September 10, 2019 • 25 mins
Are you living in constant clutter? Renowned happiness expert and New York Times bestselling author Gretchen Rubin is weighing in on the best way to order your home to make room for happiness without having to purge your entire life in her new book “Outer Order, Inner Calm.”
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
We all know that you know, cleaning out your closet
is not going to save the world, but there is
this feeling of like, if I can get control of
my stuff, maybe I'll feel more control of my life generally.
And I think people do experience experience that they get
a sense of energy and control and um kind of
a revitalized feeling from creating Outer Order, And so it's
a way to offset this feeling of being overwhelmed by
(00:24):
uncertainty and by negative information. Hi, I'm Dr Oz and
(00:47):
this is the Doctor Oz Podcast. Take a look around
the room that you're in right now. Just stop what
you're doing and take quick look. Is it filled to
the brain with cluttering boxes that you have not opened
for years? Or have you already heated the Marie Kindo
approach to cleaning and you only surround yourself with the
things you absolutely need a spark. Joy Well Renow. I'm
happiness expert and New York Times best selling author Aggression
(01:09):
Reuben is wayne In on the best way to order
your house to make room for the happiness without having
the purge your entire life, talks all about it in
a new book, Outer Order Intercom. The cover itself makes
you calm. Welcome back to the podcast. Oh, I'm so
happy to be back. Thanks for having me. So if
I went at home. You've seen this huge shift in
society with an obsession with purging things we don't need
directly to declared our lives. And I'm curious, when do
(01:31):
we all become aspiring minimalists. Well, you know, I think
part of it is. I think there's a couple of
things going on right and this this cultural moment. One
is that I think people feel very overwhelmed by information,
by developments in the world, and they're seeking some kind
of equilibrium. And so we all know that, you know,
cleaning out your closet is not going to save the world,
but there is this feeling of like, if I can
(01:53):
get control of my stuff, maybe I'll feel more control
of my life generally. And I think people do experience
experience that they get a sense of energy and control
and um kind of a revitalized feeling from creating outer order.
And so it's a way to offset this feeling of
being overwhelmed by uncertainty and by negative information. And then
also demographically, um, there's a lot of people who are downsizing,
(02:16):
who are dying and so stuff is coming down. And
then there are the people who are in the season
of stuff, so they have children who generate their own
kinds of clutter. And so I think there's there are
just a lot of people who, for whatever reason just
feel like, oh my gosh, there's just too much stuff
in my life. I need to figure out how to
dig my way out of here. She even know a
lot about this. Were you ever a clutter bug? What's
your what's your natural instinct? If you weren't a happiness Actually, well,
(02:38):
you know, I'm pretty orderly, um, but but I feel
this this connection very strongly myself. Like if I'm feeling
blue or if I'm feeling kind of listless, I will
often sort of clean something up to get the buzz,
to get the little energy fixed. And so that's always
starting me as curious, because like, why is there this
disproportionate reaction, Like I know that in the context of
(02:59):
a pup your life, something like a neat coat closet
is trivial, and yet I feel so much better, um
when I do it. And so that's what drew me
to that subject is I wanted to understand why we
so many people feel that kind of connection. I think
is not the neat coat closet that makes you happy.
It's the really stuffed, yes, terrible fluttered closet that makes
you feel bad. But nagging feeling hanging over your head
(03:23):
with a clutter. Absolutely, and stuff can make us feel
bad because partly it's it's hard to put things away,
it's hard to find. The research suggests that the average
American adult spence fifty five minutes a day looking for
misplaced items. So imagine, imagine what you can do with
fifty five minutes. Um. So there's that, and then there's
also a lot of times they remind us we feel regret. Oh,
I spent too much on this pair of boots, and
so every time I see it, I get a little
(03:44):
thing of guilt or um, it's related to a fantasy
self I'm gonna learn to play guitar, or you know,
I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna use that treadmill, and
so you feel guilty when you look at it. Or
it's like an unfinished project, something like a thousand piece
puzzle or you know, a knitting project that you haven't finished.
That just it's sort of lingering there, and when you
look at it. It It brings you down. And as you said,
when you get when you have that space and all
(04:06):
that stuff is cleared away, you just feel so much
freer and lighter. You know. When Mike Roisen was working
out the real age tests, yes, incascinating to figure out
how wold your body thinks you are. There's a whole
category of nuts, nagging unfinished tasks. And the metaphor he
would always use was the broken screen door, that which
rips your butt as you walk out of your house
(04:26):
every morning, that one day you're going to fix. And
I think you're both right that it's the fact that
you didn't fix it that bothers you, not the fact
that it exists, which I think explains some of the
medical betters. There's actually a you you sacrifice. It's a
significant amount of life. Having a life filled with these
nagging tasks underlines your incompetence. Yes, well. And one of
(04:47):
the ways that I suggest in the book about tackling
that is power hour and power hours. You keep a
list of those things like I need to take the
shoes to the shoe place, or I need to go
to the hardware story to get that weird light bulb,
or I need to fix that screen door, um, and
you keep a list of it and then and so
even if you're a very very busy person and you
feel like I don't have time to deal with it,
it's like, okay, for one hour once a week, can
(05:10):
you do power hour and just start making your way
through this task. And often people find it's like the
old stay saying this stewing is worse than the doing,
and that when you actually have some kind of system
for tackling something like the screen door, which it's sort
of like things that can be done at any time
are often done at no time. So when you create
a time when those kinds of things get done, then
it's I think for a lot of people, that makes
(05:30):
it a lot easier to to to get those things
crossed off the list, and then, as you say, get
that boost of sort of self efficacy that comes from
finally getting it done that hurts doing worse than doing,
But that could in future conversation, you know, do you
have a technique for for sorting out which things to
do first? Because I have a trillion of them, and
that's why none of them ever get done because I
(05:52):
can't I can't figure out which my books. First, at first,
do I do my you know, the leftover toys, there's
my makeup? Where do you get started? Where do you start? Regression?
You should know this is actually an intervention. Oh good, yes, okay, excellent.
I've been asking for this segment for a while. House
I'm telling you it is a walking example of nuts.
Yeah yeah, well um, And it's often a conflict in
(06:15):
couples where one person just has a different place that
conflict in our couple over the but there should be
someone someone's complaining about it all the time and someone
else isn't listening. Oh yeah, I believe. Well, some people
are just clutter. One my sister who's the co host
of the Happier podcast with me, she just like doesn't
see it, you know. She like literally she wouldn't close
the kitchen cabinet door for the rest of her life.
(06:36):
She didn't love at other people. But if you say
where to get started, one one place is not to
get started is don't get started by saying I'm going
to get organized. Because a lot of times when people
decide they want to get organized, they feel this impulse
to run out and buy stuff like complicated hangers or binders.
People love to buy binders or you know, storage containers,
Like first get rid of everything that's just clogging the system,
(06:57):
because you may find that you don't need to get organized.
There's just there's not enough left that needs to be organized.
You can just like put it away. But then that
raises the question of how do you decide what to
keep and what you're relinquished? And you mentioned Marie Condo
and her test is sparked joy. I have to say
that for myself that that works really well for a
lot of people. I just felt like I had many
things in my life that I wouldn't say truly sparked joy,
(07:19):
and yet they were, they were doing their little jobs. Well,
I didn't find for me that was a helpful test.
For me, I say, do I need it? Do I
use it? Do I love it? Because there are things
that I need and use that I don't love, and
there are things that I love that I don't really
use um and I don't really need, but I love them.
So for me, it's that's the test doing What about
what about if it's useful in the zombie apocalypse? I
mean people, Okay, see that is the unknown fature. There
(07:43):
is that's a kind of anticipatory clutter. So okay, so yes, yes, Well,
so one of the things you can do is if
you if you buy things for that So if you're
a person like I need this for the winner, I
need this for for birthday, one thing you can do
is you can say i'm gonna store it at the store.
I'm gonna leave it at the store. They'll hang on
to it for me, and then when I decide if
(08:04):
I need this kind of thermal underwear, I'm gonna go
get it at that point, but for now they're I'm
just gonna let them hang on to it. So that's
a kind of clutter. Then there's accidental stockpiling, which is
when you're like, you can always use a good glass jar,
So I'm going to keep all the good glass jars
that come in to my house. Well, you know, your
family likes pickles, and pretty soon you've got sixty glass jars,
and like, what do you do with them? So if
you're you want to watch out for accidental stockpiling because
(08:25):
then you have a lot of stuff to manage. And
these things are useful in their way, but you have
too many of them. Like my friend who had a
thousand ketchup packets because every time they got food, she's like,
oh'll just throw the ketchup packets in the drawer instead
of saying to the take out people, no condiments. You know,
you don't want to accidentally stockpol you want to avoid
the stockpile. And then there I have to say. You
(08:45):
know how they say with gamblers, you win one time
and it's so exciting and thrilling to you that you
you can't you just go back, go back, go back.
I think for many people who want to keep everything
for the zombie apocalypse, it's like one time somebody came
to them. I was like, do you happen to have
a power chord for fax machine? And you're like, I do,
And you feel so good that you were able to
(09:07):
meet that need that you want to hang onto everything
because you can imagine a fantasy future where it's some
X Y Z thing would come into play. I think
if that is an issue for you and your clutter,
you really need to say, is it reasonably foreseeable that
this thing is actually gonna be useful? If I don't
need it, don't use it, don't love it right now,
why do I think five years from now? I'm gonna
want to use this bread machine, you know, because yes,
(09:29):
it's for and also how much would it cost to
replace it? How difficult would it be to replace this
thing if you gave it away to somebody who's actually
making bread right now, and then you decided in five years, wow,
I really want to make bread. Because a lot of
it is like things are useful now, put them into
the hands of someone who's going to use them now,
and then you may or may not in the future
need them now. If it's your high school diary, that's irreplaceable,
(09:53):
most things are not irreplaceable. Most things can be replaced.
Do you recommend saving your high school diaries? Well, I
think that's a very individual decision. I would keep something
like that because even even symbolically, you know, I think
it's important. But then many people say that they feel
very free when they get rid of those things. Some
some people in this area want to say things aren't important.
(10:13):
This is related to the past. You've got to let
it go, make make room for the future today. This
is not the common experience of man kind. We we
invest possessions with meaning, and they remind us of the
people in places and activities that we love and they
help us project our identity into the into our environment,
so they have an important role to play. But you
want to make sure that like this is actually serving
(10:34):
that purpose. Like what is my feeling about this high
school diary? You know, Um, if it's important to me,
then it's important to me. If it makes me feel
bad every time I look at it and sort of
you know, then get rid of it. There's lots more
when we come back. There is a value I think
(11:00):
of chaos and creativity there. I'm only partially partially jesting
when I said this is an intervention on LISTA. Lisa
will believe stuff around and she somehow knows where they are.
All I see is that people dumb power cord hanging
in the corner there. That's been there and I'm not
sure at some point someone actually has to use it,
but it never clicks to me. In the meantime, it's
(11:22):
irritained to me that it's there. So those are kinds
of things we quipple over. So how do you know
if it's actually If you've got a busy desk, You've
got papers everywhere, but you know where they are and
somehow come in handy. Everyone's blue moon, even though you
never know that that's ever gonna happen. Well, I think
this is a case where you really have to know
yourself in your own process. And there's a fascinating book
called Daily Rituals by Mason Curry, and he just it's
(11:43):
not even daily rituals, it's daily habits. And he goes
through the kind of the habits of these highly successful people, scientists, painters, philosophers, choreographers,
you know. So it's it's all these people and how
they live their lives. And what's very striking is that
these are all extraordinarily productive, creative, intellectual people. But some
work in silence and solitude, and some work in the
(12:04):
middle of a busy studio, and some stay up late
and some get up early, and some drink vodka and
some drink coffee, and some work for half an hour
day and some work for fourteen hours a day. And
what you see is that these people have all figured
out themselves and they know what works for them, and
they don't make sure they have the environment that works
for them, and they stick to that. And so I
think there are absolutely people who find that piles are useful,
(12:24):
doesn't slow them down and unexpected juxtapositions create creativity. And
then there are people who want one laptop and you know,
one pen and one notebook and that's the only thing
on their desk and that's what they need to be productive.
So I really think that when people say like, well
what's the best way, what doesn't really what does that
even mean? Because what your best way? Your best way,
my best way could all be different. So it's more like,
(12:44):
think about, well, what do I need to thrive? Where
do I feel the most creative, productive, calm focused? And
how do I get that environment? I mean, I think
the problem comes when a boss says something like, well,
clutter dusk means a cluttered mind. So in this office,
we're going to have a clear desk policy. But there's
someone like Lisa who works best in a different environment.
And so it's like, why am I forcing as your boss?
(13:05):
Why am I forcing you to work in a way
that works for me? It might not work best for you.
It doesn't have a desk. Yeah, okay, well so there
you go, like to me, the idea I need a desk,
I need hundreds of dusks, you know. And then there
are people who just don't work in enok, and I'm
like a desk? How kicked me off of it? How
can you? Like? How can you work without a desk?
But then but people do and so yeah, I mean
(13:26):
I see people and looking working on their laptops and
airports and it just it just hurts me, hurts me
to see them sitting in that posture. But people, I know,
people have written whole books that way, you know, so
you just don't know what other people. That's me. I
can't do that, love it really, I only have one computer.
I don't want to have information like that all over
(13:47):
the place, not for security reasons. My mind doesn't work. Yes,
there you go. And when desks, I don't want any
drawers maybe one small drawer for knick knacks like paper clips,
paper clips, and then the rest of this has to
be a big wide space. There you go, let's see
it all. Yes. And then when I when I do
check things off the box and then they leave the desk,
they go away. It's like my desktop on the computer.
(14:08):
Same thing I don't actually discard. Most people have ways
of putting Lisa files away, the different emails that come
to her with you. I don't do any of that.
I don't either, and like everything there, yes, So so
I thought thought I was straight. So you're saying to
find out what works? So how do you kick the
tires and figure out if it truly does work for you?
And maybe if you don't mind, explain a little bit
(14:28):
about outer order, this concept that you talk about. Well,
I think that part of it is to say, well,
when do I feel my most comfortable? When am I
getting when am my most productive? Um? And then also
one thing you can say to yourself too is always
helpful question is there a time in the past when
I succeeded better? Because sometimes people are like, oh, well
I did excellent. When I was in college. I would
go to the I would go to the college library,
(14:49):
I would get so much done. It's like, okay, well,
what was it about that environment that was conducive to you?
What what made that feel like the right environment for you?
And then and then if you're sort of like, oh
my gosh, like my open this open office is like
I can't get any work done here, It's like, okay,
is it the solitude is that the other people like,
what is it that's helpful to you? And what's not
helpful to you? Because it might be the different characteristics
(15:10):
of a space or surroundings might be what's helping you
or hurting you. And for out of order, I really
they're one of the things that's interesting about out of
order is that people really want to get to different places.
And so some people, it sounds like you're like me,
are simplicity lovers, and they like bear counters and a
lot of room on the shelf and not much on
the walls and just sort of like lots of simplicity
(15:31):
and space and kind of and quiet. And then there
are abundance lovers, and they love profusion and choice and
collections and a lot going on, and often they do
like piles with that create unexpected juxtapositions. And it's not
that one is right and one is wrong, and one
is efficient or one is creative. It's just that some
people love simplicity and some people love abundance, and even
abundance lovers, I don't think like clutter, because clutter is
(15:53):
stuff that you don't need, don't use, don't love. That's
the charging chords of the device that you got rid
of two years ago. That's the vacuum cleaner that doesn't
really work, so you use the other vacuum. So why
do you have this vacuum if you always use the
other vacuum. It's the fax machine that's not plugged in.
Why do you have a vaxx machine. It's not even
blogged in. You know, get rid of that thing, Um,
get rid of that. That's not abundance. But it is
(16:15):
true that people want to end up with different Like
I don't like you know, how much stuff is on
a coffee table. Some people have a lot of stuff
on a coffee table. They love the way that looks.
I like to visit that. That's not the way my
coffee table looks. Um, because that's not my preference. But
they're because people have different preferences. But about the opposite
extreme of people who are spending their entire life being perfect,
(16:37):
particularly moving things that the book of the coffee table
is that at a right angle to the edge of
the coffee table. Yes, well for some people that's procrastic clearing.
Clearing is when your desire to avoid working on something.
It's it can often manifest and like I need to
vacuum every surface, or you know, I need to go
through my house to make sure everything is that, you know,
is it ninety degree angles, or I need to appetize
(17:00):
books in this bookcase before I can move forward and
writing the annual report. So sometimes you have to be
careful that you're urge to clear is just because working
is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination, because
when we kid ourselves that we're being productive, it's easy
to pretend like we're not actually delaying on what's what
is our true pri priority. And so if you spend
a lot of times, if you're starting to do things
(17:20):
like alphabetize your spices or you know, um, you know,
you feel like this is the time where you need
to go through the deep files and the back cupboard.
You're like, okay, but maybe you need to write the
annual report and then you can tackle those files. You
should do that, but maybe you need to write the
report first. So we're speaking aggression. Reuben New York Times
bestselling author out of Order in our commor newest book,
(17:41):
you you actually arguing the book against being organized in
a way it's counterintuitive. Yeah, Well, it's just that you
don't want to start by thinking that you're going to
get organized, because a lot of times then that becomes
make work where you're you're organizing things that maybe you
don't need, don't use, don't love. Like I was just
talking to somebody on the other day and he was
saying how he was going to organize all his paperwork,
and he was very fired up. He had his binders,
(18:02):
he had his tabbias, three whole punch, he was going
to do this whole thing. And then he realized that
a lot of his paperwork had to do with pet insurance,
and that actually he didn't pet insurance, and that all
of it was online anyway, and he just didn't need
all this paper. Yeah he does have pets, but it's like, Okay,
you don't need you don't need binders and binders and
binders with all your back issues of your pet insurance statements,
(18:24):
and so if you don't bye bye. Saying first what
can I get rid of? What can I give away?
What can I recycle? What can I um toss? You
may not need to get organized um because you just
don't have enough left um. You know. It's it's the
same thing in the kitchen, Like you can spend hours
organizing all your plastic containers, or you can really sit
(18:44):
down and say, like, well, what do I actually use Okay,
maybe I only use five of these things, so I'm
gonna give away everything else. Then the other stuff doesn't
need to be organized. I could just put it on
the shelf because you know, I've gotten rid of everything
I don't need, don't use, don't love. More questions after
the right. There's another concept you speak about that was
(19:13):
sort of foreign to me, which is the idea of
becoming a tourist in your own house. Yes, you know,
I would have thought you want to be most comfortable there,
you know where everything is. Well, be a tourist in
your own home? Is this idea that like a lot
of us have unexplored territories in our house and it's
like what is under the bed in the guest room
I don't know, or maybe there's a bad closet where
it's like stuff goes and then like it's never seen again.
(19:34):
You know where the Bermuda trial of the Attic And
a lot of times, because of decision fatigue, they never
come back. Yeah, they're like, what's up there? Decision fatigue?
It's it's it's it's it takes energy for us to
decide what to do with something. And so for a
lot of people, the way this comes out is it's like, well,
I'll just keep it, rather than deciding, Okay, my kids
are out wearing their clothes, I'm going to decide what
(19:55):
am I going to keep as a hand me down?
What am I going to give away? What is really
just too gross? I'm just gonna like that just rags,
you know, I'm just gonna put it all in a
box and stick in the garage and I'll deal with
it later. So be a tourist in your own home
is like, really visit those places. I mean, you know
here I was writing the book and I'm like, what
are in the cupboards above my refrigerator? I haven't been
up there in a while. Well, there was a lot
of good stuff up there, which I completely forgot about
(20:16):
because um, I had not visited. So being a tourist
is like go, like you know, like a stranger to
all those unexplored areas in your own home, and you
will often find things that you can need, that you
need and use and you're glad to have, or that
you're like, well, I don't even I don't I certainly
don't need this because I didn't even remember it was here.
It's time to give it away. Do you have a
technique for preventing us from accumulating all that stuff? Because
(20:40):
is there a way to sort when it's coming in?
Really just ignore just when you feel that urge, like
it's just easier to put it away, Like be very
careful about storing things when you're like, I'm just gonna
store this, because unless it's something like holiday decorations or
seasonal clothing, storing something suggestsful, I'm just gonna put it
away and I don't really need to get it out.
It's like it's going into just some the basement, the attict,
(21:03):
the garage. Some gigantic percentage of Americans don't can't park
their their cars in their garages because they're so full
of stuff. So when you start just mindless leaking, that
sounds really very well, you're among you're among good company.
But we were unique. Yeah no wait, I'm sorry. Which
the garage and I parkeding. We could not park a
(21:25):
second card because because you like so much space, man
spreading in your garage doesn't he doesn't want to have
to open the door carefully. Yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
don't need baby carriages that for children who are now
in college, see this is a perfect example that, Okay,
something like a baby carriage, so you keep it because
it seems useful there will be another child in the family.
(21:45):
But the fact is, no an actual baby, you would
buy a new one because first of all, the technology
has changed so dramatically, and second of all, it's been
sitting in your garage for twenty years. You have, like
your precious new baby. You're not gonna put your baby
in a twenty year old thing that's been in there
with the spiders crawling all over it. So that's the
kind of thing where to say, like, maybe it's a
precious memory. Take a picture of it. Oh remember this
baby carriage. I remember the stroller so many happy memories.
(22:07):
Take a picture. You have the picture. But I believe
I really do not think that you're going to use
a twenty year old stroller. No, he thinks they're twenty
year olds. They're actually from our most recent grandchild. They're okay,
So they're okay, get recycled among grandkids normally complaining that
we buy so many new things, where why don't you
use the one from the last grand What doesn't want
(22:31):
any baby carriage in there? If you take up a
lot of space. I I went through this because I
live in New York City in an apartment, so the
stroller had to be right by the front door, like
there's no way place to put it, and it just
drove me crazy. But of course now I'm like, oh,
the days are long, but the years are short. Remember
the days of the stroller. Give us a bit of
a pep talk, because you're right about happy and you
(22:51):
make the argument that addressing clutter, yes, well it's not
a shore. It's something that will lift you, yes, And
the fact is from a people, it really is, even
if it's kind of a struggle while you're doing it,
or like you might find the decision fatigue a little
tiring while you're doing it, for most people there is
just a sense of exhilaration. My sister, my co host
(23:12):
on the Happier podcast, My sister listally calls me a
happiness bully because I can be kind of insistent when
I think there's ways for people to become happier, and
I beg my friends to let me come over and
help them clean their closets because I get such a
contact hie from seeing like how charged up they get.
You know, you feel so good um. When you get
(23:33):
like part of it is what you said, Lisa, When
you get rid of that stuff that's dragging you down,
you feel that lift and people will say, oh my gosh,
Like a friend of mine said, I finally cleaned out
my fridge and now I know I can switch careers.
It's like, I know that feeling. It feels so good,
and so I think I'm part of what I wanted
to do with this book is like get people fired up,
you know, like you you start getting into it and
you're like, oh, I can't even I can't even read anymore.
(23:55):
I have to run to the medicine cabinet, or I
have to run, um, you know, to that to that
shelf that's just got a bunch of stuff jammed in it,
because I know I'm gonna feel so good when it
gets cleaned out. Yeah, Jum. You said something though, in
that last statement, which was that you go over and
help your friends. I think it's so much easier with
another person. We'll see. This is interesting because some people
really find it easier to do alone, but many, many
(24:17):
people benefit from a companion. I think part of it
is because there's the accountability of somebody to sitting there.
Like sometimes I go and I'm helping a friend and
I'm just like sitting on the bed drinking coffee while
they muttered themselves and put you know, because they just
need somebody to keep them on task, and my presence
does that. Sometimes people help you make decisions like what
do you think about this? Sometimes people also, I've noticed
(24:38):
with things that are emotionally important to us, like um,
having somebody else kind of witness your appreciation for something
can help you loosen your grip on it. So like
if you're like if you say to your friends, oh
my gosh, I remember this dress. This is when I
just first moved to New York City and we were
going to this fancy thing and I got this dress
and it was exactly what I wanted and I got
it off, and like I remember that day so well,
(24:59):
and they're like such a happy memory. That is so great.
I remember those days. And then you're like, yeah, that
was great, but now I don't need the dress anymore.
As sometimes you need somebody to kind of have that
conversation with you, to kind of testify to the role
that possessions can play, and then that helps loosen your
grub so I think, I think it can be really
helpful to have a person with you. Actually made me
(25:20):
very happy to hear more from Russia and the Times
best selling book out Order Intercom de Clutter and Organized
to make one Room for Happiness. She also has the
Happier podcast because Your beat Up, her sister Happiness Bullying.
Thanks for joining us. Thank you,
We all know that you know, cleaning out your closet
is not going to save the world, but there is
this feeling of like, if I can get control of
my stuff, maybe I'll feel more control of my life generally.
And I think people do experience experience that they get
a sense of energy and control and um kind of
a revitalized feeling from creating Outer Order, And so it's
a way to offset this feeling of being overwhelmed by
(00:24):
uncertainty and by negative information. Hi, I'm Dr Oz and
(00:47):
this is the Doctor Oz Podcast. Take a look around
the room that you're in right now. Just stop what
you're doing and take quick look. Is it filled to
the brain with cluttering boxes that you have not opened
for years? Or have you already heated the Marie Kindo
approach to cleaning and you only surround yourself with the
things you absolutely need a spark. Joy Well Renow. I'm
happiness expert and New York Times best selling author Aggression
(01:09):
Reuben is wayne In on the best way to order
your house to make room for the happiness without having
the purge your entire life, talks all about it in
a new book, Outer Order Intercom. The cover itself makes
you calm. Welcome back to the podcast. Oh, I'm so
happy to be back. Thanks for having me. So if
I went at home. You've seen this huge shift in
society with an obsession with purging things we don't need
directly to declared our lives. And I'm curious, when do
(01:31):
we all become aspiring minimalists. Well, you know, I think
part of it is. I think there's a couple of
things going on right and this this cultural moment. One
is that I think people feel very overwhelmed by information,
by developments in the world, and they're seeking some kind
of equilibrium. And so we all know that, you know,
cleaning out your closet is not going to save the world,
but there is this feeling of like, if I can
(01:53):
get control of my stuff, maybe I'll feel more control
of my life generally. And I think people do experience
experience that they get a sense of energy and control
and um kind of a revitalized feeling from creating outer order.
And so it's a way to offset this feeling of
being overwhelmed by uncertainty and by negative information. And then
also demographically, um, there's a lot of people who are downsizing,
(02:16):
who are dying and so stuff is coming down. And
then there are the people who are in the season
of stuff, so they have children who generate their own
kinds of clutter. And so I think there's there are
just a lot of people who, for whatever reason just
feel like, oh my gosh, there's just too much stuff
in my life. I need to figure out how to
dig my way out of here. She even know a
lot about this. Were you ever a clutter bug? What's
your what's your natural instinct? If you weren't a happiness Actually, well,
(02:38):
you know, I'm pretty orderly, um, but but I feel
this this connection very strongly myself. Like if I'm feeling
blue or if I'm feeling kind of listless, I will
often sort of clean something up to get the buzz,
to get the little energy fixed. And so that's always
starting me as curious, because like, why is there this
disproportionate reaction, Like I know that in the context of
(02:59):
a pup your life, something like a neat coat closet
is trivial, and yet I feel so much better, um
when I do it. And so that's what drew me
to that subject is I wanted to understand why we
so many people feel that kind of connection. I think
is not the neat coat closet that makes you happy.
It's the really stuffed, yes, terrible fluttered closet that makes
you feel bad. But nagging feeling hanging over your head
(03:23):
with a clutter. Absolutely, and stuff can make us feel
bad because partly it's it's hard to put things away,
it's hard to find. The research suggests that the average
American adult spence fifty five minutes a day looking for
misplaced items. So imagine, imagine what you can do with
fifty five minutes. Um. So there's that, and then there's
also a lot of times they remind us we feel regret. Oh,
I spent too much on this pair of boots, and
so every time I see it, I get a little
(03:44):
thing of guilt or um, it's related to a fantasy
self I'm gonna learn to play guitar, or you know,
I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna use that treadmill, and
so you feel guilty when you look at it. Or
it's like an unfinished project, something like a thousand piece
puzzle or you know, a knitting project that you haven't finished.
That just it's sort of lingering there, and when you
look at it. It It brings you down. And as you said,
when you get when you have that space and all
(04:06):
that stuff is cleared away, you just feel so much
freer and lighter. You know. When Mike Roisen was working
out the real age tests, yes, incascinating to figure out
how wold your body thinks you are. There's a whole
category of nuts, nagging unfinished tasks. And the metaphor he
would always use was the broken screen door, that which
rips your butt as you walk out of your house
(04:26):
every morning, that one day you're going to fix. And
I think you're both right that it's the fact that
you didn't fix it that bothers you, not the fact
that it exists, which I think explains some of the
medical betters. There's actually a you you sacrifice. It's a
significant amount of life. Having a life filled with these
nagging tasks underlines your incompetence. Yes, well. And one of
(04:47):
the ways that I suggest in the book about tackling
that is power hour and power hours. You keep a
list of those things like I need to take the
shoes to the shoe place, or I need to go
to the hardware story to get that weird light bulb,
or I need to fix that screen door, um, and
you keep a list of it and then and so
even if you're a very very busy person and you
feel like I don't have time to deal with it,
it's like, okay, for one hour once a week, can
(05:10):
you do power hour and just start making your way
through this task. And often people find it's like the
old stay saying this stewing is worse than the doing,
and that when you actually have some kind of system
for tackling something like the screen door, which it's sort
of like things that can be done at any time
are often done at no time. So when you create
a time when those kinds of things get done, then
it's I think for a lot of people, that makes
(05:30):
it a lot easier to to to get those things
crossed off the list, and then, as you say, get
that boost of sort of self efficacy that comes from
finally getting it done that hurts doing worse than doing,
But that could in future conversation, you know, do you
have a technique for for sorting out which things to
do first? Because I have a trillion of them, and
that's why none of them ever get done because I
(05:52):
can't I can't figure out which my books. First, at first,
do I do my you know, the leftover toys, there's
my makeup? Where do you get started? Where do you start? Regression?
You should know this is actually an intervention. Oh good, yes, okay, excellent.
I've been asking for this segment for a while. House
I'm telling you it is a walking example of nuts.
Yeah yeah, well um, And it's often a conflict in
(06:15):
couples where one person just has a different place that
conflict in our couple over the but there should be
someone someone's complaining about it all the time and someone
else isn't listening. Oh yeah, I believe. Well, some people
are just clutter. One my sister who's the co host
of the Happier podcast with me, she just like doesn't
see it, you know. She like literally she wouldn't close
the kitchen cabinet door for the rest of her life.
(06:36):
She didn't love at other people. But if you say
where to get started, one one place is not to
get started is don't get started by saying I'm going
to get organized. Because a lot of times when people
decide they want to get organized, they feel this impulse
to run out and buy stuff like complicated hangers or binders.
People love to buy binders or you know, storage containers,
Like first get rid of everything that's just clogging the system,
(06:57):
because you may find that you don't need to get organized.
There's just there's not enough left that needs to be organized.
You can just like put it away. But then that
raises the question of how do you decide what to
keep and what you're relinquished? And you mentioned Marie Condo
and her test is sparked joy. I have to say
that for myself that that works really well for a
lot of people. I just felt like I had many
things in my life that I wouldn't say truly sparked joy,
(07:19):
and yet they were, they were doing their little jobs. Well,
I didn't find for me that was a helpful test.
For me, I say, do I need it? Do I
use it? Do I love it? Because there are things
that I need and use that I don't love, and
there are things that I love that I don't really
use um and I don't really need, but I love them.
So for me, it's that's the test doing What about
what about if it's useful in the zombie apocalypse? I
mean people, Okay, see that is the unknown fature. There
(07:43):
is that's a kind of anticipatory clutter. So okay, so yes, yes, Well,
so one of the things you can do is if
you if you buy things for that So if you're
a person like I need this for the winner, I
need this for for birthday, one thing you can do
is you can say i'm gonna store it at the store.
I'm gonna leave it at the store. They'll hang on
to it for me, and then when I decide if
(08:04):
I need this kind of thermal underwear, I'm gonna go
get it at that point, but for now they're I'm
just gonna let them hang on to it. So that's
a kind of clutter. Then there's accidental stockpiling, which is
when you're like, you can always use a good glass jar,
So I'm going to keep all the good glass jars
that come in to my house. Well, you know, your
family likes pickles, and pretty soon you've got sixty glass jars,
and like, what do you do with them? So if
you're you want to watch out for accidental stockpiling because
(08:25):
then you have a lot of stuff to manage. And
these things are useful in their way, but you have
too many of them. Like my friend who had a
thousand ketchup packets because every time they got food, she's like,
oh'll just throw the ketchup packets in the drawer instead
of saying to the take out people, no condiments. You know,
you don't want to accidentally stockpol you want to avoid
the stockpile. And then there I have to say. You
(08:45):
know how they say with gamblers, you win one time
and it's so exciting and thrilling to you that you
you can't you just go back, go back, go back.
I think for many people who want to keep everything
for the zombie apocalypse, it's like one time somebody came
to them. I was like, do you happen to have
a power chord for fax machine? And you're like, I do,
And you feel so good that you were able to
(09:07):
meet that need that you want to hang onto everything
because you can imagine a fantasy future where it's some
X Y Z thing would come into play. I think
if that is an issue for you and your clutter,
you really need to say, is it reasonably foreseeable that
this thing is actually gonna be useful? If I don't
need it, don't use it, don't love it right now,
why do I think five years from now? I'm gonna
want to use this bread machine, you know, because yes,
(09:29):
it's for and also how much would it cost to
replace it? How difficult would it be to replace this
thing if you gave it away to somebody who's actually
making bread right now, and then you decided in five years, wow,
I really want to make bread. Because a lot of
it is like things are useful now, put them into
the hands of someone who's going to use them now,
and then you may or may not in the future
need them now. If it's your high school diary, that's irreplaceable,
(09:53):
most things are not irreplaceable. Most things can be replaced.
Do you recommend saving your high school diaries? Well, I
think that's a very individual decision. I would keep something
like that because even even symbolically, you know, I think
it's important. But then many people say that they feel
very free when they get rid of those things. Some
some people in this area want to say things aren't important.
(10:13):
This is related to the past. You've got to let
it go, make make room for the future today. This
is not the common experience of man kind. We we
invest possessions with meaning, and they remind us of the
people in places and activities that we love and they
help us project our identity into the into our environment,
so they have an important role to play. But you
want to make sure that like this is actually serving
(10:34):
that purpose. Like what is my feeling about this high
school diary? You know, Um, if it's important to me,
then it's important to me. If it makes me feel
bad every time I look at it and sort of
you know, then get rid of it. There's lots more
when we come back. There is a value I think
(11:00):
of chaos and creativity there. I'm only partially partially jesting
when I said this is an intervention on LISTA. Lisa
will believe stuff around and she somehow knows where they are.
All I see is that people dumb power cord hanging
in the corner there. That's been there and I'm not
sure at some point someone actually has to use it,
but it never clicks to me. In the meantime, it's
(11:22):
irritained to me that it's there. So those are kinds
of things we quipple over. So how do you know
if it's actually If you've got a busy desk, You've
got papers everywhere, but you know where they are and
somehow come in handy. Everyone's blue moon, even though you
never know that that's ever gonna happen. Well, I think
this is a case where you really have to know
yourself in your own process. And there's a fascinating book
called Daily Rituals by Mason Curry, and he just it's
(11:43):
not even daily rituals, it's daily habits. And he goes
through the kind of the habits of these highly successful people, scientists, painters, philosophers, choreographers,
you know. So it's it's all these people and how
they live their lives. And what's very striking is that
these are all extraordinarily productive, creative, intellectual people. But some
work in silence and solitude, and some work in the
(12:04):
middle of a busy studio, and some stay up late
and some get up early, and some drink vodka and
some drink coffee, and some work for half an hour
day and some work for fourteen hours a day. And
what you see is that these people have all figured
out themselves and they know what works for them, and
they don't make sure they have the environment that works
for them, and they stick to that. And so I
think there are absolutely people who find that piles are useful,
(12:24):
doesn't slow them down and unexpected juxtapositions create creativity. And
then there are people who want one laptop and you know,
one pen and one notebook and that's the only thing
on their desk and that's what they need to be productive.
So I really think that when people say like, well
what's the best way, what doesn't really what does that
even mean? Because what your best way? Your best way,
my best way could all be different. So it's more like,
(12:44):
think about, well, what do I need to thrive? Where
do I feel the most creative, productive, calm focused? And
how do I get that environment? I mean, I think
the problem comes when a boss says something like, well,
clutter dusk means a cluttered mind. So in this office,
we're going to have a clear desk policy. But there's
someone like Lisa who works best in a different environment.
And so it's like, why am I forcing as your boss?
(13:05):
Why am I forcing you to work in a way
that works for me? It might not work best for you.
It doesn't have a desk. Yeah, okay, well so there
you go, like to me, the idea I need a desk,
I need hundreds of dusks, you know. And then there
are people who just don't work in enok, and I'm
like a desk? How kicked me off of it? How
can you? Like? How can you work without a desk?
But then but people do and so yeah, I mean
(13:26):
I see people and looking working on their laptops and
airports and it just it just hurts me, hurts me
to see them sitting in that posture. But people, I know,
people have written whole books that way, you know, so
you just don't know what other people. That's me. I
can't do that, love it really, I only have one computer.
I don't want to have information like that all over
(13:47):
the place, not for security reasons. My mind doesn't work. Yes,
there you go. And when desks, I don't want any
drawers maybe one small drawer for knick knacks like paper clips,
paper clips, and then the rest of this has to
be a big wide space. There you go, let's see
it all. Yes. And then when I when I do
check things off the box and then they leave the desk,
they go away. It's like my desktop on the computer.
(14:08):
Same thing I don't actually discard. Most people have ways
of putting Lisa files away, the different emails that come
to her with you. I don't do any of that.
I don't either, and like everything there, yes, So so
I thought thought I was straight. So you're saying to
find out what works? So how do you kick the
tires and figure out if it truly does work for you?
And maybe if you don't mind, explain a little bit
(14:28):
about outer order, this concept that you talk about. Well,
I think that part of it is to say, well,
when do I feel my most comfortable? When am I
getting when am my most productive? Um? And then also
one thing you can say to yourself too is always
helpful question is there a time in the past when
I succeeded better? Because sometimes people are like, oh, well
I did excellent. When I was in college. I would
go to the I would go to the college library,
(14:49):
I would get so much done. It's like, okay, well,
what was it about that environment that was conducive to you?
What what made that feel like the right environment for you?
And then and then if you're sort of like, oh
my gosh, like my open this open office is like
I can't get any work done here, It's like, okay,
is it the solitude is that the other people like,
what is it that's helpful to you? And what's not
helpful to you? Because it might be the different characteristics
(15:10):
of a space or surroundings might be what's helping you
or hurting you. And for out of order, I really
they're one of the things that's interesting about out of
order is that people really want to get to different places.
And so some people, it sounds like you're like me,
are simplicity lovers, and they like bear counters and a
lot of room on the shelf and not much on
the walls and just sort of like lots of simplicity
(15:31):
and space and kind of and quiet. And then there
are abundance lovers, and they love profusion and choice and
collections and a lot going on, and often they do
like piles with that create unexpected juxtapositions. And it's not
that one is right and one is wrong, and one
is efficient or one is creative. It's just that some
people love simplicity and some people love abundance, and even
abundance lovers, I don't think like clutter, because clutter is
(15:53):
stuff that you don't need, don't use, don't love. That's
the charging chords of the device that you got rid
of two years ago. That's the vacuum cleaner that doesn't
really work, so you use the other vacuum. So why
do you have this vacuum if you always use the
other vacuum. It's the fax machine that's not plugged in.
Why do you have a vaxx machine. It's not even
blogged in. You know, get rid of that thing, Um,
get rid of that. That's not abundance. But it is
(16:15):
true that people want to end up with different Like
I don't like you know, how much stuff is on
a coffee table. Some people have a lot of stuff
on a coffee table. They love the way that looks.
I like to visit that. That's not the way my
coffee table looks. Um, because that's not my preference. But
they're because people have different preferences. But about the opposite
extreme of people who are spending their entire life being perfect,
(16:37):
particularly moving things that the book of the coffee table
is that at a right angle to the edge of
the coffee table. Yes, well for some people that's procrastic clearing.
Clearing is when your desire to avoid working on something.
It's it can often manifest and like I need to
vacuum every surface, or you know, I need to go
through my house to make sure everything is that, you know,
is it ninety degree angles, or I need to appetize
(17:00):
books in this bookcase before I can move forward and
writing the annual report. So sometimes you have to be
careful that you're urge to clear is just because working
is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination, because
when we kid ourselves that we're being productive, it's easy
to pretend like we're not actually delaying on what's what
is our true pri priority. And so if you spend
a lot of times, if you're starting to do things
(17:20):
like alphabetize your spices or you know, um, you know,
you feel like this is the time where you need
to go through the deep files and the back cupboard.
You're like, okay, but maybe you need to write the
annual report and then you can tackle those files. You
should do that, but maybe you need to write the
report first. So we're speaking aggression. Reuben New York Times
bestselling author out of Order in our commor newest book,
(17:41):
you you actually arguing the book against being organized in
a way it's counterintuitive. Yeah, Well, it's just that you
don't want to start by thinking that you're going to
get organized, because a lot of times then that becomes
make work where you're you're organizing things that maybe you
don't need, don't use, don't love. Like I was just
talking to somebody on the other day and he was
saying how he was going to organize all his paperwork,
and he was very fired up. He had his binders,
(18:02):
he had his tabbias, three whole punch, he was going
to do this whole thing. And then he realized that
a lot of his paperwork had to do with pet insurance,
and that actually he didn't pet insurance, and that all
of it was online anyway, and he just didn't need
all this paper. Yeah he does have pets, but it's like, Okay,
you don't need you don't need binders and binders and
binders with all your back issues of your pet insurance statements,
(18:24):
and so if you don't bye bye. Saying first what
can I get rid of? What can I give away?
What can I recycle? What can I um toss? You
may not need to get organized um because you just
don't have enough left um. You know. It's it's the
same thing in the kitchen, Like you can spend hours
organizing all your plastic containers, or you can really sit
(18:44):
down and say, like, well, what do I actually use Okay,
maybe I only use five of these things, so I'm
gonna give away everything else. Then the other stuff doesn't
need to be organized. I could just put it on
the shelf because you know, I've gotten rid of everything
I don't need, don't use, don't love. More questions after
the right. There's another concept you speak about that was
(19:13):
sort of foreign to me, which is the idea of
becoming a tourist in your own house. Yes, you know,
I would have thought you want to be most comfortable there,
you know where everything is. Well, be a tourist in
your own home? Is this idea that like a lot
of us have unexplored territories in our house and it's
like what is under the bed in the guest room
I don't know, or maybe there's a bad closet where
it's like stuff goes and then like it's never seen again.
(19:34):
You know where the Bermuda trial of the Attic And
a lot of times, because of decision fatigue, they never
come back. Yeah, they're like, what's up there? Decision fatigue?
It's it's it's it's it takes energy for us to
decide what to do with something. And so for a
lot of people, the way this comes out is it's like, well,
I'll just keep it, rather than deciding, Okay, my kids
are out wearing their clothes, I'm going to decide what
(19:55):
am I going to keep as a hand me down?
What am I going to give away? What is really
just too gross? I'm just gonna like that just rags,
you know, I'm just gonna put it all in a
box and stick in the garage and I'll deal with
it later. So be a tourist in your own home
is like, really visit those places. I mean, you know
here I was writing the book and I'm like, what
are in the cupboards above my refrigerator? I haven't been
up there in a while. Well, there was a lot
of good stuff up there, which I completely forgot about
(20:16):
because um, I had not visited. So being a tourist
is like go, like you know, like a stranger to
all those unexplored areas in your own home, and you
will often find things that you can need, that you
need and use and you're glad to have, or that
you're like, well, I don't even I don't I certainly
don't need this because I didn't even remember it was here.
It's time to give it away. Do you have a
technique for preventing us from accumulating all that stuff? Because
(20:40):
is there a way to sort when it's coming in?
Really just ignore just when you feel that urge, like
it's just easier to put it away, Like be very
careful about storing things when you're like, I'm just gonna
store this, because unless it's something like holiday decorations or
seasonal clothing, storing something suggestsful, I'm just gonna put it
away and I don't really need to get it out.
It's like it's going into just some the basement, the attict,
(21:03):
the garage. Some gigantic percentage of Americans don't can't park
their their cars in their garages because they're so full
of stuff. So when you start just mindless leaking, that
sounds really very well, you're among you're among good company.
But we were unique. Yeah no wait, I'm sorry. Which
the garage and I parkeding. We could not park a
(21:25):
second card because because you like so much space, man
spreading in your garage doesn't he doesn't want to have
to open the door carefully. Yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
don't need baby carriages that for children who are now
in college, see this is a perfect example that, Okay,
something like a baby carriage, so you keep it because
it seems useful there will be another child in the family.
(21:45):
But the fact is, no an actual baby, you would
buy a new one because first of all, the technology
has changed so dramatically, and second of all, it's been
sitting in your garage for twenty years. You have, like
your precious new baby. You're not gonna put your baby
in a twenty year old thing that's been in there
with the spiders crawling all over it. So that's the
kind of thing where to say, like, maybe it's a
precious memory. Take a picture of it. Oh remember this
baby carriage. I remember the stroller so many happy memories.
(22:07):
Take a picture. You have the picture. But I believe
I really do not think that you're going to use
a twenty year old stroller. No, he thinks they're twenty
year olds. They're actually from our most recent grandchild. They're okay,
So they're okay, get recycled among grandkids normally complaining that
we buy so many new things, where why don't you
use the one from the last grand What doesn't want
(22:31):
any baby carriage in there? If you take up a
lot of space. I I went through this because I
live in New York City in an apartment, so the
stroller had to be right by the front door, like
there's no way place to put it, and it just
drove me crazy. But of course now I'm like, oh,
the days are long, but the years are short. Remember
the days of the stroller. Give us a bit of
a pep talk, because you're right about happy and you
(22:51):
make the argument that addressing clutter, yes, well it's not
a shore. It's something that will lift you, yes, And
the fact is from a people, it really is, even
if it's kind of a struggle while you're doing it,
or like you might find the decision fatigue a little
tiring while you're doing it, for most people there is
just a sense of exhilaration. My sister, my co host
(23:12):
on the Happier podcast, My sister listally calls me a
happiness bully because I can be kind of insistent when
I think there's ways for people to become happier, and
I beg my friends to let me come over and
help them clean their closets because I get such a
contact hie from seeing like how charged up they get.
You know, you feel so good um. When you get
(23:33):
like part of it is what you said, Lisa, When
you get rid of that stuff that's dragging you down,
you feel that lift and people will say, oh my gosh,
Like a friend of mine said, I finally cleaned out
my fridge and now I know I can switch careers.
It's like, I know that feeling. It feels so good,
and so I think I'm part of what I wanted
to do with this book is like get people fired up,
you know, like you you start getting into it and
you're like, oh, I can't even I can't even read anymore.
(23:55):
I have to run to the medicine cabinet, or I
have to run, um, you know, to that to that
shelf that's just got a bunch of stuff jammed in it,
because I know I'm gonna feel so good when it
gets cleaned out. Yeah, Jum. You said something though, in
that last statement, which was that you go over and
help your friends. I think it's so much easier with
another person. We'll see. This is interesting because some people
really find it easier to do alone, but many, many
(24:17):
people benefit from a companion. I think part of it
is because there's the accountability of somebody to sitting there.
Like sometimes I go and I'm helping a friend and
I'm just like sitting on the bed drinking coffee while
they muttered themselves and put you know, because they just
need somebody to keep them on task, and my presence
does that. Sometimes people help you make decisions like what
do you think about this? Sometimes people also, I've noticed
(24:38):
with things that are emotionally important to us, like um,
having somebody else kind of witness your appreciation for something
can help you loosen your grip on it. So like
if you're like if you say to your friends, oh
my gosh, I remember this dress. This is when I
just first moved to New York City and we were
going to this fancy thing and I got this dress
and it was exactly what I wanted and I got
it off, and like I remember that day so well,
(24:59):
and they're like such a happy memory. That is so great.
I remember those days. And then you're like, yeah, that
was great, but now I don't need the dress anymore.
As sometimes you need somebody to kind of have that
conversation with you, to kind of testify to the role
that possessions can play, and then that helps loosen your
grub so I think, I think it can be really
helpful to have a person with you. Actually made me
(25:20):
very happy to hear more from Russia and the Times
best selling book out Order Intercom de Clutter and Organized
to make one Room for Happiness. She also has the
Happier podcast because Your beat Up, her sister Happiness Bullying.
Thanks for joining us. Thank you,
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.