Daryl Fairweather On Trump vs. Kamala Housing Plans, Career Cheat Codes from 'Hate The Game,' + More
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
What's up this way up with ange La Gee, I'm
here and my girl Darrol Fairweather is here, chief economist
at redfin Okay, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk
to you again.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
This is an exciting time because last time we spoke,
you know, the housing market things were a little bit
dismal for people. But now it looks like things are
on the upswing.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yes, the fact just cut rates and that means that
mortgage rates have come down, which means it's actually a
lot more affordable to buy a home than it was
just a couple of months ago. Four hundred dollars last
a month for the typical mortgage.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And now I also know people are definitely refinancing at
this time too, So I saw that happen like immediately right.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
The refinance applications they just popped today or popped this week.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Now, you also have a book that people can pre
order Hate.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
The Game, Yes, Hate the gamebook dot com if you're
looking for it.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And I want to say, I know Freakonomics was a
book that really inspired you. But what I love is
when people read this book, I feel like this will
have the effect on them the next generation their freakonomics
on you.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
You know, that book is why.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
You became an economist, which is something you hadn't necessarily
considered before, and there were a lot of things at
play that made it feel like it wasn't going to
be something that was the best idea. I want you
to talk about that too, because a lot of what
this Hate the Game book is about is helping people
learn how to make career decisions and things are kind
of like.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
A game, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
But why was being an economists according to your parents,
you know, your grandmother, even not the best idea.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah. So when I went to college MIT, I thought
I was going to be an engineer. But then once
I read for economics, I realized that I really wanted
to study economics. It's not just about you know, prices
and stock market. It's about the way that people make decisions.
And that was really interesting to me putting that to
putting logic to that and having some structure to that.
But when I told my dad, he was disappointed. He
(01:51):
thought I was going to be an engineer, and he
thought that would protect me from facing discrimination, like if
I went into something that was more objective, where you know,
you could tell of a play flies or not. It's
like very simple, but when you're writing an economics paper,
there's a lot of subjectivity to it, even if economists
don't want to admit that. And I decided to go
through with it even though my dad and my grandmother
(02:12):
told me not to. My grandmother was actually the first
black woman to be licensed as at architect in New
York and California, so she for sure knew the barriers
that I would be up against, like being one of
the first. I was actually the first black woman to
get a PhD in economics from University of Chicago.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
That's why Pat Daryl, let's go okay.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Right, So, but it's hard. It's hard to be the first.
It's hard when you don't have role models, when you
don't know if what's happening to you is discrimination or
if it's just hard for everybody. So I wanted to
write this book to inspire people to learn more about
economics because it is so useful. It's the thing that
can help you understand, you know what is in your
control and what's out of your control when it comes
(02:50):
to things like finding a job or getting a promotion
or getting a raise, understanding economics can really put all
that into perspective and help you feel more empowered.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Right because, as you point out in this book, a
lot of times there's advice that people can give you,
but it's not a one size fits all type of thing.
You know, you can't say, Okay, you need to go
and negotiate for a higher salary, and women don't do
that as often, which is true, right. Women don't negotiate
a salary, a higher salary as much as men do,
or even what their salary is going to be when
(03:20):
they first get hired for a job. A lot of
times they may just take an offer, but there's a
lot of other things that are a play too, and
knowing what the other issues are can also help you
figure out how to navigate that.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, So the advice I heard when I was starting
my career was you need to be more confident, you
need to ask for more. And when I started asking,
I start getting rejected. And that's what I realized. I
need to understand, like what is the other person's perspective?
And I think game theory, which is basically the building
blocks of economics, can help you understand that. Understanding. You know,
when you're in a negotiation, what does the other person want?
(03:54):
What are their options? And how what are your options?
And how can you improve your options that you can
go in and whether the person agrees or not, you're
gonna know you're gonna be well off and you're gonna
feel confident and the decision that you make, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Because sometimes it is just go someplace else and get
a better salary at another place.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It's not gonna happen here for you.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Absolutely. And I know so many people who have gotten
stuck in jobs where they are undervalued because they don't
realize how many other better options there are out there.
They think that if one person tells them no, that
everyone's going to tell them no. And that's just not true.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
You know what I love to you compared some of
these negotiating and barters and and.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Games to the movie too.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Can play that game that movie clearly that which was
so funny to me, but it was very interesting. You
talk about Vivica Fox and Morris Chestnut and the things
that they did to each other because of the value
that one person had, but why it worked, and this
is early on in the book, but just so you
guys can get a little taste for it and why
you're gonna love this?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Can you explain that analogy?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yes, if you've seen the movie too, can play that game.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
You hasn't seen who can play that?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
It was my first introduction to game theory really, because
what Vivia fox is ca character does is that when
her man is stepping out on her, she doesn't get mad.
She doesn't like yell at him. That would make him
want to leave her even more. What she does is
she goes and she improves her outside options. That's a
game theory term. She goes and she finds other men,
she flirts with them. She kind of throws it in
Morris Chestnut's face, and then he's worried about her leaving.
(05:17):
And that's exactly what you want to do. If you
are asking for a raise at work, go out and
find your other options, find those other suitors and figure
out what they're willing to offer you before you go
to your boss and ask for a raise, because then
they know that you're for real that you will leave
if you don't get that raise.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Now, another thing as a woman is you also talk
about being pregnant while at work but getting a promotion,
but not letting them know right away that you were
about to be I think in your second trimester. So
a lot of people talk about how being pregnant and
having a family it does affect women more than men
in the workplace. Yes, and I know a lot of
(05:53):
our listeners can attest to that. Sometimes people put off
having a family because they're like, Oh, I don't want
this to affect you know what they're going to say
about MEO work? Is that going to mean that they're
gonna give me worse reviews? So talk to me about
what that experience was like for you when you were
at work and then you had to go on maternity leave.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yes, I was working for this huge tech firm when
I got pregnant, and I was in the middle of
the promotion process. Like I knew that I was likely
going to get promoted, but I was so afraid to
let people know because I thought that if I told
people that my worst and my chances of getting promoted. So,
you know, I kept it under the lid and I
didn't tell anybody until after my promotion was locked. And
then when I actually went out on attorney leave, I
(06:31):
felt like, you know, I was kind of being I
guess a little bit looked over at work when I
got back that the opportunities weren't as good for me
when I got back to work, But knowing that I
had other options made me feel more confident, because you know,
I think that if you're in a workplace and you
feel like you're not being treated fairly as a mother
or as a pregnant woman, you should know there are
other options for you. There are other workplaces that I mean,
(06:55):
they don't care if you took maternity leave or not
when you're starting a new job. So if you see
yourself from the outside perspective, like what other job could
I get? And I think you'll feel less stuck. You'll
feel like you don't have to endure discrimination or endure
unfair treatment if you know what's available to you.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
You know, I've always said, like when it comes to
my career, I've strived to put myself in a position
where I never felt like I needed to be in
a certain job or in a certain position, to know
that I have other options and to be in the
position at some point where if I decide I didn't
want to have to work, I'll be okay, you know,
And so that's always been valuable for me, but it
took a long time for me to feel that way.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, And I think the hard part is actually understanding
what is that you are what you want out of
a career, because it's not always about having the highest
salary or the best title. Sometimes it's about work life
balance or doing work that's meaningful for your So once
you understand your own values, it's a lot easier to
make decisions that put you closer in alignment with your values.
And then nobody can take that away from you if
you know if you have the things like internally that
(07:56):
you want.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And I want to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
This has been a headline that I've been seeing a
lot of different places where more people with high net
worths are renting instead of buying. So I want you
to discuss that with me. Is that really true? Because
I see that headline in a lot of different places.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We're seeing more of that, And it makes a lot
of sense because owning a home, you might be able
to fix your mortgage rate, but there are other costs
that are kind of out of your control, like maintenance costs,
insurance costs, and if you want to have flexibility, then
renting can be easier and if you don't want to
have to fix your own sink, then renting can be easier.
So we're seeing more of these lifestyle renters. Sometimes it's
younger people Gen Z and millennials who feel like they
(08:34):
can't afford a down payment, so they're going to rent
long term. And if you're going to do that, that's fine,
but make sure you keep saving for retirement your other
life goals. And then we're also seeing older people who
have owned a home for years and years selling getting
their equity out and deciding to rent because it's just
a lot easier to do that than to maintain a home.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
And so what was your first home buying experience?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Like, well, I bought a home back what was it
twenty fifteen, and I feel like I was pretty nig
even going into it. I locked into a home before
I realized that I was going to quit my job
in move cities, which is not the best idea. It
was challenging. I feel like next time I bought a home,
I was more aware of what things to look for.
So it's important to do your research ahead of time
(09:16):
and understand the housing market and especially knowing like are
you going to stay in this home? For five years.
That's one of the most important things for building equity.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, you give some valuable information on that too, as
far as purchasing a home and what type of offers
you even should be making depending on what the market
is like.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah. So when I was buying a home in Seattle,
it was a very competitive market and there was a
structure too where there was actually like an auction for
the home where you put in a bid and other
people might be putting in a bid too, so you
have to think about, well, what are other people going
to value this home at. But the most important thing
is to make sure that you're paying a price that
you can actually afford to not get caught up in
the hype. And also there's so many biases that you
(09:54):
might run into, like falling in love with the home
before you actually own the home can put you in
a position where you might do something irrational like overpaying, right.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
That is very true, and especially because they always tell
you like play it cool, you know, with the broker,
because you don't want to be like, oh my god,
I love this house.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Is the house in my dreams and then they're.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Like got them, yes, yes, I saw California.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
The real estate.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
There has been you know, absolutely crazy with this Amanson
text everything happening. I saw, there's been a lot more fraud,
and I think the issue also is that a lot
of people are doing everything online right now, and so
what would you say to people about protecting themselves because
I've seen a lot of stories about this also just
come through where people are like, Okay, there's been people
who are such high level cyber criminals that they're sending
(10:38):
you emails and you really think it's coming from your bank,
and then you're wiring money because it looks just like
an email from your bank. How should people protect themselves?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Well, I think working with an experienced agent is really important.
I know some people feel like they can do it
all themselves, all the informations on a website like redfin,
but having an agent guide you through the process and
tell you what to look out for is really important.
And they will tell you that if you are sending
a wire, make sure you call the bank and confirm
all the wire information, confirm that it's actually going to
(11:06):
the seller. But those little things, I think an agent
can really help you with making a strong offer, identifying
homes that you might have problems making sure they get
an inspection done. All that can save you from a
lot of headaches.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And let's talk about real estate agents for a second,
because people are very confused now about what's going on
with this new ruling from the nar right and so
what does that mean now as far as real estate
agent commissions and what people who are buyers and sellers,
how are they affected by this new ruling.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
So it used to be that if you were buying
a home, you didn't really worry about how your agent
was paid because that would be paid by the seller.
Once you pay the seller, they take a percentage and
give it to the buyer's agent. But that's all changed
now when you are working at the buyer's agent, you
have to agree on how they are paid at that
first tour at least have some guidelines set about how
that will proceed. And a lot of people are intimidating
(12:00):
to buy that because I've never had to consider how
their agent is paid before. But I think it's ultimately
going to be good because people will learn, like what
services to expect out of the agent and understand that
they that they're not free even though the seller was
paying it, you were paying indirectly before, but now it's
a bit more transparent, and it's a bit of a
difficult time because of all the rules are changing. But
I think if you just have an honest conversation with
(12:21):
your agent, talk to multiple agents even and understand what
they're offering, then you can end up getting even a
better deal potentially.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So are we in a situation now where buyers may
be paying agent fees.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Well, some buyers will opt to pay their agent with cash,
and some buyers are going to put in the contract
that they are only basically going to make offers on
homes where the seller will pay the buyer's agent. But
I think this is going to create some shifts in
the market where the people who have cash might be
more successful. That's what we've seen in our data is
(12:53):
that if you're making a cash offer, it's usually more successful.
And if you're telling the seller you don't have to
worry about paying the agent, I'm going to pay the
agent with cash, that might make the offera more successful too.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I think my cash office has always been more successful though,
Like people love an all cash offer, no.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yah way, yes, yeah, And I think if.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
You're not waiting for a bank mortgage to come through,
right right.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I think it's going to be the same way with
the agents, where people who are kind of paying the
agent and not asking the seller to pay might be
more successful, which might create some more inequalities in the market.
But we'll see how that plays out. That was one
concern about these new rule changes.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Now, another thing that I've been noticing is Miami. The
real estate.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Market in Florida too, by the way, in general, yes,
but with the condos, right and now there's been a
new law in Florida, and I see there's been a
lot of condos that are on the market, some of
these older condos because the HOA fees are about to
go up.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yes there are, there are already going up, and it's
because of this law change. If people remember, there was
this huge condo colops, the surf side condo clops that
happened a couple of years ago, and after that was investigated,
they determined that we need stricter rules for these condo buildings,
so they're actually maintaining the properties. And it kind of
go back to climate change because the reason was erosion essentially,
(14:03):
and we're probably going to see more storms, more rainfall,
more basically maintenance that needs to be done on homes
and condos and that's going to make it more costly
for homeowners and it's gonna unfortunately suppress home values and sales.
And that's what we're seeing so far. This is kind
of early days. We're also hearing from our agents about
how insurance costs are going up in Florida and how
that's been really difficult for home buyers to wrap their
(14:24):
heads around just how expensive home insurance is. And right
now it's really a Florida problem in parts of Texas,
but I think this is going to be more of
a national problem, how expensive insurances and how expensive, yeah,
it is to maintain a home.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And I'm nervous about all of this and HOA fees.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I want to discuss HOA fees and so those are
never negotiable, right like when you are buying something, the
hoafee is what it is? What responsibility to does your
HIA have Because I hear a lot of people complain about, well,
I'm paying all these fees, but what is it going
towards and what are they even doing?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
How do you hold them accountable?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Well, if there is a home owners association and you
buy into that, you will become a voting member. So
it's important to keep up and attend those meetings and
understand what's in the documents. The documents should tell you
how much money the HOA has in savings, how much
they expect to be spending on maintenance or other expenses
for the condo building or the home association. So read
(15:20):
those documents and be like a good citizen is how
I would put it, and vote for the types of
investments that you think are going to increase your home value.
Hoas that usually have a leader who is making all
the decisions, but sometimes those leaders aren't so great, so
it's important to keep on top of it and hold
them accountable for the things that they're supposed to.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Do, kind of like voting in general. Exactly exactly, but complain.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
But it's like, are you going out and voting, Are
you going to any of these meetings? Are you holding
people accountable who are in office that is supposed to
handle things for you? How do you think this election
is going to affect things? Like, Okay, let's just say
when God willing win Kamala Harris wins, right.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
How do you think that will affect the market?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
If you had to predict, well, Harris has an extensive
housing plan. She's talking about building three million homes in
her first term, and we've seen the numbers and the
housing shortage is around four million homes, So that's going
to put a huge debt in the housing crisis. She
plans to accomplish that by giving subsidies to builders and
eliminating red tape when it comes to new construction, and
(16:22):
also giving down payment assistance to first time buyers twenty
five thousand dollars in down payment assistance. It's a really
big plan and all the pieces kind of work with
one another. We'll see what happens with Congress, because when
something goes through Congress, it has to be negotiated, and
we'll see what happens in the final bill. But I'm
just so excited that a presidential candidate is talking about
housing and talking about solutions that will actually work, because
(16:43):
for the longest time, politicians have kind of been like
lying to us. They've been telling us that this is
going to solve the housing crisis when economists know that
it won't. But for the first time, a presidential candidate
is talking about the housing crisis the way that housing
experts and economists talk about the housing market and.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
What is Danna Chump's plan.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It's a little bit hard to understand the things that
he's topic.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Can understand both sides, right.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So one thing that Trump has talked about time and
time again is protecting the suburbs and not letting low
income housing go into the suburbs. And I think there's
a lot of dog whistles going on there, but it's
basically the opposite of what you would want have a
housing solution. He's saying that he's not going to support
these new housing units that could potentially be affordable to
(17:28):
protect those single family suburban neighborhoods.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
He's also talked about cutting red tape the way that
Harris has, but he hasn't been as specific. It's a
little disappointing because I know he's supposed to be a builder,
but he hasn't had this build, build, build message that
the Democrats have had.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Right, A lot of people will discuss, oh, this isn't
getting done, that's not getting done, But the main thing
they say is not in my backyard. I do not
want this happening in my backyard. How do you get
around that? Because, like you said, there is a you know,
we all see this housing crisis that's happening right now,
and we do need to build in a lot of times.
In these suburbs is a lot more space than there
is in the city, but people are so against having
(18:05):
developments and things built and affordable housing where they live. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I talk about this in my book. It really comes
back to like economics and game theory. People are making
decisions for themselves are basically being selfish. They think that
if I bought this home in this neighborhood, then I
get to control everything that happens in the neighborhood. I
don't want new people coming in. I don't want you know,
apartment buildings or different types of people. And it's really selfish,
I think to put that over people who are housing
(18:31):
and secure, people who are potentially like won't be able
to commute to their job or won't be able to
access schools. Some of these suburbs have the best schools,
and unfortunately, because of the way that housing has segregated,
how you have to spend you know, five hundred thousand
dollars even a million dollars to buy into certain neighborhoods.
That exclude certain families from participating in those schools. So
I think it's really important for people to see the
(18:51):
big picture and kind of think beyond their own preferences.
It's more important that people have housing. That is that,
you know, you don't have to deal with more more
people at the super Yeah, more people at the supermarkets,
stilly things like that.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Now, do we expect these rates to come down even more?
Because I see people are still sitting waiting, like, okay,
you know right now the rates are going down, but
it's gonna go down even more, that's the expectation.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yes, we're forecasting that rates will continue to go down,
not by a whole lot. I think people are hoping
that it'll go back to this three or four percent.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I don't know, people forget that before that it's never
been right right that low.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay, yeah, I think that we'll get down to around
five and a half percent for a thirty year fixed
rate mortgage by the end of next year. Right now,
mortgage rates are at around six point one percent, so
not a huge drop, but it is back to kind
of normal territory. That's around the rates that we saw
in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen when the housing market was
in you know, a more affordable place. Unfortunately, prices are
much higher now right, So even though rates are coming
(19:46):
down that makes things more affordable. What will, unfortunately happen
is more people will get into the housing market, more
people will be competing and bidding up homes, and we'll
see prices go up again. The only way to really
get out of this is to build more housing.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Now. I got to ask you, you know, early on
you discuss how your dad your grandmother did not feel
like economics was the right move for you. Your grandmother
even said even to find a husband, yes, that was
the best major.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I thought that engineers make the best husbands. That business
people are too they're too obsessed with status.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But how do they feel now?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, unfirst till my grandmother has passed away. My dad
is obviously very proud of me and how far I've come.
I think he would admit that I made the right decision.
I think that's the advice I would give to most
young people is pursue what you're passionate about, what really
gets you excited, because that's what's going to get you
through those challenges. Even if I decided to be an engineer.
I'm sure I would have faced challenges too, but having
that drive and like knowing what I wanted, I think
(20:41):
that helped get me through even those challenges.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Now I know we can pre order the book Hate
the Game? Now, when does the book come out?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
April Eleventh's actually coming out on the twenty year anniversary
of Freakonomics.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Oh wow, was that planned?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Very coincidentally.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
No, But it's amazing how And I'm telling you guys,
like I haven't finished the entire book yet, but you
can see I've been reading it and it's fascinating to
me because I do love understanding how different things affect
the decisions that we make. And you know, I'm all
about like my financial wellness and always trying to level up.
And so I think that for anybody, this book is
(21:17):
something that is very relatable because you talk about your
own life situations, you talk about going to school, you
talk about after that, but all of those things that
can help people understand all the different ways that you
should make decisions. You can make decisions.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, and I hope it's fun too. I talk about Beyonce,
I talk about all the things that I enjoy in life.
That make economics fun. So I hope that people enjoy it.
It should be an enjoyable read and hopefully you learn
a lot too.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I'm telling you, guys, if you see how she loved
the book, I guarantee you there's going to be people
that are like, this is the book that inspire me.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
So I told you this.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
When I first met you, I was like, if I
would have met you when I was younger, I probably
would have been like, I want to be an economist
because you're the only person I've seen that looks like
this in this position, like a woman, you know, a
black woman that is doing this, and so I just
feel like sometimes they always say if you could see it,
you could be it, and it was never anything that
I would have even considered.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But you make it cool.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Thank you, Thank you. That's the goal, and you make
me cool. All right.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, you guys, pre order this book now. I love
every time you come up here. I always tell you
when you come into town, I need you to always
come and sit down with me because so many different
things should one more thing, because you know, I have
my real estate license, but people acted like it was
a bad time for me to even do that. Because
it's so different now and that it's been a lot
harder for realtors to even make money. What's your take
(22:33):
on that like the future of real estate agents.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Well, I think the housing market is going to pop
off next year now that rates are down, so there'll
be more activity for agents, and the role of agents
is changing. I think that now that people are going
to have to negotiate with their buyer's agent up front,
buyers agents will have to show their value, will have
to say what they're going to do that the other
agent won't do in terms of taking you on tours
or educating you about the process or having you have
the best offer. I think people are going to understand
(22:58):
more what agents are bringing to the table, which will
hopefully make agents better off too that you know they
are being valued directly instead of indirectly.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
All right, all right, well, Daryl Fairweather again, make sure
you pre order Hate the Game It comes out April eleventh.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Hate the Game book dot Com. Okay, Hate the Game
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Book dot Com, Go there and put your pre order
in its way up, way up,
What's up this way up with ange La Gee, I'm
here and my girl Darrol Fairweather is here, chief economist
at redfin Okay, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk
to you again.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
This is an exciting time because last time we spoke,
you know, the housing market things were a little bit
dismal for people. But now it looks like things are
on the upswing.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yes, the fact just cut rates and that means that
mortgage rates have come down, which means it's actually a
lot more affordable to buy a home than it was
just a couple of months ago. Four hundred dollars last
a month for the typical mortgage.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And now I also know people are definitely refinancing at
this time too, So I saw that happen like immediately right.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
The refinance applications they just popped today or popped this week.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Now, you also have a book that people can pre
order Hate.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
The Game, Yes, Hate the gamebook dot com if you're
looking for it.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And I want to say, I know Freakonomics was a
book that really inspired you. But what I love is
when people read this book, I feel like this will
have the effect on them the next generation their freakonomics
on you.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
You know, that book is why.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
You became an economist, which is something you hadn't necessarily
considered before, and there were a lot of things at
play that made it feel like it wasn't going to
be something that was the best idea. I want you
to talk about that too, because a lot of what
this Hate the Game book is about is helping people
learn how to make career decisions and things are kind
of like.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
A game, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
But why was being an economists according to your parents,
you know, your grandmother, even not the best idea.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah. So when I went to college MIT, I thought
I was going to be an engineer. But then once
I read for economics, I realized that I really wanted
to study economics. It's not just about you know, prices
and stock market. It's about the way that people make decisions.
And that was really interesting to me putting that to
putting logic to that and having some structure to that.
But when I told my dad, he was disappointed. He
(01:51):
thought I was going to be an engineer, and he
thought that would protect me from facing discrimination, like if
I went into something that was more objective, where you know,
you could tell of a play flies or not. It's
like very simple, but when you're writing an economics paper,
there's a lot of subjectivity to it, even if economists
don't want to admit that. And I decided to go
through with it even though my dad and my grandmother
(02:12):
told me not to. My grandmother was actually the first
black woman to be licensed as at architect in New
York and California, so she for sure knew the barriers
that I would be up against, like being one of
the first. I was actually the first black woman to
get a PhD in economics from University of Chicago.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
That's why Pat Daryl, let's go okay.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Right, So, but it's hard. It's hard to be the first.
It's hard when you don't have role models, when you
don't know if what's happening to you is discrimination or
if it's just hard for everybody. So I wanted to
write this book to inspire people to learn more about
economics because it is so useful. It's the thing that
can help you understand, you know what is in your
control and what's out of your control when it comes
(02:50):
to things like finding a job or getting a promotion
or getting a raise, understanding economics can really put all
that into perspective and help you feel more empowered.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Right because, as you point out in this book, a
lot of times there's advice that people can give you,
but it's not a one size fits all type of thing.
You know, you can't say, Okay, you need to go
and negotiate for a higher salary, and women don't do
that as often, which is true, right. Women don't negotiate
a salary, a higher salary as much as men do,
or even what their salary is going to be when
(03:20):
they first get hired for a job. A lot of
times they may just take an offer, but there's a
lot of other things that are a play too, and
knowing what the other issues are can also help you
figure out how to navigate that.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, So the advice I heard when I was starting
my career was you need to be more confident, you
need to ask for more. And when I started asking,
I start getting rejected. And that's what I realized. I
need to understand, like what is the other person's perspective?
And I think game theory, which is basically the building
blocks of economics, can help you understand that. Understanding. You know,
when you're in a negotiation, what does the other person want?
(03:54):
What are their options? And how what are your options?
And how can you improve your options that you can
go in and whether the person agrees or not, you're
gonna know you're gonna be well off and you're gonna
feel confident and the decision that you make, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Because sometimes it is just go someplace else and get
a better salary at another place.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It's not gonna happen here for you.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Absolutely. And I know so many people who have gotten
stuck in jobs where they are undervalued because they don't
realize how many other better options there are out there.
They think that if one person tells them no, that
everyone's going to tell them no. And that's just not true.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
You know what I love to you compared some of
these negotiating and barters and and.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Games to the movie too.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Can play that game that movie clearly that which was
so funny to me, but it was very interesting. You
talk about Vivica Fox and Morris Chestnut and the things
that they did to each other because of the value
that one person had, but why it worked, and this
is early on in the book, but just so you
guys can get a little taste for it and why
you're gonna love this?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Can you explain that analogy?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yes, if you've seen the movie too, can play that game.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
You hasn't seen who can play that?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
It was my first introduction to game theory really, because
what Vivia fox is ca character does is that when
her man is stepping out on her, she doesn't get mad.
She doesn't like yell at him. That would make him
want to leave her even more. What she does is
she goes and she improves her outside options. That's a
game theory term. She goes and she finds other men,
she flirts with them. She kind of throws it in
Morris Chestnut's face, and then he's worried about her leaving.
(05:17):
And that's exactly what you want to do. If you
are asking for a raise at work, go out and
find your other options, find those other suitors and figure
out what they're willing to offer you before you go
to your boss and ask for a raise, because then
they know that you're for real that you will leave
if you don't get that raise.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Now, another thing as a woman is you also talk
about being pregnant while at work but getting a promotion,
but not letting them know right away that you were
about to be I think in your second trimester. So
a lot of people talk about how being pregnant and
having a family it does affect women more than men
in the workplace. Yes, and I know a lot of
(05:53):
our listeners can attest to that. Sometimes people put off
having a family because they're like, Oh, I don't want
this to affect you know what they're going to say
about MEO work? Is that going to mean that they're
gonna give me worse reviews? So talk to me about
what that experience was like for you when you were
at work and then you had to go on maternity leave.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yes, I was working for this huge tech firm when
I got pregnant, and I was in the middle of
the promotion process. Like I knew that I was likely
going to get promoted, but I was so afraid to
let people know because I thought that if I told
people that my worst and my chances of getting promoted. So,
you know, I kept it under the lid and I
didn't tell anybody until after my promotion was locked. And
then when I actually went out on attorney leave, I
(06:31):
felt like, you know, I was kind of being I
guess a little bit looked over at work when I
got back that the opportunities weren't as good for me
when I got back to work, But knowing that I
had other options made me feel more confident, because you know,
I think that if you're in a workplace and you
feel like you're not being treated fairly as a mother
or as a pregnant woman, you should know there are
other options for you. There are other workplaces that I mean,
(06:55):
they don't care if you took maternity leave or not
when you're starting a new job. So if you see
yourself from the outside perspective, like what other job could
I get? And I think you'll feel less stuck. You'll
feel like you don't have to endure discrimination or endure
unfair treatment if you know what's available to you.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
You know, I've always said, like when it comes to
my career, I've strived to put myself in a position
where I never felt like I needed to be in
a certain job or in a certain position, to know
that I have other options and to be in the
position at some point where if I decide I didn't
want to have to work, I'll be okay, you know,
And so that's always been valuable for me, but it
took a long time for me to feel that way.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, And I think the hard part is actually understanding
what is that you are what you want out of
a career, because it's not always about having the highest
salary or the best title. Sometimes it's about work life
balance or doing work that's meaningful for your So once
you understand your own values, it's a lot easier to
make decisions that put you closer in alignment with your values.
And then nobody can take that away from you if
you know if you have the things like internally that
(07:56):
you want.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And I want to talk about this.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
This has been a headline that I've been seeing a
lot of different places where more people with high net
worths are renting instead of buying. So I want you
to discuss that with me. Is that really true? Because
I see that headline in a lot of different places.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We're seeing more of that, And it makes a lot
of sense because owning a home, you might be able
to fix your mortgage rate, but there are other costs
that are kind of out of your control, like maintenance costs,
insurance costs, and if you want to have flexibility, then
renting can be easier and if you don't want to
have to fix your own sink, then renting can be easier.
So we're seeing more of these lifestyle renters. Sometimes it's
younger people Gen Z and millennials who feel like they
(08:34):
can't afford a down payment, so they're going to rent
long term. And if you're going to do that, that's fine,
but make sure you keep saving for retirement your other
life goals. And then we're also seeing older people who
have owned a home for years and years selling getting
their equity out and deciding to rent because it's just
a lot easier to do that than to maintain a home.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
And so what was your first home buying experience?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Like, well, I bought a home back what was it
twenty fifteen, and I feel like I was pretty nig
even going into it. I locked into a home before
I realized that I was going to quit my job
in move cities, which is not the best idea. It
was challenging. I feel like next time I bought a home,
I was more aware of what things to look for.
So it's important to do your research ahead of time
(09:16):
and understand the housing market and especially knowing like are
you going to stay in this home? For five years.
That's one of the most important things for building equity.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, you give some valuable information on that too, as
far as purchasing a home and what type of offers
you even should be making depending on what the market
is like.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah. So when I was buying a home in Seattle,
it was a very competitive market and there was a
structure too where there was actually like an auction for
the home where you put in a bid and other
people might be putting in a bid too, so you
have to think about, well, what are other people going
to value this home at. But the most important thing
is to make sure that you're paying a price that
you can actually afford to not get caught up in
the hype. And also there's so many biases that you
(09:54):
might run into, like falling in love with the home
before you actually own the home can put you in
a position where you might do something irrational like overpaying, right.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
That is very true, and especially because they always tell
you like play it cool, you know, with the broker,
because you don't want to be like, oh my god,
I love this house.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Is the house in my dreams and then they're.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Like got them, yes, yes, I saw California.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
The real estate.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
There has been you know, absolutely crazy with this Amanson
text everything happening. I saw, there's been a lot more fraud,
and I think the issue also is that a lot
of people are doing everything online right now, and so
what would you say to people about protecting themselves because
I've seen a lot of stories about this also just
come through where people are like, Okay, there's been people
who are such high level cyber criminals that they're sending
(10:38):
you emails and you really think it's coming from your bank,
and then you're wiring money because it looks just like
an email from your bank. How should people protect themselves?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Well, I think working with an experienced agent is really important.
I know some people feel like they can do it
all themselves, all the informations on a website like redfin,
but having an agent guide you through the process and
tell you what to look out for is really important.
And they will tell you that if you are sending
a wire, make sure you call the bank and confirm
all the wire information, confirm that it's actually going to
(11:06):
the seller. But those little things, I think an agent
can really help you with making a strong offer, identifying
homes that you might have problems making sure they get
an inspection done. All that can save you from a
lot of headaches.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And let's talk about real estate agents for a second,
because people are very confused now about what's going on
with this new ruling from the nar right and so
what does that mean now as far as real estate
agent commissions and what people who are buyers and sellers,
how are they affected by this new ruling.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
So it used to be that if you were buying
a home, you didn't really worry about how your agent
was paid because that would be paid by the seller.
Once you pay the seller, they take a percentage and
give it to the buyer's agent. But that's all changed
now when you are working at the buyer's agent, you
have to agree on how they are paid at that
first tour at least have some guidelines set about how
that will proceed. And a lot of people are intimidating
(12:00):
to buy that because I've never had to consider how
their agent is paid before. But I think it's ultimately
going to be good because people will learn, like what
services to expect out of the agent and understand that
they that they're not free even though the seller was
paying it, you were paying indirectly before, but now it's
a bit more transparent, and it's a bit of a
difficult time because of all the rules are changing. But
I think if you just have an honest conversation with
(12:21):
your agent, talk to multiple agents even and understand what
they're offering, then you can end up getting even a
better deal potentially.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So are we in a situation now where buyers may
be paying agent fees.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Well, some buyers will opt to pay their agent with cash,
and some buyers are going to put in the contract
that they are only basically going to make offers on
homes where the seller will pay the buyer's agent. But
I think this is going to create some shifts in
the market where the people who have cash might be
more successful. That's what we've seen in our data is
(12:53):
that if you're making a cash offer, it's usually more successful.
And if you're telling the seller you don't have to
worry about paying the agent, I'm going to pay the
agent with cash, that might make the offera more successful too.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I think my cash office has always been more successful though,
Like people love an all cash offer, no.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yah way, yes, yeah, And I think if.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
You're not waiting for a bank mortgage to come through,
right right.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I think it's going to be the same way with
the agents, where people who are kind of paying the
agent and not asking the seller to pay might be
more successful, which might create some more inequalities in the market.
But we'll see how that plays out. That was one
concern about these new rule changes.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Now, another thing that I've been noticing is Miami. The
real estate.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Market in Florida too, by the way, in general, yes,
but with the condos, right and now there's been a
new law in Florida, and I see there's been a
lot of condos that are on the market, some of
these older condos because the HOA fees are about to
go up.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yes there are, there are already going up, and it's
because of this law change. If people remember, there was
this huge condo colops, the surf side condo clops that
happened a couple of years ago, and after that was investigated,
they determined that we need stricter rules for these condo buildings,
so they're actually maintaining the properties. And it kind of
go back to climate change because the reason was erosion essentially,
(14:03):
and we're probably going to see more storms, more rainfall,
more basically maintenance that needs to be done on homes
and condos and that's going to make it more costly
for homeowners and it's gonna unfortunately suppress home values and sales.
And that's what we're seeing so far. This is kind
of early days. We're also hearing from our agents about
how insurance costs are going up in Florida and how
that's been really difficult for home buyers to wrap their
(14:24):
heads around just how expensive home insurance is. And right
now it's really a Florida problem in parts of Texas,
but I think this is going to be more of
a national problem, how expensive insurances and how expensive, yeah,
it is to maintain a home.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
And I'm nervous about all of this and HOA fees.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I want to discuss HOA fees and so those are
never negotiable, right like when you are buying something, the
hoafee is what it is? What responsibility to does your
HIA have Because I hear a lot of people complain about, well,
I'm paying all these fees, but what is it going
towards and what are they even doing?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
How do you hold them accountable?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Well, if there is a home owners association and you
buy into that, you will become a voting member. So
it's important to keep up and attend those meetings and
understand what's in the documents. The documents should tell you
how much money the HOA has in savings, how much
they expect to be spending on maintenance or other expenses
for the condo building or the home association. So read
(15:20):
those documents and be like a good citizen is how
I would put it, and vote for the types of
investments that you think are going to increase your home value.
Hoas that usually have a leader who is making all
the decisions, but sometimes those leaders aren't so great, so
it's important to keep on top of it and hold
them accountable for the things that they're supposed to.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Do, kind of like voting in general. Exactly exactly, but complain.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
But it's like, are you going out and voting, Are
you going to any of these meetings? Are you holding
people accountable who are in office that is supposed to
handle things for you? How do you think this election
is going to affect things? Like, Okay, let's just say
when God willing win Kamala Harris wins, right.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
How do you think that will affect the market?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
If you had to predict, well, Harris has an extensive
housing plan. She's talking about building three million homes in
her first term, and we've seen the numbers and the
housing shortage is around four million homes, So that's going
to put a huge debt in the housing crisis. She
plans to accomplish that by giving subsidies to builders and
eliminating red tape when it comes to new construction, and
(16:22):
also giving down payment assistance to first time buyers twenty
five thousand dollars in down payment assistance. It's a really
big plan and all the pieces kind of work with
one another. We'll see what happens with Congress, because when
something goes through Congress, it has to be negotiated, and
we'll see what happens in the final bill. But I'm
just so excited that a presidential candidate is talking about
housing and talking about solutions that will actually work, because
(16:43):
for the longest time, politicians have kind of been like
lying to us. They've been telling us that this is
going to solve the housing crisis when economists know that
it won't. But for the first time, a presidential candidate
is talking about the housing crisis the way that housing
experts and economists talk about the housing market and.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
What is Danna Chump's plan.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It's a little bit hard to understand the things that
he's topic.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Can understand both sides, right.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So one thing that Trump has talked about time and
time again is protecting the suburbs and not letting low
income housing go into the suburbs. And I think there's
a lot of dog whistles going on there, but it's
basically the opposite of what you would want have a
housing solution. He's saying that he's not going to support
these new housing units that could potentially be affordable to
(17:28):
protect those single family suburban neighborhoods.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
He's also talked about cutting red tape the way that
Harris has, but he hasn't been as specific. It's a
little disappointing because I know he's supposed to be a builder,
but he hasn't had this build, build, build message that
the Democrats have had.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Right, A lot of people will discuss, oh, this isn't
getting done, that's not getting done, But the main thing
they say is not in my backyard. I do not
want this happening in my backyard. How do you get
around that? Because, like you said, there is a you know,
we all see this housing crisis that's happening right now,
and we do need to build in a lot of times.
In these suburbs is a lot more space than there
is in the city, but people are so against having
(18:05):
developments and things built and affordable housing where they live. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I talk about this in my book. It really comes
back to like economics and game theory. People are making
decisions for themselves are basically being selfish. They think that
if I bought this home in this neighborhood, then I
get to control everything that happens in the neighborhood. I
don't want new people coming in. I don't want you know,
apartment buildings or different types of people. And it's really selfish,
I think to put that over people who are housing
(18:31):
and secure, people who are potentially like won't be able
to commute to their job or won't be able to
access schools. Some of these suburbs have the best schools,
and unfortunately, because of the way that housing has segregated,
how you have to spend you know, five hundred thousand
dollars even a million dollars to buy into certain neighborhoods.
That exclude certain families from participating in those schools. So
I think it's really important for people to see the
(18:51):
big picture and kind of think beyond their own preferences.
It's more important that people have housing. That is that,
you know, you don't have to deal with more more
people at the super Yeah, more people at the supermarkets,
stilly things like that.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Now, do we expect these rates to come down even more?
Because I see people are still sitting waiting, like, okay,
you know right now the rates are going down, but
it's gonna go down even more, that's the expectation.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yes, we're forecasting that rates will continue to go down,
not by a whole lot. I think people are hoping
that it'll go back to this three or four percent.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I don't know, people forget that before that it's never
been right right that low.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay, yeah, I think that we'll get down to around
five and a half percent for a thirty year fixed
rate mortgage by the end of next year. Right now,
mortgage rates are at around six point one percent, so
not a huge drop, but it is back to kind
of normal territory. That's around the rates that we saw
in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen when the housing market was
in you know, a more affordable place. Unfortunately, prices are
much higher now right, So even though rates are coming
(19:46):
down that makes things more affordable. What will, unfortunately happen
is more people will get into the housing market, more
people will be competing and bidding up homes, and we'll
see prices go up again. The only way to really
get out of this is to build more housing.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Now. I got to ask you, you know, early on
you discuss how your dad your grandmother did not feel
like economics was the right move for you. Your grandmother
even said even to find a husband, yes, that was
the best major.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I thought that engineers make the best husbands. That business
people are too they're too obsessed with status.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But how do they feel now?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Well, unfirst till my grandmother has passed away. My dad
is obviously very proud of me and how far I've come.
I think he would admit that I made the right decision.
I think that's the advice I would give to most
young people is pursue what you're passionate about, what really
gets you excited, because that's what's going to get you
through those challenges. Even if I decided to be an engineer.
I'm sure I would have faced challenges too, but having
that drive and like knowing what I wanted, I think
(20:41):
that helped get me through even those challenges.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Now I know we can pre order the book Hate
the Game? Now, when does the book come out?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
April Eleventh's actually coming out on the twenty year anniversary
of Freakonomics.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Oh wow, was that planned?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Very coincidentally.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
No, But it's amazing how And I'm telling you guys,
like I haven't finished the entire book yet, but you
can see I've been reading it and it's fascinating to
me because I do love understanding how different things affect
the decisions that we make. And you know, I'm all
about like my financial wellness and always trying to level up.
And so I think that for anybody, this book is
(21:17):
something that is very relatable because you talk about your
own life situations, you talk about going to school, you
talk about after that, but all of those things that
can help people understand all the different ways that you
should make decisions. You can make decisions.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, and I hope it's fun too. I talk about Beyonce,
I talk about all the things that I enjoy in life.
That make economics fun. So I hope that people enjoy it.
It should be an enjoyable read and hopefully you learn
a lot too.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I'm telling you, guys, if you see how she loved
the book, I guarantee you there's going to be people
that are like, this is the book that inspire me.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
So I told you this.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
When I first met you, I was like, if I
would have met you when I was younger, I probably
would have been like, I want to be an economist
because you're the only person I've seen that looks like
this in this position, like a woman, you know, a
black woman that is doing this, and so I just
feel like sometimes they always say if you could see it,
you could be it, and it was never anything that
I would have even considered.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
But you make it cool.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Thank you, Thank you. That's the goal, and you make
me cool. All right.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, you guys, pre order this book now. I love
every time you come up here. I always tell you
when you come into town, I need you to always
come and sit down with me because so many different
things should one more thing, because you know, I have
my real estate license, but people acted like it was
a bad time for me to even do that. Because
it's so different now and that it's been a lot
harder for realtors to even make money. What's your take
(22:33):
on that like the future of real estate agents.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Well, I think the housing market is going to pop
off next year now that rates are down, so there'll
be more activity for agents, and the role of agents
is changing. I think that now that people are going
to have to negotiate with their buyer's agent up front,
buyers agents will have to show their value, will have
to say what they're going to do that the other
agent won't do in terms of taking you on tours
or educating you about the process or having you have
the best offer. I think people are going to understand
(22:58):
more what agents are bringing to the table, which will
hopefully make agents better off too that you know they
are being valued directly instead of indirectly.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
All right, all right, well, Daryl Fairweather again, make sure
you pre order Hate the Game It comes out April eleventh.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Hate the Game book dot Com. Okay, Hate the Game
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Book dot Com, Go there and put your pre order
in its way up, way up,
Host
Angela Yee
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