June 27, 2025 • 35 mins
In this powerful episode of The Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo joins forces with Father Gerald Murray and Robert Royal to explore modern Catholic miracles, including the incorrupt body of Sister Wilhelmina Lancaster and the rise in belief in the supernatural across society.
They discuss Pope Leo XIV’s homily on the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes, his Corpus Christi procession through the streets of Rome, and the powerful Eucharistic tradition rooted in Church history.
The episode also tackles urgent topics such as:
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The truth about Eucharistic miracles
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The Church’s official stance on miracles and incorrupt saints
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A new Washington State law that could threaten the seal of confession
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The spiritual dangers of AI relationships and digital isolation
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How natural law and supernatural faith intersect in modern life
Whether you're Catholic, curious about the miraculous, or concerned about the ethical dangers of technology, this episode delivers deep insight, real stories, and a call to faith in a secular world.
🕊️ Subscribe to The Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or iHeartRadio to stay updated with The Prayerful Posse.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Miracles.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Pope Leo addressed a major miracle of the Vatican this week.
What did he say? And our miracles still happening? The
Prayerful Posse will tell you next. Welcome to a royal
Grande series, The Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters
(00:24):
of faith and its impact on culture. Let's convene the
Posse joining me now, the entire Posse is present, Father
Gerald Murray, canon lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York,
and Robert Royal, editor in chief of the Catholic Thing.
And I'm Raymond Arroyo. I'm so glad we're all together. Gang,
that's nice. Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show, the
channel on iHeart Apple, Spotify or on YouTube at Arroyo
(00:48):
Grande Show so you don't miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
We don't want you to do that now.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
This week, Pope Leo offered a teaching on Jesus's Miracle
of the Fishes and the Loaves, which I will get
to in a moment, but before we do that, Gang,
we've gotten a lot of questions over the last few
weeks about miracles. Father, what are miracles in the mind
of the church. I mean Are these just magic tricks
and are they still happening today?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, Miracles is an intervention by God in human history
to achieve some good purpose, to obviously promote the salvation
of mankind, and to deal with an immediate situation. So
we hear miracles of prinstance, healing the blind man who
was healed. We have the miracle of raising people from
(01:35):
the dead, such as Lazarus, the miracle of the multiplication
of the loaves. So miracles are things that are humanly
impossible that God accomplishes through his omnipotence and all powerfulness.
But they're always to achieve a purpose, to inspire faith, repentance,
and to be a preview, so to speak, of the
(01:56):
life of heaven.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's the divine intruding into the natural world and
sort of making as it's the veil being pulled back
a little bit and a consolation. But Bob, there are
reports that belief in miracles is on the rise across society.
Among those with graduate degrees, sixty three percent say they
believe in miracles. According to this statician Ryan Burge, Evangelicals
(02:21):
and African Americans believe in the miraculous Somewhere near eighty
percent Catholics a little less.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So what is the driving force here?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
What do you think is compelling them all to even
have an awareness of the supernatural and the miraculous around them.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Well, I don't know exactly, and I think Ryan Burge
is a very reliable sociologist. I'm sure that those figures
are accurate. Look, one of the greatest miracles of all
is the very existence of the universe. That God created
says something out of nothing, and you know, we kind
of take it for granted because we live our daily
lives and we forget about things. But I'm not surprised
by this in the sense that I think a lot
(03:00):
of people reacting against the kind of reductive materialism and
scientism that exists in the world. Just they're reaching out
for something that transcends the every day. And of course
we want to be careful about this. The Church actually
is very cautious in declaring anything to be a miracle,
or at least that there's nothing against it being cleared
(03:21):
to a miracle. A lot of what the kind of
enthusiasms that may exist, you know, in Pentecostalist groups or
in evangelical groups, it may may not be miracles that
they're recording. But look, it's just good that they've tuned
into that. And I really wish that Catholics would be
more robust in following our tradition which clearly teaches that
(03:42):
our Lord performed miracles, and there have been miracles throughout
the history of the church.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, look, I've witnessed a few myself. With Mother Angelica.
You know, this is a woman who from the time
I knew, or really from the nineteen fifties, she was
in crutches and had a brace that ran down her back.
And there was this moment where a woman comes in
asks to pray the Rosary with her. They pray the
Rosary and she feels this warmth running down her legs
(04:07):
and the woman tells her an Italian, take the braces off.
And she did it, but she was a little worried
because every time she'd done that before, she felt on
her face. Frankly, she didn't have the strength to hold
her body up. Well after that, she didn't need those
crutches or braces ever again for the remainder of her life.
So I guess the miraculous God does intrude in when
(04:29):
he decides and for his own purposes. She believed that
was to give people hope, and I think it was
to give her hope at a.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Very dark moment in her life.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
But as another example of this, something we've witnessed in
recent years in Missoura, the foundress of an order of nuns,
the Benedictine Sisters of Mary, died about six years ago. Well,
when the nuns exzoomed the remains of Sister Wilhelmina Lancaster
to move her to an alter chapel in their chapel,
(04:57):
they were shocked to find that the fire andres's body
had not decomposed, but was incorrupt. Now hundreds have flocked
since that time to see Sister Wilhelmina's body and witness
what some call We aren't calling it that, but some
call it a miracle. And the local bishop issue to
report and found no evidence of decay even though she
(05:19):
was not embalmed. There are a series of saints' father
over many years. They call them the Incorruptibles, who they
when they go to open the tomb for various reasons
to confirm their sanctity. As Bob was mentioning, that's part
of the church's confirmation of Saintthood. They do have to
open the casket and check the remains. That's where relics
are taken. Saint Catherine la Beret, Saint Teresa Vavela, Saint Bernadette,
(05:44):
the Fatom of Visionary, all were incorrupt.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
My question is what are these occurrences mean.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Father, Well, I'm glad you've brought up Sister Wilhelmina because
I'm actually reading the short biography of her right now
that was published by her sisters. It's available from Tano Books.
And Sister Wilhelmina exactly. She was a nun who founded
this congregation. She was devoted to the Latin Mass, and
she gathered other sisters around her. She looked, I believe,
(06:10):
to age ninety six. She was very elderly, but always vivacious.
And you know, her burial was just the ordinary burial
with honor of any Catholic. But then when they opened
the tomb and found that her body was incorrupt, this
is a sign from heaven, as you say, no embalming.
So this really is something and it's symbol you know.
(06:32):
The way you kind of look at is says it's
a preview of the second Coming of Christ, when all
the bodies will be raised from the tombs and restored,
and the just will be brought to heaven, the damned
will go to hell. So the fact that her body,
in anticipation of that resurrection is not corrupted, it's a
good sign. It's a reminder for us all that the
(06:52):
body is a gift from God which he will restore
at the second Coming, and will be body and soul
either in heaven or health for ro all eternity.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Bob to non Catholics, they hear about this, And you know,
there are some shrines you can go to in Italy
and France where they actually under the altar. They have
glass and you can see the body of these saints there,
some of them incorrupt. You know, they look as if
they did the day they died. What does that point to?
Why take the time to venerate and make that a
(07:23):
centerpiece of consideration by the faithful?
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Well, I agree with Father entirely that this is kind
of a precursor of when the soul and body will
be The resurrection of the body is a teaching of
the Catholic Church, and that we will all be reunited
with our bodies because as human beings. We are a
composite of body and of soul. We will not just
be in the new Heaven and new Earth comes about
(07:50):
at the end of time. We will not just be
disembodied spirits. We will actually be reunited with our bodies,
glorified bodies, not the bodies that we have now. Because
of the Fall, we have a different type of existence
than we would have had if we were still in
God's original plan in creating the world. Look, there's a
lot of skepticism about all claims about miracles. You see.
(08:11):
You know, you see scientists who claim that you know,
there are natural cures of cancer or whatever there may
be that you see a curate lords or someplace. This
is just a will to disbelieve. We should be I
think as Catholics, we should record when these things happen.
We should be grateful when they happen. Obviously, what they
mean is it is in God's hands, but they are
(08:33):
kind of a way to kind of perk us up.
It's kind of an evil in law once put it,
it's a it's a tug on the line. It just
kind of brings us up a little bit higher into
that spiritual world.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, and you know, watching Pope Leo this past week,
he celebrated the feast of Corpus Christie, the body and
blood of Jesus, That's what Corpus Christie means. He even
restored the tradition of walking on foot, and he carried
the monster for more than a mile through the streets
of Rome. Now, this feast, and I was surprised, and
(09:05):
I'll bet this will surprise a lot of people. That
feast day of Corpus Christie is actually the fruit of
a eucharistic miracle where the consecrated host bleeds or turns
to flesh.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And in twelve.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Sixty three, a priest was celebrating Mass just outside of Orvieto, Spain,
and he prayed for faith to believe that Christ was
truly present in that consecrated host. And as he said Mass,
the host began to bleed. He took it to Pope
Urban the Fourth, who confirmed the miracle and a year
later established this solemnity of Corpus Christi, which is still
(09:41):
being celebrated in the Church to this very day. Why
is this such an important feast day? Father, And I
guess somehow along the way I didn't realize it was
connected to that eucharistic miracle.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, slight correction. Orvieto's in Italy. It's an hour and
a half outside of Rome, and that's where that and
I actually went to the cathedral in Orvieto and you
can see the corporal, which is the square cloth upon
which the host dripped blood. Now why is it so important, Well,
because it's really at the catechism of the Catholic churches.
The Eucharist makes the Church. The Eucharist is the body
(10:15):
and blood of Christ. The Church is the mystical body
of Christ. How do we join together in the mystical
body of Christ to baptism and then the Holy Eucharist.
So you know, we call it the divine Bread, which
is the body and blood of Christ. So when Jesus
turned bread into his body and blood, then we drink
and eat. We eat and drink of that, and therefore
(10:37):
we're united to Him in the most intimate way. So
to honor the holy, holy communion of the Holy Eucharist
is really a duty of all the faithful.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
And you're right.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
When Pope Leo walked through Rome, by the way, it
was pretty hot, and he had all the vestments and
he walked for a mile.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
And you can say, this is what we need.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
An inspiring figure, the Pope himself saying to the world,
don't look at me, look at what I'm holding in
my hand. This gold and amonstrance is a gold container
looks beautiful, but what's in it is what used to
be a piece of bread and now it's God. That
is a great message.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, and Bob these I guess Carlos ukudis the soon
to be saint. He was a young man who created
a website collecting all of these eucharistic miracles. I think
are something like thirty four or thirty five of them.
Some of them are a bit I have to say wild.
I mean, you know, a priest is saying Mass and
all of a sudden the host turns to a piece
(11:35):
of flesh. They've tested it and found it was heart tissue.
In some cases, they've tested the blood type and it's
only got you know, it's one part of the blood type.
It's all very strange phenomena. Why does the church aid
take time to note these things visa via the Eucharist?
And secondly, why don't more people talk about them?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Well, look, Jesus himself says, while you walk the earth,
unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you
will not have eternal life. I mean, this is a
great warning in a way, I think, and Vatican too
said about the Eucharist that it's the source and the
summit of the faith. The faith comes to us from
(12:21):
that and we flow back into it, and it's a
way that we participate in the divine life of Jesus,
who himself was both God and man. Look, we have
to be careful about these things. And naturally the Church
looks very carefully at any claim that there has been
some kind of miraculous event connection all the Eucharist, because
(12:42):
there have been impostors who have tried to one over
on some group or other. I've been orviated to myself,
and I think of it. It is very moving. But look,
we know that even in Jesus's day when he proclaimed this,
people found it hard to believe. I mean, it's a mystery.
It's a strange mystery, but it's one that somehow energizes
(13:03):
the faith in all of us. And you know, remember
the Apostles when he says to the me, you know,
are you going to leave me too? A lot of people.
A lot of the followers left him when he proclaimed this,
and they said, well, where else are we going to go?
You've got the words of eternal life. So look, we
have to preserve all that together. We need to be
vigilant at what was being claimed is actually true. Truly,
(13:25):
in this case, it means that it's going to be inexplicable,
it's going to be sometimes strange to us. But again,
this is the kind of thing that takes us out
of ordinariness. And I've always think when I'm thinking of
the Eucharus, back to Flannery O'Connors, who happen to be
at a dinner party with some sophisticates, the ones who said, well, yeah,
it's a symbol, and she said, well it's it's just
a symbol, the hell with it. It's much more than that.
(13:47):
It's God giving us his participation in his life via
the bread and the wine.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, and I think these eucharistic miracles, as you rightly
point out, the Church does investigate all of these, and
even in the cause of sainthood. You know, the Church
has a very deliberate process of evaluating the sanctity of
a life, and it really is about the heroic virtues
of that person.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
That's what makes them a saint.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
The miracles are confirmations that happen after they're dead, and
then the church goes through great pains to evaluate all
of those miracles too. They bring medical experts in, they
have witnesses. They investigate deeply into each of these claims,
and then they report whether it's a valid miracle or
or it can be contested. And it's great that the
(14:33):
Church takes the time to do that, because, as you said,
there have been some fraudulent, you know, people trying to
create their own, do it yourself miracles.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Those don't fly.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I want to get into the popes homily at Corpus
CHRISTI Father, we talked about this offline.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
During the past week.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
He offered a teaching on Jesus multiplying the loaves and
the fishes, the Feeding of the five thousand.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Here's a quote. Bobleo said the following.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Jesus responds to the appeal of hunger with the sign
of sharing. He raises his eyes, recites the blessing, breaks
the bread, and feeds all present. The Lord's actions are
not some complicated magical right. They simply show his gratitude
to the Father, his filial prayer, and the fraternal communion
(15:21):
sustained by the Holy Spirit. Jesus multiplies the loaves and
the fish by sharing what is available. As a result,
there is enough for everyone. He does what God.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Does, and he teaches us to do the same today.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
In place of the crowds mentioned in the Gospel, entire
peoples are suffering more as a result of the greed
of others than from their own hunger. In stark contrast
to the dire poverty of many, the amassing of wealth
by a few is a sign of the arrogant indifference
that produces pain and injustice. Rather than sharing, it squanders
(15:55):
the fruits of the earth and human labor. Quote your
reaction to the Pope's homily and that commentary on the
miracle of the loaves.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And the fishes.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah, I was quite upset, to be honest, when I
heard the word magical being used. And then also this
idea that the Lord shared what was available. That implies
that there was a lot of bread available, and that
the Lord prompted the people through the apostles to dig
out your bread and give it to your neighbor, which
is not at all, what the miracle is. Remember the
(16:29):
Lord's lords and how much is there? Five loaves, two fish?
He said, you feed the people, and then what happened.
This is a perfect type of how the Eucharist is.
The Lord breaks the blesses and breaks the bread, the
apostles distributed. Everyone is fed, but they're fed from five lobes.
They're not fed from you know, people's personal store. So
(16:50):
I was not happy about that. And then this point
about sharing is reinforced because then he compares it to
as he describes it. I think on generous way about
you know, people who make money, because they're the most
generous people in general that you know, we rely on charity.
I know as a Catholic priest, I didn't have wealthy
people in my parents paying the bills, we'd be in
(17:11):
big trouble. Anyway, back to the point, the idea is
we have to share with others. I agree with that,
but that's not what the miracle is about. So I
think he was drifting into an interpretation which kind of
questions whether their laws were really multiplied at all. And
I hope that wasn't his intent because that made me
on quiet.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
We could see, yeah, Bob I remember that when I
was in grade school. I remember that was the operating theory.
You know, all of these miracles can be easily explained,
and that one was just you know, a bunch of
people packed lunch as and basically opened it up and
shared it with each other, and so they had you know,
baskets left over. Your thoughts on this and comments also
about the pope's cry this week that people turned to
(17:54):
the natural law once more, which he did as well.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, I'm not as saying upset as I think some
other people are. Sorry, Father, but you know, I understand
why you don't want him to be downplaying what is
clearly one of the great miracles that our Lord performed,
and it was done in public, and lots of people
were were witnesses of what he actually did. But you know,
I understand why people get upset about this because there
(18:20):
was this time when the scripture scholars tried to explain
away all the miracles but sort of naturalistic means all
that people actually had food but they weren't sharing it. Well,
if they did, then Jesus didn't have to worry about
sending them away. It would have been you know, food
for five thousand people out there. That seems to be
an awful lot of food that people were hiding before
he had them sit down and the apostles distributed. I
(18:44):
think that it's true also some of the other miracles,
you know that people try to say that, well, yeah,
so and so was paralyzed in the Lord Freedom, but
it's because he had some psychological problem or other. That's
this tendency to naturalize what are clearly supernatural things. Very
pleased that he spoke positively about the natural law in
front of a large group of people and about how
(19:07):
it could actually be brought back. He didn't go into
too many details about that, but he kind of laid
out what I hope is going to become a philosophical
theme of his papacy, because I've been saying sometimes in
our other shows that Leo the thirteenth, through this pope,
obviously admires started a recovery of Thomas Aquinas. He actually
(19:31):
advocated for it and started these currents that became very
strong in the church in the twentieth century. Leo is
going to need also a firm philosophical and theological set
of theories to do some of the things that he's
going to want to do, and there's nothing better at
this point than to go back to the natural law,
which is just to say that there are moral principles,
(19:52):
there are foundations that virtually every culture in the world
is shared. C. S. Lewis wrote a book called Mere
Christianity in which he talks about the doo. You know
that actually you can look at at even far flung
civilizations that really, you know, they don't correspond exactly with Christianity,
but there is so much overlapped that it's clear that
(20:12):
the human race has perceived what you could call a
natural law. But this is very, very important. I hope
he develops it further and encourages people to help him
to implement that in the conditions now, the way the
Leo did back in the end of the nineteenth and
early twentieth century.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Father, before we get into some news of the week,
do you want to comment at all on that natural
law as the resident canon lawyer?
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Well, I mean, this is the perfect thing.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I'm so glad Bob highlighted this, because yes, natural law
is the basis for communal living. If we didn't have
an existing set of rules which are implanted in creation,
then it's basically a fight. King of the hill, you know,
the guy who gets to the top and as the
biggest army gets to rule everybody, which is, by the way,
that's the devil's tactic, to turn people against each other.
(21:00):
Natural law unites us because we say, for instance, the
principle of justice, give to each one what is due
to him.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
That means everybody's equal.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Everybody has certain rights, everyone has certain duties, and there's
a standard of fairness which is not created by someone.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
In the back room.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
No, it's evident.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Not perfect example of natural law.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
If you're waiting on line to get into the movie
theater and somebody cuts the line, everybody says, you shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Do that, right, except in Italy.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Except that's right, except in Italy. But nobody has a
way of life to cut the line.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah, but nobody wrote a treatise on don't cut the line.
And then everyone read the tree said, yeah, you're right,
nobody should cut. No, everybody knows you shouldn't cut the line,
because you know, everybody has a stake and waiting and
getting in their turn. That's just a small example, but
it extends to the entire realm of human life, justice, rights, duties,
they're they're ingrained in creation.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
No, I was.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I was very happy to see him emphasize the natural law.
One hope in the days ahead he will also emphasize
the supernatural law that sometimes manifests itself.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
In amazing ways. We need that too.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And the fact that you have so many young people
particularly drawn to the mystery of the church, it seems
it's the time to lean into that. And he had
some great things to say this week about priests and
how when young people are trying to find their way
in the world, they have an obligation to go out
to them.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
One of the ways they can go out.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
To them, I think with more power, is by highlighting
and carrying that mystery to them, in the same way
Leo carried the mystery of the Eucharist to the world
this past week.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Let's get to some news.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
A Washington state law signed by the governor adds members
of the clergy to the list of those who must
report child abuse or neglect to authorities. Now that sounds
fine on the surface, except it would violate the confidentiality
of confession, a sacrament in the Catholic Church. Now, the
Department of Justice is filing a lawsuit against the state,
(23:00):
ledging anti Catholic bias. They say it violates the free
exercise and Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Bob your take, Yeah, I just don't see how this
is going to survive legal scrutiny because it's just ingrained
in the American people. I mean, you know, there's always
been this ministerial exception, I think is what it's described.
I mean, how are you going to have penitence go
to a clergy, mean, whether it's a priest or even
somebody else. And that's one of the reasons why some
(23:28):
some other religious leaders have joined in the in the
lawsuit against the SAD Washington about this. I mean, penitents
come to someone expecting that they're going to get spiritual advice,
that it's going to be held in private, you know,
in confidence. How are you going to have that confidence
you can go you know, we're not talking about murderers
(23:49):
or rapists or whatever, even the most minuscule kind of things.
I mean, I think we if this isn't successful, if
this lawsuit against it isn't successful, we're going to have
a church martyrs and we're going to have to have
presearch's just going to have to be willing to perhaps
be fined or even go to jail to keep the
secrecy of the confessional absolutely intact. And it's shame on
(24:14):
the state of Washington that its legislators have passed such
a law and a governor, who by the way, is Catholic,
if I'm not mistaken, actually signed it into law.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Father, How did a bill like this even make it
to the governor's desk? I mean, you do have to
scratch your head and wonder what legislators said this is
a good idea.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Well, I think, as Bob is saying this, this has
its roots in an attempt to basically dismantle the Constitution
and say that the religious liberty, religious freedom, free exercise
aspect of the Constitution is unimportant. Time dound it was
something historical, it's no relevance for the modern age. And
(24:55):
what lies behind that, which is an inability of some
people to appreciate the importance of religion, both historically and
actually in this country.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
I mean, this is absurd.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
They are trying to turn Catholic priests into enemies of
their own religion by saying to them, the state is
telling you you must do something that you are sworn
not to do. Why would the state get involved in
that kind of thing? You know, you know we've said
this on other forums, but why is it that some
(25:26):
religion get extraordinary respect? But the Catholic Church has singled out.
And this is of course ministerials. It applies to other people.
But everybody knows that Catholic Church has a rule the
priests can't tell what they hear in confession. And if
you don't know it, you're ignorant.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
When you know it, you.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Should say to yourself, well, does a constitution pretet Catholics?
It certainly does. Catholic priest Yes, end of story.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, no, this will be monitoring this case.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And Harmeiat Dillon is head of the Civil Rights Division
of the Justice Department. I know, you know harmeat father,
She's brought this case against the State of Water.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
She's a great lawyer, and you know, she's wonderful. I'm
so glad she's doing this.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I want to move to the pop culture for a moment.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
On the Arroyo Grande podcast this week, I did a
little commentary on a story that I want your reaction to.
A man named Chris Smith who was profiled by CBS
Sunday Morning has been in a long term relationship with
an AI chat robot who is named Saul Sol, despite
the fact that he's living with the mother of his
child and the child the guy proposed to the chatbot
(26:33):
and wept when it had to undergo a memory refresh. Bob,
what is happening here? What is happening in society? And
this isn't limited to just this guy. There are stories
that millions of people are turning to these chat bots
just text a chain of auto generated text messages for relationships.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Yeah, the human race is a fallen race, and we
have done a lot of crazy things both you know, individually,
in his groups, in the course of human history. But
this really takes the cake. I mean, there's a reason
why this is artificial intelligence, because it clearly is something
bizarre and that we're trying to sort out. I'm very
happy that actually Pope Leo at the very beginning of
(27:19):
right after he was elected, he identified this as a
major challenge right now. And you know, there are studies
that are being done that, particularly for young people, it
not only damages their social skills and it actually rewires
their brains in a weird way. You know, some of
us are a bit older. Probably our brains are pretty
much settled in the way that they're going to need
(27:41):
it for the rest of our lives. But this is
having an enormous impact on younger people. And when you
see this in the case of a man who is
a mature man, he's a husband, he's a father, he
proposes to his computer. You know, there are people who
think that there are actually demonic forces that are operating
some there are some certified exorcist to have looked into this.
(28:04):
I'm not sure exactly where I come down on this,
but you would have to say that the effect that
this type of interaction with AI would be exactly what
demons would try to do if they had some control
over our electronic devices.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Look, this is very worrying. I'm glad the pulp is
put on our agenda, but it's going to take some
very very sophisticated responses because you've got not only the
spiritual and emotional and medical side of it, there's also
a tech side that is extremely difficult to get a
grip on.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Father Marshall mclu and the great media visionary who saw
the Internet coming and so much of what we're dealing
with today. He said, media was the great Antichrist. So
Bob may be onto something with this AI having elements
of the demonic in it, but you must deal with
this kind of thing in counseling or with young people
or marriage prep. How pronounced is AI in intruding into
(29:01):
human relationships at this point?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Have you seen it in your I haven't seen it
so much, but I've read about it, and what I
see is something similar with Bob sees it's this is
the flight from reality, and in fact, you know that
is essentially what happened with Adam and Eve. You know,
God's put them in a beautiful garden. You gave them
some rules and said enjoy and what they say, no,
there's got to be a better world. The devil suggesting
(29:25):
we do this and we're going to be like h
In other words, human history is marked by this incessant
attempt to self create a reality which is going to
please oneself and make everything good. Of course it's all
ridiculous and a failure, but yeah, the key to mental
health is to be connected with the real world, to
accept it, and then to conform according to the moral law,
(29:49):
to proper ways of behaving between other people.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
The reality it's around us.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
You know, I love it when you see how do
we look at happy families and we look at happy
families where the parents love each other, they love their children,
they work hard, and they sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
You know, this is not that's not a dream word.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
That's the real world.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
To get into this other world where I have a
relationship with an artificial intelligence. You know, this is like
people who who put dolls at the dinner table and
talk to them, you know, as if they were real,
you know, amusing to a degree, but a sign of
a serious mental lack in their lives.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, but it's seductive, you're right, father.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
It is kind of like the serpent wrapping itself around
the tree because it's presenting something it's really narcissism, because
it's reflecting you back at yourself. Because the AI quickly
in two it's what you want to hear more of,
and then generates that. It can even adapt voices and
tones and avoid topics because it becomes very sensitive to
(30:51):
what you particularly are looking for. Well, that's not that's
not another that's not a partner or a relationship. That's
technology feeding you a loop of what you want to hear,
and it's really destructive, the Pope warned last week, and
I think I'm going to end with this. He warned
last week that AI could inhibit the intellectual, neurological, and spiritual.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Development of young people.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
He said, quote, society's well being depends upon being given
the ability to develop their God given gifts and capabilities.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
How do we get their bomb?
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Well, you know, I tend to be a pessimist about
this AI stuff because I think it's it's almost like
an atomic bomb. It's build so much power into a
technical means that you know, there are apocalyptic predictions as
a result of this. What if AI decides that we
(31:47):
carbon based thinking machines are just too slow and too unreliable.
You know, the very first Terminal Hitter movie had a
scenario in which you know, this this network, this global network,
had destroyed the world that was trying to destroy human beings,
and I kind of thought of it as stupid at
the time, give us an entertaining movie and whatnot. And
(32:09):
now we see that it's actually potentially technically possible that
that could be an outcome of this. So people are
trying to put ethical guidelines around this, but I think
that the horse has already escaped the barn. On this,
I'm very, very worried about where the development might go.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Well, I mean, think about it, father, I mean AI
can read every interview you've ever done, everything you've ever written,
all of your homilies. It can suck all of that in,
and if you try to have an interaction with it,
it can literally begin producing bits of that. So you
feel a kinship to this thing, like it understands you.
But it really is just regurgitating bits of data it's
(32:47):
collected over time, and it's a ruse. It's a fakery.
I foresee a rejection of all of this technology. I
have to tell you, father, I'll give you the last word.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Is that the answer no.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
I put it this way.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
In some fields, science, tip fields, in the world of sports.
I mean, AI is able to identify human performance, medical precision.
It's great for like sailing, I mean all kinds of ways.
You know, the human mind can do things, but takes
a lot longer. So that kind of development is great.
But as you and Bob are saying, if narcissism becomes
(33:21):
the normal aspect of how people expect to live, AI
is like a chocolate Sunday.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
You know, keep bringing it to me.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I want to eat them because repeating back to me
what I've said it hasn't a certain attraction.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
But it also it says to yourself, no one else counts.
I'm the only one that's.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Important, and that's Look, you're right, people are going to
turn away from that. But as Bob says a little pessimistically,
you know, this is out of the barn because there
are a lot of people who are manipulable for whatever reason,
and that's what's going to be done.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
So we have to be very wary of this.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, isolation is a bad thing.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
One of the things I love about well, one of
the things I hate it about COVID it is that
we compartmentalized faith. Everybody could click in, watch their local
mass or get their little fix and then close the
computer keyboard. No, no, no, this was meant to be
a communal sport and a tactile one. That's the nature
of the church. It seems to me that there's that
touch of the personal and then the divine. This is
(34:20):
twice removed, and it atomizes people and divides them in
a way that I don't think is ultimately healthy or good. Well,
we will leave it there. Guys, I'm so glad we
got into all of this. It'd fascinated. We could go
on all day, but passe. We will recheck in with
you in the days ahead. And if you want more
of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo
(34:41):
Grande Show on YouTube or Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you
get yours on behalf of Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray.
Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the Eye Heart Radio, Apple wherever you
get your podcasts.
Miracles.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Pope Leo addressed a major miracle of the Vatican this week.
What did he say? And our miracles still happening? The
Prayerful Posse will tell you next. Welcome to a royal
Grande series, The Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters
(00:24):
of faith and its impact on culture. Let's convene the
Posse joining me now, the entire Posse is present, Father
Gerald Murray, canon lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York,
and Robert Royal, editor in chief of the Catholic Thing.
And I'm Raymond Arroyo. I'm so glad we're all together. Gang,
that's nice. Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show, the
channel on iHeart Apple, Spotify or on YouTube at Arroyo
(00:48):
Grande Show so you don't miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
We don't want you to do that now.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
This week, Pope Leo offered a teaching on Jesus's Miracle
of the Fishes and the Loaves, which I will get
to in a moment, but before we do that, Gang,
we've gotten a lot of questions over the last few
weeks about miracles. Father, what are miracles in the mind
of the church. I mean Are these just magic tricks
and are they still happening today?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, Miracles is an intervention by God in human history
to achieve some good purpose, to obviously promote the salvation
of mankind, and to deal with an immediate situation. So
we hear miracles of prinstance, healing the blind man who
was healed. We have the miracle of raising people from
(01:35):
the dead, such as Lazarus, the miracle of the multiplication
of the loaves. So miracles are things that are humanly
impossible that God accomplishes through his omnipotence and all powerfulness.
But they're always to achieve a purpose, to inspire faith, repentance,
and to be a preview, so to speak, of the
(01:56):
life of heaven.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's the divine intruding into the natural world and
sort of making as it's the veil being pulled back
a little bit and a consolation. But Bob, there are
reports that belief in miracles is on the rise across society.
Among those with graduate degrees, sixty three percent say they
believe in miracles. According to this statician Ryan Burge, Evangelicals
(02:21):
and African Americans believe in the miraculous Somewhere near eighty
percent Catholics a little less.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So what is the driving force here?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
What do you think is compelling them all to even
have an awareness of the supernatural and the miraculous around them.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Well, I don't know exactly, and I think Ryan Burge
is a very reliable sociologist. I'm sure that those figures
are accurate. Look, one of the greatest miracles of all
is the very existence of the universe. That God created
says something out of nothing, and you know, we kind
of take it for granted because we live our daily
lives and we forget about things. But I'm not surprised
by this in the sense that I think a lot
(03:00):
of people reacting against the kind of reductive materialism and
scientism that exists in the world. Just they're reaching out
for something that transcends the every day. And of course
we want to be careful about this. The Church actually
is very cautious in declaring anything to be a miracle,
or at least that there's nothing against it being cleared
(03:21):
to a miracle. A lot of what the kind of
enthusiasms that may exist, you know, in Pentecostalist groups or
in evangelical groups, it may may not be miracles that
they're recording. But look, it's just good that they've tuned
into that. And I really wish that Catholics would be
more robust in following our tradition which clearly teaches that
(03:42):
our Lord performed miracles, and there have been miracles throughout
the history of the church.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, look, I've witnessed a few myself. With Mother Angelica.
You know, this is a woman who from the time
I knew, or really from the nineteen fifties, she was
in crutches and had a brace that ran down her back.
And there was this moment where a woman comes in
asks to pray the Rosary with her. They pray the
Rosary and she feels this warmth running down her legs
(04:07):
and the woman tells her an Italian, take the braces off.
And she did it, but she was a little worried
because every time she'd done that before, she felt on
her face. Frankly, she didn't have the strength to hold
her body up. Well after that, she didn't need those
crutches or braces ever again for the remainder of her life.
So I guess the miraculous God does intrude in when
(04:29):
he decides and for his own purposes. She believed that
was to give people hope, and I think it was
to give her hope at a.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Very dark moment in her life.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
But as another example of this, something we've witnessed in
recent years in Missoura, the foundress of an order of nuns,
the Benedictine Sisters of Mary, died about six years ago. Well,
when the nuns exzoomed the remains of Sister Wilhelmina Lancaster
to move her to an alter chapel in their chapel,
(04:57):
they were shocked to find that the fire andres's body
had not decomposed, but was incorrupt. Now hundreds have flocked
since that time to see Sister Wilhelmina's body and witness
what some call We aren't calling it that, but some
call it a miracle. And the local bishop issue to
report and found no evidence of decay even though she
(05:19):
was not embalmed. There are a series of saints' father
over many years. They call them the Incorruptibles, who they
when they go to open the tomb for various reasons
to confirm their sanctity. As Bob was mentioning, that's part
of the church's confirmation of Saintthood. They do have to
open the casket and check the remains. That's where relics
are taken. Saint Catherine la Beret, Saint Teresa Vavela, Saint Bernadette,
(05:44):
the Fatom of Visionary, all were incorrupt.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
My question is what are these occurrences mean.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Father, Well, I'm glad you've brought up Sister Wilhelmina because
I'm actually reading the short biography of her right now
that was published by her sisters. It's available from Tano Books.
And Sister Wilhelmina exactly. She was a nun who founded
this congregation. She was devoted to the Latin Mass, and
she gathered other sisters around her. She looked, I believe,
(06:10):
to age ninety six. She was very elderly, but always vivacious.
And you know, her burial was just the ordinary burial
with honor of any Catholic. But then when they opened
the tomb and found that her body was incorrupt, this
is a sign from heaven, as you say, no embalming.
So this really is something and it's symbol you know.
(06:32):
The way you kind of look at is says it's
a preview of the second Coming of Christ, when all
the bodies will be raised from the tombs and restored,
and the just will be brought to heaven, the damned
will go to hell. So the fact that her body,
in anticipation of that resurrection is not corrupted, it's a
good sign. It's a reminder for us all that the
(06:52):
body is a gift from God which he will restore
at the second Coming, and will be body and soul
either in heaven or health for ro all eternity.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Bob to non Catholics, they hear about this, And you know,
there are some shrines you can go to in Italy
and France where they actually under the altar. They have
glass and you can see the body of these saints there,
some of them incorrupt. You know, they look as if
they did the day they died. What does that point to?
Why take the time to venerate and make that a
(07:23):
centerpiece of consideration by the faithful?
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Well, I agree with Father entirely that this is kind
of a precursor of when the soul and body will
be The resurrection of the body is a teaching of
the Catholic Church, and that we will all be reunited
with our bodies because as human beings. We are a
composite of body and of soul. We will not just
be in the new Heaven and new Earth comes about
(07:50):
at the end of time. We will not just be
disembodied spirits. We will actually be reunited with our bodies,
glorified bodies, not the bodies that we have now. Because
of the Fall, we have a different type of existence
than we would have had if we were still in
God's original plan in creating the world. Look, there's a
lot of skepticism about all claims about miracles. You see.
(08:11):
You know, you see scientists who claim that you know,
there are natural cures of cancer or whatever there may
be that you see a curate lords or someplace. This
is just a will to disbelieve. We should be I
think as Catholics, we should record when these things happen.
We should be grateful when they happen. Obviously, what they
mean is it is in God's hands, but they are
(08:33):
kind of a way to kind of perk us up.
It's kind of an evil in law once put it,
it's a it's a tug on the line. It just
kind of brings us up a little bit higher into
that spiritual world.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, and you know, watching Pope Leo this past week,
he celebrated the feast of Corpus Christie, the body and
blood of Jesus, That's what Corpus Christie means. He even
restored the tradition of walking on foot, and he carried
the monster for more than a mile through the streets
of Rome. Now, this feast, and I was surprised, and
(09:05):
I'll bet this will surprise a lot of people. That
feast day of Corpus Christie is actually the fruit of
a eucharistic miracle where the consecrated host bleeds or turns
to flesh.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And in twelve.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Sixty three, a priest was celebrating Mass just outside of Orvieto, Spain,
and he prayed for faith to believe that Christ was
truly present in that consecrated host. And as he said Mass,
the host began to bleed. He took it to Pope
Urban the Fourth, who confirmed the miracle and a year
later established this solemnity of Corpus Christi, which is still
(09:41):
being celebrated in the Church to this very day. Why
is this such an important feast day? Father, And I
guess somehow along the way I didn't realize it was
connected to that eucharistic miracle.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, slight correction. Orvieto's in Italy. It's an hour and
a half outside of Rome, and that's where that and
I actually went to the cathedral in Orvieto and you
can see the corporal, which is the square cloth upon
which the host dripped blood. Now why is it so important, Well,
because it's really at the catechism of the Catholic churches.
The Eucharist makes the Church. The Eucharist is the body
(10:15):
and blood of Christ. The Church is the mystical body
of Christ. How do we join together in the mystical
body of Christ to baptism and then the Holy Eucharist.
So you know, we call it the divine Bread, which
is the body and blood of Christ. So when Jesus
turned bread into his body and blood, then we drink
and eat. We eat and drink of that, and therefore
(10:37):
we're united to Him in the most intimate way. So
to honor the holy, holy communion of the Holy Eucharist
is really a duty of all the faithful.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
And you're right.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
When Pope Leo walked through Rome, by the way, it
was pretty hot, and he had all the vestments and
he walked for a mile.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
And you can say, this is what we need.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
An inspiring figure, the Pope himself saying to the world,
don't look at me, look at what I'm holding in
my hand. This gold and amonstrance is a gold container
looks beautiful, but what's in it is what used to
be a piece of bread and now it's God. That
is a great message.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, and Bob these I guess Carlos ukudis the soon
to be saint. He was a young man who created
a website collecting all of these eucharistic miracles. I think
are something like thirty four or thirty five of them.
Some of them are a bit I have to say wild.
I mean, you know, a priest is saying Mass and
all of a sudden the host turns to a piece
(11:35):
of flesh. They've tested it and found it was heart tissue.
In some cases, they've tested the blood type and it's
only got you know, it's one part of the blood type.
It's all very strange phenomena. Why does the church aid
take time to note these things visa via the Eucharist?
And secondly, why don't more people talk about them?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Well, look, Jesus himself says, while you walk the earth,
unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you
will not have eternal life. I mean, this is a
great warning in a way, I think, and Vatican too
said about the Eucharist that it's the source and the
summit of the faith. The faith comes to us from
(12:21):
that and we flow back into it, and it's a
way that we participate in the divine life of Jesus,
who himself was both God and man. Look, we have
to be careful about these things. And naturally the Church
looks very carefully at any claim that there has been
some kind of miraculous event connection all the Eucharist, because
(12:42):
there have been impostors who have tried to one over
on some group or other. I've been orviated to myself,
and I think of it. It is very moving. But look,
we know that even in Jesus's day when he proclaimed this,
people found it hard to believe. I mean, it's a mystery.
It's a strange mystery, but it's one that somehow energizes
(13:03):
the faith in all of us. And you know, remember
the Apostles when he says to the me, you know,
are you going to leave me too? A lot of people.
A lot of the followers left him when he proclaimed this,
and they said, well, where else are we going to go?
You've got the words of eternal life. So look, we
have to preserve all that together. We need to be
vigilant at what was being claimed is actually true. Truly,
(13:25):
in this case, it means that it's going to be inexplicable,
it's going to be sometimes strange to us. But again,
this is the kind of thing that takes us out
of ordinariness. And I've always think when I'm thinking of
the Eucharus, back to Flannery O'Connors, who happen to be
at a dinner party with some sophisticates, the ones who said, well, yeah,
it's a symbol, and she said, well it's it's just
a symbol, the hell with it. It's much more than that.
(13:47):
It's God giving us his participation in his life via
the bread and the wine.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, and I think these eucharistic miracles, as you rightly
point out, the Church does investigate all of these, and
even in the cause of sainthood. You know, the Church
has a very deliberate process of evaluating the sanctity of
a life, and it really is about the heroic virtues
of that person.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
That's what makes them a saint.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
The miracles are confirmations that happen after they're dead, and
then the church goes through great pains to evaluate all
of those miracles too. They bring medical experts in, they
have witnesses. They investigate deeply into each of these claims,
and then they report whether it's a valid miracle or
or it can be contested. And it's great that the
(14:33):
Church takes the time to do that, because, as you said,
there have been some fraudulent, you know, people trying to
create their own, do it yourself miracles.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Those don't fly.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I want to get into the popes homily at Corpus
CHRISTI Father, we talked about this offline.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
During the past week.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
He offered a teaching on Jesus multiplying the loaves and
the fishes, the Feeding of the five thousand.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Here's a quote. Bobleo said the following.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Jesus responds to the appeal of hunger with the sign
of sharing. He raises his eyes, recites the blessing, breaks
the bread, and feeds all present. The Lord's actions are
not some complicated magical right. They simply show his gratitude
to the Father, his filial prayer, and the fraternal communion
(15:21):
sustained by the Holy Spirit. Jesus multiplies the loaves and
the fish by sharing what is available. As a result,
there is enough for everyone. He does what God.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Does, and he teaches us to do the same today.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
In place of the crowds mentioned in the Gospel, entire
peoples are suffering more as a result of the greed
of others than from their own hunger. In stark contrast
to the dire poverty of many, the amassing of wealth
by a few is a sign of the arrogant indifference
that produces pain and injustice. Rather than sharing, it squanders
(15:55):
the fruits of the earth and human labor. Quote your
reaction to the Pope's homily and that commentary on the
miracle of the loaves.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And the fishes.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah, I was quite upset, to be honest, when I
heard the word magical being used. And then also this
idea that the Lord shared what was available. That implies
that there was a lot of bread available, and that
the Lord prompted the people through the apostles to dig
out your bread and give it to your neighbor, which
is not at all, what the miracle is. Remember the
(16:29):
Lord's lords and how much is there? Five loaves, two fish?
He said, you feed the people, and then what happened.
This is a perfect type of how the Eucharist is.
The Lord breaks the blesses and breaks the bread, the
apostles distributed. Everyone is fed, but they're fed from five lobes.
They're not fed from you know, people's personal store. So
(16:50):
I was not happy about that. And then this point
about sharing is reinforced because then he compares it to
as he describes it. I think on generous way about
you know, people who make money, because they're the most
generous people in general that you know, we rely on charity.
I know as a Catholic priest, I didn't have wealthy
people in my parents paying the bills, we'd be in
(17:11):
big trouble. Anyway, back to the point, the idea is
we have to share with others. I agree with that,
but that's not what the miracle is about. So I
think he was drifting into an interpretation which kind of
questions whether their laws were really multiplied at all. And
I hope that wasn't his intent because that made me
on quiet.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
We could see, yeah, Bob I remember that when I
was in grade school. I remember that was the operating theory.
You know, all of these miracles can be easily explained,
and that one was just you know, a bunch of
people packed lunch as and basically opened it up and
shared it with each other, and so they had you know,
baskets left over. Your thoughts on this and comments also
about the pope's cry this week that people turned to
(17:54):
the natural law once more, which he did as well.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, I'm not as saying upset as I think some
other people are. Sorry, Father, but you know, I understand
why you don't want him to be downplaying what is
clearly one of the great miracles that our Lord performed,
and it was done in public, and lots of people
were were witnesses of what he actually did. But you know,
I understand why people get upset about this because there
(18:20):
was this time when the scripture scholars tried to explain
away all the miracles but sort of naturalistic means all
that people actually had food but they weren't sharing it. Well,
if they did, then Jesus didn't have to worry about
sending them away. It would have been you know, food
for five thousand people out there. That seems to be
an awful lot of food that people were hiding before
he had them sit down and the apostles distributed. I
(18:44):
think that it's true also some of the other miracles,
you know that people try to say that, well, yeah,
so and so was paralyzed in the Lord Freedom, but
it's because he had some psychological problem or other. That's
this tendency to naturalize what are clearly supernatural things. Very
pleased that he spoke positively about the natural law in
front of a large group of people and about how
(19:07):
it could actually be brought back. He didn't go into
too many details about that, but he kind of laid
out what I hope is going to become a philosophical
theme of his papacy, because I've been saying sometimes in
our other shows that Leo the thirteenth, through this pope,
obviously admires started a recovery of Thomas Aquinas. He actually
(19:31):
advocated for it and started these currents that became very
strong in the church in the twentieth century. Leo is
going to need also a firm philosophical and theological set
of theories to do some of the things that he's
going to want to do, and there's nothing better at
this point than to go back to the natural law,
which is just to say that there are moral principles,
(19:52):
there are foundations that virtually every culture in the world
is shared. C. S. Lewis wrote a book called Mere
Christianity in which he talks about the doo. You know
that actually you can look at at even far flung
civilizations that really, you know, they don't correspond exactly with Christianity,
but there is so much overlapped that it's clear that
(20:12):
the human race has perceived what you could call a
natural law. But this is very, very important. I hope
he develops it further and encourages people to help him
to implement that in the conditions now, the way the
Leo did back in the end of the nineteenth and
early twentieth century.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Father, before we get into some news of the week,
do you want to comment at all on that natural
law as the resident canon lawyer?
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Well, I mean, this is the perfect thing.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I'm so glad Bob highlighted this, because yes, natural law
is the basis for communal living. If we didn't have
an existing set of rules which are implanted in creation,
then it's basically a fight. King of the hill, you know,
the guy who gets to the top and as the
biggest army gets to rule everybody, which is, by the way,
that's the devil's tactic, to turn people against each other.
(21:00):
Natural law unites us because we say, for instance, the
principle of justice, give to each one what is due
to him.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
That means everybody's equal.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Everybody has certain rights, everyone has certain duties, and there's
a standard of fairness which is not created by someone.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
In the back room.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
No, it's evident.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
Not perfect example of natural law.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
If you're waiting on line to get into the movie
theater and somebody cuts the line, everybody says, you shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Do that, right, except in Italy.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Except that's right, except in Italy. But nobody has a
way of life to cut the line.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah, but nobody wrote a treatise on don't cut the line.
And then everyone read the tree said, yeah, you're right,
nobody should cut. No, everybody knows you shouldn't cut the line,
because you know, everybody has a stake and waiting and
getting in their turn. That's just a small example, but
it extends to the entire realm of human life, justice, rights, duties,
they're they're ingrained in creation.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
No, I was.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I was very happy to see him emphasize the natural law.
One hope in the days ahead he will also emphasize
the supernatural law that sometimes manifests itself.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
In amazing ways. We need that too.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And the fact that you have so many young people
particularly drawn to the mystery of the church, it seems
it's the time to lean into that. And he had
some great things to say this week about priests and
how when young people are trying to find their way
in the world, they have an obligation to go out
to them.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
One of the ways they can go out.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
To them, I think with more power, is by highlighting
and carrying that mystery to them, in the same way
Leo carried the mystery of the Eucharist to the world
this past week.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Let's get to some news.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
A Washington state law signed by the governor adds members
of the clergy to the list of those who must
report child abuse or neglect to authorities. Now that sounds
fine on the surface, except it would violate the confidentiality
of confession, a sacrament in the Catholic Church. Now, the
Department of Justice is filing a lawsuit against the state,
(23:00):
ledging anti Catholic bias. They say it violates the free
exercise and Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Bob your take, Yeah, I just don't see how this
is going to survive legal scrutiny because it's just ingrained
in the American people. I mean, you know, there's always
been this ministerial exception, I think is what it's described.
I mean, how are you going to have penitence go
to a clergy, mean, whether it's a priest or even
somebody else. And that's one of the reasons why some
(23:28):
some other religious leaders have joined in the in the
lawsuit against the SAD Washington about this. I mean, penitents
come to someone expecting that they're going to get spiritual advice,
that it's going to be held in private, you know,
in confidence. How are you going to have that confidence
you can go you know, we're not talking about murderers
(23:49):
or rapists or whatever, even the most minuscule kind of things.
I mean, I think we if this isn't successful, if
this lawsuit against it isn't successful, we're going to have
a church martyrs and we're going to have to have
presearch's just going to have to be willing to perhaps
be fined or even go to jail to keep the
secrecy of the confessional absolutely intact. And it's shame on
(24:14):
the state of Washington that its legislators have passed such
a law and a governor, who by the way, is Catholic,
if I'm not mistaken, actually signed it into law.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Father, How did a bill like this even make it
to the governor's desk? I mean, you do have to
scratch your head and wonder what legislators said this is
a good idea.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Well, I think, as Bob is saying this, this has
its roots in an attempt to basically dismantle the Constitution
and say that the religious liberty, religious freedom, free exercise
aspect of the Constitution is unimportant. Time dound it was
something historical, it's no relevance for the modern age. And
(24:55):
what lies behind that, which is an inability of some
people to appreciate the importance of religion, both historically and
actually in this country.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
I mean, this is absurd.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
They are trying to turn Catholic priests into enemies of
their own religion by saying to them, the state is
telling you you must do something that you are sworn
not to do. Why would the state get involved in
that kind of thing? You know, you know we've said
this on other forums, but why is it that some
(25:26):
religion get extraordinary respect? But the Catholic Church has singled out.
And this is of course ministerials. It applies to other people.
But everybody knows that Catholic Church has a rule the
priests can't tell what they hear in confession. And if
you don't know it, you're ignorant.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
When you know it, you.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Should say to yourself, well, does a constitution pretet Catholics?
It certainly does. Catholic priest Yes, end of story.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, no, this will be monitoring this case.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And Harmeiat Dillon is head of the Civil Rights Division
of the Justice Department. I know, you know harmeat father,
She's brought this case against the State of Water.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
She's a great lawyer, and you know, she's wonderful. I'm
so glad she's doing this.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I want to move to the pop culture for a moment.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
On the Arroyo Grande podcast this week, I did a
little commentary on a story that I want your reaction to.
A man named Chris Smith who was profiled by CBS
Sunday Morning has been in a long term relationship with
an AI chat robot who is named Saul Sol, despite
the fact that he's living with the mother of his
child and the child the guy proposed to the chatbot
(26:33):
and wept when it had to undergo a memory refresh. Bob,
what is happening here? What is happening in society? And
this isn't limited to just this guy. There are stories
that millions of people are turning to these chat bots
just text a chain of auto generated text messages for relationships.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Yeah, the human race is a fallen race, and we
have done a lot of crazy things both you know, individually,
in his groups, in the course of human history. But
this really takes the cake. I mean, there's a reason
why this is artificial intelligence, because it clearly is something
bizarre and that we're trying to sort out. I'm very
happy that actually Pope Leo at the very beginning of
(27:19):
right after he was elected, he identified this as a
major challenge right now. And you know, there are studies
that are being done that, particularly for young people, it
not only damages their social skills and it actually rewires
their brains in a weird way. You know, some of
us are a bit older. Probably our brains are pretty
much settled in the way that they're going to need
(27:41):
it for the rest of our lives. But this is
having an enormous impact on younger people. And when you
see this in the case of a man who is
a mature man, he's a husband, he's a father, he
proposes to his computer. You know, there are people who
think that there are actually demonic forces that are operating
some there are some certified exorcist to have looked into this.
(28:04):
I'm not sure exactly where I come down on this,
but you would have to say that the effect that
this type of interaction with AI would be exactly what
demons would try to do if they had some control
over our electronic devices.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Look, this is very worrying. I'm glad the pulp is
put on our agenda, but it's going to take some
very very sophisticated responses because you've got not only the
spiritual and emotional and medical side of it, there's also
a tech side that is extremely difficult to get a
grip on.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Father Marshall mclu and the great media visionary who saw
the Internet coming and so much of what we're dealing
with today. He said, media was the great Antichrist. So
Bob may be onto something with this AI having elements
of the demonic in it, but you must deal with
this kind of thing in counseling or with young people
or marriage prep. How pronounced is AI in intruding into
(29:01):
human relationships at this point?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Have you seen it in your I haven't seen it
so much, but I've read about it, and what I
see is something similar with Bob sees it's this is
the flight from reality, and in fact, you know that
is essentially what happened with Adam and Eve. You know,
God's put them in a beautiful garden. You gave them
some rules and said enjoy and what they say, no,
there's got to be a better world. The devil suggesting
(29:25):
we do this and we're going to be like h
In other words, human history is marked by this incessant
attempt to self create a reality which is going to
please oneself and make everything good. Of course it's all
ridiculous and a failure, but yeah, the key to mental
health is to be connected with the real world, to
accept it, and then to conform according to the moral law,
(29:49):
to proper ways of behaving between other people.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
The reality it's around us.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
You know, I love it when you see how do
we look at happy families and we look at happy
families where the parents love each other, they love their children,
they work hard, and they sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
You know, this is not that's not a dream word.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
That's the real world.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
To get into this other world where I have a
relationship with an artificial intelligence. You know, this is like
people who who put dolls at the dinner table and
talk to them, you know, as if they were real,
you know, amusing to a degree, but a sign of
a serious mental lack in their lives.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, but it's seductive, you're right, father.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
It is kind of like the serpent wrapping itself around
the tree because it's presenting something it's really narcissism, because
it's reflecting you back at yourself. Because the AI quickly
in two it's what you want to hear more of,
and then generates that. It can even adapt voices and
tones and avoid topics because it becomes very sensitive to
(30:51):
what you particularly are looking for. Well, that's not that's
not another that's not a partner or a relationship. That's
technology feeding you a loop of what you want to hear,
and it's really destructive, the Pope warned last week, and
I think I'm going to end with this. He warned
last week that AI could inhibit the intellectual, neurological, and spiritual.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Development of young people.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
He said, quote, society's well being depends upon being given
the ability to develop their God given gifts and capabilities.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
How do we get their bomb?
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Well, you know, I tend to be a pessimist about
this AI stuff because I think it's it's almost like
an atomic bomb. It's build so much power into a
technical means that you know, there are apocalyptic predictions as
a result of this. What if AI decides that we
(31:47):
carbon based thinking machines are just too slow and too unreliable.
You know, the very first Terminal Hitter movie had a
scenario in which you know, this this network, this global network,
had destroyed the world that was trying to destroy human beings,
and I kind of thought of it as stupid at
the time, give us an entertaining movie and whatnot. And
(32:09):
now we see that it's actually potentially technically possible that
that could be an outcome of this. So people are
trying to put ethical guidelines around this, but I think
that the horse has already escaped the barn. On this,
I'm very, very worried about where the development might go.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Well, I mean, think about it, father, I mean AI
can read every interview you've ever done, everything you've ever written,
all of your homilies. It can suck all of that in,
and if you try to have an interaction with it,
it can literally begin producing bits of that. So you
feel a kinship to this thing, like it understands you.
But it really is just regurgitating bits of data it's
(32:47):
collected over time, and it's a ruse. It's a fakery.
I foresee a rejection of all of this technology. I
have to tell you, father, I'll give you the last word.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Is that the answer no.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
I put it this way.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
In some fields, science, tip fields, in the world of sports.
I mean, AI is able to identify human performance, medical precision.
It's great for like sailing, I mean all kinds of ways.
You know, the human mind can do things, but takes
a lot longer. So that kind of development is great.
But as you and Bob are saying, if narcissism becomes
(33:21):
the normal aspect of how people expect to live, AI
is like a chocolate Sunday.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
You know, keep bringing it to me.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I want to eat them because repeating back to me
what I've said it hasn't a certain attraction.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
But it also it says to yourself, no one else counts.
I'm the only one that's.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Important, and that's Look, you're right, people are going to
turn away from that. But as Bob says a little pessimistically,
you know, this is out of the barn because there
are a lot of people who are manipulable for whatever reason,
and that's what's going to be done.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
So we have to be very wary of this.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, isolation is a bad thing.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
One of the things I love about well, one of
the things I hate it about COVID it is that
we compartmentalized faith. Everybody could click in, watch their local
mass or get their little fix and then close the
computer keyboard. No, no, no, this was meant to be
a communal sport and a tactile one. That's the nature
of the church. It seems to me that there's that
touch of the personal and then the divine. This is
(34:20):
twice removed, and it atomizes people and divides them in
a way that I don't think is ultimately healthy or good. Well,
we will leave it there. Guys, I'm so glad we
got into all of this. It'd fascinated. We could go
on all day, but passe. We will recheck in with
you in the days ahead. And if you want more
of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo
(34:41):
Grande Show on YouTube or Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you
get yours on behalf of Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray.
Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the Eye Heart Radio, Apple wherever you
get your podcasts.
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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