January 13, 2025 • 40 mins
Kristin Davis takes you back to the very beginning to share every fabulous detail of Sex and the City and how she became Charlotte York.
Are You A Charlotte? is a wholehearted fascinating account of the show we love, the characters we befriended, and the storylines that captivated us.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know Are
You a Charlotte? Welcome to Are You a Charlotte. This
is our very first podcast. It's kind of crazy, very nervous,
but we're just going to press on together. Okay. We
are doing this podcast Are You a Charlotte because we
(00:23):
want to look back at our wonderful show Sex and
the City and kind of relive it. I'm going to
rewatch it, but also just tell you how I remember it.
You know, what was happening in life, what it was
like filming it, all the different memories that come up
when I'm watching it. I watched the pilot last night
and wow, wow, I have so many thoughts. But also
(00:46):
we really want to you know, have guests on. We
want to hear from the fans. We want you guys
to write in and call in and maybe come visit.
I just want to create a community around the show
that we were Sex and the City, the movie and
just like that, our whole trajectory, and communicate with everyone
about the themes that we talked about back then and
(01:08):
how relevant they still are now. I want to acknowledge
all of our writers who've contributed, our creator Darren Starr
originally and Michael Patrick King currently. You know, we would
not be able to be here if they're writing and
their ideas were not so so good and brilliant and
have really stood the test of time.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
When I'm Mountain Life, I run into fans and have
just the most amazing conversations, and sometimes people cry and
tell me about things in their life, or some of
those people are like, remember that time you guys, you're
on the sateline ferrier, you know whatever. It is different things,
and it's such a connecting kind of a thing with people,
and sometimes I'm in a hurry and I can't connect.
(01:51):
And so that's kind of part of the reason that
I felt like this podcast was the right time and
kind of the right time for me life to reflect back.
There used to be a time where I never wanted
to see the old show because I felt like I
would be living in the past because obviously it takes
me back. But I feel at this point that it's
(02:11):
really interesting to look back, and it has been so
long and we are luckily still playing these characters, so
super fascinating to think about how we all began and
what we were thinking then and how we have been
able to evolve. So welcome to Are You a Charlotte.
So the first thing that I was going to talk
about is like my life and how I got cast
(02:35):
in the show and what it was like to get
cast in the show. So I had been on Melro's Place,
which Darren also created Darren Starr and very luckily cast
me as this character Brooke Armstrong, and I was on
for a season. But a season of Melro's Place was
like thirty six episodes, which is totally insane to think
about now. And then I died, well, yes, I died
(02:58):
in the pool. I died to remember for a second.
So I was out of work. Basically, I was out
of work. I'd had this big, big, great job that
was fun but also very bizarre. Melor's Place was like
a you know, cult kind of a soap opera show,
a lot of people watching it. It was my first
big job. And then I went back to being kind
(03:20):
of an out of work actor, auditioning all the time,
all the time, all the time, trying to figure out
what I wanted to do. And I had this wonderful manager,
Dave Fleming, who's still my manager, and he said to
me one day he said, you know, I really think
that you should do comedy because you can do comedy
and not everyone can. And so you've been on a
(03:40):
soap and we probably are going to have to work
to get you cast in comedy. So I auditioned for,
for instance, Seinfeld. I think I auditioned, I want to say,
six times, and then finally got a guest star on
Seinfeld an incredible, amazing. Then I was had a little
part on r with Clooney, also amazing. You know, little
things that where I was just trying to you know,
(04:01):
you're trying to find your thing. And I got this
script from Darren and I had a little note from
it and he said, Kristin, you know, I really want
you to read this for the part of Carrie. He
didn't say, will you do the part of Carrie. I
think that's some rumor that's out there that I was
offered the part of carry No, no, No. One was
offering me any roles at this point in life. Okay,
(04:22):
I was reading scripts and auditioning. So he sends me
the script and he says, read this for the part
of Carrie, and I was like, okay, And Carrie is
very clearly the main part, and she is described as
having the body of Heatherlocklear with the mind of Dorothy Parker.
And I'm like, what, I can't what I can't do that?
So I'm like I was stressing, And in the pilot
(04:44):
she swore a lot and she smoked a lot. She
was much more like the Candace Bushnell of the time,
which Candace wrote the column that then became the book
Sex and the City that Carry is based on. So
in the pilot she was not as you see her
when Sara Jesska does eventually play her. So I thought
(05:04):
to myself, I can't I can't possibly pull this off.
At the time, I definitely was like, no way, But
I like this other girl, Charlotte, because Charlotte and the
pilot there was not a lot on the page, but
it was very clear that she had a different point
of view than the other girls, that she was more
focused on, you know, relationships and love, which I kind
(05:25):
of related to. But also I'd grown up in the
South where everyone's trying to get married, and I just
felt like she was more hopeful and less I don't
know how to put it, but she seemed more younger
in her viewpoint and open than the other characters, which
at the time I related to a lot when I
(05:46):
watched the pilot. I have some other thoughts, but we'll
get to that in a second. So I was like, well, Darren, Darren,
I can't, I can't possibly play that part. I think.
I called him and said, I can't, I can't play Carrie.
I don't even know what you're thinking, but I could
play this other girl. I want to play this other girl.
He was like, oh, okay, okay. You know, we have
Sir Jisca Parker and we really want her to play Carrie.
And I was like, that would be amazing. I was
(06:06):
a huge fan of Sarah's I'd seen ELA's story multiple times,
and she does other things too, but I just loved her.
I had seen her and Annie when I was little
and she was little, but I hadn't been aware of
her as being her at that time. But I was like,
you should make that work with Sara Jessica Parker because
she's incredible and intelligent and so fascinating and this would
(06:27):
be a great part for her. And she lived in
New York and she was very of New York, you know,
so I thought that would be great. So I said, no, no,
I need to play this other character. So she said, okay,
we'll bring you in for the other character. So I
go in. And I really wanted it because at that
point in time, I can't remember any shows that were
led by women and only women at that time filming,
(06:50):
and nothing filmed in New York except for cop shows
like Law and Order. So the idea that you would
go to Manhattan, that these four women were the the
through line of the thing. It was unclear in the
pilot exactly what would happen with the four women, but
it was clear that Carrie was the lead and that
these other women were in the mix. And the idea
that we would like walk around Manhattan in these like outfits,
(07:13):
you know, and go to the met you know, staircase
to record, you know, do the show, do the you
know locations whatever. It was very it was a very
glamorous idea and kind of like outside the box of
what was currently happening in nineteen ninety seven, which is
the year that we filmed the pilot. So I really
(07:34):
wanted it. So I go to test at the HBO
building over here in Century City and in la and
they were seeing people in New York seeing people in
la There was a lot of people in the mix.
You'd hear like, oh, they want a comedian to play Miranda.
Oh they wanted this, Oh they wanted that. You'd hear
all these different things, but everybody wanted these parts, and
so I go. I think I just went directly to test.
(07:56):
I don't remember going in before that. And this is
back in the olden days where we had fax machines
and we went to test on the day, and you
had this You had to have a pilot deal, which
was this really lengthy, like seven year contract, which was
how television worked at the time, and it would have
(08:17):
like you would be in this many episodes each season
for this year, but they had to have seven years
of your commitment, which was a lot. And their fax
machine at the office had broken, so they wouldn't let
anyone read for the part without signing the final contract
that were being sent by all of our lawyers. So
(08:37):
I was there. Willie Garson was there, and I knew
Willy already. I had met Willy in Vancouver probably the
year before, and I loved him so much, so thank
god he was there, because I do wait for hours
before I could go in and read. Darren was there,
but he was inside reading with whoever got their contract first. Right,
So I'm sitting on a counter at this point, and
(08:57):
Willy is sitting up there with me. Were there for
so long that like, I'd be nervous, and then I'd
get unnervous, and then Willie would tell me a funny
story made me laugh. I'd be unnervous, and then I'd
get nervous again. Darren would come out, and Darren looked
very stressed. And I think the backstory for Darren is
that he had had a big deal at Fox because
of nine o two and Oho and Melrose, and he
(09:18):
really wanted to change up what he was doing. He
wanted to take more risks, he wanted to film in Manhattan.
So he had gone with HBO for less money because
he felt like he'd have more freedom, which he absolutely did.
Because at that time the networks were very specific and
safe and advertiser driven, and cable was brand new. So
(09:41):
HBO had only had a show. I think they had
had dream On, which was an odd show where every
episode some woman took her top off, and then they
had had the Larry Sanders show, which I had also
guest starred on, which was incredible, but that was it.
So there's no sopranos. There's nothing else on HB You
and HBO was like, we're going to try this. We
(10:02):
don't know, we're not a real network. So we're in
the testing, you know office. We're in the office of
HBO and Darren's nervously coming in and out. Willie's like
making me laugh, making it so much better. But it
goes on. I might have waited five hours, I can't remember.
It was very long, and I was I was pretty
nervous because I really really wanted the part of Charlotte.
(10:24):
So I go in, I read that, I go back out.
This is how testing worked, and you have to wait
and then they're going to come back out and give
you notes or tell you to go home or whatever.
It's like very stressful, and will he's just like, oh
my god, I've had it. You know, he's so funny.
So Darren comes out. I had gone in, I had read,
I had come back out. You know, Charlotte doesn't have
a lot in the pilot, so I had done the
(10:45):
best with what I had and it wasn't like jokes
or like funny funny. It was, you know, more it
was the scenes with the guy, so it was more
relationship whatever stuff. So he comes out and he's like, Kristen,
you've got to be funnier. You've got to be funnier.
And he's waving his hands like this, and I'm like, oh, god,
is super nervous. I was like, okay, I've got.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
To be funnier.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Oh my god, what am I gott to do? So
I was like, welly, what am I going to do?
He was like, oh, you know, just make it bigger,
make it bigger. And I was like okay, okay. So
I go back in and I think there were three people,
like that's how small HBO was. It was Chris Albreck,
the head of HBO, Carolyn Strauss, who was the head
of original programming, and I think Michael Hill, who was
like the executive in charge of the new shows. I
guess I think that, and maybe are casting people Billy Hopkins,
(11:28):
Orkerry Barton. Not hardly anyone there. So I go back
in and I remember Chris standing up and Chris was
wearing like a complete riding outfit, like with tall boots
and whatever. And I was like, this is so fascinating,
and he was like, you know, can you you know,
make her, you know, more funny, and I was like, okay,
I'll try. So I really tried to make that funny,
(11:49):
but I think it was the scene on the met
staircase which wasn't funny. But anyway, whatever, I did my best.
And I was like, oh, please God, let this work, Please,
let this work. So believe. And the way that the
contract was was you would test and then I think
they had two weeks to tell you. Oh, the longest
two weeks of my life. Like they waited and waited.
Every day. I'd call my people, did you hear anything?
(12:11):
Did you hear anything? They're like non or anything, Oh
my god, Jesus God, wor they don't do it. So
at the final day, you know, it was like, you know,
the time is ticking and I was like, I'm just
I'm going to go to the movies. So I went
to a Brad Pitt movie, I remember it, and I
like ran to the car afterwards, called on like my
ancient cell phone and they were like, yes you got.
(12:32):
I was like, oh thank god. So I was super
excited but like really nervous, and then I don't remember
anything in between there except getting to Manhattan. I had
lived in New York before I'd gone to Rutgers in
New Jersey. I had gone all over Manhattan, and this
is when I get to watching the pilot. I watched
the pilot and I was like, first of all, I
(12:53):
seem like I'm twenty five years old, and second of all,
I seem like I've literally never been to Manhattan, like
everyone else is so much more sophisticated than me. And
I don't know. I don't know if it's like the
Charlotte element. I remember, Okay, so I had long hair
previous to getting there for this, you know, hair like
(13:16):
kind of like how it is right now. I get there.
One of the first things they say to me is
that they want me to cut my hair. And I'm like, why, well,
I do want me to cut my hair because to me,
I didn't feel like all the New York ladies had
their haircut or whatever. But they were like, we want
you to look like Jill Hennessy, who's on Law and Order.
And I was like, well, but Jill Hennessy is like
(13:38):
really tall and extremely beautiful and she's got there's long neck,
and how am I ever going to look like Jill Hennessy.
And also my hair is wavy. I was like, if
you cut my hair like she had like a short
bob at this time, right, I'm just gonna have like
a poof, I'm gonna be like a poodle. So the
hair guy on the pilot really sweet guy, very much
(13:58):
like a like a regular journeyman hairdresser on TV shows, right,
and he's like, you've got to get your haircut, and
if you don't get your haircut, I'm going to cut
it for you on your first day of work. And
I'm like what. So I get in a panic. And
at this point I don't really know Sarah Jessica well
enough right to go to her, Like now, I know
(14:19):
I should have gone to her asap, okay, but I
didn't know. I didn't know yet. And I also probably
should have gone to Darren. I don't know if Darren
was aware they were trying to chop my hair off,
but I was like, oh god, oh god. So I
go to like this salon on Madison Avenue and they
had a booklet that you had to go through and
like pick out like a haircut. So I was like,
I guess this one. So I picked that weird haircut
(14:41):
that I have. It's like here, it's like a very
halfway haircut. But I was so scared that that guy
was going to cut my hair in the trailer at work,
which seemed really like not a good idea. So I
get this haircut and then I remember Sarah Juska being like,
what happened to your hair? And I was like, that
dude made me cut it. She was like what, And
then I realized, like, this is who I need to
(15:03):
talk to about things. Then I get there, he doesn't
like my haircut and he wants me to put this
massive velvet scrunchy on the back of my head. It's
literally like as big as my face. And I'm like, oh,
sarataisica no, because at that point I realized that you
need to run things by her. She's going to help you.
So I'm like, he wants to put this scrunch She
(15:25):
was like, no, no scrunchies, no banana clips. We're in Manhattan,
and I'm like, okay, thank god. Right, So I've got
that strange little like flip in that oof that first
scene where I'm talking to camera. Oh gosh, it's not good.
It's not good. And then, thank goodness, they put my
hair up. I think for the rest of it, at
least for the date they put my hair up. I
(15:46):
can't remember for the Chinese restaurant, but I mean, oh,
that was stressful. So after that I grew my hair out,
you know, thank goodness. And I think at that point
and this is the other I mean, I don't even
know when I should get into the rewatching, but rewatch
I say that I live at Fourth and Bank. When
did Charlotte ever live at Fourth and Bank. I'm like,
(16:06):
oh my god, I'm in the village. I was in
the village and I didn't even know it, and that's
like a dream address. I'm like, maybe they asked Kristin
where she'd like to live, and I would have said
Fourth and Bank, but I had no idea Charlotte's uper
east Side, upper west Side. I was upper west side,
that it was up eastside. But I mean, it's all
very interesting. But the main thing I want to say
from that is that we didn't know what we were
(16:28):
in a way, do you.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Like it seems now kind of like we did, and
I think Sarah Jessica did, but I didn't know at
all what we were.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I remember thinking like, I've got to walk around and
look at the women and try to figure out, like
who these characters are. And I also knew that Charlotte
in the book Sex Andicity wasn't really she wasn't prominently featured,
and she wasn't like a through line. And later on
I thought that she was based on different people. So
(17:02):
Kendis had kind of compiled different stories of different friends
of hers into one person, which is why when you
read the book, you're like, in the book, I think
Charlotte takes psychedelics and goes roller skating, like what you
know what I'm saying. So I remember just being like, huh,
that's really interesting. But I was just trying to navigate.
And I'm wearing that short skirt when you first see me.
(17:24):
What on earth? I mean, that's definitely a Melrose place,
you know, That's what we wore predominantly. But I'm just like, oh,
oh my god. But it was ninety seven also, so anyway,
and we didn't have pat Field yet. So many things
I remember, so many things. I remember meeting Cynthia. I
had seen Cynthia when she was doing two plays on
Broadway across the street from each other, and I had
(17:46):
read an article about her than the New York Times
and thought, like, this woman, Oh wow, she's got the life.
You know, she's incredible, and she was so good in
these two plays, the Real Thing and her liberally like
incredible actress. So I was very kind of like starstruck
in a way. And Sin had a baby Sam at
the time, and I was like, aren't you nervous. I
(18:08):
remember she had like a little picture of Sam on
her notebook. I said, aren't you nervous to go to work?
And she was like no. And I was like, this
woman's cool, so cool and fascinating. Right, She's like no,
what do you mean. I'm like, okay, all right, all right,
So it's fascinating. And I remember meeting Kim. I think
I met Kim in Vancouver. There's like one hotel when
you work in Vancouver all the actors stay in. But
(18:30):
I hadn't really talked to her, and then we were
in an elevator because I think we were staying in
the same hotel. I think remember being in an elevator
with her and talking about Jazz. I mean, it was
so long ago, so long ago, but I mostly remember
in terms of all of us being together, would be
the scene in the pilot when we're in the Chinese
restaurant that I guess is Miranda's birthday, which is also funny.
(18:51):
I didn't remember that. That was really the only time
in the pilot that worked together in the way that
we come to be together obviously as part of the show.
And I remember that day super well. I was super
excited to get to work with everyone. And I remember
Sarah Jessica called me to a trailer. She's like, come
come with me, and she had this huge thing of
(19:13):
Krispy Kreme donuts. And I grew up in South Carolina,
where cream are from, and I was like, first of all,
how is this tiny, tiny little actress eating Krispy Cream donuts?
And second of all, hallelujah because none of that was
having at Melo's place right. I was like, we're gonna
eat donuts, Oh my god. And we chatted and she
was asked me questions about myself and she's just so
incredibly sweet. And then we went into the scene and
(19:36):
it was really you know, we've got the you know,
drag queens and the crazy Chinese things, and it was
like so many people, and it was so different from
anything in the Melrose world and really fun and exciting.
And at that point that's when I remember the talking
to the camera thing. So I don't know if you
(19:57):
all remember we used to talk to the camera. That
was like a part of the pilot that was, you know,
really interesting and very different, and it was just on
the page. So I don't remember as a person thinking
like should this be here? Should this not be here?
I just remember it being very hard to do, like
when I had to be like, you know, these men
(20:17):
are threatened by successful women and so you just have
to be quiet and play the game or something I say,
like so hysterical, but like the fact that you would
actually look in the camera was so weird for an actor, right,
like you were like, am I on a commercial? What
am I doing? What am I doing? And I feel
to some extent that what I remember about the Chinese
restaurant scene was Sara Jessica talking to Darren about it
(20:41):
because there was some kind of debate about how much
should she talk to the camera or in what way
should she talk to the camera, especially if we were
in a group scene, Like in what way would she
turn and just start talking to the camera like it
was strange to break the fourth wall in that way,
and she seemed to feel at the time, I remember,
not super comfortable with it. And I remember watching her
(21:05):
talking to Darren about it and thinking like, this woman
is so strong in herself and knows herself so well
and is talking to him in such a great way
of like an equal footing in terms of the creative process.
And I hadn't really seen that. I had. I hadn't
really been around that. I mean maybe in theater I had,
(21:26):
but not in television up to that point. And she
really was really just trying to navigate her own way
to make it organic, because it's a really odd thing,
like you're in a scene, you're doing your regular acting,
and then you have to turn and be like blah
blah blah blah blah. It was a strange, strange thing,
and I knew at the time that she was uncomfortable.
So when I was going to do this podcast, you know,
(21:48):
I have obviously talked to everyone about it in our
world and they have given their blessing, and I said
to you, I just want to check in with you
about the talking to the camera because I remember that
day at the Chinese restaurant, and I remember you and
Darren kind of negotiating how it would go or how much.
And she reminded me of a couple things that I
would never have remembered. One is that she felt really
(22:09):
uncomfortable about it because she felt like, it's really hard
to do It's hard to make it organic because you
are in a scene. And also this what I hadn't remembered.
Matthew Brodrick, her husband, had done it in Ferris Bueller
and Ferris Bueller's Day Off, in case you haven't seen it,
is a huge classic film that was, you know, a
touchstone for all of us as we were growing up,
(22:33):
like it was a formative kind of a viewing experience.
So for Sarah, she felt like, well, Matthew did this
so brilliantly, how am I going to live up to that? Which,
of course I would never remember that, and probably no
viewer would remember that, But it makes perfect sense when
you think about it, because that was an inherent part
of Ferris Bueller's Day Off, right that you're kind of
(22:53):
with the Farris character going through it all and he's
just talking to you in this kind of like kind
of smart, alec adorable, charming, Matthew way, And I think
Sarah felt like that was too hard to do for
an entire show, you know, And it's a good point.
It's a lot. It's a lot of her talking to
the camera. I only had to do it a tiny bit,
and I remember being very hard. So that was really
(23:14):
interesting for me to think about. But then the other thing,
I don't even know if I should get into this
get or whatever, but like all the other people talking
to the camera and the fact that you don't even
see the rest of us for so long, I'd forgotten
all these things until I rewatched it. And then also
Sarah Winter, who's kind of our guest star, and her
her storyline is so fascinating, and then we never find
out what happens. I'm like, what happened to that character?
(23:36):
She just gone? She got ghosted by this guy? Oh? No,
where is she? Is she? Okay? Why don't we ever
talk about her anymore? Like it's super fascinating, you know,
I've forgotten all that we're gonna talk to Sarah. I
know what, I haven't seen the pilot and probably I
(24:02):
mean at least twenty years maybe more, because I was
never a fan of the pilot. I was like, I
don't know about the pilot. I knew in my gut
that the show was like a living, breathing thing that
we should do and that I should be on it
as well as everyone else, but I didn't When I
(24:24):
saw the pilot, I was like, I don't know in
terms of a pilot, right, because back then we were
in like more networking television. It was a different vibe.
And when you see our show, it is also a
different vibe, like it's kind of rough, Like when they
go to Chaos, which I'm not in that scene, and
everyone always asks me about cast and I'm like, I
(24:44):
don't remember casts. That's because I wasn't there. Chaos is
a mess. You're like, what what's happening here? Like did
they just take a camera in there and film people?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Like?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
It's messy and interesting. I mean, very very different from
network TV. Very different. I guess part of my response
to the pilot back then was that it didn't seem polished,
It didn't seem smooth. It seemed kind of choppy and hectic.
But I also feel my personal theory on pilots in
general is that if they're too good. If the pilot
(25:17):
is too formed, the show might not be good. Like
what you want in a pilot is like a like
a spark, like a something like a fissure, like an energy,
and then the show can run on that and you
can form it into something like Clay. And then you
can form it into something if you have the right
(25:37):
creative people and if you have a network who will
allow you to form it, which luckily we did an HBO,
thank god, because we really we went on such a
course of you know, finding each character and the show's vibe,
you know, over the years really and it's actually still
a journey, which is amazing and amazing that we've been
(25:58):
allowed to do that. But I remember watching the pilot
myself at the time, and the scene that I remembered
and loved, and I feel like everyone feels this way
is the last scene with Big and Carrie in the
car and when she gets out, and first of all,
the village, I mean, it's unrecognizable, Okay, the city in general.
You're just like, I can't even believe it's changed as
(26:20):
much as it's changed. I mean, it's still glorious, but
it's just it was like it looks like the seventies,
almost true. I mean that's at a little questionable to say,
and people who are in New York and the seventies
might disagree with me, But I mean it's rough looking.
It's fascinatingly rough looking, except for the met stairs of course,
(26:41):
very glamorous, but Sarah on the street and we used
to film in Super sixteen, which is very different than
how we film now, so it's got a kind of
a rougher quality to the actual film stock. And it's
just so interesting, like an indie film. It reminds me
of an indie film, and also an indie film in
terms of like, you're here, you're there. There's not a
(27:02):
lot of explanation, there's not a lot of backstory. People
are just talking to you, and then you're in chaos
and people are smoking cigars and like it's a very
interesting and slightly chaotic situation. But really I wanted to
know more, Like when I watched it last night, I'm like,
I want to know all about Miranda. I feel like
(27:23):
Miranda in that suit with that hair eating, you know,
like calling a skipper skippy and then she pushes it
up against the wall. I don't remember any of this.
I obviously wasn't there when they filmed it, but I
was like, I want to go with her, Like, what's
her job? What's she doing? And I guess it said
corporate lawyer, But like, I want to follow her there.
You know, she's super fascinating and funny and weird. And
(27:45):
then Samantha is so sophisticated and powerful. You know, this
is my other thought. When I was watching the show,
I was like, the three of them are very powerful.
Charlotte not so powerful, not so powerful at all. Charlotte's
like a puppy. You know. I really was like, this
is super fascinating. So I have this other story. So
(28:06):
I told you about testing, and I had this big,
big deal. It was like a big, thick, seven year deal.
When we're doing the pilot. This producer, I think she
was like a maybe a line producer, like not an
executive producer. One day I'm in my trailer and she
comes to my trailer and she knocks on my door
and I opened it and you know, yes, and she says, oh, well,
(28:27):
we have this paperwork we need you to fill out.
And I was like, okay, I take the paperwork and
I look at it and it seems to be like
a new contract, but it's only two pages long, and
I'm like, what is this? And it says like, you know,
you will be a recurring character and you will be
paid five thousand dollars And I was like what, So
I call my lawyer. I'm like, Jason, he's still my Jason.
(28:49):
Just give me this newpaperwork. What do I do? He said,
do not sign it. I was like, but but they're
gonna ask me. What am I gonna say? Because I'm
a good girl, you know, I'd like to do my
things right. And he's like, I just just say you
forgot it. So you forgot it. And I'm like, Okay,
what is going on? He said, I don't know. I'm
going to find out. I'll call them. I don't know.
I know that the pilot's costing a lot and that
(29:09):
they're stressed at HBO about it. I think the pilot
costs like two point five million roughly, which at the
time was a lot because no one really filmed in Manhattan.
Right when you look at it, it does not look
like it cost a lot. But I think just being
in the locations we were in cost a lot. So
I was like, oh God, Oh Jesus, what are they
trying to do to me? He goes happening. I was
so stressed, and then I was just like, I'm just
(29:32):
not going to mention this to anybody else. I'm just
going to pretend like everything's fine, you know. But inside
I was really really nervous about it, and I didn't
know what it meant. Darren didn't say anything to me
about it, so I thought, well, if Darren's not saying
anything to me about it, then everything must be okay.
I don't know. I was scared. But it was also
very clear from the book and from the script and
(29:53):
from the pilot that Charlotte's point of view was a
different point of view than the other girls. Now that
they all share the exact same point of view, they don't.
But when we do have that group scene about trying
to have sex like a man, and I'm like what
you know? And I make crazy faces, you know, like
what romance? You know, it's very clear that I'm on
a different trajectory, And you do kind of think, like,
(30:15):
how did Charlotte get to be friends with these girls?
Like this is interesting, right, but do you feel like
that is how friend groups are like you're gonna have
a variety of friend groups. I always thought that was
weird through the years, when people would bring that up
to me, like why are you friends with them? I'd
be like, why wouldn't I be friends with them? Right?
They're fascinating, They're interesting. I think Charlotte was trying to
like learn from them, or you know, hopefully some of
(30:38):
that would rub off on her or whatever. But honestly,
when I looked back on it, I was like, well, now,
I do think they were trying to save money, but
I also think that they were like, well, she's so different,
and the other three are kind of powerful, like in control,
trying to navigate this relationship thing where we're talking about
(30:59):
these issues, and you know, can women have sex like
men and not have feelings? You know, like what does
it mean to be ghosted?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
You know?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Why are there so many incredible single women and all
these toxic bachelors Like I get all of the points.
And then to have Charlotte be kind of this looking
for love, you know, naive character, which obviously I knew
she was. It is different. It is definitely different, But
in my gut, I felt like it was really important
(31:27):
to have this other character. So even though I was
super stressed about this weird paperwork thing, I did feel like, no, no,
they need me, you know. I felt inside that they
needed me. And I'm so happy that I did, because
obviously it could have really gone wrong, right, like anyone
could get recast or cut out or at any time
(31:47):
in our business. But in my gut, I didn't feel
like that would happen. And I'm so thankful that I
that I didn't and that I had faith in myself.
I really am unsure why. In some ways, you know
what I'm saying. I wasn't the most super confident person
or whatever, but I do feel like when things come
to you and you have something that connects with that
(32:08):
and you have something that you want to be able
to express or create or whatever, and something that you
want to be a part of, because I know, I
desperately wanted to be a part of it, like I
thought it was like the most incredible job ever, you know.
And when I watch that group scene, all I see
is how much I want to connect with them, you know,
(32:28):
how much I want to be with them and fit in,
which is kind of heartbreaking in a certain way, but
also that is kind of Charlotte. You know, that is
kind of in a way like she wants to be loved,
she wants to find love, she wants to have love
with her girlfriend, she wants to connect, you know. And
I do relate to that still, But when I look
back on it, I'm like, wow, I was like a
(32:49):
floppy puppy and they're like sophisticated power, you know, like Samantha.
I mean, I was just like, she's like a purring
cat of power, and you know, like she's in there
using her tools, and Kim does it so well, and
then Miranda is like an awkward power you know what
(33:11):
I'm saying. Like, and then Carrie, I forgot this whole
scene where she goes to try to have sex with
Bill Sage's character and gets out of bed and is like,
you know, good luck. He's like what about me, and
she's like never mind and she gets out of bed.
I was like, wow, I totally forgot about this. How incredible.
But I do remember that we were it was, you know,
shocking in many ways to be talking about sex in
(33:33):
this kind of open way at the time, and I
remember that we were nervous about the response, like would
women like it? Like we were trying to make it
for women, but we were like, are they going to
be turned off? Because I do think there's a lot
to think about in terms of like the male gaze
and how like at that time in films there was
a lot of sexuality, but it was from the director's
(33:55):
point of view or the male actors, like it was
from the male gaze, not necessarily from empowering women. I mean,
with a few exceptions, like I can think of like
that Melanie Griffith movie in Manhattan, what was it culed?
Do you remember sidebar? We'll figure it out later. Working girl,
good job, good job, working girl, working girl. Incredible, Like
there were like like here and there a little and
(34:18):
we talk about the Last Seduction. We talk about that
in the film, and that was also like a super
powerful female character, Linda Fiorentino, remember her, You're too young anyway,
you know, like there were things here and there where
the women were powerful kind of sexual beings, but there
was no TV show like that at all. Right, So
(34:39):
like from that perspective, I think about how amazing it
was to be a part of it and how much
fear we had about the response of it to it,
you know, but also how incredible that we got to
do it, you know, and how far everything has come.
But yet when you look back, we don't use the
term ghosting, but obviously Sarah Winter's character is ghost before
(35:00):
we had a term for it, which is always a
very perplexing thing and still very much something you know,
we discuss in our culture. And then also, you know,
can women have sex like men? I mean, I think
it's a valid question. I do feel like that part
of the conversation has definitely come a long way. Like
I feel like, you know, the casual hookup became very
(35:21):
like acceptable in a certain way, in a more kind
of equal men and women way, which is great, but
wasn't true in the nineties. I don't feel like, I mean,
it might have been true, but I don't know that
we were open about it, you know. But anyway, I
think those things are super fascinating, and those were the
two big themes of the show. And then also, I mean,
I thought so many things watching the show, but one
(35:42):
of the things I thought was, like, every male character
in this show is awful. Okay, they're awful. Why do
we even want to date them? Why? Why? And thank
god we wrote toxic bachelor on each one, because all
of them, all of them, even Skipper, I mean, he's
just I don't know, well, I'm not I'm not buying
the Skipper of it all. I hadn't really remembered the
(36:03):
Skipper of it all. I just love how Miranda is
with him, where she's just like Skippy. You know, it's
just so funny. But I mean it's super fascinating all
of it, all of it. And then I mean there's
so many other things that I've left out. For one thing,
I just want to talk about Sarah Jessica. We're gonna
have a little Sir Jesca talk right now. She's got
her brown hair. Love it. I love it so much.
I know we had to go blind, but like to
(36:25):
see her brown hair curly natural and her eyes, My
good Lord, like, thank God, we built an empire on
this woman. She is incredible, dur I'm saying, like I
was floored. I had not watched this thing is so long,
and her ease and grace and like also intelligence and depth. Right,
(36:48):
but like the scene on the street where she meets
Big and she drops the condoms, but then also when
she's leaving, you know, she almost like she has to
fix her skirt behind her Like her physical comedy is
so brilliant but also subtle. And then also like when
she has this scene with Bill Sage where she's like,
oh my god, I forgot Willy. Oh my god, when
Willy comes on the screen, I might cry. Sorry, but
(37:09):
you know, he's so young and he's so beautiful and
I really had forgotten, you know, sorry, but I had
to stop.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
When I was watching it, I was like, oh my god,
we were just little little babies, you know. And he's
so funny and their relationship is so great and they
had been friends for so long. So I love it
that it's on camera.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
I have to stop this for a little seconds in
the scene, I was thinking about the scene that Willy
and Sarah are in together and.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
You know, he's telling her like, don't go talk to him,
and she's like, no, no, you know, I'm doing research.
And she's so seductive and funny and like her eyes.
I'm like, well, who could say no to her? Like,
who could say no to her? She's incredible. That was
fun to watch, Like, I don't know that I think.
I was just like, I'm just gonna do everything she tells.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Me to do. Like that's what I feel like at
the time when I met her, you know, she seemed
so much more sophisticated, and I mean she frankly just
is more sophisticated than I am. And I just remember thinking, like,
whatever she says, I'm gonna do it, I'm going to
try to do it. Like if she says to grow
my hair, and I'm gonna grow my hair out. You know,
if she says to wear longer shirts, I'm gonna wear
longer shirts. I'm just gonna try to do whatever she says.
(38:29):
And I did, which is great. But it's really funny
to look at everything she brings and how she shifted
the role of Carrie to kind of suit her, but
also she made her more kind of like every woman
in a way. I mean, I know this is obviously debatable,
(38:50):
and the show goes on a long time and everyone
has opinions about Carrie, but you know, she's so fascinating
and I don't think that our whole trajectory would ever
have worked if Sarah had played less, do you know
what I'm saying? Like she added so much depth and thinking,
Like her intelligence shows through in so many ways because
(39:13):
she is a columnist, and she is thinking about, well,
why this and why that? And you know, she is
the reason that we could all deepen out, you know,
because if she hadn't brought that, then the rest of
us would have been able to do that. So I
thought about that watching it like, it's a pretty incredible performance,
even in the messiness of us trying to find ourselves
(39:38):
and her apartment. Oh my god, I still can't get
over that apartment and what I think it was, because
I mean, obviously we changed to the Perry Street apartment,
which was not supposed to be Pari Street. It supposed
to be that our breast side, which is where Candace
actually lived. And Candace I believe, did actually live over
a coffee shop. Remember they show that neon side of
the coffee shop and then that really really incredibly messy apartment.
(39:59):
I mean, it's super interesting, but I was shocked. I
do not remember it being that dark and that messy,
and I'm really glad that we changed it. Okay, So
as you can see, I have many stories. I have
stories for days, stories for days, and I look forward
to telling them all to you. But I also have
an exciting guest who're going to bring the very first
guest star, Sarah Winter in to talk to me. She's
(40:20):
the very first face that you see in the pilot
and she's so lovely and I have such fond memories
ever and I can't wait to see her again. And
that is going to be on our next episode of
Are You a Charlotte? And I think we're gonna ask Sarah,
are you a Charlotte? Let's ask her, let's find out
thanks for being with me.
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know Are
You a Charlotte? Welcome to Are You a Charlotte. This
is our very first podcast. It's kind of crazy, very nervous,
but we're just going to press on together. Okay. We
are doing this podcast Are You a Charlotte because we
(00:23):
want to look back at our wonderful show Sex and
the City and kind of relive it. I'm going to
rewatch it, but also just tell you how I remember it.
You know, what was happening in life, what it was
like filming it, all the different memories that come up
when I'm watching it. I watched the pilot last night
and wow, wow, I have so many thoughts. But also
(00:46):
we really want to you know, have guests on. We
want to hear from the fans. We want you guys
to write in and call in and maybe come visit.
I just want to create a community around the show
that we were Sex and the City, the movie and
just like that, our whole trajectory, and communicate with everyone
about the themes that we talked about back then and
(01:08):
how relevant they still are now. I want to acknowledge
all of our writers who've contributed, our creator Darren Starr
originally and Michael Patrick King currently. You know, we would
not be able to be here if they're writing and
their ideas were not so so good and brilliant and
have really stood the test of time.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
When I'm Mountain Life, I run into fans and have
just the most amazing conversations, and sometimes people cry and
tell me about things in their life, or some of
those people are like, remember that time you guys, you're
on the sateline ferrier, you know whatever. It is different things,
and it's such a connecting kind of a thing with people,
and sometimes I'm in a hurry and I can't connect.
(01:51):
And so that's kind of part of the reason that
I felt like this podcast was the right time and
kind of the right time for me life to reflect back.
There used to be a time where I never wanted
to see the old show because I felt like I
would be living in the past because obviously it takes
me back. But I feel at this point that it's
(02:11):
really interesting to look back, and it has been so
long and we are luckily still playing these characters, so
super fascinating to think about how we all began and
what we were thinking then and how we have been
able to evolve. So welcome to Are You a Charlotte.
So the first thing that I was going to talk
about is like my life and how I got cast
(02:35):
in the show and what it was like to get
cast in the show. So I had been on Melro's Place,
which Darren also created Darren Starr and very luckily cast
me as this character Brooke Armstrong, and I was on
for a season. But a season of Melro's Place was
like thirty six episodes, which is totally insane to think
about now. And then I died, well, yes, I died
(02:58):
in the pool. I died to remember for a second.
So I was out of work. Basically, I was out
of work. I'd had this big, big, great job that
was fun but also very bizarre. Melor's Place was like
a you know, cult kind of a soap opera show,
a lot of people watching it. It was my first
big job. And then I went back to being kind
(03:20):
of an out of work actor, auditioning all the time,
all the time, all the time, trying to figure out
what I wanted to do. And I had this wonderful manager,
Dave Fleming, who's still my manager, and he said to
me one day he said, you know, I really think
that you should do comedy because you can do comedy
and not everyone can. And so you've been on a
(03:40):
soap and we probably are going to have to work
to get you cast in comedy. So I auditioned for,
for instance, Seinfeld. I think I auditioned, I want to say,
six times, and then finally got a guest star on
Seinfeld an incredible, amazing. Then I was had a little
part on r with Clooney, also amazing. You know, little
things that where I was just trying to you know,
(04:01):
you're trying to find your thing. And I got this
script from Darren and I had a little note from
it and he said, Kristin, you know, I really want
you to read this for the part of Carrie. He
didn't say, will you do the part of Carrie. I
think that's some rumor that's out there that I was
offered the part of carry No, no, No. One was
offering me any roles at this point in life. Okay,
(04:22):
I was reading scripts and auditioning. So he sends me
the script and he says, read this for the part
of Carrie, and I was like, okay, And Carrie is
very clearly the main part, and she is described as
having the body of Heatherlocklear with the mind of Dorothy Parker.
And I'm like, what, I can't what I can't do that?
So I'm like I was stressing, And in the pilot
(04:44):
she swore a lot and she smoked a lot. She
was much more like the Candace Bushnell of the time,
which Candace wrote the column that then became the book
Sex and the City that Carry is based on. So
in the pilot she was not as you see her
when Sara Jesska does eventually play her. So I thought
(05:04):
to myself, I can't I can't possibly pull this off.
At the time, I definitely was like, no way, But
I like this other girl, Charlotte, because Charlotte and the
pilot there was not a lot on the page, but
it was very clear that she had a different point
of view than the other girls, that she was more
focused on, you know, relationships and love, which I kind
(05:25):
of related to. But also I'd grown up in the
South where everyone's trying to get married, and I just
felt like she was more hopeful and less I don't
know how to put it, but she seemed more younger
in her viewpoint and open than the other characters, which
at the time I related to a lot when I
(05:46):
watched the pilot. I have some other thoughts, but we'll
get to that in a second. So I was like, well, Darren, Darren,
I can't, I can't possibly play that part. I think.
I called him and said, I can't, I can't play Carrie.
I don't even know what you're thinking, but I could
play this other girl. I want to play this other girl.
He was like, oh, okay, okay. You know, we have
Sir Jisca Parker and we really want her to play Carrie.
And I was like, that would be amazing. I was
(06:06):
a huge fan of Sarah's I'd seen ELA's story multiple times,
and she does other things too, but I just loved her.
I had seen her and Annie when I was little
and she was little, but I hadn't been aware of
her as being her at that time. But I was like,
you should make that work with Sara Jessica Parker because
she's incredible and intelligent and so fascinating and this would
(06:27):
be a great part for her. And she lived in
New York and she was very of New York, you know,
so I thought that would be great. So I said, no, no,
I need to play this other character. So she said, okay,
we'll bring you in for the other character. So I
go in. And I really wanted it because at that
point in time, I can't remember any shows that were
led by women and only women at that time filming,
(06:50):
and nothing filmed in New York except for cop shows
like Law and Order. So the idea that you would
go to Manhattan, that these four women were the the
through line of the thing. It was unclear in the
pilot exactly what would happen with the four women, but
it was clear that Carrie was the lead and that
these other women were in the mix. And the idea
that we would like walk around Manhattan in these like outfits,
(07:13):
you know, and go to the met you know, staircase
to record, you know, do the show, do the you
know locations whatever. It was very it was a very
glamorous idea and kind of like outside the box of
what was currently happening in nineteen ninety seven, which is
the year that we filmed the pilot. So I really
(07:34):
wanted it. So I go to test at the HBO
building over here in Century City and in la and
they were seeing people in New York seeing people in
la There was a lot of people in the mix.
You'd hear like, oh, they want a comedian to play Miranda.
Oh they wanted this, Oh they wanted that. You'd hear
all these different things, but everybody wanted these parts, and
so I go. I think I just went directly to test.
(07:56):
I don't remember going in before that. And this is
back in the olden days where we had fax machines
and we went to test on the day, and you
had this You had to have a pilot deal, which
was this really lengthy, like seven year contract, which was
how television worked at the time, and it would have
(08:17):
like you would be in this many episodes each season
for this year, but they had to have seven years
of your commitment, which was a lot. And their fax
machine at the office had broken, so they wouldn't let
anyone read for the part without signing the final contract
that were being sent by all of our lawyers. So
(08:37):
I was there. Willie Garson was there, and I knew
Willy already. I had met Willy in Vancouver probably the
year before, and I loved him so much, so thank
god he was there, because I do wait for hours
before I could go in and read. Darren was there,
but he was inside reading with whoever got their contract first. Right,
So I'm sitting on a counter at this point, and
(08:57):
Willy is sitting up there with me. Were there for
so long that like, I'd be nervous, and then I'd
get unnervous, and then Willie would tell me a funny
story made me laugh. I'd be unnervous, and then I'd
get nervous again. Darren would come out, and Darren looked
very stressed. And I think the backstory for Darren is
that he had had a big deal at Fox because
of nine o two and Oho and Melrose, and he
(09:18):
really wanted to change up what he was doing. He
wanted to take more risks, he wanted to film in Manhattan.
So he had gone with HBO for less money because
he felt like he'd have more freedom, which he absolutely did.
Because at that time the networks were very specific and
safe and advertiser driven, and cable was brand new. So
(09:41):
HBO had only had a show. I think they had
had dream On, which was an odd show where every
episode some woman took her top off, and then they
had had the Larry Sanders show, which I had also
guest starred on, which was incredible, but that was it.
So there's no sopranos. There's nothing else on HB You
and HBO was like, we're going to try this. We
(10:02):
don't know, we're not a real network. So we're in
the testing, you know office. We're in the office of
HBO and Darren's nervously coming in and out. Willie's like
making me laugh, making it so much better. But it
goes on. I might have waited five hours, I can't remember.
It was very long, and I was I was pretty
nervous because I really really wanted the part of Charlotte.
(10:24):
So I go in, I read that, I go back out.
This is how testing worked, and you have to wait
and then they're going to come back out and give
you notes or tell you to go home or whatever.
It's like very stressful, and will he's just like, oh
my god, I've had it. You know, he's so funny.
So Darren comes out. I had gone in, I had read,
I had come back out. You know, Charlotte doesn't have
a lot in the pilot, so I had done the
(10:45):
best with what I had and it wasn't like jokes
or like funny funny. It was, you know, more it
was the scenes with the guy, so it was more
relationship whatever stuff. So he comes out and he's like, Kristen,
you've got to be funnier. You've got to be funnier.
And he's waving his hands like this, and I'm like, oh, god,
is super nervous. I was like, okay, I've got.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
To be funnier.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Oh my god, what am I gott to do? So
I was like, welly, what am I going to do?
He was like, oh, you know, just make it bigger,
make it bigger. And I was like okay, okay. So
I go back in and I think there were three people,
like that's how small HBO was. It was Chris Albreck,
the head of HBO, Carolyn Strauss, who was the head
of original programming, and I think Michael Hill, who was
like the executive in charge of the new shows. I
guess I think that, and maybe are casting people Billy Hopkins,
(11:28):
Orkerry Barton. Not hardly anyone there. So I go back
in and I remember Chris standing up and Chris was
wearing like a complete riding outfit, like with tall boots
and whatever. And I was like, this is so fascinating,
and he was like, you know, can you you know,
make her, you know, more funny, and I was like, okay,
I'll try. So I really tried to make that funny,
(11:49):
but I think it was the scene on the met
staircase which wasn't funny. But anyway, whatever, I did my best.
And I was like, oh, please God, let this work, Please,
let this work. So believe. And the way that the
contract was was you would test and then I think
they had two weeks to tell you. Oh, the longest
two weeks of my life. Like they waited and waited.
Every day. I'd call my people, did you hear anything?
(12:11):
Did you hear anything? They're like non or anything, Oh
my god, Jesus God, wor they don't do it. So
at the final day, you know, it was like, you know,
the time is ticking and I was like, I'm just
I'm going to go to the movies. So I went
to a Brad Pitt movie, I remember it, and I
like ran to the car afterwards, called on like my
ancient cell phone and they were like, yes you got.
(12:32):
I was like, oh thank god. So I was super
excited but like really nervous, and then I don't remember
anything in between there except getting to Manhattan. I had
lived in New York before I'd gone to Rutgers in
New Jersey. I had gone all over Manhattan, and this
is when I get to watching the pilot. I watched
the pilot and I was like, first of all, I
(12:53):
seem like I'm twenty five years old, and second of all,
I seem like I've literally never been to Manhattan, like
everyone else is so much more sophisticated than me. And
I don't know. I don't know if it's like the
Charlotte element. I remember, Okay, so I had long hair
previous to getting there for this, you know, hair like
(13:16):
kind of like how it is right now. I get there.
One of the first things they say to me is
that they want me to cut my hair. And I'm like, why, well,
I do want me to cut my hair because to me,
I didn't feel like all the New York ladies had
their haircut or whatever. But they were like, we want
you to look like Jill Hennessy, who's on Law and Order.
And I was like, well, but Jill Hennessy is like
(13:38):
really tall and extremely beautiful and she's got there's long neck,
and how am I ever going to look like Jill Hennessy.
And also my hair is wavy. I was like, if
you cut my hair like she had like a short
bob at this time, right, I'm just gonna have like
a poof, I'm gonna be like a poodle. So the
hair guy on the pilot really sweet guy, very much
(13:58):
like a like a regular journeyman hairdresser on TV shows, right,
and he's like, you've got to get your haircut, and
if you don't get your haircut, I'm going to cut
it for you on your first day of work. And
I'm like what. So I get in a panic. And
at this point I don't really know Sarah Jessica well
enough right to go to her, Like now, I know
(14:19):
I should have gone to her asap, okay, but I
didn't know. I didn't know yet. And I also probably
should have gone to Darren. I don't know if Darren
was aware they were trying to chop my hair off,
but I was like, oh god, oh god. So I
go to like this salon on Madison Avenue and they
had a booklet that you had to go through and
like pick out like a haircut. So I was like,
I guess this one. So I picked that weird haircut
(14:41):
that I have. It's like here, it's like a very
halfway haircut. But I was so scared that that guy
was going to cut my hair in the trailer at work,
which seemed really like not a good idea. So I
get this haircut and then I remember Sarah Juska being like,
what happened to your hair? And I was like, that
dude made me cut it. She was like what, And
then I realized, like, this is who I need to
(15:03):
talk to about things. Then I get there, he doesn't
like my haircut and he wants me to put this
massive velvet scrunchy on the back of my head. It's
literally like as big as my face. And I'm like, oh,
sarataisica no, because at that point I realized that you
need to run things by her. She's going to help you.
So I'm like, he wants to put this scrunch She
(15:25):
was like, no, no scrunchies, no banana clips. We're in Manhattan,
and I'm like, okay, thank god. Right, So I've got
that strange little like flip in that oof that first
scene where I'm talking to camera. Oh gosh, it's not good.
It's not good. And then, thank goodness, they put my
hair up. I think for the rest of it, at
least for the date they put my hair up. I
(15:46):
can't remember for the Chinese restaurant, but I mean, oh,
that was stressful. So after that I grew my hair out,
you know, thank goodness. And I think at that point
and this is the other I mean, I don't even
know when I should get into the rewatching, but rewatch
I say that I live at Fourth and Bank. When
did Charlotte ever live at Fourth and Bank. I'm like,
(16:06):
oh my god, I'm in the village. I was in
the village and I didn't even know it, and that's
like a dream address. I'm like, maybe they asked Kristin
where she'd like to live, and I would have said
Fourth and Bank, but I had no idea Charlotte's uper
east Side, upper west Side. I was upper west side,
that it was up eastside. But I mean, it's all
very interesting. But the main thing I want to say
from that is that we didn't know what we were
(16:28):
in a way, do you.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Like it seems now kind of like we did, and
I think Sarah Jessica did, but I didn't know at
all what we were.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I remember thinking like, I've got to walk around and
look at the women and try to figure out, like
who these characters are. And I also knew that Charlotte
in the book Sex Andicity wasn't really she wasn't prominently featured,
and she wasn't like a through line. And later on
I thought that she was based on different people. So
(17:02):
Kendis had kind of compiled different stories of different friends
of hers into one person, which is why when you
read the book, you're like, in the book, I think
Charlotte takes psychedelics and goes roller skating, like what you
know what I'm saying. So I remember just being like, huh,
that's really interesting. But I was just trying to navigate.
And I'm wearing that short skirt when you first see me.
(17:24):
What on earth? I mean, that's definitely a Melrose place,
you know, That's what we wore predominantly. But I'm just like, oh,
oh my god. But it was ninety seven also, so anyway,
and we didn't have pat Field yet. So many things
I remember, so many things. I remember meeting Cynthia. I
had seen Cynthia when she was doing two plays on
Broadway across the street from each other, and I had
(17:46):
read an article about her than the New York Times
and thought, like, this woman, Oh wow, she's got the life.
You know, she's incredible, and she was so good in
these two plays, the Real Thing and her liberally like
incredible actress. So I was very kind of like starstruck
in a way. And Sin had a baby Sam at
the time, and I was like, aren't you nervous. I
(18:08):
remember she had like a little picture of Sam on
her notebook. I said, aren't you nervous to go to work?
And she was like no. And I was like, this
woman's cool, so cool and fascinating. Right, She's like no,
what do you mean. I'm like, okay, all right, all right,
So it's fascinating. And I remember meeting Kim. I think
I met Kim in Vancouver. There's like one hotel when
you work in Vancouver all the actors stay in. But
(18:30):
I hadn't really talked to her, and then we were
in an elevator because I think we were staying in
the same hotel. I think remember being in an elevator
with her and talking about Jazz. I mean, it was
so long ago, so long ago, but I mostly remember
in terms of all of us being together, would be
the scene in the pilot when we're in the Chinese
restaurant that I guess is Miranda's birthday, which is also funny.
(18:51):
I didn't remember that. That was really the only time
in the pilot that worked together in the way that
we come to be together obviously as part of the show.
And I remember that day super well. I was super
excited to get to work with everyone. And I remember
Sarah Jessica called me to a trailer. She's like, come
come with me, and she had this huge thing of
(19:13):
Krispy Kreme donuts. And I grew up in South Carolina,
where cream are from, and I was like, first of all,
how is this tiny, tiny little actress eating Krispy Cream donuts?
And second of all, hallelujah because none of that was
having at Melo's place right. I was like, we're gonna
eat donuts, Oh my god. And we chatted and she
was asked me questions about myself and she's just so
incredibly sweet. And then we went into the scene and
(19:36):
it was really you know, we've got the you know,
drag queens and the crazy Chinese things, and it was
like so many people, and it was so different from
anything in the Melrose world and really fun and exciting.
And at that point that's when I remember the talking
to the camera thing. So I don't know if you
(19:57):
all remember we used to talk to the camera. That
was like a part of the pilot that was, you know,
really interesting and very different, and it was just on
the page. So I don't remember as a person thinking
like should this be here? Should this not be here?
I just remember it being very hard to do, like
when I had to be like, you know, these men
(20:17):
are threatened by successful women and so you just have
to be quiet and play the game or something I say,
like so hysterical, but like the fact that you would
actually look in the camera was so weird for an actor, right,
like you were like, am I on a commercial? What
am I doing? What am I doing? And I feel
to some extent that what I remember about the Chinese
restaurant scene was Sara Jessica talking to Darren about it
(20:41):
because there was some kind of debate about how much
should she talk to the camera or in what way
should she talk to the camera, especially if we were
in a group scene, Like in what way would she
turn and just start talking to the camera like it
was strange to break the fourth wall in that way,
and she seemed to feel at the time, I remember,
not super comfortable with it. And I remember watching her
(21:05):
talking to Darren about it and thinking like, this woman
is so strong in herself and knows herself so well
and is talking to him in such a great way
of like an equal footing in terms of the creative process.
And I hadn't really seen that. I had. I hadn't
really been around that. I mean maybe in theater I had,
(21:26):
but not in television up to that point. And she
really was really just trying to navigate her own way
to make it organic, because it's a really odd thing,
like you're in a scene, you're doing your regular acting,
and then you have to turn and be like blah
blah blah blah blah. It was a strange, strange thing,
and I knew at the time that she was uncomfortable.
So when I was going to do this podcast, you know,
(21:48):
I have obviously talked to everyone about it in our
world and they have given their blessing, and I said
to you, I just want to check in with you
about the talking to the camera because I remember that
day at the Chinese restaurant, and I remember you and
Darren kind of negotiating how it would go or how much.
And she reminded me of a couple things that I
would never have remembered. One is that she felt really
(22:09):
uncomfortable about it because she felt like, it's really hard
to do It's hard to make it organic because you
are in a scene. And also this what I hadn't remembered.
Matthew Brodrick, her husband, had done it in Ferris Bueller
and Ferris Bueller's Day Off, in case you haven't seen it,
is a huge classic film that was, you know, a
touchstone for all of us as we were growing up,
(22:33):
like it was a formative kind of a viewing experience.
So for Sarah, she felt like, well, Matthew did this
so brilliantly, how am I going to live up to that? Which,
of course I would never remember that, and probably no
viewer would remember that, But it makes perfect sense when
you think about it, because that was an inherent part
of Ferris Bueller's Day Off, right that you're kind of
(22:53):
with the Farris character going through it all and he's
just talking to you in this kind of like kind
of smart, alec adorable, charming, Matthew way, And I think
Sarah felt like that was too hard to do for
an entire show, you know, And it's a good point.
It's a lot. It's a lot of her talking to
the camera. I only had to do it a tiny bit,
and I remember being very hard. So that was really
(23:14):
interesting for me to think about. But then the other thing,
I don't even know if I should get into this
get or whatever, but like all the other people talking
to the camera and the fact that you don't even
see the rest of us for so long, I'd forgotten
all these things until I rewatched it. And then also
Sarah Winter, who's kind of our guest star, and her
her storyline is so fascinating, and then we never find
out what happens. I'm like, what happened to that character?
(23:36):
She just gone? She got ghosted by this guy? Oh? No,
where is she? Is she? Okay? Why don't we ever
talk about her anymore? Like it's super fascinating, you know,
I've forgotten all that we're gonna talk to Sarah. I
know what, I haven't seen the pilot and probably I
(24:02):
mean at least twenty years maybe more, because I was
never a fan of the pilot. I was like, I
don't know about the pilot. I knew in my gut
that the show was like a living, breathing thing that
we should do and that I should be on it
as well as everyone else, but I didn't When I
(24:24):
saw the pilot, I was like, I don't know in
terms of a pilot, right, because back then we were
in like more networking television. It was a different vibe.
And when you see our show, it is also a
different vibe, like it's kind of rough, Like when they
go to Chaos, which I'm not in that scene, and
everyone always asks me about cast and I'm like, I
(24:44):
don't remember casts. That's because I wasn't there. Chaos is
a mess. You're like, what what's happening here? Like did
they just take a camera in there and film people?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Like?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
It's messy and interesting. I mean, very very different from
network TV. Very different. I guess part of my response
to the pilot back then was that it didn't seem polished,
It didn't seem smooth. It seemed kind of choppy and hectic.
But I also feel my personal theory on pilots in
general is that if they're too good. If the pilot
(25:17):
is too formed, the show might not be good. Like
what you want in a pilot is like a like
a spark, like a something like a fissure, like an energy,
and then the show can run on that and you
can form it into something like Clay. And then you
can form it into something if you have the right
(25:37):
creative people and if you have a network who will
allow you to form it, which luckily we did an HBO,
thank god, because we really we went on such a
course of you know, finding each character and the show's vibe,
you know, over the years really and it's actually still
a journey, which is amazing and amazing that we've been
(25:58):
allowed to do that. But I remember watching the pilot
myself at the time, and the scene that I remembered
and loved, and I feel like everyone feels this way
is the last scene with Big and Carrie in the
car and when she gets out, and first of all,
the village, I mean, it's unrecognizable, Okay, the city in general.
You're just like, I can't even believe it's changed as
(26:20):
much as it's changed. I mean, it's still glorious, but
it's just it was like it looks like the seventies,
almost true. I mean that's at a little questionable to say,
and people who are in New York and the seventies
might disagree with me, But I mean it's rough looking.
It's fascinatingly rough looking, except for the met stairs of course,
(26:41):
very glamorous, but Sarah on the street and we used
to film in Super sixteen, which is very different than
how we film now, so it's got a kind of
a rougher quality to the actual film stock. And it's
just so interesting, like an indie film. It reminds me
of an indie film, and also an indie film in
terms of like, you're here, you're there. There's not a
(27:02):
lot of explanation, there's not a lot of backstory. People
are just talking to you, and then you're in chaos
and people are smoking cigars and like it's a very
interesting and slightly chaotic situation. But really I wanted to
know more, Like when I watched it last night, I'm like,
I want to know all about Miranda. I feel like
(27:23):
Miranda in that suit with that hair eating, you know,
like calling a skipper skippy and then she pushes it
up against the wall. I don't remember any of this.
I obviously wasn't there when they filmed it, but I
was like, I want to go with her, Like, what's
her job? What's she doing? And I guess it said
corporate lawyer, But like, I want to follow her there.
You know, she's super fascinating and funny and weird. And
(27:45):
then Samantha is so sophisticated and powerful. You know, this
is my other thought. When I was watching the show,
I was like, the three of them are very powerful.
Charlotte not so powerful, not so powerful at all. Charlotte's
like a puppy. You know. I really was like, this
is super fascinating. So I have this other story. So
(28:06):
I told you about testing, and I had this big,
big deal. It was like a big, thick, seven year deal.
When we're doing the pilot. This producer, I think she
was like a maybe a line producer, like not an
executive producer. One day I'm in my trailer and she
comes to my trailer and she knocks on my door
and I opened it and you know, yes, and she says, oh, well,
(28:27):
we have this paperwork we need you to fill out.
And I was like, okay, I take the paperwork and
I look at it and it seems to be like
a new contract, but it's only two pages long, and
I'm like, what is this? And it says like, you know,
you will be a recurring character and you will be
paid five thousand dollars And I was like what, So
I call my lawyer. I'm like, Jason, he's still my Jason.
(28:49):
Just give me this newpaperwork. What do I do? He said,
do not sign it. I was like, but but they're
gonna ask me. What am I gonna say? Because I'm
a good girl, you know, I'd like to do my
things right. And he's like, I just just say you
forgot it. So you forgot it. And I'm like, Okay,
what is going on? He said, I don't know. I'm
going to find out. I'll call them. I don't know.
I know that the pilot's costing a lot and that
(29:09):
they're stressed at HBO about it. I think the pilot
costs like two point five million roughly, which at the
time was a lot because no one really filmed in Manhattan.
Right when you look at it, it does not look
like it cost a lot. But I think just being
in the locations we were in cost a lot. So
I was like, oh God, Oh Jesus, what are they
trying to do to me? He goes happening. I was
so stressed, and then I was just like, I'm just
(29:32):
not going to mention this to anybody else. I'm just
going to pretend like everything's fine, you know. But inside
I was really really nervous about it, and I didn't
know what it meant. Darren didn't say anything to me
about it, so I thought, well, if Darren's not saying
anything to me about it, then everything must be okay.
I don't know. I was scared. But it was also
very clear from the book and from the script and
(29:53):
from the pilot that Charlotte's point of view was a
different point of view than the other girls. Now that
they all share the exact same point of view, they don't.
But when we do have that group scene about trying
to have sex like a man, and I'm like what
you know? And I make crazy faces, you know, like
what romance? You know, it's very clear that I'm on
a different trajectory, And you do kind of think, like,
(30:15):
how did Charlotte get to be friends with these girls?
Like this is interesting, right, but do you feel like
that is how friend groups are like you're gonna have
a variety of friend groups. I always thought that was
weird through the years, when people would bring that up
to me, like why are you friends with them? I'd
be like, why wouldn't I be friends with them? Right?
They're fascinating, They're interesting. I think Charlotte was trying to
like learn from them, or you know, hopefully some of
(30:38):
that would rub off on her or whatever. But honestly,
when I looked back on it, I was like, well, now,
I do think they were trying to save money, but
I also think that they were like, well, she's so different,
and the other three are kind of powerful, like in control,
trying to navigate this relationship thing where we're talking about
(30:59):
these issues, and you know, can women have sex like
men and not have feelings? You know, like what does
it mean to be ghosted?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
You know?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Why are there so many incredible single women and all
these toxic bachelors Like I get all of the points.
And then to have Charlotte be kind of this looking
for love, you know, naive character, which obviously I knew
she was. It is different. It is definitely different, But
in my gut, I felt like it was really important
(31:27):
to have this other character. So even though I was
super stressed about this weird paperwork thing, I did feel like, no, no,
they need me, you know. I felt inside that they
needed me. And I'm so happy that I did, because
obviously it could have really gone wrong, right, like anyone
could get recast or cut out or at any time
(31:47):
in our business. But in my gut, I didn't feel
like that would happen. And I'm so thankful that I
that I didn't and that I had faith in myself.
I really am unsure why. In some ways, you know
what I'm saying. I wasn't the most super confident person
or whatever, but I do feel like when things come
to you and you have something that connects with that
(32:08):
and you have something that you want to be able
to express or create or whatever, and something that you
want to be a part of, because I know, I
desperately wanted to be a part of it, like I
thought it was like the most incredible job ever, you know.
And when I watch that group scene, all I see
is how much I want to connect with them, you know,
(32:28):
how much I want to be with them and fit in,
which is kind of heartbreaking in a certain way, but
also that is kind of Charlotte. You know, that is
kind of in a way like she wants to be loved,
she wants to find love, she wants to have love
with her girlfriend, she wants to connect, you know. And
I do relate to that still, But when I look
back on it, I'm like, wow, I was like a
(32:49):
floppy puppy and they're like sophisticated power, you know, like Samantha.
I mean, I was just like, she's like a purring
cat of power, and you know, like she's in there
using her tools, and Kim does it so well, and
then Miranda is like an awkward power you know what
(33:11):
I'm saying. Like, and then Carrie, I forgot this whole
scene where she goes to try to have sex with
Bill Sage's character and gets out of bed and is like,
you know, good luck. He's like what about me, and
she's like never mind and she gets out of bed.
I was like, wow, I totally forgot about this. How incredible.
But I do remember that we were it was, you know,
shocking in many ways to be talking about sex in
(33:33):
this kind of open way at the time, and I
remember that we were nervous about the response, like would
women like it? Like we were trying to make it
for women, but we were like, are they going to
be turned off? Because I do think there's a lot
to think about in terms of like the male gaze
and how like at that time in films there was
a lot of sexuality, but it was from the director's
(33:55):
point of view or the male actors, like it was
from the male gaze, not necessarily from empowering women. I mean,
with a few exceptions, like I can think of like
that Melanie Griffith movie in Manhattan, what was it culed?
Do you remember sidebar? We'll figure it out later. Working girl,
good job, good job, working girl, working girl. Incredible, Like
there were like like here and there a little and
(34:18):
we talk about the Last Seduction. We talk about that
in the film, and that was also like a super
powerful female character, Linda Fiorentino, remember her, You're too young anyway,
you know, like there were things here and there where
the women were powerful kind of sexual beings, but there
was no TV show like that at all. Right, So
(34:39):
like from that perspective, I think about how amazing it
was to be a part of it and how much
fear we had about the response of it to it,
you know, but also how incredible that we got to
do it, you know, and how far everything has come.
But yet when you look back, we don't use the
term ghosting, but obviously Sarah Winter's character is ghost before
(35:00):
we had a term for it, which is always a
very perplexing thing and still very much something you know,
we discuss in our culture. And then also, you know,
can women have sex like men? I mean, I think
it's a valid question. I do feel like that part
of the conversation has definitely come a long way. Like
I feel like, you know, the casual hookup became very
(35:21):
like acceptable in a certain way, in a more kind
of equal men and women way, which is great, but
wasn't true in the nineties. I don't feel like, I mean,
it might have been true, but I don't know that
we were open about it, you know. But anyway, I
think those things are super fascinating, and those were the
two big themes of the show. And then also, I mean,
I thought so many things watching the show, but one
(35:42):
of the things I thought was, like, every male character
in this show is awful. Okay, they're awful. Why do
we even want to date them? Why? Why? And thank
god we wrote toxic bachelor on each one, because all
of them, all of them, even Skipper, I mean, he's
just I don't know, well, I'm not I'm not buying
the Skipper of it all. I hadn't really remembered the
(36:03):
Skipper of it all. I just love how Miranda is
with him, where she's just like Skippy. You know, it's
just so funny. But I mean it's super fascinating all
of it, all of it. And then I mean there's
so many other things that I've left out. For one thing,
I just want to talk about Sarah Jessica. We're gonna
have a little Sir Jesca talk right now. She's got
her brown hair. Love it. I love it so much.
I know we had to go blind, but like to
(36:25):
see her brown hair curly natural and her eyes, My
good Lord, like, thank God, we built an empire on
this woman. She is incredible, dur I'm saying, like I
was floored. I had not watched this thing is so long,
and her ease and grace and like also intelligence and depth. Right,
(36:48):
but like the scene on the street where she meets
Big and she drops the condoms, but then also when
she's leaving, you know, she almost like she has to
fix her skirt behind her Like her physical comedy is
so brilliant but also subtle. And then also like when
she has this scene with Bill Sage where she's like,
oh my god, I forgot Willy. Oh my god, when
Willy comes on the screen, I might cry. Sorry, but
(37:09):
you know, he's so young and he's so beautiful and
I really had forgotten, you know, sorry, but I had
to stop.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
When I was watching it, I was like, oh my god,
we were just little little babies, you know. And he's
so funny and their relationship is so great and they
had been friends for so long. So I love it
that it's on camera.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
I have to stop this for a little seconds in
the scene, I was thinking about the scene that Willy
and Sarah are in together and.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
You know, he's telling her like, don't go talk to him,
and she's like, no, no, you know, I'm doing research.
And she's so seductive and funny and like her eyes.
I'm like, well, who could say no to her? Like,
who could say no to her? She's incredible. That was
fun to watch, Like, I don't know that I think.
I was just like, I'm just gonna do everything she tells.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Me to do. Like that's what I feel like at
the time when I met her, you know, she seemed
so much more sophisticated, and I mean she frankly just
is more sophisticated than I am. And I just remember thinking, like,
whatever she says, I'm gonna do it, I'm going to
try to do it. Like if she says to grow
my hair, and I'm gonna grow my hair out. You know,
if she says to wear longer shirts, I'm gonna wear
longer shirts. I'm just gonna try to do whatever she says.
(38:29):
And I did, which is great. But it's really funny
to look at everything she brings and how she shifted
the role of Carrie to kind of suit her, but
also she made her more kind of like every woman
in a way. I mean, I know this is obviously debatable,
(38:50):
and the show goes on a long time and everyone
has opinions about Carrie, but you know, she's so fascinating
and I don't think that our whole trajectory would ever
have worked if Sarah had played less, do you know
what I'm saying? Like she added so much depth and thinking,
Like her intelligence shows through in so many ways because
(39:13):
she is a columnist, and she is thinking about, well,
why this and why that? And you know, she is
the reason that we could all deepen out, you know,
because if she hadn't brought that, then the rest of
us would have been able to do that. So I
thought about that watching it like, it's a pretty incredible performance,
even in the messiness of us trying to find ourselves
(39:38):
and her apartment. Oh my god, I still can't get
over that apartment and what I think it was, because
I mean, obviously we changed to the Perry Street apartment,
which was not supposed to be Pari Street. It supposed
to be that our breast side, which is where Candace
actually lived. And Candace I believe, did actually live over
a coffee shop. Remember they show that neon side of
the coffee shop and then that really really incredibly messy apartment.
(39:59):
I mean, it's super interesting, but I was shocked. I
do not remember it being that dark and that messy,
and I'm really glad that we changed it. Okay, So
as you can see, I have many stories. I have
stories for days, stories for days, and I look forward
to telling them all to you. But I also have
an exciting guest who're going to bring the very first
guest star, Sarah Winter in to talk to me. She's
(40:20):
the very first face that you see in the pilot
and she's so lovely and I have such fond memories
ever and I can't wait to see her again. And
that is going to be on our next episode of
Are You a Charlotte? And I think we're gonna ask Sarah,
are you a Charlotte? Let's ask her, let's find out
thanks for being with me.
Host
Kristin Davis
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