May 9, 2025 • 39 mins
In this special edition of The Conclave Crew, Raymond Arroyo, Fr. Gerald Murray, and Robert Royal unpack the election of Pope Leo XIV — the first American pope in history. They explore the meaning behind his papal name, his ties to both Francis and Benedict, and what his traditional vestments and carefully chosen words signal about his leadership style. Is he a continuation of Pope Francis, or a return to deeper roots?
The crew dives into the most pressing issues facing Pope Leo: the future of synodality, the Vatican’s massive financial crisis, and the delicate balance of tradition and reform. They also discuss his record on Church governance, past abuse cases in Peru and Chicago, and the expectations around his approach to due process and doctrinal clarity.
With sharp insight and unflinching commentary, this episode offers a clear-eyed look at the man now at the helm of the Catholic Church — and the many challenges that lie ahead.
Brought to you by Taylor Frigon Capital Management… Faith, Family and Finances - taylorfrigon.com
Brought to you by Floriani, revitalizing sacred music - floriani.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Habemos Popham. We have a Pope Leo the fourteenth. Now
the media are telling you he's an American, he's a
White Sox fan. But we have the full portrait of
the new Pope and what it means to the church
on this edition of The Conclave Crew. Welcome to this
(00:22):
Royal Grande series, The Conclave Crew Vatican Edition, Episode six.
This episode is brought to you by our friends at
Taylor for Gone Capital, Management, Faith, family and Finances. Visit
them at Taylorfregan dot com, as well as Floriani Revitalizing
Sacred music at Floriani dot org. Who is the new
(00:43):
Pope Leo the fourteenth. Let's convene the crew, Father Gerald
Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York, and
Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing dot org. Gents,
thanks for being here. I'm Raymond Arroyo. Go subscribe to
the Royal Grande Podcast on iHeart Apples, Spotify or on
you Tube at the Arroyo Grande show page and like
this episode. Pope Leo the fourteenth, Robert Privos was the
(01:07):
dark horse candidate in this conflict. We even discussed him
in earlier episodes, including yesterday, Robert, you called him out,
you mentioned him.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Actually, we were in.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
That discussion some online. We're giving him credit for that.
So here I'm tipping my hat to you, Robert. He's
a sixty nine year old Chicago native an Augustinian priest.
He spent most of his life as a missionary bishop
in Peru. Then he was tapped by Pope Francis to
run the Vatican office that selects and appoints bishops three
years ago. Two years ago, he was made a cardinal.
(01:39):
His appearance was greeted with cheers in Saint Peter's Square.
Chance let's start with the name. I have to tell you,
I was standing in the square. The Italians were not.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Too happy with this selection.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
The Americans were jubilant. The Italians were a little less.
So let's start with the name from Leo the Great.
There have been thirteen popes with that name, Leo. Why
do you think he chose it, Father Jerry.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I think he's signaling that he wants to continue with
the teaching of Pope Leo the thirteenth, who is the
father of Catholic social teaching in the modern era, and
precisely because Leo the thirteenth was a great defender of
the working man, of the rights of workers to organize,
to form unions. But we also have to remember that
(02:34):
he also condemned socialism, and he defended the right to
private property, which in reality is also part of Catholic
social teaching, despite what some social justice warriors occasionally claim.
So I think this is a very important signal that
he is very interested in the social teaching of the Church,
maintaining a presence in the we could say the public
(02:55):
square as regards economic life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Bob further reflections on that that choice of Leo I
was surprised.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Actually another Leo I.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Was too, I must say, and look, Benedict the sixteenth
chose to follow Benedict the fifteenth, who was early in
the twentieth century and helped to build up a sense
of peace at a time of war. I get the
impression that Leo the fourteenth wants to reach back, as
father was saying, to that foundation of modern Catholic social
(03:29):
thought in Leo the thirteenth. In my book A Deeper Vision,
which is about the modern Catholic intellectual tradition, I have
a great, an intricate and careful analysis of what Leo did.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And one of the things that.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Leo did was he also created the resurgence of studies
of same time as aquirements, and he linked the two
so much so that my friend Russell Hittinger, who's an
expert on natural law and modern Catholic social thought, has
pointed out that Leo never talked about social thought without
mentioning Thomas. Now, I don't know that Leo the fourteenth
(04:02):
has exactly got that in mind, but I would hope
that he would not just accept the framework of modern
politics and economics, but would actually be reaching deeply into
our Catholic tradition.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Of thinking about society.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And bring something new and dynamic and creative to a
circumstance that is very, very troubling in many ways.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Father, What did you make of the mozetta that he
was wearing that red cape that is traditional for the
pope to wear. I mean, we did not see that
from Pope Francis. I mean, though he is considered Leo
the fourteenth is considered to be in the vein of
Pope Francis, and we'll get altered into that in a moment,
But contrast that image with that of Pope Francis the
first time we saw him.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yes, Leo made the conscious choice to observe the traditional
practice that popes come out. They're wearing the white cassi
for the first time, but then they're wearing the mozetta,
which is red, which is the symbol of a bishop.
They're wearing the pope wears then the red stole symbol
and anything martyrdom. And then there are two martyrs pictured
(05:07):
on that, Peter and Paul, who are the two founders
that we say of the church in Rome. And then
he of course then followed the ritual very carefully, because
there's a ritual with some prayers which go back, you know,
to the old Mass. Even those prayers they were I
was listening to them. He has, by the ways, Latin
(05:28):
is very good. He said them worst beautifully. He had
written out his comments in Italian, which probably reflects the
fact that he doesn't think spontaneously in Italian, so he
wanted to have them written. But they were good remarks,
so I was impressed. He was sending a signal of
continuity with previous posts. Pope Francis, basically we learned from
(05:50):
sources that he viewed that as too much of a spectacle,
and he didn't want to participate in it. But in
a way you could say that Pope Leo was subsuming
his personality right into the office and was stepping away
from making How can we say statements that indicate personal preferences?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
He did say in his first address, and I remember,
you know, I couldn't make it all out, because as
we've been commenting it, it was very hard to hear
in Saint Peter Square or above it. He did say,
we need to be a sonotyl church and reach out
in dialogue and encounter. What does that mean, Robert Royle?
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Well, look, it can mean any number of things, because,
as we've said over and over against cinidality itself is
kind of an empty sack that could be either filled
or not filled, depending on who the pope happens to be. Yeah,
he really did emphasize the continuity with Francis quite a bit.
But his father rightly says, not only in the way
that he vested himself or was vested for the event yesterday,
(06:51):
but the way he carries himself. He conveys, I've spoken
to a number of people back home in America as
well as here in Rome and the way he conducts
himself is as a serious man. I'm mature man who's
careful about what he says and brings a kind of
I think he brings back a little bit of the
majesty already of what the Pope is like, even though
(07:12):
he's an American and we're not supposed to have, you know,
sort of of that kind of mentality in us. It'll
be interesting to see where that goes, because you can
be you can be in continuity with the previous pope
and yet at the same time practice a certain innovation.
And the very fact that he chose that name that
jumped back a century and more to the name of Leo.
(07:33):
It'll be interesting to see where he goes.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And I don't think we can predict. Father.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I thought of you when I heard that we were
standing on the balcony together. You were doing a hit
and I was right there, and I thought, my gosh,
how much time have we spent trying to determine what
the term citidelity means? And here's the Pope saying we
need a sonotyl church. I've been waiting for this. What
is your take on that? And what do you think
he intends?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Well? I think he's signaling to the cardinals and others,
particularly the cardinals who voted for him, that he is
going to not stop this Sonadyl process that Poe Francis began,
because it's quite clear those who criticized the Sonadyl path
were hoping to elect a pope who would put an
end to it. This certainly was my hope, because cinidality
(08:20):
is a vague concept, and it really is a change
from what it originally meant. Cinnidale is based on the
word sind sined in the modern sense, was created by
Paul the six after a Vatican two to have a
forum in which bishops throughout the world would meet periodically
to advise the pope on the needs of the church
in the modern world. Pope Francis turned it into a
(08:42):
meeting of laity, priests, deacons, nuns, and bishops and gave
everybody an equal vote. And this was indicative. It's kind
of like it was a stage post or a way
station on the way to what they're going to have
in twenty twenty eight, which is the ecclesial Assembly in
which bishops will not be the majority in Rome. And
I wrote a column at the Catholic thing, tearing into
(09:05):
it which it deserves to be. We are not a
church in which the hierarchy is an appendage. It's a
hierarchical church with synidal experiences. It's not a synidel church
with hierarchical appendages. That's what I'm very much afraid of.
So it's not clear what Leo means by cynidal church.
(09:26):
But if it means the ecclesial Assembly in twenty twenty eight,
well get ready because there's going to be a lot
of opposition based on the fact that this is completely
at odds with the hierarchical nature of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, it's also at odds with the founding of the church.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
The Lord didn't bring all the disciples and everybody following
him through Galley and say, hey, guys, you all of
the power to loose and bind. Whatever you bind on
earth is bond in Heaven, and loosed on earth is
loosed in earth. No, he gave that only to Peter
and then to the apostles. It's a very limited group.
So it does kind of corrupt the vision of church
(10:03):
governance when you start bringing atheists in and non believers
in and everybody and their dog in and then you
and only a select group of cardinals who.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Agree with you. That's a problem, Bob, I'll give you
the last word on this.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Yeah, I think that the next stage to look toward
because for others, right the twenty twenty eight is if
that's going to continue on the way it was originally planned,
that's going to be a big problem.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Which we know that the grove from the Jameli clinic
from his really his hospital bed.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
But we know that in June, those ten study groups
that were established at the end of the last Senate
in October, that basically took the hot button issues off
the table. Women, deacons, you know, all that sort of stuff.
Their reports are doing June. So presumably those committees have
(10:52):
been working on this all this time in spite of
the fact that Francis was ill. They're supposed to deliver
reports in June. If they do that and they are
submitted to Pope Leo, we can see how he reacts
to that, what he's going to do with him. Does
he immediately kind of publish them, or does he say, well,
you know, let me think this.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Over a bit.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
That'll be our first indication. I think our first solid
indication of what he intends to do.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Look, we always said, and I was told by cardinals,
including many of whom we had meetings and dinners and
encounters with over the last ten days or so, that
an American could not be named Pope. America is already
powerful enough. You don't need an American pope. Yet, Pope
Leo is the first American in history. Why do you
(11:38):
think they elected him, Father, I'm told in part because
of the financial straits of the Vatican, a two billion
dollar deficit, four hundred million dollars in unpaid pensions.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Father, Why an American?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Well, I think that's one of the two important reasons. Well,
there are number reason but I'll give two that I
think are important. One is precisely this. They understand that
someone coming what we call the Anglo sphere, in other words,
the Anglo Saxon world English speaking world, that financial competence
and rigor are normal in the operations of the economies
(12:12):
of England, Australia, Canada and the United States. And therefore
there's hope that he will bring that kind of vision
to the reform here. Because we're talking two billion dollar
pension hold, we're talking major operating deficits every year. We're
talking mismanagement of assets. So hopefully Pope Leo will bring
(12:36):
in some very serious and powerful minds and voices to
say no, we're going to top to bottom renewal. Secondly,
he really is a Latin American in experience because his
priesthood has lived in Peru at the beginning and then
at the end when he was a bishop in Chiclio.
His Spanish is perfect, so he is by experience he's
(12:57):
really a Latin American, but he's also in North America,
and so he's both Americans. I think that was attracted.
You know. Other reasons of court has to do with
the fact that he was appointed to this important position
at the Dicastra of bitious Bipope France hasn't made a
cardinal by him, So the continuity with Pope Francis is
assumed by those who voted for him, because they would
(13:17):
say he wouldn't be here to be elected pope if
it weren't for Pope Francis. Those are some of the
things I think are going on.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Bob, how do you think this will impact having an
American pope Pope Leo?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
How will that.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Impact his relationship with America, which we have to say
has been tense since Trump came to town.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah. Look, I hear some people saying, and this is
part of that over speculation that takes place at a
moment like this. I hear some people saying that the
Cardinals chose him to confront Trump. I think this is
utter nonsense, because what they're primarily concerned about are some
of the issues we just mentioned that are really pressing
(13:56):
on the church at this moment. In fact, it might
actually help that he knows the United States pretty well.
I was a little bit disappointed that he didn't use
any English during his initial address last evening, because look,
he is, Yes, he is very much a Latin American.
Now he's very much a Roman. He's spent a number
of years now in Rome. But darn it, you know
(14:18):
you are who you are. I mean, he started on
the South side of Chicago. I think you ought to
be proud of that. And it's you know, we are
all sensitive to the cultural issues like centidality, homosexuality, you know, women, priests,
all that.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
But I think he's shown himself to be a safe
pair of hands. And as I said earlier, he's impressed
a number of people. He's even impressed me. I mean,
I'm just seeing him on TV, but he's he the
emotion that he showed last night and the kind of
maturity that he seems to radiate. I think if you
were looking around and saying, look, we need to clean
house here in Rome and calm down a bit and
(14:55):
take some of those practical steps that we know we
need to take, but we don't seem to have been
able to do. You could You could be worse. And
on top of it, he knows a lot of these
bishops who have been appointed because he was the headman
in that that office. So there are a number of
things that come together that could be helpful. He probably
isn't going to look that American to most Americans back
in North.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
America, but he is an American.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Yeah, And I want rub it in that that I
won't put rub it in that I projected yesterday that
it's not impossible.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Well, well we have the video evidence. Unfortunately, or I
would deprive you of that, but I can't. And look,
in his first Mass at the Assistine Chapel, the Pope
used the crozure of Poe Benedict, so so it's being
reported others say that that Crozier is actually Paul the six.
I don't know who's right here, but does that have
any meaning?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Father?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yes? And he also began the sermon in English. He
did off the coup remarks, and he could. I think
somebody told them, you know, the Americans are waiting for
you to talk in English at the balcony, which he
didn't do.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I mean he's stressing continuity, and uh, it's with not
just Francis, but Pope Benedict and even John Paul. He
had quoted John Paul. And let's just say this. The
sermon was a very serious sermon in which he talked
about practical atheism, talked about challenges in the modern world
(16:16):
that the Church faces. He talked about the necessity of
preaching the Gospel to the world christo centric, we would say,
centered on Christ. So I was impressed with the sermon,
and I think the cardinals listening were too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Look, anytime you mentioned ignacious of Antioch and giving yourself,
you know, for the faith, that's pretty good stuff. I
want to give the audience a little taste. This is
the opening of his homily, which he pronounced in English.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Watch begin with a word in English and the rest
is in Italian. But I want to repeat the words
from the response Orial Psalm. I will sing a new
song to the Lord because he has done marvels, and indeed,
not just with me, but with all of us, my
(17:01):
brother cardinals, as we celebrate this morning, I invite you
to recognize the marvels that the Lord has done, the
blessings that the Lord continues to pour out upon all
of us through the ministry of Peter. You have called
me to carry that cross and to be blessed with
(17:23):
that mission. And I know I can rely on each
and every one of you to walk with me as
we continue as a church, as a community of friends
of Jesus, as believers, to announce the good News, to
announce the Gospel.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Bob, what do you make of that?
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Well, look, it's nice.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
And we had a pope.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Someone priest pointed out to me a little while ago
that Pope Francis was really the only modern pope in
the twentieth century and on who didn't speak English, and
that doubtless tilted his understanding of the world somewhat.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
We have to expect that Pope Leo is also because
he's largely now a Latin American and his mentality is
going to be absorbed somewhat into that view. But if
he's very serious about presenting the Gospel to the world,
and he's serious about how the church is going to
form the world at this moment of transition that we
seem to be in a variety of ways, we're going
(18:26):
to have to bring in some new energies. And I
think some of those energies are going to have to
come from English speaking sources, because we're the place where
the modern world has actually succeeded, at least economically, you know,
more or less politically. We have all kinds of crises
in the English speaking world. But for him to step
out with that, I think is going to expand the
mentality a little bit. Because what language you use makes
(18:49):
a difference.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Well, and our contry of Father Murray said yesterday on
the podcast that this should be the basic and foundational
language used at the that and that it should be English.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Maybe he's listening to the podcast, Father.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Well, in the global world, you want to imitate the
UN start using English. I mean, yeah, it's uh, oh,
I've said I've thought this for a long time. English
is the language. I mean, airplane pilots have to know English,
and it's a practicality that things get done easily when
people can understand each other. So yeah, that would be
a basics that battalion is this minor language in the
(19:28):
old or a world picture. It's important because it's the
language of the Holy See.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
We had a few comments.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Some were saying, oh, Father Murray is saying we should
replace the Latin with English. No, no, no, he's saying
the language used to converse in Vatican offices and in
the Vatican City state right now, it's Italian, it's not Latin.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah no, And let me note this. He's a canon lawyer,
the new Poe, and I'm a canon lawyer, so I
like that. But I like it for other reasons. But
you know, one of which is the laws written in Latin,
because that is a whole history up to this point.
And then with all the different translations, good to have
a reference point. So kind of Lord should stay in Latin.
But yeah, I mean office memos in English would be
(20:06):
very practical.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Father Pope Leo has asked all the courial heads. That
means all the men who run and women in some
cases these various dicastries in the Vatican, the Vatican offices,
he's asked them to stay in their positions for the
time being, to keep their respective jobs until further Notice.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
What does that tell you?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, that's a standard practice when the new pope comes in,
and it's a wise practice because you know, when the
office is reopen after this, you know, momentous time of
the pope's death and the burial and now the election
new pope. You know, there's a lot of work that
has to be done, and if the leader is not
there at each of these departments, it becomes a little
bit difficult the real but the tell, as they would say,
(20:49):
is going to be who does he replace and who
does he keep in place? Because you know, the heads
of these dicasteries were very much disciples of Pope Francis
and often opponents of implementing radical ideas at an accelerated pace.
Even so, we'll get a read on Pope frances on
(21:10):
Pope Leo's continuity program by seeing who's laughed and who's replaced.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Bob Poblio spent a lot of time in Peru. How
does that experience that missionary experience shape this pontificate. I mean,
you heard it in his opening comment when he was
on the Logia the other day, basically that the pastors
should smell of the sheep and they have to walk
with the people.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, Peru has been a very troubled place. Most English
speakers in North America don't know much about Peru, but
Peru went through a terrible period toward the end of
the twentieth century with a movement called Sindero Luminoso, which
was a Marxist import from China. It's just ripped up
the whole society. They began to reform, and they've in
(21:53):
recent decades too, they've had a number of political ups
and downs, let's put it that way. So he's confronted
in check Clio's a relatively small diocese. I have a
personal connection with it because a priest that I grew
up with in my little parish in Connecticut was sent
his missionary down there. He was supposed to be there
for a few years, and he loved it, and he
(22:14):
just stayed the whole time. And you know, we all
kind of fell close to it and where I grew up.
But look, he's seen that I think he was the
vice president of the bishop's conference there, and so he's
seen the turmoil of Latin America. And in a way,
that political turmoil maybe is something that he's thinking about
when he takes the name Leo the fourteenth. But I
(22:37):
would also say that there is an evangelizing turmoil. That
we know that the Pentecostals and the other sort of
evangelical groups are growing by leaps and bounds in these places,
and so you can lament that that's happening, but you
have to do something. And in many of the places
in Latin America that I'm familiar with, the reason why
(22:59):
people leave the churches precisely because they want to get
away from politics. The church is too politicized, either for
liberation theology or you know, something or other. That's going
to be a tough needle for him to thread, and
it'll be interesting to keep an eye on what he
does with that.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Well, that's a great intro to what we talked about
the other day, which is really the challenges facing the
church right now in the post Francis era, if you will,
and then now in the beginning of the Leo era.
So I want to talk about how well Pope Leo
might be disposed or perhaps not to embrace some of
these challenges.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
In an earlier episode, we.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Talked about the collapse of due process father in the
church canonical norms under Pope Francis. They were just shattered,
as you mentioned a moment ago, Robert Privos. Now Pope
Leo is a canon lawyer, tell me restate some of
the problems that in your mind need addressing, and how
he may approach these canonical issues and how culpable he
(23:56):
may be in a way that Pope Francis perhaps was not.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Well since yea, as a canon lawyer, he knows the rules.
He knows why the rules are put in place. In
other words, they're not arbitrary things invented just to keep
the powerful powerful. Were The canon law is designed to
guarantee respect for the rights of everyone in the church,
so the hierarchs have to follow procedures when they are
questions regarding people subject to them. There are a lot
(24:22):
of issues remaining that need to be looked at. We
have sex abuse enforcement, I mean right now we have
bishops and Ketta who was announced to be under a
canonical process over three or four years ago. I can't
remember how long, but we've never heard another word about
So that process has to be brought to completion because
guess what. This man was convicted in the civil court
(24:44):
in Argentine of confusing seminarians. There's no reason why this man,
if guilty, found guilty and countercross should not be removed
from the priest. Same with Father Rupnik, Marco Rupnik. He
was thrown out of the Jesuits because he wouldn't cooperate
with them and their investigation of sexual abuse of nuns
who were under his spiritual care. So sex abuse is
(25:06):
going to be something very important to look at. Similarly,
we have to look at how investigations are done with
religious orders because Pope Francis had a hostility and this
is noted this I'm not inventing this To more traditional
and charismatic type groups in the church, some of them
had problems. There's no doubt, you know. The Soda Litzio
(25:27):
in Peru was the founder of it was guilty of
sex abuse and others in the group participated, but Pope
Francis abolished the group and a lot of good members
were felt that there was not enough due process. The
Institute of the Incarnate Word is currently under investigation now.
Its founder in Argentina was also found guilty of sexual
(25:48):
abuse of miners or seminarians. But that group is worldwide.
In fact, Pope always called the parish in Gaza, you know,
every night and the pastor there is a member of that.
So there are a lot of groups in France have
similar investigations going on. We never heard the end about
the Franciscans of the Immaculate in Italy and elsewhere. They
(26:10):
were putting under a moderator and no resolutions. So they're
going to be those canonical investigations that need to be completed.
Opus Stay they change the law regarding personal prelators. It's
a complicated canonical thing. Won't go into but you know,
Opus Stay was given the opportunity to submit their own
(26:31):
revised statutes, and they were at a meeting when the
Pope died in which they were going to come up
with their final proposals, so they suspended the statute proposal.
New Pope's going to take that up. So those are
some of the things. These are canonical issues and the
reason they're important is everybody else is watching and if
they feel that if these groups feel they were treated unfairly,
(26:53):
and everyone else is going to be suspicious if fairness
is evident. That's how you have social harmony in the church.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, let's get into some of the other areas that
Pope will be contending with. The Pope Leo when he
was Cardinal Robert Privos is being quoted in the media
as saying this in a twenty twenty twelve addressed Catholic
pastors who preach against legalization of abortion or the redefinition
of marriage are portrayed as being ideologically driven, severe and uncaring.
(27:25):
He went on to call out the media for depicting
the quote homosexual lifestyle and same sex partners with their
adopted children as a challenge your thoughts, Bob, on these
quotes and the upsegment that some gay groups are communicating today,
they say, wait, this is a departure from Pope Francis.
He was welcoming us and these comments are just abrasive
(27:50):
and hostile.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Well, I'm glad to hear that. I mean, that's actually
though thirteen years ago, and the question is right now.
Pope France has said a lot of strong things about
pro life, about protecting life in the woman, protecting life
at the end of natural life, but he didn't do much,
and I would like to see some more action and
(28:13):
even drum beating. France has actually discouraged people from doing
from being obsessed and focused on the pro life issues
and the gay issues, and I think that that was
to his detriment because he just kind of in advance
and announced, Yeah, we're going to say this, but we're
not going to do anything as far as the gay
thing goes. In addition to what Father was just saying
about the high handedness that France has often showed towards
(28:38):
these other groups, I would hope that in addition to
following the law, that Leo would look deeply into why
it is that it's been so difficult to move the
needle within the church on homosexuality. And clearly there is
some kind of protective network that exists. It was also
(28:59):
personal when it came aimed to Francis with the cases
of Unchetta, and it appears also with Reupnik to some degree.
But we know that there's some kind of protective network
here that needs to be rooted out. It simply can't
go on that at a time when as we're learning
that the young priests were coming into the church in
the United States and elsewhere are deeply, deeply satisfied being heterosexual.
(29:23):
Homosexuals pretending not to go into the seminary that the
church in terms of its general culture has kind of turned.
There can't any longer be this network that has protected
the Mcharics and the Unchettas and on and on and on,
And he's going to have to look very carefully into this.
John Paul wasn't able to do it, and we know
he would like to have done it. Benedict was not
(29:46):
able to do it, and we know he would like
to have done it. Francis talked about it, he issued
some documents, but was still not very far from where
we were when he became Hopes. So this is a
burning issue life and redefining sexuality in the family in
a way that makes sense and stands strong against the
activism of these homosexual groups.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Father, I want you to invite you into this. I
know you're probably champion of a bit.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Go ahead. Yeah. No, Bob's got a very good point.
And this goes back to what member Bishop Morlino, who
made a speech to the US bishops and says, you know,
we have to confront the fact that there's a homosexual
problem in the clergy and this cannot be tolerated. So
what it basically means is the Vatican has to make
it clear priests who are unchased, meaning they don't live,
(30:34):
you know, Christian teaching about sexual purity, they're unchased, they
are a blot on the priesthood. They have to reform
their lives or be removed. Because you can have a
system in which people are expected to teach a series
of propositions that the Church considers to be the truth,
and yet they reject them in their own lives. And
(30:55):
I'm sure in private tell people, you know, don't pay
attention to this stuff a problem. And then you know,
the more general issue is is it the role of
a bishop as a shepherd to protect the flock in
ways that are going to upset some people. And it
always is, you know, we're not here to please governments,
(31:16):
we're not here to please cooperations, We're not here to
please the homosexual lobby, which says it's unfair that the
Catholic Church stigmatizes what we do. Well, the answer is,
you can go where you want as a person. We
hope you'll embrace Catholicism, but don't try to subvert Catholic
teaching in the name of Christ, saying, well, Jesus was
(31:37):
never severe. What do you mean he wasn't severe. Jesus
is the author of the of the Bible, which says
that homosexual activity is an abomination, so we have to
get to that point.
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Cardinal Privos now Pope Leo was head of the dicastre
of bishops that selected and dispatched We have to just
say it. Many bishops, notably Bishop Strickland in the United
States in Tyler, Texas, Bishop Ray in France, both were removed,
(32:32):
one for saying things on social media that was overboard
about Pope Francis. One for being too orthodox and having
really thriving seminarians in the diocese. But they were too
traditional for the Vatican's taste. I read one story where
Provos ran the visitation that looked into Bishop Ray. Your
(32:53):
thoughts on what this tells us and do you think
it might restore or he might restore those bishops back
to practice?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Bob Well about Strickland, I'm doubtful, although I don't have
any insight, any insight into that that I think was
kind of a personal clash that Bishop Strickland had over
what he thought but Francis was doing, and often his
arguments were well were well taken. This question in France
(33:24):
bothers me a bit more because when someone is described
as being too Orthodox and they have too many seminarians
coming in and the diocese is flourishing, it seems to
me to be normal human reaction to look at it
and say, hey, why is this working?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Too many people want salvation, too many people want to
serve Jesus.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
What's happening?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
You know?
Speaker 4 (33:47):
People are showing up and they want to be priests. Well,
why is there there anything wrong with that? And if look,
if they're going overboard, and maybe they are, you know,
maybe there's a there's a kind of a spirit of
rebellion that can even take place.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
In these traditional plays.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Well, you don't abolish it, though. What you try to
do is you try to work with him. And we
hear a lot that Cardinal Provost was a listener, that
he would listen and proceed in a kind of a
calm and mature way to make decisions. So I'm a
little worried about that, of course, because it just seems
to me inexplicable. It could be that somebody put pressure
(34:23):
on him. Certainly in the case of the appointment of
McElroy in Washington, d C. We have to think that
that was the hand of the Pope specifically reaching in
there and saying I want him moving from San Diego
to Washington, d C. So some of these decisions may
not be entirely his, but he's going to have to
(34:43):
take on the responsibilities. Now, if we don't want a
church that is just going to continue to collapse, and
you know, it'll have a large number of faithful people,
but it'll continue to collapse. Its influence will continue to collapse.
The evangelization, the carrying of the message of Jesus to
the world begins to be weaker and weaker. If we
(35:04):
don't want that, then we need to take some new directions,
and it's not the ones that we've had the past
twelve years. There was no Francis effect.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Father, Do you want to add anything there quickly?
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Well? So, yes. I think it's incumbent on the pope
restore or to give an assignment to bishops who are
removed in ways I consider unjust. Bishop Daniel Fernandez and
Puerto Rico has no assignment. He should be made a
bishop of a diaces or an auxiliary bishop, same with
Strickland and Bishop Ray. He was mistreated and he should
(35:35):
also be given an assignment because the Pope basically removed
them in their diaces as a form of punishment, but
he didn't suspend them, so they still fully function as
priests and mass and confession. This is an anomalous situation.
It shouldn't happen.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
We talked about the sex abuse crisis a little earlier
and how Pope France has shielded friends and colleagues at
times from justice, ignoring the Christ of victims. It has
to be said Pope Leo has his own record in
Peru and Chicago that has gotten some coverage. Since yesterday,
a number of girls in Peru claimed a priest abuse them,
(36:11):
they went to privos and they claim no investigation was
ever opened.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
What will Pope Leo's approach be.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Do you think to restore confidence and transparency in the church?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
What is required now? Father?
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Briefly, well, this case in Peru I read from the
point of view of the complaining people, meaning the people
feel offended by what Cardinal Prevos how we handled the matter.
I think it would be good if we got an
explanation of that. The Peruvian bishops issued a statement a
while ago saying that he did everything right. The candid
(36:45):
lawyer for the three girls who say they're abused by
two priests say he didn't, So I think we need
enlightenment on that. There's also the case in Chicago, whereas
head of the Augustinian Order, he assigned a priest to
live in a been accused by multiple accusations and sexual
abuse of minus. He was put into a rectory which
(37:06):
was located in close proximity to a Catholic grammar school,
and that this was in fact something that Cardinal Supek
had apologized for previously doing a similar assignment. So those
things should be dealt with, and you know, the Pope
if he says, you know, I regret decisions I made,
(37:26):
and I apologize to the victory. It'll be over. I mean,
that's just the way you clear things up.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Well, as you said the other day, just let a
due process trial and investigation proceed and then show no
favoritism to anyone. Everyone is under the same law. That
would restore I think confidence if we just did that
over and under before we go.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Willy live in the Apostolic.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Palace, Bob, Yes, yes, yes, I think that what we
saw by the way he presented himself and whatnot. And
remember Francis didn't go to Santa Marta because it is
it's uncomfortable or it's humble. He just didn't want to
be isolated. And I think it's a much better place
for the Pope to be and he probably understands that
(38:11):
as well.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Yeah, father agreed.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, and let's face it, it's more humble dwellings than
the Santa Marta.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I've been to both.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I can tell you ones like the Hilton. The other
is like a little hostel. The Apostolic Palace is not
as the hallways are grand, but the room it's a
tiny room.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, I mean, it's not much and.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
It's drafty in the winter, one last caveat. This is
not a president or Prime minister. This is the two
hundred and sixty seventh successor of Saint Peter the Apostle,
the Prince of the Apostles.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
And there is grace that it comes with that office, and.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
That's getting lost in a lot of these conversations I'm
seeing in the media. It has power to not only
remake the church, but the man.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Who holds that office. We will watch the.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Rise of Pope Leo the fourteenth together and pray that
God guides him and shapes him in these days to come.
The Royal Grande Conclave Crew Vatican edition concludes, But we
I think we're going to keep the posse going. Yes, guys, Yeah,
let's let's saddle saddle them up. Subscribe to the Royal
(39:14):
Grande Show on YouTube or the Royal Grande Podcast wherever
you get yours.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
And this series been brought to you by our.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Friends at Taylor for Gone Capital, Management, Faith, Family and
Finances there at Taylorfrogne dot com. On behalf of Robert Royal,
Father Gerald Murray, we will convene again. I'm Raimon, a
royal from Rome, Chile. We'll see you next time. Arroyo
Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and is
available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Habemos Popham. We have a Pope Leo the fourteenth. Now
the media are telling you he's an American, he's a
White Sox fan. But we have the full portrait of
the new Pope and what it means to the church
on this edition of The Conclave Crew. Welcome to this
(00:22):
Royal Grande series, The Conclave Crew Vatican Edition, Episode six.
This episode is brought to you by our friends at
Taylor for Gone Capital, Management, Faith, family and Finances. Visit
them at Taylorfregan dot com, as well as Floriani Revitalizing
Sacred music at Floriani dot org. Who is the new
(00:43):
Pope Leo the fourteenth. Let's convene the crew, Father Gerald
Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York, and
Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing dot org. Gents,
thanks for being here. I'm Raymond Arroyo. Go subscribe to
the Royal Grande Podcast on iHeart Apples, Spotify or on
you Tube at the Arroyo Grande show page and like
this episode. Pope Leo the fourteenth, Robert Privos was the
(01:07):
dark horse candidate in this conflict. We even discussed him
in earlier episodes, including yesterday, Robert, you called him out,
you mentioned him.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Actually, we were in.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
That discussion some online. We're giving him credit for that.
So here I'm tipping my hat to you, Robert. He's
a sixty nine year old Chicago native an Augustinian priest.
He spent most of his life as a missionary bishop
in Peru. Then he was tapped by Pope Francis to
run the Vatican office that selects and appoints bishops three
years ago. Two years ago, he was made a cardinal.
(01:39):
His appearance was greeted with cheers in Saint Peter's Square.
Chance let's start with the name. I have to tell you,
I was standing in the square. The Italians were not.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Too happy with this selection.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
The Americans were jubilant. The Italians were a little less.
So let's start with the name from Leo the Great.
There have been thirteen popes with that name, Leo. Why
do you think he chose it, Father Jerry.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I think he's signaling that he wants to continue with
the teaching of Pope Leo the thirteenth, who is the
father of Catholic social teaching in the modern era, and
precisely because Leo the thirteenth was a great defender of
the working man, of the rights of workers to organize,
to form unions. But we also have to remember that
(02:34):
he also condemned socialism, and he defended the right to
private property, which in reality is also part of Catholic
social teaching, despite what some social justice warriors occasionally claim.
So I think this is a very important signal that
he is very interested in the social teaching of the Church,
maintaining a presence in the we could say the public
(02:55):
square as regards economic life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Bob further reflections on that that choice of Leo I
was surprised.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Actually another Leo I.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Was too, I must say, and look, Benedict the sixteenth
chose to follow Benedict the fifteenth, who was early in
the twentieth century and helped to build up a sense
of peace at a time of war. I get the
impression that Leo the fourteenth wants to reach back, as
father was saying, to that foundation of modern Catholic social
(03:29):
thought in Leo the thirteenth. In my book A Deeper Vision,
which is about the modern Catholic intellectual tradition, I have
a great, an intricate and careful analysis of what Leo did.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And one of the things that.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Leo did was he also created the resurgence of studies
of same time as aquirements, and he linked the two
so much so that my friend Russell Hittinger, who's an
expert on natural law and modern Catholic social thought, has
pointed out that Leo never talked about social thought without
mentioning Thomas. Now, I don't know that Leo the fourteenth
(04:02):
has exactly got that in mind, but I would hope
that he would not just accept the framework of modern
politics and economics, but would actually be reaching deeply into
our Catholic tradition.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Of thinking about society.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And bring something new and dynamic and creative to a
circumstance that is very, very troubling in many ways.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Father, What did you make of the mozetta that he
was wearing that red cape that is traditional for the
pope to wear. I mean, we did not see that
from Pope Francis. I mean, though he is considered Leo
the fourteenth is considered to be in the vein of
Pope Francis, and we'll get altered into that in a moment,
But contrast that image with that of Pope Francis the
first time we saw him.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yes, Leo made the conscious choice to observe the traditional
practice that popes come out. They're wearing the white cassi
for the first time, but then they're wearing the mozetta,
which is red, which is the symbol of a bishop.
They're wearing the pope wears then the red stole symbol
and anything martyrdom. And then there are two martyrs pictured
(05:07):
on that, Peter and Paul, who are the two founders
that we say of the church in Rome. And then
he of course then followed the ritual very carefully, because
there's a ritual with some prayers which go back, you know,
to the old Mass. Even those prayers they were I
was listening to them. He has, by the ways, Latin
(05:28):
is very good. He said them worst beautifully. He had
written out his comments in Italian, which probably reflects the
fact that he doesn't think spontaneously in Italian, so he
wanted to have them written. But they were good remarks,
so I was impressed. He was sending a signal of
continuity with previous posts. Pope Francis, basically we learned from
(05:50):
sources that he viewed that as too much of a spectacle,
and he didn't want to participate in it. But in
a way you could say that Pope Leo was subsuming
his personality right into the office and was stepping away
from making How can we say statements that indicate personal preferences?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
He did say in his first address, and I remember,
you know, I couldn't make it all out, because as
we've been commenting it, it was very hard to hear
in Saint Peter Square or above it. He did say,
we need to be a sonotyl church and reach out
in dialogue and encounter. What does that mean, Robert Royle?
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Well, look, it can mean any number of things, because,
as we've said over and over against cinidality itself is
kind of an empty sack that could be either filled
or not filled, depending on who the pope happens to be. Yeah,
he really did emphasize the continuity with Francis quite a bit.
But his father rightly says, not only in the way
that he vested himself or was vested for the event yesterday,
(06:51):
but the way he carries himself. He conveys, I've spoken
to a number of people back home in America as
well as here in Rome and the way he conducts
himself is as a serious man. I'm mature man who's
careful about what he says and brings a kind of
I think he brings back a little bit of the
majesty already of what the Pope is like, even though
(07:12):
he's an American and we're not supposed to have, you know,
sort of of that kind of mentality in us. It'll
be interesting to see where that goes, because you can
be you can be in continuity with the previous pope
and yet at the same time practice a certain innovation.
And the very fact that he chose that name that
jumped back a century and more to the name of Leo.
(07:33):
It'll be interesting to see where he goes.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And I don't think we can predict. Father.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I thought of you when I heard that we were
standing on the balcony together. You were doing a hit
and I was right there, and I thought, my gosh,
how much time have we spent trying to determine what
the term citidelity means? And here's the Pope saying we
need a sonotyl church. I've been waiting for this. What
is your take on that? And what do you think
he intends?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Well? I think he's signaling to the cardinals and others,
particularly the cardinals who voted for him, that he is
going to not stop this Sonadyl process that Poe Francis began,
because it's quite clear those who criticized the Sonadyl path
were hoping to elect a pope who would put an
end to it. This certainly was my hope, because cinidality
(08:20):
is a vague concept, and it really is a change
from what it originally meant. Cinnidale is based on the
word sind sined in the modern sense, was created by
Paul the six after a Vatican two to have a
forum in which bishops throughout the world would meet periodically
to advise the pope on the needs of the church
in the modern world. Pope Francis turned it into a
(08:42):
meeting of laity, priests, deacons, nuns, and bishops and gave
everybody an equal vote. And this was indicative. It's kind
of like it was a stage post or a way
station on the way to what they're going to have
in twenty twenty eight, which is the ecclesial Assembly in
which bishops will not be the majority in Rome. And
I wrote a column at the Catholic thing, tearing into
(09:05):
it which it deserves to be. We are not a
church in which the hierarchy is an appendage. It's a
hierarchical church with synidal experiences. It's not a synidel church
with hierarchical appendages. That's what I'm very much afraid of.
So it's not clear what Leo means by cynidal church.
(09:26):
But if it means the ecclesial Assembly in twenty twenty eight,
well get ready because there's going to be a lot
of opposition based on the fact that this is completely
at odds with the hierarchical nature of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, it's also at odds with the founding of the church.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
The Lord didn't bring all the disciples and everybody following
him through Galley and say, hey, guys, you all of
the power to loose and bind. Whatever you bind on
earth is bond in Heaven, and loosed on earth is
loosed in earth. No, he gave that only to Peter
and then to the apostles. It's a very limited group.
So it does kind of corrupt the vision of church
(10:03):
governance when you start bringing atheists in and non believers
in and everybody and their dog in and then you
and only a select group of cardinals who.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Agree with you. That's a problem, Bob, I'll give you
the last word on this.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Yeah, I think that the next stage to look toward
because for others, right the twenty twenty eight is if
that's going to continue on the way it was originally planned,
that's going to be a big problem.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Which we know that the grove from the Jameli clinic
from his really his hospital bed.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
But we know that in June, those ten study groups
that were established at the end of the last Senate
in October, that basically took the hot button issues off
the table. Women, deacons, you know, all that sort of stuff.
Their reports are doing June. So presumably those committees have
(10:52):
been working on this all this time in spite of
the fact that Francis was ill. They're supposed to deliver
reports in June. If they do that and they are
submitted to Pope Leo, we can see how he reacts
to that, what he's going to do with him. Does
he immediately kind of publish them, or does he say, well,
you know, let me think this.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Over a bit.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
That'll be our first indication. I think our first solid
indication of what he intends to do.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Look, we always said, and I was told by cardinals,
including many of whom we had meetings and dinners and
encounters with over the last ten days or so, that
an American could not be named Pope. America is already
powerful enough. You don't need an American pope. Yet, Pope
Leo is the first American in history. Why do you
(11:38):
think they elected him, Father, I'm told in part because
of the financial straits of the Vatican, a two billion
dollar deficit, four hundred million dollars in unpaid pensions.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Father, Why an American?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Well, I think that's one of the two important reasons. Well,
there are number reason but I'll give two that I
think are important. One is precisely this. They understand that
someone coming what we call the Anglo sphere, in other words,
the Anglo Saxon world English speaking world, that financial competence
and rigor are normal in the operations of the economies
(12:12):
of England, Australia, Canada and the United States. And therefore
there's hope that he will bring that kind of vision
to the reform here. Because we're talking two billion dollar
pension hold, we're talking major operating deficits every year. We're
talking mismanagement of assets. So hopefully Pope Leo will bring
(12:36):
in some very serious and powerful minds and voices to
say no, we're going to top to bottom renewal. Secondly,
he really is a Latin American in experience because his
priesthood has lived in Peru at the beginning and then
at the end when he was a bishop in Chiclio.
His Spanish is perfect, so he is by experience he's
(12:57):
really a Latin American, but he's also in North America,
and so he's both Americans. I think that was attracted.
You know. Other reasons of court has to do with
the fact that he was appointed to this important position
at the Dicastra of bitious Bipope France hasn't made a
cardinal by him, So the continuity with Pope Francis is
assumed by those who voted for him, because they would
(13:17):
say he wouldn't be here to be elected pope if
it weren't for Pope Francis. Those are some of the
things I think are going on.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Bob, how do you think this will impact having an
American pope Pope Leo?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
How will that.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Impact his relationship with America, which we have to say
has been tense since Trump came to town.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah. Look, I hear some people saying, and this is
part of that over speculation that takes place at a
moment like this. I hear some people saying that the
Cardinals chose him to confront Trump. I think this is
utter nonsense, because what they're primarily concerned about are some
of the issues we just mentioned that are really pressing
(13:56):
on the church at this moment. In fact, it might
actually help that he knows the United States pretty well.
I was a little bit disappointed that he didn't use
any English during his initial address last evening, because look,
he is, Yes, he is very much a Latin American.
Now he's very much a Roman. He's spent a number
of years now in Rome. But darn it, you know
(14:18):
you are who you are. I mean, he started on
the South side of Chicago. I think you ought to
be proud of that. And it's you know, we are
all sensitive to the cultural issues like centidality, homosexuality, you know, women, priests,
all that.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
But I think he's shown himself to be a safe
pair of hands. And as I said earlier, he's impressed
a number of people. He's even impressed me. I mean,
I'm just seeing him on TV, but he's he the
emotion that he showed last night and the kind of
maturity that he seems to radiate. I think if you
were looking around and saying, look, we need to clean
house here in Rome and calm down a bit and
(14:55):
take some of those practical steps that we know we
need to take, but we don't seem to have been
able to do. You could You could be worse. And
on top of it, he knows a lot of these
bishops who have been appointed because he was the headman
in that that office. So there are a number of
things that come together that could be helpful. He probably
isn't going to look that American to most Americans back
in North.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
America, but he is an American.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Yeah, And I want rub it in that that I
won't put rub it in that I projected yesterday that
it's not impossible.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Well, well we have the video evidence. Unfortunately, or I
would deprive you of that, but I can't. And look,
in his first Mass at the Assistine Chapel, the Pope
used the crozure of Poe Benedict, so so it's being
reported others say that that Crozier is actually Paul the six.
I don't know who's right here, but does that have
any meaning?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Father?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yes? And he also began the sermon in English. He
did off the coup remarks, and he could. I think
somebody told them, you know, the Americans are waiting for
you to talk in English at the balcony, which he
didn't do.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I mean he's stressing continuity, and uh, it's with not
just Francis, but Pope Benedict and even John Paul. He
had quoted John Paul. And let's just say this. The
sermon was a very serious sermon in which he talked
about practical atheism, talked about challenges in the modern world
(16:16):
that the Church faces. He talked about the necessity of
preaching the Gospel to the world christo centric, we would say,
centered on Christ. So I was impressed with the sermon,
and I think the cardinals listening were too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Look, anytime you mentioned ignacious of Antioch and giving yourself,
you know, for the faith, that's pretty good stuff. I
want to give the audience a little taste. This is
the opening of his homily, which he pronounced in English.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Watch begin with a word in English and the rest
is in Italian. But I want to repeat the words
from the response Orial Psalm. I will sing a new
song to the Lord because he has done marvels, and indeed,
not just with me, but with all of us, my
(17:01):
brother cardinals, as we celebrate this morning, I invite you
to recognize the marvels that the Lord has done, the
blessings that the Lord continues to pour out upon all
of us through the ministry of Peter. You have called
me to carry that cross and to be blessed with
(17:23):
that mission. And I know I can rely on each
and every one of you to walk with me as
we continue as a church, as a community of friends
of Jesus, as believers, to announce the good News, to
announce the Gospel.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Bob, what do you make of that?
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Well, look, it's nice.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
And we had a pope.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Someone priest pointed out to me a little while ago
that Pope Francis was really the only modern pope in
the twentieth century and on who didn't speak English, and
that doubtless tilted his understanding of the world somewhat.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And I think.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
We have to expect that Pope Leo is also because
he's largely now a Latin American and his mentality is
going to be absorbed somewhat into that view. But if
he's very serious about presenting the Gospel to the world,
and he's serious about how the church is going to
form the world at this moment of transition that we
seem to be in a variety of ways, we're going
(18:26):
to have to bring in some new energies. And I
think some of those energies are going to have to
come from English speaking sources, because we're the place where
the modern world has actually succeeded, at least economically, you know,
more or less politically. We have all kinds of crises
in the English speaking world. But for him to step
out with that, I think is going to expand the
mentality a little bit. Because what language you use makes
(18:49):
a difference.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Well, and our contry of Father Murray said yesterday on
the podcast that this should be the basic and foundational
language used at the that and that it should be English.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Maybe he's listening to the podcast, Father.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Well, in the global world, you want to imitate the
UN start using English. I mean, yeah, it's uh, oh,
I've said I've thought this for a long time. English
is the language. I mean, airplane pilots have to know English,
and it's a practicality that things get done easily when
people can understand each other. So yeah, that would be
a basics that battalion is this minor language in the
(19:28):
old or a world picture. It's important because it's the
language of the Holy See.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
We had a few comments.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Some were saying, oh, Father Murray is saying we should
replace the Latin with English. No, no, no, he's saying
the language used to converse in Vatican offices and in
the Vatican City state right now, it's Italian, it's not Latin.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah no, And let me note this. He's a canon lawyer,
the new Poe, and I'm a canon lawyer, so I
like that. But I like it for other reasons. But
you know, one of which is the laws written in Latin,
because that is a whole history up to this point.
And then with all the different translations, good to have
a reference point. So kind of Lord should stay in Latin.
But yeah, I mean office memos in English would be
(20:06):
very practical.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Father Pope Leo has asked all the courial heads. That
means all the men who run and women in some
cases these various dicastries in the Vatican, the Vatican offices,
he's asked them to stay in their positions for the
time being, to keep their respective jobs until further Notice.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
What does that tell you?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, that's a standard practice when the new pope comes in,
and it's a wise practice because you know, when the
office is reopen after this, you know, momentous time of
the pope's death and the burial and now the election
new pope. You know, there's a lot of work that
has to be done, and if the leader is not
there at each of these departments, it becomes a little
bit difficult the real but the tell, as they would say,
(20:49):
is going to be who does he replace and who
does he keep in place? Because you know, the heads
of these dicasteries were very much disciples of Pope Francis
and often opponents of implementing radical ideas at an accelerated pace.
Even so, we'll get a read on Pope frances on
(21:10):
Pope Leo's continuity program by seeing who's laughed and who's replaced.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Bob Poblio spent a lot of time in Peru. How
does that experience that missionary experience shape this pontificate. I mean,
you heard it in his opening comment when he was
on the Logia the other day, basically that the pastors
should smell of the sheep and they have to walk
with the people.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, Peru has been a very troubled place. Most English
speakers in North America don't know much about Peru, but
Peru went through a terrible period toward the end of
the twentieth century with a movement called Sindero Luminoso, which
was a Marxist import from China. It's just ripped up
the whole society. They began to reform, and they've in
(21:53):
recent decades too, they've had a number of political ups
and downs, let's put it that way. So he's confronted
in check Clio's a relatively small diocese. I have a
personal connection with it because a priest that I grew
up with in my little parish in Connecticut was sent
his missionary down there. He was supposed to be there
for a few years, and he loved it, and he
(22:14):
just stayed the whole time. And you know, we all
kind of fell close to it and where I grew up.
But look, he's seen that I think he was the
vice president of the bishop's conference there, and so he's
seen the turmoil of Latin America. And in a way,
that political turmoil maybe is something that he's thinking about
when he takes the name Leo the fourteenth. But I
(22:37):
would also say that there is an evangelizing turmoil. That
we know that the Pentecostals and the other sort of
evangelical groups are growing by leaps and bounds in these places,
and so you can lament that that's happening, but you
have to do something. And in many of the places
in Latin America that I'm familiar with, the reason why
(22:59):
people leave the churches precisely because they want to get
away from politics. The church is too politicized, either for
liberation theology or you know, something or other. That's going
to be a tough needle for him to thread, and
it'll be interesting to keep an eye on what he
does with that.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Well, that's a great intro to what we talked about
the other day, which is really the challenges facing the
church right now in the post Francis era, if you will,
and then now in the beginning of the Leo era.
So I want to talk about how well Pope Leo
might be disposed or perhaps not to embrace some of
these challenges.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
In an earlier episode, we.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Talked about the collapse of due process father in the
church canonical norms under Pope Francis. They were just shattered,
as you mentioned a moment ago, Robert Privos. Now Pope
Leo is a canon lawyer, tell me restate some of
the problems that in your mind need addressing, and how
he may approach these canonical issues and how culpable he
(23:56):
may be in a way that Pope Francis perhaps was not.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Well since yea, as a canon lawyer, he knows the rules.
He knows why the rules are put in place. In
other words, they're not arbitrary things invented just to keep
the powerful powerful. Were The canon law is designed to
guarantee respect for the rights of everyone in the church,
so the hierarchs have to follow procedures when they are
questions regarding people subject to them. There are a lot
(24:22):
of issues remaining that need to be looked at. We
have sex abuse enforcement, I mean right now we have
bishops and Ketta who was announced to be under a
canonical process over three or four years ago. I can't
remember how long, but we've never heard another word about
So that process has to be brought to completion because
guess what. This man was convicted in the civil court
(24:44):
in Argentine of confusing seminarians. There's no reason why this man,
if guilty, found guilty and countercross should not be removed
from the priest. Same with Father Rupnik, Marco Rupnik. He
was thrown out of the Jesuits because he wouldn't cooperate
with them and their investigation of sexual abuse of nuns
who were under his spiritual care. So sex abuse is
(25:06):
going to be something very important to look at. Similarly,
we have to look at how investigations are done with
religious orders because Pope Francis had a hostility and this
is noted this I'm not inventing this To more traditional
and charismatic type groups in the church, some of them
had problems. There's no doubt, you know. The Soda Litzio
(25:27):
in Peru was the founder of it was guilty of
sex abuse and others in the group participated, but Pope
Francis abolished the group and a lot of good members
were felt that there was not enough due process. The
Institute of the Incarnate Word is currently under investigation now.
Its founder in Argentina was also found guilty of sexual
(25:48):
abuse of miners or seminarians. But that group is worldwide.
In fact, Pope always called the parish in Gaza, you know,
every night and the pastor there is a member of that.
So there are a lot of groups in France have
similar investigations going on. We never heard the end about
the Franciscans of the Immaculate in Italy and elsewhere. They
(26:10):
were putting under a moderator and no resolutions. So they're
going to be those canonical investigations that need to be completed.
Opus Stay they change the law regarding personal prelators. It's
a complicated canonical thing. Won't go into but you know,
Opus Stay was given the opportunity to submit their own
(26:31):
revised statutes, and they were at a meeting when the
Pope died in which they were going to come up
with their final proposals, so they suspended the statute proposal.
New Pope's going to take that up. So those are
some of the things. These are canonical issues and the
reason they're important is everybody else is watching and if
they feel that if these groups feel they were treated unfairly,
(26:53):
and everyone else is going to be suspicious if fairness
is evident. That's how you have social harmony in the church.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, let's get into some of the other areas that
Pope will be contending with. The Pope Leo when he
was Cardinal Robert Privos is being quoted in the media
as saying this in a twenty twenty twelve addressed Catholic
pastors who preach against legalization of abortion or the redefinition
of marriage are portrayed as being ideologically driven, severe and uncaring.
(27:25):
He went on to call out the media for depicting
the quote homosexual lifestyle and same sex partners with their
adopted children as a challenge your thoughts, Bob, on these
quotes and the upsegment that some gay groups are communicating today,
they say, wait, this is a departure from Pope Francis.
He was welcoming us and these comments are just abrasive
(27:50):
and hostile.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Well, I'm glad to hear that. I mean, that's actually
though thirteen years ago, and the question is right now.
Pope France has said a lot of strong things about
pro life, about protecting life in the woman, protecting life
at the end of natural life, but he didn't do much,
and I would like to see some more action and
(28:13):
even drum beating. France has actually discouraged people from doing
from being obsessed and focused on the pro life issues
and the gay issues, and I think that that was
to his detriment because he just kind of in advance
and announced, Yeah, we're going to say this, but we're
not going to do anything as far as the gay
thing goes. In addition to what Father was just saying
about the high handedness that France has often showed towards
(28:38):
these other groups, I would hope that in addition to
following the law, that Leo would look deeply into why
it is that it's been so difficult to move the
needle within the church on homosexuality. And clearly there is
some kind of protective network that exists. It was also
(28:59):
personal when it came aimed to Francis with the cases
of Unchetta, and it appears also with Reupnik to some degree.
But we know that there's some kind of protective network
here that needs to be rooted out. It simply can't
go on that at a time when as we're learning
that the young priests were coming into the church in
the United States and elsewhere are deeply, deeply satisfied being heterosexual.
(29:23):
Homosexuals pretending not to go into the seminary that the
church in terms of its general culture has kind of turned.
There can't any longer be this network that has protected
the Mcharics and the Unchettas and on and on and on,
And he's going to have to look very carefully into this.
John Paul wasn't able to do it, and we know
he would like to have done it. Benedict was not
(29:46):
able to do it, and we know he would like
to have done it. Francis talked about it, he issued
some documents, but was still not very far from where
we were when he became Hopes. So this is a
burning issue life and redefining sexuality in the family in
a way that makes sense and stands strong against the
activism of these homosexual groups.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Father, I want you to invite you into this. I
know you're probably champion of a bit.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Go ahead. Yeah. No, Bob's got a very good point.
And this goes back to what member Bishop Morlino, who
made a speech to the US bishops and says, you know,
we have to confront the fact that there's a homosexual
problem in the clergy and this cannot be tolerated. So
what it basically means is the Vatican has to make
it clear priests who are unchased, meaning they don't live,
(30:34):
you know, Christian teaching about sexual purity, they're unchased, they
are a blot on the priesthood. They have to reform
their lives or be removed. Because you can have a
system in which people are expected to teach a series
of propositions that the Church considers to be the truth,
and yet they reject them in their own lives. And
(30:55):
I'm sure in private tell people, you know, don't pay
attention to this stuff a problem. And then you know,
the more general issue is is it the role of
a bishop as a shepherd to protect the flock in
ways that are going to upset some people. And it
always is, you know, we're not here to please governments,
(31:16):
we're not here to please cooperations, We're not here to
please the homosexual lobby, which says it's unfair that the
Catholic Church stigmatizes what we do. Well, the answer is,
you can go where you want as a person. We
hope you'll embrace Catholicism, but don't try to subvert Catholic
teaching in the name of Christ, saying, well, Jesus was
(31:37):
never severe. What do you mean he wasn't severe. Jesus
is the author of the of the Bible, which says
that homosexual activity is an abomination, so we have to
get to that point.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
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(32:11):
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Cardinal Privos now Pope Leo was head of the dicastre
of bishops that selected and dispatched We have to just
say it. Many bishops, notably Bishop Strickland in the United
States in Tyler, Texas, Bishop Ray in France, both were removed,
(32:32):
one for saying things on social media that was overboard
about Pope Francis. One for being too orthodox and having
really thriving seminarians in the diocese. But they were too
traditional for the Vatican's taste. I read one story where
Provos ran the visitation that looked into Bishop Ray. Your
(32:53):
thoughts on what this tells us and do you think
it might restore or he might restore those bishops back
to practice?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Bob Well about Strickland, I'm doubtful, although I don't have
any insight, any insight into that that I think was
kind of a personal clash that Bishop Strickland had over
what he thought but Francis was doing, and often his
arguments were well were well taken. This question in France
(33:24):
bothers me a bit more because when someone is described
as being too Orthodox and they have too many seminarians
coming in and the diocese is flourishing, it seems to
me to be normal human reaction to look at it
and say, hey, why is this working?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Too many people want salvation, too many people want to
serve Jesus.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
What's happening?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
You know?
Speaker 4 (33:47):
People are showing up and they want to be priests. Well,
why is there there anything wrong with that? And if look,
if they're going overboard, and maybe they are, you know,
maybe there's a there's a kind of a spirit of
rebellion that can even take place.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
In these traditional plays.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Well, you don't abolish it, though. What you try to
do is you try to work with him. And we
hear a lot that Cardinal Provost was a listener, that
he would listen and proceed in a kind of a
calm and mature way to make decisions. So I'm a
little worried about that, of course, because it just seems
to me inexplicable. It could be that somebody put pressure
(34:23):
on him. Certainly in the case of the appointment of
McElroy in Washington, d C. We have to think that
that was the hand of the Pope specifically reaching in
there and saying I want him moving from San Diego
to Washington, d C. So some of these decisions may
not be entirely his, but he's going to have to
(34:43):
take on the responsibilities. Now, if we don't want a
church that is just going to continue to collapse, and
you know, it'll have a large number of faithful people,
but it'll continue to collapse. Its influence will continue to collapse.
The evangelization, the carrying of the message of Jesus to
the world begins to be weaker and weaker. If we
(35:04):
don't want that, then we need to take some new directions,
and it's not the ones that we've had the past
twelve years. There was no Francis effect.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Father, Do you want to add anything there quickly?
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Well? So, yes. I think it's incumbent on the pope
restore or to give an assignment to bishops who are
removed in ways I consider unjust. Bishop Daniel Fernandez and
Puerto Rico has no assignment. He should be made a
bishop of a diaces or an auxiliary bishop, same with
Strickland and Bishop Ray. He was mistreated and he should
(35:35):
also be given an assignment because the Pope basically removed
them in their diaces as a form of punishment, but
he didn't suspend them, so they still fully function as
priests and mass and confession. This is an anomalous situation.
It shouldn't happen.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
We talked about the sex abuse crisis a little earlier
and how Pope France has shielded friends and colleagues at
times from justice, ignoring the Christ of victims. It has
to be said Pope Leo has his own record in
Peru and Chicago that has gotten some coverage. Since yesterday,
a number of girls in Peru claimed a priest abuse them,
(36:11):
they went to privos and they claim no investigation was
ever opened.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
What will Pope Leo's approach be.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Do you think to restore confidence and transparency in the church?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
What is required now? Father?
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Briefly, well, this case in Peru I read from the
point of view of the complaining people, meaning the people
feel offended by what Cardinal Prevos how we handled the matter.
I think it would be good if we got an
explanation of that. The Peruvian bishops issued a statement a
while ago saying that he did everything right. The candid
(36:45):
lawyer for the three girls who say they're abused by
two priests say he didn't, So I think we need
enlightenment on that. There's also the case in Chicago, whereas
head of the Augustinian Order, he assigned a priest to
live in a been accused by multiple accusations and sexual
abuse of minus. He was put into a rectory which
(37:06):
was located in close proximity to a Catholic grammar school,
and that this was in fact something that Cardinal Supek
had apologized for previously doing a similar assignment. So those
things should be dealt with, and you know, the Pope
if he says, you know, I regret decisions I made,
(37:26):
and I apologize to the victory. It'll be over. I mean,
that's just the way you clear things up.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Well, as you said the other day, just let a
due process trial and investigation proceed and then show no
favoritism to anyone. Everyone is under the same law. That
would restore I think confidence if we just did that
over and under before we go.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Willy live in the Apostolic.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Palace, Bob, Yes, yes, yes, I think that what we
saw by the way he presented himself and whatnot. And
remember Francis didn't go to Santa Marta because it is
it's uncomfortable or it's humble. He just didn't want to
be isolated. And I think it's a much better place
for the Pope to be and he probably understands that
(38:11):
as well.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Yeah, father agreed.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, and let's face it, it's more humble dwellings than
the Santa Marta.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I've been to both.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I can tell you ones like the Hilton. The other
is like a little hostel. The Apostolic Palace is not
as the hallways are grand, but the room it's a
tiny room.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, I mean, it's not much and.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
It's drafty in the winter, one last caveat. This is
not a president or Prime minister. This is the two
hundred and sixty seventh successor of Saint Peter the Apostle,
the Prince of the Apostles.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
And there is grace that it comes with that office, and.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
That's getting lost in a lot of these conversations I'm
seeing in the media. It has power to not only
remake the church, but the man.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Who holds that office. We will watch the.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Rise of Pope Leo the fourteenth together and pray that
God guides him and shapes him in these days to come.
The Royal Grande Conclave Crew Vatican edition concludes, But we
I think we're going to keep the posse going. Yes, guys, Yeah,
let's let's saddle saddle them up. Subscribe to the Royal
(39:14):
Grande Show on YouTube or the Royal Grande Podcast wherever
you get yours.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
And this series been brought to you by our.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Friends at Taylor for Gone Capital, Management, Faith, Family and
Finances there at Taylorfrogne dot com. On behalf of Robert Royal,
Father Gerald Murray, we will convene again. I'm Raimon, a
royal from Rome, Chile. We'll see you next time. Arroyo
Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and is
available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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