February 27, 2024 • 38 mins
After struggling with addiction for almost 2 decades, Scott Strode found hope while ice climbing. The healing power of nature and community radically transformed his life. And Scott couldn’t not share his secret with the rest of the world too. The Phoenix was born and this year their sober movement is expected to serve more than 400,000 people!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
And I would go to this climbing gym and boulder
and get punch passes, and I'd stand there with my
harness in my hand, waiting on a Friday night because
that's what the corkboard said.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And no one showed up, you know. And I stood
there a lot of Friday nights like, oh, well maybe tonight,
maybe tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It was but I, in my heart, I kind of
knew that there was a desire there. I felt like
it had to click for folks. And sure enough, one night,
this guy Barry walked in and he looked around. He's like,
does anybody else she got to show up? And I
was like, oh, maybe later, you know. And so he
just started climb over here.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Oh you're the first in four weeks, but they got
you're here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
So we started climbing and then there were two or
three folks, and that first year, they're about seventy folks
that came to Phoenix.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Portney,
normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur,
and I've been a football coach in Inner City Memphis.
And the last part, well, we accidentally ended up with
an oscar for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated.
I believe our country's problems will never be solved by
(01:17):
a bunch of fancy people and nice suits talking big
words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather
an army of normal folks, us, just you and me
saying you know what I can help. That's what Scott Strode,
the voice we just heard, has done. From the humble
beginnings of Only Scott and Barry, the Phoenix expects to
(01:39):
serve more than four hundred thousand people this year. Their
movement leverages the power of community, fitness, and other meaningful
activities to change how society approaches addiction and recovery. And guys,
it's working. I cannot wait for you to meet Scott
right after these brief messages from our sponsors, Scott Strode,
(02:12):
bro thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I've read a lot of your story, and I've watched
Ted Talk and I've been looking forward to talking to you.
You and I have a lot of similarities in our life,
and the things you've done I find pretty amazing. So
let's let's introduce her audience to Scott the kid we
(02:36):
grew up, how you grew up and who you are?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So I grew up in Pennsylvania in a town called
Lancaster's outside of Philly, about an hour and forty five
minutes or so, and it was sort of rural, you know,
Pennsylvania farmland. And my mom and my dad divorced pretty early,
so kind of split my time between my mom, who
was a single working mom, and my dad, who had
(03:02):
a farm in even more rural Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And you know, I.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Had a pretty dynamic childhood. You know, I share this
because it's really part of who I became. But you know,
my dad had untreated mental health struggles, and so it
was always trying to figure out who he was, you know,
who he was going to be when we spent time
with him. And then when my mom remarried, it sort
(03:30):
of brought alcoholism into our family. So you know, in
one home I was kind of navigating that alcoholic dynamic,
and then in the other home, I was navigating the
mental health stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And as a kid, your mom was your mom struggling
with alcoholism or your stepdad my stepdad.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, and then his family more broadly, we're pretty heavy drinkers.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So your father was a farmer.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
He didn't have a working farm, but he lived on
an old farm and was renovating an old farmhouse. He
had goats and stuff like that, but it was he
was a contractor at the time, so he was doing
work on other people's homes.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
What was the nature of his minililis?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
You know, we've never really were able to figure that out.
You know, My guess is it was untreated bipolar.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
But then I think of it.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
It's sort of like as that deteriorates over time and
with age. You know, there was this pretty powerful like
narcissistic element too, and then I think he had some
some sort of disconnects from like kind of cognitive distortions
at some point, you know, where he really wasn't the
way he saw the world, really wasn't how the world
(04:45):
was around him, and and that ultimately led to him
experience and homelessness.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
For the bulk of the later part of his life.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And we tried to support him around that and help
him out of that. But you know, we realized by
the time we were like eight or nine, we were
kind of helping to parent him instead of him parenting us.
And that created a pretty pretty tough childhood.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
When you were it sounds like your mom and dad
had a joint custody because it sounds like you were
back and forth. Was your mom aware of that?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
She was, but it was sort of a different time,
like it was. It was just on the end of.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
That sort of culture where like kind of women were
seen as the failure of the marriage. Even if you know,
it was like there was still this little bit of
a like misogynistic culture, and her trying to get full
custody of us in the court system was pretty pretty tough.
And it wasn't until my brother hit eighteen and the
judge actually said, what do you want to do? When
(05:48):
my brother chose not to want to go visit my
dad anymore, that then the judge kind of gave us
that choice too, and that was sort of our reprieve
from those those weekends with him where we were, you know,
pretty much we kind of joke that we grew up feral,
but we kind of did, you know, we were just
(06:08):
like running around a farm pretty much unattended most of
the time, out in the woods, playing and swimming across ponds,
and you know, it sounds pretty idealistic, you know of
like you know, in this rural setting. But truth is,
we we probably should have been cared for more and
didn't really always know what we're going to have for meals,
(06:28):
and you know, he would He decided to renovate the house,
and he tore out a wall and never really put
it back because it was kind of in a manic phase.
So we had one wall that was just plastic that
was like tacked up around it, and you know, he
did the house with a wood stove. I don't think
we had running water. I know we had an outhouse
for the bulk of our time there, but it was like,
(06:51):
you know, it was a pretty sort of impoverished setting.
And then with my mom, it was kind of a
different dynamic. She was working, had a job, had a
place for us, had some financial opportunity, and so we've
kind of lived in two worlds.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So I've got to believe I'm trying to put myself
in the shoes of an eight year old. I mean, honestly,
in the deepest recesses of your mind, that had to
be frightening and at the very least you couldn't have
felt completely safe ever with your father.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, I mean I honed my skill at being able
to read subtle social cues so that I knew how
to show up to best keep him calm, you know,
and that that was something you you know, we started learning.
My guess is I probably learned it before I even remember,
(07:48):
But I remember really thoughtfully trying to figure out is
this a time where I talk? Is this a time
where I listen? Is this a time where I, you know, leave,
or a time where I stay. You know, you never
really if he was in a good space or a
bad space, or if he was manic, or if he
was depressed or and you know, he would he would
(08:10):
get fairly emotionally abusive, you know, very demeaning and you know,
kind of blaming. And when you're a little kid like that,
you just you soak that up. Because your world's so
contained to what you know that you actually think you're
the problem. You start to you start to believe that narrative.
And you know, that's no surprise. When I first tried
(08:34):
booze and drugs, it made that go away.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Scott. I. I'm the son of a five times divorced
mother whose father left when he was when I was four,
I can remember at fourteen or fifteen, looking in the
mirror and wondering what was so broken about me that
(08:58):
no man found me worthy of sticking around and investing in.
Because not only divorces, there were boyfriends that were kind
of long term that I started feeling comfortable with and
developing relationship with that then we're gone, And at some
point in a kid's ethos, when your parents are supposed
(09:19):
to be the safest place in the world, when they're
the opposite of that, you really do start to wonder
what have I done? And so I can absolutely identify
with what you're saying when after you've been if you've
been through that, you do start to wonder what's broken
in you? And maybe the dad's right and candidly, that
(09:42):
is both abuse and trauma.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yep, yeah, I think you framed it up perfectly. And
what I think now looking back, you know, is that
that that sort of those the tinting of the lens
that I was forming with which I see the world
through was so subtle. You know, those elements were subtle
(10:06):
at that young age, but that tint was always there.
So even as I went into my adolescence, I always
had that those self esteem wounds I was still trying
to manage as I tried to form nurturing relationships with others.
That was still present as I tried to find my
identity and self worth. That was the lens I saw
the world through. And until I realized I had to
(10:29):
shatter that thing and see things clearly for the first time,
it was it was a tough road.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
How do fifty one fifty five? That lens didn't shatter
for me until about eight years ago. And I say
that because I I want our listeners to understand that
these kind of things that happened to children are deeply
(10:55):
concreted in a person's psyche, and it takes Many don't
get over it, but those who somehow manage a way
to get over it, it does take often years and decades,
and it carries itself into your own marriages and relationships
with your own children and your spouses and those you're
close to. And I think I hear you saying that
(11:18):
was the case for you.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, And I was in a similar sort of
timeframe as you. You know that it took me I
could sort of start to manage that out of a
lot of pieces of my life and those experiences were
kind of the foundation of the nonprofit i'd later build.
But that core, that like deepest core of that pain
(11:40):
was there until relatively recently, you know. And it took
me doing some deeper sort of trauma work to really
understand that that was within me. And no surprise why
this is so broadly experienced, right, because then we carry
it into the next generation and we hand it down.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
There's a quote that's pain has passed from generation to
generation until somebody is willing to feel it. And that
just really speaks to me because you know, my dad's
dad left him when he was six, right.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I was just about to ask you or about to say,
I'll bet your father experienced some of the same things.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And was probably just doing the best he could, you know,
like he was. He probably disentangled a lot of that
pain before it got to us, you know, and protected
us from some of it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
But some of it he didn't.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
He didn't have the skills or the tools or understanding
to be able to and and you know, I'm a
dad now, you know, later in life, and and I
think about that a lot, like you know, my my
son asked me the other day, what angry means, you know,
and the fact that he does he doesn't know that
from lived experience is a blessing.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, because I sure did.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I would have asked him he got about a month,
because it's going to take that long for me to tangle.
So that's dad. Yeah, Mom sounds like she's trying and
working hard but has made a poor choice or you
got that. Those are my words for something. Men that
(13:16):
I grew up with. And was he also abusive?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
He wasn't. He was.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It was more on both of them were more on
the like emotional side, like yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
He had more of that like.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Excellence, like you need to be here, you need to
aspire to this, be this like excellent person. And but
he'd say that after you know, eight martinis, and I
was like.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Is that excellent? You know, like yeah, yeah so. But
but the truth is the same thing.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Now I'm in my adolescence, I'm like trying to really
find my identity and and it just felt like I
kept getting ground down by this, like you know, I
should know better, I should do better, I should achieve better.
I should you know, be at this place of excellence
and and and of course we're all like, you know,
(14:10):
there's this woman PM Melody who talks a lot about
early childhood trauma. Said, we're all perfectly imperfect and that's
the truth, even about my stepdad and my dad, and
you know, all of us have those good parts of
us and those tough parts of us. But at the
time I thought I was failing consistently because I couldn't
achieve this sort of high bar.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And so you carry I carry people carry that that
have this kind of stuff going on in their childhood
and adolescence. And regardless of what facade you put on,
this stuff is bounce around inside your heart, your head,
your soul, your thoughts about yourself, and coping with that
(14:58):
in adolescence is often very, very difficult. And you turned alcohol. Yeah,
and now a few messages from our general sponsors. But
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(15:21):
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Speaker 1 (15:57):
I had my first drink when I was eleven, a beer.
My cousins gave it to me, and I think I
think they thought it would like deter me from drinking
it so bad.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
It was like a Yeah, a friend of mine's dad
caught him dipping Copenhagen and he took him outside and
made him put the entire can in his mouth, and
of course he vomited because it was just so that
was one of those.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, it was one of those.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And then we were like water skiing on the chesapeak
or something and my cousin's boat, and they thought it
would be funny if I had this beer and it
would like turn me away from it. And finally one
of the wiser cousins dumped it over the.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Side and got me out of it, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
But but it wasn't until I went back and spent
time with my friends and they they asked me about it,
and they were like dis mesmerized by the story. They're like,
you had a beer, Oh my gosh, And all of
a sudden I was like, oh, these people are interested
in me, Like these people, you know, like they're talking
to me. I'm like, I feel lifted, you know, this,
(17:00):
this is what I've been looking.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
For, is like the one thing you weren't getting at home. Yep,
you got there. You've got a positive reinforcement on a
very negative thing.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
And then I realized, like, hey, there's a whole liquor
closet at my house, like because the cabinet's too small,
so I can, I can? I bet I could pull
a handle of vodka of there and no one whatever notice,
you know. And that was it. It just kind of
I was kind of off and running.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
So you're telling me you were drinking at twelve, thirteen,
fourteen being cool all that.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, yeah, it was uh.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And you know, it's it's not uncommon for folks who
struggled with substance, you used to say, where the first
time they had that, they just felt at peace or
at ease.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And and for me, it was that combined with people
wanting to be around me and and sort of wanting
to share time with.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Me, and and.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I felt like it was caring about me and loving me,
but it's really they just wanted to party with me.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
But that was good with that, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
You know, it's funny, that's not very dissimilar from the
many people I've interviewed who got into gangs at thirteen
and fourteen. It was the same. I thought people were
loving me and everything else. But it's the same thing
seeking having holes in a part of your psyche and
(18:33):
your soul that are filled. They're positively reinforced by negative things.
And it sounds like it's not much different. Alcohol. Was
that for you? Gangs? Maybe that for kids from the
hood whatever, all stemming frankly from childhood trauma.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Really yeah, yeah, yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
And if you I mean imagine that group of kids
I was hanging out with, their stories were probably similar,
and they what brought them together around this thing with
me was probably a similar desire for connection.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And I think, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
You could you could tell a story, you know, about
somebody getting involved in gang life that could sound very
much like somebody seeking safety, and then it turn turns
into something that is much more destructive.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
And that's how my addiction was.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So alcohol was a gateway too, I guess was it
weed first? I mean, yeah, it was pretty mud. I
don't want to generalize your story, but typically it's alcohol, weed,
maybe elude or something, and then ultimately cocaine or heroin.
I mean that is almost the story verbatim I've heard
one hundred times.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, yeah, and it was very similar. You know, I
could I could. I knew where the booze was, I
could steal it. I'd have the cool parties. Then I was,
you know, as my adolescence progressed, I was still struggling
with the mental health stuff and depression and self worth stuff,
and and through getting some mental health support, I met
(20:00):
somebody who sold weed, and and one day I was
buying weed from her and.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I was like, what's that. She's like, hey, it's coke.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
We're going to try a little bit. And I tried it,
same thing as the first beer. I told my buddies.
They're like, no way, you did that. You tried it?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What was it like?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And I was like, I bet I can get some,
you know, And and then you know, I was sort
of it. It turned into a hole a whole sort
of another level. I think like addiction has these like
trap doors that you feel like it's you're you're sort
of on a more normal trajectory. And then you fall
through one of those and it's like a whole another
(20:36):
layer that you dropped into.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
When you were sober and straight, and you look shelf
in the mirror. What were you seeing then?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
You know, like I was when I got into recovery,
I found my way into a boxing gym and and
some guys in Boston. You know, a friend of mine
was a Golden Gloves fighter and she's like, coach y,
I'll teach you about the sport. And I got into
that boxing gym. This is like, you know, at twenty
four now. And as I started to hit the bag
(21:10):
and like learn about the sport and build some technique,
I started to feel this self confidence that I didn't
have before. And then somebody, you know, I had this
opportunity to try climbing for the first time, and and
getting to the top of the climb started to build
that self esteem. And there were some other sober guys
in that boxing gym and I started to build a
little fellowship and it started to just crack open enough
(21:33):
light into this understanding that like how I viewed myself
all these years was was lies right, Like it wasn't.
I did have this innate strength and this innate value
and I could achieve these things. I put my mind
towards and and and then.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I got hungry for that.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I got hungry for that feeling and wanted to keep
chasing that instead instead of the drinking and the drugging.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Do you feel like do you feel like you made
a choice?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I think I made a choice, like I I think
when we talk about addiction, we often talk about like
somebody's got to hit bottom before they change their path.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I don't really see it that way.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I think for a lot of us, hitting bottom might
just be the true bottom, right the end of our life,
or it's over, you know, that kind of thing. I
think that we have these little windows where we have
a moment of perspective on our life.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, mirror, That's what
I'm asking yep.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And it was that it was like you realize that,
like your dreams of who you thought you could be
had been stripped away, sometimes in this very like insidious
way that you didn't realize it was happening. And I
just found some things that started giving me some of
those dreams back, and I wanted to do that stuff more,
and I want to do that more than what I
(22:56):
used to do. And I realized that people around me
actually cared about me in that in this new world,
and that a lot of my buddies from the old
one just wanted to go drink and get high.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I we jumped ahead a little. There's a there's a
part of the story. I think it's important for people
to know before they understand so much about you. That
really makes what you do now incredible is somewhere along
the line in there, before you started the ice climbing,
your mom knew you were in trouble. And I don't
(23:32):
really understand it. I'd like you to kind of tell
me how it worked. But and you ended up mess
around on boats or something. I don't know what. Yeah,
build in the blanks for me on that.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So you know when my mom was I think, trying
to get me out of the environment I was in,
and I.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
She recognized it, she saw you were in trouble.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, And and she was seeking any opportunity, you know,
and I I I'm dyslexic. I'm horribly dyslexic. And in
those days prior to that, there really weren't a lot
of resources for kids with learning disabilities, and there was
a program for kids with dyslexia, and so we went
and interviewed. It was a boarding school in Massachusetts, and
(24:14):
I went up to interview and they mentioned this boat
program that was like a semester at sea, and I
was like, well, that sounds cool, you know. I was like,
that sounds way better than what I'm doing in Pennsylvania,
you know.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
And and.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
But somewhere in my heart, I think I knew I
knew I had to change. I was afraid of the
path I was on. And my mom and I talked
on the train on the way home, and I decided
to go on this program. And I think it's exactly
what I needed.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
There's something about nature has this like this very clear
cause and effect, and like I would always suld have
shared that. The captain would say, hey, be careful going
forward in the storm, and I'd be like whatever with
my mohawk and my don't tread on me like leather jacket,
you know, and and uh, what you're dealing with?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you had mohaul. Yeah, now it's
now it's more like this way mohawk.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
But yeah, I get it. But it seems from a
breakfast club.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, totally, that was it.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But but then a wave would like crush you on
the deck of the ship and you'd be like, maybe
he's onto something, you know, maybe the captain.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
And captain knows what he's talking about it.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and you started feeling this like sense of community
with your crew, like you had to you had to
work together. And when you when you let somebody down there,
it wasn't just you, like with your self fulfilling prophecy
about your own sort of self worth. It's all this
internal sort of monologue. You you were actually letting down
(25:52):
a team that cared about you and needed you. And
then so you find yourself showing up in a different way.
And and I didn't realize it the time, but the
foundation that I learned on the ship was really the
elements and the principles of what would become the nonprofit later.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
We'll be right back. How do you end up in Boulder?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, so in kind of a roundabout way, Like so
when I got got into recovery, got in the boxing gym,
found this brochure about climbing, and signed up for this
climbing class and really changed my life. You know, by
getting to the top of that climb and then jumped
into that stuff with both feet and eventually was able
to quit drinking and using. And I would just like
(26:52):
wait outside the boxing gym with my gym bag with
a couple other guys that were as dedicated, and the
door would open and we'd go in and stay there
till they'd kick us out, you know. And that became
my early recovery. And between that and going up climbing
in the White Mountains in New Hampshire, you know, I
was just all in on that stuff and at this
point was in recovery.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
And fell in love.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
This is almost a self recovery, Scott. It doesn't sound
like you're you're just finding ways to change your own
life at this point, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm asking,
is that right? No?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That is right, And you know I didn't have the
awareness at the time, but but I was still chasing
that self worth like I had to. I started climbing.
Then I had to climb harder climbs, you know. I
started doing triathlon. Then I had to do Iron Man,
you know, like I had to. Everything had to get
always level up or else I didn't feel like I
(27:51):
was proving to myself that I that I had intrinsic strength.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Actually, I believe you're overcoming voices that were still in
your head from when you were eight years old. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, you you'd cross a finish line at an iron
man and say, man, I should have done better in
the bike.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I could have been faster in the swim.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I was like, like you, just never I never stopped
to celebrate anything I accomplished because I felt like I
still messed it up, you know. And and it was
those that that internal monologue. But but those activities drew
me out to Colorado and ultimately to Boulder, where the
Phoenix was born.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
So I've read or Herd or something something. I thought
it was pretty funny. You, uh, you decided this outdoors
thing was kind of cool, and you decided, Hey, I'm
going to be an outdoorsy guy. And you show up
to like a I don't know, right, some kind of place. Oh, yeah,
(28:57):
I got a place, and and and you say, hey,
I've decided I'm gonna be out doorsy. Why don't you
tell me what I need? Yeah, he's right, And at
the time that's actually sober that day.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
But the guy kind of looked at me and he
was like, I guess you need a dor text jacket,
you know, And actually it was great advice, you know,
that was like probably the best thing to start with.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
And the guys that work at out doorsy place or
kind of granola anyway, so I can kind of see
him looking at you, going, uh a coat.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Coat, yeah, exactly, loves maybe the quit smoking.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Is that what you need? You know, like, but but
a boat a bag for your I don't know, right, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That you know, I was walking out with my new
gore Tex jacket and that's where I saw that it
was actually ice climbing.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Brochure, and really you saw it there.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I saw it there, and I thought, this is the
craziest thing I've ever seen, and for some reason I
wanted to do it. And that was you know, then
I stayed sober Friday night to do a climbing lesson
on Saturday, and and that was you know, I started
like regulating my drinking so I could climb on the weekends.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And that was the beginning of like weaning off of it.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's really kind of interesting, you really were, you know,
you hear a lot of stories about people that quote
go to therapy. You were in your own you're figuring
out your own personal therapy at this point. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, and the power of the outdoors, Like I think
it was probably from those days on the boat. I
knew that, you know, gone into nature and that that
sense of awe that nature can kind of deliver is therapeutic,
you know. And I just started going out there and
that was filling me up in a different way and
(30:57):
slowly started having less nights of the week when I
was drinking.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I can't let this escape me. It's just a thought. Yeah, Well,
the irony that you just told me that when you
were with your dad, the way y'all escape your dad's
house was you went out and ran around in the
trees and jump creeks and played in the trees and
(31:21):
grass and stuff. And the irony of that I think
shouldn't be lost on any of this.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, And actually, sorry, well that's like a that's pretty
profound thing to kind of pick up on, because because
you're right, you know, like when I think.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
About back to my childhood, like the.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Most joyous memories of my childhood are being out in
the woods of my siblings, you know, like playing in
the pond, and it's like even the fond memories I
do have with my dad were, you know, sitting at
a tree line at sunset, watching where the pheasants would
go into roost, you know, because small game season was
(32:02):
coming up, and we were just listening to them, the
sound of them, their wings coming over.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
The top of the hill.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And you know, it was in those little moments where
I actually got to bond with him, and I always
feel like that was really who he was. The other
stuff was just the noise getting in the way of
his from his own story.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah, well, it all ties together, Bud. I mean, it
makes complete sense to me as I'm sitting here listening
to you, and I think it's really sweet that you
say that's who he really was. I mean, even though
he had problems, he chose to live on a farmhouse
out in the middle of the woods, so clearly he
(32:46):
was drawn to the same things that his son was
drawn to ultimately, which is interesting, I.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Think, Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
It just shows that that history, that lineage of pain
isn't really there's no one who's who's responsible for that.
It's at some point we need to forgive everybody in
the chain and start new.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
So brother Scott's deciding I'm going to climb some ice
stuff and boulder with my new gortex jacket a granola
guy gave me, and I've got my ice climbing brochure
in my hand. Yeah, and now I'm in Bolder. Take
us from there.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, and I I mean, I, you know, just to
be honest, right, I jumped right into that just with
the same vigor I was drinking and using with. And
I was like I was after it. I was training
for Ironman. Then I race iron Man. Then I had
to do a twenty four hour mountain bike race. Then
I had to do that race solo. Then I had
to you know, like I just started this, you know,
(33:48):
I was. I did transfer the addiction, but the difference
was inherent, and all of those activities were things that
sort of at a foundation a level, helped me start
to heal. And years later I realized that the real
magic of those activities wasn't the finish line. It was
actually the people I was training with. It was those
(34:11):
relationships that was really the bedrock of my sort of
support network. So those you know, when.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
You're ony of them recovering addicts as well.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Or well, funny you asked, because one was my best
friend and climbing partner, Ben Court. You know, we met
at a climbing gym that he was a manager at,
started talking about climbing and realized we were both in recovery.
Then we started spending our days in Rocky Mountain National
Park climbing together. And then my other friend who I
(34:44):
climbed with was a clinical social worker, so she like
she just started to put the pieces together that you know,
as a social worker, what she realized the magic was
was not necessarily getting that kid that she was supporting
to the appointment he had to go to. It was
the drive there and the time that they got to
(35:05):
talk while they were in that sort of like parallel
activity of just sitting in the car listening to music,
talking about life. That was the most therapeutic part of
that experience.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
And it's the.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Same thing that Ben and I were having in the mountains.
We were tied into a climbing rope, we were climbing,
We weren't really talking about our addiction story, but we
were building new identity and new memories together that started
to eventually push out those old negative feelings.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
What you just said is amazing do you know Bob Zacchio.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
In Bob Zachio, the therapy under a hood, all right,
when you get an extra forty five minutes, go back
to an army in normal folks library. We've only been
out a year, but early was an interview I did
with the kind named Bob Zakio, who is a social
worker therapist and was working specific with kids from the
(36:01):
same background we're talking about in your life right now,
oftentimes doing court ordered therapy, which he found completely useless yep,
and so very frustrated and wanting to make a difference.
One day, he just one of his kids showed up
that he's supposed to work with. It's dealing with addiction
(36:23):
and drugs and alcohol and all kinds of stuff. And
he says, come on, and he took them out in
the parking lot and he taught him how to cast
her reel. I was why. I was just talking to him,
and he found out these kids that don't want to
talk to me, if I take him out of the
office and just interact with them, they open up. Anyway.
(36:47):
Seven years later, he now has therapy at auto mechanic shops.
He has therapy at screen shops, he has therapy, fishing,
he has therapy and all of these things. And he
does the therapy to work that needs to be done
with kids, but he doesn't do it in office. He
does it while they're engaged in something that's interesting. And
(37:10):
the rate of his success of getting kids on the
right track is like twelve times of other social workers.
And anyway, it's a great story. But he said exactly
what you just said, that it wasn't the therapy that mattered.
It was a time to and from therapy and the
actual real lab organic interaction that made the difference. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, And that sound that's very similar to what the
phoenix became is that we just we realize that by
sharing this. I think of it this way, it's like
we would kind of go out climbing and face this
greater adversity together and get back from that safely because
we relied on each other and our own gifts, you know,
in that setting. And then Ben and I would be
(37:56):
closer and supporting each other because we went through that together.
So when I had a tough day in life, I
could turn to him because that vulnerability had already been created.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
And I think that.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
The phoenix was just an idea about how we could
do that at scale.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Scott Strode,
and you don't want to miss Part two that's now available,
as we dive into how Scott turned the idea of
recovery program and community into the movement that it is today. Guys,
together we can change this country, but it starts with you.
(38:37):
I'll see you in Part two.
And I would go to this climbing gym and boulder
and get punch passes, and I'd stand there with my
harness in my hand, waiting on a Friday night because
that's what the corkboard said.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And no one showed up, you know. And I stood
there a lot of Friday nights like, oh, well maybe tonight,
maybe tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It was but I, in my heart, I kind of
knew that there was a desire there. I felt like
it had to click for folks. And sure enough, one night,
this guy Barry walked in and he looked around. He's like,
does anybody else she got to show up? And I
was like, oh, maybe later, you know. And so he
just started climb over here.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Oh you're the first in four weeks, but they got
you're here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
So we started climbing and then there were two or
three folks, and that first year, they're about seventy folks
that came to Phoenix.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Portney,
normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur,
and I've been a football coach in Inner City Memphis.
And the last part, well, we accidentally ended up with
an oscar for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated.
I believe our country's problems will never be solved by
(01:17):
a bunch of fancy people and nice suits talking big
words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather
an army of normal folks, us, just you and me
saying you know what I can help. That's what Scott Strode,
the voice we just heard, has done. From the humble
beginnings of Only Scott and Barry, the Phoenix expects to
(01:39):
serve more than four hundred thousand people this year. Their
movement leverages the power of community, fitness, and other meaningful
activities to change how society approaches addiction and recovery. And guys,
it's working. I cannot wait for you to meet Scott
right after these brief messages from our sponsors, Scott Strode,
(02:12):
bro thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I've read a lot of your story, and I've watched
Ted Talk and I've been looking forward to talking to you.
You and I have a lot of similarities in our life,
and the things you've done I find pretty amazing. So
let's let's introduce her audience to Scott the kid we
(02:36):
grew up, how you grew up and who you are?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So I grew up in Pennsylvania in a town called
Lancaster's outside of Philly, about an hour and forty five
minutes or so, and it was sort of rural, you know,
Pennsylvania farmland. And my mom and my dad divorced pretty early,
so kind of split my time between my mom, who
was a single working mom, and my dad, who had
(03:02):
a farm in even more rural Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And you know, I.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Had a pretty dynamic childhood. You know, I share this
because it's really part of who I became. But you know,
my dad had untreated mental health struggles, and so it
was always trying to figure out who he was, you know,
who he was going to be when we spent time
with him. And then when my mom remarried, it sort
(03:30):
of brought alcoholism into our family. So you know, in
one home I was kind of navigating that alcoholic dynamic,
and then in the other home, I was navigating the
mental health stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And as a kid, your mom was your mom struggling
with alcoholism or your stepdad my stepdad.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, and then his family more broadly, we're pretty heavy drinkers.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So your father was a farmer.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
He didn't have a working farm, but he lived on
an old farm and was renovating an old farmhouse. He
had goats and stuff like that, but it was he
was a contractor at the time, so he was doing
work on other people's homes.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
What was the nature of his minililis?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
You know, we've never really were able to figure that out.
You know, My guess is it was untreated bipolar.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
But then I think of it.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
It's sort of like as that deteriorates over time and
with age. You know, there was this pretty powerful like
narcissistic element too, and then I think he had some
some sort of disconnects from like kind of cognitive distortions
at some point, you know, where he really wasn't the
way he saw the world, really wasn't how the world
(04:45):
was around him, and and that ultimately led to him
experience and homelessness.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
For the bulk of the later part of his life.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And we tried to support him around that and help
him out of that. But you know, we realized by
the time we were like eight or nine, we were
kind of helping to parent him instead of him parenting us.
And that created a pretty pretty tough childhood.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
When you were it sounds like your mom and dad
had a joint custody because it sounds like you were
back and forth. Was your mom aware of that?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
She was, but it was sort of a different time,
like it was. It was just on the end of.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
That sort of culture where like kind of women were
seen as the failure of the marriage. Even if you know,
it was like there was still this little bit of
a like misogynistic culture, and her trying to get full
custody of us in the court system was pretty pretty tough.
And it wasn't until my brother hit eighteen and the
judge actually said, what do you want to do? When
(05:48):
my brother chose not to want to go visit my
dad anymore, that then the judge kind of gave us
that choice too, and that was sort of our reprieve
from those those weekends with him where we were, you know,
pretty much we kind of joke that we grew up feral,
but we kind of did, you know, we were just
(06:08):
like running around a farm pretty much unattended most of
the time, out in the woods, playing and swimming across ponds,
and you know, it sounds pretty idealistic, you know of
like you know, in this rural setting. But truth is,
we we probably should have been cared for more and
didn't really always know what we're going to have for meals,
(06:28):
and you know, he would He decided to renovate the house,
and he tore out a wall and never really put
it back because it was kind of in a manic phase.
So we had one wall that was just plastic that
was like tacked up around it, and you know, he
did the house with a wood stove. I don't think
we had running water. I know we had an outhouse
for the bulk of our time there, but it was like,
(06:51):
you know, it was a pretty sort of impoverished setting.
And then with my mom, it was kind of a
different dynamic. She was working, had a job, had a
place for us, had some financial opportunity, and so we've
kind of lived in two worlds.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So I've got to believe I'm trying to put myself
in the shoes of an eight year old. I mean, honestly,
in the deepest recesses of your mind, that had to
be frightening and at the very least you couldn't have
felt completely safe ever with your father.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, I mean I honed my skill at being able
to read subtle social cues so that I knew how
to show up to best keep him calm, you know,
and that that was something you you know, we started learning.
My guess is I probably learned it before I even remember,
(07:48):
But I remember really thoughtfully trying to figure out is
this a time where I talk? Is this a time
where I listen? Is this a time where I, you know, leave,
or a time where I stay. You know, you never
really if he was in a good space or a
bad space, or if he was manic, or if he
was depressed or and you know, he would he would
(08:10):
get fairly emotionally abusive, you know, very demeaning and you know,
kind of blaming. And when you're a little kid like that,
you just you soak that up. Because your world's so
contained to what you know that you actually think you're
the problem. You start to you start to believe that narrative.
And you know, that's no surprise. When I first tried
(08:34):
booze and drugs, it made that go away.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Scott. I. I'm the son of a five times divorced
mother whose father left when he was when I was four,
I can remember at fourteen or fifteen, looking in the
mirror and wondering what was so broken about me that
(08:58):
no man found me worthy of sticking around and investing in.
Because not only divorces, there were boyfriends that were kind
of long term that I started feeling comfortable with and
developing relationship with that then we're gone, And at some
point in a kid's ethos, when your parents are supposed
(09:19):
to be the safest place in the world, when they're
the opposite of that, you really do start to wonder
what have I done? And so I can absolutely identify
with what you're saying when after you've been if you've
been through that, you do start to wonder what's broken
in you? And maybe the dad's right and candidly, that
(09:42):
is both abuse and trauma.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yep, yeah, I think you framed it up perfectly. And
what I think now looking back, you know, is that
that that sort of those the tinting of the lens
that I was forming with which I see the world
through was so subtle. You know, those elements were subtle
(10:06):
at that young age, but that tint was always there.
So even as I went into my adolescence, I always
had that those self esteem wounds I was still trying
to manage as I tried to form nurturing relationships with others.
That was still present as I tried to find my
identity and self worth. That was the lens I saw
the world through. And until I realized I had to
(10:29):
shatter that thing and see things clearly for the first time,
it was it was a tough road.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
How do fifty one fifty five? That lens didn't shatter
for me until about eight years ago. And I say
that because I I want our listeners to understand that
these kind of things that happened to children are deeply
(10:55):
concreted in a person's psyche, and it takes Many don't
get over it, but those who somehow manage a way
to get over it, it does take often years and decades,
and it carries itself into your own marriages and relationships
with your own children and your spouses and those you're
close to. And I think I hear you saying that
(11:18):
was the case for you.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, And I was in a similar sort of
timeframe as you. You know that it took me I
could sort of start to manage that out of a
lot of pieces of my life and those experiences were
kind of the foundation of the nonprofit i'd later build.
But that core, that like deepest core of that pain
(11:40):
was there until relatively recently, you know. And it took
me doing some deeper sort of trauma work to really
understand that that was within me. And no surprise why
this is so broadly experienced, right, because then we carry
it into the next generation and we hand it down.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
There's a quote that's pain has passed from generation to
generation until somebody is willing to feel it. And that
just really speaks to me because you know, my dad's
dad left him when he was six, right.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I was just about to ask you or about to say,
I'll bet your father experienced some of the same things.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And was probably just doing the best he could, you know,
like he was. He probably disentangled a lot of that
pain before it got to us, you know, and protected
us from some of it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
But some of it he didn't.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
He didn't have the skills or the tools or understanding
to be able to and and you know, I'm a
dad now, you know, later in life, and and I
think about that a lot, like you know, my my
son asked me the other day, what angry means, you know,
and the fact that he does he doesn't know that
from lived experience is a blessing.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, because I sure did.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I would have asked him he got about a month,
because it's going to take that long for me to tangle.
So that's dad. Yeah, Mom sounds like she's trying and
working hard but has made a poor choice or you
got that. Those are my words for something. Men that
(13:16):
I grew up with. And was he also abusive?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
He wasn't. He was.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It was more on both of them were more on
the like emotional side, like yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
He had more of that like.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Excellence, like you need to be here, you need to
aspire to this, be this like excellent person. And but
he'd say that after you know, eight martinis, and I
was like.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Is that excellent? You know, like yeah, yeah so. But
but the truth is the same thing.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Now I'm in my adolescence, I'm like trying to really
find my identity and and it just felt like I
kept getting ground down by this, like you know, I
should know better, I should do better, I should achieve better.
I should you know, be at this place of excellence
and and and of course we're all like, you know,
(14:10):
there's this woman PM Melody who talks a lot about
early childhood trauma. Said, we're all perfectly imperfect and that's
the truth, even about my stepdad and my dad, and
you know, all of us have those good parts of
us and those tough parts of us. But at the
time I thought I was failing consistently because I couldn't
achieve this sort of high bar.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And so you carry I carry people carry that that
have this kind of stuff going on in their childhood
and adolescence. And regardless of what facade you put on,
this stuff is bounce around inside your heart, your head,
your soul, your thoughts about yourself, and coping with that
(14:58):
in adolescence is often very, very difficult. And you turned alcohol. Yeah,
and now a few messages from our general sponsors. But
first I hope you'll consider becoming a Premium member of
the Army at Normalfolks dot us. By becoming one for
(15:21):
ten bucks a month or one thousand dollars a year,
you can get access to cool benefits like bonus episodes,
a yearly group call, and even a one on one
call with me. Frankly, guys, Premium memberships also help us
to grow this army that our country desperately needs right now.
So I hope you'll think about it. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
I had my first drink when I was eleven, a beer.
My cousins gave it to me, and I think I
think they thought it would like deter me from drinking
it so bad.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
It was like a Yeah, a friend of mine's dad
caught him dipping Copenhagen and he took him outside and
made him put the entire can in his mouth, and
of course he vomited because it was just so that
was one of those.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, it was one of those.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And then we were like water skiing on the chesapeak
or something and my cousin's boat, and they thought it
would be funny if I had this beer and it
would like turn me away from it. And finally one
of the wiser cousins dumped it over the.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Side and got me out of it, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
But but it wasn't until I went back and spent
time with my friends and they they asked me about it,
and they were like dis mesmerized by the story. They're like,
you had a beer, Oh my gosh, And all of
a sudden I was like, oh, these people are interested
in me, Like these people, you know, like they're talking
to me. I'm like, I feel lifted, you know, this,
(17:00):
this is what I've been looking.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
For, is like the one thing you weren't getting at home. Yep,
you got there. You've got a positive reinforcement on a
very negative thing.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
And then I realized, like, hey, there's a whole liquor
closet at my house, like because the cabinet's too small,
so I can, I can? I bet I could pull
a handle of vodka of there and no one whatever notice,
you know. And that was it. It just kind of
I was kind of off and running.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
So you're telling me you were drinking at twelve, thirteen,
fourteen being cool all that.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, yeah, it was uh.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And you know, it's it's not uncommon for folks who
struggled with substance, you used to say, where the first
time they had that, they just felt at peace or
at ease.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And and for me, it was that combined with people
wanting to be around me and and sort of wanting
to share time with.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Me, and and.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I felt like it was caring about me and loving me,
but it's really they just wanted to party with me.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
But that was good with that, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
You know, it's funny, that's not very dissimilar from the
many people I've interviewed who got into gangs at thirteen
and fourteen. It was the same. I thought people were
loving me and everything else. But it's the same thing
seeking having holes in a part of your psyche and
(18:33):
your soul that are filled. They're positively reinforced by negative things.
And it sounds like it's not much different. Alcohol. Was
that for you? Gangs? Maybe that for kids from the
hood whatever, all stemming frankly from childhood trauma.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Really yeah, yeah, yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
And if you I mean imagine that group of kids
I was hanging out with, their stories were probably similar,
and they what brought them together around this thing with
me was probably a similar desire for connection.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And I think, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
You could you could tell a story, you know, about
somebody getting involved in gang life that could sound very
much like somebody seeking safety, and then it turn turns
into something that is much more destructive.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
And that's how my addiction was.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So alcohol was a gateway too, I guess was it
weed first? I mean, yeah, it was pretty mud. I
don't want to generalize your story, but typically it's alcohol, weed,
maybe elude or something, and then ultimately cocaine or heroin.
I mean that is almost the story verbatim I've heard
one hundred times.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, yeah, and it was very similar. You know, I
could I could. I knew where the booze was, I
could steal it. I'd have the cool parties. Then I was,
you know, as my adolescence progressed, I was still struggling
with the mental health stuff and depression and self worth stuff,
and and through getting some mental health support, I met
(20:00):
somebody who sold weed, and and one day I was
buying weed from her and.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I was like, what's that. She's like, hey, it's coke.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
We're going to try a little bit. And I tried it,
same thing as the first beer. I told my buddies.
They're like, no way, you did that. You tried it?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What was it like?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And I was like, I bet I can get some,
you know, And and then you know, I was sort
of it. It turned into a hole a whole sort
of another level. I think like addiction has these like
trap doors that you feel like it's you're you're sort
of on a more normal trajectory. And then you fall
through one of those and it's like a whole another
(20:36):
layer that you dropped into.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
When you were sober and straight, and you look shelf
in the mirror. What were you seeing then?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
You know, like I was when I got into recovery,
I found my way into a boxing gym and and
some guys in Boston. You know, a friend of mine
was a Golden Gloves fighter and she's like, coach y,
I'll teach you about the sport. And I got into
that boxing gym. This is like, you know, at twenty
four now. And as I started to hit the bag
(21:10):
and like learn about the sport and build some technique,
I started to feel this self confidence that I didn't
have before. And then somebody, you know, I had this
opportunity to try climbing for the first time, and and
getting to the top of the climb started to build
that self esteem. And there were some other sober guys
in that boxing gym and I started to build a
little fellowship and it started to just crack open enough
(21:33):
light into this understanding that like how I viewed myself
all these years was was lies right, Like it wasn't.
I did have this innate strength and this innate value
and I could achieve these things. I put my mind
towards and and and then.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I got hungry for that.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I got hungry for that feeling and wanted to keep
chasing that instead instead of the drinking and the drugging.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Do you feel like do you feel like you made
a choice?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I think I made a choice, like I I think
when we talk about addiction, we often talk about like
somebody's got to hit bottom before they change their path.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I don't really see it that way.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I think for a lot of us, hitting bottom might
just be the true bottom, right the end of our life,
or it's over, you know, that kind of thing. I
think that we have these little windows where we have
a moment of perspective on our life.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, mirror, That's what
I'm asking yep.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And it was that it was like you realize that,
like your dreams of who you thought you could be
had been stripped away, sometimes in this very like insidious
way that you didn't realize it was happening. And I
just found some things that started giving me some of
those dreams back, and I wanted to do that stuff more,
and I want to do that more than what I
(22:56):
used to do. And I realized that people around me
actually cared about me in that in this new world,
and that a lot of my buddies from the old
one just wanted to go drink and get high.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I we jumped ahead a little. There's a there's a
part of the story. I think it's important for people
to know before they understand so much about you. That
really makes what you do now incredible is somewhere along
the line in there, before you started the ice climbing,
your mom knew you were in trouble. And I don't
(23:32):
really understand it. I'd like you to kind of tell
me how it worked. But and you ended up mess
around on boats or something. I don't know what. Yeah,
build in the blanks for me on that.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So you know when my mom was I think, trying
to get me out of the environment I was in,
and I.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
She recognized it, she saw you were in trouble.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah, And and she was seeking any opportunity, you know,
and I I I'm dyslexic. I'm horribly dyslexic. And in
those days prior to that, there really weren't a lot
of resources for kids with learning disabilities, and there was
a program for kids with dyslexia, and so we went
and interviewed. It was a boarding school in Massachusetts, and
(24:14):
I went up to interview and they mentioned this boat
program that was like a semester at sea, and I
was like, well, that sounds cool, you know. I was like,
that sounds way better than what I'm doing in Pennsylvania,
you know.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
And and.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
But somewhere in my heart, I think I knew I
knew I had to change. I was afraid of the
path I was on. And my mom and I talked
on the train on the way home, and I decided
to go on this program. And I think it's exactly
what I needed.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
There's something about nature has this like this very clear
cause and effect, and like I would always suld have
shared that. The captain would say, hey, be careful going
forward in the storm, and I'd be like whatever with
my mohawk and my don't tread on me like leather jacket,
you know, and and uh, what you're dealing with?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you had mohaul. Yeah, now it's
now it's more like this way mohawk.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
But yeah, I get it. But it seems from a
breakfast club.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, totally, that was it.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But but then a wave would like crush you on
the deck of the ship and you'd be like, maybe
he's onto something, you know, maybe the captain.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
And captain knows what he's talking about it.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and you started feeling this like sense of community
with your crew, like you had to you had to
work together. And when you when you let somebody down there,
it wasn't just you, like with your self fulfilling prophecy
about your own sort of self worth. It's all this
internal sort of monologue. You you were actually letting down
(25:52):
a team that cared about you and needed you. And
then so you find yourself showing up in a different way.
And and I didn't realize it the time, but the
foundation that I learned on the ship was really the
elements and the principles of what would become the nonprofit later.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
We'll be right back. How do you end up in Boulder?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, so in kind of a roundabout way, Like so
when I got got into recovery, got in the boxing gym,
found this brochure about climbing, and signed up for this
climbing class and really changed my life. You know, by
getting to the top of that climb and then jumped
into that stuff with both feet and eventually was able
to quit drinking and using. And I would just like
(26:52):
wait outside the boxing gym with my gym bag with
a couple other guys that were as dedicated, and the
door would open and we'd go in and stay there
till they'd kick us out, you know. And that became
my early recovery. And between that and going up climbing
in the White Mountains in New Hampshire, you know, I
was just all in on that stuff and at this
point was in recovery.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
And fell in love.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
This is almost a self recovery, Scott. It doesn't sound
like you're you're just finding ways to change your own
life at this point, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm asking,
is that right? No?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That is right, And you know I didn't have the
awareness at the time, but but I was still chasing
that self worth like I had to. I started climbing.
Then I had to climb harder climbs, you know. I
started doing triathlon. Then I had to do Iron Man,
you know, like I had to. Everything had to get
always level up or else I didn't feel like I
(27:51):
was proving to myself that I that I had intrinsic strength.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Actually, I believe you're overcoming voices that were still in
your head from when you were eight years old. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, you you'd cross a finish line at an iron
man and say, man, I should have done better in
the bike.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I could have been faster in the swim.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I was like, like you, just never I never stopped
to celebrate anything I accomplished because I felt like I
still messed it up, you know. And and it was
those that that internal monologue. But but those activities drew
me out to Colorado and ultimately to Boulder, where the
Phoenix was born.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
So I've read or Herd or something something. I thought
it was pretty funny. You, uh, you decided this outdoors
thing was kind of cool, and you decided, Hey, I'm
going to be an outdoorsy guy. And you show up
to like a I don't know, right, some kind of place. Oh, yeah,
(28:57):
I got a place, and and and you say, hey,
I've decided I'm gonna be out doorsy. Why don't you
tell me what I need? Yeah, he's right, And at
the time that's actually sober that day.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
But the guy kind of looked at me and he
was like, I guess you need a dor text jacket,
you know, And actually it was great advice, you know,
that was like probably the best thing to start with.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
And the guys that work at out doorsy place or
kind of granola anyway, so I can kind of see
him looking at you, going, uh a coat.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Coat, yeah, exactly, loves maybe the quit smoking.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Is that what you need? You know, like, but but
a boat a bag for your I don't know, right, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That you know, I was walking out with my new
gore Tex jacket and that's where I saw that it
was actually ice climbing.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Brochure, and really you saw it there.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I saw it there, and I thought, this is the
craziest thing I've ever seen, and for some reason I
wanted to do it. And that was you know, then
I stayed sober Friday night to do a climbing lesson
on Saturday, and and that was you know, I started
like regulating my drinking so I could climb on the weekends.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And that was the beginning of like weaning off of it.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's really kind of interesting, you really were, you know,
you hear a lot of stories about people that quote
go to therapy. You were in your own you're figuring
out your own personal therapy at this point. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, and the power of the outdoors, Like I think
it was probably from those days on the boat. I
knew that, you know, gone into nature and that that
sense of awe that nature can kind of deliver is therapeutic,
you know. And I just started going out there and
that was filling me up in a different way and
(30:57):
slowly started having less nights of the week when I
was drinking.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I can't let this escape me. It's just a thought. Yeah, Well,
the irony that you just told me that when you
were with your dad, the way y'all escape your dad's
house was you went out and ran around in the
trees and jump creeks and played in the trees and
(31:21):
grass and stuff. And the irony of that I think
shouldn't be lost on any of this.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, And actually, sorry, well that's like a that's pretty
profound thing to kind of pick up on, because because
you're right, you know, like when I think.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
About back to my childhood, like the.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Most joyous memories of my childhood are being out in
the woods of my siblings, you know, like playing in
the pond, and it's like even the fond memories I
do have with my dad were, you know, sitting at
a tree line at sunset, watching where the pheasants would
go into roost, you know, because small game season was
(32:02):
coming up, and we were just listening to them, the
sound of them, their wings coming over.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
The top of the hill.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And you know, it was in those little moments where
I actually got to bond with him, and I always
feel like that was really who he was. The other
stuff was just the noise getting in the way of
his from his own story.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah, well, it all ties together, Bud. I mean, it
makes complete sense to me as I'm sitting here listening
to you, and I think it's really sweet that you
say that's who he really was. I mean, even though
he had problems, he chose to live on a farmhouse
out in the middle of the woods, so clearly he
(32:46):
was drawn to the same things that his son was
drawn to ultimately, which is interesting, I.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Think, Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
It just shows that that history, that lineage of pain
isn't really there's no one who's who's responsible for that.
It's at some point we need to forgive everybody in
the chain and start new.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
So brother Scott's deciding I'm going to climb some ice
stuff and boulder with my new gortex jacket a granola
guy gave me, and I've got my ice climbing brochure
in my hand. Yeah, and now I'm in Bolder. Take
us from there.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, and I I mean, I, you know, just to
be honest, right, I jumped right into that just with
the same vigor I was drinking and using with. And
I was like I was after it. I was training
for Ironman. Then I race iron Man. Then I had
to do a twenty four hour mountain bike race. Then
I had to do that race solo. Then I had
to you know, like I just started this, you know,
(33:48):
I was. I did transfer the addiction, but the difference
was inherent, and all of those activities were things that
sort of at a foundation a level, helped me start
to heal. And years later I realized that the real
magic of those activities wasn't the finish line. It was
actually the people I was training with. It was those
(34:11):
relationships that was really the bedrock of my sort of
support network. So those you know, when.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
You're ony of them recovering addicts as well.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Or well, funny you asked, because one was my best
friend and climbing partner, Ben Court. You know, we met
at a climbing gym that he was a manager at,
started talking about climbing and realized we were both in recovery.
Then we started spending our days in Rocky Mountain National
Park climbing together. And then my other friend who I
(34:44):
climbed with was a clinical social worker, so she like
she just started to put the pieces together that you know,
as a social worker, what she realized the magic was
was not necessarily getting that kid that she was supporting
to the appointment he had to go to. It was
the drive there and the time that they got to
(35:05):
talk while they were in that sort of like parallel
activity of just sitting in the car listening to music,
talking about life. That was the most therapeutic part of
that experience.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
And it's the.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Same thing that Ben and I were having in the mountains.
We were tied into a climbing rope, we were climbing,
We weren't really talking about our addiction story, but we
were building new identity and new memories together that started
to eventually push out those old negative feelings.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
What you just said is amazing do you know Bob Zacchio.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
In Bob Zachio, the therapy under a hood, all right,
when you get an extra forty five minutes, go back
to an army in normal folks library. We've only been
out a year, but early was an interview I did
with the kind named Bob Zakio, who is a social
worker therapist and was working specific with kids from the
(36:01):
same background we're talking about in your life right now,
oftentimes doing court ordered therapy, which he found completely useless yep,
and so very frustrated and wanting to make a difference.
One day, he just one of his kids showed up
that he's supposed to work with. It's dealing with addiction
(36:23):
and drugs and alcohol and all kinds of stuff. And
he says, come on, and he took them out in
the parking lot and he taught him how to cast
her reel. I was why. I was just talking to him,
and he found out these kids that don't want to
talk to me, if I take him out of the
office and just interact with them, they open up. Anyway.
(36:47):
Seven years later, he now has therapy at auto mechanic shops.
He has therapy at screen shops, he has therapy, fishing,
he has therapy and all of these things. And he
does the therapy to work that needs to be done
with kids, but he doesn't do it in office. He
does it while they're engaged in something that's interesting. And
(37:10):
the rate of his success of getting kids on the
right track is like twelve times of other social workers.
And anyway, it's a great story. But he said exactly
what you just said, that it wasn't the therapy that mattered.
It was a time to and from therapy and the
actual real lab organic interaction that made the difference. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, And that sound that's very similar to what the
phoenix became is that we just we realize that by
sharing this. I think of it this way, it's like
we would kind of go out climbing and face this
greater adversity together and get back from that safely because
we relied on each other and our own gifts, you know,
in that setting. And then Ben and I would be
(37:56):
closer and supporting each other because we went through that together.
So when I had a tough day in life, I
could turn to him because that vulnerability had already been created.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
And I think that.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
The phoenix was just an idea about how we could
do that at scale.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Scott Strode,
and you don't want to miss Part two that's now available,
as we dive into how Scott turned the idea of
recovery program and community into the movement that it is today. Guys,
together we can change this country, but it starts with you.
(38:37):
I'll see you in Part two.
Host
Bill Courtney
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