November 7, 2025 • 22 mins
For Shop Talk, we bring you fascinating data and wisdom from the righteous troublemakers known as Jonathan Haidt, Lenore Skenazy, and Zach Rausch.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Everybody. It's Bill Courtney. Welcome to the shop. Hi Alex.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey Bill, let's get into it this time. We don't
have much time.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
We do want to get into the shop. Talk.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Well, no, we got to talk about the shop. Oh man,
I mean I'm going to give you an extra two
minutes to talk about the shop. Shop talk number seventy seven.
What's the number, oh oc Brown from Undefeated? Oh really,
number seventy seven. There's something If.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
It wasn't for us, C, your life might have been different.
What's uh, It's actually interesting to think about it that way.
If it wasn't for USC, your life might have been different.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
But for a lot of kids, my life, you and
I wouldn't know each other.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, yeah, pretty crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's it all right? In the Atlantic, what kids told
us about how to get them off their phones? Children
who were raised on screens need more freedom out in
the real world.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
By I don't know, Thenarsknes, Lenorskansy it's Lenor'skanesy. Yeah, and
Jonathan hed and then what's the last guy's name, I
don't know, Zach Rosch Okay, yeah, ok, Raush probably, but yeah,
keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
All right, So here's the deal. Everybody. I already loved
this because just read it, I'm sick of kids on
their phones all the time. And do you know, do
you know, seriously, there's a pediatric study and I'm gonna
butcher this and I wish you would find this next time.
But it's like the number of broken bones and children
(01:35):
has decreased by like, I don't know, something like eighty
percent over the last two decades.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Earlier, we kind of riffed on that in the Vanessa
Lias interview, but we didn't talk about the data.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
But it's something like eighty percent. Huh. And that sounds great, right,
because you know, who wants to break a bunch of kids' bones?
But actually it leads to more problems down the road
because kids' bones are stronger from all the exercises of
stuff they got because they're fat eating twinkies, by devices
(02:09):
that we as parents give them.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
And more importantly, what it means is you're not taking risks.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, that's a good point too. Yeah, So anyway, we're
going to talk about this stuff right after these brief
messages from our center sponsors. All right, everybody, welcome back.
(02:41):
What kids told us about how to get them off
their phones. So we're always trying to talk about a
well as usual, why don't we go to the source
and ask them? So apparently we're going to learn what
kids told us about how to get them off their phones.
Children who were raised on screens need more freedom out
in the real world. Even read the thing yet, But
(03:01):
I'm just going to paraphrase here. Quit being helicopter parents, Okay.
One common explanation for why children spend so much of
their free time on screens goes like this, smartphones and
social media platforms are addicting them. Kids stare at their
devices and socialize online instead of in person because that's
what tech has trained them to want. Boy, that's paraphrases
(03:24):
basically what a lot of people think and believe. But
this misses a key part of the story. The three
of us. These three of us writers are.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Leonora Narsknesi, Jonathan Hayden, Zack Ross.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
All Right, these three people collaborated with the Hair's Poll
to survey a group of Americans whose perspectives don't often
show up in national data. Kids. What they told us
offers a comprehensive picture of how American childhood is changing, and,
most importantly, how to make it better. In March, the
(04:00):
poll surveyed more than five hundred kids ages eight to
twelve across the United States, who were assured that their
answers would remain private. The kids didn't want their parents
to know. That's funny. They offered unmistakable evidence that the
phone based childhood is in full force. A majority reported
having smartphones, and about half of the ten to twelve
(04:22):
year olds said that most or all of their friends
use social media. How old are your kids?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So? My oldest too, that this is relevant for are
ten and eleven?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, And I've refused to let them have horphones, but
most of their friends do.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I Georgie six, all.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Right, so six, oh geez, six, eight, ten, and eleven.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I mean three of them are in the focus group. Yeah, yeah,
do your kids have smartphones? When? How old will they be?
How old will they be when you let them have them?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I mean at least fourteen?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, Yeah, anyway, going, I want you to we've ripped on.
I don't want us to complain about the topic too much.
There's fascinating stuff in here to get into, all right.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I'll keep going. All right, So about half of the
ten to twelve year old said that most of all
their friends use social media. This digital technology has given
kids access to virtual worlds where they're allowed to roam
far more freely than in the real one. About seventy
five percent of kids a change.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Think about that for a second, though, I know it
isn't that a wild I've never even thought of it.
That's such a good line.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
The digital technology has given kids access to virtual worlds
where they're allowed to roam far more freely than the
real one. The point is, I don't know if that
line is indicative of a good thing or a bad thing.
I would say a bad thing for Kidsy's age. About
seventy five percent of kids ages nine through twelve regularly
play the online game Robologues, where they can interact with
(05:55):
friends and even strangers, but most of the children are
surveys said they aren't allowed to be out in public
at all without an adult. There you go. Most of
the kids survey can't walk around in public without an
adult because parents want to protect them, but then they
pay for it, give them advice and give them access
(06:17):
to room the world with strangers, many of whom are
grown creeps trying to do things with your children. Just
remember that fewer than half of the eight to nine
year olds have gone down a grocery store all alone.
More than quarter aren't allowed to play unsupervised, even though
(06:37):
on front yard, but yet they can roam around virtually
in this world. These are the exact kinds of freedoms
that kids told us they long for. We ask them
to pick their favorite way to spend time with friends,
unstructured play such as shooting hoops and exploring their neighborhoods,
participating in activities organized by adults, just playing Little League
(07:01):
and doing ballet, or socializing online. There was a clear winner.
An image of a graph showing responses to the question
how would you rather spend time with friends? Forty five
percent of the respondents said free play in person, thirty
percent said organized activity in person, and only twenty five
(07:21):
percent said online activity. Children want to meet up in person,
no screens or supervision, but because so many parents restrict
their ability to socialize in the real world on their own,
kids resort to the one thing that allows them to
hang out with no adults hovering their phones. Since the eighties,
parents have grown more and more afraid that unsupervised time
(07:44):
will expose their kids to physical or emotional harm. In
another recent Hairs poll, we asked parents what they thought
would happen if two ten year olds played in a
local part without adults. A realm sixty percent thought that
children would likely get injured. Half though they would likely
get have be ducted. I'm sorry for laughing, but good
(08:07):
grief ten year olds. When I was ten, I roamed everywhere,
and yeah, I might have gotten hurt or something, but
I mean, it wasn't anything sustain in.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
The reality is most kids are in towns like I'm
in an Oxford that are really safe.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, roam, Oh, here we go. We're about to put
some data on what I just said. These intuitions don't
even begin to resimble reality. According to the Warwick Carns,
the author of How to Live Dangerously, kidnapping the United
States is so rare that a child would have to
be outside unsupervised on average seven hundred and fifty thousand
(08:47):
years before being snatched by a stranger.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I don't know who'd want to kidnap my kids?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Good luck, Yeah, that's right. There's a couple of my
kids you'd probably kidnap and bring back. Just say here,
I don't want anything to take them. But listen to that.
Kidnapping is so rare that a child would have to
be outside unsupervised for on average seven hundred and fifty
thousand years before being snatched. Parents know their neighborhood best,
(09:16):
of course, and they should assess them care. But the
tendency to overestimate risk comes with its own danger. Without
we're a world freedom, children don't get the chance to
develop confidence, confidence, and the ability to solve everyday issues. Indeed,
independence and is unsupervised play are associated with positive mental
(09:37):
health outcomes. What country were we talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Recas Switzerland with Vanessa? Yeah, yeah, and their dealer is
actually that episode this is no, Yeah, that episode will
be out. Sorry, go ahead, So you might want to
refer to the Vanessa Lias episode.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, because they just let their kids do whatever the
all they want.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Actually, at their scos kids' school, you can drop them off.
They have to walk their.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Base, They have to walk to school or allow to
drop them off or pick them up to teach them.
Let's see, what were these words to teach them independence
and the other stuff. Okay, still I'll go back. Without
real world freedom, children don't get the chance to develop competence, confidence,
(10:22):
and the ability to solve everyday problems. Indeed, independence and
unsupervised players associated with positive mental health outcomes. Still, parents
spend more time supervising their kids than parents did in
the sixties, even though they now work more and have
fewer children. Across all income levels, families have come to
(10:43):
believe that organized activities are the key to get safety
and success. So sandlock games gave way to travel baseball
Cartwell's at the park gave way to competitive cheer teams.
Kids have been strapped into the back of the seat
for their lives, dropped off, picked up up, and overheld.
As their independence is dwindled, their anxiety and depression have spiked,
(11:06):
and they aren't the only one suffering. In twenty twenty three,
the Search in general cited intensive caregiving as one reason
for today's parents are more stressed than ever. That's so interesting.
Kids will always have more spare hours than adults can supervise,
a gap that devices now fill. Go outside has been
(11:28):
quite replaced with go online. The Internet is one of
the only escape patches from childhoods grown anxious, small, and sad.
We certainly don't blame parents for this. The social norms, communities, infrastructure,
and institutions that once facilitated free play. Ever, rod it
telling children to go outside doesn't work so well when
(11:49):
no one else's kids are there. That's why we're so
glad that groups around the country experimenting with ways to
rebuild American childhood rooting get in freedom, responsibility, and friendship.
In Piedmont, California, a network of parents started dropping their
kids off at the park every Friday to play and supervise.
Sometimes the kids argue or get bored, which is good
(12:11):
learning to handle boredom and conflict as an essential part
of a child's development. Elsewhere, churches, libraries, and schools are
creating screen free play clubs to ease the transition away
from screens to supervision. The Outside Play Lab at the
University of British Columbia developed a free online tool that
helps parents figure out how to give their kids more
(12:33):
outdoor time and why they should. Just a brief and
elude here, the fact that we have to give parents
tools about how to let their children go play outside
in and of itself is endemic of a problem. I
think we'll be right back. More than a thousand schools
(13:16):
nationwide have begun using a free program from let Grow,
a nonprofit. The two of us, Lenora and John, helped
found a foster children's independence k through twelve. Students in
the program get a monthly homework assignment do something new
on your own with your parents' permission, but without their help.
Kids use the prompt to run errands, climb trees, cook meals.
(13:40):
Some finally learn how to tie their own shoes. Here's
what one fourth grader with intellectual disabilities wrote in our
own words and spelling, this is my fist let it
Go project. I went shopping by myself. I handle it will,
but to check out was a little bit hard, but
(14:01):
was fun to do. I learned that I'm brave and
go shop by myself. I love the project. Other hopeful
signs are emerging. The New Jersey based Balance Project is
helping fifty communities reduce scream time and restore free play
for kids, employing the four new norms that John lays
out in The Anxious Generation. This summer, Newburyport, Massachusetts is
(14:25):
hating out prizes each week to kids who want to
try something new on their own. Leg Grow has a
toolkit for other communities that want to do the same
the Boy Scouts. The rebrand, now rebranded as Scouting America
and open to all young people, is finally growing again.
We could go on what we see in the data
and from the stories parents send us is both simple
(14:47):
and poignant. Kids being raised on screens long for freedom.
It's like they're homesick from a world they've never known. Boy,
that's a cool line granting them more freedom. They feel
uncomfortable at first, but if parents want their kids to
put down their phones, they need to open the front door.
Nearly three quarters of the children are survey agreed with
(15:09):
a statement, I would spend less time online if there
were more friends in my neighborhood to play with in person,
Stephanie H. Murray. Would adults lost when kids stop playing
in the street. If nothing changes, Silicon Valley will keep
supplying kids with ever more sophisticated AI friends that are
always available and will cater to a child's every whim.
(15:31):
But AI will never fulfill a child's deepest desires. Even
this generation of digital natives still longs for what most
of their parents had, time with friends in person without adults.
Today's kids want to spend their childhood in the real world.
It's our job to give it back to them. Holy smokes,
(15:53):
I don't have an hour to sit here and go
on about this. You've got two minutes.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
If you got a hard stop, that's en sorright.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
But we got maybe two to six. But the point is,
that's how I'm bragging on Lisa. But man, I'm telling you,
she would sling the door open after breakfast during the
summers and say get in the yard. And there were
(16:19):
a couple of other groups of kids. There were some
helicopter parents who didn't let their precious babies come outside
and get Skindny's. But there were there were, And we
lived and we weren't in a neighborhood where houses were
just lined up, so there was space. But I mean,
our kids wandered half a mile from the house playing
(16:40):
kick the can. There's no doubt they knocked on people's
doors and ran and did stuff they shouldn't do. I mean,
I'm sure of it, but you know what, and they did.
They came back scraped and bruised and sweaty and red
and everything else. But thank goodness, Lisa did that with
our kids. And we didn't fight the devices. We waited.
(17:03):
We did cell phones on everybody's fifteenth birthday, and I
still am not sure if that's earlier late, but we
did not do screen dumb and Max and Will were
allowed one hour of video games a day and that
was it. And you know, my kids are not perfect,
(17:24):
and they in fact, they're pretty flawed. But the one
thing they are they're social. They are very social human beings,
and they like to have fun and they like to laugh,
and they are creative and even as young adults, they
they are interested in new things. And I think it's
because they're all curious too.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I mean, I don't really know Maggie, but like Max,
Will and Molly are definitely all curious. I mean, you
remember Max, you know, came in here. Yeah, well we
did our thing, yeah, and he had some super powerful
lines of like me and my dad used to not
be on the same side of the field and like
now we are. And I'm forgetting the exact nature of it,
but he said a lot of beautiful things.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Macs a great kid. But the point is, I think
their curiosity and all of that comes from their socialization
as children, and their socializations children's comes from the fact
that when I was at work, Lisa kicked their ass
out the door and told them to go outside and play.
And I genuinely believe that, and so because that's my experience,
(18:33):
that's why I'm constantly talking about and candidly how disgusting
helicoptering is. I mean, you're shutting down your children's ability
to develop, and we got to let them get out there.
And what happens to this army of normal folks if
we don't have people who have the intellectual curiosity to
(18:57):
engage because they never learned how his kids unless it's
online with some stranger that's got an avatar.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So in like one sense they mentioned the article too,
it's helicoptering with the physical world, but then it's the
opposite of that with the online world.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, that's the other thing, that's with the real danger.
You're not even you're not even you're not even connected
as a parent to what the world danger is. When
you won't let your kid outside but you fill their
time with online stuff. The world dangers there. There are
there are horrible people in places in the world that
(19:33):
can get online and send your kids horrible pictures and
convince them to do awful things and just hype.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I mean, with my girls you know, they would they
know like way too much about sex, like ages eight
and nine, just from the culture and all the stuff
online and this hyper sexualized music and video content and
like that's all out there if you just let them
realm the internet.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, and they're not going to find that climbing the
top of a tree, not gonna climb find that building
a fort. They're not gonna find that plane kick the can.
So where's the danger. Danger's online? And the alternative danger
is so what if they skin any or break an arm?
Who cares? They're gonna be all right. Let them go.
(20:15):
Let them be kids. And It's been one of my
pet peeves and arguments for years and years and years.
And I'm sure I've hurt some mommy's feelings saying what
I'm saying, and maybe some daddy's feelings too, But for
gosh sakes, let your kids be free, let them roam,
let them learn, let them develop, and trust that you've
done a good, good enough job, given them the proper
(20:37):
morals and foundations that when they're faced with a big issue,
they'll cheers right. And if they don't, well, they'll learn
from that too. Let them roam, let them be free. Great,
great article.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I didn't write it, but.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Thanks no, well, thanks for finding it, thanks sharing it.
So that's it. Shop Talk numbers seventy seven. Quit being
a helicopter parent, recognize where the real danger is. Kick
your kids out of the house and let them go
have fun outside and understand that a little bit of
free time is really what they're longing for. And if
you're tired of all the time they're spending on screens,
(21:17):
listen to what they tell us. It's not that that's
the primary thing they want to do. It's just filling
the void for the things that they really long for,
which is face to face interaction and free play time
with friends. Give them that and you'll see your screen
time decrease, and you also see your child develop in
a better way than what maybe you've experienced so far.
(21:39):
So that's it. If you like this shop Talk, please
rate it, review it, share it with friends on social.
If you have an idea for shop Talk in the future,
you can write me anytime at Bill at normal folks
dot us. You can write me there as well if
you have ideas for guests for an Army and Normal Folks.
If you write me there, I will respond Please join what.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Join the Army at normal folks dot us.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, that's it. That's shop Talk number seventy seven. Thanks
for joining us. We'll see you next week.
Everybody. It's Bill Courtney. Welcome to the shop. Hi Alex.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey Bill, let's get into it this time. We don't
have much time.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
We do want to get into the shop. Talk.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Well, no, we got to talk about the shop. Oh man,
I mean I'm going to give you an extra two
minutes to talk about the shop. Shop talk number seventy seven.
What's the number, oh oc Brown from Undefeated? Oh really,
number seventy seven. There's something If.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
It wasn't for us, C, your life might have been different.
What's uh, It's actually interesting to think about it that way.
If it wasn't for USC, your life might have been different.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
But for a lot of kids, my life, you and
I wouldn't know each other.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, yeah, pretty crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's it all right? In the Atlantic, what kids told
us about how to get them off their phones? Children
who were raised on screens need more freedom out in
the real world.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
By I don't know, Thenarsknes, Lenorskansy it's Lenor'skanesy. Yeah, and
Jonathan hed and then what's the last guy's name, I
don't know, Zach Rosch Okay, yeah, ok, Raush probably, but yeah,
keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
All right, So here's the deal. Everybody. I already loved
this because just read it, I'm sick of kids on
their phones all the time. And do you know, do
you know, seriously, there's a pediatric study and I'm gonna
butcher this and I wish you would find this next time.
But it's like the number of broken bones and children
(01:35):
has decreased by like, I don't know, something like eighty
percent over the last two decades.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Earlier, we kind of riffed on that in the Vanessa
Lias interview, but we didn't talk about the data.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
But it's something like eighty percent. Huh. And that sounds great, right,
because you know, who wants to break a bunch of kids' bones?
But actually it leads to more problems down the road
because kids' bones are stronger from all the exercises of
stuff they got because they're fat eating twinkies, by devices
(02:09):
that we as parents give them.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
And more importantly, what it means is you're not taking risks.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, that's a good point too. Yeah, So anyway, we're
going to talk about this stuff right after these brief
messages from our center sponsors. All right, everybody, welcome back.
(02:41):
What kids told us about how to get them off
their phones. So we're always trying to talk about a
well as usual, why don't we go to the source
and ask them? So apparently we're going to learn what
kids told us about how to get them off their phones.
Children who were raised on screens need more freedom out
in the real world. Even read the thing yet, But
(03:01):
I'm just going to paraphrase here. Quit being helicopter parents, Okay.
One common explanation for why children spend so much of
their free time on screens goes like this, smartphones and
social media platforms are addicting them. Kids stare at their
devices and socialize online instead of in person because that's
what tech has trained them to want. Boy, that's paraphrases
(03:24):
basically what a lot of people think and believe. But
this misses a key part of the story. The three
of us. These three of us writers are.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Leonora Narsknesi, Jonathan Hayden, Zack Ross.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
All Right, these three people collaborated with the Hair's Poll
to survey a group of Americans whose perspectives don't often
show up in national data. Kids. What they told us
offers a comprehensive picture of how American childhood is changing, and,
most importantly, how to make it better. In March, the
(04:00):
poll surveyed more than five hundred kids ages eight to
twelve across the United States, who were assured that their
answers would remain private. The kids didn't want their parents
to know. That's funny. They offered unmistakable evidence that the
phone based childhood is in full force. A majority reported
having smartphones, and about half of the ten to twelve
(04:22):
year olds said that most or all of their friends
use social media. How old are your kids?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So? My oldest too, that this is relevant for are
ten and eleven?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, And I've refused to let them have horphones, but
most of their friends do.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I Georgie six, all.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Right, so six, oh geez, six, eight, ten, and eleven.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I mean three of them are in the focus group. Yeah, yeah,
do your kids have smartphones? When? How old will they be?
How old will they be when you let them have them?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I mean at least fourteen?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, Yeah, anyway, going, I want you to we've ripped on.
I don't want us to complain about the topic too much.
There's fascinating stuff in here to get into, all right.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I'll keep going. All right, So about half of the
ten to twelve year old said that most of all
their friends use social media. This digital technology has given
kids access to virtual worlds where they're allowed to roam
far more freely than in the real one. About seventy
five percent of kids a change.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Think about that for a second, though, I know it
isn't that a wild I've never even thought of it.
That's such a good line.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
The digital technology has given kids access to virtual worlds
where they're allowed to roam far more freely than the
real one. The point is, I don't know if that
line is indicative of a good thing or a bad thing.
I would say a bad thing for Kidsy's age. About
seventy five percent of kids ages nine through twelve regularly
play the online game Robologues, where they can interact with
(05:55):
friends and even strangers, but most of the children are
surveys said they aren't allowed to be out in public
at all without an adult. There you go. Most of
the kids survey can't walk around in public without an
adult because parents want to protect them, but then they
pay for it, give them advice and give them access
(06:17):
to room the world with strangers, many of whom are
grown creeps trying to do things with your children. Just
remember that fewer than half of the eight to nine
year olds have gone down a grocery store all alone.
More than quarter aren't allowed to play unsupervised, even though
(06:37):
on front yard, but yet they can roam around virtually
in this world. These are the exact kinds of freedoms
that kids told us they long for. We ask them
to pick their favorite way to spend time with friends,
unstructured play such as shooting hoops and exploring their neighborhoods,
participating in activities organized by adults, just playing Little League
(07:01):
and doing ballet, or socializing online. There was a clear winner.
An image of a graph showing responses to the question
how would you rather spend time with friends? Forty five
percent of the respondents said free play in person, thirty
percent said organized activity in person, and only twenty five
(07:21):
percent said online activity. Children want to meet up in person,
no screens or supervision, but because so many parents restrict
their ability to socialize in the real world on their own,
kids resort to the one thing that allows them to
hang out with no adults hovering their phones. Since the eighties,
parents have grown more and more afraid that unsupervised time
(07:44):
will expose their kids to physical or emotional harm. In
another recent Hairs poll, we asked parents what they thought
would happen if two ten year olds played in a
local part without adults. A realm sixty percent thought that
children would likely get injured. Half though they would likely
get have be ducted. I'm sorry for laughing, but good
(08:07):
grief ten year olds. When I was ten, I roamed everywhere,
and yeah, I might have gotten hurt or something, but
I mean, it wasn't anything sustain in.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
The reality is most kids are in towns like I'm
in an Oxford that are really safe.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, roam, Oh, here we go. We're about to put
some data on what I just said. These intuitions don't
even begin to resimble reality. According to the Warwick Carns,
the author of How to Live Dangerously, kidnapping the United
States is so rare that a child would have to
be outside unsupervised on average seven hundred and fifty thousand
(08:47):
years before being snatched by a stranger.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I don't know who'd want to kidnap my kids?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Good luck, Yeah, that's right. There's a couple of my
kids you'd probably kidnap and bring back. Just say here,
I don't want anything to take them. But listen to that.
Kidnapping is so rare that a child would have to
be outside unsupervised for on average seven hundred and fifty
thousand years before being snatched. Parents know their neighborhood best,
(09:16):
of course, and they should assess them care. But the
tendency to overestimate risk comes with its own danger. Without
we're a world freedom, children don't get the chance to
develop confidence, confidence, and the ability to solve everyday issues. Indeed,
independence and is unsupervised play are associated with positive mental
(09:37):
health outcomes. What country were we talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Recas Switzerland with Vanessa? Yeah, yeah, and their dealer is
actually that episode this is no, Yeah, that episode will
be out. Sorry, go ahead, So you might want to
refer to the Vanessa Lias episode.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, because they just let their kids do whatever the
all they want.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Actually, at their scos kids' school, you can drop them off.
They have to walk their.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Base, They have to walk to school or allow to
drop them off or pick them up to teach them.
Let's see, what were these words to teach them independence
and the other stuff. Okay, still I'll go back. Without
real world freedom, children don't get the chance to develop competence, confidence,
(10:22):
and the ability to solve everyday problems. Indeed, independence and
unsupervised players associated with positive mental health outcomes. Still, parents
spend more time supervising their kids than parents did in
the sixties, even though they now work more and have
fewer children. Across all income levels, families have come to
(10:43):
believe that organized activities are the key to get safety
and success. So sandlock games gave way to travel baseball
Cartwell's at the park gave way to competitive cheer teams.
Kids have been strapped into the back of the seat
for their lives, dropped off, picked up up, and overheld.
As their independence is dwindled, their anxiety and depression have spiked,
(11:06):
and they aren't the only one suffering. In twenty twenty three,
the Search in general cited intensive caregiving as one reason
for today's parents are more stressed than ever. That's so interesting.
Kids will always have more spare hours than adults can supervise,
a gap that devices now fill. Go outside has been
(11:28):
quite replaced with go online. The Internet is one of
the only escape patches from childhoods grown anxious, small, and sad.
We certainly don't blame parents for this. The social norms, communities, infrastructure,
and institutions that once facilitated free play. Ever, rod it
telling children to go outside doesn't work so well when
(11:49):
no one else's kids are there. That's why we're so
glad that groups around the country experimenting with ways to
rebuild American childhood rooting get in freedom, responsibility, and friendship.
In Piedmont, California, a network of parents started dropping their
kids off at the park every Friday to play and supervise.
Sometimes the kids argue or get bored, which is good
(12:11):
learning to handle boredom and conflict as an essential part
of a child's development. Elsewhere, churches, libraries, and schools are
creating screen free play clubs to ease the transition away
from screens to supervision. The Outside Play Lab at the
University of British Columbia developed a free online tool that
helps parents figure out how to give their kids more
(12:33):
outdoor time and why they should. Just a brief and
elude here, the fact that we have to give parents
tools about how to let their children go play outside
in and of itself is endemic of a problem. I
think we'll be right back. More than a thousand schools
(13:16):
nationwide have begun using a free program from let Grow,
a nonprofit. The two of us, Lenora and John, helped
found a foster children's independence k through twelve. Students in
the program get a monthly homework assignment do something new
on your own with your parents' permission, but without their help.
Kids use the prompt to run errands, climb trees, cook meals.
(13:40):
Some finally learn how to tie their own shoes. Here's
what one fourth grader with intellectual disabilities wrote in our
own words and spelling, this is my fist let it
Go project. I went shopping by myself. I handle it will,
but to check out was a little bit hard, but
(14:01):
was fun to do. I learned that I'm brave and
go shop by myself. I love the project. Other hopeful
signs are emerging. The New Jersey based Balance Project is
helping fifty communities reduce scream time and restore free play
for kids, employing the four new norms that John lays
out in The Anxious Generation. This summer, Newburyport, Massachusetts is
(14:25):
hating out prizes each week to kids who want to
try something new on their own. Leg Grow has a
toolkit for other communities that want to do the same
the Boy Scouts. The rebrand, now rebranded as Scouting America
and open to all young people, is finally growing again.
We could go on what we see in the data
and from the stories parents send us is both simple
(14:47):
and poignant. Kids being raised on screens long for freedom.
It's like they're homesick from a world they've never known. Boy,
that's a cool line granting them more freedom. They feel
uncomfortable at first, but if parents want their kids to
put down their phones, they need to open the front door.
Nearly three quarters of the children are survey agreed with
(15:09):
a statement, I would spend less time online if there
were more friends in my neighborhood to play with in person,
Stephanie H. Murray. Would adults lost when kids stop playing
in the street. If nothing changes, Silicon Valley will keep
supplying kids with ever more sophisticated AI friends that are
always available and will cater to a child's every whim.
(15:31):
But AI will never fulfill a child's deepest desires. Even
this generation of digital natives still longs for what most
of their parents had, time with friends in person without adults.
Today's kids want to spend their childhood in the real world.
It's our job to give it back to them. Holy smokes,
(15:53):
I don't have an hour to sit here and go
on about this. You've got two minutes.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
If you got a hard stop, that's en sorright.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
But we got maybe two to six. But the point is,
that's how I'm bragging on Lisa. But man, I'm telling you,
she would sling the door open after breakfast during the
summers and say get in the yard. And there were
(16:19):
a couple of other groups of kids. There were some
helicopter parents who didn't let their precious babies come outside
and get Skindny's. But there were there were, And we
lived and we weren't in a neighborhood where houses were
just lined up, so there was space. But I mean,
our kids wandered half a mile from the house playing
(16:40):
kick the can. There's no doubt they knocked on people's
doors and ran and did stuff they shouldn't do. I mean,
I'm sure of it, but you know what, and they did.
They came back scraped and bruised and sweaty and red
and everything else. But thank goodness, Lisa did that with
our kids. And we didn't fight the devices. We waited.
(17:03):
We did cell phones on everybody's fifteenth birthday, and I
still am not sure if that's earlier late, but we
did not do screen dumb and Max and Will were
allowed one hour of video games a day and that
was it. And you know, my kids are not perfect,
(17:24):
and they in fact, they're pretty flawed. But the one
thing they are they're social. They are very social human beings,
and they like to have fun and they like to laugh,
and they are creative and even as young adults, they
they are interested in new things. And I think it's
because they're all curious too.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I mean, I don't really know Maggie, but like Max,
Will and Molly are definitely all curious. I mean, you
remember Max, you know, came in here. Yeah, well we
did our thing, yeah, and he had some super powerful
lines of like me and my dad used to not
be on the same side of the field and like
now we are. And I'm forgetting the exact nature of it,
but he said a lot of beautiful things.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Macs a great kid. But the point is, I think
their curiosity and all of that comes from their socialization
as children, and their socializations children's comes from the fact
that when I was at work, Lisa kicked their ass
out the door and told them to go outside and play.
And I genuinely believe that, and so because that's my experience,
(18:33):
that's why I'm constantly talking about and candidly how disgusting
helicoptering is. I mean, you're shutting down your children's ability
to develop, and we got to let them get out there.
And what happens to this army of normal folks if
we don't have people who have the intellectual curiosity to
(18:57):
engage because they never learned how his kids unless it's
online with some stranger that's got an avatar.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So in like one sense they mentioned the article too,
it's helicoptering with the physical world, but then it's the
opposite of that with the online world.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, that's the other thing, that's with the real danger.
You're not even you're not even you're not even connected
as a parent to what the world danger is. When
you won't let your kid outside but you fill their
time with online stuff. The world dangers there. There are
there are horrible people in places in the world that
(19:33):
can get online and send your kids horrible pictures and
convince them to do awful things and just hype.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I mean, with my girls you know, they would they
know like way too much about sex, like ages eight
and nine, just from the culture and all the stuff
online and this hyper sexualized music and video content and
like that's all out there if you just let them
realm the internet.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, and they're not going to find that climbing the
top of a tree, not gonna climb find that building
a fort. They're not gonna find that plane kick the can.
So where's the danger. Danger's online? And the alternative danger
is so what if they skin any or break an arm?
Who cares? They're gonna be all right. Let them go.
(20:15):
Let them be kids. And It's been one of my
pet peeves and arguments for years and years and years.
And I'm sure I've hurt some mommy's feelings saying what
I'm saying, and maybe some daddy's feelings too, But for
gosh sakes, let your kids be free, let them roam,
let them learn, let them develop, and trust that you've
done a good, good enough job, given them the proper
(20:37):
morals and foundations that when they're faced with a big issue,
they'll cheers right. And if they don't, well, they'll learn
from that too. Let them roam, let them be free. Great,
great article.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I didn't write it, but.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Thanks no, well, thanks for finding it, thanks sharing it.
So that's it. Shop Talk numbers seventy seven. Quit being
a helicopter parent, recognize where the real danger is. Kick
your kids out of the house and let them go
have fun outside and understand that a little bit of
free time is really what they're longing for. And if
you're tired of all the time they're spending on screens,
(21:17):
listen to what they tell us. It's not that that's
the primary thing they want to do. It's just filling
the void for the things that they really long for,
which is face to face interaction and free play time
with friends. Give them that and you'll see your screen
time decrease, and you also see your child develop in
a better way than what maybe you've experienced so far.
(21:39):
So that's it. If you like this shop Talk, please
rate it, review it, share it with friends on social.
If you have an idea for shop Talk in the future,
you can write me anytime at Bill at normal folks
dot us. You can write me there as well if
you have ideas for guests for an Army and Normal Folks.
If you write me there, I will respond Please join what.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Join the Army at normal folks dot us.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, that's it. That's shop Talk number seventy seven. Thanks
for joining us. We'll see you next week.
Host
Bill Courtney
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