May 6, 2025 • 34 mins
For our special series “Supporting Greatness”, where we typically interview those who’ve achieved public greatness about their own Army of Normal Folks that supported them, this time we interviewed award-winning sportswriter Michael Arkush. He's written books with Scottie Pippen and Sugar Ray Leonard, about the top 100 golfers in history, and he celebrates each of their Army of Normal Folks that supported them.
Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premium
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
That's why I'm so glad you're tuning this podcast in
general as well, because I think as you get more successful,
you start to think that you can only rely on
other successful people for these lessons in life. And that's
such bs because the best lessons always come from those. Again,
the normal people who names are not in light, so okay,
we don't know who they are, and I don't think
(00:24):
you can stress that or not.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in
Inner City Memphis. And the last part it somehow led
to an oscar for the film about our team. That
movie's called Undefeated. Y'all. I just believe our country's problems
(00:51):
are just not ever going to be solved by a
bunch of fancy people and nice clothes using big words
that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather
by us, an army of normal folks. That's just you
and me seeing an area of need and deciding, hey,
maybe I can help. And today we have a new
(01:12):
edition of our special series Supporting Greatness, where we typically
interview those who've achieved public greatness about their own army
of normal folks that supported them and shaped their lives.
But this time we're interviewing award winning sportswriter Michael Rkoush,
who's written books with Scottie Pippen, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Phil Jackson,
(01:38):
and many others. In his most recent book about the
top one hundred golfers in history, Michael will celebrate each
of their army of normal folks that supported them to
make it on this list. I cannot wait for you
meet write after these brief messages from our general sponsors.
(02:10):
Michael Arkoush, Welcome to Memphis.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It's great to be here, is it? Oh man? I
love it last time ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
That's crazy that it's been ten years since you've been
in Memphis, given that you've spent about ten months here
during that ten year period ago. Yeah, it does everybody.
Michael Arkoush first and foremost is my friend. But he's
certainly not known for being my friend. What he is
is an incredible writer. He's a sportswriter. I think you've
(02:40):
written for golf, DIJA. What are the magazines?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Golf Magazine, Golf digest golf world. Yeah, and wrote the
Only Times, New York Times, Washing Post, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Washing and Post pretty much everybody yeah yeah. And he
is also an author of Sugar Ray Leonard's book, and
Phil Jackson's book and Scottie Pippens book and Ray Allen's book.
And Kurt menifies, Yes, I did a book with him. Yes, yeah,
see I remember that. You got it. You know me
more than I do some other books. I don't know
(03:09):
what are some other books.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I did a book about golfers and their fathers who
inspired them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, that kind of thing I do.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The first book I did sixty years of usc UCLA.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Football, which who wants to read that?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
So anyway, that's that's what we found out.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yes, didn't sell too well. So Mike Arkush is my friend.
He's a gifted writer, and he has just released his
latest piece of work called The Golf one hundred, a
subtitled A spirited ranking of the greatest players of all Time.
And it is a book that is to elicit argument,
(03:49):
but we're going to get into that later. I also
want to say that as impressive as Michael's resume is
that paul Etta, his wife, is the far superior of
the couple.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
No question about it. What's your line about coverage?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, you outkicked your coverage if you absolutely kich you.
Pauletta has worked in the Foreign Service in places like
Russia and Ukraine and DC and is an incredible woman
in her own right, and you way out kicked your consolutely.
So that's who Michael is in a professional personal sense.
(04:28):
As a snapshot before we get started, I want you
guys know if you're here at the end, we will
have a Q and A at the end of this
for any of you who want to ask any questions
of Michael. We are today in the Memphis Listening Lab
and the cool Crosstown Concourse and Memphis, and Michael flew
(04:49):
in last night, I guess from Santa Barbarad and yep, yep,
flew in last night to join us. Before we get
going for those listening, we will have a live in
on May eighth. That will be our next live interview.
It is going to be with nine to eleven firefighter
Tim Brown. Tim saved fifteen lives on that faithful day
(05:12):
while losing one hundred friends. His story is unbelievable. He
doesn't see himself as a hero and what he has
to teach us about the power of an army of
normal folks is phenomenal. So May eighth at six point
thirty at grind City Brewing. To learn more, you can
RSVP and find out more at one hundred friends dot
(05:37):
event bright dot com. I hope you will join us,
and I hope those listening will join us. So we've
set up who Michael is, but we're not interviewing Michael
for an army of normal folks really, because he's kind
of reached some heights that most normal folks don't. However,
(05:57):
as many of you longtime listeners will know, on occasion
we do a special segment called Supporting Greatness, and the
Supporting Greatness series is where we interview folks who've achieved
public greatness, but we interview them about their own army
of normal folks who supported, inspired and helped shape their lives,
(06:20):
so that we get to celebrate the army of normal
folks in people who've reached greatness who we don't know about.
For this series, we've interviewed people like Mike Row from
Dirty Jobs, the author of The Shack, Paul Young, and
Medal of Honor recipients to Coda Meyer and David Bellavia.
So you were in high company. In Michael's case, we're
(06:43):
interviewing him. We're going to talk a couple about a
couple of people in your life. And then also interestingly,
as a guy who's done so much biographical work and
done so much content, but we're going to let Michael
share with us stories about normal folks in the lives
of people who supported greatness, like folks like Sugarray Leonard
(07:08):
and Scottie Pippen. And then we're going to get on
some of these golfers that have some extraordinary stories in
the golf one hundred and actually how you learn those stories.
So that's it. So to start us, kind of tell
us where you came from and how you grew up.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Albany, New York, the capital of the Great State of
New York, was a great place to grow up. Close
to New York City and close to Boston would shape
me and who I am really is. My father died
when I was young. I was only twelve years old.
He died of Louke Garrit's disease. It's a really horrible
time in our life, and I'll talk about it later.
(07:45):
But my uncle and aunt introduced me to golf. It
was this way to getting away from the tragedy of
what happened at home. It was incredibly helpful. But the
influence on my life, the early influence of my life,
is a guy named doctor Stephen Burke. He's a history
professor at Union College and connected in New York. And
he taught me the value and the beauty of history
(08:05):
in such a profound way. I mean, I was not
a great student before then. I was a terrible student.
Am I saying not a great student?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I was awful?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
But he he made me care about learning. He made
me passionate about it to an unbel unbelievable degree. And
I remember the first time I got an a minus
in his exam, I felt like I had conquered the world.
And he taught me European history, Russian history, Jewish history,
and this is my high school. He was only thirty
six years old at the time. He's now eighty four,
(08:36):
and I still consult with him, talk to him once
or twice every couple months or so, let's say, and
we talk about the election, we talk about everything going
on in America. Is an unbelievable resource. And I'm just
so lucky. I've had somebody like that in my life,
somebody who was an authority on his subject like that
who made me care. And it extended way beyond. It
(08:58):
extended to sports history, and it is every aspect of
history and knowledge. And I never thought that knowledge was
such a beautiful thing to obtain, as when when I
studied with him. He remember at my high school graduation,
he stood up there and he gave the speech and
he said, I don't have a panacea for all of you.
I don't have a cure. I can't give you the
(09:19):
key to success in life. But what he didn't realize
that he had given me the key already, and I've
held on to that forever. So I'm grateful to him.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Would you be a writer for one for him?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I don't know. I know that when I was in
school in sixth or seventh grade, I used to have
a textbook and in between me and the textbook was
a notebook, and the teacher thought I was taking notes
when I was writing stories.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So it's always been.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It's always been there. It's always been part of my sickness.
And I wrote a story once about a guy who
was a fighter against a Boxer. It was sort of
a preview of the book I would write forty years later,
and I didn't know it at the time see about
Ali and Frasier. But I had all these I don't
know what happened to those notes. I think if they
went the way of my baseball cards, I.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Think it could be argued then because of the perspective
of history and what he taught you, you wouldn't have
done nearly as an.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Effective Absolutely, absolutely, I know.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
From personal experience with you, because you're irritating as hell
and proud of it. Yeah, you will research to the
nth degree before you put a word in a book.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
That has to come from.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Him, Yeah, Yeah, it does because there were so many
facts that we learned from him about all history.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
If I did not have it right factually, I mean
I was not getting an aa B. I was getting
much worse.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Absolutely. Yeah. Who else?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay. One of the person I only spoke to once
in my entire life, really for two hours, a guy
named David Halberstam. Maybe you recognize his great author is
God powers it be best in the brightest all these
was a correspondent for The New York Times. Vietnam I mean,
I think to the point that Kennedy tried to get
him out of the job because he was so on
(11:06):
top of what was going on with our failure in Vietnam.
Really even early on, and my editor at the time
I was working on a book with Phil Jackson. My
editor said, would you like to talk to Halberstam? Are
you kidding me? This is like one of my heroes.
And we were on the phone for two hours and
he told me the whole secret to writing books, which
was when you're writing a magazine article or a newspaper article,
(11:28):
in your mind all the time is how do I
boil this down? How do I go from thousand words
to seven hundred words and six words? How do I
keep it down? In books, it's like an according just
keep expanding, and the idea that you could write anything
you want, just keep it longer, just because you can
always edit later. In the Ali Fraser book, I did
(11:48):
a chapter on Jerry Corey. I don't know how many
you remember the fighter Jerry Corey. Muhammad Ali's first fight
after he was suspended was against Jerry Corey in Atlanta
in October nineteen seventy. I went up in Bakersfield, California,
and I met the Corey family, spent like a whole
day with them, came back. I spent the next two
weeks and I wrote fifteen thousand words about the Corey family. Okay,
(12:10):
what the heck was I doing? This is a book
about Ali and Fraser. It's supposed to be like sixty
or seventy thousand words, and I'm writing fifteen thousand words.
I couldn't stop myself. Seriously, I just was like some
kind of tick or something. I just had to keep going.
Eventually I turned it down to about three thousand. And
when you're sitting there a computer and cutting down twelve
eleven twelve thousand words is not easy. But to get
(12:31):
to what those three thousand words are, I think you
sometimes have to write fifteen thousand. The key to writing
is not the writing, it's the rewriting.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And he taught you that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
He told me the importance of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
So when you think about supporting the greatness of the
works that you've put out over the last forty years,
a simple high school teacher and a conversation you had
with a guy on the home for two hours, Yeah,
which speaks to the power of an army in Normal
Folks maybe you don't even think of and those people
(13:09):
probably do. You think those people even have any idea
of the depth of effect they know?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And I'm told I told doctor Burke, I have probably
fifty times in the nearly half centuries since then. Boggo's
my mind about his influence. I don't know if these
people him or others really take that in because you
can hear that line, but what does it really mean?
They're there as teachers I think somewhere a registers, I
hope because I know other people similarly affected by him
(13:37):
as well.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's phenomenal. And now a few messages from our gener sponsors.
But first I hope you'll consider signing up to join
the army at normal Folks dot us. By signing up,
you'll receive a weekly email with short episodes summaries in
case you happen to miss an episode or if you
(13:58):
prefer reading about our incredible guess. We'll be right back. Okay,
so let's go to some of your past work before
(14:19):
we go to some really interesting stuff about some of
the people we've most recently wrote about. But Alex did
some research and he talked about sugar Ray Leonard and
Dave Jacobs, the trainer he had as a kid that
I think was nicknamed Jake. There was a volunteer at
(14:39):
a local recreation center. And as phenomenal as Sugar Ray
Leonard is, it feels like Sugar Ray Leonard doesn't become
Sugar Ray Leonard without Dave Jacobs.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, there's actually and there's three. There's three people. These
two others besides Gave at that time that had such
a profound influence on him. I just want to tell
you Dave was the city the amateur athletic featherweight title
champion in forty nine, Turnpro nineteen forty nine, won a
bunch of bouts, but boxing he realized was never going
to pay the bills, so he began volunteering at the
(15:11):
rec center, became the coach and cheers leader. And what
he used to do he used to bring Ray and
a bunch of others over to his house to show
filters of the greats like Jersey Joe Walcott and Willie
Pep and Sugar Ray Robinson. So Ray learned who great
fighters were through Dave Jacobs. So that was one person.
Another guy named peppi Korea and I want to read this.
(15:32):
This is really interesting because just because we're in Memphis,
I'm going to read from the book. I constantly marveled
at his ability to recite verbatim doctor King's I have
a dream speech with remarkable passion in each syllable, and
that had a big influence on Ray understanding doctor King.
I understand understanding who he was as an African Americans.
(15:53):
So that's the second person at that point in Ray's life.
Another guy was named jenks Morton, who had wanted to
play in the NFL but wasn't good enough, started an
insurance agency in the Washington area, and it was with Jake.
With him, it wasn't the amount of push ups or
sit ups or jumping rope. In his opinion, the only
(16:13):
way to be among the best was to show more
desire than your opponent. And that's what Ray learned. He
just had an incredible desire and never stopped. He had
these three people that nobody's really heard of or not
many have heard of, and they formed the backbone of
Ray's career.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
When one of the coolest things about what you do
for a living is you get to spend time with
these cool people. You get to spend time with Phil Jackson.
You could just spend time with Scottie Pippen. You get
access in a very intimate way with people because you're
(16:49):
writing their stories, so you have to mine in to
not only understand their stories, but oftentimes the why absolutely
and the who behind their story. When when people like
Sugar Ray are talking about Peppe Korea and James Morton
(17:10):
and Dave Jacobs, does their affect change Do you see
a level of reverence? Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, because no matter how famous they are, they haven't
lost sight of who they were before they became famous.
It's very important to be in touch with that. And
we'll get the Scottie Pippen in a while too. It's
same thing. They recognize why they're there, and they recognize
the people that put them there. And there's not one
person I've ever profiled and been around with not had
(17:41):
that impact of a normalfolk person, There's no question about it.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Which has to speak to all of you listening to
our voice right now. You don't have to be famous,
you don't have to be part of some massive organization,
you don't have to start incredible five OHO one C
three The interaction you have on a daily basis with
(18:06):
somebody you may never you may you may have no
idea the impact of the void that you're filling or
the need that you're filling, and that may not manifest
itself for fifteen, twenty thirty years later. But the point is,
every single day we have an opportunity, as just normal
(18:27):
folks when we see areas of need and fill them,
when we see when we see want and desire and
help satisfy it. Oftentimes the measure of our success may
reveal itself decades later, but it doesn't make it any
less profound.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And I also think that's when people veer off too,
is when they lose sight of that, when they lose
what do you mean by that? What I mean is
when they become when they become maybe full of themselves,
maybe become too arrogant, go off into different directions, was
that discipline, lose that character that formed who they were,
that's crucial. That that can be devastating. I've seen too
(19:07):
many athletes who have just gone off the reservation because
they have forgot the values and the normal people that
helped put him their family, friends, coaches, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
That's a good segue. Scottie Pippen talks with reverence about
his mom and his brother. And his brother. For those
who don't know, I think is a quadriplegic or paraplegic.
His brother, I think got into a fight and didn't
walk again. Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Well, I'll read. I'll tell you exactly what happened. He
was in gym class and some guy just Scotty's brother.
Scotty's brother, Ronnie was in gym class and Scotty was
only three when it happened. Out of nowhere, this bully
just delivered a sucker punch in the middle of his
brother's back. Brother. His brother fell to the floor, unable
to get up, and he sent the hospital. Everything went
(20:01):
on and basically never really got that. We was able
to do some things, but never got anywhere better. I
want to read to something that Scotti wrote. He goes
Ronnie had every right to give up to curse the
fate he was handed. He didn't. He fought hard to
build a protective, productive and happy life. I'm not the
biggest success story in the Pippin family. He is, and.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Everybody knows who Scottie Pippins and nobody knows who Ronnie is. Correct,
But Ronnie's strength clearly provide an illustration to Scotty about
how to be success.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Absolutely, And when I hear you talked about the change
and the voice, I think a little bit about when
they talk with the yeah, the effect, you know, it's
just like the veil comes up. I mean, Scotty gets
very emotional talking about ro You can see it. And
whether it's about Ronnie or his mother, I'll get to
that in a second, and it's like he's brought back
to that moment right there with them.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
That. You know, that's interesting because you got the six',
nine massive human being who's got how many championship? Rings six,
six who's made millions and, millions who's really been on a.
Pedestal it has to be interesting to watch all of
(21:18):
that melt off of this mammoth human being and watch
him get reminiscent and emotional and almost childlike when.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Talking those moments are what makes writing books mean everything to,
me because to see that somebody famous be somebody, real
and to see them show emotion and understanding of their
journey and what moves them away from so many athletes
these days assume a certain PERSONA i don't even want
to interview them, anymore because you can just tell the
(21:51):
cliches are going to, come the. Distancing they don't relate to.
You but when you spend time with someone or the
course of a, book they get down into sort of
down to earth with, you really telling you candid, things
and they get. Vulnerable the key to a successful book
is getting somebody to be.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Vulnerable how seriously do you take the charge to make
sure that vulnerability comes across the words to the. Reader
what do you mean if you don't successfully write it
in a way that the reader understands how how very
(22:29):
real and vulnerable that, is then it's a.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Miss, well you, know this is so weird because WHEN
i write with somebody and take on their, voice sounds,
crazy BUT i try to assume their. CARRIACTER i tried
to feel Like i'm, them which can get too far at.
Times BUT i try to take on the persona SO
i in some WAY i tap into my own. Vulnerability
so IF i can do, that THEN i can write
(22:53):
in their, own their own words their. Vulnerability you get.
Emotional oh, YEAH i mean one of the stories in
The Sugar Ray lenar. Book i'm not sure how many
are familiar with. It but he was sexually abused when
he was, young, okay.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
AND i had no. Idea, yeah AND.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I didn't know, that oh, yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah AND
i didn't know about this for like the first four
or five months we worked on the, book you, know
and then one day he just told, me AND i
remember leaving his house and driving about two blocks and
parking and just. CRYING i was so moved by it
(23:31):
because BECAUSE i also happened with you. TOO i, mean
you feel like you have to develop this sense of
ownership or. PROTECTING i, mean HERE'S i, am, this you,
know relatively small guy dealing with these huge, athletes and
YET i FEEL i have to assume the role of
the protector because their words are going to be out,
there they're going to be, assessed they're going to be, analyzed,
(23:51):
reviewed AND i want to make sure they come across
factual and fair and. Honest and SO i start to think, of,
well what they say is they're going to be is
how is it going to come? Across and they're not
always so on top of how to protect, themselves believe
it or. Not so that's one of my big.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Jobs we'll be right.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Back scotti's Mom scotty's. Mom this is another. Story it
wasn't around. That it wasn't too long afterwards when When
(24:31):
scotty's father was sitting on the sofa having dinner and
then suddenly he just dropped his plate slump toward the
edge of the. Sofa there was a deranged look in his.
Eyes he was food coming out of his. Mouth he
was having a stroke on the right side of his,
body and from then on he would never be able
to walk or really speak. Again he could say yes or,
no but he really couldn't put together a full. Sense
(24:53):
so think of it about, THIS i think Is Scottie pippens's.
BACKGROUND a brother who has an, accident who can't, walk
a father then who has a, stroke who can't.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Walk he has a big, family and these are not
wealthy people they're living and where In, Arkansas, Hamburg, arkansas And, Berg. Arkansas,
no not wealthy.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
People so there was a lot of criticism over the
time When The Last dance came, out the documentary That
Michael jordan and the book did basically about The bulls
and their, titles and there was. Criticism there has been
criticism Of scotty for sort of his contract demands and
how he viewed what he what he wanted from the
bulls and there's AND i look at people and wanted to,
(25:32):
say look at look what he went, Through look what
he came. FROM i understand it. Totally so was. Mom,
yeah so his mom was just. Unbelievable she just was
always there for, him always there for her. Father she
just knew how to show. STRENGTH i think he learned
learned strength and she learned strength from her. Mother in,
FACT i love. This the word on the street Was
(25:54):
grandma could work hard as hard as any. Man perhaps
it was from growing up in an Arwarin black folks
in The south didn't complain about their. Fate they simply
accepted whatever The Good lord gave them and did their
best to improve their circumstances one day at a. Time
and his, Mom scotty's mom grew up In louisiana picking
cotton with her mama when she was a little, girl
and from her he learned about the work. Ethic, basically.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
She was stricter with me than she was with my
brothers and. Sisters they didn't have to go To sunday
school in church LIKE i. DID i resented. It feeling is,
THIS i was being punished by having to sing hymns
and listen to SERMONS i didn't understand while my friends
were out. Playing looking, BACK i couldn't be more. Grateful
The lord is a powerful presence in my life today
(26:40):
and that's because of my.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Mom thank you for reading. That, yes, absolutely, yeah pretty.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Phenomenal yeah. Yeah so as you go through you think
About Sugar Ray, leonard you think about, you you think
About Scottie, pippen all of these people who've reached these
levels of. Greatness there's just no way the level of
greatness they've attained don't happen without this army of normal
(27:06):
folks in their lives that supported them along the.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Way and that's Why i'm so glad you're turning this
podcast in general as, well BECAUSE i think as you
get more, successful you start to think that you can
only rely on other successful people for these lessons in.
Life and that's such bs because the best lessons always
come from Those, again the normal, people who their names
are not in Light so, okay we don't know who they,
(27:30):
are AND i don't think you can stress that.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Enough, basically now it's time to. Plug on top of
What michael said don't you have some social media thing
of words of wisdom from normal people or normal folks.
Wisdom so On instagram we have a thing called normal
Folks wisdom that our guests that say something wise that
would be like a quote in a book if they're,
famous he now posts them on social. Media, Right so
(27:56):
anybody who wants to hear normal folks wisdom just.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Go to what they often have better wisdom than the.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Experts that's. It that's.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
GREAT i love.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That it is. Great, okay so his latest, release and
we are going to stay on the topic of supporting
greatness with the, people some of the people in the.
Book BUT i think it's important to set up the
Book The golf one, hundred the spirited ranking of the
greatest players of all. Time any time we, rank all
(28:26):
my friends argue, about you, know is would you rather
Have Michael jordan Or Lakers Kobe kobe or a Chem
elaijuan Versus. SHACK i, mean sports fans throughout, history, regardless
support always. Rank Was marino better than alway that the
(28:47):
fact That marino doesn't have A Super bowl wing make
him less important Than Terry. Bradshaw we always want to.
Rank it's just the way we.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Do lebron is the one more fitting Than kobe in that. Argument,
yeah that's what you.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Say we're arguing about. It so, then in your infinite,
wisdom you go write a book that nobody's ever going
to agree. WITH i love.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
IT i don't want people to agree with. ME i
want people to. ARGUE i want people to present their. Case.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah so you go through over the course of three
years and research thousands of. Golfers and one of the
beautiful things about this book is you don't care if
they're male or. Female, no thousands of golfers and you
start ranking. Them and, then in True MICHAEL. R kush,
fashion you're not just going to rank them and talk about.
(29:35):
Them you want to go interview them and their. Families
so it's not just a. Ranking each ranking of one
hundred is a profile of these people where you go
talk to them and study them and do the history
that you learned from your teacher in high.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
School, yeah WHICH i think IF i kind of my,
WAY i would never finish the. Book, actually you, KNOW.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I think your publisher what you. Finish, yeah that's sort
of the idea behind. It, yeah WHAT i find vastly.
Interesting before we get into, people BECAUSE i want people
to understand the work that went under those is you're
not just talking about these people as if you read about,
them you've actually interviewed them or their. Families, yes, yeah all,
right but you also, SAID i don't want to be
(30:18):
too arbitrary in my, ranking so you came up with a.
System explain. That, okay all.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Right first of, all in terms of the, research, YES
i did not have a life in these three.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Years.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
OKAY i went back AND i read through Every Golf
dies issue since nineteen fifty. What, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
There read Every Golf dides issue for the last.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That is now THAT i was on, YouTube AND i
think there was a missing person report issued on me
WHEN i went to, YouTube because BECAUSE i basically dived
in and did not get. Out it's the rabbit hole
of rabbit, HOLES i. Think AND i. READ i watched
every single major TELECAST i could find of every television you,
(31:05):
know tournament they've. Had SO i did. THAT i had
one hundred, books at least friends of mine gave me
books to go, through SO i, Did, hey you know
what this fear. Was the fear was who DO i
leave out? Here? Right so? Far the book's been now three.
Weeks i've not heard from anyone not left. OUT i
have heard this, morning you heard twice the same. Name,
yeah that was a joke though The memphis radio hits
(31:27):
he did this. Morning they both Where's John?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Daily Where's John?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Daily, NO i meant SOME i didn't Mean John. Dailey
he's not a. Joke somebody. Else they mentioned that that
person who plays with The, no, no, no nobody you've
Heard John daily will get into.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
That, wait the ranking, first the, metric the, ranking all,
right the, metrics the.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Metrics two thousand points for every major, victory because majors
are what comprised greatness in.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Golf if anybody's watched the Documentary Full swing is a
full swing that's been. Out, yeah you don't even have
to be a golfer to get into, that but you
can tell amongst the golfers. Majors is it? Today?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, yeah four times a, year two thousand points for
every major, victory five hundred per, second two fifty, third
one hundred, fourth and fifty. FIFTH i also ordered three
hundred points for every regular tour, victory BUT i didn't
count if a guy finished third in The John Deere
classic by shooting a sixty five On. Sunday to, me
that's not about. GREATNESS i didn't count senior tour. Victories
(32:27):
that's not about. GREATNESS i didn't count The Ryder cup
because that came along much. Later and what about the
players didn't get a chance to play in The Ryder.
CUP i also gave bonus points to contribution to the,
game impact on the, game and vrieting of other. Factors
so that's the outlines of the metric. SYSTEM i have a,
question by the, way one other. THING i took away
points for players who had won a number of tour,
(32:49):
victories but no majors you. TOOK i took await, points
AND i thought to, Myself, yeah that feels, Right and
it came Down my publisher kept telling, me AND i
finally realized my, book my, rules in.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
My book By. Rules if you don't like, it write
your own.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Day. Yeah, ABSOLUTELY i spent nine months with. You, yes, SIR.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I have to ask this, question uh, oh because it's
not part of the METRIC u oh that you've. Described
you are so big on honesty and integrity and. Character,
yeah did you allow yourself to be dissuaded by horrible?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Behavior not, really because then you're opening up a whole
other series of. Problems, however in the chapter On Tiger,
WOODS i did point out the, scandal AND i do
believe that that whole thing takes away from some of his. Greatness, yes.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And that concludes part one of my conversation With michael
Ar kush and you don't want to miss part two
that's now be able to listen. To, Together, guys we
can change this country and it starts with. You i'll
see you in part.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Two look
That's why I'm so glad you're tuning this podcast in
general as well, because I think as you get more successful,
you start to think that you can only rely on
other successful people for these lessons in life. And that's
such bs because the best lessons always come from those. Again,
the normal people who names are not in light, so okay,
we don't know who they are, and I don't think
(00:24):
you can stress that or not.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in
Inner City Memphis. And the last part it somehow led
to an oscar for the film about our team. That
movie's called Undefeated. Y'all. I just believe our country's problems
(00:51):
are just not ever going to be solved by a
bunch of fancy people and nice clothes using big words
that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather
by us, an army of normal folks. That's just you
and me seeing an area of need and deciding, hey,
maybe I can help. And today we have a new
(01:12):
edition of our special series Supporting Greatness, where we typically
interview those who've achieved public greatness about their own army
of normal folks that supported them and shaped their lives.
But this time we're interviewing award winning sportswriter Michael Rkoush,
who's written books with Scottie Pippen, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Phil Jackson,
(01:38):
and many others. In his most recent book about the
top one hundred golfers in history, Michael will celebrate each
of their army of normal folks that supported them to
make it on this list. I cannot wait for you
meet write after these brief messages from our general sponsors.
(02:10):
Michael Arkoush, Welcome to Memphis.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It's great to be here, is it? Oh man? I
love it last time ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
That's crazy that it's been ten years since you've been
in Memphis, given that you've spent about ten months here
during that ten year period ago. Yeah, it does everybody.
Michael Arkoush first and foremost is my friend. But he's
certainly not known for being my friend. What he is
is an incredible writer. He's a sportswriter. I think you've
(02:40):
written for golf, DIJA. What are the magazines?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Golf Magazine, Golf digest golf world. Yeah, and wrote the
Only Times, New York Times, Washing Post, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Washing and Post pretty much everybody yeah yeah. And he
is also an author of Sugar Ray Leonard's book, and
Phil Jackson's book and Scottie Pippens book and Ray Allen's book.
And Kurt menifies, Yes, I did a book with him. Yes, yeah,
see I remember that. You got it. You know me
more than I do some other books. I don't know
(03:09):
what are some other books.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I did a book about golfers and their fathers who
inspired them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, that kind of thing I do.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The first book I did sixty years of usc UCLA.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Football, which who wants to read that?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
So anyway, that's that's what we found out.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yes, didn't sell too well. So Mike Arkush is my friend.
He's a gifted writer, and he has just released his
latest piece of work called The Golf one hundred, a
subtitled A spirited ranking of the greatest players of all Time.
And it is a book that is to elicit argument,
(03:49):
but we're going to get into that later. I also
want to say that as impressive as Michael's resume is
that paul Etta, his wife, is the far superior of
the couple.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
No question about it. What's your line about coverage?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, you outkicked your coverage if you absolutely kich you.
Pauletta has worked in the Foreign Service in places like
Russia and Ukraine and DC and is an incredible woman
in her own right, and you way out kicked your consolutely.
So that's who Michael is in a professional personal sense.
(04:28):
As a snapshot before we get started, I want you
guys know if you're here at the end, we will
have a Q and A at the end of this
for any of you who want to ask any questions
of Michael. We are today in the Memphis Listening Lab
and the cool Crosstown Concourse and Memphis, and Michael flew
(04:49):
in last night, I guess from Santa Barbarad and yep, yep,
flew in last night to join us. Before we get
going for those listening, we will have a live in
on May eighth. That will be our next live interview.
It is going to be with nine to eleven firefighter
Tim Brown. Tim saved fifteen lives on that faithful day
(05:12):
while losing one hundred friends. His story is unbelievable. He
doesn't see himself as a hero and what he has
to teach us about the power of an army of
normal folks is phenomenal. So May eighth at six point
thirty at grind City Brewing. To learn more, you can
RSVP and find out more at one hundred friends dot
(05:37):
event bright dot com. I hope you will join us,
and I hope those listening will join us. So we've
set up who Michael is, but we're not interviewing Michael
for an army of normal folks really, because he's kind
of reached some heights that most normal folks don't. However,
(05:57):
as many of you longtime listeners will know, on occasion
we do a special segment called Supporting Greatness, and the
Supporting Greatness series is where we interview folks who've achieved
public greatness, but we interview them about their own army
of normal folks who supported, inspired and helped shape their lives,
(06:20):
so that we get to celebrate the army of normal
folks in people who've reached greatness who we don't know about.
For this series, we've interviewed people like Mike Row from
Dirty Jobs, the author of The Shack, Paul Young, and
Medal of Honor recipients to Coda Meyer and David Bellavia.
So you were in high company. In Michael's case, we're
(06:43):
interviewing him. We're going to talk a couple about a
couple of people in your life. And then also interestingly,
as a guy who's done so much biographical work and
done so much content, but we're going to let Michael
share with us stories about normal folks in the lives
of people who supported greatness, like folks like Sugarray Leonard
(07:08):
and Scottie Pippen. And then we're going to get on
some of these golfers that have some extraordinary stories in
the golf one hundred and actually how you learn those stories.
So that's it. So to start us, kind of tell
us where you came from and how you grew up.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Albany, New York, the capital of the Great State of
New York, was a great place to grow up. Close
to New York City and close to Boston would shape
me and who I am really is. My father died
when I was young. I was only twelve years old.
He died of Louke Garrit's disease. It's a really horrible
time in our life, and I'll talk about it later.
(07:45):
But my uncle and aunt introduced me to golf. It
was this way to getting away from the tragedy of
what happened at home. It was incredibly helpful. But the
influence on my life, the early influence of my life,
is a guy named doctor Stephen Burke. He's a history
professor at Union College and connected in New York. And
he taught me the value and the beauty of history
(08:05):
in such a profound way. I mean, I was not
a great student before then. I was a terrible student.
Am I saying not a great student?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I was awful?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
But he he made me care about learning. He made
me passionate about it to an unbel unbelievable degree. And
I remember the first time I got an a minus
in his exam, I felt like I had conquered the world.
And he taught me European history, Russian history, Jewish history,
and this is my high school. He was only thirty
six years old at the time. He's now eighty four,
(08:36):
and I still consult with him, talk to him once
or twice every couple months or so, let's say, and
we talk about the election, we talk about everything going
on in America. Is an unbelievable resource. And I'm just
so lucky. I've had somebody like that in my life,
somebody who was an authority on his subject like that
who made me care. And it extended way beyond. It
(08:58):
extended to sports history, and it is every aspect of
history and knowledge. And I never thought that knowledge was
such a beautiful thing to obtain, as when when I
studied with him. He remember at my high school graduation,
he stood up there and he gave the speech and
he said, I don't have a panacea for all of you.
I don't have a cure. I can't give you the
(09:19):
key to success in life. But what he didn't realize
that he had given me the key already, and I've
held on to that forever. So I'm grateful to him.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Would you be a writer for one for him?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I don't know. I know that when I was in
school in sixth or seventh grade, I used to have
a textbook and in between me and the textbook was
a notebook, and the teacher thought I was taking notes
when I was writing stories.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So it's always been.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It's always been there. It's always been part of my sickness.
And I wrote a story once about a guy who
was a fighter against a Boxer. It was sort of
a preview of the book I would write forty years later,
and I didn't know it at the time see about
Ali and Frasier. But I had all these I don't
know what happened to those notes. I think if they
went the way of my baseball cards, I.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Think it could be argued then because of the perspective
of history and what he taught you, you wouldn't have
done nearly as an.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Effective Absolutely, absolutely, I know.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
From personal experience with you, because you're irritating as hell
and proud of it. Yeah, you will research to the
nth degree before you put a word in a book.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
That has to come from.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Him, Yeah, Yeah, it does because there were so many
facts that we learned from him about all history.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
If I did not have it right factually, I mean
I was not getting an aa B. I was getting
much worse.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Absolutely. Yeah. Who else?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay. One of the person I only spoke to once
in my entire life, really for two hours, a guy
named David Halberstam. Maybe you recognize his great author is
God powers it be best in the brightest all these
was a correspondent for The New York Times. Vietnam I mean,
I think to the point that Kennedy tried to get
him out of the job because he was so on
(11:06):
top of what was going on with our failure in Vietnam.
Really even early on, and my editor at the time
I was working on a book with Phil Jackson. My
editor said, would you like to talk to Halberstam? Are
you kidding me? This is like one of my heroes.
And we were on the phone for two hours and
he told me the whole secret to writing books, which
was when you're writing a magazine article or a newspaper article,
(11:28):
in your mind all the time is how do I
boil this down? How do I go from thousand words
to seven hundred words and six words? How do I
keep it down? In books, it's like an according just
keep expanding, and the idea that you could write anything
you want, just keep it longer, just because you can
always edit later. In the Ali Fraser book, I did
(11:48):
a chapter on Jerry Corey. I don't know how many
you remember the fighter Jerry Corey. Muhammad Ali's first fight
after he was suspended was against Jerry Corey in Atlanta
in October nineteen seventy. I went up in Bakersfield, California,
and I met the Corey family, spent like a whole
day with them, came back. I spent the next two
weeks and I wrote fifteen thousand words about the Corey family. Okay,
(12:10):
what the heck was I doing? This is a book
about Ali and Fraser. It's supposed to be like sixty
or seventy thousand words, and I'm writing fifteen thousand words.
I couldn't stop myself. Seriously, I just was like some
kind of tick or something. I just had to keep going.
Eventually I turned it down to about three thousand. And
when you're sitting there a computer and cutting down twelve
eleven twelve thousand words is not easy. But to get
(12:31):
to what those three thousand words are, I think you
sometimes have to write fifteen thousand. The key to writing
is not the writing, it's the rewriting.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And he taught you that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
He told me the importance of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
So when you think about supporting the greatness of the
works that you've put out over the last forty years,
a simple high school teacher and a conversation you had
with a guy on the home for two hours, Yeah,
which speaks to the power of an army in Normal
Folks maybe you don't even think of and those people
(13:09):
probably do. You think those people even have any idea
of the depth of effect they know?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And I'm told I told doctor Burke, I have probably
fifty times in the nearly half centuries since then. Boggo's
my mind about his influence. I don't know if these
people him or others really take that in because you
can hear that line, but what does it really mean?
They're there as teachers I think somewhere a registers, I
hope because I know other people similarly affected by him
(13:37):
as well.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's phenomenal. And now a few messages from our gener sponsors.
But first I hope you'll consider signing up to join
the army at normal Folks dot us. By signing up,
you'll receive a weekly email with short episodes summaries in
case you happen to miss an episode or if you
(13:58):
prefer reading about our incredible guess. We'll be right back. Okay,
so let's go to some of your past work before
(14:19):
we go to some really interesting stuff about some of
the people we've most recently wrote about. But Alex did
some research and he talked about sugar Ray Leonard and
Dave Jacobs, the trainer he had as a kid that
I think was nicknamed Jake. There was a volunteer at
(14:39):
a local recreation center. And as phenomenal as Sugar Ray
Leonard is, it feels like Sugar Ray Leonard doesn't become
Sugar Ray Leonard without Dave Jacobs.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, there's actually and there's three. There's three people. These
two others besides Gave at that time that had such
a profound influence on him. I just want to tell
you Dave was the city the amateur athletic featherweight title
champion in forty nine, Turnpro nineteen forty nine, won a
bunch of bouts, but boxing he realized was never going
to pay the bills, so he began volunteering at the
(15:11):
rec center, became the coach and cheers leader. And what
he used to do he used to bring Ray and
a bunch of others over to his house to show
filters of the greats like Jersey Joe Walcott and Willie
Pep and Sugar Ray Robinson. So Ray learned who great
fighters were through Dave Jacobs. So that was one person.
Another guy named peppi Korea and I want to read this.
(15:32):
This is really interesting because just because we're in Memphis,
I'm going to read from the book. I constantly marveled
at his ability to recite verbatim doctor King's I have
a dream speech with remarkable passion in each syllable, and
that had a big influence on Ray understanding doctor King.
I understand understanding who he was as an African Americans.
(15:53):
So that's the second person at that point in Ray's life.
Another guy was named jenks Morton, who had wanted to
play in the NFL but wasn't good enough, started an
insurance agency in the Washington area, and it was with Jake.
With him, it wasn't the amount of push ups or
sit ups or jumping rope. In his opinion, the only
(16:13):
way to be among the best was to show more
desire than your opponent. And that's what Ray learned. He
just had an incredible desire and never stopped. He had
these three people that nobody's really heard of or not
many have heard of, and they formed the backbone of
Ray's career.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
When one of the coolest things about what you do
for a living is you get to spend time with
these cool people. You get to spend time with Phil Jackson.
You could just spend time with Scottie Pippen. You get
access in a very intimate way with people because you're
(16:49):
writing their stories, so you have to mine in to
not only understand their stories, but oftentimes the why absolutely
and the who behind their story. When when people like
Sugar Ray are talking about Peppe Korea and James Morton
(17:10):
and Dave Jacobs, does their affect change Do you see
a level of reverence? Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, because no matter how famous they are, they haven't
lost sight of who they were before they became famous.
It's very important to be in touch with that. And
we'll get the Scottie Pippen in a while too. It's
same thing. They recognize why they're there, and they recognize
the people that put them there. And there's not one
person I've ever profiled and been around with not had
(17:41):
that impact of a normalfolk person, There's no question about it.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Which has to speak to all of you listening to
our voice right now. You don't have to be famous,
you don't have to be part of some massive organization,
you don't have to start incredible five OHO one C
three The interaction you have on a daily basis with
(18:06):
somebody you may never you may you may have no
idea the impact of the void that you're filling or
the need that you're filling, and that may not manifest
itself for fifteen, twenty thirty years later. But the point is,
every single day we have an opportunity, as just normal
(18:27):
folks when we see areas of need and fill them,
when we see when we see want and desire and
help satisfy it. Oftentimes the measure of our success may
reveal itself decades later, but it doesn't make it any
less profound.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And I also think that's when people veer off too,
is when they lose sight of that, when they lose
what do you mean by that? What I mean is
when they become when they become maybe full of themselves,
maybe become too arrogant, go off into different directions, was
that discipline, lose that character that formed who they were,
that's crucial. That that can be devastating. I've seen too
(19:07):
many athletes who have just gone off the reservation because
they have forgot the values and the normal people that
helped put him their family, friends, coaches, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
That's a good segue. Scottie Pippen talks with reverence about
his mom and his brother. And his brother. For those
who don't know, I think is a quadriplegic or paraplegic.
His brother, I think got into a fight and didn't
walk again. Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Well, I'll read. I'll tell you exactly what happened. He
was in gym class and some guy just Scotty's brother.
Scotty's brother, Ronnie was in gym class and Scotty was
only three when it happened. Out of nowhere, this bully
just delivered a sucker punch in the middle of his
brother's back. Brother. His brother fell to the floor, unable
to get up, and he sent the hospital. Everything went
(20:01):
on and basically never really got that. We was able
to do some things, but never got anywhere better. I
want to read to something that Scotti wrote. He goes
Ronnie had every right to give up to curse the
fate he was handed. He didn't. He fought hard to
build a protective, productive and happy life. I'm not the
biggest success story in the Pippin family. He is, and.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Everybody knows who Scottie Pippins and nobody knows who Ronnie is. Correct,
But Ronnie's strength clearly provide an illustration to Scotty about
how to be success.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Absolutely, And when I hear you talked about the change
and the voice, I think a little bit about when
they talk with the yeah, the effect, you know, it's
just like the veil comes up. I mean, Scotty gets
very emotional talking about ro You can see it. And
whether it's about Ronnie or his mother, I'll get to
that in a second, and it's like he's brought back
to that moment right there with them.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
That. You know, that's interesting because you got the six',
nine massive human being who's got how many championship? Rings six,
six who's made millions and, millions who's really been on a.
Pedestal it has to be interesting to watch all of
(21:18):
that melt off of this mammoth human being and watch
him get reminiscent and emotional and almost childlike when.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Talking those moments are what makes writing books mean everything to,
me because to see that somebody famous be somebody, real
and to see them show emotion and understanding of their
journey and what moves them away from so many athletes
these days assume a certain PERSONA i don't even want
to interview them, anymore because you can just tell the
(21:51):
cliches are going to, come the. Distancing they don't relate to.
You but when you spend time with someone or the
course of a, book they get down into sort of
down to earth with, you really telling you candid, things
and they get. Vulnerable the key to a successful book
is getting somebody to be.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Vulnerable how seriously do you take the charge to make
sure that vulnerability comes across the words to the. Reader
what do you mean if you don't successfully write it
in a way that the reader understands how how very
(22:29):
real and vulnerable that, is then it's a.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Miss, well you, know this is so weird because WHEN
i write with somebody and take on their, voice sounds,
crazy BUT i try to assume their. CARRIACTER i tried
to feel Like i'm, them which can get too far at.
Times BUT i try to take on the persona SO
i in some WAY i tap into my own. Vulnerability
so IF i can do, that THEN i can write
(22:53):
in their, own their own words their. Vulnerability you get.
Emotional oh, YEAH i mean one of the stories in
The Sugar Ray lenar. Book i'm not sure how many
are familiar with. It but he was sexually abused when
he was, young, okay.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
AND i had no. Idea, yeah AND.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I didn't know, that oh, yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah AND
i didn't know about this for like the first four
or five months we worked on the, book you, know
and then one day he just told, me AND i
remember leaving his house and driving about two blocks and
parking and just. CRYING i was so moved by it
(23:31):
because BECAUSE i also happened with you. TOO i, mean
you feel like you have to develop this sense of
ownership or. PROTECTING i, mean HERE'S i, am, this you,
know relatively small guy dealing with these huge, athletes and
YET i FEEL i have to assume the role of
the protector because their words are going to be out,
there they're going to be, assessed they're going to be, analyzed,
(23:51):
reviewed AND i want to make sure they come across
factual and fair and. Honest and SO i start to think, of,
well what they say is they're going to be is
how is it going to come? Across and they're not
always so on top of how to protect, themselves believe
it or. Not so that's one of my big.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Jobs we'll be right.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Back scotti's Mom scotty's. Mom this is another. Story it
wasn't around. That it wasn't too long afterwards when When
(24:31):
scotty's father was sitting on the sofa having dinner and
then suddenly he just dropped his plate slump toward the
edge of the. Sofa there was a deranged look in his.
Eyes he was food coming out of his. Mouth he
was having a stroke on the right side of his,
body and from then on he would never be able
to walk or really speak. Again he could say yes or,
no but he really couldn't put together a full. Sense
(24:53):
so think of it about, THIS i think Is Scottie pippens's.
BACKGROUND a brother who has an, accident who can't, walk
a father then who has a, stroke who can't.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Walk he has a big, family and these are not
wealthy people they're living and where In, Arkansas, Hamburg, arkansas And, Berg. Arkansas,
no not wealthy.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
People so there was a lot of criticism over the
time When The Last dance came, out the documentary That
Michael jordan and the book did basically about The bulls
and their, titles and there was. Criticism there has been
criticism Of scotty for sort of his contract demands and
how he viewed what he what he wanted from the
bulls and there's AND i look at people and wanted to,
(25:32):
say look at look what he went, Through look what
he came. FROM i understand it. Totally so was. Mom,
yeah so his mom was just. Unbelievable she just was
always there for, him always there for her. Father she
just knew how to show. STRENGTH i think he learned
learned strength and she learned strength from her. Mother in,
FACT i love. This the word on the street Was
(25:54):
grandma could work hard as hard as any. Man perhaps
it was from growing up in an Arwarin black folks
in The south didn't complain about their. Fate they simply
accepted whatever The Good lord gave them and did their
best to improve their circumstances one day at a. Time
and his, Mom scotty's mom grew up In louisiana picking
cotton with her mama when she was a little, girl
and from her he learned about the work. Ethic, basically.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
She was stricter with me than she was with my
brothers and. Sisters they didn't have to go To sunday
school in church LIKE i. DID i resented. It feeling is,
THIS i was being punished by having to sing hymns
and listen to SERMONS i didn't understand while my friends
were out. Playing looking, BACK i couldn't be more. Grateful
The lord is a powerful presence in my life today
(26:40):
and that's because of my.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Mom thank you for reading. That, yes, absolutely, yeah pretty.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Phenomenal yeah. Yeah so as you go through you think
About Sugar Ray, leonard you think about, you you think
About Scottie, pippen all of these people who've reached these
levels of. Greatness there's just no way the level of
greatness they've attained don't happen without this army of normal
(27:06):
folks in their lives that supported them along the.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Way and that's Why i'm so glad you're turning this
podcast in general as, well BECAUSE i think as you
get more, successful you start to think that you can
only rely on other successful people for these lessons in.
Life and that's such bs because the best lessons always
come from Those, again the normal, people who their names
are not in Light so, okay we don't know who they,
(27:30):
are AND i don't think you can stress that.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Enough, basically now it's time to. Plug on top of
What michael said don't you have some social media thing
of words of wisdom from normal people or normal folks.
Wisdom so On instagram we have a thing called normal
Folks wisdom that our guests that say something wise that
would be like a quote in a book if they're,
famous he now posts them on social. Media, Right so
(27:56):
anybody who wants to hear normal folks wisdom just.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Go to what they often have better wisdom than the.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Experts that's. It that's.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
GREAT i love.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That it is. Great, okay so his latest, release and
we are going to stay on the topic of supporting
greatness with the, people some of the people in the.
Book BUT i think it's important to set up the
Book The golf one, hundred the spirited ranking of the
greatest players of all. Time any time we, rank all
(28:26):
my friends argue, about you, know is would you rather
Have Michael jordan Or Lakers Kobe kobe or a Chem
elaijuan Versus. SHACK i, mean sports fans throughout, history, regardless
support always. Rank Was marino better than alway that the
(28:47):
fact That marino doesn't have A Super bowl wing make
him less important Than Terry. Bradshaw we always want to.
Rank it's just the way we.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Do lebron is the one more fitting Than kobe in that. Argument,
yeah that's what you.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Say we're arguing about. It so, then in your infinite,
wisdom you go write a book that nobody's ever going
to agree. WITH i love.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
IT i don't want people to agree with. ME i
want people to. ARGUE i want people to present their. Case.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah so you go through over the course of three
years and research thousands of. Golfers and one of the
beautiful things about this book is you don't care if
they're male or. Female, no thousands of golfers and you
start ranking. Them and, then in True MICHAEL. R kush,
fashion you're not just going to rank them and talk about.
(29:35):
Them you want to go interview them and their. Families
so it's not just a. Ranking each ranking of one
hundred is a profile of these people where you go
talk to them and study them and do the history
that you learned from your teacher in high.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
School, yeah WHICH i think IF i kind of my,
WAY i would never finish the. Book, actually you, KNOW.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I think your publisher what you. Finish, yeah that's sort
of the idea behind. It, yeah WHAT i find vastly.
Interesting before we get into, people BECAUSE i want people
to understand the work that went under those is you're
not just talking about these people as if you read about,
them you've actually interviewed them or their. Families, yes, yeah all,
right but you also, SAID i don't want to be
(30:18):
too arbitrary in my, ranking so you came up with a.
System explain. That, okay all.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Right first of, all in terms of the, research, YES
i did not have a life in these three.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Years.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
OKAY i went back AND i read through Every Golf
dies issue since nineteen fifty. What, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
There read Every Golf dides issue for the last.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That is now THAT i was on, YouTube AND i
think there was a missing person report issued on me
WHEN i went to, YouTube because BECAUSE i basically dived
in and did not get. Out it's the rabbit hole
of rabbit, HOLES i. Think AND i. READ i watched
every single major TELECAST i could find of every television you,
(31:05):
know tournament they've. Had SO i did. THAT i had
one hundred, books at least friends of mine gave me
books to go, through SO i, Did, hey you know
what this fear. Was the fear was who DO i
leave out? Here? Right so? Far the book's been now three.
Weeks i've not heard from anyone not left. OUT i
have heard this, morning you heard twice the same. Name,
yeah that was a joke though The memphis radio hits
(31:27):
he did this. Morning they both Where's John?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Daily Where's John?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Daily, NO i meant SOME i didn't Mean John. Dailey
he's not a. Joke somebody. Else they mentioned that that
person who plays with The, no, no, no nobody you've
Heard John daily will get into.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
That, wait the ranking, first the, metric the, ranking all,
right the, metrics the.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Metrics two thousand points for every major, victory because majors
are what comprised greatness in.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Golf if anybody's watched the Documentary Full swing is a
full swing that's been. Out, yeah you don't even have
to be a golfer to get into, that but you
can tell amongst the golfers. Majors is it? Today?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, yeah four times a, year two thousand points for
every major, victory five hundred per, second two fifty, third
one hundred, fourth and fifty. FIFTH i also ordered three
hundred points for every regular tour, victory BUT i didn't
count if a guy finished third in The John Deere
classic by shooting a sixty five On. Sunday to, me
that's not about. GREATNESS i didn't count senior tour. Victories
(32:27):
that's not about. GREATNESS i didn't count The Ryder cup
because that came along much. Later and what about the
players didn't get a chance to play in The Ryder.
CUP i also gave bonus points to contribution to the,
game impact on the, game and vrieting of other. Factors
so that's the outlines of the metric. SYSTEM i have a,
question by the, way one other. THING i took away
points for players who had won a number of tour,
(32:49):
victories but no majors you. TOOK i took await, points
AND i thought to, Myself, yeah that feels, Right and
it came Down my publisher kept telling, me AND i
finally realized my, book my, rules in.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
My book By. Rules if you don't like, it write
your own.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Day. Yeah, ABSOLUTELY i spent nine months with. You, yes, SIR.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I have to ask this, question uh, oh because it's
not part of the METRIC u oh that you've. Described
you are so big on honesty and integrity and. Character,
yeah did you allow yourself to be dissuaded by horrible?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Behavior not, really because then you're opening up a whole
other series of. Problems, however in the chapter On Tiger,
WOODS i did point out the, scandal AND i do
believe that that whole thing takes away from some of his. Greatness, yes.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And that concludes part one of my conversation With michael
Ar kush and you don't want to miss part two
that's now be able to listen. To, Together, guys we
can change this country and it starts with. You i'll
see you in part.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Two look
Host
Bill Courtney
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.