said to have really
long incubation periods. Males can reproduce every year, but females
generally breed every two to five years. How does this
impact the population size? Sure, that's a great question because
(11:41):
for conservationists you have to be planning so far in
the future. For example, like we've had them at our
organization for thirty years, had the privilege of working with them.
They don't become sexually mature until they're about fifteen years
of age. That's a long time when you're thinking of
conservation efforts. So this species, we don't know a lot
about them, but we know they've been around a long time.
(12:03):
We know they prefer cooler temperatures, and so their metabolism
is slow, their sort of life cycle is slow. They
don't become sexually mature until their fifteen There's a lot
that we're still learning about them, but males and females,
we believe we start seeing mating behaviors starting around that
late teenage years there. In speaking of mating, the male
(12:25):
to atara works very hard for an opportunity to mate.
A male can fan out his spine to attract a
female and it kind of puts me in the mind
of a peacock. But then I wonder, because I'm always
rooting for the underdog, what happens if a male to
a tara is unsuccessful at attracting a mate. That's a
(12:46):
really good question, I think. Obviously they're long lived, so
maybe hopefully they'll have a second chance in the following
years to come. It's kind of unique. So their spines,
their crest on their back is not sharp, their skin
is actually very soft. It feels almost like more like
a toadskin. And what they're able to do is they inflate,
so when they see another male, they puff themselves up,
(13:07):
and that crest on their backs stands up to make
themselves look bigger, and they puff out their throats and
they do a little head bob dance. And then that's
actually attractive to the females as well. So it serves
two purposes. One it's to make them more attractive to
the females, and the other is to deter other males.
Usually it's the bigger, stronger, better dancers, so to speak,
that get the girls. So maybe they just need more
(13:29):
years of practice. Yes, and you mentioned tuataras have been
documented to live up to a hundred years. Yeah, we're
not even sure there's a couple of estimates of one
male that might have been about a hundred and forty
five years old, but nobody kept records really clearly back then,
and we didn't have pit tags and the techniques with genetics, like,
(13:49):
we didn't have any of that back then, so we
were estimating could be up to a hundred and fifty
years old. So when a reptile can survive a hundred
plus years is there any working theories out there as
to why, Yeah, very good question. It's kind of stumps
me as well. The only thing we can kind of
contribute some of these factors too. Again we talked about
(14:10):
is like typically a mammal would hibernate. We call it
broomation in reptiles and amphibians, So they take the winter
months off, so they're resting, they're not exerting a lot
of energy, their systems kind of shut down, so it's
almost like they're in refrigeration mode, right, And we have
seen that in some other species that live in the Arctic,
just in those really cold temperatures, you're almost like living
(14:30):
in a refrigerator and slowing yourselves and your metabolism down.
I believe some whale species can live to be like
two three years old, and we had no idea that
that was even possible. I think there might be something
to do with just taking a few months off. We
need longer vacations as humans will live longer. I vote
for that. Like some lizards, a tuatara can regrow a
(14:54):
lost hell. Are there any theories about why some reptiles
have the capabilit city of regeneration while other animals, like
us humans can't. Sure. That's another great question and it's
fascinating to me because if you think about it, the
tutor is a very ancient species, so it's been around longer,
and we do blump it in with lizard species even
(15:16):
though it's a little bit different, and that tells us
that this ability to lose the tail and regrow it
is very ancient, and so lizard species that are more modern,
not all of them have that ability. So for example,
uh prehensile tailed skink the name it uses its tail
like a monkey. It doesn't lose its tail. It's lost
that ability. So what we understand is this trait has
(15:38):
probably been around a millennia to help deter predators so
when they're really scared or predators attacking them, their tail
tip will sort of like automatically detach and it keeps wiggling.
So the idea is that the predators after this quick,
easy meal, it distracts it from the main body and
then the twoutar can regrow it and it we grow
(16:00):
the bones within the tail. It's more like a cartilage material,
but it still is able to regrow its tail, and
then it can do that a number of times. Yeah,
pretty amazing. So the tuatara is endemic to New Zealand,
so there's not any in our backyard. But is there
anything that people can do to better co exists with
the tuatara and other reptiles and just be better neighbors?
(16:24):
Sure well, certainly supporting us in our colleagues and even
in within New Zealand they have breeding populations there, So
the Auckland Zoo for example, does a lot of amazing
work with them. But I think it's just being more
aware of our footprint and when we travel if you
get the chance to go their support conservation initiatives and
visiting islands that might have them there, and supporting local
(16:47):
conservation local communities that support their work. But even to
just being aware like where we travel in the world,
we bring pests and parasites in those in basive species
we inadvertently do it, but thes and the cats and
the things like that do take a toll on native wildlife.
So just being aware of that, I think it's very helpful.
And speaking of traveling, is it actor that they're kind
(17:10):
of like culturally revered where they're from in New Zealand, right,
So it's hard to put a term on that, but
it's basically their ancestral heritage and so um, it's really
strong family ties and really revere, like you said, just
respect that species. It's like a totem species. It's like
their ancestors. So they have a great deal of respect
(17:31):
for this species and the land that it lived on
and still does historically. So yeah, it's just it boils
down to being respectful of the species as they are
looked at like a family member. So more mythologically, I've
heard the tutara being compared to a mini dragon. Having
worked with them, can you understand where that comparison has
(17:53):
kind of come up over the years, certainly, and especially
just how danis or like they are their little fee
and as I mentioned, their skin feels like a toad.
It's a different kind of scalation than with your other
typical reptiles. And their eyes are just really everything about
them is unique, but especially their teeth. So their teeth
aren't similar to reptiles in shape, however, they're part of
(18:16):
their actual bone of their jaw, and they're just everything
about them is ancient looking. Yeah, you can imagine when
you get a chance to look at one, it just
it looks like how you would imagine a dragon or
a dinosaur. Yeah, awesome. So, as we've mentioned that Tuatara
is endemic native to New Zealand, what has it been
(18:39):
like for you to have an opportunity to work with
so many different species from all over the world. It's
been wonderful and I have to say it makes the
world feel much smaller getting the chance to meet colleagues
who become your friends doing conservation work, and even though
it's so very far away, it feels a lot closer
(18:59):
and just makes it feel like we're part of a
global community and we are all making a difference. And
even if you never get the chance to go to
New Zealand, just by visiting us at the San Diego Zoo,
you're making an impact in helping this global community of
conservationists doing what we can to save wildlife. It's pretty amazing.
We've been talking with Kim Gray, curator of herpetology and
(19:23):
ichnology with the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. Thank you,
thank you, thanks for listening. We hope you learned a
lot about New Zealand's largest reptile, the two Tara. Be
sure to subscribe and tune into next week's episode, in
which we bring to the story of a critically endangered
frog species that prefers mountain streams over anything else. I'm
(19:49):
Abymone and I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening. If you
would like to find out more about San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Alliance, please visit sdz w A dot org. A
me Seeing Wildlife is a production of I Heart Radio.
Our producer is Nikia Swinton and our executive producer is
Marcy to Peanut. Our audio engineer and editor is Sierra Spreen.
(20:10):
For more shows from My Heart Radio, check out the
I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Rick Schwartz
Marco Wendt
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.