July 25, 2023 • 52 mins
Arshay grew up on the West Side of Chicago and his life was forever changed when he joined the first all-black high school rowing team in the nation (and became the captain). As an adult, Arshay found success as a chef before returning to his true passion by starting inner-city rowing teams. He’s the author of “A Most Beautiful Thing,” which was made into a critically-acclaimed documentary by Common, Dwayne Wade, and Grant Hill.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks.
And we continue now with part two of our conversation
with Rha Cooper right after these brief messages from our
generals sponsors. I remember the first time I heard the
(00:30):
term white privilege, and it pissed me off because I
didn't feel real privilege. And I'm white as hell. I mean,
I'm redheaded, light skin, I'm white. They ain't no mistaken
this whiteness. And I grew up in apartments. I did
describe to you a little bit about how I grew up.
(00:54):
You know, I went to school with the uncool clothes
on because those were the cheapest things that my mom
could afford. You know, back in the day in the
South Baswegians, penny loafers were the thing, and they were
like fifty dollars, and back then fifty dollars a lot
of money for shoes. Well, we went to the knockoff
place and bought the twelve dollars shoes because that's all
(01:16):
we could afford. And you know, I remember feeling even
more in security from everything my life was, but also
a lot of the times how I had to dress
and the things that available and you know, people having
friends over. And I was very careful about which friends
I had over because I lived in an apartment or
condominium and everybody else had these school houses with two parents,
(01:39):
and you know, so I didn't feel like I was privileged.
And so when I heard white privilege, I'm like, who
the hell are you talking about. You don't know nothing
about me, and it insulted me. And I'm going to
tell you, on the face of it, there's a lot
of white folks who hear the term white privilege and
(02:00):
they think about the struggles they've gone into their lives
to get where they are that initially are insulted by it,
and as a result, dismissed that term as woke bs
because they take it personally. It was. It took me
(02:20):
a long time, but it was. It was. It took
me a while to understand that white privilege was not
a term used to personally attack or diminish the things
I've had to go through from my life to find success. Rather,
it was a term that was used more to try
(02:44):
to explain the plight of a lot of inner city
black and brown people, not again to compare or diminish
what some white person did that came up but to say,
there is a difference oftentimes in that plight. So I'll
get to my question minute. But I got to put
(03:06):
one more layer on this. My pastor Tim Russell, who
passed during COVID, one of the greatest mentors I've ever had,
one of the smartest men I've one of the most
well rassd I helped him move his house one time,
and he had two bedrooms full of books. I'm talking
(03:27):
about room's dog full of books and he had read
them all. And his dad was a police officer up
in Pennsylvania, and he was a theologically trained that seminary
pastor in the Presterian Church. And all I can tell
you is think James Earl Jones, booming voice, balled, black, proud, brilliant,
(03:56):
wonderful man. And I would tell you he is the
closest relationship I've ever had with the pastor, and we
had lots of real talk. He moved to Memphis from
up there to start a school called the Memphis Center
for Urban Theological Seminary, trying to help pastors from the
inner city who are certainly on fire for God and
(04:16):
church but didn't really have the full theological seminary background,
especially with regard to the New Testament, to teach that,
to equip them to go back to their churches and
teach that. So he was the president of that and
we became very very good friends. The whole reason I'm
telling you all of this is this, when he and
(04:38):
I were deep in conversation one time, the white privileged
thing came up and I told him how bad it
bothered me, and it angered me and I took it
personally and it discounted all I'd done in my life
to overcome obstacles, and that I wasn't down with it.
He looked at me and he said, you've been to
(04:59):
a black dentist And I said no. And he said
you have been to a black doctor and I said no.
I did go to mergency room one time and the
doctor was from India. And he said, so you can
think of one time you've been to a non white
doctor and I said, yeah, I guess. So he said
you have been to a black attorney and I said no,
(05:22):
and he said why not? And I said, I don't
know that I ever cared if anybody was black or white,
but I went to who I know or who my
family knew or what was available to me. He said,
there's not a black person in the world that hasn't
at one time in their life had to depend on
a white dentist, a white doctor, a white attorney or
(05:43):
something like that, or some professional that they had to
go to a white person for those things. And he said,
that's white privilege. He said that that doesn't mean anything
to you, or about you or anything thing you've done.
And he said, but you have a privilege as a
(06:04):
white person that you can that things and people and
services are available to you in the way that you
want them by people that you are comfortable with that
simply aren't available to black people in our country. That
doesn't diminish you. It's just trying to explain where a
black person might be coming from. And it rocked me
(06:28):
when he said that. Talk to me about your perspective
of the term white privilege from a man who grew
up in the West Side Chicago.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, you know, I didn't, and I don't want to
skip anything. I didn't even think about it until I
started rowing, and I didn't really think about it because
it was so much navigating through the West Side of
Chicago that I can even imagine not getting through anything
(06:57):
else or what other people was going through. But it
didn't mean when it you know, it wasn't people wasn't
using nowhere white privilege back when I was young. But
you know the first time I noticed it, and it
had nothing to do with money or you know, work
ethic or anything like that. I we were sharing a
(07:18):
boat house with a private school and there was a
gas station on Clark Street by the Lincoln Park two
by the Lincoln Park Lagoon where we rowed. And for
me and my team, the group of black guys, we
will always ask that you guys have to come in
one at a time because we can't watch you and
(07:42):
we don't know if anyone will take something or still.
I was like, oh man, okay, okay, but we wanted
we need a sack. So we were just always going
one at a time. And we were talking about this later,
but as we got friendly with the private school kids
and it didn't start off that way at first. These
kids were from Senegnatius and were walking and we saw
(08:03):
them all go in as a group, and I was like, hey,
we have to go in one at a time. You
guys can go in as a group. He's like yeah, yeah,
He's like, you guys have to come in one at
a time. And I, one of the kids was like,
and this comes in with like being an ally. He
was like, no, that's not cool. Come in with us,
and let's see if they say something, you know. And
we went in with them and they didn't say anything.
(08:23):
No one said anything. But that was the rule for us.
The same cashire what year? This was nineteen ninety nine, and.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
We ain't talking sixty four. No, no, no, no, I
know that, but I just want to make the point. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
And that's when I felt like there's a different kind
of privilege here. And then that's when we began to
have more conversations when I said, hey, I've never been
suspended from school. I never broke a plate in my life.
I have never got in trouble, and I even talked
back to my mom. I have pleasure to lead just
to the flag every morning. I have recited the preamble,
(09:01):
I said the Declaration of Independence, passed that task with
goosebumps in my spine, and I have my face pressed
down the police card numerous of times, and ask the
guys that we roll with from saying nations. Have this
ever happened to them? And they said no, And I
was like, I volunteer more than you guys. I feel
more American than you guys. I do all kind of
I go to church. But it never happened to them.
(09:24):
And I felt like.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Let me ask something. Where you dressed like a thug?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I not mean, but I guess we had dressed like
a thug.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I asked that question on purpose that way, Yeah, speak
to it. What does that feel like when a white
dude says, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Dress like a thug? I'm like, what does that even mean?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
There you go?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's like
who decides who dressed like a thug? Right?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
You know why I said that? You said because that's
what people thinking.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
That's what people are thinking.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Here's the thing. Hold hold it? Do you have a
hood on? Jeb Dreads dressed like a thought? No one
was hold it, corn Roach dressed like a thought. I'm
just I'm just equating. I know, Yeah, we'll talk about it,
talk about it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
You know we had big jeans, right.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, thugs wear big chains. I see it on wrap stuff.
I can't listen to music or even understand the words
but I know those thugs were big, big old chains.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, we couldn't afford the chains. But here's the thing.
We left practice. We had basketball shorts and jerseys on.
At some point we still had rowing clothes on, and
we had our head bands.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Right, well, that's gangster. Just spell what I'm saying. Doing
all of this, Yes, you understand.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, all the things
that Nike sells all athletes wear in America. In America, yeah,
we were wearing and damn thugs. We were considered thugs.
And the same guys who showed up into this foreign sport,
(11:05):
who trained six days a week and took entrepreneurship classes,
we couldn't walk into the same grocery store as others.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
That's white privilege. Now does that speak bad about a
white person or not at all? Try to explain your reality,
that's all it is.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Because the guys who went to the grocery store done
nothing wrong. They just walked into the grocery store.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
The white kids, they didn't do anything wrong. It doesn't
mean anything against them. Is just trying to explain your reality.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
And we didn't even get mad at them. The fact
that they can go in. Now, he's not their fault.
It's not their fault, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So you're saying them being white is not their fault,
no more.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Than being black.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But one group is looked at penalized differently than the other.
Both engaged in the same sport, at the same place,
in the same city, the same store.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
And I know people think it's, you know, shaky conversation,
but that's why people say, I feel like I'm living
in a different America.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Bro, It's time we start having shaky conversations in this
country that are real, that are civil, non threatening and respectful,
but real.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And that's what I learned through sports, and you know,
in football, basketball, that to accomplish anything, you are uncomfortable
the whole time. You're courageous. But these conversations are uncomfortable,
but it give us the results that.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So our listeners heard this Row stuff and they got
to be thinking row. Black folks don't row.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I said that, I know.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So I guess it's time that we advance from eleven
years old and get to the rowing. So people even
understand why you're at the store and why you're wearing
Row clothes. And man, there's some of the stuff I've
read that I cannot help, and I don't even know
if I'm supposed to laugh, but Lord have mercy. Some
(13:04):
of your partners said some funny stuff, so we're going
to share that too. But first a few messages from
our sponsors. At around eleven twelve, you noticed this family
(13:39):
dynamic change, and your stepdad is gone and your mom
is an addict in the street and you're living with grandparents. Right,
So I remember reading that you pretty much felt like
your mom was going to die, so you disassociated yourself
from her and just kind of let her die in
(14:01):
your mind, preparing yourself for her to be going and
dealing with that trauma as well, going to school, your
grandmother kind of I guess, stepping in and trying to
keep you right, and then showing up at school one
day and there's a boat. So I'm gonna shut up
(14:23):
and let you take us from about eleven to the
first boat day.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, so you know, my you know, my mom eventually
went into recovery, and that in itself was like, Wow,
if God can change that one, he can change anything,
you know, That was my first thought. But you know,
she was, you know, amazing when she went to a
(14:48):
Christian recovery home, and God changed her life and we
had devotion every morning. But I think Rowan came to
me because of her, because when she left her recovery,
she said that I think it's scripture. She said to me,
she said, your gift will making room for you and
put you in the presence of great men. I never
(15:10):
forgot that. I didn't know what that meant unless she's crazy,
But always thought about that. My high school graduate, less
than fifty percent of his senior class every year sent
ten percent to college, the second most file in the
high school in Westie, Chicago at that time. In the
school mainly high school right and to get to school
(15:33):
was rough. It was. It was hard. You had to
go through so many different gangs to even get to
the school, walking walking, and fights every day all the
time in the school, outside and in the school. Go
through the metal detectives, you see nice and screws drivers
on the table.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
A Memphis bus driver will tell you he has not
paid well enough to break up fights on the bus.
So oftentimes school buses riding down the road with people
fight in the back of it. It just happens. It
just happens, and it's the same way, there, the.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Same way, and thinking of all this craziness happening. I
walk in the lunch room one day and I see
a white boat. I was like, what the heck is
this like? And I'll stopped and looked at it. I've
never seen a boat before.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And you've seen pictures of ive seen pictures.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
But never like, yeah, like live, I've never seen a boat.
And I stopped and I stared and it's and and
uh And I stopped staring, and this white lady hit
my shoulders.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
She's like, hey, how many white people? A lot of
white people put it, teachers, administrators, students.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
At my school. Maybe you saw two white teachers. Not
a lot of white teachers there.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And how many students in the whole school? Nine hundred maybe,
so we're talking a quarter of one white people. Yeah,
and there's a white chick in the hallway with a
boat in a lunch room. Might as well have been
a marsh Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
You know, my mind is tripping because she said, hey,
was you want to be a part of the crew team.
I was like, my crew, like you're taught, someone asked
you to join the crew running the other way as
fast as you can. What you know, like, what is this?
There's so many different crews. That's the white lady started
a crew like, I'm like, what is crew broke?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
You know?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And she said, let me show you and I have
to say this bill. She walked me up to the
boat and behind the boat was a TV monitor and
they was showing the Olympic Games. And it looked so beautiful,
people growing, and it looks so meditative, and it looked
(17:42):
like an opportunity. But because no one on the screen
looked like me or the world I was used to,
I said no to the opportunity and walked away and
I sat next to my friend. I can you believe
like they're trying to get us on Lake Michigan. We
don't even swim?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yea that there's okay? First one that you know, I mean,
I guess off we should probably share our favorite white
people joke black people. But I mean one of the
one of the things is black folks don't swim, right.
Well that's crazy, of course, yes, But the point is
(18:20):
when you grow up in West Side Chicago trying to
come up with your next meal, you ain't taking swimming
lessons with the YMCA. No. No, Now, the other thing
that's interesting is you say you've never seen a boat,
and you're in Chicago, which happens to beyond like one
of the biggest lakes in the world full of boats.
How far is West Side from that lake?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Five miles? Four miles, five miles?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
But you never went over there, never been Why didn't
you go over there?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Just well, first of all, thinking about going across the neighborhoods,
nobody to get on the train to see it, you know,
just never even thought of it. I couldn't even see
past what my circumstances.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So my first year NASES, I loaded up a busload
of kids at Nassas, which is much like your high school,
and I took them out to the county to play
in a football game. And it was the first time
most of my team had been out of Shoby County.
We got off, started warming up and the football field
(19:19):
was out in the middle of a field and back
behind the bleachers kind of in the end zone. After
warm ups, where we went and sat for fifteen minutes
to get ready to play the game, and was up
against cotton Field and two of my players looked over
and said Coach Bill Man that they got that cotton,
(19:39):
and I said, yeah, and it dawned on me. They'd
never seen a plant outside of just the bushes. And
I mean, they'd never seen a farm, they'd never seen
a field, they never seen cotton. So much of what
anybody would just normally just take for absolutely granted, they'd
(20:01):
never seen. And this is We're in Memphis, this is
where I mean, this is the largest concentrating hub in
the world here in Memphis, and these guys had never
seen it because they'd never been more than three miles
away from the house, which I didn't understand until they
explained to me it's dangerous to walk out their house.
So talk about that. The point is, you had never
(20:23):
seen a boat. You were five miles from a mecca
of boats in your own city, and you wouldn't even
dare go to that nice part of the city because
you couldn't even get there safely.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
You couldn't even get to the next neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
How we're talking blocks.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I mean, yeah, three blocks, four blocks.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
You would not go through.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You can't go past five blocks. Ganges wasn't It wasn't
different communities, it wasn't different neighborhoods. It was blocks, five blocks,
is the vice lord. The next block is conservative vice board,
next five blocks is the renegade vice lords. Then it's
the gangs's disciples. And so if you're in a car
or if you're a US with your friends while collective
of gangs are getting on every four stops, that's why
(21:05):
gangs happen, because I mean gang fights happened because there's
four different gangs on one bus heading to the same school,
you know what I mean, And you can't get caught.
You can't be caught over there. And then if you're
on the train, if you say I want to take Ano,
you know, I'm just gonna hop on a train and
do this amazing adventure and go see the serious towers. No,
it's not happening because on that bus the zoo, because
(21:27):
on that bus may be a different gang.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And that's the museum.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes, And you hear so many stories growing up. It's like,
don't everything is don't go over there, don't go over there,
don't go over there, don't go over there. So you're
not gonna go over there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And if you have to go through quote there to
go to the seious Tower, to go to Lake Michigan
to go to a museum, the zoo and all of
these learning opportunities. You and West Side ain't going Yeah, yep, yep,
(22:00):
you roll up on a white woman with a boat
in the cafeteria. Yep.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
And I said, Preston, we ain't doing this at the
at the Love for the Table and he was. He
was a bit of conspiracy theorist too, he was. He
was like, yeah, you know, I remember him saying this.
I wrote about this. He's like, yeah, this is you know,
this is how the white people kill us. Like why
would they want us to do this? And I was like,
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying I don't think
we should be on the boat. And uh, you know
(22:26):
he was. He said something funny. He's like, think about it,
think about it. I'm thinking he's about to say something.
And he's like, even the boats are white, bro. And
I was like, come on.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Man, oh didn't he say something one of you. Somebody
said a funny line about a slave ship.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Oh yeah, that was Malcolm. They said they're gonna have
you guys out there on slave ships, these white people.
You're like, oh, yeah, that's true. And uh but I
tell you on that day you've seen no. They had
a sheet of paper that says sign up. No one
signed up. And then then day the boat's still there
walking a launch room and I see a lot of
(23:04):
people signing up and I'm like, what the heck is
going on? Sign up? You get free Chicago pizza. And
I was like, oh, man, you know, like anything about
this lunchroom food, you know, And people are signing up
and I sit next to Press and Press like I
think we sign up, you know what I mean? And
it was because of the pizza and this girl. I
(23:26):
was like, I'll go girl. Yeah, it's this girl named Grace. Man,
Like I had a crush on her. I was like, pressing,
I'll go if you can hook me up with this
girl Grace. And he was like you have no shot,
Like she's cheerleader, a student, Like you have no shot,
you know what I mean. I was like, well, I'll go, man,
Because he really wanted to go for the pizza. So
(23:46):
you know, he made that happen.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
But we still ain't talking about Rowan. We're talking about
pizza and girls, yeah, and anything else. A normal fifteen,
sixteen year old kid was thinking about.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking about.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
But it's funny to me. I mean, you could see
a scene in the movie with you and a couple
of buddies sitting around the lunchroop table talk about the
boat's white, they gotta they go to like a slave
ship row and we don't swim and all of that,
And it's hilarious that there's about twelve different stereotypes rolled
(24:21):
up all into that one conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, all stereotypes, I mean, and that was Yeah, that
was the first thing that popped up, popped up in
our minds, you know, and it was all of us,
and that's the reason, and it was different for everyone.
That's why everyone said, Noah didn't sign up.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Do you know how uncomfortable white people are talking to
black people about those stereotypes? Yeah, you know why they're
afraid they're gonna of ffind you. And so because I'm
afraid of political correctness, wokeness, cancel culture and that I'm
gonna offend you. Now, I can't talk to you about that.
So how are you and I ever gonna get to
(24:58):
understand each other and grow together if we cannot have
those conversations.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
No, that's it's correct, And I think and that's what
I love, you know. I know we get into this
about our coach, Jewish guy, he's the rowing coach. It
was all about like the human connection right away, like
questions like what kind of piece do you love? Have
(25:24):
you ever traveled? He came by our home the first
time before we even joined the team.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
White dude, that's first white guy I ever went in
your house? I bet yeah. Anybody, Well, he didn't get
in most of the houses. It is like he ain't
coming to here, you know what I mean, that's the truth.
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
He's like front door, door cracked open, the chains still
on the lock.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
How can I help you? You know?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
And I think for remember some of our families from
the South, and they had their experience, but something that
was like I'm not delivering my kid into this space.
You know how I grew up, you know, and it
came from a place of safety, you know, and for
some and fear and fear.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And this is I'm using this word specifically. Also ignorance,
not stupidity, just being ignorant of any of that world.
Because if you can't get exposed to it, how do
you understand it?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
How do you understand it?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, it's yeah. And remember because I never seen a
boat up close, and uh, and now you want to
put my kids on it, you know. And it was
the same for them. And back to your what you
were saying, the human connection, the questions even you know,
it wasn't just that it was a boat or I
(26:39):
wanted to be in the water. It was his spirit.
When I went up to that info session after the school,
the first to get that pizza, and having a woman coach.
There was a lot of women I saw coaching boys,
and most of us was raised by women. We felt
comfortable with women.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Now that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And I was a sensitive kid and I felt like
women got me in a way that some men didn't.
And then he had a black man who didn't know
nothing about rowing, but he knew the community. But he
was still a coach, and the leadership kind of reflected
the diversity.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
We'll be right back. Talk briefly about this guy, this
(27:38):
crazy white dude. The idea was to go in the
inner city. It's one thing for white dude to go
on in the inner city and coach football or basketball or
whatever what we're talking about rowing.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
And a bunch of schools said no. He tried, he
went to different school that we wasn't a first place. No,
we was in the first place. And you know, he
came and I think he had a conversation with someone
he was trying to get to volunteer, Michael Gorman, and
Michael saying no, I'm not volunteering Mike. I think Mike
was kind of like making a joke, Hey, if you
start a rowing team on the West Side Chicago, maybe
(28:12):
I volunteer, you know, and uh, crazy can did it.
And I think what was special about him, Coach Bill,
was that it wasn't about him he made He took
the time to hire a diverse staff with women and
people of color, to also learn from them, right and
(28:37):
understand that, you know, we came from different situations and
he won't be maybe the only person that we will
respond to that maybe the parents will respond to Coach Victor,
or maybe some of the moms will respond to Jessica differently,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
But this is an average dude. I mean, he went
to the University of Pennsylvania and was on the crew team.
But you know, this is just not a guy who
was anointed to go out and start road to the
city he found it in his heart and said, you know,
the commitment that disciplined, the hard work, the teamwork, the
effort that comprises a good row team are all tenants
(29:12):
and fundamentals that would be great for these kids in
westside Chicago to learn. So I want to teach them rowing,
but I want them to grow through learning how to row.
And he included a one day a week entrepreneurship thing. Right, So,
I mean you talk about an army and normal folks.
He's won.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah. Yeah, he's a trader, has a kid, newly married.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And finds himself in the West side of Chicago trying
to teach a bunch of inner city kids.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah yep. And and I gave it a shot. And
I tell you Bill, the the first time he went
out there was rough.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
The first time he went out where on the water
we went out there? So okay, So so hang on,
you sign up for the team because you got the pizza,
and because Grace is you like.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
What it looks like and so all that, and they
have machines.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I want to make sure you get married, Grace good.
I just I don't want to be talking about no
like all that. Watch my business. So how many of you.
I didn't ever understand how many of you have now
actually signed up to be on the road team.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Was about twenty one. Sorry.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
How many people fit in a boat?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Eight or four?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Eight or four? So there's four man boats, eight man boats.
So there's twenty one kids from the West side Chicago.
How many of those twenty one kids literally could swim?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I think it was like two.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah, and you're gonna stick them on the in some water.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
None of them ain't ever even seen a boat, yep.
And so you'd say, well, that first day was rough, Well,
I guess so, bro it was a damn mess. I
bet it was as bad as a super saying. So
tell me about that day. Ill you about how you're
fifteen fifteen all right, so you're fifteen, can't swim? Twenty
(31:11):
one of you and they put your out in a boat. Yes,
and these boats, y'all are not don't think of speed
butter are they like eighteen inches?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So eighteen inches like a canoe, a big long, pointy
canoe that can that can turn over, it can flip,
you know what I mean? They put you in it.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, I mean we had life jackets, but that still
doesn't mean anything, you know, And we had some rth.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Where was it? Where's the water?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
It was the Lincoln Park Lagoon. It's it's which is
a place that you never went to right downtown.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
You never even saw it before, saw it before. So
you ain't never been a boat. You can't swim. You
really don't know these folks. And they put you in
a boat you've never been in, and a life jacket
that you really don't know how to use, and water
you can't swim in, and a place that you can't
get to from your neighbor hood and say, ro ro,
I bet it, I bet it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
They pushed us out.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
We didn't move.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
That's what I said. The line in the book. One
of the kids outside, I gotta call him out, but
he's my boy, Deshaun Benson. He starts crying, and I
was like, man, I know you don't have the gang
shootouts you saw and you like you go outside the
next day the next moment, you know, and you cried
(32:31):
in a boat that's so different, you know. And I remember,
we wouldn't move. They said, hey, let's go. We wouldn't move,
and they had to pull us back in. What do
you mean we sat there we was like, well no,
and they pulled us back in and I felt, gosh,
the leader in me was like man like they I
(32:54):
felt like these culches. They wasn't disappointed, but they just
they were looking at me. They were looking at each
other like did we get ourselves into you know? I
saw it in their face and I felt bad. And
there was a little time between. Grace is not there, thank.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
You, because she would have never made no time with
you watching in the boat.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And that was a little bit of time between where
we started taking swim lessons, where we got on the
row machine, and we went to the University of Wisconsin
to sit on a tank. A tank is like a
pool where you have a fake boat in and you
learn how to move together.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Okay, so how long from that first we ain't moving
day too when you could actually row a boat together?
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Like a month. Maybe it was the time they said
we gotta, we gotta, we got to back up here,
we got to back up here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.
It was rowing machines, rowing machines and got it, having conversations.
We felt like a part of the team, and it
was like guys who didn't make who were athletic, but
didn't make the football team, basketball team, baseball team. Those
(33:57):
were the guys that were there and and I remember
it was we felt so connected. We started to learn
more about each other. And we went out there the
next time and they pushed us out first. The first
thing I thought about was like, wow, just go to
go from seeing dirt and concrete every day to water
(34:21):
and grass changed everything for me. When it was like
the same survival mode. When we pushed out and started
rowing in pairs, it was like the same survival mode
that told us that if you hear a gunshot, run
told us in order to get back to the docks safely,
you have to pull for each other. And in order
(34:43):
to pull for each other, you have to shut up
and listen. And the culture saying, sit tall, breathe, you
belong here. With every stroke, you started to develop this
magical rhythm. And that's when you start to feel the
magic in the boat. You began to really download that
serenity and you see the downtown view and before it
(35:05):
becomes a sportive competitiveness, it becomes a sportive meditation. And
I felt like wow, like this is the first sport
that kind of like calm that's calming the storm in
me because I tried other sports and I was rowed up. Well,
I was angry because I wasn't that good, but it
was non combative and like non conflict and for me personally,
(35:27):
because impact scared me, gunshots, being chased or being punched.
Like I felt like like this may be something that's
that that is great for me. But it wasn't like
an introduction to sports. It was like an introduction to wellness.
And that's when I fell in love with it.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I remember reading that you said looking at the Sears
Tower from the water, sitting in that boat, which maybe
the first time you ever truly felt serenity. I'm using
I don't think you use the words serenity, but tell
me about that.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, you know, I think I only saw the top
of the City's tower from the west side of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
That was my only view, and it must have been
no different than as you've explained. You can see the
top of it, but it wasn't any different looking at
the moon. You were never getting that.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
You would never get here exactly, yep. And I felt
I never felt so close to you because my dream
was to see downtown, but I never felt so close
to my dream than that day.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
How ridiculous is it that a kid growing up in
West Side Chicago, five miles from downtown has a dream
to be able to go across five miles just to
see downtown. That is not a That should not be
a dream. That should be just an assumption.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I have to tell you this Bill. I went to
a school and I'm skipping a little bit, but I
spoke at a school in Harlem and I asked all
these young black men what was their dream? And everyone
was saying in like NFL player, basketball player. But I
went to one kid and he said, to eat at Chipotle,
and people started laughing. Chipotle, that's it. That was his dream,
(37:17):
that was his dream. And the way he looked at
me with his eyes like water in his eyes, I
was like, this kid is serious. And after that I
went up to the school council. I said, here's twenty dollars.
You have to make sure he eats at Chippole. Yeah,
And he was like, you don't have to do it.
I said, no, you don't understand. If you can eliminate
the small dream, there's room for bigger dreams, there's room
(37:39):
for more dreams. I couldn't see past going down to Chicago,
going like like I couldn't see passed the dream of
downtown Chicago. That's that was the only one I had
because it seems so out of reach. And the moment
Coach took me down there, I was like, dude, we
gotta go out of town. And so Coach was eliminating
the small dreams and then that was room for more
(38:02):
and that was just a powerful and it took me
back to that moment when I saw this kid who
dream was only to eat at Chipotle because everyone talked
about it and said, I'll be going to Chippole, but
he just couldn't. And these kids are limited it to
their dreams and they can't see past that.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
And if your dream is to simply go see the
Seerus Tower, that's a different dream than a fourteen year
old in another part of the country that has a
dream to be a doctor. I dream to be an accountant,
a dream to go to college, a dream to get
married and have children in a house. That's the things
(38:40):
that thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year old could shud
be dreaming out, not to go five miles away from
their house, just to see the seious tower. And when
the dreams are so small and should be so and
are so assumptive, how do we ever expect people from Weside,
(39:00):
Chicago to do anything, or Harlem or wherever. Pick a
neighborhood in your city, Baltimore, you know what I'm talking about.
I mean, the point is, if you can't dream beyond
five miles from your house because you're afraid to walk
the ten blocks to get to get there, how in
(39:25):
the world can you ever dream about being anything other
than what you are and what you see every day?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
And that's why I appreciate people like Can yourself and
many others, because people will say, how come there's not
more black people are fencing, or black people are growing,
or because it's hard to dream about something you know
nothing about, you know, And that's funny.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think Chris Rock talks about his daughter fencing, which
is which is funny because one of the things he
was talking about is you know, yeah, I got black
girls that fence, and he's like unicorn, you know. But
the thing is, it is funny. It does speak to
(40:08):
about a thousand stereotypes, but it's also desperately sad that
a black kid fencing is such or a black kid
growing is such a odd thought that it's laughable. That
that speaks to why we have continued generational problems in
(40:32):
places like by such cargo, And it also speaks to
why your story is so freaking amazing because you broke
that cycle from the seat in a little skinny white boat.
We'll be right back. You started figuring out what you
(41:08):
were doing, and you're practicing every day.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yep, we're practicing every day.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Now. I don't know this. I get your practicing Like
when we practice summer in spring football, we're practicing for
the season, and you practice a week between games. I
don't know what a is it a meat? What's a
row competition called?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
It's called retta?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Okay, So so you regatta. So you got these kids
from west Side that are practicing for their first regatta. Now,
from that first practice to the first regatta, how much time.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Do you have, oh man? For some I mean you
have a few months, for some people some months. It
really depends on it.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
So it's are we talking about we got to get
ready for our first red?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Now when people in your high school see you talking
about rowing and talking about going to regatta. They have
got to be folks looking at you crossover.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, wait a minute, isn't that a cheese? But I
know that's rita, that's ricata.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah yeah, no, man, that ain't nothing. My mama got
a buick for gotta right. But for real, people had
in school had to be kind of looking at your gracey. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
They were like, man, we were walking and you would
see the guys making a beat on the locker and
they were saying, roll roll, roll your books. It was
like they gave us a hard time. Yeah, that's not
a real sport. What are you guys doing down there?
You know what I mean? And no one took it serious.
And when I say it was like there was three
(42:58):
things that was tough. It was not one the school
laughing at us, didn't take it serious. The school, the kids,
school kids, and then a mixture of parents and some
of the coaches like this is a million dollar contracts.
After this, it's like, what are you doing. It's not
a real sport. If you want to make some money
for your family, do a ball sport.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Yeah, I got I got it. I got news for you.
How many million dollar contracts came out of the high
school that you went to one out of period years
years one years, I mean.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Mainly been there. I don't know, maybe mainly been there
for sixty seven year. We had one NBA player.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Sixty years yep, right times nine hundred kids. Wow, okay,
that's fifty four thousand. That's one wow in fifty four
thousand odds. Wow, you're gonna get a million dollar contract
one kids. My guess is you have a better chance actually.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Going to go. You just gave me some new material built.
They will just you know a mill there.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Marked train said, there's truth, there's damn truth, and then
there's stats. Well, there's your status there you go.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Right and uh and so so yeah, it was that
and then a mixture of it, like I told your
parents teaching, and then it was like the boat house.
No one told these twenty one black boys from the
West side of Chicago that you're going to be sharing
a boat house with a couple, like a couple of
private schools.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
What's a boat house, I don't know what that is.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
A boat house is where I don't know nothing about
from boat houses where you house the boats. You go
in there and it's like forty boats are they your
boats or no, the boats belong to the private schools
know about. We don't own a boat. Were borrowing boats
from some of the proms, from some of the private schools.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
And then they're giving you their ragged as practice, the
oldest boat that you can find, and some are they
called oars or whatever oars? They probably some broke.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Up, okay, And that's what we had and one black
dudes for the side of Chicago. So at times no
one really said anything crazy to us. But our home
boat house did feel like an away game in times,
and so we had to deal with the school, the
boat house and teachers and parents saying what the heck
are y'all doing here?
Speaker 1 (45:15):
That was the dynamic, right, did you feel it? We
felt it the stairs the stairs. Were you more of
a humorous curiosity or were you a threat? I think
we were both are equally disturbed.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I think we were a threat. I felt it. I
think we were more of a threat to the kids,
but more like the humor part was some of the
coaches and.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
A threat to steal their stuff and kill them, or
you were a threat to take over their rowing world.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I think maybe a little bit of takeover the wrong world.
But also like their stuff in their locker.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Right, I knew that was that was never read any
of it, but I knew that wasna answer. So how'd
that feel?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
It didn't feel welcoming. It felt like, to be honest,
it felt like, man like what you guys talking about,
how tough we have to be to mentally prepare for race,
the race, and then now prepare for like also some
race issues. It just felt like we had a lot
(46:27):
to deal with. It felt like another weight added to
our show. So now we've got to navigate through the
West side of Chicago, and now we're going to navigate
through this new space, this white space of rowing. So
two worlds to navigate through safely.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Right, But you keep going back?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Yes? Why because we need We needed a break from
the gunshots, the fire trucks, the police sirens.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
My rules, Anastas were you can only wear blue and gold.
That's only colors you're allowed, all right, And the reason
is same thing. You know, the crips are this color,
the bloods of this color, the gds are this color.
Everybody's got their colors, right, Well, how do you have
a football team where people have to have teamwork and
fight for each other on a football field, and then
(47:14):
on Saturday night, everybody's wearing different colors banging in the
neighborhood against your teammate. That's stupid. It doesn't work. So
I made a quick rule. The only colors you ribbed
to wear if you play football from here boo and gold.
You also have to do your homework. You also have
to be respectful teachers. You also have to hold the
door open for a young lady if she's in front
or behind you. You also have to say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am.
(47:37):
All kinds of real basic fundamental tenants. One very small
freshman came to practice one day with knuckle bumps all
over his forehead. I'm talking about he had been beat on,
and I'm like, Bro, you know, I'm not going to
use his name. I'm say, bro, what you know, what's up?
He's like, it's all good, coach, let's roll. We got practice.
(47:59):
I found out later that year that his game was
particularly violent, and their world was if you wanted to
not wear our colors in order to play on that team,
you got to take a one minute, three man beat down.
So he had to stand there for a minute and
take an app open from three grown out men for
them to give him permission to cross over and wear
(48:22):
blue and gold, meaning be part of the football team.
Yet he did it. I had, as you can imagine,
and I'm wondering if you heard this too. I had
some of my kids get called sellouts Uncle Tom's and
that white man ain't got nothing for you, white coach
and all black plays, and so many of my players peers,
(48:46):
they had to break relationships to some of them because
they weren't down with a white coach and all that,
and then you know he's going to sell you out,
you know how it is. I mean, they had to
put up with all that, not just from their many
of them, not from the gangs, but their own friends,
from family members. Yet they showed up every day, and
(49:06):
I finally understood why it wasn't me. It wasn't me
being inspirational. That two hours on that football field with
those rules was the one positive thing those kids got
to look forward to, and they did it because all
of the rest of it was worth it to them
(49:29):
for that two hour of serenity in their life. Did
you get called names by your peers because the coaches
were white and it was a quote white sport. And
did you sense that it was all worth it just
for the headspace?
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Oh? Yeah, absolutely. We will call the same thing sell out.
Oh you guys talking like you're white now, Oh you
think you're better than us or you know again, you're
off with a white man, the slave ship, sell out.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Slave ship. Yeah, they called you the kids in school? Yeah,
how did that make you feel?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
It was damaging?
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Man?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It was rough.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
It's because they supporting every single sport in the school
except ours. Everyone was getting rooted for except us, you know.
And but at the same time, you talk about eliminating
the small dream because there was room for more dreams eventually,
(50:31):
you know, you read that we went to Philly, we
raced in Iowa, we raced in d C. You know,
all these different places in high school.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
In high school from west from someone who couldn't go
downtown to shoot the serious towers finding himself in Philly
and d C in a boat on the water racing.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
No one was doing what we was doing, and that
kept us going, Like I don't care if he was
the star basketball player who was traveling like that, who
were passing the swim tests, who were eating at nice restaurants,
who were finally interacting with different people. No one was
doing that, so that kept us going. But also at
(51:09):
the same time, the fact that we didn't have anyone
else helped us to connect as a brotherhood cause we
were like, listen, we had to pull for each other.
We don't have anyone else.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Ual fact did become a crew.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
It became a crew. It was like you know soldierspect
you know many years ago when they fought in war,
when the times a black and whites wasn't connecting, and
all of a sudden you put them together to fight
in the war, and they built. They become a brotherhood.
Like you know, it was like they were isolated from
(51:41):
everything else and it was like, listen, we have to
fight for each other. And that's kind of how it
was for us. These guys are from different gangs and
different neighborhoods, and they were sons of drug addists, sons
of drug dealers, sons of prostitutes. And the fact that
no one else rooted for us we started, and Malcolm said,
a beaut and film, we just rooted for each other
(52:02):
and that's when the brotherhood started.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
And hopefully our army of normal folks can become a
brotherhood and a sisterhood too, just like our Sae Cooper's did. Guys,
that concludes Part two of our conversation with Archie Cooper,
and I hope you'll join us for Part three that
is now available
Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks.
And we continue now with part two of our conversation
with Rha Cooper right after these brief messages from our
generals sponsors. I remember the first time I heard the
(00:30):
term white privilege, and it pissed me off because I
didn't feel real privilege. And I'm white as hell. I mean,
I'm redheaded, light skin, I'm white. They ain't no mistaken
this whiteness. And I grew up in apartments. I did
describe to you a little bit about how I grew up.
(00:54):
You know, I went to school with the uncool clothes
on because those were the cheapest things that my mom
could afford. You know, back in the day in the
South Baswegians, penny loafers were the thing, and they were
like fifty dollars, and back then fifty dollars a lot
of money for shoes. Well, we went to the knockoff
place and bought the twelve dollars shoes because that's all
(01:16):
we could afford. And you know, I remember feeling even
more in security from everything my life was, but also
a lot of the times how I had to dress
and the things that available and you know, people having
friends over. And I was very careful about which friends
I had over because I lived in an apartment or
condominium and everybody else had these school houses with two parents,
(01:39):
and you know, so I didn't feel like I was privileged.
And so when I heard white privilege, I'm like, who
the hell are you talking about. You don't know nothing
about me, and it insulted me. And I'm going to
tell you, on the face of it, there's a lot
of white folks who hear the term white privilege and
(02:00):
they think about the struggles they've gone into their lives
to get where they are that initially are insulted by it,
and as a result, dismissed that term as woke bs
because they take it personally. It was. It took me
(02:20):
a long time, but it was. It was. It took
me a while to understand that white privilege was not
a term used to personally attack or diminish the things
I've had to go through from my life to find success. Rather,
it was a term that was used more to try
(02:44):
to explain the plight of a lot of inner city
black and brown people, not again to compare or diminish
what some white person did that came up but to say,
there is a difference oftentimes in that plight. So I'll
get to my question minute. But I got to put
(03:06):
one more layer on this. My pastor Tim Russell, who
passed during COVID, one of the greatest mentors I've ever had,
one of the smartest men I've one of the most
well rassd I helped him move his house one time,
and he had two bedrooms full of books. I'm talking
(03:27):
about room's dog full of books and he had read
them all. And his dad was a police officer up
in Pennsylvania, and he was a theologically trained that seminary
pastor in the Presterian Church. And all I can tell
you is think James Earl Jones, booming voice, balled, black, proud, brilliant,
(03:56):
wonderful man. And I would tell you he is the
closest relationship I've ever had with the pastor, and we
had lots of real talk. He moved to Memphis from
up there to start a school called the Memphis Center
for Urban Theological Seminary, trying to help pastors from the
inner city who are certainly on fire for God and
(04:16):
church but didn't really have the full theological seminary background,
especially with regard to the New Testament, to teach that,
to equip them to go back to their churches and
teach that. So he was the president of that and
we became very very good friends. The whole reason I'm
telling you all of this is this, when he and
(04:38):
I were deep in conversation one time, the white privileged
thing came up and I told him how bad it
bothered me, and it angered me and I took it
personally and it discounted all I'd done in my life
to overcome obstacles, and that I wasn't down with it.
He looked at me and he said, you've been to
(04:59):
a black dentist And I said no. And he said
you have been to a black doctor and I said no.
I did go to mergency room one time and the
doctor was from India. And he said, so you can
think of one time you've been to a non white
doctor and I said, yeah, I guess. So he said
you have been to a black attorney and I said no,
(05:22):
and he said why not? And I said, I don't
know that I ever cared if anybody was black or white,
but I went to who I know or who my
family knew or what was available to me. He said,
there's not a black person in the world that hasn't
at one time in their life had to depend on
a white dentist, a white doctor, a white attorney or
(05:43):
something like that, or some professional that they had to
go to a white person for those things. And he said,
that's white privilege. He said that that doesn't mean anything
to you, or about you or anything thing you've done.
And he said, but you have a privilege as a
(06:04):
white person that you can that things and people and
services are available to you in the way that you
want them by people that you are comfortable with that
simply aren't available to black people in our country. That
doesn't diminish you. It's just trying to explain where a
black person might be coming from. And it rocked me
(06:28):
when he said that. Talk to me about your perspective
of the term white privilege from a man who grew
up in the West Side Chicago.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, you know, I didn't, and I don't want to
skip anything. I didn't even think about it until I
started rowing, and I didn't really think about it because
it was so much navigating through the West Side of
Chicago that I can even imagine not getting through anything
(06:57):
else or what other people was going through. But it
didn't mean when it you know, it wasn't people wasn't
using nowhere white privilege back when I was young. But
you know the first time I noticed it, and it
had nothing to do with money or you know, work
ethic or anything like that. I we were sharing a
(07:18):
boat house with a private school and there was a
gas station on Clark Street by the Lincoln Park two
by the Lincoln Park Lagoon where we rowed. And for
me and my team, the group of black guys, we
will always ask that you guys have to come in
one at a time because we can't watch you and
(07:42):
we don't know if anyone will take something or still.
I was like, oh man, okay, okay, but we wanted
we need a sack. So we were just always going
one at a time. And we were talking about this later,
but as we got friendly with the private school kids
and it didn't start off that way at first. These
kids were from Senegnatius and were walking and we saw
(08:03):
them all go in as a group, and I was like, hey,
we have to go in one at a time. You
guys can go in as a group. He's like yeah, yeah,
He's like, you guys have to come in one at
a time. And I, one of the kids was like,
and this comes in with like being an ally. He
was like, no, that's not cool. Come in with us,
and let's see if they say something, you know. And
we went in with them and they didn't say anything.
(08:23):
No one said anything. But that was the rule for us.
The same cashire what year? This was nineteen ninety nine, and.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
We ain't talking sixty four. No, no, no, no, I
know that, but I just want to make the point. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
And that's when I felt like there's a different kind
of privilege here. And then that's when we began to
have more conversations when I said, hey, I've never been
suspended from school. I never broke a plate in my life.
I have never got in trouble, and I even talked
back to my mom. I have pleasure to lead just
to the flag every morning. I have recited the preamble,
(09:01):
I said the Declaration of Independence, passed that task with
goosebumps in my spine, and I have my face pressed
down the police card numerous of times, and ask the
guys that we roll with from saying nations. Have this
ever happened to them? And they said no, And I
was like, I volunteer more than you guys. I feel
more American than you guys. I do all kind of
I go to church. But it never happened to them.
(09:24):
And I felt like.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Let me ask something. Where you dressed like a thug?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I not mean, but I guess we had dressed like
a thug.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I asked that question on purpose that way, Yeah, speak
to it. What does that feel like when a white
dude says, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Dress like a thug? I'm like, what does that even mean?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
There you go?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's like
who decides who dressed like a thug? Right?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
You know why I said that? You said because that's
what people thinking.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
That's what people are thinking.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Here's the thing. Hold hold it? Do you have a
hood on? Jeb Dreads dressed like a thought? No one
was hold it, corn Roach dressed like a thought. I'm
just I'm just equating. I know, Yeah, we'll talk about it,
talk about it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
You know we had big jeans, right.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, thugs wear big chains. I see it on wrap stuff.
I can't listen to music or even understand the words
but I know those thugs were big, big old chains.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, we couldn't afford the chains. But here's the thing.
We left practice. We had basketball shorts and jerseys on.
At some point we still had rowing clothes on, and
we had our head bands.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Right, well, that's gangster. Just spell what I'm saying. Doing
all of this, Yes, you understand.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
I understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, all the things
that Nike sells all athletes wear in America. In America, yeah,
we were wearing and damn thugs. We were considered thugs.
And the same guys who showed up into this foreign sport,
(11:05):
who trained six days a week and took entrepreneurship classes,
we couldn't walk into the same grocery store as others.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
That's white privilege. Now does that speak bad about a
white person or not at all? Try to explain your reality,
that's all it is.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Because the guys who went to the grocery store done
nothing wrong. They just walked into the grocery store.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
The white kids, they didn't do anything wrong. It doesn't
mean anything against them. Is just trying to explain your reality.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
And we didn't even get mad at them. The fact
that they can go in. Now, he's not their fault.
It's not their fault, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So you're saying them being white is not their fault,
no more.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Than being black.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But one group is looked at penalized differently than the other.
Both engaged in the same sport, at the same place,
in the same city, the same store.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
And I know people think it's, you know, shaky conversation,
but that's why people say, I feel like I'm living
in a different America.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Bro, It's time we start having shaky conversations in this
country that are real, that are civil, non threatening and respectful,
but real.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And that's what I learned through sports, and you know,
in football, basketball, that to accomplish anything, you are uncomfortable
the whole time. You're courageous. But these conversations are uncomfortable,
but it give us the results that.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So our listeners heard this Row stuff and they got
to be thinking row. Black folks don't row.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I said that, I know.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So I guess it's time that we advance from eleven
years old and get to the rowing. So people even
understand why you're at the store and why you're wearing
Row clothes. And man, there's some of the stuff I've
read that I cannot help, and I don't even know
if I'm supposed to laugh, but Lord have mercy. Some
(13:04):
of your partners said some funny stuff, so we're going
to share that too. But first a few messages from
our sponsors. At around eleven twelve, you noticed this family
(13:39):
dynamic change, and your stepdad is gone and your mom
is an addict in the street and you're living with grandparents. Right,
So I remember reading that you pretty much felt like
your mom was going to die, so you disassociated yourself
from her and just kind of let her die in
(14:01):
your mind, preparing yourself for her to be going and
dealing with that trauma as well, going to school, your
grandmother kind of I guess, stepping in and trying to
keep you right, and then showing up at school one
day and there's a boat. So I'm gonna shut up
(14:23):
and let you take us from about eleven to the
first boat day.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, so you know, my you know, my mom eventually
went into recovery, and that in itself was like, Wow,
if God can change that one, he can change anything,
you know, That was my first thought. But you know,
she was, you know, amazing when she went to a
(14:48):
Christian recovery home, and God changed her life and we
had devotion every morning. But I think Rowan came to
me because of her, because when she left her recovery,
she said that I think it's scripture. She said to me,
she said, your gift will making room for you and
put you in the presence of great men. I never
(15:10):
forgot that. I didn't know what that meant unless she's crazy,
But always thought about that. My high school graduate, less
than fifty percent of his senior class every year sent
ten percent to college, the second most file in the
high school in Westie, Chicago at that time. In the
school mainly high school right and to get to school
(15:33):
was rough. It was. It was hard. You had to
go through so many different gangs to even get to
the school, walking walking, and fights every day all the
time in the school, outside and in the school. Go
through the metal detectives, you see nice and screws drivers
on the table.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
A Memphis bus driver will tell you he has not
paid well enough to break up fights on the bus.
So oftentimes school buses riding down the road with people
fight in the back of it. It just happens. It
just happens, and it's the same way, there, the.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Same way, and thinking of all this craziness happening. I
walk in the lunch room one day and I see
a white boat. I was like, what the heck is
this like? And I'll stopped and looked at it. I've
never seen a boat before.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And you've seen pictures of ive seen pictures.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
But never like, yeah, like live, I've never seen a boat.
And I stopped and I stared and it's and and
uh And I stopped staring, and this white lady hit
my shoulders.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
She's like, hey, how many white people? A lot of
white people put it, teachers, administrators, students.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
At my school. Maybe you saw two white teachers. Not
a lot of white teachers there.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And how many students in the whole school? Nine hundred maybe,
so we're talking a quarter of one white people. Yeah,
and there's a white chick in the hallway with a
boat in a lunch room. Might as well have been
a marsh Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
You know, my mind is tripping because she said, hey,
was you want to be a part of the crew team.
I was like, my crew, like you're taught, someone asked
you to join the crew running the other way as
fast as you can. What you know, like, what is this?
There's so many different crews. That's the white lady started
a crew like, I'm like, what is crew broke?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
You know?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And she said, let me show you and I have
to say this bill. She walked me up to the
boat and behind the boat was a TV monitor and
they was showing the Olympic Games. And it looked so beautiful,
people growing, and it looks so meditative, and it looked
(17:42):
like an opportunity. But because no one on the screen
looked like me or the world I was used to,
I said no to the opportunity and walked away and
I sat next to my friend. I can you believe
like they're trying to get us on Lake Michigan. We
don't even swim?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yea that there's okay? First one that you know, I mean,
I guess off we should probably share our favorite white
people joke black people. But I mean one of the
one of the things is black folks don't swim, right.
Well that's crazy, of course, yes, But the point is
(18:20):
when you grow up in West Side Chicago trying to
come up with your next meal, you ain't taking swimming
lessons with the YMCA. No. No, Now, the other thing
that's interesting is you say you've never seen a boat,
and you're in Chicago, which happens to beyond like one
of the biggest lakes in the world full of boats.
How far is West Side from that lake?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Five miles? Four miles, five miles?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
But you never went over there, never been Why didn't
you go over there?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Just well, first of all, thinking about going across the neighborhoods,
nobody to get on the train to see it, you know,
just never even thought of it. I couldn't even see
past what my circumstances.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So my first year NASES, I loaded up a busload
of kids at Nassas, which is much like your high school,
and I took them out to the county to play
in a football game. And it was the first time
most of my team had been out of Shoby County.
We got off, started warming up and the football field
(19:19):
was out in the middle of a field and back
behind the bleachers kind of in the end zone. After
warm ups, where we went and sat for fifteen minutes
to get ready to play the game, and was up
against cotton Field and two of my players looked over
and said Coach Bill Man that they got that cotton,
(19:39):
and I said, yeah, and it dawned on me. They'd
never seen a plant outside of just the bushes. And
I mean, they'd never seen a farm, they'd never seen
a field, they never seen cotton. So much of what
anybody would just normally just take for absolutely granted, they'd
(20:01):
never seen. And this is We're in Memphis, this is
where I mean, this is the largest concentrating hub in
the world here in Memphis, and these guys had never
seen it because they'd never been more than three miles
away from the house, which I didn't understand until they
explained to me it's dangerous to walk out their house.
So talk about that. The point is, you had never
(20:23):
seen a boat. You were five miles from a mecca
of boats in your own city, and you wouldn't even
dare go to that nice part of the city because
you couldn't even get there safely.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
You couldn't even get to the next neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
How we're talking blocks.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I mean, yeah, three blocks, four blocks.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
You would not go through.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You can't go past five blocks. Ganges wasn't It wasn't
different communities, it wasn't different neighborhoods. It was blocks, five blocks,
is the vice lord. The next block is conservative vice board,
next five blocks is the renegade vice lords. Then it's
the gangs's disciples. And so if you're in a car
or if you're a US with your friends while collective
of gangs are getting on every four stops, that's why
(21:05):
gangs happen, because I mean gang fights happened because there's
four different gangs on one bus heading to the same school,
you know what I mean, And you can't get caught.
You can't be caught over there. And then if you're
on the train, if you say I want to take Ano,
you know, I'm just gonna hop on a train and
do this amazing adventure and go see the serious towers. No,
it's not happening because on that bus the zoo, because
(21:27):
on that bus may be a different gang.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And that's the museum.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes, And you hear so many stories growing up. It's like,
don't everything is don't go over there, don't go over there,
don't go over there, don't go over there. So you're
not gonna go over there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And if you have to go through quote there to
go to the seious Tower, to go to Lake Michigan
to go to a museum, the zoo and all of
these learning opportunities. You and West Side ain't going Yeah, yep, yep,
(22:00):
you roll up on a white woman with a boat
in the cafeteria. Yep.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
And I said, Preston, we ain't doing this at the
at the Love for the Table and he was. He
was a bit of conspiracy theorist too, he was. He
was like, yeah, you know, I remember him saying this.
I wrote about this. He's like, yeah, this is you know,
this is how the white people kill us. Like why
would they want us to do this? And I was like,
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying I don't think
we should be on the boat. And uh, you know
(22:26):
he was. He said something funny. He's like, think about it,
think about it. I'm thinking he's about to say something.
And he's like, even the boats are white, bro. And
I was like, come on.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Man, oh didn't he say something one of you. Somebody
said a funny line about a slave ship.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Oh yeah, that was Malcolm. They said they're gonna have
you guys out there on slave ships, these white people.
You're like, oh, yeah, that's true. And uh but I
tell you on that day you've seen no. They had
a sheet of paper that says sign up. No one
signed up. And then then day the boat's still there
walking a launch room and I see a lot of
(23:04):
people signing up and I'm like, what the heck is
going on? Sign up? You get free Chicago pizza. And
I was like, oh, man, you know, like anything about
this lunchroom food, you know, And people are signing up
and I sit next to Press and Press like I
think we sign up, you know what I mean? And
it was because of the pizza and this girl. I
(23:26):
was like, I'll go girl. Yeah, it's this girl named Grace. Man,
Like I had a crush on her. I was like, pressing,
I'll go if you can hook me up with this
girl Grace. And he was like you have no shot,
Like she's cheerleader, a student, Like you have no shot,
you know what I mean. I was like, well, I'll go, man,
Because he really wanted to go for the pizza. So
(23:46):
you know, he made that happen.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
But we still ain't talking about Rowan. We're talking about
pizza and girls, yeah, and anything else. A normal fifteen,
sixteen year old kid was thinking about.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking about.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
But it's funny to me. I mean, you could see
a scene in the movie with you and a couple
of buddies sitting around the lunchroop table talk about the
boat's white, they gotta they go to like a slave
ship row and we don't swim and all of that,
And it's hilarious that there's about twelve different stereotypes rolled
(24:21):
up all into that one conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, all stereotypes, I mean, and that was Yeah, that
was the first thing that popped up, popped up in
our minds, you know, and it was all of us,
and that's the reason, and it was different for everyone.
That's why everyone said, Noah didn't sign up.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Do you know how uncomfortable white people are talking to
black people about those stereotypes? Yeah, you know why they're
afraid they're gonna of ffind you. And so because I'm
afraid of political correctness, wokeness, cancel culture and that I'm
gonna offend you. Now, I can't talk to you about that.
So how are you and I ever gonna get to
(24:58):
understand each other and grow together if we cannot have
those conversations.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
No, that's it's correct, And I think and that's what
I love, you know. I know we get into this
about our coach, Jewish guy, he's the rowing coach. It
was all about like the human connection right away, like
questions like what kind of piece do you love? Have
(25:24):
you ever traveled? He came by our home the first
time before we even joined the team.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
White dude, that's first white guy I ever went in
your house? I bet yeah. Anybody, Well, he didn't get
in most of the houses. It is like he ain't
coming to here, you know what I mean, that's the truth.
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
He's like front door, door cracked open, the chains still
on the lock.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
How can I help you? You know?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
And I think for remember some of our families from
the South, and they had their experience, but something that
was like I'm not delivering my kid into this space.
You know how I grew up, you know, and it
came from a place of safety, you know, and for
some and fear and fear.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
And this is I'm using this word specifically. Also ignorance,
not stupidity, just being ignorant of any of that world.
Because if you can't get exposed to it, how do
you understand it?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
How do you understand it?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, it's yeah. And remember because I never seen a
boat up close, and uh, and now you want to
put my kids on it, you know. And it was
the same for them. And back to your what you
were saying, the human connection, the questions even you know,
it wasn't just that it was a boat or I
(26:39):
wanted to be in the water. It was his spirit.
When I went up to that info session after the school,
the first to get that pizza, and having a woman coach.
There was a lot of women I saw coaching boys,
and most of us was raised by women. We felt
comfortable with women.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Now that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And I was a sensitive kid and I felt like
women got me in a way that some men didn't.
And then he had a black man who didn't know
nothing about rowing, but he knew the community. But he
was still a coach, and the leadership kind of reflected
the diversity.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
We'll be right back. Talk briefly about this guy, this
(27:38):
crazy white dude. The idea was to go in the
inner city. It's one thing for white dude to go
on in the inner city and coach football or basketball or
whatever what we're talking about rowing.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
And a bunch of schools said no. He tried, he
went to different school that we wasn't a first place. No,
we was in the first place. And you know, he
came and I think he had a conversation with someone
he was trying to get to volunteer, Michael Gorman, and
Michael saying no, I'm not volunteering Mike. I think Mike
was kind of like making a joke, Hey, if you
start a rowing team on the West Side Chicago, maybe
(28:12):
I volunteer, you know, and uh, crazy can did it.
And I think what was special about him, Coach Bill,
was that it wasn't about him he made He took
the time to hire a diverse staff with women and
people of color, to also learn from them, right and
(28:37):
understand that, you know, we came from different situations and
he won't be maybe the only person that we will
respond to that maybe the parents will respond to Coach Victor,
or maybe some of the moms will respond to Jessica differently,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
But this is an average dude. I mean, he went
to the University of Pennsylvania and was on the crew team.
But you know, this is just not a guy who
was anointed to go out and start road to the
city he found it in his heart and said, you know,
the commitment that disciplined, the hard work, the teamwork, the
effort that comprises a good row team are all tenants
(29:12):
and fundamentals that would be great for these kids in
westside Chicago to learn. So I want to teach them rowing,
but I want them to grow through learning how to row.
And he included a one day a week entrepreneurship thing. Right, So,
I mean you talk about an army and normal folks.
He's won.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah. Yeah, he's a trader, has a kid, newly married.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And finds himself in the West side of Chicago trying
to teach a bunch of inner city kids.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah yep. And and I gave it a shot. And
I tell you Bill, the the first time he went
out there was rough.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
The first time he went out where on the water
we went out there? So okay, So so hang on,
you sign up for the team because you got the pizza,
and because Grace is you like.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
What it looks like and so all that, and they
have machines.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I want to make sure you get married, Grace good.
I just I don't want to be talking about no
like all that. Watch my business. So how many of you.
I didn't ever understand how many of you have now
actually signed up to be on the road team.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Was about twenty one. Sorry.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
How many people fit in a boat?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Eight or four?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Eight or four? So there's four man boats, eight man boats.
So there's twenty one kids from the West side Chicago.
How many of those twenty one kids literally could swim?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I think it was like two.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah, and you're gonna stick them on the in some water.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
None of them ain't ever even seen a boat, yep.
And so you'd say, well, that first day was rough, Well,
I guess so, bro it was a damn mess. I
bet it was as bad as a super saying. So
tell me about that day. Ill you about how you're
fifteen fifteen all right, so you're fifteen, can't swim? Twenty
(31:11):
one of you and they put your out in a boat. Yes,
and these boats, y'all are not don't think of speed
butter are they like eighteen inches?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So eighteen inches like a canoe, a big long, pointy
canoe that can that can turn over, it can flip,
you know what I mean? They put you in it.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, I mean we had life jackets, but that still
doesn't mean anything, you know, And we had some rth.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Where was it? Where's the water?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
It was the Lincoln Park Lagoon. It's it's which is
a place that you never went to right downtown.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
You never even saw it before, saw it before. So
you ain't never been a boat. You can't swim. You
really don't know these folks. And they put you in
a boat you've never been in, and a life jacket
that you really don't know how to use, and water
you can't swim in, and a place that you can't
get to from your neighbor hood and say, ro ro,
I bet it, I bet it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
They pushed us out.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
We didn't move.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
That's what I said. The line in the book. One
of the kids outside, I gotta call him out, but
he's my boy, Deshaun Benson. He starts crying, and I
was like, man, I know you don't have the gang
shootouts you saw and you like you go outside the
next day the next moment, you know, and you cried
(32:31):
in a boat that's so different, you know. And I remember,
we wouldn't move. They said, hey, let's go. We wouldn't move,
and they had to pull us back in. What do
you mean we sat there we was like, well no,
and they pulled us back in and I felt, gosh,
the leader in me was like man like they I
(32:54):
felt like these culches. They wasn't disappointed, but they just
they were looking at me. They were looking at each
other like did we get ourselves into you know? I
saw it in their face and I felt bad. And
there was a little time between. Grace is not there, thank.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
You, because she would have never made no time with
you watching in the boat.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And that was a little bit of time between where
we started taking swim lessons, where we got on the
row machine, and we went to the University of Wisconsin
to sit on a tank. A tank is like a
pool where you have a fake boat in and you
learn how to move together.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Okay, so how long from that first we ain't moving
day too when you could actually row a boat together?
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Like a month. Maybe it was the time they said
we gotta, we gotta, we got to back up here,
we got to back up here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.
It was rowing machines, rowing machines and got it, having conversations.
We felt like a part of the team, and it
was like guys who didn't make who were athletic, but
didn't make the football team, basketball team, baseball team. Those
(33:57):
were the guys that were there and and I remember
it was we felt so connected. We started to learn
more about each other. And we went out there the
next time and they pushed us out first. The first
thing I thought about was like, wow, just go to
go from seeing dirt and concrete every day to water
(34:21):
and grass changed everything for me. When it was like
the same survival mode. When we pushed out and started
rowing in pairs, it was like the same survival mode
that told us that if you hear a gunshot, run
told us in order to get back to the docks safely,
you have to pull for each other. And in order
(34:43):
to pull for each other, you have to shut up
and listen. And the culture saying, sit tall, breathe, you
belong here. With every stroke, you started to develop this
magical rhythm. And that's when you start to feel the
magic in the boat. You began to really download that
serenity and you see the downtown view and before it
(35:05):
becomes a sportive competitiveness, it becomes a sportive meditation. And
I felt like wow, like this is the first sport
that kind of like calm that's calming the storm in
me because I tried other sports and I was rowed up. Well,
I was angry because I wasn't that good, but it
was non combative and like non conflict and for me personally,
(35:27):
because impact scared me, gunshots, being chased or being punched.
Like I felt like like this may be something that's
that that is great for me. But it wasn't like
an introduction to sports. It was like an introduction to wellness.
And that's when I fell in love with it.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I remember reading that you said looking at the Sears
Tower from the water, sitting in that boat, which maybe
the first time you ever truly felt serenity. I'm using
I don't think you use the words serenity, but tell
me about that.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, you know, I think I only saw the top
of the City's tower from the west side of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
That was my only view, and it must have been
no different than as you've explained. You can see the
top of it, but it wasn't any different looking at
the moon. You were never getting that.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
You would never get here exactly, yep. And I felt
I never felt so close to you because my dream
was to see downtown, but I never felt so close
to my dream than that day.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
How ridiculous is it that a kid growing up in
West Side Chicago, five miles from downtown has a dream
to be able to go across five miles just to
see downtown. That is not a That should not be
a dream. That should be just an assumption.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I have to tell you this Bill. I went to
a school and I'm skipping a little bit, but I
spoke at a school in Harlem and I asked all
these young black men what was their dream? And everyone
was saying in like NFL player, basketball player. But I
went to one kid and he said, to eat at Chipotle,
and people started laughing. Chipotle, that's it. That was his dream,
(37:17):
that was his dream. And the way he looked at
me with his eyes like water in his eyes, I
was like, this kid is serious. And after that I
went up to the school council. I said, here's twenty dollars.
You have to make sure he eats at Chippole. Yeah,
And he was like, you don't have to do it.
I said, no, you don't understand. If you can eliminate
the small dream, there's room for bigger dreams, there's room
(37:39):
for more dreams. I couldn't see past going down to Chicago,
going like like I couldn't see passed the dream of
downtown Chicago. That's that was the only one I had
because it seems so out of reach. And the moment
Coach took me down there, I was like, dude, we
gotta go out of town. And so Coach was eliminating
the small dreams and then that was room for more
(38:02):
and that was just a powerful and it took me
back to that moment when I saw this kid who
dream was only to eat at Chipotle because everyone talked
about it and said, I'll be going to Chippole, but
he just couldn't. And these kids are limited it to
their dreams and they can't see past that.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
And if your dream is to simply go see the
Seerus Tower, that's a different dream than a fourteen year
old in another part of the country that has a
dream to be a doctor. I dream to be an accountant,
a dream to go to college, a dream to get
married and have children in a house. That's the things
(38:40):
that thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year old could shud
be dreaming out, not to go five miles away from
their house, just to see the seious tower. And when
the dreams are so small and should be so and
are so assumptive, how do we ever expect people from Weside,
(39:00):
Chicago to do anything, or Harlem or wherever. Pick a
neighborhood in your city, Baltimore, you know what I'm talking about.
I mean, the point is, if you can't dream beyond
five miles from your house because you're afraid to walk
the ten blocks to get to get there, how in
(39:25):
the world can you ever dream about being anything other
than what you are and what you see every day?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
And that's why I appreciate people like Can yourself and
many others, because people will say, how come there's not
more black people are fencing, or black people are growing,
or because it's hard to dream about something you know
nothing about, you know, And that's funny.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think Chris Rock talks about his daughter fencing, which
is which is funny because one of the things he
was talking about is you know, yeah, I got black
girls that fence, and he's like unicorn, you know. But
the thing is, it is funny. It does speak to
(40:08):
about a thousand stereotypes, but it's also desperately sad that
a black kid fencing is such or a black kid
growing is such a odd thought that it's laughable. That
that speaks to why we have continued generational problems in
(40:32):
places like by such cargo, And it also speaks to
why your story is so freaking amazing because you broke
that cycle from the seat in a little skinny white boat.
We'll be right back. You started figuring out what you
(41:08):
were doing, and you're practicing every day.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yep, we're practicing every day.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Now. I don't know this. I get your practicing Like
when we practice summer in spring football, we're practicing for
the season, and you practice a week between games. I
don't know what a is it a meat? What's a
row competition called?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
It's called retta?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Okay, So so you regatta. So you got these kids
from west Side that are practicing for their first regatta. Now,
from that first practice to the first regatta, how much time.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Do you have, oh man? For some I mean you
have a few months, for some people some months. It
really depends on it.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
So it's are we talking about we got to get
ready for our first red?
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Now when people in your high school see you talking
about rowing and talking about going to regatta. They have
got to be folks looking at you crossover.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, wait a minute, isn't that a cheese? But I
know that's rita, that's ricata.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah yeah, no, man, that ain't nothing. My mama got
a buick for gotta right. But for real, people had
in school had to be kind of looking at your gracey. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
They were like, man, we were walking and you would
see the guys making a beat on the locker and
they were saying, roll roll, roll your books. It was
like they gave us a hard time. Yeah, that's not
a real sport. What are you guys doing down there?
You know what I mean? And no one took it serious.
And when I say it was like there was three
(42:58):
things that was tough. It was not one the school
laughing at us, didn't take it serious. The school, the kids,
school kids, and then a mixture of parents and some
of the coaches like this is a million dollar contracts.
After this, it's like, what are you doing. It's not
a real sport. If you want to make some money
for your family, do a ball sport.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Yeah, I got I got it. I got news for you.
How many million dollar contracts came out of the high
school that you went to one out of period years
years one years, I mean.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Mainly been there. I don't know, maybe mainly been there
for sixty seven year. We had one NBA player.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Sixty years yep, right times nine hundred kids. Wow, okay,
that's fifty four thousand. That's one wow in fifty four
thousand odds. Wow, you're gonna get a million dollar contract
one kids. My guess is you have a better chance actually.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Going to go. You just gave me some new material built.
They will just you know a mill there.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Marked train said, there's truth, there's damn truth, and then
there's stats. Well, there's your status there you go.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Right and uh and so so yeah, it was that
and then a mixture of it, like I told your
parents teaching, and then it was like the boat house.
No one told these twenty one black boys from the
West side of Chicago that you're going to be sharing
a boat house with a couple, like a couple of
private schools.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
What's a boat house, I don't know what that is.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
A boat house is where I don't know nothing about
from boat houses where you house the boats. You go
in there and it's like forty boats are they your
boats or no, the boats belong to the private schools
know about. We don't own a boat. Were borrowing boats
from some of the proms, from some of the private schools.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
And then they're giving you their ragged as practice, the
oldest boat that you can find, and some are they
called oars or whatever oars? They probably some broke.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Up, okay, And that's what we had and one black
dudes for the side of Chicago. So at times no
one really said anything crazy to us. But our home
boat house did feel like an away game in times,
and so we had to deal with the school, the
boat house and teachers and parents saying what the heck
are y'all doing here?
Speaker 1 (45:15):
That was the dynamic, right, did you feel it? We
felt it the stairs the stairs. Were you more of
a humorous curiosity or were you a threat? I think
we were both are equally disturbed.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I think we were a threat. I felt it. I
think we were more of a threat to the kids,
but more like the humor part was some of the
coaches and.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
A threat to steal their stuff and kill them, or
you were a threat to take over their rowing world.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I think maybe a little bit of takeover the wrong world.
But also like their stuff in their locker.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Right, I knew that was that was never read any
of it, but I knew that wasna answer. So how'd
that feel?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
It didn't feel welcoming. It felt like, to be honest,
it felt like, man like what you guys talking about,
how tough we have to be to mentally prepare for race,
the race, and then now prepare for like also some
race issues. It just felt like we had a lot
(46:27):
to deal with. It felt like another weight added to
our show. So now we've got to navigate through the
West side of Chicago, and now we're going to navigate
through this new space, this white space of rowing. So
two worlds to navigate through safely.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Right, But you keep going back?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Yes? Why because we need We needed a break from
the gunshots, the fire trucks, the police sirens.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
My rules, Anastas were you can only wear blue and gold.
That's only colors you're allowed, all right, And the reason
is same thing. You know, the crips are this color,
the bloods of this color, the gds are this color.
Everybody's got their colors, right, Well, how do you have
a football team where people have to have teamwork and
fight for each other on a football field, and then
(47:14):
on Saturday night, everybody's wearing different colors banging in the
neighborhood against your teammate. That's stupid. It doesn't work. So
I made a quick rule. The only colors you ribbed
to wear if you play football from here boo and gold.
You also have to do your homework. You also have
to be respectful teachers. You also have to hold the
door open for a young lady if she's in front
or behind you. You also have to say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am.
(47:37):
All kinds of real basic fundamental tenants. One very small
freshman came to practice one day with knuckle bumps all
over his forehead. I'm talking about he had been beat on,
and I'm like, Bro, you know, I'm not going to
use his name. I'm say, bro, what you know, what's up?
He's like, it's all good, coach, let's roll. We got practice.
(47:59):
I found out later that year that his game was
particularly violent, and their world was if you wanted to
not wear our colors in order to play on that team,
you got to take a one minute, three man beat down.
So he had to stand there for a minute and
take an app open from three grown out men for
them to give him permission to cross over and wear
(48:22):
blue and gold, meaning be part of the football team.
Yet he did it. I had, as you can imagine,
and I'm wondering if you heard this too. I had
some of my kids get called sellouts Uncle Tom's and
that white man ain't got nothing for you, white coach
and all black plays, and so many of my players peers,
(48:46):
they had to break relationships to some of them because
they weren't down with a white coach and all that,
and then you know he's going to sell you out,
you know how it is. I mean, they had to
put up with all that, not just from their many
of them, not from the gangs, but their own friends,
from family members. Yet they showed up every day, and
(49:06):
I finally understood why it wasn't me. It wasn't me
being inspirational. That two hours on that football field with
those rules was the one positive thing those kids got
to look forward to, and they did it because all
of the rest of it was worth it to them
(49:29):
for that two hour of serenity in their life. Did
you get called names by your peers because the coaches
were white and it was a quote white sport. And
did you sense that it was all worth it just
for the headspace?
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Oh? Yeah, absolutely. We will call the same thing sell out.
Oh you guys talking like you're white now, Oh you
think you're better than us or you know again, you're
off with a white man, the slave ship, sell out.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Slave ship. Yeah, they called you the kids in school? Yeah,
how did that make you feel?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
It was damaging?
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Man?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It was rough.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
It's because they supporting every single sport in the school
except ours. Everyone was getting rooted for except us, you know.
And but at the same time, you talk about eliminating
the small dream because there was room for more dreams eventually,
(50:31):
you know, you read that we went to Philly, we
raced in Iowa, we raced in d C. You know,
all these different places in high school.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
In high school from west from someone who couldn't go
downtown to shoot the serious towers finding himself in Philly
and d C in a boat on the water racing.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
No one was doing what we was doing, and that
kept us going, Like I don't care if he was
the star basketball player who was traveling like that, who
were passing the swim tests, who were eating at nice restaurants,
who were finally interacting with different people. No one was
doing that, so that kept us going. But also at
(51:09):
the same time, the fact that we didn't have anyone
else helped us to connect as a brotherhood cause we
were like, listen, we had to pull for each other.
We don't have anyone else.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Ual fact did become a crew.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
It became a crew. It was like you know soldierspect
you know many years ago when they fought in war,
when the times a black and whites wasn't connecting, and
all of a sudden you put them together to fight
in the war, and they built. They become a brotherhood.
Like you know, it was like they were isolated from
(51:41):
everything else and it was like, listen, we have to
fight for each other. And that's kind of how it
was for us. These guys are from different gangs and
different neighborhoods, and they were sons of drug addists, sons
of drug dealers, sons of prostitutes. And the fact that
no one else rooted for us we started, and Malcolm said,
a beaut and film, we just rooted for each other
(52:02):
and that's when the brotherhood started.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
And hopefully our army of normal folks can become a
brotherhood and a sisterhood too, just like our Sae Cooper's did. Guys,
that concludes Part two of our conversation with Archie Cooper,
and I hope you'll join us for Part three that
is now available
Host
Bill Courtney
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