September 24, 2025 • 48 mins
Weeks after the violent murders of four University of Idaho students, investigators followed a trail of DNA evidence from Moscow to Pennsylvania. A midnight police stakeout tied a graduate student to the brutal stabbings. Now the question remains: will the victims’ families finally see justice in court?
America’s Crime Lab is a true crime podcast about how science solves cold cases, missing persons, and other unsolved cases. Hosted by journalist and clinical psychologist Elin Lantz Lesser, and powered by Othram’s forensic DNA lab, the show connects the science to the story, revealing what really happens in the lab and why it matters.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
We're not law enforcement. We're not lawyers, we're not prosecutors,
we're not.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
DNA experts.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
We're just mom and dad.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
We're just mom and dad. And all we could do
is trust this system. Well, you have no other choice.
I mean, you could spend a lot of energy being
really angry or caught up in the process, but there
there's nothing we could do. We just decided to make
(00:47):
sure that we were figuring out how to honor Ethan
and kind of bring his memory along with us.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
It's been weeks since four students were murdered in their
off campus house near the University of Idaho, and for
the first time, DNA from the crime scene is pointing
police to a possible suspect. This is America's crime Lab.
(01:24):
I'm Alan Lance Lesser. This is Part three of the
Idaho's Student Murder Case. If you missed the first two episodes,
please go back and listen. I'm here with producer Catherine
Fenalosa and Catherine. When we left off, authorm had traced
(01:48):
the suspects family to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah, it's just after Thanksgiving and the Moscow community is
still on edge. I mean, police haven't made an arrest. Meanwhile,
students are returning and break and they're terrified. I mean,
they're making sure their doors are locked, they're only venturing
out in groups. You can just feel a real sense
of panic. And in the middle of all of this fear,
(02:13):
the University of Idaho decides to hold a vigil to
honor the victims, Ethan, Xanna, Maddie, and Kayley, and they
hold it in the school's huge indoor football stadium. The
school feels it's important, you know, for them all to
come together to grieve, but police are worried that the
murder might actually show up and stage an attack at
(02:36):
this event.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Well yeah, I mean, I can see why the murderers
felt so random and so violent, and unless someone really
had a grudge against the group of friends living in
that house, it does feel like a totally senseless act, which,
in my opinion, is way scarier anyone could be the target.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Yeah, they have police stationed everywhere, They've got undercover agents
mixing in the crowd with the students. You have to
go through a metal detector to even enter the building,
and the families of Xana, Kaylee, Maddie, and Ethan speak
and it's just heartbreaking. I mean, They're on this big
stage and they're trying to say something meaningful, but they're
(03:22):
clearly in a state of shock. I mean, they honestly
don't know what to say. They're just struggling.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
And to do that publicly. I can't imagine how difficult
that is.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
And the families have also been planning funerals. This is
Ethan's mom, Stacy.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I remember our friend Kirk, he's the director of the
funeral home, and he was like, you guys might need
to do this at a high school or you know,
in a gym. And because the place we'd picked only
held like six hundred and Jim and I were like, well,
we really I don't even know if we know that
many people, I mean, you know, and we not the
(04:00):
memorial out of the park. It was thousands of people.
Jim had classmates show up that he hadn't seen since
high school. There were people that I'd worked with from
my very first job, and the entire fraternity showed up.
It was pretty amazing.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Authorities are holding two meetings a day so that everyone
on the investigation is on the same page, because you've
got a lot of agencies involved. There's the FBI, the
Moscow Police, the Idaho State Police, the state crime Lab,
and authroom. That's complicated, It's really complicated. And authorities are
tracking down the white Hyundai Lantra that was seen speeding
(04:45):
away from the King.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Roadhouse after the murders.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
Police of Canvas local stores for leads on anyone who's
bought a k bar knife, the knife you know they
believed was used in the killings. Now authoram has worked
around the clock to create a detailed DNA profile of
the suspect, his historical background, and possible family members, and
they hand all of that information, their leads off to
(05:12):
the FBI, and after weeks of frustration, Prosecutor Bill Thompson says,
the case starts to break wide open.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Well, the first lead that took us to the defendant
was a lead that was developed through the investigative genetic
genealogy process that started with AUTHORM laboratories from the DNA
that was found on the knife sheath, and then the
investigation proceeded into genealogy to try to identify somebody who
(05:43):
might be related to the person who was responsible for this.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
So we know the knife sheath is the big piece
of evidence, but did they find any other evidence in
the house.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
So it's interesting.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
It's a six bedroom house that is occupied by college
students who we know have parties over the summer. There
was a change over with the roommates. There are a
lot of people in and out of that house. So
prosecutors said, you know, this was not a crime scene
(06:17):
where you could go in and swipe a door knob
or a light switch or even like collect DNA off of.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Bed sheets the couch.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
You have so many people going in and out of
that house, so you're going to find a lot of
DNA from so many people that are just unrelated to
this crime, right. And it's tricky because the knife sheath
is really the only evidence at the crime scene with
(06:51):
the suspects DNA, and that was weighing heavily on Kristin
Middleman at Authrom.
Speaker 7 (06:58):
That made it a lot more risky to go ahead
and proceed with testing because if you consume that evidence,
that might be the only evidence from this crime scene
that will ever exist.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
The other thing that's interesting about the knife sheath is
that there's a leather strap at the top with a snap,
and that's what actually holds the knife in this holder. Now, Alen,
think about when you close a snap, you have to
like press down firmly with your thumb or finger, and
then when you open it, you're kind of flicking that
(07:32):
same thumb or finger against the snap and it you know,
it takes some effort to do and there's a lot
of contact between your thumb and the snap. In this case,
investigators didn't just have DNA, They actually had a lot
of it, and it was fresh. It hadn't you been
exposed to the elements, and it hadn't been sitting in
(07:54):
a police.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Locker for decades.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Because this was a recent crime, like really resent and
David Middleman at OUTHRAM says, that makes it kind of
different from working a cold case.
Speaker 8 (08:07):
This was some of the best quality DNA we'd ever seen.
The challenge was just doing this very carefully and very
quickly so we can get leads back to investigators as
soon as possible.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Now, if you remember, as Authram does the forensic genetic genealogy,
they start to see clues that the suspect has family
in Pennsylvania. Police also have a list of all the
owners of white Hyundai Elantra's in the region.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
The car seen speeding from the King roadhouse after the murders.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yeah, and so they're looking for Elantras with Pennsylvania connections,
and they actually find that there's a graduate student at
Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, which is less than
ten miles from Moscow where these murders happened, who had
originally registered their car on campus with Pennsylvania plates.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
He actually went and changed the registry on his car
from Pennsylvania, which only requires a rear license plate, to Washington,
which requires front and rear license plates.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
And that happened after the murders.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Yeah, just days after the murders.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
That is telling. It's interesting how it's a constellation of
pieces of evidence. It's not any one thing, it's everything
coming together. The DNA, the car, the change in license plate.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
And then the FBI calls a big meeting and all
of the key players are there, you know, the prosecutors,
Moscow police, State police. They've gone from you know, twenty
thousand plus tips and lists of suspects, where everybody's eventually
been cleared.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
They have twenty thousand tips to narrow down. That feels
nearly impossible.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Right, But in this meeting they suddenly learned that they
can narrow down the list of potential suspects and focus
on just one person. It's a guy named Brian Coberger
who is from Pennsylvania and Allen. He's a graduate student
in criminology at Washington State University.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And let me guess his car is a white Hyundai Alantra.
Speaker 9 (10:17):
I remember exactly that moment of hearing his name and
where he lived and what he drove and seeing his picture.
Our first reaction was disbelief, and it took a second
or to set in because it happened fairly quickly. I
don't think any of us were expecting an answer so quickly,
(10:42):
and so to get the answer, I wasn't expecting it.
So it was a shot.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Was he ever on a suspect list?
Speaker 9 (10:49):
No, never heard his name before, didn't know he existed
until that moment.
Speaker 10 (10:54):
Nomen Doug.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
Prosecutor Ashley Jennings wasn't the only person who was shocked.
Captain Dustin Blaker of the Moscow Police actually thought the
FBI was joking when they said Brian Coburger's name, because
all along detectives have been saying like, oh, come on,
just give us a name to investigate. And then when
they heard his name, detectives were like, okay, stop kidding around.
(11:18):
They couldn't believe that after so many dead ends, forensic
genetic genealogy actually worked.
Speaker 10 (11:28):
So once we got past the initial shock, it was excitement.
We had something.
Speaker 9 (11:35):
Now we had a direction to go, and then it
really did change things.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
For the first time. The entire investigative team sees a
picture of Brian Coburger and he looks just like how
Dylan the roommate described him, which is so remarkable.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
In what way.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So just after four.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Am on November thirteenth, when Dylan opened up her bedroom
door where she saw a man dressed in all black
with a black ski mask covering his face, and he
brushed right by her. The only part of his face
that she could see was his eyes, right you know,
She says, he looked right at me and he had
(12:17):
these really big, bushy eyebrows. And now investigators are staring
at a photo of Brian Coburger and alan he has
these distinctive, big, bushy eyebrows.
Speaker 10 (12:32):
We had an analyst with the FBI that went, Okay,
nobody go and start checking this guy's name online because
we don't know how smart he is. We don't know
if he has anything logged her in a computer system
somewhere that hey, someone's searching my name now. So it
was very hard for I know myself and some of
the other investigators to not do anything and actually go
(12:53):
home and try and sleep, which I didn't sleep very
well that night. I was too excited.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So the police and the FBI have a name, and
Police Captain Dustin Blaker can't sleep because he's excited to
finally have a solid lead. I don't blame him. This
is huge. So what happens the next day.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Well, they start looking through their records to see if
they've had any interaction with Brian Corberger, and it turns
out that a few months before the murders, he was
pulled over by Moscow police.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Our Sheriff's Department stopped his car for speeding. He got
a ticket for no seat belt, but we were able
then to identify him driving the car, confirmed that the
car was his, and at that time it was registered
still with his pencil plates, which includes just a rear
license plate.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Now authorities go to find Brian Coburger, but he's not
in Idaho and he's not in Pullman, Washington either.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
And followed his trail and located him in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
What we know now is that in December, right before
the DNA from the knife sheath is linked to Brian Coburger,
his father flew out to Washington State and the two
of them then drive across the country back to the
family home in Pennsylvania for the winter holidays in.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
The white Houndai Elantra.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
Yeah, in the white Hyundai Elantra. And on that trip,
Brian Coberger and his dad are pulled over twice in
Indiana for tailgating. Police recently released the bodycam footage of
the traffic stops, and in one of those videos, you
can see the officer approach the car and the window
(14:56):
is down, his dad is sitting in the passenger seat,
and you know they're just like having sort of a
friendly conversation with the officer. Brian, he doesn't seem nervous
at all.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
He's not agitated.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
He leans down like toward his dad so he can
see the officer directly through the window.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
He's like so calm, I'd get nervous being pulled over anytime.
The fact that it's possible he's just murdered four people
and still seem so calm. That's haunting or maybe says
something about him, But at this point police don't know
who they're talking to.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
No, And what's so wild is that during both those stops,
his dad actually mentions a fatal standoff at Washington State University,
where Brian is a grad student, that had just happened
the day before, totally unrelated to this crime. And his
dad tells the officers that he and his son were
just talking about that horrible scent. And now both of
(16:02):
these traffic stops he's let off with just a warning.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
They're so close.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
So when law enforcement can't find him in Washington or Idaho,
they start monitoring his parents' home in eastern Pennsylvania's in
the Poconos, and they learn that he has two sisters.
Now they can see that Brian Coberger and his dad
have returned from this cross country drive. They also start
to notice some odd behavior, so when Coburger exits the house,
(16:32):
he's usually wearing gloves, you know, like medical or latex gloves.
They can also see that he's parked his white Hondai
Lantra in the garage and Allen, they can see that
he's cleaning the car a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Cleaning the Oh god, he's just trying to hide any
evidence or maybe trying to keep his DNA from being
able to be taken by law enforcement.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Now, authorities are gathered a lot of other pieces of evidence,
and they get search warrants for his cell phone.
Speaker 10 (17:05):
And then as we started digging into his cell phone data,
we were able to determine that he had been in
that area twenty two or twenty three different times since
he moved here in June, near the King roadhouse.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Yeah, and that's between his cell phone pings and sightings
of his car, and authorities noticed something else really unusual.
So on the morning of the murders, his cell phone
pings a tower in Pullman, Washington, where Brian Koberger lives,
and that happens at two forty seven am, and then
it stops connecting with the network. It reconnects at four
(17:44):
forty eight am, but now it's south of Moscow. I
asked Captain Blaker about that, the fact.
Speaker 10 (17:51):
That he had turned his phone off that night, which
is very unusual nowadays for kids this age, they just
don't do that. That's unheard of, that they're going to
turn their phone off completely. And then it reactivated two
hours after the homicide south of Moscow in a very
rural area.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Prosecutor Ashley Jennings says they were able to trace his car.
Speaker 9 (18:15):
We were able to then accumulate video surveillance showing a
white Lantro which matched his Lantra, entering back into the
Pullman area, going towards where he resided.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
And then alen. His phone is also picked up near
the King Road house about five hours after the murders.
Authorities get search warrants for Coberger's financial records and they
spot some really unusual activity there too.
Speaker 6 (18:45):
Before the murders, used a shop for a regularly using
this debit card or credit card over here in Moscow,
and that stopped right after the homicides, and he was
shopping in Pullman or He's doing a lot of cash
transactions which was also suspicious to us and something that
a jury could use to infer another acknowledgment or concern
(19:07):
about his own guilt and trying to keep a low profile.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
They find a huge clue and it's pretty incriminating.
Speaker 9 (19:14):
And then we learn about the Amazon purchase and things
just start falling into place.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Looking at his purchases, detectives see that when Coberger was
still living in Pennsylvania. He bought an Amazon gift.
Speaker 9 (19:29):
Card and then immediately turned around and used the gift
card to purchase a kbar night sharpener and some vegan supplements,
And that all occurred before he even moved to the area.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
So maybe he thought that by buying the gift card
it would cover his tracks, but it actually shows that
there could be some premeditation.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Yeah, and like premeditation super far in advance.
Speaker 9 (19:55):
I think it led investigators to believe that he was
already in the process of trying to cover as tracks unsuccessfully.
But there would be no other purpose that we could
uncover as to why you would purchase a gift card
for yourself and then use the gift card to make
purchases for yourself and use the entire thing other than
(20:17):
you felt that that in some way would hide the
purchases that you made, and we know that after the murders,
he went back in to that Amazon account and researched
if there was a way to delete your purchase history.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
It's fascinating to me that once they had a name,
it seems like everything, all of this evidence reveals itself.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
It really does. But as they're closing in authorities want
more DNA this time they need a reference sample.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
Oh, I bet they do. I mean they need to
make sure they can connect DNA from family members in
this house in Pennsylvania to the person who left the
knife sheath in the bed next to Maddie and Kayley.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
And the last big piece of evidence before we were
able to file charges is when the FBI did what's
called a trash pull at his parents'.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
Residence a few days after Christmas. When the Coburgers put
their trash out for pickup, the FBI takes a few things.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
It always gets me that law enforcement can just go
through people's trash. Is that really legal in every state?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
So laws vary state by state, but basically yeah, I mean,
trash is considered abandoned property rather than private property once
you put it out for collection. In this case, authorities
arranged with the garbage company to pick up the Coburger's
trash and then hand it over to detectives. And as
they are looking through the bags, they find a Q
(21:52):
tip with ear wax on it.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
And that was sent to the lab for analysis.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Now, the Q tip is sent to the Idaho State Lab.
And this is actually really important we know that AUTHORAM
built a DNA profile and that along with police work
like investigating the car and the suspicious registration swich, that
all led authorities to Brian Coberger. But now they need
(22:17):
confirmation and I sort of think of it as like
double checking your work.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
That makes sense.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Instead of sending the Q tip to AUTHRAM, they test
it at the State Lab, so it's a different lab
using a different kind of DNA tests from AUTHORM to
see if they get the same answer. Basically, does the
DNA point to the same suspect.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
And the Idaho State Lab identified as being DNA from
the father of the person whose DNA was on the
knife sheath.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
We also know from earlier DNA testing of the knife
sheath that the DNA is from a mail and Brian
doesn't have a brother, He's only got sisters. So at
this point you have two forensic labs working completely independently
from one another and using two different methods, and they
both point to the same suspect, Brian Cooberger.
Speaker 6 (23:12):
The other thing about the DNA that was unique and
really important is it was sole source DNA from a male.
In other words, there was no mixture of DNA. It
wasn't something that maybe inadvertently his DNA had been on
somebody else's hand and then they transferred it to the sheath.
It wasn't that at all. It was a direct transfer
(23:34):
from the defendant to the snap on that sheath, and
that was powerful evidence. At that point, we believed we
had enough evidence to file charges, and that's when we
got the arrest warrant.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
Moscow Police Captain Dustin Blaker says, detectives are racing to
get to Pennsylvania with the arrest warrant.
Speaker 10 (24:18):
Luckily, we had a local business in this area who
has private jets that like take them. I'll give you
my jet, I'll pay for the fuel, I'll pay for everything,
and put our guys on the plane and send them
all the way to Pennsylvania that night. So it turned
around very quickly, and it was just excitement.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
On December thirtieth, a team of investigators and prosecutors are
gathered in a room at the Moscow Police Department and
they're watching a live feed from Pennsylvania where officers are
surveilling the coburger house. Prosecutor Bill Thompson says, it's shortly
after midnight.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
It appeared that everybody in the house was asleep, except
he was up. He was seen by one of the
surveillance officers in the kitchen area of the house and
then looked like maybe he'd gone down to the garage
area of the house, and about at that point they
gave the green light for the teams to enter the
(25:18):
residence and they apprehended him in the basement.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
WHOA, this is intense.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
He doesn't put up a fight. Five days later, Brian
Coberger is extradited back to Idaho and Moscow Police Captain
Dustin Blaker says, that's when they get a direct swab
of his DNA.
Speaker 10 (25:38):
Then we had a one positive match to our original
DNA sample off of the knife sheath.
Speaker 6 (25:44):
It's kind of hard to explain away your DNA being
on the knife sheath found by one of the victims
who had been stabbed to death with a knife that
would have fit in that sheath.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
Prosecutor Ashley Jennings says, it all came down to forensic
genetic geology.
Speaker 9 (26:01):
Do I think we would have eventually gotten to Brian
coworger Yes, I do, but it absolutely would not have
occurred so quickly, And I can't even begin to estimate
how long it would have taken investigators to get to
his name. But for the work of the genetic genealogist.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
We now had him in custody. We now had an
active criminal case. And that's where things start to pick
up substantially for our office handling the court aspects of
the prosecution.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
Detectives and prosecutors are pulling all of the other evidence together.
They search his apartment and his parents home, and in
the process we learn a lot more about who Brian
Coberger is.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
I have so many questions I know so.
Speaker 5 (26:56):
He grew up in Pennsylvania. Both his parents worked for
the local school district. His mom was a teacher's aide
and his dad was a maintenance worker. He has two sisters.
He was bullied a bit growing up, and he posted
to various online sites about feeling depressed and having some
suicidal tendencies. When he was sixteen, he posted, I feel
(27:21):
like an organic sack of meat with no self worth.
As I hug my family, I look into their faces,
I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video game.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
But less.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
He says he basically saw his life as a video
game where he could do whatever he wanted. With little remorse.
Coburger also apparently started to suffer from visual snow around
this time, where he complained his vision was fuzzy and
friends of his said it really bothered him. He graduated
(27:59):
high schoo in twenty thirteen, and around this time he
starts using heroin. Later on, he gets clean and he
studies criminology in college. He tells a friend he wants
to find a job either catching violent criminals or maybe
counseling them.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Wow, that's just so ironic considering what's to come.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
While he's getting his master's degree, he actually studies under
an expert on serial killers. She's written books called The
Mind of a Murderer and How to Catch a Killer.
As part of his master's degree, he designs a survey
where he asks X cons about their crimes.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
It's like he's researching how to commit a crime.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
He asks detailed questions like before making your move, how
did you approach the victim or target? After committing the crime,
what were you thinking and feeling? Why did you do
you choose that victim or target over others?
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Oh my god, that is so terrifying.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
I mean it's hard not to feel like he's methodically researching.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
This, I mean presumably spending all of his time studying criminology,
understanding it, going into graduate school for it. Then got
to this kind of impressive place of studying and researching
with this famous expert on serial killers, like he clearly
(29:33):
is working so hard to get close to this topic.
You're right, there is this calculated potentially for years and
years trying to get closer to this and being drawn
to this as a thing in his life.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
We also learned that the same day that authorities first
learn Brian Coberger's name, he's fired from his position as
a teaching assistant at Washington State University.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Oh what happened?
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Well, there are a number of complaints against him. In
the weeks surrounding the murders, he gets into some kind
of disagreement with a professor twice. He's also known for
getting into heated arguments in class, especially with female students.
Several women complained that he was making them feel uncomfortable.
(30:21):
One woman actually says Brian Coberger followed her to her car.
Now Allen in the murder investigation, there was also some
concern that Kaylee had a stalker. In one of Dylan's interviews,
with police. She mentions that Kaylee had been at a
grocery store and noticed some guy following her in the store,
(30:42):
and then when she goes out to her car, that
same guy is standing next to her car.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Kayleie also said she thought she.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Was being watched when she took her dog outside at
night to pee. Now police looked into it and basically
they couldn't prove that she had a stalker.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yeah, but it's eerie to know that Coburger was making
female students feel uncomfortable and following at least one of them.
It does make me wonder if he was doing that
to Kaylee too well.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
And remember, early on police said they believed it was
a targeted attack, even though they didn't know who did
it or why. And I asked Prosecutor Bill Thompson what
he thought.
Speaker 6 (31:23):
I don't want to speak for the police department itself
on that. I know that Ashley and I looking at
the scene, looking at the nature of the attacks and
the injuries, looking also at the activities of everybody and
what we believe likely happened at the house. We thought
it most likely that the murderer entered the house intending
(31:43):
to attack at least one of the residents of the house,
as opposed to a random and grab somebody off the street.
This was targeted on this particular residence.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
And what makes him feel that way.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Well, they're pretty sure that Coburger entered through that sliding
glass door on the second floor, you know, the one
off the kitchen. Now, there are two bedrooms on that floor,
Dylan's and Xana's, but he doesn't go to either of
those rooms. Instead, he enters and goes upstairs to the
third floor, where Kaylee and Mattie's bedrooms are.
Speaker 6 (32:18):
The nature of the injury suggested that Maddy was likely
attacked first and Kaylee was attacked immediately afterwards.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Now we know Xana got food delivered from Jack in
the Box, and based on crime scene photos, we can
see that she eats some of it French fries, and
then she leaves it in the kitchen. So maybe she
hears some commotion on the third floor and goes to investigate,
because remember Dylan says she hears someone say someone's here,
(32:48):
and then she hears someone run down the stairs.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
So maybe she was hearing Xana. So Xana hears noises,
leaves her food behind on the second floor to investigate.
She's the one who says, so one's here, and then
Xanna runs back downstairs again.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Yeah, and maybe Brian Coberger leaves Maddie's bedroom on the
third floor and confronts Xanna on the second floor.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
And we believe that that led to him pursuing Xana
to her room and killing her in Heathen.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
She had defensive wounds, so she was awake and encountered him,
maybe in a hallway.
Speaker 6 (33:25):
Yes, we think that that is likely what happened. And
she did, she had defenses wounds. She did fight.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Back, and that's when Dylan opens her door and looks right.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
At the suspect.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
And now he's murdered four people. Maybe that's more than
he'd intended. And he's also been in the house for
sixteen minutes. Maybe he panics, Maybe he just realizes he
needs to get out of there.
Speaker 5 (33:53):
Coburger is charged with four counts of murder and one
count of burglary. At his arraynment, he just stands there, silent.
He won't say anything, So the court enters a plea
of not guilty on his behalf, and prosecutors Bill Thompson
and Ashley Jennings prepare for a trial Brian Coberger's defense
team fights everything the evidence the DNA, literally everything.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
They tried to assert that there was a legally protected
interest in the DNA that was abandoned on the sheath.
That's contrary to what the law says. They questioned the
process of using the investigative genetic genealogy. We were confident
from the beginning that the genetic genealogy was solid, and
(34:39):
the courts agreed with us. But that was a major battle.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
The judge rules that the DNA evidence can be admitted
in court, and then Coberger's team tries kind of a
hail Mary.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
They wanted to point the finger at other people as
being responsible for this, to try to point the finger
at innocent third parties and try to argue that one
of these other people might have somehow been responsible for
the murders.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
There's also the gag order, remember Allen. The judge bars
everyone involved in the case from speaking publicly about it,
and that just created NonStop conspiracy theories and speculation, and
Kristin Middelman says it was incredibly frustrating and damaging to
the truth.
Speaker 11 (35:24):
The people that made themselves experts in this case were
people that had not worked the case that may know
a little bit of this type of DNA testing, And
they went on every news show they could get on,
on every talk show, they could get on every podcast
out there, and talked and talked in detail about how
(35:45):
this case was solved. They were completely wrong.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
And it skews the public's understanding of what actually happened.
Speaker 5 (35:53):
And so a few days later, the defense team reaches
out to the prosecutors.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
We were contacted by the defense with a question as
to whether we wanted to make a plea offer, and
we listened to what they had to say, and our
meat response is, well, what is the defendant willing to do?
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Prosecutors call a meeting with the victims' families, and Stacy Chapin,
Ethan's mom, says it was actually just a routine check in.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
You never think that you're a family that's going to
be in this position. But every book I've ever read,
or murder show you've ever watched, it talks about the
death penalty versus a plea deal. I mean, I don't
know if you've never done it. I don't think you
have a preconceived notion about how it's really going to
go down. You're just like, my god, how are we
(36:42):
going to do this? My biggest worry was prepping Mazie
and Hunter to potentially have to testify, and I am
thinking to myself, I do not know how I'm going
to get that girl on a stand.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Ethan's siblings, Hunter and Mazie. I mean, they've been through
utter hell and their grief is still so raw. Said
they testify if it was absolutely necessary, but they're just shattered.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I mean, good luck everybody, because I mean that was
what I was most concerned about. So no, thank you.
I was like, yeah, we're all for life without Pearl.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
But not everyone felt the same way.
Speaker 6 (37:24):
Not surprisingly, there was a split of opinion among the
various families and family members, with some folks saying we
want this over with, we want closure, we want him
to be gone forever. We don't want to have decades
of appeals, and others saying no, we think that you
need to continue to pursue the death penalty, even if
(37:46):
it takes decades. So we the attorney team, took all
that input and sat down among ourselves and weighed the
pros and cons of various options, and we decided that
we would tell the defense that if the defendant wished
to avoid trial. There was only one option that was
(38:09):
for him to plead guilty as charged to all five
counts and to waive appeals so that the case would
be final, and we let them know that we were
going to be looking for fixed life sentences to run consecutively.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Brian Koberger agreed to those conditions, and just a few
months ago, in July of twenty twenty five, he changed
his plea to guilty. At the sentencing, family members and
friends of the victim spoke to a packed courthouse. It
was streamed live online and I watched it as it
was happening, and Allen, it was surreal. I mean, this
(38:48):
might kind of sound strange, but after spending so much
time researching this case, to see these family members stand
there just deep in their grief and have to relay
the worst moments of their lives and do it in
front of Brian Coburger, it was just sobering and there
was a range of emotions. I want to play you
(39:11):
some of what people had to say that day. This
is Dylan talking one of the surviving roommates. She was
so overcome that she asked to sit in a chair
at the prosecutor's table. Ashley Jenning stood up and gave
her seat to Dylan, and as Dylan spoke, Bill Thompson,
the other prosecutor, he actually turns his back to block
(39:35):
Dylan's view of Coburger. Here's Dylan, what happened that night
changed everything. I made escape plans everywhere I went. If
something happens, how do I get out? What can I
use to defend myself? I can't think.
Speaker 12 (39:57):
I can't stop shaking. You say I'm a survivor, but
I don't see what my new reality looks like. They
don't see the panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the
way I scan every room I enter, the way I flinch,
(40:18):
it sudden sounds. They don't know how heavy it is
to carry so much pain and still be expected to
keep going. And that's because of him.
Speaker 5 (40:28):
One after another, mother's sisters, fathers, and uncles stood up
to speak. Some looked right at Coburger. Others never even
glanced at him. One family member actually turned his back
and spoke only to the family and friends gathered in
the courthouse. This is Mattie's stepfather, Scott Laramie. He talked
(40:51):
about Mattie's love of music and going to festivals with her.
Speaker 13 (40:55):
As for the defendant, we will not waste the words
we fall into hatred and bitterness. Evil has many faces,
and we now know this, but evil does not deserve
our time and attention. We are done being victims. We
(41:19):
are taking back our lives. We will turn our time, talents,
and attention to hope, healing and helping others and to
the future. We invite all those who have suffered with
us on this to join us in our journey. We
(41:41):
can make this world a better place. We can move
on from tragedy. Adversity will visit us, evil will visit us,
but we will overcome.
Speaker 5 (41:53):
Xana's aunt, Kim Carnoodles spoke about her.
Speaker 14 (41:57):
She was that fun I mean, high spirited, beautiful person
and I no longer get to get my nails done
with her, have lunch with her. Sorry, But how I
(42:19):
look at it now is this tragedy has brought us closer.
We're united now and we're stronger than ever. We have
family and friends now that we never knew we had.
And you know this is probably going to bother everybody,
(42:39):
but Brin, I'm here today to tell you I have
forgiven you because I no longer could live with that
hate in my heart and for me to become a
better person, I have forgiven you. And anytime you want
to talk and tell me what happened yet my number.
I'm here judgment because I do have questions that I
(43:03):
want you to answer, and I'm here. I'll be that
one that'll listen to you.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
Kaylee's sister Olivia looked directly at coburger.
Speaker 15 (43:15):
You wanted so badly to be different, to be special,
to be better, to be deep, to be mysterious. Lurking
in the shadows made you feel powerful because no one
ever paid you any attention. In the light, I will
call you what you are, sociopath, psychopath, murderer.
Speaker 5 (43:35):
Ethan Chapin's family decided not to attend. This is his
mom Stacy.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
We genuinely had nothing to say. I mean, what is
there to say? But that was ours and everybody heals differently.
There is no judgment on how anybody handled that situation,
but for us, there's an amazing Hunter didn't want to go.
We had a family meeting about it and they we
(44:01):
were just like, we're done, it's done. It's over this
The sentence was written into the plea and there was nothing.
Speaker 6 (44:08):
To say it was over.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
This is just such a good example of how people
respond to or heal from trauma so differently. Everybody's got
to find their own way of comprehending and processing what happened,
and they're allowed to. I don't think they should be
judged for that.
Speaker 5 (44:27):
The Chapin family did do something on their own, though.
One by one they each got a tattoo to remember Ethan, and.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Maisie was the first one, which surprised me. She just
came home one day and she was a little e
with wings.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
It's very cute.
Speaker 6 (44:43):
I called him eat dog.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
So I had that tattooed on my form, which was
a shock. I was never a tattoo guy, but I
just I got up one morning and I was driving
in into town and I could go right to work
or left to find someone that would do this for me,
and I went, I went left, and I came back
(45:06):
with it on.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Then I had to have one, so I went the
next day. But mine is actually from a note that
Ethan wrote me in his handwriting.
Speaker 9 (45:15):
You know.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
It was in some cute little card says I love
you mom.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
And Hunter got a c for the whole Chapin family.
Jim says that each have their own private ritual for
connecting with Ethan.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
I talked to Ethan every morning it's usually on my
way to work, and listened to his favorite country listen
to his favorite country song. He was a big Morgan
Wallen fan. Ye, and I know the songs when he
was around that he listened to. And I just play
that and talk to him on my way to work
every morning.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
That's beautiful. There's something that feels so important about remembering
someone across time through routine or just a moment here there,
and that connection through music that's so special.
Speaker 5 (46:17):
Brian Koberger is currently serving four consecutive life sentences without
the possibility of parole. There is relief that the murderer
was caught quickly after a six and a half week
manhunt and before he could hurt anyone else. But now
these families have to pick up the pieces and figure
(46:37):
out what life looks like without Ethan, Xanna, Maddie and Kaylee.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Yeah, picking up those pieces has got to feel impossible,
learning to live in what probably feels like a totally
new way, and I bet it hits them again and
again at unexpected times. But it really seems like with
these four young people who were so full of energy
and life, I mean, moving forward won't really be without them.
(47:08):
It's clear that in these families and friends, their memories
are still so vivid and so alive. Next time on
America's Crime Lab.
Speaker 16 (47:24):
Dispatch received a nine one one call from a neighbor.
When they answered the door, they found her in nothing
but a blood soaked T shirt.
Speaker 8 (47:33):
You know what, it looks like. There's another case in
another state that also has unknown DNA that is the same.
Speaker 16 (47:40):
You know, then, I'm really excited now we have a
potential suspect.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope.
Erica Lance is our story editor and sound design is
by David Woji. Our producing team is Catherine Fedalosa, Emily
Foreman and Jessica albert Our. Executive producers are Kate Osborne,
Mangesh Hadigadour and David and Kristin Middelman And from iHeart
(48:08):
Katrina Norville and Ali Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne,
Will Pearson, Kerrie Lieberman, Nikki Etour, Nathan Etowski, John Burbank
and the entire team at OUTHRM. I'm Alan lance Lessor.
Thanks for listening.
We're not law enforcement. We're not lawyers, we're not prosecutors,
we're not.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
DNA experts.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
We're just mom and dad.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
We're just mom and dad. And all we could do
is trust this system. Well, you have no other choice.
I mean, you could spend a lot of energy being
really angry or caught up in the process, but there
there's nothing we could do. We just decided to make
(00:47):
sure that we were figuring out how to honor Ethan
and kind of bring his memory along with us.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
It's been weeks since four students were murdered in their
off campus house near the University of Idaho, and for
the first time, DNA from the crime scene is pointing
police to a possible suspect. This is America's crime Lab.
(01:24):
I'm Alan Lance Lesser. This is Part three of the
Idaho's Student Murder Case. If you missed the first two episodes,
please go back and listen. I'm here with producer Catherine
Fenalosa and Catherine. When we left off, authorm had traced
(01:48):
the suspects family to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah, it's just after Thanksgiving and the Moscow community is
still on edge. I mean, police haven't made an arrest. Meanwhile,
students are returning and break and they're terrified. I mean,
they're making sure their doors are locked, they're only venturing
out in groups. You can just feel a real sense
of panic. And in the middle of all of this fear,
(02:13):
the University of Idaho decides to hold a vigil to
honor the victims, Ethan, Xanna, Maddie, and Kayley, and they
hold it in the school's huge indoor football stadium. The
school feels it's important, you know, for them all to
come together to grieve, but police are worried that the
murder might actually show up and stage an attack at
(02:36):
this event.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Well yeah, I mean, I can see why the murderers
felt so random and so violent, and unless someone really
had a grudge against the group of friends living in
that house, it does feel like a totally senseless act, which,
in my opinion, is way scarier anyone could be the target.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Yeah, they have police stationed everywhere, They've got undercover agents
mixing in the crowd with the students. You have to
go through a metal detector to even enter the building,
and the families of Xana, Kaylee, Maddie, and Ethan speak
and it's just heartbreaking. I mean, They're on this big
stage and they're trying to say something meaningful, but they're
(03:22):
clearly in a state of shock. I mean, they honestly
don't know what to say. They're just struggling.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
And to do that publicly. I can't imagine how difficult
that is.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
And the families have also been planning funerals. This is
Ethan's mom, Stacy.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I remember our friend Kirk, he's the director of the
funeral home, and he was like, you guys might need
to do this at a high school or you know,
in a gym. And because the place we'd picked only
held like six hundred and Jim and I were like, well,
we really I don't even know if we know that
many people, I mean, you know, and we not the
(04:00):
memorial out of the park. It was thousands of people.
Jim had classmates show up that he hadn't seen since
high school. There were people that I'd worked with from
my very first job, and the entire fraternity showed up.
It was pretty amazing.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Authorities are holding two meetings a day so that everyone
on the investigation is on the same page, because you've
got a lot of agencies involved. There's the FBI, the
Moscow Police, the Idaho State Police, the state crime Lab,
and authroom. That's complicated, It's really complicated. And authorities are
tracking down the white Hyundai Lantra that was seen speeding
(04:45):
away from the King.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Roadhouse after the murders.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
Police of Canvas local stores for leads on anyone who's
bought a k bar knife, the knife you know they
believed was used in the killings. Now authoram has worked
around the clock to create a detailed DNA profile of
the suspect, his historical background, and possible family members, and
they hand all of that information, their leads off to
(05:12):
the FBI, and after weeks of frustration, Prosecutor Bill Thompson says,
the case starts to break wide open.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Well, the first lead that took us to the defendant
was a lead that was developed through the investigative genetic
genealogy process that started with AUTHORM laboratories from the DNA
that was found on the knife sheath, and then the
investigation proceeded into genealogy to try to identify somebody who
(05:43):
might be related to the person who was responsible for this.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
So we know the knife sheath is the big piece
of evidence, but did they find any other evidence in
the house.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
So it's interesting.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
It's a six bedroom house that is occupied by college
students who we know have parties over the summer. There
was a change over with the roommates. There are a
lot of people in and out of that house. So
prosecutors said, you know, this was not a crime scene
(06:17):
where you could go in and swipe a door knob
or a light switch or even like collect DNA off of.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Bed sheets the couch.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
You have so many people going in and out of
that house, so you're going to find a lot of
DNA from so many people that are just unrelated to
this crime, right. And it's tricky because the knife sheath
is really the only evidence at the crime scene with
(06:51):
the suspects DNA, and that was weighing heavily on Kristin
Middleman at Authrom.
Speaker 7 (06:58):
That made it a lot more risky to go ahead
and proceed with testing because if you consume that evidence,
that might be the only evidence from this crime scene
that will ever exist.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
The other thing that's interesting about the knife sheath is
that there's a leather strap at the top with a snap,
and that's what actually holds the knife in this holder. Now, Alen,
think about when you close a snap, you have to
like press down firmly with your thumb or finger, and
then when you open it, you're kind of flicking that
(07:32):
same thumb or finger against the snap and it you know,
it takes some effort to do and there's a lot
of contact between your thumb and the snap. In this case,
investigators didn't just have DNA, They actually had a lot
of it, and it was fresh. It hadn't you been
exposed to the elements, and it hadn't been sitting in
(07:54):
a police.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Locker for decades.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Because this was a recent crime, like really resent and
David Middleman at OUTHRAM says, that makes it kind of
different from working a cold case.
Speaker 8 (08:07):
This was some of the best quality DNA we'd ever seen.
The challenge was just doing this very carefully and very
quickly so we can get leads back to investigators as
soon as possible.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Now, if you remember, as Authram does the forensic genetic genealogy,
they start to see clues that the suspect has family
in Pennsylvania. Police also have a list of all the
owners of white Hyundai Elantra's in the region.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
The car seen speeding from the King roadhouse after the murders.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yeah, and so they're looking for Elantras with Pennsylvania connections,
and they actually find that there's a graduate student at
Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, which is less than
ten miles from Moscow where these murders happened, who had
originally registered their car on campus with Pennsylvania plates.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
He actually went and changed the registry on his car
from Pennsylvania, which only requires a rear license plate, to Washington,
which requires front and rear license plates.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
And that happened after the murders.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Yeah, just days after the murders.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
That is telling. It's interesting how it's a constellation of
pieces of evidence. It's not any one thing, it's everything
coming together. The DNA, the car, the change in license plate.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
And then the FBI calls a big meeting and all
of the key players are there, you know, the prosecutors,
Moscow police, State police. They've gone from you know, twenty
thousand plus tips and lists of suspects, where everybody's eventually
been cleared.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
They have twenty thousand tips to narrow down. That feels
nearly impossible.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Right, But in this meeting they suddenly learned that they
can narrow down the list of potential suspects and focus
on just one person. It's a guy named Brian Coberger
who is from Pennsylvania and Allen. He's a graduate student
in criminology at Washington State University.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And let me guess his car is a white Hyundai Alantra.
Speaker 9 (10:17):
I remember exactly that moment of hearing his name and
where he lived and what he drove and seeing his picture.
Our first reaction was disbelief, and it took a second
or to set in because it happened fairly quickly. I
don't think any of us were expecting an answer so quickly,
(10:42):
and so to get the answer, I wasn't expecting it.
So it was a shot.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Was he ever on a suspect list?
Speaker 9 (10:49):
No, never heard his name before, didn't know he existed
until that moment.
Speaker 10 (10:54):
Nomen Doug.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
Prosecutor Ashley Jennings wasn't the only person who was shocked.
Captain Dustin Blaker of the Moscow Police actually thought the
FBI was joking when they said Brian Coburger's name, because
all along detectives have been saying like, oh, come on,
just give us a name to investigate. And then when
they heard his name, detectives were like, okay, stop kidding around.
(11:18):
They couldn't believe that after so many dead ends, forensic
genetic genealogy actually worked.
Speaker 10 (11:28):
So once we got past the initial shock, it was excitement.
We had something.
Speaker 9 (11:35):
Now we had a direction to go, and then it
really did change things.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
For the first time. The entire investigative team sees a
picture of Brian Coburger and he looks just like how
Dylan the roommate described him, which is so remarkable.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
In what way.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So just after four.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Am on November thirteenth, when Dylan opened up her bedroom
door where she saw a man dressed in all black
with a black ski mask covering his face, and he
brushed right by her. The only part of his face
that she could see was his eyes, right you know,
She says, he looked right at me and he had
(12:17):
these really big, bushy eyebrows. And now investigators are staring
at a photo of Brian Coburger and alan he has
these distinctive, big, bushy eyebrows.
Speaker 10 (12:32):
We had an analyst with the FBI that went, Okay,
nobody go and start checking this guy's name online because
we don't know how smart he is. We don't know
if he has anything logged her in a computer system
somewhere that hey, someone's searching my name now. So it
was very hard for I know myself and some of
the other investigators to not do anything and actually go
(12:53):
home and try and sleep, which I didn't sleep very
well that night. I was too excited.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So the police and the FBI have a name, and
Police Captain Dustin Blaker can't sleep because he's excited to
finally have a solid lead. I don't blame him. This
is huge. So what happens the next day.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Well, they start looking through their records to see if
they've had any interaction with Brian Corberger, and it turns
out that a few months before the murders, he was
pulled over by Moscow police.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Our Sheriff's Department stopped his car for speeding. He got
a ticket for no seat belt, but we were able
then to identify him driving the car, confirmed that the
car was his, and at that time it was registered
still with his pencil plates, which includes just a rear
license plate.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Now authorities go to find Brian Coburger, but he's not
in Idaho and he's not in Pullman, Washington either.
Speaker 6 (14:11):
And followed his trail and located him in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
What we know now is that in December, right before
the DNA from the knife sheath is linked to Brian Coburger,
his father flew out to Washington State and the two
of them then drive across the country back to the
family home in Pennsylvania for the winter holidays in.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
The white Houndai Elantra.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
Yeah, in the white Hyundai Elantra. And on that trip,
Brian Coberger and his dad are pulled over twice in
Indiana for tailgating. Police recently released the bodycam footage of
the traffic stops, and in one of those videos, you
can see the officer approach the car and the window
(14:56):
is down, his dad is sitting in the passenger seat,
and you know they're just like having sort of a
friendly conversation with the officer. Brian, he doesn't seem nervous
at all.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
He's not agitated.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
He leans down like toward his dad so he can
see the officer directly through the window.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
He's like so calm, I'd get nervous being pulled over anytime.
The fact that it's possible he's just murdered four people
and still seem so calm. That's haunting or maybe says
something about him, But at this point police don't know
who they're talking to.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
No, And what's so wild is that during both those stops,
his dad actually mentions a fatal standoff at Washington State University,
where Brian is a grad student, that had just happened
the day before, totally unrelated to this crime. And his
dad tells the officers that he and his son were
just talking about that horrible scent. And now both of
(16:02):
these traffic stops he's let off with just a warning.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
They're so close.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
So when law enforcement can't find him in Washington or Idaho,
they start monitoring his parents' home in eastern Pennsylvania's in
the Poconos, and they learn that he has two sisters.
Now they can see that Brian Coberger and his dad
have returned from this cross country drive. They also start
to notice some odd behavior, so when Coburger exits the house,
(16:32):
he's usually wearing gloves, you know, like medical or latex gloves.
They can also see that he's parked his white Hondai
Lantra in the garage and Allen, they can see that
he's cleaning the car a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Cleaning the Oh god, he's just trying to hide any
evidence or maybe trying to keep his DNA from being
able to be taken by law enforcement.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Now, authorities are gathered a lot of other pieces of evidence,
and they get search warrants for his cell phone.
Speaker 10 (17:05):
And then as we started digging into his cell phone data,
we were able to determine that he had been in
that area twenty two or twenty three different times since
he moved here in June, near the King roadhouse.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Yeah, and that's between his cell phone pings and sightings
of his car, and authorities noticed something else really unusual.
So on the morning of the murders, his cell phone
pings a tower in Pullman, Washington, where Brian Koberger lives,
and that happens at two forty seven am, and then
it stops connecting with the network. It reconnects at four
(17:44):
forty eight am, but now it's south of Moscow. I
asked Captain Blaker about that, the fact.
Speaker 10 (17:51):
That he had turned his phone off that night, which
is very unusual nowadays for kids this age, they just
don't do that. That's unheard of, that they're going to
turn their phone off completely. And then it reactivated two
hours after the homicide south of Moscow in a very
rural area.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Prosecutor Ashley Jennings says they were able to trace his car.
Speaker 9 (18:15):
We were able to then accumulate video surveillance showing a
white Lantro which matched his Lantra, entering back into the
Pullman area, going towards where he resided.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
And then alen. His phone is also picked up near
the King Road house about five hours after the murders.
Authorities get search warrants for Coberger's financial records and they
spot some really unusual activity there too.
Speaker 6 (18:45):
Before the murders, used a shop for a regularly using
this debit card or credit card over here in Moscow,
and that stopped right after the homicides, and he was
shopping in Pullman or He's doing a lot of cash
transactions which was also suspicious to us and something that
a jury could use to infer another acknowledgment or concern
(19:07):
about his own guilt and trying to keep a low profile.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
They find a huge clue and it's pretty incriminating.
Speaker 9 (19:14):
And then we learn about the Amazon purchase and things
just start falling into place.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Looking at his purchases, detectives see that when Coberger was
still living in Pennsylvania. He bought an Amazon gift.
Speaker 9 (19:29):
Card and then immediately turned around and used the gift
card to purchase a kbar night sharpener and some vegan supplements,
And that all occurred before he even moved to the area.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
So maybe he thought that by buying the gift card
it would cover his tracks, but it actually shows that
there could be some premeditation.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Yeah, and like premeditation super far in advance.
Speaker 9 (19:55):
I think it led investigators to believe that he was
already in the process of trying to cover as tracks unsuccessfully.
But there would be no other purpose that we could
uncover as to why you would purchase a gift card
for yourself and then use the gift card to make
purchases for yourself and use the entire thing other than
(20:17):
you felt that that in some way would hide the
purchases that you made, and we know that after the murders,
he went back in to that Amazon account and researched
if there was a way to delete your purchase history.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
It's fascinating to me that once they had a name,
it seems like everything, all of this evidence reveals itself.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
It really does. But as they're closing in authorities want
more DNA this time they need a reference sample.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
Oh, I bet they do. I mean they need to
make sure they can connect DNA from family members in
this house in Pennsylvania to the person who left the
knife sheath in the bed next to Maddie and Kayley.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
And the last big piece of evidence before we were
able to file charges is when the FBI did what's
called a trash pull at his parents'.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
Residence a few days after Christmas. When the Coburgers put
their trash out for pickup, the FBI takes a few things.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
It always gets me that law enforcement can just go
through people's trash. Is that really legal in every state?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
So laws vary state by state, but basically yeah, I mean,
trash is considered abandoned property rather than private property once
you put it out for collection. In this case, authorities
arranged with the garbage company to pick up the Coburger's
trash and then hand it over to detectives. And as
they are looking through the bags, they find a Q
(21:52):
tip with ear wax on it.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
And that was sent to the lab for analysis.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Now, the Q tip is sent to the Idaho State Lab.
And this is actually really important we know that AUTHORAM
built a DNA profile and that along with police work
like investigating the car and the suspicious registration swich, that
all led authorities to Brian Coberger. But now they need
(22:17):
confirmation and I sort of think of it as like
double checking your work.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
That makes sense.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Instead of sending the Q tip to AUTHRAM, they test
it at the State Lab, so it's a different lab
using a different kind of DNA tests from AUTHORM to
see if they get the same answer. Basically, does the
DNA point to the same suspect.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
And the Idaho State Lab identified as being DNA from
the father of the person whose DNA was on the
knife sheath.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
We also know from earlier DNA testing of the knife
sheath that the DNA is from a mail and Brian
doesn't have a brother, He's only got sisters. So at
this point you have two forensic labs working completely independently
from one another and using two different methods, and they
both point to the same suspect, Brian Cooberger.
Speaker 6 (23:12):
The other thing about the DNA that was unique and
really important is it was sole source DNA from a male.
In other words, there was no mixture of DNA. It
wasn't something that maybe inadvertently his DNA had been on
somebody else's hand and then they transferred it to the sheath.
It wasn't that at all. It was a direct transfer
(23:34):
from the defendant to the snap on that sheath, and
that was powerful evidence. At that point, we believed we
had enough evidence to file charges, and that's when we
got the arrest warrant.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
Moscow Police Captain Dustin Blaker says, detectives are racing to
get to Pennsylvania with the arrest warrant.
Speaker 10 (24:18):
Luckily, we had a local business in this area who
has private jets that like take them. I'll give you
my jet, I'll pay for the fuel, I'll pay for everything,
and put our guys on the plane and send them
all the way to Pennsylvania that night. So it turned
around very quickly, and it was just excitement.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
On December thirtieth, a team of investigators and prosecutors are
gathered in a room at the Moscow Police Department and
they're watching a live feed from Pennsylvania where officers are
surveilling the coburger house. Prosecutor Bill Thompson says, it's shortly
after midnight.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
It appeared that everybody in the house was asleep, except
he was up. He was seen by one of the
surveillance officers in the kitchen area of the house and
then looked like maybe he'd gone down to the garage
area of the house, and about at that point they
gave the green light for the teams to enter the
(25:18):
residence and they apprehended him in the basement.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
WHOA, this is intense.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
He doesn't put up a fight. Five days later, Brian
Coberger is extradited back to Idaho and Moscow Police Captain
Dustin Blaker says, that's when they get a direct swab
of his DNA.
Speaker 10 (25:38):
Then we had a one positive match to our original
DNA sample off of the knife sheath.
Speaker 6 (25:44):
It's kind of hard to explain away your DNA being
on the knife sheath found by one of the victims
who had been stabbed to death with a knife that
would have fit in that sheath.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
Prosecutor Ashley Jennings says, it all came down to forensic
genetic geology.
Speaker 9 (26:01):
Do I think we would have eventually gotten to Brian
coworger Yes, I do, but it absolutely would not have
occurred so quickly, And I can't even begin to estimate
how long it would have taken investigators to get to
his name. But for the work of the genetic genealogist.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
We now had him in custody. We now had an
active criminal case. And that's where things start to pick
up substantially for our office handling the court aspects of
the prosecution.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
Detectives and prosecutors are pulling all of the other evidence together.
They search his apartment and his parents home, and in
the process we learn a lot more about who Brian
Coberger is.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
I have so many questions I know so.
Speaker 5 (26:56):
He grew up in Pennsylvania. Both his parents worked for
the local school district. His mom was a teacher's aide
and his dad was a maintenance worker. He has two sisters.
He was bullied a bit growing up, and he posted
to various online sites about feeling depressed and having some
suicidal tendencies. When he was sixteen, he posted, I feel
(27:21):
like an organic sack of meat with no self worth.
As I hug my family, I look into their faces,
I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video game.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
But less.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
He says he basically saw his life as a video
game where he could do whatever he wanted. With little remorse.
Coburger also apparently started to suffer from visual snow around
this time, where he complained his vision was fuzzy and
friends of his said it really bothered him. He graduated
(27:59):
high schoo in twenty thirteen, and around this time he
starts using heroin. Later on, he gets clean and he
studies criminology in college. He tells a friend he wants
to find a job either catching violent criminals or maybe
counseling them.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Wow, that's just so ironic considering what's to come.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
While he's getting his master's degree, he actually studies under
an expert on serial killers. She's written books called The
Mind of a Murderer and How to Catch a Killer.
As part of his master's degree, he designs a survey
where he asks X cons about their crimes.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
It's like he's researching how to commit a crime.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
He asks detailed questions like before making your move, how
did you approach the victim or target? After committing the crime,
what were you thinking and feeling? Why did you do
you choose that victim or target over others?
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Oh my god, that is so terrifying.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
I mean it's hard not to feel like he's methodically researching.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
This, I mean presumably spending all of his time studying criminology,
understanding it, going into graduate school for it. Then got
to this kind of impressive place of studying and researching
with this famous expert on serial killers, like he clearly
(29:33):
is working so hard to get close to this topic.
You're right, there is this calculated potentially for years and
years trying to get closer to this and being drawn
to this as a thing in his life.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
We also learned that the same day that authorities first
learn Brian Coberger's name, he's fired from his position as
a teaching assistant at Washington State University.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Oh what happened?
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Well, there are a number of complaints against him. In
the weeks surrounding the murders, he gets into some kind
of disagreement with a professor twice. He's also known for
getting into heated arguments in class, especially with female students.
Several women complained that he was making them feel uncomfortable.
(30:21):
One woman actually says Brian Coberger followed her to her car.
Now Allen in the murder investigation, there was also some
concern that Kaylee had a stalker. In one of Dylan's interviews,
with police. She mentions that Kaylee had been at a
grocery store and noticed some guy following her in the store,
(30:42):
and then when she goes out to her car, that
same guy is standing next to her car.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Kayleie also said she thought she.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Was being watched when she took her dog outside at
night to pee. Now police looked into it and basically
they couldn't prove that she had a stalker.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yeah, but it's eerie to know that Coburger was making
female students feel uncomfortable and following at least one of them.
It does make me wonder if he was doing that
to Kaylee too well.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
And remember, early on police said they believed it was
a targeted attack, even though they didn't know who did
it or why. And I asked Prosecutor Bill Thompson what
he thought.
Speaker 6 (31:23):
I don't want to speak for the police department itself
on that. I know that Ashley and I looking at
the scene, looking at the nature of the attacks and
the injuries, looking also at the activities of everybody and
what we believe likely happened at the house. We thought
it most likely that the murderer entered the house intending
(31:43):
to attack at least one of the residents of the house,
as opposed to a random and grab somebody off the street.
This was targeted on this particular residence.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
And what makes him feel that way.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Well, they're pretty sure that Coburger entered through that sliding
glass door on the second floor, you know, the one
off the kitchen. Now, there are two bedrooms on that floor,
Dylan's and Xana's, but he doesn't go to either of
those rooms. Instead, he enters and goes upstairs to the
third floor, where Kaylee and Mattie's bedrooms are.
Speaker 6 (32:18):
The nature of the injury suggested that Maddy was likely
attacked first and Kaylee was attacked immediately afterwards.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Now we know Xana got food delivered from Jack in
the Box, and based on crime scene photos, we can
see that she eats some of it French fries, and
then she leaves it in the kitchen. So maybe she
hears some commotion on the third floor and goes to investigate,
because remember Dylan says she hears someone say someone's here,
(32:48):
and then she hears someone run down the stairs.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
So maybe she was hearing Xana. So Xana hears noises,
leaves her food behind on the second floor to investigate.
She's the one who says, so one's here, and then
Xanna runs back downstairs again.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Yeah, and maybe Brian Coberger leaves Maddie's bedroom on the
third floor and confronts Xanna on the second floor.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
And we believe that that led to him pursuing Xana
to her room and killing her in Heathen.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
She had defensive wounds, so she was awake and encountered him,
maybe in a hallway.
Speaker 6 (33:25):
Yes, we think that that is likely what happened. And
she did, she had defenses wounds. She did fight.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Back, and that's when Dylan opens her door and looks right.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
At the suspect.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
And now he's murdered four people. Maybe that's more than
he'd intended. And he's also been in the house for
sixteen minutes. Maybe he panics, Maybe he just realizes he
needs to get out of there.
Speaker 5 (33:53):
Coburger is charged with four counts of murder and one
count of burglary. At his arraynment, he just stands there, silent.
He won't say anything, So the court enters a plea
of not guilty on his behalf, and prosecutors Bill Thompson
and Ashley Jennings prepare for a trial Brian Coberger's defense
team fights everything the evidence the DNA, literally everything.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
They tried to assert that there was a legally protected
interest in the DNA that was abandoned on the sheath.
That's contrary to what the law says. They questioned the
process of using the investigative genetic genealogy. We were confident
from the beginning that the genetic genealogy was solid, and
(34:39):
the courts agreed with us. But that was a major battle.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
The judge rules that the DNA evidence can be admitted
in court, and then Coberger's team tries kind of a
hail Mary.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
They wanted to point the finger at other people as
being responsible for this, to try to point the finger
at innocent third parties and try to argue that one
of these other people might have somehow been responsible for
the murders.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
There's also the gag order, remember Allen. The judge bars
everyone involved in the case from speaking publicly about it,
and that just created NonStop conspiracy theories and speculation, and
Kristin Middelman says it was incredibly frustrating and damaging to
the truth.
Speaker 11 (35:24):
The people that made themselves experts in this case were
people that had not worked the case that may know
a little bit of this type of DNA testing, And
they went on every news show they could get on,
on every talk show, they could get on every podcast
out there, and talked and talked in detail about how
(35:45):
this case was solved. They were completely wrong.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
And it skews the public's understanding of what actually happened.
Speaker 5 (35:53):
And so a few days later, the defense team reaches
out to the prosecutors.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
We were contacted by the defense with a question as
to whether we wanted to make a plea offer, and
we listened to what they had to say, and our
meat response is, well, what is the defendant willing to do?
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Prosecutors call a meeting with the victims' families, and Stacy Chapin,
Ethan's mom, says it was actually just a routine check in.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
You never think that you're a family that's going to
be in this position. But every book I've ever read,
or murder show you've ever watched, it talks about the
death penalty versus a plea deal. I mean, I don't
know if you've never done it. I don't think you
have a preconceived notion about how it's really going to
go down. You're just like, my god, how are we
(36:42):
going to do this? My biggest worry was prepping Mazie
and Hunter to potentially have to testify, and I am
thinking to myself, I do not know how I'm going
to get that girl on a stand.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Ethan's siblings, Hunter and Mazie. I mean, they've been through
utter hell and their grief is still so raw. Said
they testify if it was absolutely necessary, but they're just shattered.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I mean, good luck everybody, because I mean that was
what I was most concerned about. So no, thank you.
I was like, yeah, we're all for life without Pearl.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
But not everyone felt the same way.
Speaker 6 (37:24):
Not surprisingly, there was a split of opinion among the
various families and family members, with some folks saying we
want this over with, we want closure, we want him
to be gone forever. We don't want to have decades
of appeals, and others saying no, we think that you
need to continue to pursue the death penalty, even if
(37:46):
it takes decades. So we the attorney team, took all
that input and sat down among ourselves and weighed the
pros and cons of various options, and we decided that
we would tell the defense that if the defendant wished
to avoid trial. There was only one option that was
(38:09):
for him to plead guilty as charged to all five
counts and to waive appeals so that the case would
be final, and we let them know that we were
going to be looking for fixed life sentences to run consecutively.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Brian Koberger agreed to those conditions, and just a few
months ago, in July of twenty twenty five, he changed
his plea to guilty. At the sentencing, family members and
friends of the victim spoke to a packed courthouse. It
was streamed live online and I watched it as it
was happening, and Allen, it was surreal. I mean, this
(38:48):
might kind of sound strange, but after spending so much
time researching this case, to see these family members stand
there just deep in their grief and have to relay
the worst moments of their lives and do it in
front of Brian Coburger, it was just sobering and there
was a range of emotions. I want to play you
(39:11):
some of what people had to say that day. This
is Dylan talking one of the surviving roommates. She was
so overcome that she asked to sit in a chair
at the prosecutor's table. Ashley Jenning stood up and gave
her seat to Dylan, and as Dylan spoke, Bill Thompson,
the other prosecutor, he actually turns his back to block
(39:35):
Dylan's view of Coburger. Here's Dylan, what happened that night
changed everything. I made escape plans everywhere I went. If
something happens, how do I get out? What can I
use to defend myself? I can't think.
Speaker 12 (39:57):
I can't stop shaking. You say I'm a survivor, but
I don't see what my new reality looks like. They
don't see the panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the
way I scan every room I enter, the way I flinch,
(40:18):
it sudden sounds. They don't know how heavy it is
to carry so much pain and still be expected to
keep going. And that's because of him.
Speaker 5 (40:28):
One after another, mother's sisters, fathers, and uncles stood up
to speak. Some looked right at Coburger. Others never even
glanced at him. One family member actually turned his back
and spoke only to the family and friends gathered in
the courthouse. This is Mattie's stepfather, Scott Laramie. He talked
(40:51):
about Mattie's love of music and going to festivals with her.
Speaker 13 (40:55):
As for the defendant, we will not waste the words
we fall into hatred and bitterness. Evil has many faces,
and we now know this, but evil does not deserve
our time and attention. We are done being victims. We
(41:19):
are taking back our lives. We will turn our time, talents,
and attention to hope, healing and helping others and to
the future. We invite all those who have suffered with
us on this to join us in our journey. We
(41:41):
can make this world a better place. We can move
on from tragedy. Adversity will visit us, evil will visit us,
but we will overcome.
Speaker 5 (41:53):
Xana's aunt, Kim Carnoodles spoke about her.
Speaker 14 (41:57):
She was that fun I mean, high spirited, beautiful person
and I no longer get to get my nails done
with her, have lunch with her. Sorry, But how I
(42:19):
look at it now is this tragedy has brought us closer.
We're united now and we're stronger than ever. We have
family and friends now that we never knew we had.
And you know this is probably going to bother everybody,
(42:39):
but Brin, I'm here today to tell you I have
forgiven you because I no longer could live with that
hate in my heart and for me to become a
better person, I have forgiven you. And anytime you want
to talk and tell me what happened yet my number.
I'm here judgment because I do have questions that I
(43:03):
want you to answer, and I'm here. I'll be that
one that'll listen to you.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
Kaylee's sister Olivia looked directly at coburger.
Speaker 15 (43:15):
You wanted so badly to be different, to be special,
to be better, to be deep, to be mysterious. Lurking
in the shadows made you feel powerful because no one
ever paid you any attention. In the light, I will
call you what you are, sociopath, psychopath, murderer.
Speaker 5 (43:35):
Ethan Chapin's family decided not to attend. This is his
mom Stacy.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
We genuinely had nothing to say. I mean, what is
there to say? But that was ours and everybody heals differently.
There is no judgment on how anybody handled that situation,
but for us, there's an amazing Hunter didn't want to go.
We had a family meeting about it and they we
(44:01):
were just like, we're done, it's done. It's over this
The sentence was written into the plea and there was nothing.
Speaker 6 (44:08):
To say it was over.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
This is just such a good example of how people
respond to or heal from trauma so differently. Everybody's got
to find their own way of comprehending and processing what happened,
and they're allowed to. I don't think they should be
judged for that.
Speaker 5 (44:27):
The Chapin family did do something on their own, though.
One by one they each got a tattoo to remember Ethan, and.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Maisie was the first one, which surprised me. She just
came home one day and she was a little e
with wings.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
It's very cute.
Speaker 6 (44:43):
I called him eat dog.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
So I had that tattooed on my form, which was
a shock. I was never a tattoo guy, but I
just I got up one morning and I was driving
in into town and I could go right to work
or left to find someone that would do this for me,
and I went, I went left, and I came back
(45:06):
with it on.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Then I had to have one, so I went the
next day. But mine is actually from a note that
Ethan wrote me in his handwriting.
Speaker 9 (45:15):
You know.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
It was in some cute little card says I love
you mom.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
And Hunter got a c for the whole Chapin family.
Jim says that each have their own private ritual for
connecting with Ethan.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
I talked to Ethan every morning it's usually on my
way to work, and listened to his favorite country listen
to his favorite country song. He was a big Morgan
Wallen fan. Ye, and I know the songs when he
was around that he listened to. And I just play
that and talk to him on my way to work
every morning.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
That's beautiful. There's something that feels so important about remembering
someone across time through routine or just a moment here there,
and that connection through music that's so special.
Speaker 5 (46:17):
Brian Koberger is currently serving four consecutive life sentences without
the possibility of parole. There is relief that the murderer
was caught quickly after a six and a half week
manhunt and before he could hurt anyone else. But now
these families have to pick up the pieces and figure
(46:37):
out what life looks like without Ethan, Xanna, Maddie and Kaylee.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Yeah, picking up those pieces has got to feel impossible,
learning to live in what probably feels like a totally
new way, and I bet it hits them again and
again at unexpected times. But it really seems like with
these four young people who were so full of energy
and life, I mean, moving forward won't really be without them.
(47:08):
It's clear that in these families and friends, their memories
are still so vivid and so alive. Next time on
America's Crime Lab.
Speaker 16 (47:24):
Dispatch received a nine one one call from a neighbor.
When they answered the door, they found her in nothing
but a blood soaked T shirt.
Speaker 8 (47:33):
You know what, it looks like. There's another case in
another state that also has unknown DNA that is the same.
Speaker 16 (47:40):
You know, then, I'm really excited now we have a
potential suspect.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope.
Erica Lance is our story editor and sound design is
by David Woji. Our producing team is Catherine Fedalosa, Emily
Foreman and Jessica albert Our. Executive producers are Kate Osborne,
Mangesh Hadigadour and David and Kristin Middelman And from iHeart
(48:08):
Katrina Norville and Ali Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne,
Will Pearson, Kerrie Lieberman, Nikki Etour, Nathan Etowski, John Burbank
and the entire team at OUTHRM. I'm Alan lance Lessor.
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.