Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Generally speaking, whether somebody gives a dollar or a million dollars,
we at least in this area, have created shinier versions
of things.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
That already exist. That's interesting to say that differently.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I think the research would suggest dollars typically go to
the best fundraisers or founders or or or executive directors
of nonprofits that can move people or tell a story,
or are connected versus nonprofits or ministries or whatever that
(00:45):
might have the best approach in processes and resources ever,
but don't have.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
A good storyteller or funds.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in
inner city Memphis. And somehow that last part led to
an oscar for the film about our team. That film's
called Undefeated. I believe our country's problems can never be
(01:24):
solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits
using big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox,
but rather by an army of normal folks, US just
you and me deciding hey, I can help. That's what
justin Miller and Jared Barnett have done. While we normally
tell the stories of Bloody doo gooters their organization, Slingshot
(01:49):
measures the return on investment of those bloody doo gooters
to see how effective they actually are in helping folks
to get out of poverty, provide ideas on how they
could become even more effective and help donors have the
greatest impact. Basically, these guys are bringing a business lens
(02:10):
to philanthropy, which is something that armies should think about
as we go about our work. I cannot wait for
you to meet them. Right after these brief messages from
our general sponsors, Justin Miller and Jared Barnett, Welcome to
(02:40):
an army in normal folks.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Guys, good to see you, Thanks Bill.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Thanks for joining us. So we're going to be talking
about Slingshot, which is what you guys do. And I
was introduced to it by an old friend, John Simms,
who's the CFO of a spin off off of International
paper here in Memphis. And John and I were having
lunch catching up and he told me about this thing, Slingshot,
(03:08):
and I was like, slingshot. First of all, I love
the name, so that's cool. And he told me a
little bit about it, and then I got in touch
with Alex. I said, Alex, let's check these guys out.
This is interesting, and here you are. So shout out
to John Simms for introducing us. Justin Miller, who say Hi,
Justin Miller. Hey, that's Justin Miller's voice. He's the founder.
(03:30):
Jared Barnett say hi, Jared, how's it going there? You
got there's two different voices. You got it? So when
you're listening, the second voice, Jared is the current CEO.
So let's talk about it. Justin. You and I have
an interesting similarity that you're not aware of that I'm
aware of because I read about you and you hadn't
read about me. You ready, I'm ready. When I graduated
(03:50):
from Ole miss I was a teacher and experienced marriage
and four children at seventeen five hundred dollars a year,
no insurance. And I know what having a calling is
and believing and the life you're leading and being broke,
and I think that's how you started. Yeah, that's right,
(04:11):
tell me about it.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So I grew up in Memphis, went off to a
few different schools, studied abroad, finished at the university of
Memphis and had decided. I guess my junior year. I
was working full time while I was finishing my undergrad
and I had studied theology for a bit in Switzerland,
and that's where I decided I wanted to pursue theological education.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
That's what happened. Everybody does that go to Switzerland study theology.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Mountain yodling or something. A lot of that.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
God yodling on the mountaintops, God yodling.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
No, I was God listening, yodling listening. But that ultimately
led me to pursue a degree at Emery Candler School
of Theology. So I have a Master's of Divinity. But
I kind of took a different track. I was mostly
focused on counseling and historical studies. I wanted to be
(05:06):
a teacher and a counselor, which I did at Saint
George's Independent School for about seven years, which.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Is in Carliaville, which suburb of Memphis.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It is.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
However, the reason I was so drawn to Saint George's
model is the time I joined, they were building out
alongside John Simms and his family. They were building out
a middle and upper school which is in Carerville, but
at the same time, they were building a school in
Memphis not too far from Pete and Sam's off Getwell
Kimball Avenue that is serving primarily under resource students.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Pete and Sam's, for everybody listing, is a old school
Italian restaurant that my grandparents stayed out so good, many
many years ago, and that area has, as urban areas do,
over time, seeing financial flight and has become an under
resourced area. And Saint George's built a up elementary school
(06:01):
not only in suburbs, but they also built while they
were building the middle school in the high school, built
an elementary school in an under resourced area with the
grand plan of in a classically educated, pretty expensive private school,
having the kids from the under resourced area, after graduating
(06:22):
sixth grade, joined the kids who were at the other
elementary school and the privileged area. Those two classes joined
in seventh grade and went to middle school and high
school together, a grand social experiment.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
So you were drawing to them.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So it was right in the middle of that and
learned a lot and was humbled a lot and really
enjoyed it. Wore a lot of different hats as an educator,
as I'm sure you did. I was a coach at chaplain, administrator, counselor,
always had a foot in the classroom and loved it.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
And how long did you do that?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Seven years? Yeah, so seven year at that school. But
things changed, things changed. I felt like, you know, I
was to some degree, I sort of have looked at
life in seven year tranches and retrospectively. So seven years
came to this proverbial crossroads where I was either going
(07:20):
to head of school that was the next logical step,
or do something different. So, as Jared knows, I got
the blessing of the headmaster at the time, who's still
a deer mentor, and told him I wanted to spend
a year while working full time, thinking and.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Praying and meeting with people that do other things.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And the short versions I ended up becoming a fixed
income broker with Morgan Keegan.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Okay, so that's weird.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
There's your squirrel.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Well I have a squirrel too. You know. I was
working on my doctorate in psychology, was teaching school, and
the truth is I just could make ends meet and
now in a lumber company, so you know, whatever I mean,
you know, I get it, But that's that's how life goes.
(08:10):
I read that even as you and your wife were
teaching school and building your family and going through life,
you still tithed and you still gave, you did what
you could. So the idea of philanthropy was always part
of your ethos. It just wasn't much because you didn't
(08:32):
have much. Right well, I can remember, you know, sitting
in church the offering plate was not going to pass
me without me putting something in it. But I remember
almost being embarrassed at least and I could put in
the thing back when I was teaching, because we just
had almost nothing. But I get it, I get I
get that right, and so, but that's a long way
(08:55):
from being a broker at Morgan Keegan, because those guys
can make bank.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
You do well, I guess.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
One thing just to insert is one of the things
that was pleasantly surprising to me, at least at the time,
was although the cultures were radically different. I mean, at
the time I was ultimately running the Memphis campus not
far from Pete and Sam's as the chaplain, a religion
(09:21):
teacher administrator, and then the next week I was on
a fixed income trading floor downtown.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Memphis, which at the time was the wildlife last the Boss. Yeah,
they were rolling right.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And so the cultures were radically different, but the recipe
for success was the exact same, which is listening, solving problems,
caring about people, out working everybody.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
The same stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
So on that front, it was really fun to be
challenged in a different way. To your point, my wife
and I, she was a teacher at the time, she
taught for twenty some odd years. We were broke. Happiest claims,
but broke, and we were tithing. Funny enough, little luck,
hard work started making on a relative basis, a lot
(10:08):
more money, and so you know, people started asking for
stuff and we had never been asked for a lot
of stuff because we never had a lot of stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Why I asked, got that's right.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
But and we started, I mean, this is kind of
a segue into slingshot, but we started gladly, you know,
granting request without a lot of forethought. So after about
a year of giving in a different way again maybe
not a different percentage, but it's certainly a different dollar amount,
my wife and I just stopped and were like, wait,
(10:39):
what are we doing? Like, like, are these things things
that are moving the needle.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Do we care about these things?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
And so.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Do I know how to say no?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
And why am I saying yes? Is this about me?
Or is this about our neighbors? And so it really
forced me and her to dig deeper in things, think
more about what is this all about? And how can
we not just maximize our volunteerism in our time, but
how can we maximize capital to do the most good?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
So about what year was this?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
This would have been so.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Two thousand and nine?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Now I'm curious, Jared. Where was Jared in two thousand.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
And nine And two thousand and nine I had just
finished my first year in the business world out of
undergrad So I graduated in two thousand and eight and
had the opportunity to join a consulting firm called Mackensian Company,
completely blessed without opportunity. I didn't have a pedigree, I
(11:49):
didn't have connections. It was, you know, all grit and
grind thing. I just outworked people and tried really hard
and had people help me along the way. But it's
been a year of that, so you know, I joined
two thousand and eight. The market crashes, the economies, it
was an interesting time to be going in the business
world is starting your career, and so I just kind
(12:11):
of finished my first year and it probably took me
nine months to figure out what the heck I was
supposed to do. Anyways, it was I had a long
learning curve, and so that was kind of where I
was at that summer of two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And you two guys didn't know one another existed at
that time, right, not at all. Yeah, So we'll get
to that in a minute. But I wanted to introduce
chronologically where the two of you were in your lives
at this time, so you start thinking about this. And
interestingly enough, I actually needed a lot of mentoring and
(12:49):
counseling and help with the word now. Man. I just
you know, every time Lisa and I were asked for something,
it was I really work tried to figure out how
to say yes, oftentimes when I shouldn't have. And I
wasn't just with my money, but it was with my time.
And the interesting thing about the word yes when you're
(13:10):
asked is if you don't prioritize and you don't use
some some form of evaluation of what you're being asked
to do or what you're being asked for, oftentimes, I
found it can actually be a detrimental effort. One You
(13:33):
can take so much time saying yes to everybody who
wants whatever you have to offer, you end up being
absent from the people who are the most important, which
is that old work life balance thing which I was
terrible at still struggle to keep in between the balance
(13:54):
when I'm better now than I used to be. Lisa
is extraordinary keeping me back there. The other thing is,
you know, it's almost the metaphor to me when I
go to Exon and there is a guy that is
clearly down on his luck standing outside asking for a dollar.
(14:18):
A dollar's nothing to me. A dollar may buy him
a sandwich, or a couple of dollars may buy him
a hot dog and a bottled water inside Exon and
really help him have a better hour of his miserable life.
That two dollars may also buy him part of the
next thing that he's going to inject in his arm
(14:38):
to prolong the agony in his life. And that value
judgment about am I supposed to give this guy two
dollars or am I not? Am I actually enabling him
to do worse for him? Or am I helping him
and my judgment about whether or not I should give
a homeless guy two dollars when he asks for two
dollars is never about the two dollars. It's about am
(15:01):
I doing the right thing or not? Metaphorically, that does
not change when you're asked to give ten thousand dollars away.
Is this organization actually doing a good job with the money?
Are they wasting it? Are they pilfering it, or are
they actually exacting some measure change or are they really
employing it with the best intent and still not being
successful with it? And there's a value judgment that goes
(15:27):
along with philanthropic efforts, and there needs to be. And
I find it interesting when I was hearing about your
story that here you are this theologian, Swiss Smiths, theologian
that's gone through this eight years of maturing and counseling
(15:47):
and teaching and kind of moving up in administration of
school and then changes and gets in a world where
you're actually making money where you can do some good,
and then you start questioning what are we doing? I
think that, frankly, is pretty normal. I think that's what
most people would do. Do you agree with me? Do
(16:09):
you have people that have. I mean, what do you think.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Well, I'll give you my answer now, and then if
you ask me after two bottles of Kanie at Pete
and Sam's, my answer might be more entertaining and maybe
more truthful. I don't think that's the case. You don't,
I don't. I don't. I think generally speaking, whether somebody
gives a dollar or a million dollars, we at least
(16:39):
in this area, have created shinier versions of things that
already exist.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
That's interesting to.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Say that differently. I think we typically and Jared can
speak to this. I think the research would suggest dollars
typically go to the best fundraisers or or executive directors
of nonprofits that can move people or tell a story,
(17:08):
or are connected versus nonprofits or ministries or whatever that
might have the best approach in processes and resources ever,
but don't have.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
A good storyteller or fund direct correct. Oh, that's very interesting.
So were you arriving at that conclusion back your first
year at Morgan Kegan or were you just starting to
question what you were doing then? Well?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I think, you know, I think truth be told. I
wasn't questioning it enough. But as I mentioned, as my
wife and I continue to give and give bigger dollar amounts,
and because more people were asking, our dollars were being
haphazardly given by us, and so I thought a lot
(18:03):
more about it.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
We got a lot.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Better at it as a family, and a lot of
that just had to do with asking different questions of
ourselves and of the people that we were hopefully serving
with our time and our talent. But where I really
changed is I'd actually moved my family down to thirty
a while still being a bond daddy with Morgan Keegan.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
We had just that's hilarious. Yeah, theologic bond daddy. We
hold the Bible study in Morgan Keegan.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
You know what, there were other ones out there. I
thought I was like the only one and I would
use it, you know, hopefully for good. But one time
I was calling on a credit union or a bank
and I was like, I actually have a seminary degree,
and they were like, oh, our broker has a seminary degree.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's like, darn it, that's.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Not gonna say anything. Yeah, for those listening, thirty A
is Dustin area of Florida, the Panhandle of Florida. Yeah,
so you move, So we move.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And I was very fortunate to have amazing colleagues and
support and Morgan Keen and then Raymond James and was
doing extremely well, had an awesome business partner, still dear
friends with him. But I decided to do something different
and would call my mentor who you might know, Tom
Reno here in Memphis.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
He was one of the greatest guys, theorist.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
He is the greatest guy that I know, and Jared
knows him well.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
He's he was my middle school youth director and we
just stayed in touch.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Tom Marino was your middle school youth director. I don't
even think I'm supposed to tell anybody who Tom Reno is,
but I'll say it generically. Tom Marino is a guy
in Memphis who is the I think executive director would
probably be his title of a large, very privately held
philanthropic foundation. His work through the benefactors that he represents
(19:55):
does good all over the Southeast.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Is not a fair representative, very fair represent Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
And I used to think, by the way this sort
of related, I used to think that tom My mentor
who by the way, he's a mentor for many many people.
It was almost like Robin Hood, like what a dream
job and that's just not the case.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
And now a few messages from our gender sponsors. But first,
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about our incredible guests. We'll be right back before we
(20:56):
get into the depths of slingshot. I think some of
the some of the thought behind this, or some of
the impetus is the illustration of Robinhood. Right, it's correct,
you know, why don't you take that? Jared? Tell us
(21:19):
what Robinhood is for those Ironically enough, although a massive Manhattan,
New York thing founded by another Memphian, which speaks to
how much philanthropy there is. Is it true, Jared, that
Memphis per capita is the most philanthropic city in the
(21:40):
United States? Is that? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Depending on the year where one, two, or three it fluctuates.
But we're at the very top of that list in
terms of most giving cities per capital Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
But Memphis is a crappy place, and everybody.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Heard it's a dichotomy unfortunately, Right, And I think we've
got a lot of people in the city who care
deeply and want to see things change, want to help people.
One of the things that drew me to Slingshot is
this idea of, well, all this intent, all this great effort,
it's not working. Why And I feel like sling shots
getting to the kind of one of the reasons that
(22:13):
exist is kind of helping address that.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
But give our listeners the Paul Tutor Jones world.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
Yeah, so Paul Tutor Jones, native Memphian here, went to
New York, made a lot of money, a.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Lot of money or understanding. Does anybody know how much
this guy's worth? Probably it's it starts with a bee.
Oh it's billions, yeah, mini bees.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Right, it's it's a good amount of money. Yeah, And
got together with several other people in New York and saying,
you know, there's challenges here in New York. What do
we do about it? And created a foundation called the
Robin Hood Foundation. And at its simplest, it's trying to
use financial principles to help address social challenges, is the
way I would put it. And you know, I think
(22:56):
of it very much like a private equity fund. If
you know that idea of pulling resources together and then
doing the research to understand which organizations are helping move
the needle in New York and trying to gather those
resources in a collective way that allows it then to
have an impact with that and they'll go do the
(23:16):
research and the work on some of those organizations to
understand it justin you know what, better than I do?
Speaker 3 (23:21):
What would you add about? Well?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
So I taught two of Paul's nephews at Saint George's,
asked to call on him when I was at Morgan Keegan.
He doesn't buy bonds, by.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The way, but I found myself in his office.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
One day with a lot of persistence and anyhow, in through.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
I would imagine if he needs bonds, he does not
need Moran.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
He doesn't need MS or anybody bonds.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
And Hugy Hospital he might be by.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, so he might be by the hospital. Yeah that's rights.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Or the town.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
But through that experience and through a lot of other
connections here, he and his wife and ultimately Robinhood rolled
out the red carpet for us to begin to learn.
You know, you know, Memphis is a very different ecosystem
than New York City and So Slingshot is wildly different,
purposely different than Robinhood, but the idea itself has actually
(24:21):
been emulated across the country. Right, there's Tipping Point in
San Francisco, there is a Better Chicago in Chicago, and
there's a few other models like this. There's nothing else
like Slingshot as far as I'm aware, in the Southeast.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
So now I'm oversimplifying and probably just you know, doing
I'm doing. I'm gonna let you correct this, but my
understanding is that Paul Triter Jones in New York and Slingshot,
I mean in Robinhood brings together a room annually of
(24:58):
all of the wealth theists of the Northeast and basically
hammers them until they give away a lot of money,
kind of like Robin Hood steal them from the rich,
given to the poor. Doesn't really steal, but he drags
money out of people and it ends up being an
enormous amount of money that he then employs a very analytical,
(25:21):
business like approach about how to spread that money around,
very accurate. I've been to have you been to one? Oh?
I hate you. I have always wanted to see what
it looks like to have one billionaire tell a billionaire
has a little less billions. No, dude, you can do better.
I want to hear what I want to see what
(25:41):
that looks like? Is that what it's like.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I'll say this. My wife tends to get starstruck. I
tend not to, but I'll send you pictures. I mean,
I actually went. I was very honored to go with
and sit next to Paul's table, with Paul's dad.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Who unfortunately passed away a few years ago here in Memphis.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
And you know, Michael Bloomberg's to my right and ushers
to my left, and the whole room was full of
people who I knew basketball stars and football stars and
certainly all the people off Wall Street that I've read
their books.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
And Paul tuter Jones is standing up there saying, no,
y'all are going to give. We're going to sit here
until you give what I want you to give.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
They're very good at raising capital.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
That's unbelievable, Yeah it is, and then all of it
is analytically given away and looked at with a financial
awe about where all of that money can do its
best work.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, And I actually want to turn it over to
Jared to say a little bit more about the word all,
because that is one of the things that we absolutely
mirrored from Robinhood.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
I think what's unique is that a lot of times
when you give philanthropic funds to someone, they always take
their expenses out of that and then some portion of
that ends up with the nonprofits or organizations you wanted with.
With Robinhood and with Slingshot, it's a complete one hundred
percent pass through.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
And so that's a big, big point that a lot
of people don't understand. There are some we're not going
to name names or call out foes, okay, but I
know that there are some large, well known to your
point that have really good fundraisers in reach thirty or
forty percent of what they raise covers administration costs and salaries,
(27:30):
and only sixty percent of what they raise ends up
going to the work that they say they're going to
be doing.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
Yeah, And so I think for us, it's a way
that I think I really resonates with me. It's one
of the things that attracted me to Slingshot, is this
idea that we can help the community raise contribute to
something and know that all of that's going to go
to organizations that in our case are making a difference
because we've measured them, we've understood how effective they are,
and so it's a way to ensure that those resources
(27:59):
get to where it's needed without having a bunch of
haircuts along the way that minimize the impact that could have.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And so for me, right.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
Off the bat, that increases the impact of philanthropy because
you can guarantee one hundred percent of what you're giving
goes to what.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, it's a selling point to a donor. Hey, dude,
you don't have to worry about where your money goes.
We're passing it through to the people doing the work.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
And so it's a great way for people. And there's
a lot more to that, but I'll wait to get
that on some of that, but it's a starting point.
It's a great way to know that, Okay, I can
know that my dollar, you, every dollar I give is
going to end up with the organizations that I wanted
to end up with and not end up in a
bunch of middle people's pockets along the way, and only
a fraction of that goes to the people that I'm
(28:43):
and the organizations I'm hoping it gets to.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
It's almost like every organization and bureaucracy. Over time, they
tend to get top heavy, and even in large philanthropic organizations,
if they get top heavy, somebody's got to pay for
all that. And that's ultimately what can happen if it's
not looked after properly. And it's a it's an unfortunate reality,
(29:06):
but that happens in a lot of philanthropic organizations. It does.
So Robinhood doesn't play that. And as a result, because
they were kind of the inspiration behind some of the
things you wanted to do, Slingshot doesn't play that.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Okay, So you and your wife aren't hanging out with Usher,
you've got the bal tuder Jones, no on the bonds,
but you can come watch me raise money. And you
come back to Memphis, and you've got these ideas, You've
got this et thos, you've got this reality of making
money and giving more but not really knowing what you're doing,
(29:44):
and so this thing's foreman for you. That's right? Is
that about right?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's that's very right.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And so it was you know, maybe sixty percent baked,
which was enough for my wife and I to move
back to Memphis, you know, and i'd been working and
talking with Tom Marino again about like, well, I don't
know exactly what I want to do, but I had
this vision since starting at Morgan Keegan that man, what
if somebody would have showed up at our doorstep and said, look, justin.
(30:11):
I know you're building a book of business and you're
traveling in the country g and I know you're working
full time raising two kids. I'm going to sit down,
no commissions and actually be your philanthropic broker. You tell
me what you're trying to accomplish, I'm going to go
help you do it. I always thought how cool would
that be? And I thought if I needed that, I
(30:31):
bet a lot of other people need that too. So
I created that, And so I started working with individuals, family,
some foundations, but mostly individuals, asking them those questions, what
are you trying to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
With your giving? Is it going well? What's working? What's
not working?
Speaker 3 (30:50):
And where's your heart?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Where's your heart?
Speaker 3 (30:51):
And support that's right?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
What do you care about?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
And I had this, for lack of better words, this
little portfolio of good causes in Memphis, you know, whether
it was a food pantry or a women's shelter, and
after school program, knowing that people are drawn to different
needs in a good way, and so I had this
business model. I started raising a meaningful amount of capital,
(31:16):
which was really fun for me. I found a lot
of join in it, hopefully for these donors, but certainly
for these nonprofits locally that needed it. What I didn't anticipate,
which was part of my business model, was that I
was going to raise the capital and earmarket towards these portfolio,
these causes that people care about, and then I was
(31:38):
going to report back to the donors how their dollars,
how their capital was making a difference or not they
deserve it. And I thought that transparency would just be
really powerful to do even more good. But I found
that it just wasn't there. And that's not a judgment
on the nonprofits. They didn't have the tools, the bandwidth,
(31:59):
and quite frankly, we're never even asked for ROI.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
It's interesting you are, actually you are absolutely combining your
two skill sets, your skill set of teaching and mentoring
and counseling and theology and your belief in tithing and
giving back. Your first seven years your world sound like eight,
but seven is close enough. Well, you seven because you
(32:24):
said seven with Now you've got this skill set that
you've learned as a broker, flying over the place talking
about selling bonds and all of that, which is all
about ROI. And interestingly enough, these two worlds are colliding
and you're combining the two. Yeah, that's really cool. We'll
(32:50):
be right back the film throp of organizations. They were
taking the money and using it dutifully as they described,
(33:16):
and they were doing the work, but they had no data,
They had no measurable so you couldn't go back to
the donor and say your one hundred thousand dollars created this.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
And I guess what I would say is they had
data and numbers based on what donors have asked them
to provide historically, which is generally speaking, the wrong information.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
And so one example, and.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Again Jared can articulate this way better than I can.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
If you if you typically go to.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
A donor or a foundation or even a church, faith
based community and ask, you know, let me see your
your your grant application. Right, you know, one of the
first questions that we ask, not just in Memphis but
abroad is how many people do you serve? That's that
(34:11):
can be an important question, but out of context it's
real dangerous. The real question is how many people do
you serve?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Well?
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Right, so, if I'm a church and I'm going to
go to a shelter, and the shelter is whether it's
conscious or subconscious knows that they are going to raise
capital to do important things for people based on how
many people they serve. Almost always they're going to serve
a lot more people, and the ROI actually might plummet
(34:40):
because they're not equipped to serve a thousand people versus
really changing the lives of one hundred.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
So you're saying, yeah, we do you want to serve people,
We're gonna serve people. So they're gonna open the shelter
and they're gonna they're gonna touch a thousand people over
some standard set of time. But they do nothing but
provide just the basic necessities. Where if and they changed
nobody's life, But where if they if they looked at
(35:11):
the return on the investment in a different way, and
we're more analytical about it, maybe they only touched two
hundred and fifty people, But what if those two hundred
and fifty people are no longer homeless and find jobs.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
That's a great Yeah, that's a great example. Actually, Jared,
you probably know this. Do you remember some of the
stats on literacy That was always something that really resonated
with me of how many touches in time somebody needs
to really turn the corder.
Speaker 5 (35:37):
I'll be honest, I'll recall it off top of my head,
but I think give me one.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
You do know.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
The concept I think around this though, is that historically
we measure what's easy to measure in the nonprofit space.
How many people you serve, how cost effective are you,
how many people graduate your program? All those things. You
can measure those things, and funders like to ask that
stuff because they want data. But none of those things
will tell you how did you change the life of
the person that you're working with? And you know, you
(36:04):
could work with a thousand people and none of them
could get out of poverty.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
You're still working with a thousand people, but you probably
are making their life incrementally better, hopefully on a very
superficial level. But are you changing their laws? Right?
Speaker 5 (36:19):
And the challenge is I think that just nobody has
known and nobody has gone to the effort to try
and understand, well, how much is changing and how are
these people's lives changing, and so with something like literacy
or the other things, it's a consistency. It's a depth
of service, right that I think is really important. And
one of the analogies I like to use as a
(36:40):
physical trainer. Right. So if I'm working with a physical
trainer and he has five clients or she has five clients,
and that's all they have, and they're do this full time, well,
I get a full day a week of their attention
on average right to help me. I get customized meal
plans and workout plans and all of these types of
things that are really going to help me personally.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
I get better.
Speaker 5 (37:00):
But if that same personal trainer starts working with one
hundred people by themselves without changing anything else, the fraction
of time I get from them is so much smaller.
I don't get those customized meal plans anymore. I get
a couple of templates to choose from. Right, I might
get fifteen minutes a week with them at best helping me.
And you're going to think, well, which of those is
going to produce better outcomes? One where I'm getting personalized,
(37:23):
customized depth of support, or one where I become a
widget and a machine and.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Same trainer, same skill self, same amount of hours put
in by the trainer, same effort, right, and what is
his or her actual effect? Exactly right?
Speaker 5 (37:38):
And at some point, if I'm not getting healthier, if
I'm not beating my health goals, I'm not going to
work with that personal trainer anymore. Because I can measure
my own self. I can measure my waist unfortunately. Right,
I can look at some of these measurables that help
me understand am I getting healthier?
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Am I not?
Speaker 5 (37:53):
And you know, justin alluded to this second ago, right,
if serving more people oftentimes iss deutch mental because if
you're serving more people without the commiserate resources, without the
commiserate depth of services that you could provide when you
are smaller, you're basically just giving people, you know, a
piece of bread to get by instead of helping transform
(38:14):
their lives so they're out of poverty. And so my
ethos around poverty fighting is always it's better to serve
fewer people more effectively than it is to serve a
lot of people poorly. And again that doesn't go with intent.
I think the intent can be there regardless of how
many people you are serving, But to help people out
of poverty. You've got to help them out of poverty.
(38:35):
And that's hard, that's challenging. That requireds working with people,
not manufacturing, which is my background is in you know,
manufacturing efficiencies, operational changes and change management. So I want
to do things really well, but I've realized that with people,
you have to be nimble, you have to be flexible,
you have to do the things just and talk to it.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
You got to listen.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
You've got to understand everybody's different. The reasons people are
experiencing poverty are very red. There's so many factors that
contribute to that. And if you take a cookie cutter
approach to it, you're not going to help people transform
their lives in a way where they're now thriving and
able to help their family, their children also be able
to thrive, and you just create this generational poverty of
(39:15):
people being stuck without economical mobility and without opportunities to a.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Nutshell, Slingshot provides philanthropic organizations and endeavors with a way
to evaluate there ROI to help them better focus on
how to do what they're trying to do well rather
than just in volume.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
I think that I mean that definition makes sense to me.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Well, we're going to get to how.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah, but I think it's really important for something like
Slingshot to take root in this community. It is absolutely
for these nonprofits to understand where they're having the biggest impact,
where they can double down and in some cases, is
my former pastor, doctor Dunham would say, in some cases,
(40:10):
really good ministries sometimes need really good funerals.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Now that might not.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Be non Maxie Dunnet. That's a great secon Yeah, really
really good stuff sometimes needs to just be buried.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
That's right for the sake of our coming neighbors.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Things change, right, seasons, common seasons go, and in some
cases that could be an organization, But in some cases
it could be a small thing that an organization does,
and they might pivot to the thing that has or
the things that have the biggest return.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
And so you're helping them with their measurables and all
of that. How is interesting? Want to get that. But
before we segue to that, you have a relationship with
a former guest of ours the FA Center City Rugby too.
That dude's hairs on fire and he literally looks like
a big old long red main and the work these
(41:06):
guys show up for Teach for America and they've got
a little rugby background and they're just going to be
bloody do gooders and get involved and teach a bunch
of inner city kids how to throw it and kick
a rugby ball around, and well and behold, they end
up with an entire thing. And they moved hard and
fast and used their money and their time and their effort.
(41:28):
And I will tell you something. If those listening haven't
heard our podcast on Memphis Inner City Rugby, go back
and listen to it because it's awesome, it's funny, and
it is inspiring. But was it effective and you guys
got involved with them? I think they're a great case
(41:49):
study because many of our listeners have heard of their organization.
So as it pertains to what we're talking about, let's
talk about Memphis Inner City Rugby as an example, justin
do you want to start?
Speaker 5 (42:02):
You have the genesis story with them that I I
came after the fact and have income.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, I'll give you that sort of the short opening,
and that is came across Shane. I can't remember how
how we were connected, but he showed some serious interest
in needing some support to evaluate what they were doing.
And so I had a couple of colleagues at the
time go to I can't recall the school he was teeth.
Speaker 6 (42:30):
Maybe helpful to set back a little bit. I listen
to some of your interviews, how people were brave early on. Yeah,
maybe kind of give some of that contexts and they
can get to Shane and people really.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Be willing their books. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Actually, I'm glad you said that. And this is probably
not the most diplomatic way to say it. And this
is one of them place on this good we y'all
can edit this out.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
No, we will, it won't be Alex never edits out
when he butts in on these interviews because he likes
to air his voice. Well, Cash see won't shut up. Yeah,
go ahead, Well you.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Talked about I'll say something that I'll answer. It's a
great point.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
So the definition you gave a minute ago, or the
description of us helping Slingshot working alongside nonprofits to measure
stuff better. Absolutely, However, it is equally and in some
cases more important to help donors, whether it's government, churches,
(43:34):
family foundations, individuals, corporations understand what is or is not
working so they can get better at what they do,
and that is provide capital. Both things are really really important.
And this is back to your great question, Alex. I
assumed early on in Slingshot that the nonprofits, generally speaking,
(43:59):
would have the most aversion to this. Right, they are
spending their their lives fighting for our neighbors in various ways.
Who you know, who is justin to come in with
all these PhDs to ask.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
A bunch of questions if something is not working.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
It feels so little judge, does it?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
It felt judge?
Speaker 1 (44:18):
However, people like Shane and Memphis Inner City Rugby, it
was the exact opposite. Generally speaking, nonprofits want to know
if what they're doing is making a difference, Where can
they stop doing stuff and double down on things?
Speaker 2 (44:32):
That was so.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Exciting for me and Shane's a great example. Donors, however,
generally speaking, have the most aversion to it.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Now, that's interesting. They don't Why wouldn't they want to
Why wouldn't they want to know?
Speaker 1 (44:46):
People often, and I put myself in this camp in
various ways, we often don't want to know that what
we have been doing for a long time hasn't had
the effect.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
Because we look stupid.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Maybe maybe I think there's a variety of reasons.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
We'll be right back. I don't want to tell you
something real quick. I sell lumber. That's what my company does.
We sell lumber over the world. There is a market.
You guys will know this. There's a market for a product. Yep. Okay.
(45:27):
You can buy a Ford pickup truck at about seventeen
thousand different places in the United States, and you can,
in fact get a little better price at one dealership
then you can the other, which dealerships are ready to
discount a little more. But there is a small about
six percent range in what you would pay on the
high end versus low end on a new forward, because
there's only so much more up in. Can we agree
(45:49):
on that as long as you're buying the exact same
market numbers the same way. There's a market, all right.
If you're selling four quarter fas red oak, which is
top grade to red oak into phoenix, all right. Someone
may have bought their their inbound lumber at a little
(46:10):
cheaper price, and someone may have a more efficient way
of making it. But in general, what the raw cost
of the stumpage, the log, the tree, the timberland is
and what it costs to produce that into usable kill
drive lumber to go into flooring is really within a
range of about four or five percent, okay, And the
(46:33):
ones who do it really well can lower that price
and garner more business than the ones who are a
little lazy maybe have a higher price and oak get
as much business. But it's about a five percent range.
So what happens when you go quote ABC Flooring Company
and they tell you that your nearest competitor up the
road is beating your price seventeen percent? Now, how is
(46:55):
that possible? Because I know that there's only a five
percent range to the difference of products going to market.
I know that my freight to Phoenix is no different
than my competitor's freight to Phoenix. Now, how in the world.
So there's one or two things happening, the customer's line
or your competitor's line. So then you go to your
(47:15):
customer like, man, I just don't understand how, and you
have to walk that fine line because you don't want
to insult your customer. And then the customer says, you
know what, I'll prove it to you, and he pulls
out the invoice from your competitor and puts it on
desk low and behold, the invoice is seventeen percent lower
in your price. Eye is that there's only one way
the grade on that lumber or the tally on that
(47:36):
lumber has been shorted, has been cheated. There's no way
that that lumber can be seventeen percent lower. I can
believe four or five, maybe in a crazy world six,
but not seventeen. So now you're faced as a sales
guy and your customer with this. Do you go out
(47:57):
to that pack of lumber in your customers warehouse, open
it up and show the customer that for the last
six years they've been getting screwed on grade or on tally.
Do you do that? Or do you back off and say, well,
I'm just getting beat. So I've gone at it both ways,
(48:18):
and every way both times I lose. If I say
I'm getting beat, I walk off. I don't get the business.
If I go out there and I tell the guy
what's going on, he won't buy for my competitor anymore.
But nine times out of ten he won't buy from
me because I'm the dude that embarrassed him. I'm the
dude that pointed out that he didn't know what he
was doing well for the last five or ten years.
(48:41):
I just came up with that that scenario happens, And
in thirty years in business, I've been faced with that
a number of times. It's phenomenal how much it happens.
But the point is that metaphor. I would you know
when you said what you said. If you go to
a foundation who prides himself on what they give away
and their professionalism and all of what they do, and
(49:03):
you point out to them that what they've been giving
to is not working and they're wasting their money, I
bet they do recoil from that a little bit. And
I've got to believe that in some small part ego
and embarrassment plays a role in that. Now, that may
not be the most diplomatic of things to say, but
(49:24):
I've got just human nature says that happens.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, what I would say, And I think that metaphor
is a powerful one. Slingshots. One of slingshots primary solutions
to this problem as it relates to the fight against
poverty locally, is to make it all transparent.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
To make it all public domain.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Not unlike Saint Jude in their research and Alex, you
asked a great question earlier about Shane and some of
these early adopters nonprofits that were willing to be totally
transparent about what they were trying to accomplish and whether
it was making it difference or not. So the quick
story before I turn it back over to Jared is
we show up at Shane's classroom. That's the only time
(50:08):
he had to meet between periods in his classroom in
South Memphis, and at the time, it was him and
one other person, and we asked him some naive question
in hindsight, you know, where do you keep your data?
And he turned and he was excited about he had
written things on his trouble in.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
The classroom that was his data system.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
And we knew immediately and I'm sure your listeners who
heard him something about him and what he was trying
to accomplish and his willingness to be radically transparent with
what was happening, what he was trying to make happen
alongside these awesome student athletes and their families. And I'll
turn it over to Jared to talk more about that
(50:50):
particular partnership.
Speaker 5 (50:51):
You know, it's one of those things where great intent,
ton of effort, you know, the idea was like, hey,
I'm a teacher, I've got time after school. I can
help these youth like you're talking about, and we help
them realize, well, what you're doing with the after school programming,
it's a little bit of value. It's not worthless, but
it's not really transformative for a lot of these youth.
(51:12):
But Shane and his co founder it started to do
some other things. They started thinking about, well, some of
these kids need help completing their fast Fund financial aid applications,
some need help actually applying to colleges. They had a
couple alumni eventually that started going to college, and many
of them were first time college attendees in their families
and didn't have anyone to talk to about how do
you handle this?
Speaker 3 (51:31):
How do you handle that?
Speaker 5 (51:32):
So they started providing some support for those, you know,
their alumni of their program that are now in college
of that and as we work with them, we realized, well,
that's the transformative piece of what you're doing, Shane. Is
this idea that you know that the after school programming,
it's going and playing rugby. It's not worthless, but it's
not transformative. It's these things you're doing that are really
(51:54):
helping people get to and persist in college that is
really going to change the lives of the student athletes
working with and so over the years, it's been exciting
to see how Shane has taken the research and analysis
we're able to do and really build an organization that
I've heard him say this in his own words that
rugby is just the medium now that they use. They're
(52:15):
really a college feeder program for a lot of these
youth and so it's exciting to see how they've been
able to create this pipeline to numerous colleges across the country,
most of them have rugby programs that allow these youth
to continue playing something they love, which is rugby, but
also to get scholarships to do that, to get a
(52:36):
college education. To do that. Many of them have gone
on and played professional rugby in Europe and other places.
And I think what's been neat is be able to
kind of see how what Slingshot does, which is not
a direct service provider, right we do the analysis, the research,
but can partner with someone who has that appetite of
wanting to do what's most effective and create something that
(52:56):
becomes so much more transformational for the people that they
work with. So you know, I'm a numbers guy, I'm
a data nerd. So I'm happy to admit that when
you look at some of the numbers, you've been able
to see that their benefit cost ratio has increased seventy
percent since twenty nineteen between twenty nine play moving. So
what that means is that in twenty nineteen they created
(53:18):
a dollar and forty cents of benefit for every dollar
they spend. So you know, that was one point four
times return on investment if you think about it in
that way. So they're able to take a dollar and
turn it into a dollar and forty cents for those
youth they serve. That's now up to two dollars and
forty cents for every dollar they spend. So they've been able,
with a conscious effort to be able to increase the
(53:39):
benefits that they're providing to those youth, those poverty fighting
benefits in a massive way. And so you know a
few examples of that. A little more specific is that
their financial aid benefits have doubled now that they provide
for these youths, some of that through providing their own scholarships,
because they've gone out in fundraise for that some of
that is by being more structured and how they help
(54:01):
their student athletes supply for financial aid or for college scholarships.
But they've been basically able to say, you know, for instance,
we provided you know, one hundred dollars worth of financial
aid benefits back in twenty nineteen, we're now providing two
hundred dollars benefits over that time for they've been able
to double that. And then in terms of their wrap
(54:22):
around support for the students that graduate from high school
here that are micr athletes that go to college, that
wrap around support they provide once they're in college is
increased by six times. So they've been able to kind
of take, you know, something that was again one hundred
dollars of benefits using just simple numbers, and turn that
into six hundred dollars of benefits because they've realized that's
(54:44):
really something that's transformative in the lives of the student
athletes they're working with. And so it's able to take
this and not phenomenal intent and energy that I wish
I could bottle from someone like Shane to go and
do good and help funnel it in the ways that
are creating the greatest benefits for those student athletes. So
instead of just graduating high school and saying I played
(55:06):
rugby for a couple of years it was fun, it's
now I played rugby for a couple of years. I
now got to go play rugby in college. I now
I'm on scholarship at college. So my college is paid
for and I have this wrap around mentor who's helping
me navigate what college is like, who I've known for
years now because they were connected with my rugby program
(55:27):
back when I was in middle school or high school,
and have an opportunity out of complete college, have a degree,
or intentionally go and pursue a rugby career if they're
good enough, but if not, I at least am now
equipped to go and be in a entirely different place
than Unfortunately, most of the students who graduate from high
(55:48):
school here in Memphis that often are not ending up
in anything. They don't go to college, and they don't
enter the workforce. We have one of the highest rates
of youth that are disconnected from both those educational works
in the country and Memphis. Unfortunately, and since Ropey now
is a phenomenal way of overcoming that. But it took
the energy and passion that Shane had with understanding of
(56:11):
what's providing the greatest benefits, what's most effective to now
do something that I would say is transformational and incredibly
exciting for our city.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Jared, do you do you know Just Ballpark what their
annual budget is?
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Ask the questions. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Go ahead, Yeah, so.
Speaker 5 (56:34):
Just Ballpark Ballpark, give or take, it's a million dollars bucks.
Speaker 4 (56:38):
So it's Jared does a great job of explaining it on.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
A dollar to a dollar basis.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
But if you think about that on a million dollars
and back to your earlier point, Bill about Memphis being
extremely philanthropic and however you dize it, we are, relatively speaking,
a very giving, very generous city, but we have huge
challenges and relative to the challenges, we have very limited resources.
(57:03):
Hence slingshots potential solution to.
Speaker 3 (57:06):
Help with that. And that concludes Part one of my
conversation with Justin Miller and Jared Barnett, and you do
not want to miss part two that's now available to
listen to. Together, guys, we can change this country, but
it starts with you. I'll see in part two