May 6, 2025 • 37 mins
For our special series “Supporting Greatness”, where we typically interview those who’ve achieved public greatness about their own Army of Normal Folks that supported them, this time we interviewed award-winning sportswriter Michael Arkush. He's written books with Scottie Pippen and Sugar Ray Leonard, about the top 100 golfers in history, and he celebrates each of their Army of Normal Folks that supported them.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army and normal folks.
And we continue now a part two of our conversation
with Michael Harkush. Right after these brief messages from our
general sponsors, you went into a rabbit hole for three years,
(00:30):
and you were afraid that Paul Otto is going to
put out a missing person report because nobody saw you
correct and you developed this thing, and then you go
all over the world talking to these people or their families.
How did you make I I'm Michael, I'm writing a book.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Because well, a number of I knew, so I alad
had their numbers and all that, and then I got
led to other players that wasn't But it was great
catching up with them because because part of the book
also was I want part of the whole idea of it.
I wanted to find out these players now in their
seventies and eighties, how they viewed their lives now versus
when they were in the heat of competition. Did the
losses matter to them as much anymore? And I don't
(01:14):
want to get too morbid about it, but that my
whole concept was, with the biggest loss of all to come,
how did they view their lives, and I guess personally,
I'm getting older. That also was part of my thinking.
I wanted to kind of figure out where did the
sport fit in my life, and so I was trying
to have those conversations with them. It didn't really work
(01:35):
a lot of times, but I felt at different moments
that I'd hear a pause, something in their voice, an
effect that made it sound like they understood. They didn't
care about those losses as much anymore. They saw the
perspective of.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
All of it. That is so interesting. Okay, So for
those of you with fathers, when father's days coming up,
I'm telling you you're crazy not to buy this book
form and you don't even have to be a golfer,
because it's also as i've read through, i haven't read
the whole thing yet, but I've read half of the chapters.
(02:09):
As i've read through it, it's such an interesting history
lesson because we're not we're not just talking about golfers
what they did on golf course. So much of it
is what they did off of the golf course, about
their life that is vastly interesting that we're exposed to
the first one that I think is interesting in supporting greatness.
(02:32):
Ken Venturi obviously an amazing golfer, but might be known
by you know people my age and younger. Is is
kind of the voice of golf on TV. Yes, you know,
on the Masters, you always went to Kenventurie, you know,
I mean, I remember his voice. Oddly. He came close
(02:54):
to winning the Masters in fifty six, fifty eight, and
sixty and by sixty three as game fell apart and
there was a really normal person who changed his life
for him.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, let me just tell you a little more about
the background. In fifty six he had a four shot
lead entering the final round. He was an amateur, okay,
He shot an eighty on the final day to lose
six blew up totally. In fifty eight he lost to
Arnold Palmer. It's a whole other controversy because of a
ruling in nineteen sixty Arnold Palmer Birdie the last two
holes to beat him at the Masters by a shot.
(03:28):
So here he is. He's in a period of five years,
three times he could have won the Masters, still won
a bunch of other tournaments. Sixty three, as Bill said,
his game fell apart sixty and he turned to alcohol.
You know, he's just so down on himself. Everybody thought
he was going to be the next Ben Hogan and
it didn't turn didn't turn out that way at all.
(03:49):
So he went into a bar in San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Hold it, I want to read something he wrote. I
was a washed up loser. Now this is a guy
who d I'm near run of the masters three times,
top of his game in his mind. I was a
washed up loser, he wrote in his own memoir, closer
to selling cars my former lot of work, than to
winning them. My swing had vanished, along with my confidence.
(04:15):
I turned alcohol.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Those are his work, Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And he
went into this bar I'm just downtown San Francisco, and
he saw a guy named Dave Marcelli who had played
football at the University of San Francisco, and Dave spoke
to him honestly, he basically told him, you're wasting your career.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
You're wasting Dave a bartender.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, he's a bartender. I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
This is the normal guy. Yeah, the bartender.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, the bartender who basically said to him that he
was wasting his life. And Ken just thanked him and
had one last jack. Daniels just sort of okay, one
for the road right, made a promise, I give you
my word, I will not have another drink until I
win again. The next day's practicing. A few months later,
he's playing some tournaments, doesn't do well, finally comes up
(04:59):
with the a couple decent finishes, and that brings us
to the nineteen sixty four US Open, a congressional outside
DC where Ken Ventori won the US Open in near
one hundred degree temperatures after the doctor had told him.
Back then they used to play the US Open final
round thirty six holes in one day on a Saturday.
The doctor had told him after the first eighteen do
(05:21):
not go back out there. It could be fatal, and
Ken did not care because what he had been living
through was worse than that. He wound up winning the
Open and that entirely changed his life.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
And he became the Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
But then two years later at Carpal Tunnel syndrome and
his career was over.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That was it. But the point is he would have
never reached the pinnacle of his career if it wasn't
for a bartender named Dave Marcella who talked him out
of drinking and turned his life fro him. He wouldn't
have been on the TV had he not done all this,
his life was done.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, just a bartender in Servicesco on Gary Street and
services go yep.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
If you do not think the power of an army
of normal folks is very real, and you do not
think that opportunity exists around you every single day, you
cannot hear that story and not understand that Dave Marcelo,
or former football player at the University of Francisco, serving
Jack Daniels to Ken Venturiye, challenging Kim not to waste
(06:25):
his talent, and the man's life change.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And that's another thing. Is you know that we talk
about the supporting great is it doesn't just happen at
the initial stage. It also happens so profoundly at another point,
another turning point. Really it becomes later on. You could
have that initial part of success, but when you falter,
who are those people to pick you up in the
middle of your journey a guy like that, Because Ken
(06:50):
had success before that, we have to remember that can
happen throughout one's life.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
All right, three pack a female golf.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And let me tell you one thing, really important is
why female golfers are in this book. I could have
I thought about another list, but I felt like women
are marginalized enough in life. In sports, they have to
form the fabric of the greatest golfers of all time,
so I made sure they were in there.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I think I read, I think i'd actually read in
this book. I know I read it last night. It
was late, it was midnight. But I think you credit
the most beautiful swing and the history of golf to
a female.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Correct. Mickey Wright absolutely that.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Her swing, yes, was more beautiful than any swing ever
to Waltimas.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And Ben Hogan even said so, yes.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Who supported her greatness?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, so many people supported her greatness. But I'll refer
to something in here about her father really was the
one her father pushed her. Some people feel her father
pushed her too hard, that he maybe should have let
go of but not done that. And you know a
lot of people say that about Well, that's an important
point I think about supporting greatness is that it may
(08:04):
seem like too much at a certain point. It means
too pushy, too demanding. To get to that, I mean
a lot of people say that about Earl Woods, Tiger's
father that he was too hard. But you know a
lot of times, that's what it takes to be able
to get to greatness. It's it's not easy, right, It's
not something that comes automatically. You need that push.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah. I think I'd say about my four kids, they
may be good and they may be bad, but none
of them are going to be wallflowers. No, we're going
to work.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah. Yeah, and so what In her early teens, her
father basically got her out of bed to make sure
she ran up and down the stairs of their fifteen
story apartment building about one hundred miles from soul I
wanted to teach her that to win in golf, her
father said, she first had to win the battle within herself.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I mean, that's it, is it? That's amazing, Yeah, that's it.
And she credits much of her success to those lessons.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, And she's important because she on a global level,
had such an impact on the game. Look at all
the South Koreans and Asians playing golf right now, So
much of that because of her.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
She's all because her dad pushedra.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, Alex and I have had a revelation these last
six months where we really started talking about the fact
that you can have profound impact and be a member
of the army of normal folks and your greatest work
may be down the hallway of your home, right, And
(09:39):
this speaks.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
To that absolutely, absolutely, because.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
What's the point in going out and doing anything good
in the community and society if you're not taking care
of what's under your roof? First?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Carrie Web, Carrie Web.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Tell the story of Calvin Haller. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Kelvin Haller is a greenskeeper at the club in Australia
where she grew up, and basically when she was a
little girl, she got to know him and he taught
her so important I don't want to bore you with
the details of the game so much, but really taught
her the importance of practice and swinging and all that.
And then he had an accident and he became a paraplegic.
And yet over the years he kept instructing her. He
(10:21):
would receive these videos from Carrie's caddy that he would
get and be able to kind of just buy the
videos and even I think sometimes talking to the caddy
on the phone describing exactly what Karrie needed to work
on her game. And he wound up passing away, which
taught Carrie another early lesson about the fragility of life rights.
Never that lesson can't be taught enough. But he was
(10:42):
hugely instrumental in her career, and she's one of the
great players.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Did you speak to her? Oh yeah, yeah, did you
so she told you the story? Oh?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah. What was it like her delivery on that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Again, it was that voice, that reverence, that that appreciation.
It's there's transplanted right away back to that moment of
that relationship. And I heard it everything every time we
talked about him.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, Johnny Miller, Now, Johnny Miller was one of the greats.
And there's there's an homage he pays too. I think
his father.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, No, his father meant everything to him. His father
was a Morse code specialist in World War Two, worked
the night shift as a supervisor for RCA in the
Bay Area, and for two and a half years he
had his son hit ball after ball by a mirror
in the garage, copying the swings of Hogan Staden Nelson
because his father had bought those instruction books from those
(11:47):
players filled with pictures. Before he even took Johnny.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
To the Governors. He played golf of the garage, wherever
he went, saw.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Just basically just practiced the swing in the garage. And
the line is the amount of time my father devoted
was incredible. So basically his father, the US Open mean everything.
So when Johnny Miller won the US Open in nineteen
seventy three, he was the happiest thing about it for
him was that he had done it for his father.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
We'll be right back Ray Floyd. Now, Ray Floyd was
one of my favorite golfers growing up. Anyways, I think
he was sponsored by Yellow Pages. Okay, is that not right?
(12:34):
I don't know. I think at one time he was
sponsored by the Yellow Page. But Ray Floyd always played
in the Memphis Start.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
You're gonna have to tell people what yellow Pages are.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, I know. Well, if you're too old to know that,
ask your mom or dad or grandparent. But I would
always sneak onto the course because I didn't have money
for tickets. There was a hole on the sixteenth green
in the fence you could literally fall under.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
You're the guy, Yeah, I am that guy.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
That's exactly where. And I would follow Trevino or rayf
Lloyd or believe it or not, a guy named Andy Bean.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, No, I spoke to Ady Being a number of times.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yes, no, kid. Well, the reason I liked Andy Bean
is because he looked like a football player.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
He was a large, large man. But anyway, tell me
about Ray Floyd. Ray Floyd was a playboy. He did
not really fulfill his potential. That's another thing I found
out in this book. There are a lot of players
here who, as great as they were, should have been better.
And he, I think, really messed up a lot of
his early career. But then he met Maria, wound up
marrying her, and he's had a tournament in the early
(13:38):
seventies and basically he looks like he's not going to
make the cut. He runs into this front of his
Bob Rosberg, another player, former PGA champion, and Rosberg says, hey,
let's go, let's go to the racetrack. You're not going
to make Ray figured why not? So Ray quit the
tournament right there, decided he wasn't going to play the
rest of the rest of the I think he just
(14:00):
played twenty seven holes and he realized he wasn't going
to shoot well the next nine holes to make the cut,
went back to the hotel and told Maria, let's go back.
We're getting out here. She is, I'm not going anywhere.
This is your life, this is your career. You're not
walking out him this. You're not walking to go to
the racetrack. I'm not going. And she made him realize
so importantly that he can't just throw away his talent.
That you know, talent's a gift, but what does it
(14:24):
mean if you don't exercise it? What does it mean
if you don't practice? And he learned that lesson from her.
That's one conversation. Years later, he's at the He's in
nineteen eighty six and June of eighty six, he had
just blown up a chance to win a tournament in
New York State, west Chester Classic, and they're in the
car and she starts telling him, why did you screw up? On?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
All these things happened, and she engaged him, got into
that whole conversation. He basically stopped the car on the
Long Island Expressway and was said, either you get out
or I get out right, and he wound up. Nobody
got out, The kids are crying in the backseat. Went
on and he went to win the US Open a
few days later because of her persistence at forty three
years old.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, one of the excerpts is she said to him,
you've got a long life ahead of you. If golf
isn't what you want to do for a living, now's
the time to get out and think about doing something else.
You're not giving it your best. This is the best line,
she said. You're not being fair to me, right. I
(15:30):
often will say that I know I wouldn't be in
the lumber business if it wasn't for Lisa. Oh yeah,
my four delicious, beautiful children, if they took after their father,
would probably be at least half incarcerated, and god knows
what else Without Lisa and I get a lot of headlines.
(15:52):
I've got an Academy Award book, got this podcast up
and on all kinds of national TV shows and all
the wrong. But there's this beautiful brunette, member of the
army of normal folks who I don't exist without. And
(16:13):
so when I read Ray's story, identify with what Maria
is to him.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, and she was known as really a tough person,
So I mean at least absolutely, you know, absolutely, you know.
What's interesting to me is that we focus so much
on the effect on people like Pippin and Leonard about
these the normal folks people. Let's think about the normal
folks themselves and the courage. It takes a lot of
times to be honest and open with people who've already
(16:40):
achieved a certain amount of fame. I think that's invaluable. Really,
that's a.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Really good point too, to be willing to speak up
to this person who's on right right. So, when I
was in high school, coach Spain, my god, I learned
a lot of lessons for Coachmay, But one of the
ones he taught me was the value of a firm foundation.
(17:08):
You ever heard me talk about this? Yes, And he said,
you know, if I stacked up one hundred dollar bills
to equal a million dollars, would be about three feet
doll and he said, I'd like you to stand on those,
and if you can stand on them for a minute,
you can have them. But of course, if you stood
on a pack of one hundred dollar bills three feet tall,
(17:29):
they just break and fold out from a hundredth if
you can fall right on your butt. He said, I'm
going to give you a football. If you can stand
on that football for three minutes, I'll give you this
million dollars. You can't stand on a football for three minutes,
And he said, I'll tell you what. I'm going to
give you the state championship trophy for basketball. If you
can stand on that thing for three minutes without falling off,
(17:49):
I'll give you this million dollars. You fall on your ass.
And the point is, literally, you cannot stand on fame,
you cannot stand unfortune, you can not stand on it.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
It's fleeting anyway.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You very literally will fall on your rand and it
will go away. However, if you build your life on
a firm foundation of character and integrity and trust and
hard work and dignity, then when that money and that
fame and fortune can come your way, you'll being able
to stand on that foundation, a hold it in your arms,
(18:25):
and you won't fall off because it doesn't define you,
it won't ruin you, it won't make you fall on
your rand. I don't think you can properly maintain your
balance on that foundation unless you have the army of
normal folks in your life having the courage to remind
(18:46):
you of the heading on your compass. And as you
hear all of these stories of Pippin and Sugarwey, Leonard
and all these golfers. It is just so a parent
that it really is the power of an army of
normal folks behind all their greatness.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, it's constant. I mean, I don't care how much
you achieved, how long your life is. These are regular
checkups you need all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Which means everyone listening to us today has an immediate
opportunity to be part of the army just by being
a guiding light for a friend, a good grandparent or
good parent, or brother or sister or sibling. In although
(19:33):
the investment you're making you may not see immediately in
this age of immediate gratification, it may be a decade
or two later that what you do today actually shows
its true effect. But people littered throughout the books you've
written are proof positive of that very thing.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And it's more important now than ever because of technology,
because everybody has their Facebook page and there do the
likes and all that we distance each other. We think
we're getting closer, we're getting further apart. I think. So
you need those who are willing to bridge that gap
to talk to you honestly, and sometimes it's scary, you're
taking a risk. We could take a risk. And if
(20:18):
you said something honestly to something you feel someone's going
off the wrong way, and you said that to somebody,
you could harm the relationship. But if you honestly believe
that person, for that person's welfare health that you need
to say something, I think you owe it to that
person to do it well.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And you can't be You have to be courageous to
be in any army. Yeah, yeah, fascinating stuff. Any other
stories you want.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
To tell, Well, there's so many in this book. I mean,
you know, even the great players, like I mean, spoiler alert,
Jack Nicholas is number one in this book.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Okay, I can't believe you just did that. Not Tiger
Holy smokes. Now it's that is maybe fighting words.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
For those of you are still listening. Essentially, I mean,
Jack Nicholas had the most major championships. He's got twenty.
I'm not giving him everyone had him at eighteen. I'm
giving him the two US Amateurs he won in nineteen
fifty nine and sixty one, because I believe that the
amateur needs to have its glory restored. We have lost
sight of the pursuit of golf for golf and all
(21:24):
about money. So much as sports is about money. I
could go on a whole other podcast how much I
hate the transfer portal and foot football all the money
college guys. I mean, that's a whole other issue.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I know you're smiling.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
We could know. It's just a transfer portal. It's not
just college football. Yes, I know, it's nil and it's
all college.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
It's all college. It's not even college athectics anymore.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Ole miss. We'll spend five million dollars on nil for
women's basketball. Yeah, so it's everywhere. Yeah, and coming to
a high school near you. What's happening?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So and so if you watch.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
In Florida or California or Texas, high school players will
start getting paid. It will start there, I will bet.
And if someone says you can't do it, they'll go
to the Supreme Court and they'll say if they can
do it in college, they can do it in high school.
It is going to start happening with fifteen year olds
watch and see. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, And that's why for me in this book, I mean,
I can't tell you how much. I can never tell
how much a player made in a tournament. I don't
know how much Tiger made his career. Jack made his career.
I know the titles, I know the trophy. It's all
about It should be all about the victory, the trophy,
the pride that comes, and so many great players in history,
That's what it was about. Now we talk about live.
Now we talk about I'm sorry I'm doing this in Memphis,
(22:39):
but the FedEx Cup, Okay, that doesn't matter or matters
is the victory and the titles. And so I wanted
to restore the amateur. So Nicholas won. I'm giving him
credit for those amateurs. He's got twenty majors, not eighteen.
He's got nineteen seconds, nine thirds. His numbers are better
than Tiger Woods. The reason I brought up Jack because
Jack had a teacher named Jack Rout. He learned how
to play golf from him at the AID. And I
(23:01):
always wonder what if Jack Route wasn't working at the
country club in Columbus, Ohio with Jack nicholss was would
Jack Nicholas ever have become Jack Nicholas. And that's the
other thing with all these greats, they also were very
fortunate the right person was there. Dave Jacobs was there.
What if he wasn't there, who knows what would happen.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Where does Sugar Ray Leonard end up?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
And what about all the people didn't because they didn't
get blessed with somebody like that, how they turned out?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, But the point to that, the inspiration to that
for our show and our listeners is we may not
be Sugar Ray Leonard, but we can damn well be
Dave Jacobs right now. Yeah, we may not have the
god given talent to be Jack Nicholas, but we can
sure be his mentor. We may not be six' nine
(23:48):
and can win six championship rings With Chicago, bills but
we could Be Scottie pipps's. Brother, yeah, absolutely who NOW
i think still coaches high school ball or, something or
did at least out of the. Book the point is
there's an opportunity everything every day to support, greatness.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Absolutely by being of a birth. Army and what do
we do when we support Greatst we're not just supporting our,
friend our family. Member we're supporting the values and ideals
that we should go we should live, by and we
can't lose sight of that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Either we'll be right back question one more. Book, First,
Bill we're gonna talk about one more Of michael's. Books,
(24:43):
first For god's, SAKES i didn't need, this FEELS i
will shut up now you can interview. Him i'm not
about to interview him about my own. Book we just
want to ambush, You, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
NO i want to tell you and, THIS i mean,
this mean this very.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Deeply is that the first of, all for everyone listening
and the people sitting in this, ROOM i had no
idea had my daggum book with. Them so, yeah that's
WHY i put it under the other gross sitting. Here
but go, ahead what do you?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Have, WELL i, Mean i'm just BECAUSE i was so
affected by the people that you introduced me To sam
and and and talked.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
About. God, uh there's a there's a there's a we
have a shop talk On Sam, quinn don't We if
anybody wants to know Who sam? Is good to our shop?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Talk, YEAH i, mean And sam passed away how many
years ago now? Too, yeah the dignity that he carried
himself when day after day that was so moving to.
Me so that book had a profound influence on me
and meeting and meeting the people that You.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
You also just told me just this morning you went
and visited another.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Person, Yeah, jackie who is how many years she's been there?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Now is trying to figure out thirty?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
One, yeah Where i'm staying In, memphis down the block
at The Lorraine, Motel Jackie.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Loraine motel Where Martin Luther king was, assassinated.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Right And, jackie what is her last? Name and try
to Remember Bill?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Smith?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yes and she WHEN i did the book To Be
bill ten years. Ago she was there every day just
trying to keep in people's minds the importance of this,
hotel this, motel and what it means to, history what
it means To African american, History and that's a whole other.
Story AND i was so gratified to see her there
this morning again after all these, years still keeping up that.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Fight she has been on that curb for thirty one,
years protesting The National Civil Rights, museum which that doesn't
seem right that An African american woman would be protesting this.
Museum but her argument was that monuments don't perpetuate the
memory of men like Doctor king actions, do and that
(26:55):
she would have liked to have seen some of the
money spent on that hotel rather than creating gentrification in
a place where there were needy. People that that money
would have been sent to support the people who'd supported
that rain when Doctor king was. There that was her.
Protest she hold herself up in the hotel and after
(27:16):
thirty days the Sheriff Shelby Kenny sheriff's put her and
her belongings on the curb across the, street and for
thirty one years she has not. Left phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Woman. Yeah, yeah people are capable of things you can't
imagine really when it comes down to. It Brad, GAINES
i want to ask you about. Him are you in
touch with him at? All, Yeah i'll talk.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
To him fairly, recently and obviously his daughter is making
waves in the national spotlight right. NOW i did not
know that what she is the lead behind transgender athletes
not Paying, huh you.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Gonna Tell michael it's her first?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Name oh, No Riley Riley. Gaines Riley gaines Is Brad gaines's.
Daughter OH i did not know. That, yeah, yes that
Is Riley.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Gains oh my, gosh, Right, glenn where you were talking?
Speaker 1 (28:05):
About who Is Brad? Gaines?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, WELL i Think michael's going to tell, WELL i,
MEAN i just remember he was the he was The
what happened is That Chucky, mullins the player From rebels football,
player broke his neck on a play In october of
nineteen eighty, nine And Brad gaines was the man he
had tried to, tackle and they became great.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Friends and it just showed what would you say that
that was the most important impact for.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
You on that? Was, WELL i was there AND i
watched it, happen and fifteen minutes LATER i watched the
helicopter pull off the south side of the Bought hemingway
With chucky in. It we all knew that it was.
Bad And chucky of course penned quadriplegic and died five years.
(28:53):
Later chucky Hit Brad brad was catching a. Football brad
went to Visit chucky three days later and it changed his.
Life and every single, year on two different, occasions the
anniversary of the accident and On chucky's, birthday bride goes To,
(29:15):
Russell alabama Where chucky is, buried and he cleans his
gravesite and wipes his. Headstone And brad is this white
guy From nashville and went To, vanderbilt And chucky's this
very poor black guy From, Russell alabama who was raised
(29:36):
by his football. Coach they come from two different walks of.
Life and When brad leaned down Over chucky In Baptist
More hospital In memphis to tell him how sorry he,
Was chucky looked at him and, said it's not your.
Fault and they forged a friendship and we're best of
(29:59):
friends until the Day chuckie. Died and Now brad looks
After chucky and will do so until he. Does and
it's speaks to the power of an army of normal
folks just seeing one another's humanity and caring for one.
Another you, know what's.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
The whole thing everything all this is about is the
triumph of people and the character and the ideals over
the rapid movement of technology and the and everything going.
On IS i feel that as long as we hold
on to that and keep people acting in that, way
there's so much hope of the.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Future and littered throughout your books are stories of just
how that interaction affects change lives to the point of.
Greatness so anybody else have any, thoughts ideas or questions
while we Have michael before we, Wrap, yes, sir are
you going to tell Them Tiger woods should be number?
(30:55):
One Not John, nicholas say your name.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Please i'm, Sorry John.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Branston there you.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Go when you deal with these famous, folks do you
have to emphasize to them that it's their story but
it's your book and you have editorial. Control and if
they say something and then they, say, oh don't put
that in the book, please how do you deal with?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
That that's a really good. Question, yeah, because as someone
who has done a book With michael, before you actually
start to worry about that because what happens is they
keep asking questions and you end up going down these
paths and you open up and then you're, LIKE i
don't know IF i want that out there or. Not
so there's an enormous amount of trust that has to
(31:39):
exist between you and your, biographer and if you break that,
trust you can forget the. Book SO i will tell
you from my perspective how that. Is but from the
writer perspective and how you protect these, stories.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
It's a different kind of book because it's not in their.
Words so if they told me something that really, GOOD
i didn't, say well you sure you want that in?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
There you KNOW.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
I didn't do. That but they are aware that they
were on the. Record they are aware THAT i could
use anything they told, me and it didn't get it
never got to that level where something nobody, said, oh
you can't use. THAT i mean, technically when somebody tells
you something and then they say you can't use, it
it's too, late right because they TOLD i wouldn't do it,
ANYWAY i wouldn't violate. THAT i one time had somebody
(32:25):
tell me something and that person called me up a
couple hours later and just was, LIKE i really wouldn't
want that in. There and it's a tough call because
it's good. News but then you also, realize, well you
want to, build you don't want to hurt, somebody and
you also by not doing, THAT i wound up creating
this longtime friend that paid off journalistically much more than
(32:46):
IF i run that initial. Statement what was it like
With Philip?
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Jackson because everybody knew him as The, zinmaster and he's clearly, thoughtful,
philosophical he's well. Read what was it like dragging information on? Him?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Oh it. WAS i, MEAN i can't tell you how
BLESSED i was to sit there and hear THE i,
mean we think of sports, writers we know a lot about,
sports we know nothing compared to somebody who's in the
throes of, it who understands the intricacies of every single
play and. Mindset it was like going to a. Master
every hour and a half with two hour interview with
him was like a, masterclass unbelievableut the nuances of the
(33:26):
game of. Basketball but in all the conversations in the
year since, then we hardly ever talk about. Basketball we
talk about, life we talk about, relationships we talk about,
politics all that, stuff Because i'm NOT i, MEAN i love,
sports but let's face, it and the whole scheme of,
things you, know there's so many more things more important than,
that aren't. There BUT i love Phil jackson's Great.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Say your, name Sir by knows Who's.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Yeah I'm Philip. Pleasanby thank you for being. Here, first thank.
You this is my questions revolve Around Tiger. Woods since
you mentioned, him how did when you were researching you're interviewing,
Him how did he view his, Father? Earl did he
feel like he was too tough on him or did
he give him a lot of? Credit and the second
question is is a reference to what you, said which
(34:11):
is the scandal took a little some of his greatness.
Away now that he has matured as a man father
and gotten way past. That did he feel like it
also hurt his legacy and his?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Credibility, well first of, ALL i didn't talk to, Him,
Okay he's one of the number of players he doesn't
authors don't interview At tiger doesn't, Happen, okay which is a,
LOSS i, think, Really BUT i think you asked about his.
Father say that, again kind of like what you.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Want did he credit how did he view his father
because his father was pretty tough on him shaking a.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
CAR i think he's.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Coins when he was golfing and, yeah, yeah, NO i
think he is all the gratitude in the world for
with his father To. Fiers, yeah, yeah there's no question about.
THAT i first Met tiger at a tournament in nineteen
ninety six In. Illinois he was twenty years. Old he
blew the tournament in the last round a terrible. DAY
i had a quadruple bogey on one, hole and in
(35:06):
the press conference, AFTERWARDS i, said, so what are you
going to learn from? That and he stared at me
for the longest, time AND i, thought oh my, god
this guy is so. Intense and he, SAID i don't,
know But i'm going to learn a, lot and he.
Did i've never seen anyone more driven Than Tiger, woods
that's for.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Sure so here's the bottom. Line Mike arkush has written
a cool. Book he's written a number of cool. Books
the most, recently The golf one hundred is spirited ranking
of the greatest players of all. Time he has spent
an enormous amount of effort and time on, this and
it's not just a. Ranking it's a small historical snippet
(35:43):
for each player that kind of describes how and why
they ended up where they are to support their. Greatness and,
guys if you're listening to me for the father who has,
everything get the. Book it's. AWESOME i know you're not
here just to promote the, book But i'm voting it
for you BECAUSE i think it's. Awesome and beyond, that
(36:06):
it's so good to see you. Again oh my, god
absolutely same. Here, yeah we're going to have dinner tonight With.
Lisa looking forward to. It soulfish doesn't have to lopia.
Anymore you broke that news to me. Yesterday i'm still
not over. It there was a time for nine months
WHERE i think you ate to. Lopy you at soul fish.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Probably three or four it so they would go out
of business without, me no.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Doubt it's. Unbelievable. Michael thank you for being, here, everybody
thank you for joining. Us and you, KNOW i can't
wait to see what comes out of that brain. NEXT
i know you've got another project you're newdland on right.
Now i'll tell you, Later, yeah you tell you. Later,
michael thanks for being. Here, thanks thank you very, much thank,
you and thank you for joining us this. Week If MICHAEL.
(36:51):
R kush or other guests have inspired you in, general
or better, yet by supporting someone in your community or
something else, entirely please let me. Know i'd love to
hear about. It you can write me anytime At bill
at Normal folks dot, us AND i promise YOU i will.
Respond and if you enjoyed this, episode share with friends on,
(37:12):
social subscribe to the, podcast rate, it review, it join
The army at Normal folks Dot, us consider becoming a
premium member there any and all of these things that
will help us grow an army of normal. Folks I'm Bill.
Cordon until next, time do what you can
Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army and normal folks.
And we continue now a part two of our conversation
with Michael Harkush. Right after these brief messages from our
general sponsors, you went into a rabbit hole for three years,
(00:30):
and you were afraid that Paul Otto is going to
put out a missing person report because nobody saw you
correct and you developed this thing, and then you go
all over the world talking to these people or their families.
How did you make I I'm Michael, I'm writing a book.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Because well, a number of I knew, so I alad
had their numbers and all that, and then I got
led to other players that wasn't But it was great
catching up with them because because part of the book
also was I want part of the whole idea of it.
I wanted to find out these players now in their
seventies and eighties, how they viewed their lives now versus
when they were in the heat of competition. Did the
losses matter to them as much anymore? And I don't
(01:14):
want to get too morbid about it, but that my
whole concept was, with the biggest loss of all to come,
how did they view their lives, and I guess personally,
I'm getting older. That also was part of my thinking.
I wanted to kind of figure out where did the
sport fit in my life, and so I was trying
to have those conversations with them. It didn't really work
(01:35):
a lot of times, but I felt at different moments
that I'd hear a pause, something in their voice, an
effect that made it sound like they understood. They didn't
care about those losses as much anymore. They saw the
perspective of.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
All of it. That is so interesting. Okay, So for
those of you with fathers, when father's days coming up,
I'm telling you you're crazy not to buy this book
form and you don't even have to be a golfer,
because it's also as i've read through, i haven't read
the whole thing yet, but I've read half of the chapters.
(02:09):
As i've read through it, it's such an interesting history
lesson because we're not we're not just talking about golfers
what they did on golf course. So much of it
is what they did off of the golf course, about
their life that is vastly interesting that we're exposed to
the first one that I think is interesting in supporting greatness.
(02:32):
Ken Venturi obviously an amazing golfer, but might be known
by you know people my age and younger. Is is
kind of the voice of golf on TV. Yes, you know,
on the Masters, you always went to Kenventurie, you know,
I mean, I remember his voice. Oddly. He came close
(02:54):
to winning the Masters in fifty six, fifty eight, and
sixty and by sixty three as game fell apart and
there was a really normal person who changed his life
for him.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, let me just tell you a little more about
the background. In fifty six he had a four shot
lead entering the final round. He was an amateur, okay,
He shot an eighty on the final day to lose
six blew up totally. In fifty eight he lost to
Arnold Palmer. It's a whole other controversy because of a
ruling in nineteen sixty Arnold Palmer Birdie the last two
holes to beat him at the Masters by a shot.
(03:28):
So here he is. He's in a period of five years,
three times he could have won the Masters, still won
a bunch of other tournaments. Sixty three, as Bill said,
his game fell apart sixty and he turned to alcohol.
You know, he's just so down on himself. Everybody thought
he was going to be the next Ben Hogan and
it didn't turn didn't turn out that way at all.
(03:49):
So he went into a bar in San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Hold it, I want to read something he wrote. I
was a washed up loser. Now this is a guy
who d I'm near run of the masters three times,
top of his game in his mind. I was a
washed up loser, he wrote in his own memoir, closer
to selling cars my former lot of work, than to
winning them. My swing had vanished, along with my confidence.
(04:15):
I turned alcohol.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Those are his work, Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And he
went into this bar I'm just downtown San Francisco, and
he saw a guy named Dave Marcelli who had played
football at the University of San Francisco, and Dave spoke
to him honestly, he basically told him, you're wasting your career.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
You're wasting Dave a bartender.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, he's a bartender. I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
This is the normal guy. Yeah, the bartender.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, the bartender who basically said to him that he
was wasting his life. And Ken just thanked him and
had one last jack. Daniels just sort of okay, one
for the road right, made a promise, I give you
my word, I will not have another drink until I
win again. The next day's practicing. A few months later,
he's playing some tournaments, doesn't do well, finally comes up
(04:59):
with the a couple decent finishes, and that brings us
to the nineteen sixty four US Open, a congressional outside
DC where Ken Ventori won the US Open in near
one hundred degree temperatures after the doctor had told him.
Back then they used to play the US Open final
round thirty six holes in one day on a Saturday.
The doctor had told him after the first eighteen do
(05:21):
not go back out there. It could be fatal, and
Ken did not care because what he had been living
through was worse than that. He wound up winning the
Open and that entirely changed his life.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
And he became the Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
But then two years later at Carpal Tunnel syndrome and
his career was over.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That was it. But the point is he would have
never reached the pinnacle of his career if it wasn't
for a bartender named Dave Marcella who talked him out
of drinking and turned his life fro him. He wouldn't
have been on the TV had he not done all this,
his life was done.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, just a bartender in Servicesco on Gary Street and
services go yep.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
If you do not think the power of an army
of normal folks is very real, and you do not
think that opportunity exists around you every single day, you
cannot hear that story and not understand that Dave Marcelo,
or former football player at the University of Francisco, serving
Jack Daniels to Ken Venturiye, challenging Kim not to waste
(06:25):
his talent, and the man's life change.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And that's another thing. Is you know that we talk
about the supporting great is it doesn't just happen at
the initial stage. It also happens so profoundly at another point,
another turning point. Really it becomes later on. You could
have that initial part of success, but when you falter,
who are those people to pick you up in the
middle of your journey a guy like that, Because Ken
(06:50):
had success before that, we have to remember that can
happen throughout one's life.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
All right, three pack a female golf.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And let me tell you one thing, really important is
why female golfers are in this book. I could have
I thought about another list, but I felt like women
are marginalized enough in life. In sports, they have to
form the fabric of the greatest golfers of all time,
so I made sure they were in there.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I think I read, I think i'd actually read in
this book. I know I read it last night. It
was late, it was midnight. But I think you credit
the most beautiful swing and the history of golf to
a female.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Correct. Mickey Wright absolutely that.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Her swing, yes, was more beautiful than any swing ever
to Waltimas.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And Ben Hogan even said so, yes.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Who supported her greatness?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, so many people supported her greatness. But I'll refer
to something in here about her father really was the
one her father pushed her. Some people feel her father
pushed her too hard, that he maybe should have let
go of but not done that. And you know a
lot of people say that about Well, that's an important
point I think about supporting greatness is that it may
(08:04):
seem like too much at a certain point. It means
too pushy, too demanding. To get to that, I mean
a lot of people say that about Earl Woods, Tiger's
father that he was too hard. But you know a
lot of times, that's what it takes to be able
to get to greatness. It's it's not easy, right, It's
not something that comes automatically. You need that push.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah. I think I'd say about my four kids, they
may be good and they may be bad, but none
of them are going to be wallflowers. No, we're going
to work.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah. Yeah, and so what In her early teens, her
father basically got her out of bed to make sure
she ran up and down the stairs of their fifteen
story apartment building about one hundred miles from soul I
wanted to teach her that to win in golf, her
father said, she first had to win the battle within herself.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
I mean, that's it, is it? That's amazing, Yeah, that's it.
And she credits much of her success to those lessons.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, And she's important because she on a global level,
had such an impact on the game. Look at all
the South Koreans and Asians playing golf right now, So
much of that because of her.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
She's all because her dad pushedra.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, Alex and I have had a revelation these last
six months where we really started talking about the fact
that you can have profound impact and be a member
of the army of normal folks and your greatest work
may be down the hallway of your home, right, And
(09:39):
this speaks.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
To that absolutely, absolutely, because.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
What's the point in going out and doing anything good
in the community and society if you're not taking care
of what's under your roof? First?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Carrie Web, Carrie Web.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Tell the story of Calvin Haller. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Kelvin Haller is a greenskeeper at the club in Australia
where she grew up, and basically when she was a
little girl, she got to know him and he taught
her so important I don't want to bore you with
the details of the game so much, but really taught
her the importance of practice and swinging and all that.
And then he had an accident and he became a paraplegic.
And yet over the years he kept instructing her. He
(10:21):
would receive these videos from Carrie's caddy that he would
get and be able to kind of just buy the
videos and even I think sometimes talking to the caddy
on the phone describing exactly what Karrie needed to work
on her game. And he wound up passing away, which
taught Carrie another early lesson about the fragility of life rights.
Never that lesson can't be taught enough. But he was
(10:42):
hugely instrumental in her career, and she's one of the
great players.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Did you speak to her? Oh yeah, yeah, did you
so she told you the story? Oh?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah. What was it like her delivery on that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Again, it was that voice, that reverence, that that appreciation.
It's there's transplanted right away back to that moment of
that relationship. And I heard it everything every time we
talked about him.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, Johnny Miller, Now, Johnny Miller was one of the greats.
And there's there's an homage he pays too. I think
his father.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, No, his father meant everything to him. His father
was a Morse code specialist in World War Two, worked
the night shift as a supervisor for RCA in the
Bay Area, and for two and a half years he
had his son hit ball after ball by a mirror
in the garage, copying the swings of Hogan Staden Nelson
because his father had bought those instruction books from those
(11:47):
players filled with pictures. Before he even took Johnny.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
To the Governors. He played golf of the garage, wherever
he went, saw.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Just basically just practiced the swing in the garage. And
the line is the amount of time my father devoted
was incredible. So basically his father, the US Open mean everything.
So when Johnny Miller won the US Open in nineteen
seventy three, he was the happiest thing about it for
him was that he had done it for his father.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
We'll be right back Ray Floyd. Now, Ray Floyd was
one of my favorite golfers growing up. Anyways, I think
he was sponsored by Yellow Pages. Okay, is that not right?
(12:34):
I don't know. I think at one time he was
sponsored by the Yellow Page. But Ray Floyd always played
in the Memphis Start.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
You're gonna have to tell people what yellow Pages are.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, I know. Well, if you're too old to know that,
ask your mom or dad or grandparent. But I would
always sneak onto the course because I didn't have money
for tickets. There was a hole on the sixteenth green
in the fence you could literally fall under.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
You're the guy, Yeah, I am that guy.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
That's exactly where. And I would follow Trevino or rayf
Lloyd or believe it or not, a guy named Andy Bean.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, No, I spoke to Ady Being a number of times.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yes, no, kid. Well, the reason I liked Andy Bean
is because he looked like a football player.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
He was a large, large man. But anyway, tell me
about Ray Floyd. Ray Floyd was a playboy. He did
not really fulfill his potential. That's another thing I found
out in this book. There are a lot of players
here who, as great as they were, should have been better.
And he, I think, really messed up a lot of
his early career. But then he met Maria, wound up
marrying her, and he's had a tournament in the early
(13:38):
seventies and basically he looks like he's not going to
make the cut. He runs into this front of his
Bob Rosberg, another player, former PGA champion, and Rosberg says, hey,
let's go, let's go to the racetrack. You're not going
to make Ray figured why not? So Ray quit the
tournament right there, decided he wasn't going to play the
rest of the rest of the I think he just
(14:00):
played twenty seven holes and he realized he wasn't going
to shoot well the next nine holes to make the cut,
went back to the hotel and told Maria, let's go back.
We're getting out here. She is, I'm not going anywhere.
This is your life, this is your career. You're not
walking out him this. You're not walking to go to
the racetrack. I'm not going. And she made him realize
so importantly that he can't just throw away his talent.
That you know, talent's a gift, but what does it
(14:24):
mean if you don't exercise it? What does it mean
if you don't practice? And he learned that lesson from her.
That's one conversation. Years later, he's at the He's in
nineteen eighty six and June of eighty six, he had
just blown up a chance to win a tournament in
New York State, west Chester Classic, and they're in the
car and she starts telling him, why did you screw up? On?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
All these things happened, and she engaged him, got into
that whole conversation. He basically stopped the car on the
Long Island Expressway and was said, either you get out
or I get out right, and he wound up. Nobody
got out, The kids are crying in the backseat. Went
on and he went to win the US Open a
few days later because of her persistence at forty three
years old.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, one of the excerpts is she said to him,
you've got a long life ahead of you. If golf
isn't what you want to do for a living, now's
the time to get out and think about doing something else.
You're not giving it your best. This is the best line,
she said. You're not being fair to me, right. I
(15:30):
often will say that I know I wouldn't be in
the lumber business if it wasn't for Lisa. Oh yeah,
my four delicious, beautiful children, if they took after their father,
would probably be at least half incarcerated, and god knows
what else Without Lisa and I get a lot of headlines.
(15:52):
I've got an Academy Award book, got this podcast up
and on all kinds of national TV shows and all
the wrong. But there's this beautiful brunette, member of the
army of normal folks who I don't exist without. And
(16:13):
so when I read Ray's story, identify with what Maria
is to him.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, and she was known as really a tough person,
So I mean at least absolutely, you know, absolutely, you know.
What's interesting to me is that we focus so much
on the effect on people like Pippin and Leonard about
these the normal folks people. Let's think about the normal
folks themselves and the courage. It takes a lot of
times to be honest and open with people who've already
(16:40):
achieved a certain amount of fame. I think that's invaluable. Really,
that's a.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Really good point too, to be willing to speak up
to this person who's on right right. So, when I
was in high school, coach Spain, my god, I learned
a lot of lessons for Coachmay, But one of the
ones he taught me was the value of a firm foundation.
(17:08):
You ever heard me talk about this? Yes, And he said,
you know, if I stacked up one hundred dollar bills
to equal a million dollars, would be about three feet
doll and he said, I'd like you to stand on those,
and if you can stand on them for a minute,
you can have them. But of course, if you stood
on a pack of one hundred dollar bills three feet tall,
(17:29):
they just break and fold out from a hundredth if
you can fall right on your butt. He said, I'm
going to give you a football. If you can stand
on that football for three minutes, I'll give you this
million dollars. You can't stand on a football for three minutes,
And he said, I'll tell you what. I'm going to
give you the state championship trophy for basketball. If you
can stand on that thing for three minutes without falling off,
(17:49):
I'll give you this million dollars. You fall on your ass.
And the point is, literally, you cannot stand on fame,
you cannot stand unfortune, you can not stand on it.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
It's fleeting anyway.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You very literally will fall on your rand and it
will go away. However, if you build your life on
a firm foundation of character and integrity and trust and
hard work and dignity, then when that money and that
fame and fortune can come your way, you'll being able
to stand on that foundation, a hold it in your arms,
(18:25):
and you won't fall off because it doesn't define you,
it won't ruin you, it won't make you fall on
your rand. I don't think you can properly maintain your
balance on that foundation unless you have the army of
normal folks in your life having the courage to remind
(18:46):
you of the heading on your compass. And as you
hear all of these stories of Pippin and Sugarwey, Leonard
and all these golfers. It is just so a parent
that it really is the power of an army of
normal folks behind all their greatness.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, it's constant. I mean, I don't care how much
you achieved, how long your life is. These are regular
checkups you need all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Which means everyone listening to us today has an immediate
opportunity to be part of the army just by being
a guiding light for a friend, a good grandparent or
good parent, or brother or sister or sibling. In although
(19:33):
the investment you're making you may not see immediately in
this age of immediate gratification, it may be a decade
or two later that what you do today actually shows
its true effect. But people littered throughout the books you've
written are proof positive of that very thing.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And it's more important now than ever because of technology,
because everybody has their Facebook page and there do the
likes and all that we distance each other. We think
we're getting closer, we're getting further apart. I think. So
you need those who are willing to bridge that gap
to talk to you honestly, and sometimes it's scary, you're
taking a risk. We could take a risk. And if
(20:18):
you said something honestly to something you feel someone's going
off the wrong way, and you said that to somebody,
you could harm the relationship. But if you honestly believe
that person, for that person's welfare health that you need
to say something, I think you owe it to that
person to do it well.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And you can't be You have to be courageous to
be in any army. Yeah, yeah, fascinating stuff. Any other
stories you want.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
To tell, Well, there's so many in this book. I mean,
you know, even the great players, like I mean, spoiler alert,
Jack Nicholas is number one in this book.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Okay, I can't believe you just did that. Not Tiger
Holy smokes. Now it's that is maybe fighting words.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
For those of you are still listening. Essentially, I mean,
Jack Nicholas had the most major championships. He's got twenty.
I'm not giving him everyone had him at eighteen. I'm
giving him the two US Amateurs he won in nineteen
fifty nine and sixty one, because I believe that the
amateur needs to have its glory restored. We have lost
sight of the pursuit of golf for golf and all
(21:24):
about money. So much as sports is about money. I
could go on a whole other podcast how much I
hate the transfer portal and foot football all the money
college guys. I mean, that's a whole other issue.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I know you're smiling.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
We could know. It's just a transfer portal. It's not
just college football. Yes, I know, it's nil and it's
all college.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
It's all college. It's not even college athectics anymore.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Ole miss. We'll spend five million dollars on nil for
women's basketball. Yeah, so it's everywhere. Yeah, and coming to
a high school near you. What's happening?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So and so if you watch.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
In Florida or California or Texas, high school players will
start getting paid. It will start there, I will bet.
And if someone says you can't do it, they'll go
to the Supreme Court and they'll say if they can
do it in college, they can do it in high school.
It is going to start happening with fifteen year olds
watch and see. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, And that's why for me in this book, I mean,
I can't tell you how much. I can never tell
how much a player made in a tournament. I don't
know how much Tiger made his career. Jack made his career.
I know the titles, I know the trophy. It's all
about It should be all about the victory, the trophy,
the pride that comes, and so many great players in history,
That's what it was about. Now we talk about live.
Now we talk about I'm sorry I'm doing this in Memphis,
(22:39):
but the FedEx Cup, Okay, that doesn't matter or matters
is the victory and the titles. And so I wanted
to restore the amateur. So Nicholas won. I'm giving him
credit for those amateurs. He's got twenty majors, not eighteen.
He's got nineteen seconds, nine thirds. His numbers are better
than Tiger Woods. The reason I brought up Jack because
Jack had a teacher named Jack Rout. He learned how
to play golf from him at the AID. And I
(23:01):
always wonder what if Jack Route wasn't working at the
country club in Columbus, Ohio with Jack nicholss was would
Jack Nicholas ever have become Jack Nicholas. And that's the
other thing with all these greats, they also were very
fortunate the right person was there. Dave Jacobs was there.
What if he wasn't there, who knows what would happen.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Where does Sugar Ray Leonard end up?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
And what about all the people didn't because they didn't
get blessed with somebody like that, how they turned out?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, But the point to that, the inspiration to that
for our show and our listeners is we may not
be Sugar Ray Leonard, but we can damn well be
Dave Jacobs right now. Yeah, we may not have the
god given talent to be Jack Nicholas, but we can
sure be his mentor. We may not be six' nine
(23:48):
and can win six championship rings With Chicago, bills but
we could Be Scottie pipps's. Brother, yeah, absolutely who NOW
i think still coaches high school ball or, something or
did at least out of the. Book the point is
there's an opportunity everything every day to support, greatness.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Absolutely by being of a birth. Army and what do
we do when we support Greatst we're not just supporting our,
friend our family. Member we're supporting the values and ideals
that we should go we should live, by and we
can't lose sight of that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Either we'll be right back question one more. Book, First,
Bill we're gonna talk about one more Of michael's. Books,
(24:43):
first For god's, SAKES i didn't need, this FEELS i
will shut up now you can interview. Him i'm not
about to interview him about my own. Book we just
want to ambush, You, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
NO i want to tell you and, THIS i mean,
this mean this very.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Deeply is that the first of, all for everyone listening
and the people sitting in this, ROOM i had no
idea had my daggum book with. Them so, yeah that's
WHY i put it under the other gross sitting. Here
but go, ahead what do you?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Have, WELL i, Mean i'm just BECAUSE i was so
affected by the people that you introduced me To sam
and and and talked.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
About. God, uh there's a there's a there's a we
have a shop talk On Sam, quinn don't We if
anybody wants to know Who sam? Is good to our shop?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Talk, YEAH i, mean And sam passed away how many
years ago now? Too, yeah the dignity that he carried
himself when day after day that was so moving to.
Me so that book had a profound influence on me
and meeting and meeting the people that You.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
You also just told me just this morning you went
and visited another.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Person, Yeah, jackie who is how many years she's been there?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Now is trying to figure out thirty?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
One, yeah Where i'm staying In, memphis down the block
at The Lorraine, Motel Jackie.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Loraine motel Where Martin Luther king was, assassinated.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Right And, jackie what is her last? Name and try
to Remember Bill?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Smith?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yes and she WHEN i did the book To Be
bill ten years. Ago she was there every day just
trying to keep in people's minds the importance of this,
hotel this, motel and what it means to, history what
it means To African american, History and that's a whole other.
Story AND i was so gratified to see her there
this morning again after all these, years still keeping up that.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Fight she has been on that curb for thirty one,
years protesting The National Civil Rights, museum which that doesn't
seem right that An African american woman would be protesting this.
Museum but her argument was that monuments don't perpetuate the
memory of men like Doctor king actions, do and that
(26:55):
she would have liked to have seen some of the
money spent on that hotel rather than creating gentrification in
a place where there were needy. People that that money
would have been sent to support the people who'd supported
that rain when Doctor king was. There that was her.
Protest she hold herself up in the hotel and after
(27:16):
thirty days the Sheriff Shelby Kenny sheriff's put her and
her belongings on the curb across the, street and for
thirty one years she has not. Left phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Woman. Yeah, yeah people are capable of things you can't
imagine really when it comes down to. It Brad, GAINES
i want to ask you about. Him are you in
touch with him at? All, Yeah i'll talk.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
To him fairly, recently and obviously his daughter is making
waves in the national spotlight right. NOW i did not
know that what she is the lead behind transgender athletes
not Paying, huh you.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Gonna Tell michael it's her first?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Name oh, No Riley Riley. Gaines Riley gaines Is Brad gaines's.
Daughter OH i did not know. That, yeah, yes that
Is Riley.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Gains oh my, gosh, Right, glenn where you were talking?
Speaker 1 (28:05):
About who Is Brad? Gaines?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, WELL i Think michael's going to tell, WELL i,
MEAN i just remember he was the he was The
what happened is That Chucky, mullins the player From rebels football,
player broke his neck on a play In october of
nineteen eighty, nine And Brad gaines was the man he
had tried to, tackle and they became great.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Friends and it just showed what would you say that
that was the most important impact for.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
You on that? Was, WELL i was there AND i
watched it, happen and fifteen minutes LATER i watched the
helicopter pull off the south side of the Bought hemingway
With chucky in. It we all knew that it was.
Bad And chucky of course penned quadriplegic and died five years.
(28:53):
Later chucky Hit Brad brad was catching a. Football brad
went to Visit chucky three days later and it changed his.
Life and every single, year on two different, occasions the
anniversary of the accident and On chucky's, birthday bride goes To,
(29:15):
Russell alabama Where chucky is, buried and he cleans his
gravesite and wipes his. Headstone And brad is this white
guy From nashville and went To, vanderbilt And chucky's this
very poor black guy From, Russell alabama who was raised
(29:36):
by his football. Coach they come from two different walks of.
Life and When brad leaned down Over chucky In Baptist
More hospital In memphis to tell him how sorry he,
Was chucky looked at him and, said it's not your.
Fault and they forged a friendship and we're best of
(29:59):
friends until the Day chuckie. Died and Now brad looks
After chucky and will do so until he. Does and
it's speaks to the power of an army of normal
folks just seeing one another's humanity and caring for one.
Another you, know what's.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
The whole thing everything all this is about is the
triumph of people and the character and the ideals over
the rapid movement of technology and the and everything going.
On IS i feel that as long as we hold
on to that and keep people acting in that, way
there's so much hope of the.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Future and littered throughout your books are stories of just
how that interaction affects change lives to the point of.
Greatness so anybody else have any, thoughts ideas or questions
while we Have michael before we, Wrap, yes, sir are
you going to tell Them Tiger woods should be number?
(30:55):
One Not John, nicholas say your name.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Please i'm, Sorry John.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Branston there you.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Go when you deal with these famous, folks do you
have to emphasize to them that it's their story but
it's your book and you have editorial. Control and if
they say something and then they, say, oh don't put
that in the book, please how do you deal with?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
That that's a really good. Question, yeah, because as someone
who has done a book With michael, before you actually
start to worry about that because what happens is they
keep asking questions and you end up going down these
paths and you open up and then you're, LIKE i
don't know IF i want that out there or. Not
so there's an enormous amount of trust that has to
(31:39):
exist between you and your, biographer and if you break that,
trust you can forget the. Book SO i will tell
you from my perspective how that. Is but from the
writer perspective and how you protect these, stories.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
It's a different kind of book because it's not in their.
Words so if they told me something that really, GOOD
i didn't, say well you sure you want that in?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
There you KNOW.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
I didn't do. That but they are aware that they
were on the. Record they are aware THAT i could
use anything they told, me and it didn't get it
never got to that level where something nobody, said, oh
you can't use. THAT i mean, technically when somebody tells
you something and then they say you can't use, it
it's too, late right because they TOLD i wouldn't do it,
ANYWAY i wouldn't violate. THAT i one time had somebody
(32:25):
tell me something and that person called me up a
couple hours later and just was, LIKE i really wouldn't
want that in. There and it's a tough call because
it's good. News but then you also, realize, well you
want to, build you don't want to hurt, somebody and
you also by not doing, THAT i wound up creating
this longtime friend that paid off journalistically much more than
(32:46):
IF i run that initial. Statement what was it like
With Philip?
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Jackson because everybody knew him as The, zinmaster and he's clearly, thoughtful,
philosophical he's well. Read what was it like dragging information on? Him?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Oh it. WAS i, MEAN i can't tell you how
BLESSED i was to sit there and hear THE i,
mean we think of sports, writers we know a lot about,
sports we know nothing compared to somebody who's in the
throes of, it who understands the intricacies of every single
play and. Mindset it was like going to a. Master
every hour and a half with two hour interview with
him was like a, masterclass unbelievableut the nuances of the
(33:26):
game of. Basketball but in all the conversations in the
year since, then we hardly ever talk about. Basketball we
talk about, life we talk about, relationships we talk about,
politics all that, stuff Because i'm NOT i, MEAN i love,
sports but let's face, it and the whole scheme of,
things you, know there's so many more things more important than,
that aren't. There BUT i love Phil jackson's Great.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Say your, name Sir by knows Who's.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Yeah I'm Philip. Pleasanby thank you for being. Here, first thank.
You this is my questions revolve Around Tiger. Woods since
you mentioned, him how did when you were researching you're interviewing,
Him how did he view his, Father? Earl did he
feel like he was too tough on him or did
he give him a lot of? Credit and the second
question is is a reference to what you, said which
(34:11):
is the scandal took a little some of his greatness.
Away now that he has matured as a man father
and gotten way past. That did he feel like it
also hurt his legacy and his?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Credibility, well first of, ALL i didn't talk to, Him,
Okay he's one of the number of players he doesn't
authors don't interview At tiger doesn't, Happen, okay which is a,
LOSS i, think, Really BUT i think you asked about his.
Father say that, again kind of like what you.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Want did he credit how did he view his father
because his father was pretty tough on him shaking a.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
CAR i think he's.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Coins when he was golfing and, yeah, yeah, NO i
think he is all the gratitude in the world for
with his father To. Fiers, yeah, yeah there's no question about.
THAT i first Met tiger at a tournament in nineteen
ninety six In. Illinois he was twenty years. Old he
blew the tournament in the last round a terrible. DAY
i had a quadruple bogey on one, hole and in
(35:06):
the press conference, AFTERWARDS i, said, so what are you
going to learn from? That and he stared at me
for the longest, time AND i, thought oh my, god
this guy is so. Intense and he, SAID i don't,
know But i'm going to learn a, lot and he.
Did i've never seen anyone more driven Than Tiger, woods
that's for.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Sure so here's the bottom. Line Mike arkush has written
a cool. Book he's written a number of cool. Books
the most, recently The golf one hundred is spirited ranking
of the greatest players of all. Time he has spent
an enormous amount of effort and time on, this and
it's not just a. Ranking it's a small historical snippet
(35:43):
for each player that kind of describes how and why
they ended up where they are to support their. Greatness and,
guys if you're listening to me for the father who has,
everything get the. Book it's. AWESOME i know you're not
here just to promote the, book But i'm voting it
for you BECAUSE i think it's. Awesome and beyond, that
(36:06):
it's so good to see you. Again oh my, god
absolutely same. Here, yeah we're going to have dinner tonight With.
Lisa looking forward to. It soulfish doesn't have to lopia.
Anymore you broke that news to me. Yesterday i'm still
not over. It there was a time for nine months
WHERE i think you ate to. Lopy you at soul fish.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Probably three or four it so they would go out
of business without, me no.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Doubt it's. Unbelievable. Michael thank you for being, here, everybody
thank you for joining. Us and you, KNOW i can't
wait to see what comes out of that brain. NEXT
i know you've got another project you're newdland on right.
Now i'll tell you, Later, yeah you tell you. Later,
michael thanks for being. Here, thanks thank you very, much thank,
you and thank you for joining us this. Week If MICHAEL.
(36:51):
R kush or other guests have inspired you in, general
or better, yet by supporting someone in your community or
something else, entirely please let me. Know i'd love to
hear about. It you can write me anytime At bill
at Normal folks dot, us AND i promise YOU i will.
Respond and if you enjoyed this, episode share with friends on,
(37:12):
social subscribe to the, podcast rate, it review, it join
The army at Normal folks Dot, us consider becoming a
premium member there any and all of these things that
will help us grow an army of normal. Folks I'm Bill.
Cordon until next, time do what you can
Host
Bill Courtney
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