September 11, 2023 • 59 mins
When Gina’s son was stillborn, she asked Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep for one of their volunteer photographers to capture her only moments with David at the hospital and this remembrance photography is her most cherished possession. There’s 1,700 volunteer photographers around the world who’ve given free portrait sessions to 70,000 families like hers and Gina is now the CEO of this nonprofit that means so much to her. But there’s still many communities without volunteers and hopefully the Army can help.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Having those photographs doesn't document death, It captures love. It
documents David's existence, that he existed.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
He was stillborn. He never received a birth.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Certificate, but he existed, he lived, He lived inside of me.
And so for the parents who lose a baby, whether
they're stillborn or they die shortly after birth, a lot
of times people don't fully understand the magnitude. But these
photographs absolutely show like this baby was real.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
This baby was mine.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
He had dark, curly hair, chubby cheeks, and those photographs
will always be my most treasured possession.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur,
and I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis.
And the last part unintentionally led to an oscar for
the film about our team, it's called Undefeated. I believe
our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch
(01:12):
of fancy people and nice suits talking big words that
nobody understands on CNNM Fox, but rather an army of
normal folks, US just you and me deciding hey, I
can help. That's what Gina Harris, the voice. We just
heard is done incredibly. Gina was the beneficiary of the
nonprofit that she's now the CEO of Now I Lay
(01:36):
Me Down to sleeps. One thousand, seven hundred volunteer photographers
have given free portrait sessions to seventy thousand families who've
sadly lost their children to stillburse or soon after their
burse and they desire remembrance photography with their children that
they can cherish forever. While Gina has an extraordinary story
(02:00):
to hear, the real reason she wanted to come on
is to pay tribute to their own army of normal folks.
These seventeen hundred volunteer photographers their stories right after these
brief messages from our generous sponsors, Jita Harris, Hello, welcome
(02:36):
to Memphis.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So you're a six generation Colorado, Colorado, Coloradin.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Coloraden, Colorado. Yeah, from Colorado, ic Oh, Colorado.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Got it, six general, sixth generation. If you do the math,
that's like one hundred and thirty one hundred and forty years.
Your people want I there on wagons.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I think they did. My mom.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
It's my mom's dad's side of the family. They probably
went out there for gold, but I'm sure they came
up shorthanded because I didn't.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
It because nobody lived in a mansion anywhere. No, No, well,
how are you from Colorado in one hundred and forty
years and get law school on the airport?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I don't know why. Well, sometimes I go the toll road.
Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
But it was this morning during traffic, and I didn't
go the toll road, so I turned around and went
back on it.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I did get lost going to the airport.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Just kidding up. We were visiting before we got started,
and the trip here was tough. But Denver built that
airport like seventeen hundred miles away from city in Kansas. Yeah,
it's ridiculous. I mean it's way.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Out there, and it still is even though Denver's grown just.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, Denver's blown up, right, Yeah, but it's still hadn't go.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, it's a long drive, right.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So it's in Kansas. Still. Tell me about you. Where
did you grow up in Denver?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I grew up in Arvada. It's a suburb of Denver. Yeah,
and I grew up in Arvada. I live in Littleton now,
and I went to Colorado State University in Fort Collins.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Rams yes, that's right. They're at Green and White at
I think Green and Gold Green gold house. Close.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And siblings, Yes, I have two older sisters and a
younger sister, so four of you.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
What mom do? What dad do?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
My dad was a manager at Safeway. Yeah, yeah, grocery
store manager. My mom stayed at home. She cleaned houses too,
and did some odd jobs while we were growing up.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
And what was important to your parents growing up? What
was there at those what? What? What mattered to them?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Definitely? Faith? Faith, It was a very very strong part.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We went to church every week, and my dad was
a reader and an usher and very involved.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
He taught confirmation.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
And he taught confirmation class.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
He did he did cool.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Did he teach you in your confirmation class? No?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So that's the whole other story with my dad that
maybe you don't know. When I was thirteen years old,
he was only thirty nine and he died of a
brain anorism. She went to work and died of a
brain anorism.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
How, and you were thirteen I was thirteen and your
kids were I mean your siblings were.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
How My younger sister was just a year younger, and
then my two older sisters, they were already out of
the house. My mom was married prior to my dad,
and my dad adopted my two older sisters, so they
were already I think eighteen and probably twenty two.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
How did your mom handle that?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
That was extremely difficult and definitely changed our journey significantly.
My mom suddenly had to be mom and dad, and
it was my younger sister and I. We just very
felt very much on our own a lot of times.
(06:18):
So my mom did the very best she could, but
it did. It was very devastating. My dad was the
love of her life and still is, and their anniversary
would have been a few weeks ago actually, and she
posted on social media about him being the love of
her life, and so that very much impacted her and
(06:39):
my sisters and me for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
My dad was my hero.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
And still to this day the person I most look.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Up to as that is phenomenal. And that was so
many years ago and so sudden as we get into
your story deep for that revelation is actually maybe even
more impactful as I think about your story and your journey.
(07:11):
So that happened thirteen. You were eighth ninth grade. Then
you went on finished school and went to Colorado State.
I guess yes, And what'd you major in?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I have a broadcast journalism degree.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
A newswoman like a reporter. Yeah, yes, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Did you do that a little bit?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
But I just really felt the Lord calling me into
nonprofit work. And I also wanted to coach cheerleading.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
So did you cheer in high school and college?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I did in high school and then in college. I
needed to work and to pay for everything, and so
I started coaching at a high school. I met some
girls on a cheered team and they said, will you
come help us? Our coach doesn't know what she's doing,
and I went and help. So when they asked me
to come help coach, I thought this would be a
(08:02):
great way for me to still be involved in cheerleading
because I always say that God gave me cheerleading. I
found cheerleading after my dad died.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It made you happy, it did? It was was cheerleading,
was I think it was.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
But it was also healing because you can't just jump
into something as an escape but then not heal from
whatever traumas that you've gone through. And so yeah, but
it was a place I could go and forget about everything,
because after losing my dad and the impact it had
on my family, and you asked about my mom, my.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Mom my, sisters.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I just wanted to go somewhere where I could forget everything.
And I made the team the first year because I smiled.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
And that was it.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I didn't really have any talent, but I ended up
being an All American cheerleader in high school no kidding, yes, yeah,
thank you, and then being able to go and coach.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It would be a way to give back.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
But I started coaching my freshman year of college. And
it was right after something else, very traumatic happened in
my family. My older sister, my second of the oldest sister, Christine,
she was murdered by her husband while her children were
in the home.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Oh my gosh. How was Christine?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
She was in her early twenties. She was twenty four.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So we're talking five or six years after losing your father. Correct,
So your father unexpectedly passes with an aneurysm. Yes, and
then six years later you lose your sister to a murder.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I got to ask you something. I know this is
your story, But how in the world did that affect
your mom? Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It affected the rest of her life. It affects her today.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Have you ever heard of the of the Holmes Ray scale. No,
so one of I'll read far too much. But the
Homes Race Scale was something that was put together, I
think in the seventies, maybe the late sixties, by some
(10:22):
prominent psychologists who are just getting into understanding the effect
of mental stress on actual physical health. Prior to that,
there was mental health and physical health, but nobody coud
connected the dots between mental health and physical health and
how true mental health and trauma could actually make someone
(10:47):
physically ill. Today we take it for granted because we
understand that that's a real thing. But back in the
sixties they were just on the advent of trying to
understand it. And these two guys Home and Ray put
together a stress scale and it starts with death of
a spouse, goes through divorced merit of separation, and the
(11:11):
scale all the ways goes down to a minor violation
of a law. Ironically, and I mean like a major
holiday having family overs. Apparently on the stress scale, you've
got a family. You know what that's like. But each
of those stressors have a point total, and if you
(11:32):
add up those point totals and they are greater than
a particular number. You are considered high spress, high stress,
and at risk of severe health problems. And when reading
your story before just now, I only knew about what
we're going to talk about later. I had no idea
(11:53):
about the stressors prior that we've just learned about your
dad and your sister. And frankly, your chart is I
mean you should walk with a limp or something. I mean,
this is this is I mean you and your family
have been through have been through it, and your I
(12:21):
have to ask your your sister's how many children did
they have?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Well, it was her second husband, so the children were
the kids of her first husband.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
How many So there were three. There were three children
in the home.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
They were two, three, and five years old.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
What did was he drunker property?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
No, he bought a life insurance policy on her and
they had only been married six months. So he strangled
her to death. And he tried to stage it that
somebody had broken into the home and done it, but
his lives didn't add up, and so right away they
arrested him and he was convicted of first degree murder
(13:06):
and he was given life with the possibility of parole.
And this happened out in Las Vegas, and so at
that time, you only needed to serve ten years before
you're eligible for parole. And he ended up serving just
shy of twenty four years, not even the amount of
(13:27):
years my sister lived, and they let him out.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Wow. Wow, So who took the children?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
They ended up going with their biological father.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And so we've kept in touch, and I'm in touch
with my niece and my nephews and they're in their
thirties and you know, doing the best they can right now.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Do they still struggle with all of it? Yes, because
he out out of jail, I guess that doesn't give
them that has.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
To be that's part of it.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But I think, you know, losing your mother in such
a traumatic way at such a young age, I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I can't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I don't want to speak for them right now, but
obviously with anyone, that's going to have a significant impact
on your life.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And so this happened your freshman year.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
This was my freshman year of college.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Wow. And I mean that had to screwed up everything
for you all over again. I mean, school, your mother,
your family, trying to find your place in the world
and happiness, all of it. MM.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Hmm, yeah, it definitely.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
It definitely affected me, and I think it's just more
of the trauma of when my dad died. He was fine,
he went to work. It was a Saturday, and we
got a phone call that afternoon to come to the hospital.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
He was at work. He was at work.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, he had come home for lunch, and so I
was supposed to go somewhere with my friends that day,
but I didn't for whatever reason. So we were able
to have lunch with him, and I just remember those
last moments with him.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And then a few hours later, we received.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
A phone call to come to the hospital, and when
we got there, we weren't able to see him right away,
but then a priest came out and my mom had
gone in, and then a priest came out and told
my younger sister and me that he had died. And
then my mom came up to my dorm and I
wasn't expecting her, and she knocked on the door. And
(15:40):
this was before anyone really had cell phones or anything.
She knocked on my door and I opened it, and
I knew something was really wrong. I looked on her
face and she told me what had happened.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
To Christie yes, how I mean at this time we
were a guess night.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yes, I just her nineteen a week before the week before.
So she died on November eighteenth, and my birthday's November twelfth,
and my sister left me a message and I still
have it because it was one of those old voice
recorders with the tape, and she was really happy. She
said she was going to be doing what she always
(16:21):
wanted to do. She told me she was able to
quit her job, her husband was going to work more
hours so she could stay at home with her kids,
and that she was already volunteering at her son's kindergarten class.
And that's the last convert I ended up talking to
her too, But that's the last I talked to her,
just a week before. And yeah, so to have the
(16:44):
shock too is part of the trauma, that everything's fine
and then it's just.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Your world just changes.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
How did That's more than most people have to deal
with in a lifetime, much less than nineteen year old kid?
How did how do you deal with that horror? How
did you particularly now I'm not saying how does one?
I'm saying specifically, how did where did you find the
strength to do with that horror. Gina's answer to that
(17:20):
right after the break. But first, I hope you consider
signing up to join the Army at Normalfolks dot us, Guys,
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(17:40):
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Speaker 1 (17:58):
When I was when I lost my dad, I knew
I always wanted to make him proud, and so I
was very focused and determined and motivated to be the
best I could be whatever I was attempting.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
And I was an AU straight A student.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Lots of a's, lots of bees, but everything that I did,
I just I was always wanted to make my dad proud.
And my sister, this particular sister, Christine, She's the one
that I always talked to her about like boyfriend problems
or whatever. She was five years older, so she was
(18:33):
like the perfect person to talk to.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
She was a real love like big quote big sister.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, and just very just free spirited and
I always say that I can still hear her laughter,
like right now, thirty years later, I can still hear
her laughing.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And so.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I'm trying to think where I was going, what was
the questions?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
That's fair when you're reminiscent about something so painful, How
do you do?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
How did I deal with it? Throughout high school?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I sort of had faith, and when I lost my sister,
I didn't really.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know, I knew who God was, but I wasn't
really going to church or anything.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And I was just living my life, trying to do
the best I could. And I thought back, when was
I the happiest? And after my dad had died, my mom,
a whole host of things happened. But then my mom
sent my younger sister me to a Christian school, and
late in college when I was almost graduating, just thought,
(19:46):
when did I feel the happiest? When did I feel
the best? And I thought back to that time. It
was shortly after i'd lost my dad, and I'm like,
I'm just going to.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Try some different churches.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
And I started doing that, and I just thought about
a lot of the bad things that I had done
that I.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Felt bad about or guilty about. And I knew that.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I needed God's forgiveness, and I thought, how can God
forgive me for all the things I've done? And I
thought about I thought about the murder of my sister,
and I knew that I needed to release the bitterness
and the anger. And so I just arrived at a
(20:32):
place that I need to just forgive him. Not that
I would tell him that or have a conversation, but
I needed to forgive. And then that's when I really
felt God's forgiveness of me and what the Lord has
done for me. And so since that time, you know,
my faith has been fairly strong.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
It's just it's been up and down too, but yeah, yeah,
you have.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Just it's just like a relation with Jesus is just
the same as you would have with your spouse, not
the same, but or with your sibling that you know
it's great.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And sometimes it's not, but you still there's still that
love there.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And that's really what's what's gotten me through. But even
when I didn't even know or acknowledge that God was there,
I just I remember a year ago, I was on
a run and God distinctly told me, he said, Gina,
I've I've been with you that your whole life, but
(21:36):
especially when Dad died, I have been with you and
just helping me through everything.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
That's pretty phenomenal. With regard to you're talking about Christine's
ex husband slash murderer, I don't know how it works,
but I do believe there's a difference in forgiveness and
(22:06):
a pardon, and I think it is incumbent upon us
to forgive, but that does not mean you're pardoned from
your evil.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
And I really had research forgiveness, and dang, forgiveness keeps
coming up in my life. Other people I have to
forgive that that just.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Makes you normal, You know that, right? Everybody deals with
that for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, but it's yeah, forgiveness doesn't mean it excuses what
they did or the hurt that you experience and that
I still experience.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
In my in my book, there's actually a chapter on forgiveness,
an entire chapter I wrote on it, and it's it's
it speaks about grace. And one of the things that
I believe with everything I am, and I say it
in the in the book, is that forgiveness is actually
(23:00):
more important for the forgive er than the forgiven.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
And I think when people get their arms around that.
They will understand that that forgiving. Forgiveness is hardest for
the people who do the most egregious things, but it's
also most important for you to forgive those that do
the most egregious things. So you can just move on.
(23:28):
But it doesn't mean you pardon it. It just means
you forgive it. And you understand that whatever that person's
done is between his and his God, but between you
and your God. You're good.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Well, And he was eligible for parole after ten years,
and so even though I'd had that forgiveness, my family
and I we went and talked to the parole board
and we did that multiple times every three years until
twenty seventeen. So and then they released him. But that's
(24:01):
exactly right. You can forgive, but there's also consequences for
actions as well, and we knew at some point they
would release him. We were surprised when they did, but
we knew what would happen.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Well, June, at the ripe old age of nineteen, you're
a freshman in college. You've lost your father, your sister's
been murdered, and you still got to graduate. And you do,
and you do, you do the broadcast journalism.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Thing I did in college. I did a little.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, but I right before I graduated, because I went
through December of that year. That summer before I graduated,
Fort Collins had a huge flood and the flood wiped
out the entire student center of not the bottom level
level of the student center at Colorado State, and it
(24:52):
destroyed our whole TV studio with all of our tapes.
I'm nothing digital that now, nothing ninety seven nothing is digital.
And I'm sure that flood meant a lot to a
lot of different people, but for me, I was already
going in a direction of do I want to do this?
(25:12):
Because if you're going into TV news, that's going to
be your life. You drop everything. It's the latest story.
And so I all my tapes are gone, and we
didn't have a studio to even record anything new.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I had a semester left of college, so you.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Have you have no real any that's your resume.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
It is so and even what we kind of rebuilt
of the station, like I remember one of the Denver
TV stations donated all the equipment and we just at
that point, I'm like, okay, Lord, you just set me
in a new direction.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
In my life, which was which was?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I had been competing in the Miss Colorado, which goes
on to Miss America system. Really I had been, and uh, okay,
let me get my years right. So the year I
was going to graduate from college, I was the first
runner up to Miss Colorado.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Really, I was that's cool, congratulation, thank you, and.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I saying, and then I danced, So I've done both. Really, yeah,
the talent always got me. I did well on the interviews.
So after I graduated from college in December of ninety seven,
the board of directors of the pageant terminated the contract
of the Miss Colorado who had won that year and
(26:32):
asked me if I would fill in, because that's what
the first runner up does. And I was praying about
it because in six months I was going to get
ready to compete for Miss Colorado again. Being the first
runner up, I thought I had a shot.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Well, but I thought, Lord, of all the of all.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
The people, all the years, I get first runner up,
this is the year this happens. And I ended up
taking on the title of Miss Colorado.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And I honestly, well, no, I didn't win.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I filled in because they fired Colorado. What Miss Colorado
did nothing ill, moral or indecent, just not abiding by
the contract.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Right. So because your runner up, you get the thing
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
But then she decided to sue and get the title back.
She didn't want want to give back the crown, the car,
the money. And this is so long ago now, but
so I went to a judge before an arbitration, and
during that time, I'm serving as Miss Colorado. And this
was on a dateline People magazine, like I'm in the
Frank Sinatra edition the year he passed away of People magazine.
(27:35):
So it's in all of these media stories and she's
trying to get the title back. And when people ask
me about it, I just said, I I'll talk about
my platform, domestic violence awareness. And so two weeks before
I was supposed to crown the new Miss Colorado, the
judge made a decision that I'm no longer Miss Colorado
and the woman who won is the rightful Miss Colorado.
(27:58):
So I went to a press conference and they were
expecting me to say, well, I'm going to sue, I'm
getting the title back.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And when I was.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Driving to Denver for this, I thought I already served
as Miss Colorado.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I did what I set out to do.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Do I need this title by my name for the
rest of my life to show that I'm significant, that
I mean something. Is this title me or am I significant?
Because of who God created me to be? And this
is what led the news. I said this exactly. My
identity is not in a crown, it's not in a car,
it's not in money, it's not in the title of
(28:32):
Miss Colorado. My identity is in myself and in my
faith in God. I am Gina before I miss Colorado.
But I will always be grateful for this experience.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Peace out. My job, it's a wrap.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, And I share that like with my cheerleaders I
coach now, I share this when I go out and
speak because our identity is not wrapped up in and
what we achieve or our titles. We are significant and
unique because that's how God created us. And if our
life is dependent and our identity is dependent on whatever
(29:12):
you're setting out to achieve, then what happens when that
goes away? I was missed Colorado one day, and then
the next day I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Am I less significant?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
I'm a boy something a lot more than what you
achieve or what other people say about you. It needs
to be about character and commitment, integrity and the basics
of who you are and the human you're designed to
be for sure. Yeah, okay, so you meet this guy
and you marry him. Where's that house?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Oh? That was way later?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah? All right, Well what am I missing in the middle?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Well, not a lot a good single life? Actually, what
a good single life?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah? Okay, so you have a great Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Well when it said nonprofit work, it.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Kind of Miss Colorado. So you got this life in Colorado,
your sixth generation Miss Colorado, and you know that's all going.
And I think I read you went to work for
a nonprofit right, friends First or something? What is friends First?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
We did youth mentoring programs for students, so we trained
high school students to mensor middle school students. Oh school,
We had a national conference and I was there until
twenty eleven. That afforded me the opportunity to go and
speak at the school assemblies. I did a lot of
things with different states Department of Education and was able
(30:34):
to do a lot of traveling and field to see
a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
So it was really fun.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
So life's good.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So then I get.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Asked to speak at a school and my kids in Colorado,
and my future husband was sitting in the audience and
he wasn't a high school student, don't worry, but he
was the athletic director at the school, and the principal
introduced us, and I.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Thought it was kind of cute. But he will always
say this that I was very professional.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I just kind of shook his hand and didn't give
him any kind of like look or anything.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
But did he give you a kind of look?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
So he was he's athletic director. Does he also coach yes,
football ball, Yeah, that's what we're talking about, that football, basketball.
A football coach he was.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
He coached volleyball for a year.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Asketball.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, he knew nothing about it.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
He's a great motivator.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Nobody would want me to coach volleyball. It would be
like that Lasso show. What's that like, Ted Lasso or something,
the guy the football coach goes over to Europe to
coach soccer and he's just a complete disaster. That'd be
me coach at Bolligo.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, but they had nobody to coach him, so that
was just one season. Obviously they moved on to somebody else.
But yeah, he coaches football, basketball and so he's the
athletic director and they had just started a cheer program.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So I don't know it at school or.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Where the athletic director actually cares about the cheer program
where they would call me and say, hey, do you
want to come help our cheerleaders? Have never been called
by an athletic director about that.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yeah, but I knew what he was up to, so that.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
He rob did he not think anybody saw right through that,
Hey you would have come help with the cheerleaders and oh,
by the way, I'll be here. When do you show up?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah? I know. Well he was coaching basketball and I went.
The cheerleaders are shoved in a hallway to practice.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
How long did you date?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Not very long?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Actually, at that point, I was twenty eight. He was
thirty two or maybe thirty one at the time, and
neither one of us had been dating anyone.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Seriously for quite a while, like we.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Were just living our lives and just working with students,
and so I just really felt like, well, I didn't
want to date right away. I just wanted to be
friends friends first where I worked. But he's like, it's like,
I'll wait. But it's not like he was selling widgets
or something. And his colleagues were like, oh, he's a
(33:07):
great guy. I mean I had parents coming up to
me saying things like he's God's gift to this school.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
He's a great guy. Is good.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, so I felt like they were unsolicited. I mean,
he might have slipped in money sometime when I didn't
realize it to say good things about me about himself.
But yeah, then we just really just knew that this
was right. So we got married about ten months after
we met.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Really yes, yes, wow.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Mainly because of football.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Because yeah, well, I'm going to tell you should.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Get married before the season. He'd have to wait, and
I wanted to get married.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You're talking to a guy who got married when he
was a football coach. I met Lisa after the third
game of the season, and we had to get married
before spring practice started. And plus I was a football
coach and I was broke and had no money, and
(34:03):
that was when we could. We've got married December seventeenth,
around Christmas time, because it didn't have to boundy flowers
because the church was already decorated with all the Christmas stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I should have done that.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Oh oh, it's the greatest thing in the world. Oh,
Christmas Christmas. Marriages in a church are like a bargain
and everybody's festive anyway, So it was great. And that's
when I had to get married to be able to
go on a honeymoon because it was Christmas break. I
couldn't take off anywhere else because I had coaching in
school going on. So I absolutely get how you kind
(34:34):
of fit it in when you're a coach.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So we'd gotten married in August seventh, but because at
the time, everything started a little later.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, but it's start and now it's well, yeah, now.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Now all the practices are starting even earlier. So we
had decided almost two years ago to renew our vows.
But we picked a different date July seventh, because it didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Words a chair or football. So that's one of the
reasons why we picked July seventh.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
That's really that's a cool story. So you're now twenty eight.
You've you know, although clearly even today, the death of
your father still affects you, but you've coped, you moved on.
Your sister obviously still affects you, and but you've coped,
you've moved on dealing with it, and you get married
(35:29):
and you're starting a family, and you've got your college
degree and you just kind of starting this normal life
and football coach guy husband, and you get pregnant. Yes,
how long had you been married?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
We were married three years by that point, got it?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
So? Three years gotten through the newlywed thing. I mean
sounds like the natural progression of things, right, You meet,
you build your life together, you're happy, and you get pregnant,
and you wanted a family and he wanted a family, right,
and so you're all gended up and excited to have
a baby.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
So I read where you said you found out the
gender and you started buying stuff I guess for the nursery.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
We went in for the twenty week ultra sound and
the baby wasn't really moving, and she actually didn't really
say much, but she said, you're having a boy. She
the obi the yes, okay, Well it wasn't the obie,
it was it was an ultrasounds Okay, So she couldn't
tell us much. But I'm newly pregnant, first pregnancy.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
You don't you don't know anything?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, Like I don't know anything about this. All I
knew was that you had to drink a ton of water.
And I had it in the bathroom and she actually
let me because she wanted to see if the baby
would move, but the baby was really yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
She said, oh, I think I think he's just sleeping.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And his heart was beating and the heart was fine,
so we just thought he was sleeping. And our OB
was out of town. And then I went to one
of the youth conferences that my previous nonprofit and I
received a phone call from i OB and he said,
we need you to come back in to see a parenteatologist. Uh,
(37:26):
it looks like your baby may not have kidneys. And
I'm like, what are you talking about.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Something that had happened just the day before I was
I was getting ready and I had this overwhelming feeling
come over me that said, this baby will not be
with you next year.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
How why did I have that failing?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
I don't know, because I told my husband. You know,
sometimes you have bad thoughts and you just keep it
to yourself.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
But I think now, in fairness, you suddenly lost a
father when you were young, and that even though you
move on and cope, that leaves that leaves a trauma
and a scar and an emotional reaction that you never
really walk away from, and you've lost a sister traumatically
(38:37):
in ways that most of us will never understand or comprehend.
Is it possible that that you just had a sense
of dread because you'd experienced so much loss in your life.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
No, I because I didn't know about babies dying. I
didn't know about.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
That, And.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
You just really had a sense that the bad.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I felt like God was warning me because he knows that,
like anyone who knows me.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Now, I don't want.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Huge surprises, because especially shocking things. It doesn't matter if
I'm going in for dental work, I'm like, tell me
exactly when you put it you're putting the shot in,
like I want to know, or like anytime I'm getting
blood work or anything. I'm like, you need to tell
me when.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
You're doing it.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
There's there's no doubt that's a condition trauma you experienced
as a young per Oh.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Absolutely, So I'm like, and tell me it's gonna hurt, like,
don't sugarcoat it, Like, you tell me exactly what this
procedure will feel like. So the day before that had happened,
and then we get a call. So I'm trying to
read in the book What to Expect When Not Expecting,
and there's like a half page on oh, sometimes babies
die or sometimes there's problems, and there's like a half
(39:48):
page and it said something about the kidneys, but then
it said, oh, they could be born with clubbed feet,
and I'm like, okay, So we go in.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
To come out kidneys can make club feet.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I don't know. And that's how ridiculous that.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I got it. Okay, sorry, but that just how in
the world does that happen? But you're just saying, they
give you all this list of things that can happen
to babies, and it's a horrible.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Knowing what I know now, And we'll get to the
rest of the story. It's just like, thank you. This
book is not meant for people who have complications of
their pregnancy. There's other books like A Gift of Time
I'll just recommend, but there's other books for people who
have complications of their pregnancies. But so we go to
the perinetologist and he said, your baby doesn't have kidneys,
(40:43):
which basically means I have no amniotic fluid. So the
mom produces the amniotic fluid, the baby drinks it, and
then they basically pee it out and then they drink
it and pee it out and that's what develops the lungs.
So things that you know you don't know. You don't
learn that in school.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
And so if they don't have kidneys that function stop.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
It's not happening.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
And so it's mainly lung development isn't happening. And he said,
you know your baby's breach. Your baby will never turn
and he said you know most women and I said,
don't say it. And he said what did you think
I was going to say? And I said, if you're
telling me to terminate the pregnancy, I won't do that.
And he's like, well, you're going to be walking around
(41:28):
pregnant and everyone's going.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
To be asking like what you know when a you do?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And he said, and then this baby's breach, so you'll
have to have a sea section and you'll always have
to have sea sections. And he was like scaring me
into it, and I just knew that I'm not going
to make any decisions because what if they're wrong, or
what if a miracle would happen. So we decided that
we would carry the baby. And he was right in
the sense that people were asking, oh, when are you new,
(41:55):
and I'd have to buy maternity clothes and I just
never went up to the just store anymore.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I have my husband do that.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
So they wouldn't talk to me about it, and I
just tried to carry on as best I could. So
at that point, I'm twenty two weeks into the pregnancy,
and then we were told that babies with this condition
usually go and you go into labor mid thirty weeks
into the pregnancy.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
And I'm doing math, so weeks is seven and a
half months, yes, right, twenty eight yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Okay, yeah, probably, yeah, it'd be about eight months actually, Okay,
So I was due December fifth, but then I went
into labor on October twenty fifth, so I was So
I went into labor, and I had heard about an
organization called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, and
(42:55):
they provide remembrance portraits to parents experiencing the death of
a baby. And there's the potographers who volunteer their time
and go into hospitals who capture the only moments parents
spend with their babies. And a friend had told me
about them, and this was back in two thousand and seven.
The organization was founded in two thousand and five. And
at first I thought, why would you do that? But
(43:16):
I went to the website and saw these gorgeous photographs,
and I thought I should at least get it done
because I don't have to look at them.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
But this will be my only opportunity to.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Interrupt you, for sure. I when I first started view,
I went to now I lay me down to sleep,
and I read about the fact that this is volunteer
photographers going into one of the most desperate, sad times
of people they don't even know lives and sucking it
(43:51):
up and providing pictures for folks who were in a
very traumatic, sad situation, which to me is phenomenal that
it is people would volunteer do that. I also found
out that it is the largest volunteer organization for photography
(44:12):
in the world. Isn't that right? Is that stout about right?
I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I think so, yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I'm pretty sure that's right. So I want to say
that first, and I don't mean this any other way
except I just I want to tell you when I
first heard that, I couldn't help, but think is that appropriate?
(44:41):
And I don't want you to take that wrong. But
I'm just my first blush was you're taking a picture
of a passed away infant, and it it on the surface.
When you first hear it, I couldn't help but kind
(45:02):
of recoil from that and think, oh, my gosh, how
do you how do you do that? And how does
a volunteer who doesn't even know these people they're taking
these pictures of I struggled with it until I heard
(45:22):
and read some of your words. So right now, when
people hear what you've said before they've heard anything else,
They've heard that you carried a child that had almost
no percent chance of survival, that your husband went to
buy maternity clothes at the counter because you just couldn't
(45:43):
deal with the questions anymore, which I don't know he
dealt with the questions, because I'm sure somebody said, oh,
is your wife pregnant? Are you excited? And everything else,
and he had to suck it up and the pain
of that. But you guys, as a couple, making the
decision to hold on that pregnancy because is maybe the
doctors could be wrong, which I find heroic that you
(46:07):
would put yourself through that on the off chance that
your child may survive, and then preparing and and at
the at the advent of the birth and the child's
death to take pictures of that moment, which is to
(46:31):
me documenting pain. That's how I felt it when I
heard it, but once I read more, it was very
much the opposite. And but as our listeners are hearing it,
I gotta believe many of them are going, oh my gosh,
(46:52):
how do you that's almost ghoulish. But I want you
to tell our listeners why I am in anybody thinking
that when they hear the story, are so dead wrong?
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Sure well, I think sharing a little bit more in
my story too would help really answer that question. I
do want to back up a bit and just say
that I know what it's like to be in that
room with a doctor and they're encouraging, you know, termination,
(47:24):
And I know that there are many many parents who
have made that decision, and I just want to make
sure that they know, you know, they needed to make
whatever the best decision was for them. I also know
what it's like to sit there and be pressured to
do it. So the choice I made is not to
(47:44):
not value other people's choices what they made. I just
I wanted to acknowledge that for sure.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
It was just the best choice for you.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
It was the best choice for me. But it's exactly
exactly because I was freaked out. He scared me, and
so I completely understand why some people would go a
different route than me. So I do want to say that, which.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
I think is important. And I appreciate you saying that
nobody needs to feel guilty about decisions they've had to
make in horrifically traumatic situations. And you're not casting stones,
You're saying that was the best decision for you and
Rob at the time.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
And so David came on October twenty, two thousand and seven,
and we had a photographer capture our time with him,
and we got the pictures and they were and still
are the best gift we could have been given.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
They are treasured.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Having those photographs doesn't document death.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
It captures love.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
It documents David's existence, that he existed, He was still born,
he never received a birth certificate, but he existed, he lived,
He lived inside of me. And so for the parents
who lose a baby, whether they're still born or they
die shortly after birth, a lot of times people don't
(49:14):
fully understand the magnitude. But these photographs absolutely show like
this baby was real, this baby was mine. He had dark,
curly hair, chubby cheeks.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
And.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
We wouldn't have known that if we would have chosen
other paths. And those photographs will always be my most
treasured possession.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
I can't tell you how many family or how many
parents have reached out to now I lay me down
to sleep, who lost babies decades ago, who they weren't
even allowed to hold their baby, and just seeing those
photographs helps them with their healing, even though they don't.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
Have those photographs David's photographs.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
David's or other babies baby, just seeing those helps them
heal from just a different time when the babies were
swept away. But it's actually if you look at the
history of photography, typically because it was so expensive, there's
a whole collection of post mortem photography from the late
eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, and people usually received photographs
(50:38):
after someone died, right.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Remember the Western photographs of loved ones in caskets.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah, or they would kind of set them up as
if they were alive. There's a whole history and information
about that. But then when people weren't I don't know
what years it would have been, but people used to
prepare bodies for burial in their homes.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's why it's called a parlor.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
But then when it started moving to the hospitals, then
death was treated very differently. And so then you have
these moms losing babies, and I've seen these postmortem photography
sessions with babies, like you know, even like two year
olds who die, and it's I think that really changed
(51:25):
how we view death. And so really having these photographs
are the best thing. And I we even have a
board member at now I lay me down to sleep
who said he's like the first I thought that was morbid,
Like why would I do something like that? And those
are those photographs are the best gift that he could
(51:45):
have been given.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
If to tell me about if you have any recollection
of it. But I want to know about the photographer.
I want to know about the person who took your
who took David's pictures with you? And Rob, sure, how
I'm no photographer. I can't even operate the camera on
(52:09):
my phone. I don't even know how to operate my
phone on an airplane. I don't I can answer it.
That's as far as my phone operations go okay, I
can't take pictures. But even if I was a photographer,
I would think I would have a huge lump in
my throat and some reticence and anxiety over going in
(52:33):
to two parents. I guess, hospital room with a child,
and how do you do that? How did what was
that like? What was that experience for you? From that
you could tell from that photographer's perspective, how did that go?
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Well, it was a beautiful experience. And it's okay if
I share Now, I am now the CEO of now
I leat me down to sleep.
Speaker 3 (53:03):
Well, I think.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
We will. I think.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Sandy Push is one of the founders of Now I
Let Me Down to Sleep, and I so that I
want to speak to my personal experience, but this is
every I want to talk about every photographer that we
have with this organization, albeit photography conventions.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
And they're like, oh, I could never do that. I'd
be too emotional.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
And you know, Sandy, she had tears in her eyes
during the session and that made me know she cared.
And so photographers that volunteer with this organization.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Have such heart and compassion.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
But typically what happens is they go into the room,
and they have a job to do. They have a skill,
they have a talent of photography, and they know that
this is the best thing they can do with their camera.
We hear that over and over and over from our
volunteer photographers that they can as a volunteer photographer, they
(54:14):
can go in and give parents their most prized possession.
Who wouldn't do that if you have a talent of photography,
who wouldn't go and do something that would very dramatically
change the healing journey for a family to have those photographs.
(54:34):
And we have many photographers that say if they did
not photograph any other type of photography, they would still
always volunteer with Now I lay me down to sleep
because it's that powerful. So oftentimes, you know, you think about, oh,
that would be hard to go in to those sessions,
but our photographers just take their camera as kind of
(54:58):
like kind of a shield, are a barrier, and they're
they're in there getting a job done. It's typically after
the session it'll hit them, or when they're looking at
the images and doing the retouching that's when it hits them.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
And Gina, it's job's one thing these folks are volunteering
to do this. They are, that is phenomenal, they.
Speaker 1 (55:20):
Are, yeah, And it was me away who was your photographer?
It was Sandy Putch, who's one of the founders.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
And that's a sandy male female.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
A female female.
Speaker 3 (55:31):
Yes, And how did she present herself when she came in?
And had you met her prior?
Speaker 2 (55:37):
I did meet her prior. That never really happens.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
This was a kind of a different situation because hey,
let's go back to my time, my journalism time at
Colorado State.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
The executive director of.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep happened to be
in the journalism program with me and at Campus TV.
So when I called now I Lay Me Down to Sleep,
Jessica called me back and she said, is this Gina
And my last name is Harris Now And I'm like,
how do you know that's me? But she knew my voice,
and so we made the connection. And she had been
(56:09):
working at a Denver TV station, but she just wanted
to change a pace and she was running the organization.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
So she asked me if I would do.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Some interviews with the La Times and nine News in Denver.
And so at first sight, I didn't know if I
wanted this story all over. But I thought, what are
the odds that I know Jessica and I know she's
not going to be me to the wolves with the media,
and so we did the story, so we had I
had the opportunity to meet Sandy. But that's never really
(56:38):
the case with families who was a baby. Typically they
don't know about the organization ahead of time. They're in
the hospital delivering the baby, and that's when the nurse
will talk to them about Now I leat me down
to sleep, and then dispatch AUP photographer to come and
photograph to call.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yes, yes, so.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
A photograph for sitting at home. And they're part of
the they're seventeen hundred photographers volunteering for Now I lay
me down to sleep, understand, And so they're on call
and the traumatic happens, and the hospital calls and says,
we have a family, and they gather up and roll
(57:21):
and they don't know, and the family doesn't know, and
this volunteer goes into a family in the midst of
all of this and creates photos for the family. To me,
that is extraordinary. It is extraordinary from the family perspective.
It's also extraordinary from the photographer's perspective, and it's extraordinary
(57:43):
from now I lay me down to sleeves perspective that
they're able to volunteer and give to grieving parents, like
you've said, their most prosed possession, which is a remembrance
that this child was real and lived beautiful.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah. I can't think our photographers enough and it's exactly
how you describe it. In the US alone, there are
forty thousand babies that are still born or die shortly
after birth, and we serve more than four thousand a year.
And since the organization started, we photographed more than seventy
thousand babies, all by volunteers. And what they do is remarkable,
(58:30):
it's incredible. And I've been with the organization now, I've
known about it for fifteen years, but with organization for
almost twelve, and I still it's.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
Still just.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Really I don't know if surprises me. It's just is
really meaningful to know what they do.
Speaker 3 (58:53):
I couldn't have said it better myself. Absolutely amazing what
those folks do. And that concludes Part one of my
conversation with Gina Harris, and I really hope you'll listen
to part two that's now available. This amazing story is
far from over. Guys,
Having those photographs doesn't document death, It captures love. It
documents David's existence, that he existed.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
He was stillborn. He never received a birth.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Certificate, but he existed, he lived, He lived inside of me.
And so for the parents who lose a baby, whether
they're stillborn or they die shortly after birth, a lot
of times people don't fully understand the magnitude. But these
photographs absolutely show like this baby was real.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
This baby was mine.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
He had dark, curly hair, chubby cheeks, and those photographs
will always be my most treasured possession.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur,
and I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis.
And the last part unintentionally led to an oscar for
the film about our team, it's called Undefeated. I believe
our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch
(01:12):
of fancy people and nice suits talking big words that
nobody understands on CNNM Fox, but rather an army of
normal folks, US just you and me deciding hey, I
can help. That's what Gina Harris, the voice. We just
heard is done incredibly. Gina was the beneficiary of the
nonprofit that she's now the CEO of Now I Lay
(01:36):
Me Down to sleeps. One thousand, seven hundred volunteer photographers
have given free portrait sessions to seventy thousand families who've
sadly lost their children to stillburse or soon after their
burse and they desire remembrance photography with their children that
they can cherish forever. While Gina has an extraordinary story
(02:00):
to hear, the real reason she wanted to come on
is to pay tribute to their own army of normal folks.
These seventeen hundred volunteer photographers their stories right after these
brief messages from our generous sponsors, Jita Harris, Hello, welcome
(02:36):
to Memphis.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So you're a six generation Colorado, Colorado, Coloradin.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Coloraden, Colorado. Yeah, from Colorado, ic Oh, Colorado.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Got it, six general, sixth generation. If you do the math,
that's like one hundred and thirty one hundred and forty years.
Your people want I there on wagons.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I think they did. My mom.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
It's my mom's dad's side of the family. They probably
went out there for gold, but I'm sure they came
up shorthanded because I didn't.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
It because nobody lived in a mansion anywhere. No, No, well,
how are you from Colorado in one hundred and forty
years and get law school on the airport?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I don't know why. Well, sometimes I go the toll road.
Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
But it was this morning during traffic, and I didn't
go the toll road, so I turned around and went
back on it.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I did get lost going to the airport.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Just kidding up. We were visiting before we got started,
and the trip here was tough. But Denver built that
airport like seventeen hundred miles away from city in Kansas. Yeah,
it's ridiculous. I mean it's way.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Out there, and it still is even though Denver's grown just.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, Denver's blown up, right, Yeah, but it's still hadn't go.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, it's a long drive, right.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So it's in Kansas. Still. Tell me about you. Where
did you grow up in Denver?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I grew up in Arvada. It's a suburb of Denver. Yeah,
and I grew up in Arvada. I live in Littleton now,
and I went to Colorado State University in Fort Collins.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Rams yes, that's right. They're at Green and White at
I think Green and Gold Green gold house. Close.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And siblings, Yes, I have two older sisters and a
younger sister, so four of you.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
What mom do? What dad do?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
My dad was a manager at Safeway. Yeah, yeah, grocery
store manager. My mom stayed at home. She cleaned houses too,
and did some odd jobs while we were growing up.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
And what was important to your parents growing up? What
was there at those what? What? What mattered to them?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Definitely? Faith? Faith, It was a very very strong part.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We went to church every week, and my dad was
a reader and an usher and very involved.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
He taught confirmation.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
And he taught confirmation class.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
He did he did cool.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Did he teach you in your confirmation class? No?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So that's the whole other story with my dad that
maybe you don't know. When I was thirteen years old,
he was only thirty nine and he died of a
brain anorism. She went to work and died of a
brain anorism.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
How, and you were thirteen I was thirteen and your
kids were I mean your siblings were.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
How My younger sister was just a year younger, and
then my two older sisters, they were already out of
the house. My mom was married prior to my dad,
and my dad adopted my two older sisters, so they
were already I think eighteen and probably twenty two.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
How did your mom handle that?
Speaker 1 (05:58):
That was extremely difficult and definitely changed our journey significantly.
My mom suddenly had to be mom and dad, and
it was my younger sister and I. We just very
felt very much on our own a lot of times.
(06:18):
So my mom did the very best she could, but
it did. It was very devastating. My dad was the
love of her life and still is, and their anniversary
would have been a few weeks ago actually, and she
posted on social media about him being the love of
her life, and so that very much impacted her and
(06:39):
my sisters and me for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
My dad was my hero.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
And still to this day the person I most look.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Up to as that is phenomenal. And that was so
many years ago and so sudden as we get into
your story deep for that revelation is actually maybe even
more impactful as I think about your story and your journey.
(07:11):
So that happened thirteen. You were eighth ninth grade. Then
you went on finished school and went to Colorado State.
I guess yes, And what'd you major in?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I have a broadcast journalism degree.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
A newswoman like a reporter. Yeah, yes, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Did you do that a little bit?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
But I just really felt the Lord calling me into
nonprofit work. And I also wanted to coach cheerleading.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
So did you cheer in high school and college?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I did in high school and then in college. I
needed to work and to pay for everything, and so
I started coaching at a high school. I met some
girls on a cheered team and they said, will you
come help us? Our coach doesn't know what she's doing,
and I went and help. So when they asked me
to come help coach, I thought this would be a
(08:02):
great way for me to still be involved in cheerleading
because I always say that God gave me cheerleading. I
found cheerleading after my dad died.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It made you happy, it did? It was was cheerleading,
was I think it was.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
But it was also healing because you can't just jump
into something as an escape but then not heal from
whatever traumas that you've gone through. And so yeah, but
it was a place I could go and forget about everything,
because after losing my dad and the impact it had
on my family, and you asked about my mom, my.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Mom my, sisters.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I just wanted to go somewhere where I could forget everything.
And I made the team the first year because I smiled.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
And that was it.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I didn't really have any talent, but I ended up
being an All American cheerleader in high school no kidding, yes, yeah,
thank you, and then being able to go and coach.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It would be a way to give back.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
But I started coaching my freshman year of college. And
it was right after something else, very traumatic happened in
my family. My older sister, my second of the oldest sister, Christine,
she was murdered by her husband while her children were
in the home.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Oh my gosh. How was Christine?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
She was in her early twenties. She was twenty four.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So we're talking five or six years after losing your father. Correct,
So your father unexpectedly passes with an aneurysm. Yes, and
then six years later you lose your sister to a murder.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I got to ask you something. I know this is
your story, But how in the world did that affect
your mom? Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It affected the rest of her life. It affects her today.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Have you ever heard of the of the Holmes Ray scale. No,
so one of I'll read far too much. But the
Homes Race Scale was something that was put together, I
think in the seventies, maybe the late sixties, by some
(10:22):
prominent psychologists who are just getting into understanding the effect
of mental stress on actual physical health. Prior to that,
there was mental health and physical health, but nobody coud
connected the dots between mental health and physical health and
how true mental health and trauma could actually make someone
(10:47):
physically ill. Today we take it for granted because we
understand that that's a real thing. But back in the
sixties they were just on the advent of trying to
understand it. And these two guys Home and Ray put
together a stress scale and it starts with death of
a spouse, goes through divorced merit of separation, and the
(11:11):
scale all the ways goes down to a minor violation
of a law. Ironically, and I mean like a major
holiday having family overs. Apparently on the stress scale, you've
got a family. You know what that's like. But each
of those stressors have a point total, and if you
(11:32):
add up those point totals and they are greater than
a particular number. You are considered high spress, high stress,
and at risk of severe health problems. And when reading
your story before just now, I only knew about what
we're going to talk about later. I had no idea
(11:53):
about the stressors prior that we've just learned about your
dad and your sister. And frankly, your chart is I
mean you should walk with a limp or something. I mean,
this is this is I mean you and your family
have been through have been through it, and your I
(12:21):
have to ask your your sister's how many children did
they have?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Well, it was her second husband, so the children were
the kids of her first husband.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
How many So there were three. There were three children
in the home.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
They were two, three, and five years old.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
What did was he drunker property?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
No, he bought a life insurance policy on her and
they had only been married six months. So he strangled
her to death. And he tried to stage it that
somebody had broken into the home and done it, but
his lives didn't add up, and so right away they
arrested him and he was convicted of first degree murder
(13:06):
and he was given life with the possibility of parole.
And this happened out in Las Vegas, and so at
that time, you only needed to serve ten years before
you're eligible for parole. And he ended up serving just
shy of twenty four years, not even the amount of
(13:27):
years my sister lived, and they let him out.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Wow. Wow, So who took the children?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
They ended up going with their biological father.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And so we've kept in touch, and I'm in touch
with my niece and my nephews and they're in their
thirties and you know, doing the best they can right now.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Do they still struggle with all of it? Yes, because
he out out of jail, I guess that doesn't give
them that has.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
To be that's part of it.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But I think, you know, losing your mother in such
a traumatic way at such a young age, I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I can't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I don't want to speak for them right now, but
obviously with anyone, that's going to have a significant impact
on your life.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And so this happened your freshman year.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
This was my freshman year of college.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Wow. And I mean that had to screwed up everything
for you all over again. I mean, school, your mother,
your family, trying to find your place in the world
and happiness, all of it. MM.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Hmm, yeah, it definitely.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
It definitely affected me, and I think it's just more
of the trauma of when my dad died. He was fine,
he went to work. It was a Saturday, and we
got a phone call that afternoon to come to the hospital.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
He was at work. He was at work.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, he had come home for lunch, and so I
was supposed to go somewhere with my friends that day,
but I didn't for whatever reason. So we were able
to have lunch with him, and I just remember those
last moments with him.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And then a few hours later, we received.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
A phone call to come to the hospital, and when
we got there, we weren't able to see him right away,
but then a priest came out and my mom had
gone in, and then a priest came out and told
my younger sister and me that he had died. And
then my mom came up to my dorm and I
wasn't expecting her, and she knocked on the door. And
(15:40):
this was before anyone really had cell phones or anything.
She knocked on my door and I opened it, and
I knew something was really wrong. I looked on her
face and she told me what had happened.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
To Christie yes, how I mean at this time we
were a guess night.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yes, I just her nineteen a week before the week before.
So she died on November eighteenth, and my birthday's November twelfth,
and my sister left me a message and I still
have it because it was one of those old voice
recorders with the tape, and she was really happy. She
said she was going to be doing what she always
(16:21):
wanted to do. She told me she was able to
quit her job, her husband was going to work more
hours so she could stay at home with her kids,
and that she was already volunteering at her son's kindergarten class.
And that's the last convert I ended up talking to
her too, But that's the last I talked to her,
just a week before. And yeah, so to have the
(16:44):
shock too is part of the trauma, that everything's fine
and then it's just.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Your world just changes.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
How did That's more than most people have to deal
with in a lifetime, much less than nineteen year old kid?
How did how do you deal with that horror? How
did you particularly now I'm not saying how does one?
I'm saying specifically, how did where did you find the
strength to do with that horror. Gina's answer to that
(17:20):
right after the break. But first, I hope you consider
signing up to join the Army at Normalfolks dot us, Guys,
I honestly believe this army can change our country. By
signing up, you'll also receive our weekly newsletter that has
short episode summaries and in case you prefer reading about
(17:40):
the Army members or celebrating each week, as well as
fun and exciting updates about our movement. We'll be right back. Well.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
When I was when I lost my dad, I knew
I always wanted to make him proud, and so I
was very focused and determined and motivated to be the
best I could be whatever I was attempting.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
And I was an AU straight A student.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Lots of a's, lots of bees, but everything that I did,
I just I was always wanted to make my dad proud.
And my sister, this particular sister, Christine, She's the one
that I always talked to her about like boyfriend problems
or whatever. She was five years older, so she was
(18:33):
like the perfect person to talk to.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
She was a real love like big quote big sister.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, and just very just free spirited and
I always say that I can still hear her laughter,
like right now, thirty years later, I can still hear
her laughing.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And so.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I'm trying to think where I was going, what was
the questions?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
That's fair when you're reminiscent about something so painful, How
do you do?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
How did I deal with it? Throughout high school?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I sort of had faith, and when I lost my sister,
I didn't really.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know, I knew who God was, but I wasn't
really going to church or anything.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And I was just living my life, trying to do
the best I could. And I thought back, when was
I the happiest? And after my dad had died, my mom,
a whole host of things happened. But then my mom
sent my younger sister me to a Christian school, and
late in college when I was almost graduating, just thought,
(19:46):
when did I feel the happiest? When did I feel
the best? And I thought back to that time. It
was shortly after i'd lost my dad, and I'm like,
I'm just going to.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Try some different churches.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
And I started doing that, and I just thought about
a lot of the bad things that I had done
that I.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Felt bad about or guilty about. And I knew that.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I needed God's forgiveness, and I thought, how can God
forgive me for all the things I've done? And I
thought about I thought about the murder of my sister,
and I knew that I needed to release the bitterness
and the anger. And so I just arrived at a
(20:32):
place that I need to just forgive him. Not that
I would tell him that or have a conversation, but
I needed to forgive. And then that's when I really
felt God's forgiveness of me and what the Lord has
done for me. And so since that time, you know,
my faith has been fairly strong.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
It's just it's been up and down too, but yeah, yeah,
you have.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Just it's just like a relation with Jesus is just
the same as you would have with your spouse, not
the same, but or with your sibling that you know
it's great.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And sometimes it's not, but you still there's still that
love there.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And that's really what's what's gotten me through. But even
when I didn't even know or acknowledge that God was there,
I just I remember a year ago, I was on
a run and God distinctly told me, he said, Gina,
I've I've been with you that your whole life, but
(21:36):
especially when Dad died, I have been with you and
just helping me through everything.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
That's pretty phenomenal. With regard to you're talking about Christine's
ex husband slash murderer, I don't know how it works,
but I do believe there's a difference in forgiveness and
(22:06):
a pardon, and I think it is incumbent upon us
to forgive, but that does not mean you're pardoned from
your evil.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
And I really had research forgiveness, and dang, forgiveness keeps
coming up in my life. Other people I have to
forgive that that just.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Makes you normal, You know that, right? Everybody deals with
that for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, but it's yeah, forgiveness doesn't mean it excuses what
they did or the hurt that you experience and that
I still experience.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
In my in my book, there's actually a chapter on forgiveness,
an entire chapter I wrote on it, and it's it's
it speaks about grace. And one of the things that
I believe with everything I am, and I say it
in the in the book, is that forgiveness is actually
(23:00):
more important for the forgive er than the forgiven.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
And I think when people get their arms around that.
They will understand that that forgiving. Forgiveness is hardest for
the people who do the most egregious things, but it's
also most important for you to forgive those that do
the most egregious things. So you can just move on.
(23:28):
But it doesn't mean you pardon it. It just means
you forgive it. And you understand that whatever that person's
done is between his and his God, but between you
and your God. You're good.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Well, And he was eligible for parole after ten years,
and so even though I'd had that forgiveness, my family
and I we went and talked to the parole board
and we did that multiple times every three years until
twenty seventeen. So and then they released him. But that's
(24:01):
exactly right. You can forgive, but there's also consequences for
actions as well, and we knew at some point they
would release him. We were surprised when they did, but
we knew what would happen.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Well, June, at the ripe old age of nineteen, you're
a freshman in college. You've lost your father, your sister's
been murdered, and you still got to graduate. And you do,
and you do, you do the broadcast journalism.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Thing I did in college. I did a little.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, but I right before I graduated, because I went
through December of that year. That summer before I graduated,
Fort Collins had a huge flood and the flood wiped
out the entire student center of not the bottom level
level of the student center at Colorado State, and it
(24:52):
destroyed our whole TV studio with all of our tapes.
I'm nothing digital that now, nothing ninety seven nothing is digital.
And I'm sure that flood meant a lot to a
lot of different people, but for me, I was already
going in a direction of do I want to do this?
(25:12):
Because if you're going into TV news, that's going to
be your life. You drop everything. It's the latest story.
And so I all my tapes are gone, and we
didn't have a studio to even record anything new.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I had a semester left of college, so you.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Have you have no real any that's your resume.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
It is so and even what we kind of rebuilt
of the station, like I remember one of the Denver
TV stations donated all the equipment and we just at
that point, I'm like, okay, Lord, you just set me
in a new direction.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
In my life, which was which was?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I had been competing in the Miss Colorado, which goes
on to Miss America system. Really I had been, and uh, okay,
let me get my years right. So the year I
was going to graduate from college, I was the first
runner up to Miss Colorado.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Really, I was that's cool, congratulation, thank you, and.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I saying, and then I danced, So I've done both. Really, yeah,
the talent always got me. I did well on the interviews.
So after I graduated from college in December of ninety seven,
the board of directors of the pageant terminated the contract
of the Miss Colorado who had won that year and
(26:32):
asked me if I would fill in, because that's what
the first runner up does. And I was praying about
it because in six months I was going to get
ready to compete for Miss Colorado again. Being the first
runner up, I thought I had a shot.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Well, but I thought, Lord, of all the of all.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
The people, all the years, I get first runner up,
this is the year this happens. And I ended up
taking on the title of Miss Colorado.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And I honestly, well, no, I didn't win.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I filled in because they fired Colorado. What Miss Colorado
did nothing ill, moral or indecent, just not abiding by
the contract.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Right. So because your runner up, you get the thing
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
But then she decided to sue and get the title back.
She didn't want want to give back the crown, the car,
the money. And this is so long ago now, but
so I went to a judge before an arbitration, and
during that time, I'm serving as Miss Colorado. And this
was on a dateline People magazine, like I'm in the
Frank Sinatra edition the year he passed away of People magazine.
(27:35):
So it's in all of these media stories and she's
trying to get the title back. And when people ask
me about it, I just said, I I'll talk about
my platform, domestic violence awareness. And so two weeks before
I was supposed to crown the new Miss Colorado, the
judge made a decision that I'm no longer Miss Colorado
and the woman who won is the rightful Miss Colorado.
(27:58):
So I went to a press conference and they were
expecting me to say, well, I'm going to sue, I'm
getting the title back.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And when I was.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Driving to Denver for this, I thought I already served
as Miss Colorado.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I did what I set out to do.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Do I need this title by my name for the
rest of my life to show that I'm significant, that
I mean something. Is this title me or am I significant?
Because of who God created me to be? And this
is what led the news. I said this exactly. My
identity is not in a crown, it's not in a car,
it's not in money, it's not in the title of
(28:32):
Miss Colorado. My identity is in myself and in my
faith in God. I am Gina before I miss Colorado.
But I will always be grateful for this experience.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Peace out. My job, it's a wrap.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, And I share that like with my cheerleaders I
coach now, I share this when I go out and
speak because our identity is not wrapped up in and
what we achieve or our titles. We are significant and
unique because that's how God created us. And if our
life is dependent and our identity is dependent on whatever
(29:12):
you're setting out to achieve, then what happens when that
goes away? I was missed Colorado one day, and then
the next day I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Am I less significant?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
I'm a boy something a lot more than what you
achieve or what other people say about you. It needs
to be about character and commitment, integrity and the basics
of who you are and the human you're designed to
be for sure. Yeah, okay, so you meet this guy
and you marry him. Where's that house?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Oh? That was way later?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah? All right, Well what am I missing in the middle?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Well, not a lot a good single life? Actually, what
a good single life?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah? Okay, so you have a great Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Well when it said nonprofit work, it.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Kind of Miss Colorado. So you got this life in Colorado,
your sixth generation Miss Colorado, and you know that's all going.
And I think I read you went to work for
a nonprofit right, friends First or something? What is friends First?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
We did youth mentoring programs for students, so we trained
high school students to mensor middle school students. Oh school,
We had a national conference and I was there until
twenty eleven. That afforded me the opportunity to go and
speak at the school assemblies. I did a lot of
things with different states Department of Education and was able
(30:34):
to do a lot of traveling and field to see
a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
So it was really fun.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
So life's good.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So then I get.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Asked to speak at a school and my kids in Colorado,
and my future husband was sitting in the audience and
he wasn't a high school student, don't worry, but he
was the athletic director at the school, and the principal
introduced us, and I.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Thought it was kind of cute. But he will always
say this that I was very professional.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I just kind of shook his hand and didn't give
him any kind of like look or anything.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
But did he give you a kind of look?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
So he was he's athletic director. Does he also coach yes,
football ball, Yeah, that's what we're talking about, that football, basketball.
A football coach he was.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
He coached volleyball for a year.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Asketball.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, he knew nothing about it.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
He's a great motivator.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Nobody would want me to coach volleyball. It would be
like that Lasso show. What's that like, Ted Lasso or something,
the guy the football coach goes over to Europe to
coach soccer and he's just a complete disaster. That'd be
me coach at Bolligo.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, but they had nobody to coach him, so that
was just one season. Obviously they moved on to somebody else.
But yeah, he coaches football, basketball and so he's the
athletic director and they had just started a cheer program.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So I don't know it at school or.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Where the athletic director actually cares about the cheer program
where they would call me and say, hey, do you
want to come help our cheerleaders? Have never been called
by an athletic director about that.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yeah, but I knew what he was up to, so that.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
He rob did he not think anybody saw right through that,
Hey you would have come help with the cheerleaders and oh,
by the way, I'll be here. When do you show up?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah? I know. Well he was coaching basketball and I went.
The cheerleaders are shoved in a hallway to practice.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
How long did you date?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Not very long?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Actually, at that point, I was twenty eight. He was
thirty two or maybe thirty one at the time, and
neither one of us had been dating anyone.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Seriously for quite a while, like we.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Were just living our lives and just working with students,
and so I just really felt like, well, I didn't
want to date right away. I just wanted to be
friends friends first where I worked. But he's like, it's like,
I'll wait. But it's not like he was selling widgets
or something. And his colleagues were like, oh, he's a
(33:07):
great guy. I mean I had parents coming up to
me saying things like he's God's gift to this school.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
He's a great guy. Is good.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, so I felt like they were unsolicited. I mean,
he might have slipped in money sometime when I didn't
realize it to say good things about me about himself.
But yeah, then we just really just knew that this
was right. So we got married about ten months after
we met.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Really yes, yes, wow.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Mainly because of football.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Because yeah, well, I'm going to tell you should.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Get married before the season. He'd have to wait, and
I wanted to get married.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You're talking to a guy who got married when he
was a football coach. I met Lisa after the third
game of the season, and we had to get married
before spring practice started. And plus I was a football
coach and I was broke and had no money, and
(34:03):
that was when we could. We've got married December seventeenth,
around Christmas time, because it didn't have to boundy flowers
because the church was already decorated with all the Christmas stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I should have done that.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Oh oh, it's the greatest thing in the world. Oh,
Christmas Christmas. Marriages in a church are like a bargain
and everybody's festive anyway, So it was great. And that's
when I had to get married to be able to
go on a honeymoon because it was Christmas break. I
couldn't take off anywhere else because I had coaching in
school going on. So I absolutely get how you kind
(34:34):
of fit it in when you're a coach.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So we'd gotten married in August seventh, but because at
the time, everything started a little later.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, but it's start and now it's well, yeah, now.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Now all the practices are starting even earlier. So we
had decided almost two years ago to renew our vows.
But we picked a different date July seventh, because it didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Words a chair or football. So that's one of the
reasons why we picked July seventh.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
That's really that's a cool story. So you're now twenty eight.
You've you know, although clearly even today, the death of
your father still affects you, but you've coped, you moved on.
Your sister obviously still affects you, and but you've coped,
you've moved on dealing with it, and you get married
(35:29):
and you're starting a family, and you've got your college
degree and you just kind of starting this normal life
and football coach guy husband, and you get pregnant. Yes,
how long had you been married?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
We were married three years by that point, got it?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
So? Three years gotten through the newlywed thing. I mean
sounds like the natural progression of things, right, You meet,
you build your life together, you're happy, and you get pregnant,
and you wanted a family and he wanted a family, right,
and so you're all gended up and excited to have
a baby.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
So I read where you said you found out the
gender and you started buying stuff I guess for the nursery.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
We went in for the twenty week ultra sound and
the baby wasn't really moving, and she actually didn't really
say much, but she said, you're having a boy. She
the obi the yes, okay, Well it wasn't the obie,
it was it was an ultrasounds Okay, So she couldn't
tell us much. But I'm newly pregnant, first pregnancy.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
You don't you don't know anything?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, Like I don't know anything about this. All I
knew was that you had to drink a ton of water.
And I had it in the bathroom and she actually
let me because she wanted to see if the baby
would move, but the baby was really yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
She said, oh, I think I think he's just sleeping.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And his heart was beating and the heart was fine,
so we just thought he was sleeping. And our OB
was out of town. And then I went to one
of the youth conferences that my previous nonprofit and I
received a phone call from i OB and he said,
we need you to come back in to see a parenteatologist. Uh,
(37:26):
it looks like your baby may not have kidneys. And
I'm like, what are you talking about.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Something that had happened just the day before I was
I was getting ready and I had this overwhelming feeling
come over me that said, this baby will not be
with you next year.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
How why did I have that failing?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
I don't know, because I told my husband. You know,
sometimes you have bad thoughts and you just keep it
to yourself.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
But I think now, in fairness, you suddenly lost a
father when you were young, and that even though you
move on and cope, that leaves that leaves a trauma
and a scar and an emotional reaction that you never
really walk away from, and you've lost a sister traumatically
(38:37):
in ways that most of us will never understand or comprehend.
Is it possible that that you just had a sense
of dread because you'd experienced so much loss in your life.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
No, I because I didn't know about babies dying. I
didn't know about.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
That, And.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
You just really had a sense that the bad.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I felt like God was warning me because he knows that,
like anyone who knows me.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Now, I don't want.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Huge surprises, because especially shocking things. It doesn't matter if
I'm going in for dental work, I'm like, tell me
exactly when you put it you're putting the shot in,
like I want to know, or like anytime I'm getting
blood work or anything. I'm like, you need to tell
me when.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
You're doing it.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
There's there's no doubt that's a condition trauma you experienced
as a young per Oh.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Absolutely, So I'm like, and tell me it's gonna hurt, like,
don't sugarcoat it, Like, you tell me exactly what this
procedure will feel like. So the day before that had happened,
and then we get a call. So I'm trying to
read in the book What to Expect When Not Expecting,
and there's like a half page on oh, sometimes babies
die or sometimes there's problems, and there's like a half
(39:48):
page and it said something about the kidneys, but then
it said, oh, they could be born with clubbed feet,
and I'm like, okay, So we go in.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
To come out kidneys can make club feet.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I don't know. And that's how ridiculous that.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I got it. Okay, sorry, but that just how in
the world does that happen? But you're just saying, they
give you all this list of things that can happen
to babies, and it's a horrible.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Knowing what I know now, And we'll get to the
rest of the story. It's just like, thank you. This
book is not meant for people who have complications of
their pregnancy. There's other books like A Gift of Time
I'll just recommend, but there's other books for people who
have complications of their pregnancies. But so we go to
the perinetologist and he said, your baby doesn't have kidneys,
(40:43):
which basically means I have no amniotic fluid. So the
mom produces the amniotic fluid, the baby drinks it, and
then they basically pee it out and then they drink
it and pee it out and that's what develops the lungs.
So things that you know you don't know. You don't
learn that in school.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
And so if they don't have kidneys that function stop.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
It's not happening.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
And so it's mainly lung development isn't happening. And he said,
you know your baby's breach. Your baby will never turn
and he said you know most women and I said,
don't say it. And he said what did you think
I was going to say? And I said, if you're
telling me to terminate the pregnancy, I won't do that.
And he's like, well, you're going to be walking around
(41:28):
pregnant and everyone's going.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
To be asking like what you know when a you do?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And he said, and then this baby's breach, so you'll
have to have a sea section and you'll always have
to have sea sections. And he was like scaring me
into it, and I just knew that I'm not going
to make any decisions because what if they're wrong, or
what if a miracle would happen. So we decided that
we would carry the baby. And he was right in
the sense that people were asking, oh, when are you new,
(41:55):
and I'd have to buy maternity clothes and I just
never went up to the just store anymore.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I have my husband do that.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
So they wouldn't talk to me about it, and I
just tried to carry on as best I could. So
at that point, I'm twenty two weeks into the pregnancy,
and then we were told that babies with this condition
usually go and you go into labor mid thirty weeks
into the pregnancy.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
And I'm doing math, so weeks is seven and a
half months, yes, right, twenty eight yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Okay, yeah, probably, yeah, it'd be about eight months actually, Okay,
So I was due December fifth, but then I went
into labor on October twenty fifth, so I was So
I went into labor, and I had heard about an
organization called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, and
(42:55):
they provide remembrance portraits to parents experiencing the death of
a baby. And there's the potographers who volunteer their time
and go into hospitals who capture the only moments parents
spend with their babies. And a friend had told me
about them, and this was back in two thousand and seven.
The organization was founded in two thousand and five. And
at first I thought, why would you do that? But
(43:16):
I went to the website and saw these gorgeous photographs,
and I thought I should at least get it done
because I don't have to look at them.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
But this will be my only opportunity to.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Interrupt you, for sure. I when I first started view,
I went to now I lay me down to sleep,
and I read about the fact that this is volunteer
photographers going into one of the most desperate, sad times
of people they don't even know lives and sucking it
(43:51):
up and providing pictures for folks who were in a
very traumatic, sad situation, which to me is phenomenal that
it is people would volunteer do that. I also found
out that it is the largest volunteer organization for photography
(44:12):
in the world. Isn't that right? Is that stout about right?
I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I think so, yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I'm pretty sure that's right. So I want to say
that first, and I don't mean this any other way
except I just I want to tell you when I
first heard that, I couldn't help, but think is that appropriate?
(44:41):
And I don't want you to take that wrong. But
I'm just my first blush was you're taking a picture
of a passed away infant, and it it on the surface.
When you first hear it, I couldn't help but kind
(45:02):
of recoil from that and think, oh, my gosh, how
do you how do you do that? And how does
a volunteer who doesn't even know these people they're taking
these pictures of I struggled with it until I heard
(45:22):
and read some of your words. So right now, when
people hear what you've said before they've heard anything else,
They've heard that you carried a child that had almost
no percent chance of survival, that your husband went to
buy maternity clothes at the counter because you just couldn't
(45:43):
deal with the questions anymore, which I don't know he
dealt with the questions, because I'm sure somebody said, oh,
is your wife pregnant? Are you excited? And everything else,
and he had to suck it up and the pain
of that. But you guys, as a couple, making the
decision to hold on that pregnancy because is maybe the
doctors could be wrong, which I find heroic that you
(46:07):
would put yourself through that on the off chance that
your child may survive, and then preparing and and at
the at the advent of the birth and the child's
death to take pictures of that moment, which is to
(46:31):
me documenting pain. That's how I felt it when I
heard it, but once I read more, it was very
much the opposite. And but as our listeners are hearing it,
I gotta believe many of them are going, oh my gosh,
(46:52):
how do you that's almost ghoulish. But I want you
to tell our listeners why I am in anybody thinking
that when they hear the story, are so dead wrong?
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Sure well, I think sharing a little bit more in
my story too would help really answer that question. I
do want to back up a bit and just say
that I know what it's like to be in that
room with a doctor and they're encouraging, you know, termination,
(47:24):
And I know that there are many many parents who
have made that decision, and I just want to make
sure that they know, you know, they needed to make
whatever the best decision was for them. I also know
what it's like to sit there and be pressured to
do it. So the choice I made is not to
(47:44):
not value other people's choices what they made. I just
I wanted to acknowledge that for sure.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
It was just the best choice for you.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
It was the best choice for me. But it's exactly
exactly because I was freaked out. He scared me, and
so I completely understand why some people would go a
different route than me. So I do want to say that, which.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
I think is important. And I appreciate you saying that
nobody needs to feel guilty about decisions they've had to
make in horrifically traumatic situations. And you're not casting stones,
You're saying that was the best decision for you and
Rob at the time.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
And so David came on October twenty, two thousand and seven,
and we had a photographer capture our time with him,
and we got the pictures and they were and still
are the best gift we could have been given.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
They are treasured.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Having those photographs doesn't document death.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
It captures love.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
It documents David's existence, that he existed, He was still born,
he never received a birth certificate, but he existed, he lived,
He lived inside of me. And so for the parents
who lose a baby, whether they're still born or they
die shortly after birth, a lot of times people don't
(49:14):
fully understand the magnitude. But these photographs absolutely show like
this baby was real, this baby was mine. He had dark,
curly hair, chubby cheeks.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
And.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
We wouldn't have known that if we would have chosen
other paths. And those photographs will always be my most
treasured possession.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
I can't tell you how many family or how many
parents have reached out to now I lay me down
to sleep, who lost babies decades ago, who they weren't
even allowed to hold their baby, and just seeing those
photographs helps them with their healing, even though they don't.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
Have those photographs David's photographs.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
David's or other babies baby, just seeing those helps them
heal from just a different time when the babies were
swept away. But it's actually if you look at the
history of photography, typically because it was so expensive, there's
a whole collection of post mortem photography from the late
eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, and people usually received photographs
(50:38):
after someone died, right.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Remember the Western photographs of loved ones in caskets.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah, or they would kind of set them up as
if they were alive. There's a whole history and information
about that. But then when people weren't I don't know
what years it would have been, but people used to
prepare bodies for burial in their homes.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's why it's called a parlor.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
But then when it started moving to the hospitals, then
death was treated very differently. And so then you have
these moms losing babies, and I've seen these postmortem photography
sessions with babies, like you know, even like two year
olds who die, and it's I think that really changed
(51:25):
how we view death. And so really having these photographs
are the best thing. And I we even have a
board member at now I lay me down to sleep
who said he's like the first I thought that was morbid,
Like why would I do something like that? And those
are those photographs are the best gift that he could
(51:45):
have been given.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
If to tell me about if you have any recollection
of it. But I want to know about the photographer.
I want to know about the person who took your
who took David's pictures with you? And Rob, sure, how
I'm no photographer. I can't even operate the camera on
(52:09):
my phone. I don't even know how to operate my
phone on an airplane. I don't I can answer it.
That's as far as my phone operations go okay, I
can't take pictures. But even if I was a photographer,
I would think I would have a huge lump in
my throat and some reticence and anxiety over going in
(52:33):
to two parents. I guess, hospital room with a child,
and how do you do that? How did what was
that like? What was that experience for you? From that
you could tell from that photographer's perspective, how did that go?
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Well, it was a beautiful experience. And it's okay if
I share Now, I am now the CEO of now
I leat me down to sleep.
Speaker 3 (53:03):
Well, I think.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
We will. I think.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Sandy Push is one of the founders of Now I
Let Me Down to Sleep, and I so that I
want to speak to my personal experience, but this is
every I want to talk about every photographer that we
have with this organization, albeit photography conventions.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
And they're like, oh, I could never do that. I'd
be too emotional.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
And you know, Sandy, she had tears in her eyes
during the session and that made me know she cared.
And so photographers that volunteer with this organization.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Have such heart and compassion.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
But typically what happens is they go into the room,
and they have a job to do. They have a skill,
they have a talent of photography, and they know that
this is the best thing they can do with their camera.
We hear that over and over and over from our
volunteer photographers that they can as a volunteer photographer, they
(54:14):
can go in and give parents their most prized possession.
Who wouldn't do that if you have a talent of photography,
who wouldn't go and do something that would very dramatically
change the healing journey for a family to have those photographs.
(54:34):
And we have many photographers that say if they did
not photograph any other type of photography, they would still
always volunteer with Now I lay me down to sleep
because it's that powerful. So oftentimes, you know, you think about, oh,
that would be hard to go in to those sessions,
but our photographers just take their camera as kind of
(54:58):
like kind of a shield, are a barrier, and they're
they're in there getting a job done. It's typically after
the session it'll hit them, or when they're looking at
the images and doing the retouching that's when it hits them.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
And Gina, it's job's one thing these folks are volunteering
to do this. They are, that is phenomenal, they.
Speaker 1 (55:20):
Are, yeah, And it was me away who was your photographer?
It was Sandy Putch, who's one of the founders.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
And that's a sandy male female.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
A female female.
Speaker 3 (55:31):
Yes, And how did she present herself when she came in?
And had you met her prior?
Speaker 2 (55:37):
I did meet her prior. That never really happens.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
This was a kind of a different situation because hey,
let's go back to my time, my journalism time at
Colorado State.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
The executive director of.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep happened to be
in the journalism program with me and at Campus TV.
So when I called now I Lay Me Down to Sleep,
Jessica called me back and she said, is this Gina
And my last name is Harris Now And I'm like,
how do you know that's me? But she knew my voice,
and so we made the connection. And she had been
(56:09):
working at a Denver TV station, but she just wanted
to change a pace and she was running the organization.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
So she asked me if I would do.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Some interviews with the La Times and nine News in Denver.
And so at first sight, I didn't know if I
wanted this story all over. But I thought, what are
the odds that I know Jessica and I know she's
not going to be me to the wolves with the media,
and so we did the story, so we had I
had the opportunity to meet Sandy. But that's never really
(56:38):
the case with families who was a baby. Typically they
don't know about the organization ahead of time. They're in
the hospital delivering the baby, and that's when the nurse
will talk to them about Now I leat me down
to sleep, and then dispatch AUP photographer to come and
photograph to call.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yes, yes, so.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
A photograph for sitting at home. And they're part of
the they're seventeen hundred photographers volunteering for Now I lay
me down to sleep, understand, And so they're on call
and the traumatic happens, and the hospital calls and says,
we have a family, and they gather up and roll
(57:21):
and they don't know, and the family doesn't know, and
this volunteer goes into a family in the midst of
all of this and creates photos for the family. To me,
that is extraordinary. It is extraordinary from the family perspective.
It's also extraordinary from the photographer's perspective, and it's extraordinary
(57:43):
from now I lay me down to sleeves perspective that
they're able to volunteer and give to grieving parents, like
you've said, their most prosed possession, which is a remembrance
that this child was real and lived beautiful.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah. I can't think our photographers enough and it's exactly
how you describe it. In the US alone, there are
forty thousand babies that are still born or die shortly
after birth, and we serve more than four thousand a year.
And since the organization started, we photographed more than seventy
thousand babies, all by volunteers. And what they do is remarkable,
(58:30):
it's incredible. And I've been with the organization now, I've
known about it for fifteen years, but with organization for
almost twelve, and I still it's.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
Still just.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Really I don't know if surprises me. It's just is
really meaningful to know what they do.
Speaker 3 (58:53):
I couldn't have said it better myself. Absolutely amazing what
those folks do. And that concludes Part one of my
conversation with Gina Harris, and I really hope you'll listen
to part two that's now available. This amazing story is
far from over. Guys,
Host
Bill Courtney
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