Little Panic

Jen talks to author Amanda Stern about her memoir, 'Little Panic.'

They bond over having panic attacks as kids and talk about how using anxious coping mechanisms throughout childhood can affect our relationships later in life.

To get Amanda's books or subscribe to her free mental health newsletter, "How To Live" go here: Amandastern.bulletin.com

For more information on Jen Kirkman, the host of Anxiety Bites, please go here: jenkirkman.bio.link

Anxiety Bites is distributed by the iHeartPodcast Network and co-produced by Dylan Fagan and JJ Posway.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I'm
your host, Jen Kirkman. Today's guest is author Amanda Stern.
She wrote a memoir that came out called Little Panic
Dispatches from an Anxious Life, And yeah, today we talk

(00:31):
a lot about being kids with anxiety and panic disorders
that were not diagnosed when we were little. And you know,
I was thinking, oh, should the December episodes have like
a Christmas or a holiday theme or something, And I
just didn't really work out that way. You know, I
did a lot of these interviews in advance. But the

(00:51):
one thing I will say to um any kind of
holiday theme here is that obviously, when we're traveling for
the holidays, we may go back to our eildhood homes,
we may reconnect with the child inside of us and
all that kind of thing. And so I guess this
episode is dedicated to the little kid in me that
had no idea what she was going through. And I'm
not saying it was like traumatic all the time. It really,

(01:13):
to be honest, I don't know if for the most part,
I remember too many feelings of going, oh, hey, my childhood,
I'm always panicking. It wasn't like that, you know. But
when I did a panic attacks, I certainly, I'm pretty
sure I thought I was the only one having this stuff,
or definitely the only kid. And oddly Amanda and I,
as we learned, had sort of just missed, uh being

(01:37):
in the same kind of world in New York City. Um,
she was sort of in the comedy world for a
little while. She grew up in New York City. I
came to New York in the late nineties and she
was there, but I just missed kind of. She used
to run a storytelling show that perhaps I would have done,
but she started it after I had already moved away.
And but it's just funny to think that there's this

(01:57):
little kid panicking in Boston, and then there's another little
kid panicking in New York City, and how many kids
all over America were panicking, and nobody knew what the
hell it was. You know, and you grow up and
you figure it out. And I don't know, there's something
I don't know what I mean. It sounds too hokey,
But but where I'm saying to the little kid and mey, hey,
you know what, you were totally normal all along. There
was a thing, there was a name for what you had.

(02:19):
And there is a New York Times article about Amanda's
book and they talk about how because one of the
themes in her book is that as a kid, she
totally wished she had something on the outside wrong with
her so that people could see it and diagnose it.
And in the book she writes this is after she
got her panic and anxiety diagnosis when she was a
little older. I've spent my entire life battling some impossible,

(02:40):
invisible plague no one ever seemed to see. And this
guy did it with such ease, as though panic disorder
is easy to establish, obvious to anyone who would take
the time to ask what my symptoms were. So we
talk all about panic disorder sort of from a little
kid's point of view, you know, where it's like, are
the adults thinking about all of the terrible things that
could happen to me? You know, and and why aren't
they solving this? And in a weird way, when you

(03:03):
have anxiety, it's like you're not wrong in a way
to go, you know, what if this thing falls, what
if that? What if this but you're training yourself to
think in this disordered way. And reading her book, I
had this epiphany that when you have panic disorder as
a kid, and you you do all of these coping
mechanisms that aren't ruling what you should be doing, but

(03:23):
it's the best you know how to do. So you
might avoid certain things. You might really obsess over things
and worry about them because you think that's somehow going
to give you some control. It can make you a
little bit of a self focused person, and I think
that can come off sort of self centered in the
bad way if you're still using those coping mechanisms as

(03:44):
you get older, or you're not really sure. I know,
for me, I was always so focused on feeling better
after panic attacks. It just it didn't dawn on me
like I think fully why people had romantic relationships. I
think there was a big part of my early life
where I thought, you have them to feel safe in
the world, you know, and I know, to an extent,
like in a lovely way. Of course, any relationship we have,

(04:04):
whether it's a deep friendship or whatever, of course we feel,
you know, tethered to our existence by these people that
know us and see us. And reflect back with us
and tell us we're okay and all that. But in
the literal sense, you don't just grab someone to have
a relationship with and think you'll make everything okay. That's
just nobody else's responsibility. And you know, there's there's all

(04:25):
these things I've I've looked up and and and in
the work I did over the years to stop looking
at relationships that way, and I don't look at them
that way anymore, of course, But not once in all
of the work I did that was specific to romantic relationships,
did I did ever done? I mean, well, a lot
of this is just kind of like disordered behavior from
having undiagnosed panic for a long time. You know, It's

(04:47):
just like sometimes the littlest thing hits you. You read
something and you think, oh, I have a new perspective
on something I went through. And again, as someone who's
been working on anxiety and all of this for so long,
I do every once in a while think that I
have nothing left to learn. And it's fun to read
someone's book and think, wow, this just spoke to me.
I've never looked at my own life this way before.

(05:09):
And so Amanda and I talked about that as well,
but I'm always excited when I find out, oh, this
is a way that having panic and anxiety affected me.
I mean maybe for some people that's depressing. They would think, God,
I don't want to keep being reminded of things I
screwed up later in life, you know, like, oh, that
was because I had panic disorder when I was told.
But for me, I just I don't know. I like

(05:30):
to connect dots and create new narratives and just figure
things out. You know. It's sort of like the a
continuation of of what I liked doing as a kid,
just trying to figure things out. But now I feel
like it's in a healthier way. There's more of a curiosity.
I don't need to figure it out. It's all good.
But back then it was like, you know, let's just
let's just figure this out. This meaning I don't know

(05:51):
what life safety, how do we stay safe? And the
obviously the key is the more we let go, which
was not an option for me back when I was little.
So it was such a joy to talk to Amanda,
And this episode is dedicated to all the little kids
out there who maybe panicking and have no idea what
it is and if you're a parent, Um, really listen
hard to this episode and try to try to notice,

(06:12):
try to notice your kids. And I don't. I don't know.
I don't know what you do. If I were a parent,
I'd be constantly like, if you have panic disorder, let
me know. And my kids would be like, I don't
know what that is. I I will, but I don't
know what you're saying. Are you pay? Do you feel
like you can't breathe? Do you feel like you know?
I don't. I would give them panic disorder because they'd
be like, my mom keeps asking about this panic disorder
and it's actually making me feel short of breath. That's

(06:34):
the other interesting things. Amanda and I don't have kids,
but we feel like really compassionate towards kids about anxiety.
And she we talked in the interview she wrote a
great newsletter about what to do if your child has
panic disorder. So we'll talk about it in there, and
of course I'll link to everything in the show notes.

(06:54):
But um, yes, obviously. Amanda is the author of Little Panic.
It's her most recent book, a memoir about growing up
with an undiagnosed panic disorder. She's now a mental health advocate,
speaker and advisory board member for Bring Change to Mind.
As a writer, she lives in Brooklyn, as she's required to.
That's a joke on her website. She's the author of
The Long Haul and eleven books for children, written under

(07:17):
the pseudonyms A. J. Stern and Fiona Rosenbloom. In two
thousand three, she founded the legendary Happy Ending Music and
reading series, which required creative artists to take risks on stage.
The multidisciplinary series became the gold standard for literary events.
Many of today's series are knowingly and unknowingly based Unhappy
Endings model. The series ended in It was produced at

(07:40):
Joe's Pub and later at Symphony Space and again. Her
most recent book is Little Panic, that we will be
talking about now and all information about Amanda will be
linked to in the show notes. But enjoy our chat.
I am here with Amanda. Start Amandaster and thank you
for being on Anxiety Bites. Thanks for having me. We

(08:00):
have very similar childhood brains, I'll say, even if our
childhoods were different. Um and Amanda Stern is the author
of the wonderful uh memoir called Little Panic. Dispatches from
an Anxious Life, but Um, your book Little Panic Dispatches
from an Anxious Life is I hope this is a compliment.

(08:23):
I mean it as one. It's the Uncut Gems of Books.
Does that make sense? Do you know that movie? I don't. Okay.
It's an Adam Sandler movie that came out last year,
and the directors of this film are known for making
movies that make you feel like so in it when
you're watching them that you're like stressed out in your
heart rates up. But that's part of it. Good, um.

(08:45):
And what I love about your writing is that you're
not writing it from Hello, I'm Amanda the adult and
this is what it was like as a child, Like
you're talking to us as your childhood self. Do you
like how I'm explaining your book to you? Like you could?
I do? I? Actually I would like this for my
entire life. I would like someone to walk with me,
side by side and explain the entire world to me

(09:08):
step by step. This is actually like very soothing. Well
I feel like I'm being a man splainer, but I
really am just saying this through the listen. Um. But
what I like about it is that it just it
just gets you in the heart, you know, and then
at certain points you go, oh my god, there's so
many anxious thoughts. But what I love about it is
when you read someone's memoir, I'm always like, how do

(09:30):
they remember this? You know, it'll be like I was
twelve years old and the girl who sat next to
me had a pink shirt on, and it's not a
very traumatic story. It's just a detail that they remember.
And I think, I don't remember anything from my life
at all, but I remember every single anxious thought I've had.
And I believe, not that I did. Don't believe people's memoirs,

(09:51):
but I know I didn't ask myself while reading your book,
how did she remember this? I know how you can't.
It's it's in your body, right, So so I don't know.
I'm gonna stop talking and let you be interviewed here.
But I guess that's probably want to start is childhood,
undiagnosed panic and anxiety. Um, that was your life, And

(10:15):
I guess what I want to say is take me through.
I think something that was so interesting in the book
is you talk a lot about your relationship with your
mother and how you would say, well, what's going to happen?
You know, are you going to die or are we
ever going to lose the house, And she would just
say no, these things aren't going to happen, which I
think is really sweet instinct to try to soothe you.

(10:37):
But I think what us anxious people realize is that's
not true. Like we know bad things are happening and
we are disordered, and how much we want to plan
for it. But it makes it worse when you tell
us that's never going to happen, and then it does.
It's like you have just now set the foundation for
our world to shatter. Right, So can you talk to
me about your relationship with your mother and what what

(10:59):
you think she should have done differently and and what
it was like as a kid who had so many questions? Yeah, um, well,
you know, first, I want to say that I think
that what I would like people to understand about anxiety,
for the people who don't really understand it, especially childhood anxiety,

(11:20):
is that it's the uncertainty that is so distressing. And
when a child is constantly asking what if, what if?
What if? What they're actually asking for is can you
give me some certainty either way, either it's yes, this
bad thing happens, or you know, yes, uh, this good

(11:44):
thing happens, you know, or no, none of this happens.
But they're asking for a sense of certainty. And that
doesn't mean it needs to be positive, it just needs
to be honest. So I think that for me as
a kid, I was um sort of gripped with fear
about the unknown. And when you know you're in that grip,

(12:07):
you really the unknown becomes a type of extinction, a
type of death. Not knowing equal death. And so if
I could have someone explained to me what happens, if
this happens, then I would feel less like I was
going towards death. Then I would have the sort of
tools and the skills too, and the steps to you know,

(12:31):
address my kidnapper I got kidnapped or you know. So
I really wanted clarity about these scary things. It wasn't
that I needed someone to say, don't worry, these things
won't happen. I needed someone to say, Okay, here are there,
here's here the steps should something happen. It's interesting because

(12:55):
you grew up in New York City. I mean, it's
strange to me that your mom didn't have you know,
and in the eighties, it's like at least where I
grew up in the suburbs, it was very much we're
going to talk about strangers with vans, and you're going
to need a password. And my mom's thing was growing
up in the eighties was don't get in a car
with anyone unless they have the password that you and

(13:15):
your family have the verbal password, you know, like potatoes
and my mom because we don't need a password because
no one is ever picking uump except me a your father.
So when I's doing passwords, so my mom always went
like an extra step that was I don't know if
that was good or bad, but it just cracked me
up because, uh, you know, people would ask me what's

(13:37):
your password and they think my parents were bad parents,
and I'm like, well, there's because I'm never getting in
a car with anyone period. You know, even if if
my leg is brokelyn, I probably wouldn't have gotten in
an ambulance one came by. But but so it's interesting
to me that that your mom didn't say like, oh, well,
when you walk down the street, I mean nothing, There
was never any content like was she what was her problem? Was?

(13:58):
There was some stuff where she would say, you know,
there were some tips like, well, if someone is following you,
go into the first store that you see, like that
was helpful. Um, you know, but I think it took
a lot of badgering for me to get there. And
I think it's because what I have figured out is
that my mother didn't want me to have to suffer

(14:21):
with discomfort because she can't deal with discomfort. Discomfort in
her own body is so awful that she wanted to
spare me from that. And and in doing so, what
she did was she made it so that I also
became afraid of discomfort in my body. Um. And so

(14:46):
she did not how to do for herself what would
have helped me. Right, So it's not like she has
the answer and just not telling you to protect exactly,
you're probably freaking her out with all your questions, right,
And it's yeah, she doesn't know, she doesn't know, she
didn't know, And you know, my mom is very smart,
but she's incredibly um naive and she you know, she's

(15:15):
always had other people do things for her because she hasn't.
I think she's very overwhelmed by having to figure things
out on her own, so she doesn't really try. She
asks other people to do it. So she's not really
learning how to do things for herself, and I am
the opposite, Um, because I need information. I need information.

(15:41):
I need to learn how to overcome, you know, being
held back in the ways that I'm held back because
I don't want to be helpless. UM. So it's just
an it's an interesting dynamic. UM. But as a child
it was similar because I wanted to learn. I wanted
to know. I wanted to know everything, and she didn't know. So,

(16:06):
you know, it was just it was difficult. And my dad,
you know, he mocked everything. So when I would ask him,
you know, I adopted or am I this, he would
make jokes and so I never got an answer from him. UM.
So in some ways, that like it made me into
a person who is constantly reading, constantly studying, constantly learning,

(16:29):
constantly seeking, constantly you know, trying to grow and um.
And I appreciate that about myself. You know, Um, I
can maybe go off the deep end of it, um,
but I still appreciate that that's a part of my life.
I just don't like the way I got there. I

(16:50):
don't like the way I got here either in terms
of like how many years I suffered unnecessarily and I
love information. I mean don't I'm always like, don't bullshit me.
And I think that's the problem with anxiety. Those sometimes
we think we're right and it's like, don't bullshit me here,
and no one's I'm trying to think of a solid
example from my life where it's like I'm over predicting

(17:12):
everything that could possibly happen because I don't want to.
I don't want to be taken by surprise. And it's like,
sometimes you're gonna be taken by surprise, you know, right, yeah,
And it's you know, that's sort of overthinking is like
a strategy to deal with uncertainty, but it doesn't work.
It doesn't work because you're not gonna be able to

(17:33):
stop the surprise. But you can, as you know, deal
with what happens when you feel surprised and understand what
happens in your body, that flooded emotional feeling you get
when you get that phone called like oh my god,
did someone die or you know. But I know a
lot of friends now who are having kids, and I
watched them and I'm just sort of going, you, guys,

(17:54):
this is a huge waste of time. They are doing
everything they can to prevent their children from having anxiety.
It's horrible anxious. They're doing it all wrong. We'll be
right back. So let's say this, whether it's you're just

(18:16):
any kid, the kids asking their mom, okay, well we
will we always live in this house. Are you gonna
die someday? Blah blah blah, and we all say like, gee,
it would have been great if they were just honest
with us. But you, you weren't the average kid, like
you had anxiety. So do you think though that your
anxious brain? It is almost like saying, oh, it would

(18:37):
have been better at this, but are you right about that?
Like would your anxious brain have been able to handle
if she told you the truth about something? Or would
you would the goal post keep moving you like? And
then one't? You know? I think it would keep moving.
But I think that it would have taught me a
little bit more about how to um that everything has steps,

(18:59):
you know, and and it would have taught me how
to sort of figure some stuff out for myself or
ask myself, well, what will happen then? And then what?
And then what and then what. I didn't even have
the opportunity to say and then what because there was
no answer to anything, so everything was possible, and that
was just too much. So I think that, yes, I

(19:20):
think I would have been soothed by her answer for
a day or two, and then there would have been
new questions, and then there would have been new questions.
But I do think that ultimately it would have taught
me how to do for myself what I needed someone
else to do for me, you know what I mean. Yeah,
And and you know, one of my I mean, it's favorite,

(19:42):
it's upsetting, but it's still really well done. Part of
the book is the little boy that went missing between
a m and ten what was his name again, Aton
pats At Pats and he, you know, he goes missing
and you're just like, wait a minute, I mean, you're
you know, obsessed with that, and people keep saying, oh, hell,

(20:02):
he's not missing, he'll come home. But what was really
shocking to me was, you know, you're you're right, you know,
he nobody at school noticed he wasn't there. It wasn't
like at eight eleven they realized he was missing. The
rest of the day they it took them to realize
he was missing. Where was the bus driver, where's the
you know, the teachers? And then when you said the
cops came to your house too, I don't know, look
around or look on the room, and you're going, well,

(20:24):
why aren't they looking in there? They're not being good lookers.
It's it's so cute as a kid, but you're like, no,
but this is this is something I would always just
kind of insist on when I was younger and when
I was anxious, and I still do it. Sometimes it's
not a great quality I have, but I'm like, I'm right,
I know, I'm right. You guys aren't doing a good
enough job at keeping the world a safe place. Like

(20:45):
let me run this. Yeah, it's really difficult. It's really challenging,
and when you're a kid, it's overwhelming in a very
different way because you're realizing with the sinking feeling, oh
my god, you're people I'm trusting, Like you're you're the
ones because your cumps, you're you're actually supposed to save

(21:08):
my life. And you are not even looking under the
beds or in the closet like you're you're on a roof.
For what is a six year old going to be
doing on a roof? You know, how's he gonna get there? How?
That's not where you look, dudes. So yeah, I just
felt like no one knew what they were doing, and

(21:30):
I didn't even really know what I was doing, but
I knew when people were, you know, doing shit wrong,
and I didn't know what to do about that. Yeah,
that's true. I did. I did say that a lot
of times we think we're right, and I think it's
it's more like I may not know what to do either,
but I know you guys don't and not making me

(21:51):
out here because you know, growing up in the eighties,
it was it was always on TV. Um, you know,
mutually short destruction, nuclear war, blah blah and that. Yeah.
I don't know if you remember that made for TV
movie the day after. Um, yes, I do, you have
very much. It sounds like you have a big connection
to it. Oh, yes I do. Um. Well, I actually

(22:15):
never watched it because, um, because I knew what it
was about and I was already terrified because my teacher
would have us run these drills where she would like
start yelling and say like the bombs are coming, the
bombs are coming, and we would have to hide under
our desk and um, and she was like, you know,

(22:36):
nuclear war is going to happen in World War Three,
And then everybody was talking about this movie and I
was like, I can't even breathe. Yeah, you know, just
thinking about annihilation and everyone is going to sit and
watch it and then bring it back to school and
talk about it. I can't. I can't bear it. Like

(22:57):
I couldn't even tolerate the thought of absolute annihilation, um
much less watch it. So to this day, I've never
seen it. Well, it's funny. It's like the one example
of just lie to your kids about that, because trust me,
when the bomb comes, it'll be over in twenty five minutes, right,
like your grandmother's gonna die, your mom's going to sell

(23:20):
the house. Uh, you know, don't lie to your kids
about that because when that stuff happens, it will be shocking.
But a lot of them about nuclear or tell them,
is that ever gonna happen? Exactly? There are certain things
where like when it actually you know, when there's something
that can be done about it. You know, there's nothing
you can do about death, but there's something you can
do about explaining to your kids what will happen after

(23:43):
you die? Or you know, how where if you know,
if if you if I die and you're still a child.
Here's what will happen, you know, here's where you'll go,
here's where you'll live, all those things, Like it's terrifying,
but it's less terrifying than not knowing. But the big things,

(24:05):
the global things. Yeah, no, keep that fucking ship to yourself, exactly.
It's funny. We had the opposite experience. So I had
a teacher who her whole life was denial. She was
she was not a good teacher in many ways. Um,
not good with kids, not good with little girls. Um.
And she sent a note home saying, don't watch this movie.
It could traumatize your kids. Now, that's seems good. But

(24:29):
I brought it home and my mother was like, no,
we are living in reality. Made them watch this movie,
you know, and my mom had panic and anxiety. My grandmother,
did you know it's genetic? Of course, she didn't know
what was called that at the time. She's just now
at eighty two accepting the word anxiety. She used to say, hormones, hormones, hormones,
Oh my god. So I'm sure it was to you know,

(24:49):
certain phases of life. But I think the shame of
the word has been lifted. But anyway, so my parents
and I sat down and watched it, and you know,
I wanted to I I wanted the in amation and
and my parents would not run drills in a scary
way like the bombs were coming. But we had the
worst jinkiest hinkiest contingency plan for nuclear war, which was

(25:10):
put on these plastic like helmets that weren't even real helmets.
They were like from you know, like a plastic softball game,
and go in the basement. And we lived in an
old house from the eighteen hundreds in Massachusetts, and that
that was our plan. And I remember my parents arguing
amongst themselves about it, and my mother going, run, the

(25:32):
radiation can seep right through this wood, and then my
dad going, Joe, and they're not gonna bomb Massachusetts. They're
gonna bomb the White House and that's very far away.
We'll we'll at the very least just get some mild
radiation in the air and we'll just have to stay
inside for a while. And it was just so funny
watching them, Oh my god, argue about this, Like I

(25:53):
remember going, so you guys don't not only do you
guys don't know what you're doing. You're held yeah, you're
you're so who's soothing me? And we're all just a
bunch of anxious people, you know. But what was so interesting,
and this goes back to childcare, is because of watching
that movie, I was intolerant of anyone pretending it wasn't real.

(26:16):
And so the next day we went on a field
trip to this place called Plymouth Plantation where the you know,
Plymouth Rock they all landed there. And it's a bunch
of people, probably people just out of acting school, who
are dressed up pretending they are pilgrims and they and
the fun game of it for everyone is you say
to them, do you know what the VCR is? And

(26:37):
they say, no, I'm milking a cow, you know. And
so we're there and I had a panic attack on
the bus on the way there because we were stuck
in traffic. And in the movie the day after, there's
a scene where everybody's trying to leave and they're stuck
in traffic and the bomb hits and everybody just turns
into a skeleton in their car. Sorry, So I had

(26:58):
just watched that. Now I'm on a bus and extent
I'm having one of my first panic attacks. The breathing
I can't breathe. I feel like I'm going crazy, and
I'm I don't know what to do, and I keep
getting under the seat because it just that makes me
feel safe, like tight spaces. And I kept getting in
trouble with the bus driver and I couldn't say, you know,

(27:20):
I'm dying. And then and we get to the plantation
and everyone's like, do you know what to uh TV is?
And they're like, no, I'm milking a cow. And I
see a fallout shelter sign and you know, they were
everywhere back then, but it was really just you know,
and then a plane flute kind of too low over heads.
It was near an airport, and I just started panicking
and I was like, can you please stop pretending, like

(27:41):
screaming at them, like please stop pretending. It's the sixteen hundreds,
like there's a nuclear war while gonna we're all gonna die.
And I got in trouble from that teacher. I just
sit on the bus the rest of the field trip
by myself, and she called my parents and it's like,
can you imagine that happening today? Like that person would
be destroyed on Twitter in half an hour and fired,

(28:04):
and it was like there was no world where someone
went maybe seving a panic attack, like just none, and
we were so utterly alone. And and how that, like
I'm just now learning to accept like that did change
my brain. I hate that it did. But there's ways
I don't There's ways I had to learn to function.

(28:26):
That took way too long, you know. Oh yeah, I
mean I'm still learning how to function. It's it makes
it makes me really sad though about um kids and
so you in your newsletter you wrote, and I want
to get back to fun things in your book, like
punk rock and relationships, but you wrote, um, you have
a great newsletter called how to Live and it's a

(28:47):
free mental health newsletter. Everyone can sign up at Amanda
sterned up bulletin dot com. And it's a post you wrote,
how to help a child during a panic attack. Can
you just tell me, just tell us all how to
do it? Because I think this is the most important
thing in the world. And I'm sure people out there,
I'm sure your kids are having panic attacks and you
don't even know it because it doesn't look like people

(29:08):
think it does. Sometimes it just looks like you're sitting
there quietly. Yeah, I mean, the main the main thing
is I mean, it's funny because the piece is really
it's it's titled how to help your kid, but a
lot of it is like, don't do this, don't do that.
So I think I've become very focused on what not
to do UM before I get focused on what to do,

(29:31):
because I think that what not to do that I
think what people end up doing is more harmful. You know,
then they obviously intended to be. UM. So when your
kid is having a panic attack and you know that
that's what's happening, UM, don't deny that experience. You know,

(29:53):
don't tell your child who is you know, freaking out
and unable to breathe or you know, is inconsolable, that
they're fine. Don't tell them not to worry. Don't tell
them you know that it's okay, that everything's okay, because
it's not. Nothing feels okay. Things will become okay and

(30:14):
they will become fine. But in that moment, they're not.
They don't feel fine, they don't think they're fine. And
your job as a parent is to say, I know
you don't feel fine right now, and that's okay because
we'll get through we'll get through this and then you'll
feel fine when this ends. And this will end. It

(30:37):
always ends, you know. I think that some of the
things that parents can do for their kids in a
panic attack is is, if they're hyperventilating, to breathe with them, UM,
to do the four seven eight, which is four inhales
and if inhale to on four counts and then hold
for seven counts and then exhale for eight counts and

(31:00):
um that um sort of kicks in your parasympathetic nervous
system to calm down, to calm your body down. UM.
So breathing is, obviously, you know, a great thing to do.
Another thing to do is to have visualizations and to say,
you know, imagine you're breathing in like blue, cool, healthy,

(31:21):
calm air and you're exhaling red, mad, you know, bad
feeling air, and give them a job because they need
to get out of their head and they also need
to feel more control of their body. So if you
give them a job to do that you do with them,

(31:41):
then they have something else to focus on. Would that
job be like the breathing you mean or do you yes,
that's what I mean? No, I mean like the breathing
You said something about um, tell them that it's a
false alarm, you know, right, yes you could, um, you know,
explain to them, um that when you have panic and anxiety,

(32:02):
you're overreacting to something. It feels like it's dangerous, but
it's not dangerous. And that that you know, just because
you feel something this strongly doesn't mean it's a fact.
Just because you feel like, um, you're going crazy, it's
not actually a fact that you're going crazy. Just like
you because you feel like you're dying and your body

(32:24):
is closing down, it's not a fact. And you can
point out, I know you feel like you're you know,
you can't breathe. But I'm sitting here and I'm watching
your your chest rise and fall, I'm watching the breath
come out of you. I'm I am your witness, and
I am not having a panic attack, and I can
see that you are. You know, your body is doing

(32:46):
exactly what it's supposed to be doing, and it's your
brain that is making a thinking mistake. And we can
get out of that. We can move through this. So
you know, things like that, I think are are often
pretty helpful. Just don't deny the experience, you know, just
sort of point things out to alleviate the terror. The

(33:09):
co breathing is so important, you know. I remember when
I was in uh, I don't know, my late teens,
I developed a really terrible fear of flying. I only
flew once a year with my parents to go on
like to Disney World or whatever, and I had stopped
going so of the panic attacks. And I think my
mom probably realized so this might affect her life in
some way, and she found this class for me to

(33:31):
take UM at the airport top by a psychiatrist. You know,
all these things that we were going to do, very
much exposure therapy, but learning to breathe and all that.
But anyway, he give us these take home tapes and yes,
cassette tapes, and I played in my little boom box
and you had to um lay on the floor and
do body scan UM progressive muscle relaxation breathing and it

(33:52):
was fun, you know. It was actually we had to
do it pre not preemptively is not the word, but
you know, every night for up an hour, whether you're
anxious or not. And I would just lay on the
floor and do it. My parents would join me because
it was just like fun. It was like something funded
is great. I don't think they thought were coregulating. You know,
they weren't doing that, but it just it made me

(34:13):
feel like this wasn't just my problem, but a thing
that could benefit everybody. I will I'm gonna say this.
I don't know what your relationship is with your mom,
but um, to me, from what you you said something
earlier that struck me, and to me, she sounds like
she was an excellent mother when it came to this

(34:35):
particular topic. Because what you said something you've referenced her
about the nuclear war where you said that she's she said, no,
we're gonna we're gonna face reality. We're gonna deal with reality.
And that is the number one thing that a child
with anxiety needs help with, because a child with anxiety

(34:58):
is terrified of reality and it's you know, they're they're
so caught in the what IF's and the what IF's
and the spiraling you know, into terror and imagination, and
they need you know, terrible pun a pilot has. I'm
gonna help them steer through reality. And what your mom
did was she actually took your hand and said, here,

(35:23):
here's how we're gonna face reality. We're gonna you know,
watch this movie We're gonna I'm gonna give you. She
provided you with information, yeah you needed, And I think
that's amazing. It is, and I think at times, you know,
my parents did it. God bless them. I mean we're
still we're all really close, but they did it in
like a disordered way, you know, like it's like when

(35:46):
I thought I was having a heart attack, she validated that,
but it's like, you know, she took me to the
hospitality to twelve and I did an e KG and
they said, you just have stress, and she was like, oh,
stress runs in our family. I mean, it was it
was all like nothing was like you're crazy or this
isn't happening. But I feel like, you know, there's a
happy medium where it's like, let's not act like the
child really is having a heart attack. But she didn't

(36:07):
know either, you know, It's like she didn't know. But
once the panic attacks out of the blue started happening,
I did not share that with anybody, and I start
lying and not even lying. I just don't tell anyone
what I'm going through, not even friends, And so I
have the secret and I have to do all these
weird little things to not panic, which obviously don't work,

(36:31):
and that is where I think the brain starts changing.
We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a
quick message from our sponsors. There's something so sophisticated about
the way your book talks about your romantic relationships, where

(36:52):
it's like, the ones that didn't work out, it wasn't
because you were acting like a crazy sitco or being
anxious or you know whatever. But for me, I've had
wonderful relationships. I've had ones, though, where I clung to
people that didn't like me, you know, But I've had
the bottom line in any relationship that didn't work out
beyond just oh we fell out of love and I

(37:14):
moved to l A, you know, beyond the those the
ones that were really problematic, was like, I'm doing behaviors
that I learned growing up that don't have anything to
do with being in a romantic relationship, but they have
to do with healing and soothing my anxiety. And I've
got anxiety about nothing to do with our relationship, but

(37:35):
I'm just acting strange, and people like, what is wrong
with you? And I'm like, I don't know, And can
you just talk about your romantic relationships and how you
think UM kind of living with undiagnosed panic affected them. Yeah, well,
I think it's a complicated answer because I think that
a couple of things are at play. It's not just

(37:56):
the anxiety, it's the anxious attachment. So I think attachment
has a lot to do with UM. Like attachment styles
that you have just started reading about this a couple
of years ago, and you know there's anxious, avoidant attachment,
and secure attachment, and I know they're fluid and we
can kind of go through different periods. I definitely think

(38:19):
I had anxious attachment sometimes and sometimes avoidant, you know, right,
so that you know when they talk about attachment styles,
they're talking about when it comes to your caregiver, the
person who raised you. But attachment styles follow you into
adult relationships. So the way that you attach with your
mother is the way that you're going to attach to everyone.

(38:43):
So it's the way that you're going to attach your partners,
it's a way you're going to attach your friends. So
it's you know, a lot of that. When you have
an anxious attachment style and you have anxiety, it's like
a double whammy. So I think you know, the relationships
that I've been in UM, I've chosen people who are withholding,

(39:05):
and I've chosen people who sort of trigger my um
my core anxieties, and you know, they retreat when I
actually need them to come towards me, or they you know, um,
they think out loud, and instead of creating some sort
of certainty for me, what they do is they perpetuate

(39:27):
a chronic uncertainty. And so I'm living in a state
of like paralysis because I can't I don't feel safe.
There's no stability, there's no you know, like secure ground
for me to walk, and I don't know where I stand.
I don't know, you know, what's going to happen tomorrow.
And I already feel like that. So when you're in

(39:47):
a relationship and that person is actively um, you know,
replicating for for you, um, you know how you already
feel internally and he's applying it to the external war Old,
it's terrifying. So UM, So it's you know, it's it's tough.
It's because I've I've picked the people I've been drawn

(40:09):
to have been not good for my anxiety, you know,
and so it's, um, it's tricky. And so the people
that were more stable it's like they're less kind of
it's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that my um,
the very first serious boyfriend I had in high school, uh,

(40:34):
was the most stable and the most um healthy. It was,
you know, one of the best relationships I've ever had.
It's been all down hill since then. But but so,
you know, he didn't activate my anxiety at all. He
really soothed me UM And I think it's because he

(40:57):
probably was securely attached and you know, he didn't he
didn't remove himself or withhold or withdraw when I would
need him to come closer. And it's ironic because we're
less needy when we're with those people. It's like exactly right,
because you know where you stand. When you know where
you stand, you you're not as needy. Um. But when

(41:20):
you don't, it activates everything. So yeah, so it's it's tricky.
It's a really hard it's it's really difficult to have
anxiety and have relationships. It's hard for both people. UM.
But it's doable. It's just it takes it takes a
special person. It's definitely doable. And I think for me,

(41:42):
the unfortunate thing was I had a lot of things
undiagnosed during some of my significant relationships, and so it
was like I didn't have a template for them to
go or not even for them to do anything, but
for me to go. Don't take this to your partner.
This is anxiety about nothing. They don't need to, you know.
And it's like for me, I think I just thought
that's what relationships are there, the person that fixes you,

(42:03):
like literally, just like a childlike thought in my twenties, like, oh,
I didn't know you know um, And so I thought
that's what everyone was doing. You find someone that takes
away the anxiety. Okay, if the world's gonna end, if
there's nuclear war, if my mom's gonna die some day,
Well I have a partner, and so that makes anxiety go.
I literally thought that, but it comes out in why

(42:25):
aren't you going for your career more? Oh, let me
pick on you about this, but deep down I'm going,
why can't you make it safe to be human? You know,
it's like right now that I know I would never
do that again, but you know, I'm exhausted by trying
again because it's been so many years of having that
be the underlying reason I'm in a relationship that now
that I don't need that, I go to wire people

(42:47):
in them right now it's just someone in my home, Like,
but no, I don't want that. Yeah, no, I actually
I actively think about it, like what you know, I
didn't have any template for what a relationship, like what
a healthy relationship is supposed to look like, and what
I'm supposed to expect from a man like I just

(43:07):
I have. I still don't know, And you know, I
think that it's you know, it's confusing. It's like, what
what is it there for? What are you supposed to
be doing with this other person? What? What is the goal?
What's what are you supposed to achieve? What? You know?
And I think that when you have anxiety's it becomes

(43:27):
very difficult because what because there's a level of not
being in control. Right, So with this person who has
these flaws and these faults and you and you start
getting um sort of bent out of shape because it
creates so much anxiety that they're not you really when

(43:48):
you realize, oh god, they don't, They're not this way
and I need them to be this way. So I'm
gonna try. I'm gonna like hone in on this and
try and get them to be this way so that
I can be comfortable, so that I can feel certain,
so that I can keep moving forward. And it's it's
such a misguided UM way to live, but it's you know,
what happens a lot. You know, it's just the way

(44:12):
the way anxiety steers you. And I think a lot
of things get so misdiagnosed that are really just anxiety,
like oh your code dependent, Oh you're this. And I
never really related to all the little things that like
people said I might have. I was like, no, it's
something else. It's it's a way more existential and tied
to my panic attacks. I feel there are certain expressions
that culture says that us anxious people, we were not

(44:33):
allowed to have those because we don't know how to
use them. So things like you mentioned this a lot
in your book, um falling in love you when you
know you know, And that's great for quote normal people,
but anxious people we know a lot of things that
aren't true. We feel a lot of things that aren't true.
Do you know how many times I've gone well when
you know you know? And it's like, I'm not allowed

(44:54):
to actually use that UM expression because I have anxiety.
And in my thinking is too disordered you to to
be able to engage in these silly romantic tropes, like
they're very dangerous for me. And uh, and I think
it's like I actually think those tropes are dangerous for everybody.
But yeah, but yeah, I just think there's stuff that

(45:15):
I've learned, like, Nope, don't worry about what the rest
of the world says love is. You do not have
the same wiring right, And I think that really truly
comes down to values. You know, what do you value?
What's your value system? What is it that's important to you?
And does this other person you know have that? And

(45:36):
if they don't, do you need them to? And if
you do and they don't have it, then do you
have a problem. Um, but you know, I think that
there's a there. It's not a helpful way to talk
about love. To say when you know you know, that
just feels very hollywoody and unrealistic because quite honestly, um,

(46:02):
I did know. When I was thirty five, I knew
I found my guy. He was my guy and he
was fucking sociopath. He was so not my guy, you
know what I mean? Like, what is knowing? Knowing what
you know? Yes, I know exactly how I felt I
was possessed by love, but that wasn't love. You know,
we don't know really what love is. We we get confused.

(46:24):
We think this feeling that we have it's like, oh
my god, you know that's not love, that's in its excitement. Yeah. Yeah,
anxiety bites will be right back after this message. In
your book, you talk about like kind of becoming like

(46:46):
more of like a punk rock kind of person, and
you know, you went through a phase where you're using
cocaine and and it's it's so not funny, ha ha,
but it's just so interesting, right that like the drug
that like think when work for someone with an anxiety disorder.
I guess it's very akin to in the exactly in
the more medical world. Like you know, I have a

(47:08):
d H d UM. I take Vivans as needed. It
calms me down whatever, and when i'm not, I'm like
and so I've never done cocaine. That was always too afraid,
and I don't think I'll start now, maybe when I'm
like eight. But but it is funny though, because okay,
so here you are throughout the book, I can't do

(47:29):
this because this might happen. Oh my god. Um, you know,
you're so regulated and trying to control the world because
you're anxious, and there's always a period. And I think
I never talked about this with anyone. So I'm so
excited that this episode is a unique bend in the
anxious person's life. If you're this kind of person where
you go punk rock and you go wild. And for me,

(47:49):
it was starting smoking at age fourteen. Now, I've always
had um asthma. If I get a cold, it turns
into pneumonia, and I'm anxious and terrified of dying. But
I start smoking and I do that. I think this
is my self diagnosis is because it was the only way, like,
deep down, the answer to our anxiety is being acceptance. Right.

(48:11):
You kept saying in your book when you were a kid,
I wish what was wrong with me was physical on
the outside so somebody could fix it. And so I
don't know, do you think that there's a there's a
tie in between like kind of being like a punk
and an anxious person. I mean, yes, I do. I'm
not sure it's that it's um punk is necessarily the

(48:33):
I know I keep saying that as like the catch
all word, right, But I think that it's persona and
I think that, Um, I think that, you know, I
have sort of a different read on the cigarette smoking.
Like I started smoking at thirteen fourteen, And yes, I
think that part of it was to fit in, But
I think another part of the unconscious part was that

(48:56):
it was giving us something to do to self sue.
And even if it wasn't, you know, good for you.
It was like we we were in the stage where
we were growing out of it was embarrassing to need
your mommy, you know, and so we had no like,
I can't suck my thumb, so I'll just smoke right exactly.

(49:17):
I mean I I sucked my finger cell I was eleven.
I had to like force myself to stop because it
was so embarrassing. But so I sort of went from
fingers to cigarettes to food. Um, but so that's your
next children's book, by the way, finger cigarettes done. I'll
rob write it when I get off the phone. So

(49:38):
I think that that, you know, at least for me,
it calmed me down whenever I would get anxiety once
I started smoking. Whenever I got anxiety, I would think, oh,
I can have a cigarette, and that just that thought
alone would calm me down because I felt like, oh,
I have like a security blanket, I have something that
soothed me. I think with the per Sona, it's more

(50:02):
a little bit about control, control, right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
and and being able to sort of control the message
and being able to protect yourself from this mortifying feeling
thing inside you, from escaping and from being exposed for
being so sensitive and vulnerable and scared, you know, like

(50:25):
like a baby. And so I think that it's really
too it's like a type of ventriloquism. You're throwing your
voice off, you know. Some people look somewhere else and
you're like, oh good, they're they're so caught up in
what they see they can't actually see what's inside um.
And so I think for me that that was it
was what it was. It was. I was controlling the

(50:47):
message and and saying I'm I'm not I'm not broken,
I'm not scared, I'm not anxious, I'm not a baby,
I'm not any other things. I actually am what I am.
I'm cool, I'm tough, don't funk with me, back off,
I'll cut you. Like. It's just like nothing like I
would not not even remotely true, you know, the projection

(51:09):
I had this persona was just it was such fucking bullshit.
I was terrified. I was I was like, cry for
my mommy at night, and meanwhile, I'm like, your bit,
I'll cut you. Like it was not it was crazy funny,
like I had a thing where I was less like
i'll cut you, but I was more like uh again.

(51:30):
For me, it was like a disordered acceptance, like you
know what this anxiety uh and panic that I have
it's because I'm like next level smart and anyone news
I'm thinking about death all the time is really dumb,
you know, a very Morsey like I got really into
Morrisey and it's just like if you're not like, oh
my god, my friend has a boyfriend, like they're just
gonna die, why bother right? And for me it became

(51:53):
this protection like I'm better than you because I have
anxist you're like a little goth nihilist. Um that's what
I was. But but it's so funny because my mommy,
my mommy. I knew my mom e to be mad
at me, and she was like, please don't die you hey, black,
it looks like shoe polish, And so I didn't. I
wasn't allowed to dye my hair. I just had light

(52:14):
brown hair, and I wasn't allowed to wear all black,
and so I would do what I could get away with.
Maybe we're a black sweatshirt with jeans, bring black pants
and change at school, UM, and then change back. And
so it's like, oh, the rebel who goes home, so rebel,
I can't rebel. I mean, it's so it's charming. Now

(52:34):
when I think about it, it's charming. It's too much more. UM.
I did want to ask you this in sort of
like an artsy FARTZI question. So it's called Little Panic
Dispatches from Anxious Life. This is your first nonfiction. You
are a novelist normally, right, I mean, I don't even
know anymore. Honestly, I wrote, I wrote one novel for adults, UM,

(52:56):
and then I wrote a whole bunch of books fiction
books for its. UM. I've written a lot of novels
that have not been published UM, and I've been Yes,
it's my first nonfiction, but I'm working on another nonfiction book, UM,
and I have been grappling with UM with a novel. UM.

(53:19):
I think I identify it's funny. I identify as a
novelist and I'm I'm actually maybe not really one. Well,
it's funny. I never want to offend the novelist when
speaking to them, because I know a lot of novelists,
you know, like Elizabeth Gilbert's a great example. UM tend
to get really well known if they branch out and
write a memoir. And then it's like, I know, but
actually I've been doing this the whole time, Yesssholes, and

(53:40):
so I don't want to act like you don't have
this whole other talent in life. Thank you. That's very,
very generous and thoughtful. But what what made you want
to write this book? In the sense of did you
always in the back of your head, even when you
were younger, go I want to write about this some day.
I never wanted to write about it. It was never
anything in my head that I thought, you know, I'm

(54:00):
gonna write about this one day, I'm gonna never ever ever.
But what happened was I started writing a novel. And
remember I just I mentioned the four novels that were unpublished.
I ended up writing a novel UM that was about UM.
I mean, there are four different versions. I can't even
remember all of them, but that was essentially about i

(54:20):
Q testing and the group of psychologists who come together
and they're trying to create the most comprehensive intelligence test
known to man, and they test on all these little
kids and they inavertently sucked them up. And it was
a very ambitious book that I was ill equipped to write.
But so I wrote that, and I was like, this
is not working, is not working, and so I sort
of started again and that that wasn't working. And I

(54:41):
ended up doing four iterations of this novel, and it
occurred to me that what I was doing was I
was trying to write a book that I could incorporate
all these old i Q tests into, and that um
that I was writing something in service of that. And
then I was like, okay, well I'll just go off
to the side and just try to get that out

(55:02):
of my system. And then as I was writing that,
I started to think, you know, maybe it's not all
I'm trying to write about. Maybe I'm also like wanting
to write about the anxiety that this created in me,
and that, you know, the anxiety that I had that
no one could see until I started to get that out,
and I was just the purpose was just to get

(55:22):
it out so I could get it out of my
system and go back to the novel and work on
the novel as I felt it was supposed to be written.
And the more I wrote on this little side project, UM,
I realized, I don't I don't think I've ever read
a book about childhood panic and anxiety from the point

(55:45):
of view of the child. And and then I thought, well,
I would really like to I wish someone had written that.
I would like to read that because that would have
helped me. And then I thought, well, oh god, am
I about to write a memoir? And so I had
like a hundred pages of this mess and I, um,
you know, called my agent and I said, okay, I

(56:07):
have these two things. I have this you know book, uh,
this book about these psychologists. And then I have the
hundred messy pages that's I don't even know what it is.
And so I gave them both to him and he
called me back and he was like, it is this
is a memoir and this is it. And I was like,
how are you kidding me? Man? And so he was

(56:27):
like now, so I So that's what I did, and I,
you know, I was really passionate about it. I was
really driven to write it once I decided to do it,
but I did go through phases where I was like,
I'm sorry, why am I doing this? And I went
through this thing where I thought everyone knows this, this
is so basic, this is so dumb. I don't know

(56:47):
all think that it's not Yeah, it's not true at all.
And so yeah, I was mortified. I was like, oh
my god, this is gonna come out and people are
gonna be like, who is this dumb idiot? Who was
telling us everything we've known are years? That's why I
feel on this podcast and like everyone already knows. And
it's like even if some people already know, maybe they

(57:08):
need to hear it from this point. I mean, whatever,
who cares? And here's what I think. Here's what I think.
I think even if people know, this is a kind
of topic you can't really get enough of, right, you know,
people want to know more. They want to know it
from a different angle. They want to know it from underneath,
they want to know it from above. Like I think that, yeah,

(57:28):
one day it could be too much, um but I
think right now, you know, people are starting to realize,
oh wait, I didn't recognize that word as the thing
that I'm actually suffering from. But now that I hear
you talk about it, I realized I think I have
this or you know, now that I'm reading this book,

(57:48):
I realized that maybe I had this as a kid.
Like I've gotten letters from people are letters that's not
true at all, email mail. I'm mail mail written on
someone wrote me a scroll once. Um, so I, um,
you have got an emails when people are like I

(58:09):
didn't realize that this was what was wrong with me,
and you know, or I didn't realize that this is
what's going on with my kid and I've been doing
it all wrong or and that's why I wrote it,
you know, for for the people who to just don't know. Um.
And if you were to ask the people who do know,
if you were to say, what is anxiety, they'd be

(58:29):
hard pressed to answer it. Yeah, and and it's different
for everyone. And you know, I will tell you this
is my letter to you. I mean, as we talked
about earlier in the interview for fun, I read about
psychology anxiety listen to podcast, but I mean it's like
the same person. Yeah, oh no, we totally are. It's
insane and you know I've been doing that I'm forty

(58:50):
seven now, so I don't know a long time, and
I thought, I'm not in an arrogant way, but I
thought I knew pretty much everything to know about myself
and your book with that's what I want to talk
about relationships. I and I knew about attached themselves all that.
But there was something that just tweaked in my brain
where I went the way I had to. It's specific

(59:11):
not to having panic attacks. It is the specificity of
undiagnosed for decades childhood panic that created behaviors in me
and longings and needs that are disordered that come out
in romantic relationships, or did in the past. I did
not have that sentence. No therapist has said it. Maybe

(59:34):
we've danced around it. Maybe everyone assumed I knew, but
you I would not say the sentence I just said,
unless I've read your book. Really Yeah, It's like I
had an epiphany reading it this week and I was like, oh,
that's a cool way to think of it. You know,
just more information for me, different ways to frame it,
and so um. You know, even people who think they

(59:56):
know at all, you can know it differently, you know,
or and we all choose change too, Like our stories
change that we tell ourselves about ourselves. And and you
were you were my shirt but for this week and
this in this journey, and and yeah, I really feel
like the little kid in me is like, oh, she
made a friend, you know, like that that little kid
that didn't know anyone else that panicked, Like now she's

(01:00:17):
she's got you from the eighties in in there with her.
So thank you again so much as to meet you YouTube.
This was awesome. I hope you enjoyed my chat with
Amanda Stern again. Go to the show notes to find
out more about Amanda and get her book and sign

(01:00:37):
up for her newsletter. Before you do all that, before
I give you the takeaways from this week's episode. All
I Want for Christmas is a five star review on
Apple Podcast. So please, please, please please, If you have
three to five minutes, I'm gonna I'm gonna knock it
down to one to three minutes. I don't think it's
gonna take you that long give a five star review.
You can just write two sentences about how much you
love the podcast. If you are on social media, you

(01:01:00):
can find me on Twitter at Jen Kirkman and use
the hashtag anxiety Bites podcast. Let me know how you
like the show. You can find me on Instagram at
Jen Kirkman and that is h j E n K
I r K m A and and tag me in
your Instagram stories. Just tell anyone and everyone how much
you like the show. That way I can retweet you

(01:01:22):
or repost you and it will make my followers say, oh,
I haven't tried that podcast. Maybe I should. Everyone seems
to be talking about it. So thanks again, I really
appreciate it. So here are some of the takeaways. And
I loved chatting with Amanda about, you know, helping kids,
because again, we don't have kids. You know, don't come
to me with needing advice on diaper rash. I can't

(01:01:44):
help you. But just because you're a mom or a
dad doesn't mean that you know what to do with
a kid who has panic disorder. Right, maybe you didn't
have it, and you you don't really understand what they're
going through. So that's why you need auntie's like us
who've had panic to tell you what helps and what
doesn't because we've been kids with panic disorder. So a
lot of these takeaways will be kind of focused on that.

(01:02:06):
So let's take it away So, for example, there's nothing
obviously that you as a parent can do about something
like death, but you can do something about explaining to
your kids, for example, what happens after you die. You
can say things to them like, if I die and
you were still a child, here's what will happen, Here's
where you go, here's where you live, talking to them
in a realistic way. It's terrifying, but it's less terrifying

(01:02:28):
than not knowing. When a man wants people to understand
about anxiety, for people who don't really understand it, especially
child and anxiety, is that it's the uncertainty that is
so distressing. If a child is constantly asking what if?
What if? What if? They're actually asking is can you
give me some certainty either way, either it's a yes,
this bad thing happens, or yes, this good thing happens,

(01:02:49):
or no, none of this happens. When people with anxiety
are asking for a sense of certainty, it doesn't mean
that they want you to be positive. It just needs
to be honest. The deep psychological thing is that when
you're someone with anxiety, the unknown becomes a kind of extinction,
a type of death. So, in this very philosophical way,

(01:03:10):
being terrified of not knowing something equals death, which can
be pretty intense for a kid. If your kid or
a child you know is having a panic attack and
you know that that's what's happening, don't deny their experience.
Don't tell them that they're fine, don't tell them not
to worry, don't tell them it's okay, because it's not.
For them. Nothing feels okay. Things will become okay, and

(01:03:33):
they will become fine, but in that moment, they don't
feel like they are. So your job is to say,
I know you don't feel fine right now, and that's okay,
but you will feel fine when this ends, and this
always ends. Another thing you can do for yourself, or
if you know a kid who's hyperventilating, is to breathe
with said kid, or breathe with yourself and your inner kid.

(01:03:54):
You can do the four seven eight, which is you
inhale on four accounts and then you hold your breath
for seven counts and you exhale for eight counts. If
you want to help a kid with a panic attack,
you can have them do a visualization and tell them
imagine you're breathing in blue, cool, healthy calm, air, and
you're exhaling red, mad, bad feeling air. If you have
a child that's old enough to understand this, you can

(01:04:16):
explain to them that when you have panic and anxiety,
basically they're just overreacting to something. It feels dangerous, but
it's not dangerous. Just because you feel something strongly doesn't
mean it's a fact. Just because you feel like you're
going crazy, it does not mean that you are actually
going crazy. Just because you feel like you're dying, it
does not mean that your body is closing down. It
is not a fact. You can point things out to

(01:04:38):
someone who's having a panic attack, whether it's a child
or another adult. You can say things like, I know
you feel like you can't breathe, but I'm sitting here
and I'm watching your chest rise and fall. I'm watching
the breath come out of you. I am your witness,
and I am not having a panic attack, so I
can see that your body is doing what it's supposed
to be doing, but your brain is making a thinking mistake.
Children with anxiety are terrified reality, and they're so caught

(01:05:01):
up in what if would if would if that they
start to spiral into terror and imagination and what they
need is someone to help them steer through reality. Thanks
again for listening and uh new episodes all through the
month of December right through the holidays, So if that
appeals to you, there you go, and just remember anxiety bites,

(01:05:21):
but you're in control. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.