May 7, 2025 • 38 mins
As the conclave begins, The Conclave Crew returns from Rome with deep insight into the pivotal question: What kind of pope does the world — and the Church — need right now?
Raymond Arroyo, Fr. Gerald Murray, and Robert Royal break down the qualities cardinals are seeking in the next pontiff. From the need for doctrinal clarity and the restoration of canon law, to financial stewardship and the healing of deep divisions, the team explores the urgent challenges the new pope must face. They also discuss leading candidates, including canon law experts, diplomatic figures, and surprise compromise picks, while Vatican journalist Ed Pentin joins with exclusive analysis straight from the General Congregations.
This candid, insider look reveals how the next pope could set the tone for the Church’s future — whether by reaffirming tradition, engaging the modern world, or doing both.
Brought to you by Taylor Frigon Capital Management… Faith, Family and Finances - taylorfrigon.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What kind of pope does the world need. We'll tell
you what we've heard from the cardinals here in Rome
and over the last twelve years, what we've observed. The
Conclave Crew has a sketch of the next pope coming up.
Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The Conclave Crew, Vatican Edition,
(00:21):
Episode four. This episode is brought to you by our
friends at Taylor Fragone Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances.
Visit them at taylorfragone dot com. Let's convene the crew.
Father Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York,
Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing dot org,
and I'm Raymond Arroyo. Later in the show, we'll be
(00:42):
joined by Vatican expert Ed Penton. Go subscribe to the
Arroyo Grande podcast now on iHeart, Apples, Spotify where you
get your podcasts, and on YouTube at a Royo Grande
Show and like this episode, be kind like it. The
cardinals met in the Pollinge Chapel earlier today for a
group prayer. Then all one hundred and thirty three of
(01:05):
them posessed into the Sistine Chapel, which will be the
site of the conclave, they swore an oath, and then
Archbishop Diego Raveri yelled in Latin everyone out, sealing them away.
As this college of cardinals has been sealed away to
elect a pope since twelve seventy four. I want to
talk about the shape of who that pope might be.
(01:28):
But first the historic precedent. People forget. This is the
election of Saint Peter's successor, the Apostle, the first Apostle
his stand in if you will. Cardinal Ray admonished these
men this morning as they all met for Mass in
Saint Peter's Basilica. He urged them to turn their attention
to Jesus the Judge, to inspire them to select the
(01:52):
right man to give the keys of heaven. What does
that mean, Father Murray? And why does Peter remain real
Evan and the pope all these years later, two thousand
years after the first Pope Saint Peter.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
The key symbol as actually goes back to the Old Testament.
So the keeper of the keys was sort of the
vice king in this sense. You know, the king gave
his power to the keyholder to let in and out
of the palace, and Jesus gave the power of the
keys to Saint Peter. He is the chief of the apostles.
(02:28):
He's the rock upon which Christ built the Church. So
he has the power of Christ to bind and to loose.
So that basically symbolizes that the Church carries out, through
Saint Peter, a divine function of opening the doors of
Heaven through the administration of the sacraments and the preaching
of the Gospel. So it's a very symbolic thing. That's
(02:49):
why the keys are actually one of the main symbols
you'll see engraved all around Rome and the buildings and
different places where the Holy Father's activities are read out.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, Bob, do you want to emphasize anything there that
this is this is really an apostolic election. It's not
a political fight. It's not a political and regional war about,
you know, who should be in charge of the Catholic Church.
It is a spiritual charge that goes deep, deep into
the history and certainly to the roots of history of Christianity.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, and it isn't even in a way although you
have to take into account the personality of the person
who is about to be elected. I mean, obviously popes
like every human being have personality traits, but this is
not a matter of persons. This is not a respector
of persons. This is an office that has to be
engaged with personally. We talked about yesterday that the Pope
(03:43):
the person, does not become Pope merely by receiving the
proper number of votes, but must also accept it and
take on that responsibility. And I think some of the
commentary I've seen this past week really tries to emphasize
that there were obviously juge Bergolio was a very personable man,
but he relatively neglected the office of Peter. And I
(04:05):
think that the Pope's the cardinals who are electing the
next pope maybe thinking precisely about why it is that
the petrine office ought to maybe be given a little
bit more emphasis than it has recently.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Bob and Father, you saw this new CBS poll, like
anybody cares, but I have to run it down because
it's getting such coverage. Forty two percent of those polls
said they claim to be Catholics. The next Pope should
continue the teachings of Pope. France's thirty seven percent want
more conservative teachings, twenty one percent want more progressive teachings, Bob,
(04:38):
My first question, who are these alleged Catholics?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well, as we know, you know, we've been around the
block on this many times. One of the problems with
doing polls like this is do they talk to Catholics
who go to Mass, who go to confession, who takes
seriously what the church teaches. Once you dig into that,
you get a very much different picture of what Catholics
want and what they don't want. I would tend to
think that the people who are in favor of a
(05:06):
change or in favor of a greater emphasis on what
Francis did, pay more attention to what goes on in room.
But my sense is that by and large most Catholics don't.
They get a favorable or unfavorable view of who the
pope is, and they mostly would respond to a poll
like that. I'm encouraged that thirty seven percent saying that
they would like to have a bit of a change father.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
This poll alleges it again, it alleges that Catholics want
the church to change its position on birth control. Seventy
nine percent want that, fifty seven percent want married priests,
fifty six percent want female priests. My answer would be
there are many communions where these things are already offered.
But explain why the church isn't governed by polls.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, the church is based on the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus,
before he ascended in heaven, commissioned the Twelve Apostles to
propagate the religion of Christianity christ teaching, and he established
as a hierarchical church, meaning that it had appointed leaders
(06:13):
who are shepherds. So we have bishops, priests, and deacons.
And then from the bishops, the Bishop of Rome is
the vicar of Christ. He's the universal shepherd. So the
pope rules over the church in union with and working
with the bishop's priests and deacons.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But right there you have it. The church.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
The apostles didn't get together when they said Jesus is gone,
What are we going to do? Let's form an organization
to propagate his memory. If they founded that, then they
could change the bylaws anytime they had a majority at
the board meeting.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
No.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I mean this is a religion that was given by
God to the people, and specifically to the baptize the
people who followed Christ. As a result, the job of
any teacher is to accurately convey the message that they
have received. And that's really why the printificate of Pope
Francis was so controversial, because he said and did things
(07:07):
that none of his predecessor had ever done, and then
when questioned about it, he'd never really offered a robust justification.
He simply said, we're not changing anything. We're just basically
putting a new way of being a Christian in place,
and that a lot of people find, including me, very
inadequate and needing to be revised.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I mean, Bob, there are a lot of Catholics who
have that understanding that well, if we just get enough
of us, well, this is what the whole Sonatal way
is about. I mean, the Senate is really let's pack
the invitees that we like who agree with us ideologically,
and then we can change the bylaws, we can shift
the doctrine. And you were right that CBS does concede.
If you go down to the bottom of the article
in this poll they did, they can see that a
(07:50):
smaller group of those Catholics who attend Mass a few
times a month think the church is in touch with
the needs of the people. The non church attendees believe
it's out of touch, So I'll give you last word
on this.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, yeah, you know, in America in particular, a lot
of people are Catholic in name and Protestant in belief,
because we believe that Christ did us a great favor,
a great grace, a great mercy in leaving us an
institution that helps us to understand what he taught and
has a continuity going back to his closest collaborators as
(08:23):
colleagues among the apostles. By contrast, Protestants kind of think
it's solo scriptura, sola vide, that they make it up
on their own. Well, if you think about this for
a second, this really means that there is no firm teaching,
that there is no authority that tells.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
You what to do.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I mean, I read a book once and when I
just looked into the fifteenth century, sixteenth century when the
Protestant Reformation started, within just a few decades, there were
two hundred and fifty or more different theories of what
the Eucharist was. So, look, it's a great thing to
have a church that we can rely on. There can
still be debates in the church about how exactly we
(09:02):
receive things at this moment in history, but the basics
of the faith have been laid out, and if we
don't have a church, then probably we don't really have Christianity.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
M okay, let's talk about the next pope. Qualities you
believe he must have informed by what you're hearing as
well as what we've seen over the last couple of decades,
really thirty years covering a series of pontificates draw sketch
for us. First up doctrine. There seems to be a
lot of doctrinal confusion out there in the wake of
(09:32):
the Francis pontificate. Cardinal after cardinal has mentioned, and I'll
quote from my notes, chaos, rampant confusion, doctrinal incoherency. Father,
Why are they saying that? And what must the next
Pope do?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
They're saying that because Pope Francis regrettably said things that
contradicted previous church teaching. For instance, he said, divorced and
remarried people who who do not have an omen are
entitled to receive communion in particular cases, but who decides
which other particular cases?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So that was never taught.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Adultery is a mortal sin, and those who are in
an adulterous relationship are objectively in a serious sin, so
they should not be allowed to receive community. That's what
it was taught by John Paul, the second in Benedict.
Pope Francis regrettably said that homosexual couples and I put
note exactly what was in the document, homosexual couples can
be blessed by the priest. Well, we never said that
(10:33):
anybody can be blessed, and we don't ask people before
we bless them whether what their particular state in life is.
But when few people come together and say we're in
a romantic and sexual relationship and we're in the same
sex and we want to be blessed, her says, no,
that's not blessible because that kind of relationship is immoral.
Similarly to Pope said that the death penalty is a
(10:55):
violation of human rights. It's an unjust act of vengeance.
The church is never taught that is taught that it's
moral and cases of grave crime. And then lastly, the
Pope said that all religions are paths to God. He
said that when he was in Indonesia, and that the
Church has never taught we say that men are searching
on different paths to arrive at God, but that God
(11:16):
has given us only one path, his son Jesus Christ,
who said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Those are just four examples of things that he said
which are very unsettling because the Church has never said
those things. So I think the next pope for me
prime quality required doctrinal orthodoxy and anability to explain and
defend and promote the teaching of the church.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Bob, do you want to amplify anything there at anything there?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah, just one point I've been reading lately about the
nature of what's called managerialism. It's the theory of how
you manage an organization, and people who practice this by
and large emphasized process over results. And so what we've
seen with the Sonatyl Church is the one And yes,
it is kind of affirmed and it is left. You know,
(12:03):
LGBT is more morally outside of Christianity, but we need
to also be close and maybe be discussing where. But
that's this kind of managerial where you don't actually have
to tell some people yes and other people know. And
a church that operates like that, even if it doesn't
explicitly contradict the Gospels, or if it doesn't explicitly say
(12:26):
that when Jesus says, no man comes to the Father
except through me, it gives the impression because the conversation
keeps going on and on and on, and the process
itself begins to tell you will you know maybe someday?
And I think that that even if you, I wouldn't
defend every word that France has put down in some
(12:47):
of these controversial places by any means. But even if
a person wanted to defend that, he would have to
admit that there is this additional sense of constantly being
on the brink of changing something, and that was deliberately cultivated.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Auble haha, father speak, if you will to what we're hearing.
We heard this repeatedly throughout the last week or so.
It seems the cardinals are very interested in restoring canon law,
the norms that were once in place. Now. This is
one of the reasons people are looking to Cardinals Airdo
and Mamberti, both esteemed canonists, who could certainly speak to
(13:24):
this concern. They think they could restore the canonical norms.
Where are we now and what should the next pope do?
Why are they so alarmed about this?
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Canon law is a set of rules that the Catholic
Church operates under. Canon law has origins going way back
to the beginning of the church. So the Catholic Church
views itself as an institution with sovereignty. In other words,
it rules with God's authority over the people. And part
of being a sovereign is you establish a set of
laws and then you enforce those laws. Because laws promote
(13:59):
so justice, they protect protection of the rights of people,
good order, all the things necessary people to flourish. Now,
Pope Francis ignored Canon law in many instances. I could
go into specifics, but it would be too boring. But
it was notorious for ignoring the law, or giving dispensations
(14:19):
or enacting things apart from the law. So one example
was he threw out some members of a religious congregation
without due process.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
They got a letter.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Saying you're no longer a member.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
They never had the You know, in.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Canon law you can throw people at religious or for
just cause, but they have a right to defense. So
you have to issue a process. We're going to investigate,
We're going to hear the evidence. We're going to present
the evidence to the accused. The accused as a right
to respond. Then the judge makes a judge in this case,
the pope's an investigator and just issued a decree. So
what we need in the Catholic Church is let's have
(14:52):
social order through the faithful observance of the rules that
are set down in advance in canon law.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Want to move on to a liberal website, publish something
called the Sins of Pope Francis, and among them were
I'm going to run through these, an authoritarian exercise of power,
a devaluation of the church heritage. How can the next
pope restore that mob and what might that man bring
to the table to restore those particular concerns.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Boy, that's an interesting list from a I'm just skimming.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Well.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Look for me, I think one of the most important
things symbolically he could do would be to bring back
the traditional Latin Mass, because in one fell swoop that
kind of says, look, we are still back in continuity
with the church. You know, as our friend Richard John
Newhouse used to say, boy, there's a lot of church
history before Vatican too. And so if you're going to
(15:49):
basic the contemporary Catholic Church solely on what's happened in
the last fifty sixty years, you're really cutting yourself off
from a very great richness. And Vatican two talked about
two things. People forget this. They talked about a jornamento,
which is an Italian word that means an updating, but
it also talked about russo small, which means going back
to the early church fathers and really deep digging into
(16:12):
the ways that they thought, that the way that they spoke,
why is it that they gave us the tradition that
we have. And so you can do both things at once.
You can engage the modern world but also be looking
more deeply back into your own tradition. For me, that
is what the play of faith and reason always does
in the modern world, and we were lacking that. I
(16:33):
think that there was an emphasis on reaching out that
was good, but there was an over.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Emphasis on that.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
And what we need to do is to restore a
balance where we say, yes, we're willing to talk with you,
we're willing to welcome you, but this is who we
are and understand in the conversation that when you talk
with the Catholic Church, we don't just make it up
from day to day. We don't just tell you what
you want to hear. We're here for the long run.
We've been here for a long time, and we tend
to be here for a long time into the future.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
What do you expect this next pope to do vis
a vis the liturgy? I mean, Bob talked about the
suppression of the old right, the old Roman right, the
trident Team, Latin Mass, and really, but there was a
diminishment of the grandeur of Catholic liturgy and all expressions
of the pope. Really, what do you think the cardinals
are looking for in the next man and who might
(17:20):
fit that built.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well, that's a very interesting question because you know, Paul
Francis had a minimalistic view of how you celebrate the libergy. Certainly,
celebrate the Mass validly and all, but you know, he
used Vatican's glorious investments, he kind of didn't use those.
There are a lot of rituals he kind of dropped,
and things he did not allow, as Bob said, the
Latin Mass, the traditional Latin Mass to be celebrated elsewhere.
(17:44):
He made a whole set of unnecessary enemies, you could say,
because people who like the Latin Mass are generally very
pro papal, but here they were thrown out of the
I mean literally thrown out of churches. You know, I've
never heard of a pastor of provision in which throwing
faithful Catholics out of their parishes was viewed as something
charitable or necessary. So I think that has.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
To be resolved.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But you know, it's kind of an area in the
life of the Church ever since the reform, after the
Second Vatican Council, there's been great upsetness and things that
are unsettled jump all the Second and Benedict tried to
remedy it. But I think this is a work that's
going to go on for another fifty to one hundred
years of trying to arrive at a modernized yet reverential
(18:27):
liturgy which may be in the vernacular but is very
very much like the traditional Latin Mass and how it's celebrated.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Bob, I want to talk for a moment about the
Wall Street Journal reports that since Pope Francis took over
twelve years ago, the budget deficit for the Vatican tripled.
The pension fund you mentioned this in one of our
earlier episodes. It has a two billion dollar liability that
it cannot fund, and four hundred million dollars was lost
in that ridiculous real estate deal in Britain. How important
(18:58):
will financial can considerations a sense of find being a
good steward of money is given and protecting that money.
Will this next pope have to be well?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It would beggar belief, at least for me to think
that the cardinals who buy and large are at least
responsible men. Would which select someone who would be unable
to deal with that, or if they wanted someone who's
sort of a spiritual figurehead we've talked about Cardinal Saraz
and not particularly an administrator, but they would have to
have some guarantees that this issue would be addressed. I mean,
(19:32):
in a sense, the abuse crisis is a moral crisis
inside the church that absolutely must be addressed, and this
financial question is a material crisis in the church that
has to be addressed. We know that there have been
reductions in Peter's pence, that Peter Spence has been used
for expenses, that there have been assets of the Vatican
(19:54):
that have been sold off I think mostly at this
point real estate assets, but it's not hard to imagine
in the very near future that they're going to have
to start dipping into some of the artwork or the
books in the Vatican Library. This is not a good situation.
It doesn't show a Catholic people that are supporting the
Vatican the way we would expect them to and then
they did in the past. So it's not just a
(20:15):
matter of identifying this, but it's also a matter of
identifying a person who we thought we were getting with
hard work Abergolia, but we didn't. Who can rectify the financial.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well father, that's the question. And look, it's a big
concern as as I look at this, we remembered twelve
years ago Jorge Bergolio was elected because they imagined our
friend George Cardinal pell imagined that Pope Francis would be
the great reformer of not only finances but the Vatican bureaucracy.
Neither of those things really panned out. So talk about
the financial part and connect it to what Bob was
(20:47):
talking about, the sex abuse crisis. How did Pope Francis
handle that and what must the next pope do to
restore order and confidence in the church.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, they're definitely going to need respect administration of what
we call the goods of the church, meaning it's assets,
it's donations, its buildings, and when we're talking about the
Holy See in the Vatican. They have a lot of
assets in a lot of places, but they're notoriously not
well managed, particularly real estate. I'll have to look at that,
(21:18):
and you're going to have to figure out how to
finance this deficit of pensions. You know, a pension is
not a gift. A pension is owed to people who
worked for you, and the employer deferred compensation in the
form of a pension, rather than giving them all the
money at the moment. So that has to be.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
That's a matter of justice.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Now, sex abuse, the Pope made some inroads with some
documents and some processes. He established a process to prosecute
bishops and other religious superiors who protected predator priests, but
the application was spotty and in some cases there was
no application, and this is a real problem. His first
(21:58):
bishop he named after he became pope, is a man
named Zanketta. He was a friend of his a priest
from Argentina, and Zanketta, as a diozin bishop, was convicted
of abusing seminarians in his diocese. The Pope's they had
to say when informed of the charges, believe Zanketta's lie
that his phone had been hacked. I gave Zanketta a
(22:19):
job in the Vatican, and then after he was convicted,
he never prosecuted him with the canon law product. It
took forever and then we were told this passed.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
You.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well, the process is ongoing, but when the pope died,
they hadn't yet to have a trial, even though it's
been going on for three or four years. So the
Zenketa case, there's a Rupni case. I won't go into that.
Sex abuse has to be treated for what it is.
It is a crime. It doesn't matter who you know
(22:49):
or what position you were occupying nature. You commit a crime,
and you're a minister of the Gospel, you need to
be punished and removed.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I hope that there was zero tolerance unless you knew
the pope, and that's a problem. So hopefully there'll be
one standard for everybody, and zero tolerance is not a
bad one, but with due process, I mean not all
these cases. These men are not always guilty, but you
have to explore them. There has to be a canonical
process and was hopefully the next pope will embrace that
and understand that. The final message of the College of
(23:18):
Cardinals gents as they came out of their general congregations
the last meeting. This got very little attention and it
could have outsized influence on how they choose this next pope.
They lamented the lack of progress promoting peace in the Ukraine,
the Middle East and other areas of the world, and
then they issued quote a heartfelt appeal to all parties
(23:40):
involved to reach as soon as possible a permanent ceasefire
and to negotiate without preconditions and further delays the peace
so deeply desired by the affected populations in the entire world. Bob,
what influence will that statement have? Very important that it
came at the end of the congregation meetings. They didn't
often issue statements like this, What influence will that have?
(24:02):
And who fits the bill to facilitate that kind of
piece and at least initiate it. The Pope can't bring peace,
but he can initiate it and certainly advocate.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
For it well. For me, Pizza Bala, the archbishop and
cardinal archbishop from Jerusalem, who has done so well in
managing that very difficult circumstance in the Middle East, in
Gaza and also in Israel, he stands out immediately it
seems to me as the candidate that might be able
(24:33):
to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Tell me what you think the next pope will look like.
I don't even name. I'm really not interested in a man,
but sketch him for me. Well.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I think the next Pope has to be a visible
man of prayer and meditation, that he is scripturally rich
in speaking about the Gospel to people. I think he
has to be a man who is confident in his role,
that he is in fact the successor of Peter and
the first representative of God on earth, and that he
(25:03):
cooperates with brother bishops, but he does so in the
role of Peter, which is to lead and to guide
them and confirm them in the faith. I think that's
the first thing. Secondly, I think the next pope has
to be someone who is a realist, meaning he understands
clearly that the financial criminal and other scandals surrounding the
Holy See are not simply subjects of lamentation. They have
(25:27):
to be things that need to be dealt with in
the way a civil government deals with the problems of
crime and associated economic chaos. So, in other word, you
have to be hard headed, so you have to do
what's required to put the house in order, and to
prosecute criminal priests, and to make sure that is quite
(25:48):
clear to people in the Catholic Church, who you know
is irrelevant. What counts as whether you faithful to the
Gospel and your duties.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
That's what counts. Look, I agree with all of that.
I also think we need a pope who will be
manly stand in the middle of the world with this
countercultural message of Jesus Christ and confront that world with
the eternal answers that matter and that still have relevance.
I think it really is important. And you know, John Paul,
(26:19):
even Francis, they both went out to the world and
declared the message. It has to be a clear, unwavering message.
And I think if that pope emerges from this conclave,
millions of people will be drawn to this faith, especially
young people. We're beginning to see the shoots of that
springtime that John Paul talked about. But boy, are there
are a lot of land mines that this next pope will
(26:42):
have to dodge and diffuse before we get there. Gentlemen,
we'll leave it there for the moment, but we're going
to do something very special tomorrow. We're going to answer
your questions all of you watching this Conclave Crew series,
drop them in the comments below, or you can send
them to Raymond at Raymondarroyo dot com Raymond at Raymond
Royo dot com and we will try to get to
as many of those as we can. I know there
(27:03):
are a lot of them. I've been seeing them all week,
so we'll get to those. Thank you. Conclave Crew. Ed
Penton Vatican Journalists is next with the major candidates who
could be popes. Stay there. Are you looking for financial
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accounts or family office accounts. Taylor for Gone Capital values
driven investing to support your faith, family, and finances. There
at Taylorfogne dot com. As a special edition I wanted
to bring in and I so regard his work as
(27:48):
just the best in the business. We're joined by Senior
correspondent of the National Catholic Register, the best reporter in
Rome and author of the College of Cardinals Report, Ed Pennon.
Ed thanks for being here. I've heard from annumber of cardinals.
How hopelessly undecided they seem to be going into this conclict.
Is that what you're hearing?
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yes, I mean I think they have been very They
don't really know quite who to vote for. And of
course there's so much there's so much dispute about, you know,
what the priorities are, what the pridetors are going forward
for the church, and so forth, as such a mix
of opinion that I think it's very difficult to gather
around a particular body of opinion to find consensus. I
(28:28):
think it's true.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, Well, we've seen a number of private meetings I
mean I've seen them myself, by various groups of cardinals.
Why is it so hard for them to land on
a candidate or two? They've done this before, at least
the older ones have, and are their promoters of particular
cardinals that you've come across.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
Well, I think it's really part to do with the
diversity of the college now. I mean, there's so many
cardinals from diverse parts of the world. There's more cardinals
than ever at this conclict you've got I think it
was forty eight A different trees. No, anyway, it's gone
up to seventeen now, so it's a it's a large,
a large increase. And so yeah, it's it's a there's
(29:08):
that challenge to contend with, and there's there's other things too.
It's just a very it's a very disparate group, and
and and so many has just said so many different
opinions as well.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Cardinal Dominique Momberte, who celebrated the final Mass of mourning
that I attended on Sunday at Saint Peter's Fort Point Francis,
he's being chattered about by cardinals as a possible compromise candidate.
He is head of the Signatura here in Rome, the
High Court, the Supreme Court of the Vatican. Tell us
(29:41):
a little about him and why his name is emerging now,
do you think.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Yes, Well, he's he's been very much a figure of
the Curia for the last twenty years, really because he
was actually Secretary for Relations with States. He was like
the Vatican foreign minister. I remember when that when he
was in that position, he was he was well regarded.
He was he was not considered though your classic diplomat.
He was. He is somebody who does take doctrine seriously.
(30:08):
He wasn't somebody who wasn't a pragmatist who is willing
to cast that aside. So he's considered to be more
sort of on the conservative way, and if you like,
you want to use that label. So that's what sort
of puts him in that mold. And he's a quiet man.
He's very he's actually quite timid, and I think that
makes him seem as though he could be somebody to
be that sort of calm, safe pair of hands that
(30:31):
manyfield is needed after the the you know, the disruption
of the Francis pontificate.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yes, I keep hearing this from cardinals all over the world.
We want a quiet pontificate. We've had enough noise, We've
had enough chaos. We just want quiet. You know. It's
like a father with children. They don't want them to
be good or bad.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Just quiet.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
What about Cardinal Michael Chersney's comments about African popes that
are now emerging. Tell us about that.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yes, well, he's saying he's been come out quite strongly
in an asker of The New York Times, saying that
he thinks it's I can't really the exact words, but
something like very dangerous about the cardinals, the African cardinals
that he knows and he thinks it would be very,
very problematic if any of them become pope. He was
quite forthright about it, and I think it's probably. I
(31:22):
think probably because the African Church, the cardinals are very
strong on moralists, use they uphold the churches teaching on
the Apostolic tradition and the traditional doctrine, and so I
think that that riles up I think those who are
pushing constantly from an aggressive view.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Of the church. Yeah, Church, we should say as so, Jess.
We're very close collaborator with Pope Francis, and has already
echoed that he thinks the Francis vision should continue. Who
else do you see as papably possible pope at this point,
your top four candidates if you had to run them down,
and I'm asking you to run them down.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Okay, I think just to give sort of an overview,
because I don't think who knows if they can actually
be elected or whatever. But I think Cardinal Peter Erdo
is considered one of the leading candidates because he's a
canon law He's somebody who can put order back into
the church because of the rather lawless few years we've
had under Francis, and that could be done as could
(32:22):
be quite easily done, apparently canonically changed and brought back
to the Church, backed onto an even keel. So he's
one of the leading candidates. Then there's Cardinal Pietro Parlin,
of course, the former Vatican Secretary of State, who who
is well known, and he's got a he's done a
lot in terms of Vatican diplomacy. But there's problems with
(32:42):
him regarding the Vatican China deal of course, which is controversial,
still causing waves.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
And you don't think the financial excuse me for a moment,
you don't believe the financial his involvement in that financial
scandal and the China deal sort of end his candidacy.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, it could do, but I mean the financial deal
is often associated with the London Deal. I mean that
that was I think signed really before he became Secretary
of State. That was under Cardin Bert Tony's leadership in
the Curia, and I think that was that was really yes,
predated Hilka, but he did have some involvement in trying
(33:23):
to resolve it. Yes, so and that was necessarily satisfactory.
So there is that, But and then the other financial
problems were kind of to do with Appso, which is
the office for the real estate and patrimony of that
Holy See, and that was also out of his purview.
So I think he did what he could in that,
(33:44):
and I think that's less of a problem. But certainly
the China deal and his attitude of diplomacy and his
rather pragmatic view, I think that can be seen as
as something problematic going forward.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Give us a sense of any other candidate, so Perolene,
who else?
Speaker 4 (34:01):
Yes, Well, then you've got Cardinal willem Ike of the Netherlands.
He's often not not thought of because he's a very
quiet another quiet cardinal who doesn't make waves, but he's
seen as very solid, somebody who can really write the
ship and becom and you know, bring back a certain
(34:21):
order back to the pontificate. And then I suppose you've
got another, well, another cardinal who's often not mentioned but
is on paper at least has a lot to offer,
and that's Cardinal Malcolm Ranchi to Columbu Sri Lanka. Because
he's he's got all of the experience that you would
want in a pope. He's got the pastoral he was
(34:43):
a parish priest. He's now Chbishop of Columbus, so he's
and he has had to deal with real challenges there.
And he's been a diplomat, though he's not a trained diplomat,
but he was sent to he's a team more by
Pope Benedict to serve there as nuncio. And and he's
got service in the Curia too. He did book as
Secretary of the Dichastriy for Divine Worships, so he's he's
(35:06):
got a good all round vision and he speaks something
like ten languages.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Do you think the Asian bishops would be welcoming to
him or in s important?
Speaker 4 (35:14):
I think they could be.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
And the thing about the Asian cardinals is that they
they're much bigger now. They're much a bigger group. I
think they're only ten at the last one, and now
twenty or twenty five or something. They've I think they've
doubled in numbers, so they have a large presence.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Now. Before I let you go, and I want everybody
to go, read your column, you rotarycent column where you
run down the ten critical issues facing the next pope,
and I'll just run through a few of them. Return
to the papacy as the source of sound doctrine and unity,
clarification a Vatican two and reform of the jests. Which
why are those critical?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Well, because I think the period of the last twelve
years has been very much a clarifying period, if you like,
one in which what's been seen has been a great
ambiguity in doctrine and great confusion and lack of clarity.
So there's been clarity and that there's been lack of clarity,
and so one of that's one of the fruits of
France's pontificate is it inadvertently, in many ways showed a
(36:12):
shed a light on just how problematic and murky the
church doctrine has become question on morals issues, but also
on the liturgy and so forth since since the Council,
and I think it sort of came to a head
under Francis So so I think it's It's also something
that Cardinal pell was very keen on too, was this
return to Apostolic tradition, to clarity of doctrine, to canon
(36:35):
law and respecting canon law. And so I think that
that seems to be that properly is a priority, or
I think many people feel it should be a priority
for them.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
In dependent on what should people be focused on as
this conclave begins, what should they be watchful for? Any
signs in the early you know, once a pope is announced,
the name, he takes, the dress he wears, he appears
on that lord, which we now know means a lot
more than just preference.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Yeah, no, thank you, Raymond. It's going to be very interesting,
and those are the things to look for, because there'll
be signs of where he's going to take the pontificate
and the papacy, and that'll be quite clear. You know,
is he going to stay in the papal apartments, is
he going to stay in the Santa Mata like No Francis,
or is he going to sort of come back to
the more traditional pope, to be a traditional pope like
(37:26):
in the past. And there is a certain wish for that,
I think among many of the faithful. They've at least
that's what I hear, is that they want to become
They want the judge to come back to a little
more to tradition and be rooted in that. So we'll see.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, ed Penon, thank you for all of your good work.
College of Cardinals Report dot com an indispensable source for
who these men are, where they come from, and the
breakdown by the issues is just incredible. Edpon, thank you
for being here.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Thank you Raymond, great to be here.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
The Arroyal Grande Conclave Crew Vatic in addition, will continue
look send those questions in go to Raymond at Raymondarroyo
dot com or just drop it in the comments here.
We'll get to them tomorrow. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe
to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or Arroyo Grande
Podcast wherever you get yours. And this series has been
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(38:18):
Capital Management, Faith Family and Finances there at Taylorforgne dot com,
as well as Floriani Revitalizing Sacred Music Floriani dot org
On behalf of Robert Royal, Father, Gerald Murray and Ed Pentton.
This time we will convene again. I'm Raymond Arroyo from Rome.
See you next time. Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership
(38:40):
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What kind of pope does the world need. We'll tell
you what we've heard from the cardinals here in Rome
and over the last twelve years, what we've observed. The
Conclave Crew has a sketch of the next pope coming up.
Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The Conclave Crew, Vatican Edition,
(00:21):
Episode four. This episode is brought to you by our
friends at Taylor Fragone Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances.
Visit them at taylorfragone dot com. Let's convene the crew.
Father Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York,
Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing dot org,
and I'm Raymond Arroyo. Later in the show, we'll be
(00:42):
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Show and like this episode, be kind like it. The
cardinals met in the Pollinge Chapel earlier today for a
group prayer. Then all one hundred and thirty three of
(01:05):
them posessed into the Sistine Chapel, which will be the
site of the conclave, they swore an oath, and then
Archbishop Diego Raveri yelled in Latin everyone out, sealing them away.
As this college of cardinals has been sealed away to
elect a pope since twelve seventy four. I want to
talk about the shape of who that pope might be.
(01:28):
But first the historic precedent. People forget. This is the
election of Saint Peter's successor, the Apostle, the first Apostle
his stand in if you will. Cardinal Ray admonished these
men this morning as they all met for Mass in
Saint Peter's Basilica. He urged them to turn their attention
to Jesus the Judge, to inspire them to select the
(01:52):
right man to give the keys of heaven. What does
that mean, Father Murray? And why does Peter remain real
Evan and the pope all these years later, two thousand
years after the first Pope Saint Peter.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
The key symbol as actually goes back to the Old Testament.
So the keeper of the keys was sort of the
vice king in this sense. You know, the king gave
his power to the keyholder to let in and out
of the palace, and Jesus gave the power of the
keys to Saint Peter. He is the chief of the apostles.
(02:28):
He's the rock upon which Christ built the Church. So
he has the power of Christ to bind and to loose.
So that basically symbolizes that the Church carries out, through
Saint Peter, a divine function of opening the doors of
Heaven through the administration of the sacraments and the preaching
of the Gospel. So it's a very symbolic thing. That's
(02:49):
why the keys are actually one of the main symbols
you'll see engraved all around Rome and the buildings and
different places where the Holy Father's activities are read out.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, Bob, do you want to emphasize anything there that
this is this is really an apostolic election. It's not
a political fight. It's not a political and regional war about,
you know, who should be in charge of the Catholic Church.
It is a spiritual charge that goes deep, deep into
the history and certainly to the roots of history of Christianity.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, and it isn't even in a way although you
have to take into account the personality of the person
who is about to be elected. I mean, obviously popes
like every human being have personality traits, but this is
not a matter of persons. This is not a respector
of persons. This is an office that has to be
engaged with personally. We talked about yesterday that the Pope
(03:43):
the person, does not become Pope merely by receiving the
proper number of votes, but must also accept it and
take on that responsibility. And I think some of the
commentary I've seen this past week really tries to emphasize
that there were obviously juge Bergolio was a very personable man,
but he relatively neglected the office of Peter. And I
(04:05):
think that the Pope's the cardinals who are electing the
next pope maybe thinking precisely about why it is that
the petrine office ought to maybe be given a little
bit more emphasis than it has recently.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Bob and Father, you saw this new CBS poll, like
anybody cares, but I have to run it down because
it's getting such coverage. Forty two percent of those polls
said they claim to be Catholics. The next Pope should
continue the teachings of Pope. France's thirty seven percent want
more conservative teachings, twenty one percent want more progressive teachings, Bob,
(04:38):
My first question, who are these alleged Catholics?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well, as we know, you know, we've been around the
block on this many times. One of the problems with
doing polls like this is do they talk to Catholics
who go to Mass, who go to confession, who takes
seriously what the church teaches. Once you dig into that,
you get a very much different picture of what Catholics
want and what they don't want. I would tend to
think that the people who are in favor of a
(05:06):
change or in favor of a greater emphasis on what
Francis did, pay more attention to what goes on in room.
But my sense is that by and large most Catholics don't.
They get a favorable or unfavorable view of who the
pope is, and they mostly would respond to a poll
like that. I'm encouraged that thirty seven percent saying that
they would like to have a bit of a change father.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
This poll alleges it again, it alleges that Catholics want
the church to change its position on birth control. Seventy
nine percent want that, fifty seven percent want married priests,
fifty six percent want female priests. My answer would be
there are many communions where these things are already offered.
But explain why the church isn't governed by polls.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, the church is based on the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus,
before he ascended in heaven, commissioned the Twelve Apostles to
propagate the religion of Christianity christ teaching, and he established
as a hierarchical church, meaning that it had appointed leaders
(06:13):
who are shepherds. So we have bishops, priests, and deacons.
And then from the bishops, the Bishop of Rome is
the vicar of Christ. He's the universal shepherd. So the
pope rules over the church in union with and working
with the bishop's priests and deacons.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But right there you have it. The church.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
The apostles didn't get together when they said Jesus is gone,
What are we going to do? Let's form an organization
to propagate his memory. If they founded that, then they
could change the bylaws anytime they had a majority at
the board meeting.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
No.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I mean this is a religion that was given by
God to the people, and specifically to the baptize the
people who followed Christ. As a result, the job of
any teacher is to accurately convey the message that they
have received. And that's really why the printificate of Pope
Francis was so controversial, because he said and did things
(07:07):
that none of his predecessor had ever done, and then
when questioned about it, he'd never really offered a robust justification.
He simply said, we're not changing anything. We're just basically
putting a new way of being a Christian in place,
and that a lot of people find, including me, very
inadequate and needing to be revised.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I mean, Bob, there are a lot of Catholics who
have that understanding that well, if we just get enough
of us, well, this is what the whole Sonatal way
is about. I mean, the Senate is really let's pack
the invitees that we like who agree with us ideologically,
and then we can change the bylaws, we can shift
the doctrine. And you were right that CBS does concede.
If you go down to the bottom of the article
in this poll they did, they can see that a
(07:50):
smaller group of those Catholics who attend Mass a few
times a month think the church is in touch with
the needs of the people. The non church attendees believe
it's out of touch, So I'll give you last word
on this.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, yeah, you know, in America in particular, a lot
of people are Catholic in name and Protestant in belief,
because we believe that Christ did us a great favor,
a great grace, a great mercy in leaving us an
institution that helps us to understand what he taught and
has a continuity going back to his closest collaborators as
(08:23):
colleagues among the apostles. By contrast, Protestants kind of think
it's solo scriptura, sola vide, that they make it up
on their own. Well, if you think about this for
a second, this really means that there is no firm teaching,
that there is no authority that tells.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
You what to do.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I mean, I read a book once and when I
just looked into the fifteenth century, sixteenth century when the
Protestant Reformation started, within just a few decades, there were
two hundred and fifty or more different theories of what
the Eucharist was. So, look, it's a great thing to
have a church that we can rely on. There can
still be debates in the church about how exactly we
(09:02):
receive things at this moment in history, but the basics
of the faith have been laid out, and if we
don't have a church, then probably we don't really have Christianity.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
M okay, let's talk about the next pope. Qualities you
believe he must have informed by what you're hearing as
well as what we've seen over the last couple of decades,
really thirty years covering a series of pontificates draw sketch
for us. First up doctrine. There seems to be a
lot of doctrinal confusion out there in the wake of
(09:32):
the Francis pontificate. Cardinal after cardinal has mentioned, and I'll
quote from my notes, chaos, rampant confusion, doctrinal incoherency. Father,
Why are they saying that? And what must the next
Pope do?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
They're saying that because Pope Francis regrettably said things that
contradicted previous church teaching. For instance, he said, divorced and
remarried people who who do not have an omen are
entitled to receive communion in particular cases, but who decides
which other particular cases?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So that was never taught.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Adultery is a mortal sin, and those who are in
an adulterous relationship are objectively in a serious sin, so
they should not be allowed to receive community. That's what
it was taught by John Paul, the second in Benedict.
Pope Francis regrettably said that homosexual couples and I put
note exactly what was in the document, homosexual couples can
be blessed by the priest. Well, we never said that
(10:33):
anybody can be blessed, and we don't ask people before
we bless them whether what their particular state in life is.
But when few people come together and say we're in
a romantic and sexual relationship and we're in the same
sex and we want to be blessed, her says, no,
that's not blessible because that kind of relationship is immoral.
Similarly to Pope said that the death penalty is a
(10:55):
violation of human rights. It's an unjust act of vengeance.
The church is never taught that is taught that it's
moral and cases of grave crime. And then lastly, the
Pope said that all religions are paths to God. He
said that when he was in Indonesia, and that the
Church has never taught we say that men are searching
on different paths to arrive at God, but that God
(11:16):
has given us only one path, his son Jesus Christ,
who said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Those are just four examples of things that he said
which are very unsettling because the Church has never said
those things. So I think the next pope for me
prime quality required doctrinal orthodoxy and anability to explain and
defend and promote the teaching of the church.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Bob, do you want to amplify anything there at anything there?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah, just one point I've been reading lately about the
nature of what's called managerialism. It's the theory of how
you manage an organization, and people who practice this by
and large emphasized process over results. And so what we've
seen with the Sonatyl Church is the one And yes,
it is kind of affirmed and it is left. You know,
(12:03):
LGBT is more morally outside of Christianity, but we need
to also be close and maybe be discussing where. But
that's this kind of managerial where you don't actually have
to tell some people yes and other people know. And
a church that operates like that, even if it doesn't
explicitly contradict the Gospels, or if it doesn't explicitly say
(12:26):
that when Jesus says, no man comes to the Father
except through me, it gives the impression because the conversation
keeps going on and on and on, and the process
itself begins to tell you will you know maybe someday?
And I think that that even if you, I wouldn't
defend every word that France has put down in some
(12:47):
of these controversial places by any means. But even if
a person wanted to defend that, he would have to
admit that there is this additional sense of constantly being
on the brink of changing something, and that was deliberately cultivated.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Auble haha, father speak, if you will to what we're hearing.
We heard this repeatedly throughout the last week or so.
It seems the cardinals are very interested in restoring canon law,
the norms that were once in place. Now. This is
one of the reasons people are looking to Cardinals Airdo
and Mamberti, both esteemed canonists, who could certainly speak to
(13:24):
this concern. They think they could restore the canonical norms.
Where are we now and what should the next pope do?
Why are they so alarmed about this?
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Canon law is a set of rules that the Catholic
Church operates under. Canon law has origins going way back
to the beginning of the church. So the Catholic Church
views itself as an institution with sovereignty. In other words,
it rules with God's authority over the people. And part
of being a sovereign is you establish a set of
laws and then you enforce those laws. Because laws promote
(13:59):
so justice, they protect protection of the rights of people,
good order, all the things necessary people to flourish. Now,
Pope Francis ignored Canon law in many instances. I could
go into specifics, but it would be too boring. But
it was notorious for ignoring the law, or giving dispensations
(14:19):
or enacting things apart from the law. So one example
was he threw out some members of a religious congregation
without due process.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
They got a letter.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Saying you're no longer a member.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
They never had the You know, in.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Canon law you can throw people at religious or for
just cause, but they have a right to defense. So
you have to issue a process. We're going to investigate,
We're going to hear the evidence. We're going to present
the evidence to the accused. The accused as a right
to respond. Then the judge makes a judge in this case,
the pope's an investigator and just issued a decree. So
what we need in the Catholic Church is let's have
(14:52):
social order through the faithful observance of the rules that
are set down in advance in canon law.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Want to move on to a liberal website, publish something
called the Sins of Pope Francis, and among them were
I'm going to run through these, an authoritarian exercise of power,
a devaluation of the church heritage. How can the next
pope restore that mob and what might that man bring
to the table to restore those particular concerns.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Boy, that's an interesting list from a I'm just skimming.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Well.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Look for me, I think one of the most important
things symbolically he could do would be to bring back
the traditional Latin Mass, because in one fell swoop that
kind of says, look, we are still back in continuity
with the church. You know, as our friend Richard John
Newhouse used to say, boy, there's a lot of church
history before Vatican too. And so if you're going to
(15:49):
basic the contemporary Catholic Church solely on what's happened in
the last fifty sixty years, you're really cutting yourself off
from a very great richness. And Vatican two talked about
two things. People forget this. They talked about a jornamento,
which is an Italian word that means an updating, but
it also talked about russo small, which means going back
to the early church fathers and really deep digging into
(16:12):
the ways that they thought, that the way that they spoke,
why is it that they gave us the tradition that
we have. And so you can do both things at once.
You can engage the modern world but also be looking
more deeply back into your own tradition. For me, that
is what the play of faith and reason always does
in the modern world, and we were lacking that. I
(16:33):
think that there was an emphasis on reaching out that
was good, but there was an over.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Emphasis on that.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
And what we need to do is to restore a
balance where we say, yes, we're willing to talk with you,
we're willing to welcome you, but this is who we
are and understand in the conversation that when you talk
with the Catholic Church, we don't just make it up
from day to day. We don't just tell you what
you want to hear. We're here for the long run.
We've been here for a long time, and we tend
to be here for a long time into the future.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
What do you expect this next pope to do vis
a vis the liturgy? I mean, Bob talked about the
suppression of the old right, the old Roman right, the
trident Team, Latin Mass, and really, but there was a
diminishment of the grandeur of Catholic liturgy and all expressions
of the pope. Really, what do you think the cardinals
are looking for in the next man and who might
(17:20):
fit that built.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well, that's a very interesting question because you know, Paul
Francis had a minimalistic view of how you celebrate the libergy. Certainly,
celebrate the Mass validly and all, but you know, he
used Vatican's glorious investments, he kind of didn't use those.
There are a lot of rituals he kind of dropped,
and things he did not allow, as Bob said, the
Latin Mass, the traditional Latin Mass to be celebrated elsewhere.
(17:44):
He made a whole set of unnecessary enemies, you could say,
because people who like the Latin Mass are generally very
pro papal, but here they were thrown out of the
I mean literally thrown out of churches. You know, I've
never heard of a pastor of provision in which throwing
faithful Catholics out of their parishes was viewed as something
charitable or necessary. So I think that has.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
To be resolved.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But you know, it's kind of an area in the
life of the Church ever since the reform, after the
Second Vatican Council, there's been great upsetness and things that
are unsettled jump all the Second and Benedict tried to
remedy it. But I think this is a work that's
going to go on for another fifty to one hundred
years of trying to arrive at a modernized yet reverential
(18:27):
liturgy which may be in the vernacular but is very
very much like the traditional Latin Mass and how it's celebrated.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Bob, I want to talk for a moment about the
Wall Street Journal reports that since Pope Francis took over
twelve years ago, the budget deficit for the Vatican tripled.
The pension fund you mentioned this in one of our
earlier episodes. It has a two billion dollar liability that
it cannot fund, and four hundred million dollars was lost
in that ridiculous real estate deal in Britain. How important
(18:58):
will financial can considerations a sense of find being a
good steward of money is given and protecting that money.
Will this next pope have to be well?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It would beggar belief, at least for me to think
that the cardinals who buy and large are at least
responsible men. Would which select someone who would be unable
to deal with that, or if they wanted someone who's
sort of a spiritual figurehead we've talked about Cardinal Saraz
and not particularly an administrator, but they would have to
have some guarantees that this issue would be addressed. I mean,
(19:32):
in a sense, the abuse crisis is a moral crisis
inside the church that absolutely must be addressed, and this
financial question is a material crisis in the church that
has to be addressed. We know that there have been
reductions in Peter's pence, that Peter Spence has been used
for expenses, that there have been assets of the Vatican
(19:54):
that have been sold off I think mostly at this
point real estate assets, but it's not hard to imagine
in the very near future that they're going to have
to start dipping into some of the artwork or the
books in the Vatican Library. This is not a good situation.
It doesn't show a Catholic people that are supporting the
Vatican the way we would expect them to and then
they did in the past. So it's not just a
(20:15):
matter of identifying this, but it's also a matter of
identifying a person who we thought we were getting with
hard work Abergolia, but we didn't. Who can rectify the financial.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well father, that's the question. And look, it's a big
concern as as I look at this, we remembered twelve
years ago Jorge Bergolio was elected because they imagined our
friend George Cardinal pell imagined that Pope Francis would be
the great reformer of not only finances but the Vatican bureaucracy.
Neither of those things really panned out. So talk about
the financial part and connect it to what Bob was
(20:47):
talking about, the sex abuse crisis. How did Pope Francis
handle that and what must the next pope do to
restore order and confidence in the church.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, they're definitely going to need respect administration of what
we call the goods of the church, meaning it's assets,
it's donations, its buildings, and when we're talking about the
Holy See in the Vatican. They have a lot of
assets in a lot of places, but they're notoriously not
well managed, particularly real estate. I'll have to look at that,
(21:18):
and you're going to have to figure out how to
finance this deficit of pensions. You know, a pension is
not a gift. A pension is owed to people who
worked for you, and the employer deferred compensation in the
form of a pension, rather than giving them all the
money at the moment. So that has to be.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
That's a matter of justice.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Now, sex abuse, the Pope made some inroads with some
documents and some processes. He established a process to prosecute
bishops and other religious superiors who protected predator priests, but
the application was spotty and in some cases there was
no application, and this is a real problem. His first
(21:58):
bishop he named after he became pope, is a man
named Zanketta. He was a friend of his a priest
from Argentina, and Zanketta, as a diozin bishop, was convicted
of abusing seminarians in his diocese. The Pope's they had
to say when informed of the charges, believe Zanketta's lie
that his phone had been hacked. I gave Zanketta a
(22:19):
job in the Vatican, and then after he was convicted,
he never prosecuted him with the canon law product. It
took forever and then we were told this passed.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
You.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well, the process is ongoing, but when the pope died,
they hadn't yet to have a trial, even though it's
been going on for three or four years. So the
Zenketa case, there's a Rupni case. I won't go into that.
Sex abuse has to be treated for what it is.
It is a crime. It doesn't matter who you know
(22:49):
or what position you were occupying nature. You commit a crime,
and you're a minister of the Gospel, you need to
be punished and removed.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I hope that there was zero tolerance unless you knew
the pope, and that's a problem. So hopefully there'll be
one standard for everybody, and zero tolerance is not a
bad one, but with due process, I mean not all
these cases. These men are not always guilty, but you
have to explore them. There has to be a canonical
process and was hopefully the next pope will embrace that
and understand that. The final message of the College of
(23:18):
Cardinals gents as they came out of their general congregations
the last meeting. This got very little attention and it
could have outsized influence on how they choose this next pope.
They lamented the lack of progress promoting peace in the Ukraine,
the Middle East and other areas of the world, and
then they issued quote a heartfelt appeal to all parties
(23:40):
involved to reach as soon as possible a permanent ceasefire
and to negotiate without preconditions and further delays the peace
so deeply desired by the affected populations in the entire world. Bob,
what influence will that statement have? Very important that it
came at the end of the congregation meetings. They didn't
often issue statements like this, What influence will that have?
(24:02):
And who fits the bill to facilitate that kind of
piece and at least initiate it. The Pope can't bring peace,
but he can initiate it and certainly advocate.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
For it well. For me, Pizza Bala, the archbishop and
cardinal archbishop from Jerusalem, who has done so well in
managing that very difficult circumstance in the Middle East, in
Gaza and also in Israel, he stands out immediately it
seems to me as the candidate that might be able
(24:33):
to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Tell me what you think the next pope will look like.
I don't even name. I'm really not interested in a man,
but sketch him for me. Well.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I think the next Pope has to be a visible
man of prayer and meditation, that he is scripturally rich
in speaking about the Gospel to people. I think he
has to be a man who is confident in his role,
that he is in fact the successor of Peter and
the first representative of God on earth, and that he
(25:03):
cooperates with brother bishops, but he does so in the
role of Peter, which is to lead and to guide
them and confirm them in the faith. I think that's
the first thing. Secondly, I think the next pope has
to be someone who is a realist, meaning he understands
clearly that the financial criminal and other scandals surrounding the
Holy See are not simply subjects of lamentation. They have
(25:27):
to be things that need to be dealt with in
the way a civil government deals with the problems of
crime and associated economic chaos. So, in other word, you
have to be hard headed, so you have to do
what's required to put the house in order, and to
prosecute criminal priests, and to make sure that is quite
(25:48):
clear to people in the Catholic Church, who you know
is irrelevant. What counts as whether you faithful to the
Gospel and your duties.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
That's what counts. Look, I agree with all of that.
I also think we need a pope who will be
manly stand in the middle of the world with this
countercultural message of Jesus Christ and confront that world with
the eternal answers that matter and that still have relevance.
I think it really is important. And you know, John Paul,
(26:19):
even Francis, they both went out to the world and
declared the message. It has to be a clear, unwavering message.
And I think if that pope emerges from this conclave,
millions of people will be drawn to this faith, especially
young people. We're beginning to see the shoots of that
springtime that John Paul talked about. But boy, are there
are a lot of land mines that this next pope will
(26:42):
have to dodge and diffuse before we get there. Gentlemen,
we'll leave it there for the moment, but we're going
to do something very special tomorrow. We're going to answer
your questions all of you watching this Conclave Crew series,
drop them in the comments below, or you can send
them to Raymond at Raymondarroyo dot com Raymond at Raymond
Royo dot com and we will try to get to
as many of those as we can. I know there
(27:03):
are a lot of them. I've been seeing them all week,
so we'll get to those. Thank you. Conclave Crew. Ed
Penton Vatican Journalists is next with the major candidates who
could be popes. Stay there. Are you looking for financial
management that reflects your deepest values? Taylor for Gone Capital
Management actively manages portfolios designed for those who prioritize faith, family,
(27:26):
and long term stewardship throughout their mutual fund, separately managed
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driven investing to support your faith, family, and finances. There
at Taylorfogne dot com. As a special edition I wanted
to bring in and I so regard his work as
(27:48):
just the best in the business. We're joined by Senior
correspondent of the National Catholic Register, the best reporter in
Rome and author of the College of Cardinals Report, Ed Pennon.
Ed thanks for being here. I've heard from annumber of cardinals.
How hopelessly undecided they seem to be going into this conclict.
Is that what you're hearing?
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yes, I mean I think they have been very They
don't really know quite who to vote for. And of
course there's so much there's so much dispute about, you know,
what the priorities are, what the pridetors are going forward
for the church, and so forth, as such a mix
of opinion that I think it's very difficult to gather
around a particular body of opinion to find consensus. I
(28:28):
think it's true.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, Well, we've seen a number of private meetings I
mean I've seen them myself, by various groups of cardinals.
Why is it so hard for them to land on
a candidate or two? They've done this before, at least
the older ones have, and are their promoters of particular
cardinals that you've come across.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
Well, I think it's really part to do with the
diversity of the college now. I mean, there's so many
cardinals from diverse parts of the world. There's more cardinals
than ever at this conclict you've got I think it
was forty eight A different trees. No, anyway, it's gone
up to seventeen now, so it's a it's a large,
a large increase. And so yeah, it's it's a there's
(29:08):
that challenge to contend with, and there's there's other things too.
It's just a very it's a very disparate group, and
and and so many has just said so many different
opinions as well.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Cardinal Dominique Momberte, who celebrated the final Mass of mourning
that I attended on Sunday at Saint Peter's Fort Point Francis,
he's being chattered about by cardinals as a possible compromise candidate.
He is head of the Signatura here in Rome, the
High Court, the Supreme Court of the Vatican. Tell us
(29:41):
a little about him and why his name is emerging now,
do you think.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Yes, Well, he's he's been very much a figure of
the Curia for the last twenty years, really because he
was actually Secretary for Relations with States. He was like
the Vatican foreign minister. I remember when that when he
was in that position, he was he was well regarded.
He was he was not considered though your classic diplomat.
He was. He is somebody who does take doctrine seriously.
(30:08):
He wasn't somebody who wasn't a pragmatist who is willing
to cast that aside. So he's considered to be more
sort of on the conservative way, and if you like,
you want to use that label. So that's what sort
of puts him in that mold. And he's a quiet man.
He's very he's actually quite timid, and I think that
makes him seem as though he could be somebody to
be that sort of calm, safe pair of hands that
(30:31):
manyfield is needed after the the you know, the disruption
of the Francis pontificate.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yes, I keep hearing this from cardinals all over the world.
We want a quiet pontificate. We've had enough noise, We've
had enough chaos. We just want quiet. You know. It's
like a father with children. They don't want them to
be good or bad.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Just quiet.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
What about Cardinal Michael Chersney's comments about African popes that
are now emerging. Tell us about that.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yes, well, he's saying he's been come out quite strongly
in an asker of The New York Times, saying that
he thinks it's I can't really the exact words, but
something like very dangerous about the cardinals, the African cardinals
that he knows and he thinks it would be very,
very problematic if any of them become pope. He was
quite forthright about it, and I think it's probably. I
(31:22):
think probably because the African Church, the cardinals are very
strong on moralists, use they uphold the churches teaching on
the Apostolic tradition and the traditional doctrine, and so I
think that that riles up I think those who are
pushing constantly from an aggressive view.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Of the church. Yeah, Church, we should say as so, Jess.
We're very close collaborator with Pope Francis, and has already
echoed that he thinks the Francis vision should continue. Who
else do you see as papably possible pope at this point,
your top four candidates if you had to run them down,
and I'm asking you to run them down.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Okay, I think just to give sort of an overview,
because I don't think who knows if they can actually
be elected or whatever. But I think Cardinal Peter Erdo
is considered one of the leading candidates because he's a
canon law He's somebody who can put order back into
the church because of the rather lawless few years we've
had under Francis, and that could be done as could
(32:22):
be quite easily done, apparently canonically changed and brought back
to the Church, backed onto an even keel. So he's
one of the leading candidates. Then there's Cardinal Pietro Parlin,
of course, the former Vatican Secretary of State, who who
is well known, and he's got a he's done a
lot in terms of Vatican diplomacy. But there's problems with
(32:42):
him regarding the Vatican China deal of course, which is controversial,
still causing waves.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
And you don't think the financial excuse me for a moment,
you don't believe the financial his involvement in that financial
scandal and the China deal sort of end his candidacy.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, it could do, but I mean the financial deal
is often associated with the London Deal. I mean that
that was I think signed really before he became Secretary
of State. That was under Cardin Bert Tony's leadership in
the Curia, and I think that was that was really yes,
predated Hilka, but he did have some involvement in trying
(33:23):
to resolve it. Yes, so and that was necessarily satisfactory.
So there is that, But and then the other financial
problems were kind of to do with Appso, which is
the office for the real estate and patrimony of that
Holy See, and that was also out of his purview.
So I think he did what he could in that,
(33:44):
and I think that's less of a problem. But certainly
the China deal and his attitude of diplomacy and his
rather pragmatic view, I think that can be seen as
as something problematic going forward.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Give us a sense of any other candidate, so Perolene,
who else?
Speaker 4 (34:01):
Yes, Well, then you've got Cardinal willem Ike of the Netherlands.
He's often not not thought of because he's a very
quiet another quiet cardinal who doesn't make waves, but he's
seen as very solid, somebody who can really write the
ship and becom and you know, bring back a certain
(34:21):
order back to the pontificate. And then I suppose you've
got another, well, another cardinal who's often not mentioned but
is on paper at least has a lot to offer,
and that's Cardinal Malcolm Ranchi to Columbu Sri Lanka. Because
he's he's got all of the experience that you would
want in a pope. He's got the pastoral he was
(34:43):
a parish priest. He's now Chbishop of Columbus, so he's
and he has had to deal with real challenges there.
And he's been a diplomat, though he's not a trained diplomat,
but he was sent to he's a team more by
Pope Benedict to serve there as nuncio. And and he's
got service in the Curia too. He did book as
Secretary of the Dichastriy for Divine Worships, so he's he's
(35:06):
got a good all round vision and he speaks something
like ten languages.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Do you think the Asian bishops would be welcoming to
him or in s important?
Speaker 4 (35:14):
I think they could be.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
And the thing about the Asian cardinals is that they
they're much bigger now. They're much a bigger group. I
think they're only ten at the last one, and now
twenty or twenty five or something. They've I think they've
doubled in numbers, so they have a large presence.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Now. Before I let you go, and I want everybody
to go, read your column, you rotarycent column where you
run down the ten critical issues facing the next pope,
and I'll just run through a few of them. Return
to the papacy as the source of sound doctrine and unity,
clarification a Vatican two and reform of the jests. Which
why are those critical?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Well, because I think the period of the last twelve
years has been very much a clarifying period, if you like,
one in which what's been seen has been a great
ambiguity in doctrine and great confusion and lack of clarity.
So there's been clarity and that there's been lack of clarity,
and so one of that's one of the fruits of
France's pontificate is it inadvertently, in many ways showed a
(36:12):
shed a light on just how problematic and murky the
church doctrine has become question on morals issues, but also
on the liturgy and so forth since since the Council,
and I think it sort of came to a head
under Francis So so I think it's It's also something
that Cardinal pell was very keen on too, was this
return to Apostolic tradition, to clarity of doctrine, to canon
(36:35):
law and respecting canon law. And so I think that
that seems to be that properly is a priority, or
I think many people feel it should be a priority
for them.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
In dependent on what should people be focused on as
this conclave begins, what should they be watchful for? Any
signs in the early you know, once a pope is announced,
the name, he takes, the dress he wears, he appears
on that lord, which we now know means a lot
more than just preference.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Yeah, no, thank you, Raymond. It's going to be very interesting,
and those are the things to look for, because there'll
be signs of where he's going to take the pontificate
and the papacy, and that'll be quite clear. You know,
is he going to stay in the papal apartments, is
he going to stay in the Santa Mata like No Francis,
or is he going to sort of come back to
the more traditional pope, to be a traditional pope like
(37:26):
in the past. And there is a certain wish for that,
I think among many of the faithful. They've at least
that's what I hear, is that they want to become
They want the judge to come back to a little
more to tradition and be rooted in that. So we'll see.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, ed Penon, thank you for all of your good work.
College of Cardinals Report dot com an indispensable source for
who these men are, where they come from, and the
breakdown by the issues is just incredible. Edpon, thank you
for being here.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Thank you Raymond, great to be here.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
The Arroyal Grande Conclave Crew Vatic in addition, will continue
look send those questions in go to Raymond at Raymondarroyo
dot com or just drop it in the comments here.
We'll get to them tomorrow. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe
to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or Arroyo Grande
Podcast wherever you get yours. And this series has been
brought to you by our friends at Taylor for Gone
(38:18):
Capital Management, Faith Family and Finances there at Taylorforgne dot com,
as well as Floriani Revitalizing Sacred Music Floriani dot org
On behalf of Robert Royal, Father, Gerald Murray and Ed Pentton.
This time we will convene again. I'm Raymond Arroyo from Rome.
See you next time. Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership
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