June 21, 2025 • 37 mins
This week on The Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo and Robert Royal analyze the impact of Pope Leo XIV’s newest bishop appointments—most notably, Bishop Shane Macklay as Archbishop of Brisbane. With public support for female ordination and involvement in the Vatican's synod on synodality, his selection raises important questions: Is Pope Leo signaling a progressive shift, or are we seeing a more complex strategy unfold?
The conversation widens to include other headline-making developments. The Diocese of Buffalo has asked parishes to contribute $80 million toward a sex abuse settlement—what does this mean for struggling Catholic communities? In Austria, a flourishing and traditional Cistercian abbey faces a Vatican visitation, sparking concerns about pressure on orthodox religious life. Meanwhile, a parish in Syracuse holds an LGBT Pride Mass featuring a transgender guest homilist, prompting debate about pastoral care versus Church teaching.
The Posse also reflects on Pope Leo’s public praise of sacred polyphony and chant, his emerging leadership style, and Cardinal Grech’s claim that a lack of vocations might be a blessing in disguise. Finally, they weigh in on a Hollywood Bowl production of Jesus Christ Superstar casting actress Cynthia Erivo as Jesus—and what that says about the state of culture and faith.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Pope Leo appointed a new Australian bishop with a controversial
track records. We'll tell you about him and is it
time for a female to play Jesus in a musical
at the Hollywood Bowl. The Prayerful Posse is assembly. Welcome
(00:24):
to this Arroyo Grande series, The Prayerful Posse, where we
dive into matters of faith and its impact on culture.
Let's convene the Posse. Joining us is Robert Royal, editor
in chief of the Catholic Thing dot Org. Father Jerry
Murray is outriding the plains, but we'll catch up with
him in the days they had. I'm Raymond Arroyo. Go
subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify
(00:46):
or on YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show. We don't want
you to miss an episode of the Posse. Bob We
said weeks ago the bishop appointments of Poplio would give
us a sense of his vision and a sense of
where this papacy is going.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Now, this week, Pope Leo appointed his first archbishop in
a major archdiocese in Australia. He named a second Australian
prelate this week as well. But Bishop Shane maclay will
be the new Archbishop of Brisbane, Australia. Now, McLay attended
the twenty twenty four Vaticans send It on sinidality. He
(01:24):
was chosen to help draft that final document, very controversial.
McLay is also publicly in favor of the ordination of
women to the diaconate as deacons and we can presume
the priesthood. Bob your thoughts on this appointment by a
pope who was formerly the head of the Dicastria bishops.
(01:45):
What does it tell us about the mind of Leo
the fourteenth and the direction of the church.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Well, that's a big question, Raymond, and I think we
need to look at this from several different directions because
on the one hand, we know that Leo has spoken against,
for example, LGBT, which this new archbishop seems to favor
at least ministering too. But the way he talks about
(02:10):
it is the way very often we hear Father James
Martin talk about him. That is, you know, we're faithful
to the tradition, but we're pastorally reaching out. And to me,
this kind of two step I think covers over the
fact that activists are perfectly happy to use this to
advance what is quite clearly not the orthodox teaching of
(02:31):
the Catholic Church. So that's one thing. The other thing
is that he has spoken very highly of the German
Sinatal way, which is a very very heterodox approach to
a whole bunch of different questions. And we know that
the Vatican, at least under Pope Francis, with whom Popelia
(02:55):
was very close, was very skeptical of what the Germans
were trying to do, thought of this as potentially schismatic.
So there are different parts to this. Now, he must
know this new archbishop very well, and maybe there are
other sides to when we hear that he's a good administrator,
is a very bright man who listens to people. But
this kind of mixture of a good figure with possibly
(03:19):
heterodox ideas I think might be something we'll see further.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
But we'll see.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Maybe this was an appointment that was already in the pipeline.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
He could certainly have said no.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
About it, but I'm not convinced that this is particularly
a strong sign. We'll have to just see where he
goes after this.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, there's some chatter online, and of course I've been
getting emails this week. Rememberabile, Back in May, Pope Leo
confirmed a father, beat Grogly as the bishop of San Gallen, Switzerland.
You remember that nomination. Now that was just a confirmation
because it's kind of an odd church pick, you know,
the local church has a hand in choosing that bishop.
But he too, this father soon to be bishop beat Grogli,
(04:03):
is also a supporter of female ordination, and people are saying,
wait a minute, this is worrisome. Is this the direction
we're going, that we're going to choose bishops who support
ordaining women to the diaconate or the priesthood. And I mean,
as you rightly pointed out early on Pravos, Pope Leo,
he said back in twenty twenty three, I'll give you
the quote here. I think we're all familiar with the
(04:25):
very significant and long tradition of the Church, and that
the Apostolic tradition is something that has been spelled out
very clearly, especially if you want to talk about the
question of women's ordination to the priesthood. So it seems
he is with the traditional church on this and the
church teaching and history.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, look, we need to distinguish here that the question
right now is female deaconesses. So there are people who
are in favor of this and present it as if
it is just a minor order that it doesn't. It
doesn't pretend the ordination of women as priests. But look,
(05:07):
we know how these things get going. There are snowballs
that start small and they sneak, if I can mix
my metaphors, they sneak the camel's nose under the tent,
and they become larger and larger until it just becomes inevitable. Now,
one of the other factors I think about this appointment
in Brisbane is that it was Cardinal uh Mark Coleridge
(05:29):
who preceded the new bishop. We met with Cardinal Coleridge
several times during the many synods that have taken place
over the past few years, and he always seemed to
me he's very well spoken, very smart, but he always
seemed to me to be on if I can put
it this way, the peripheries of dogma. He was kind
of always open to the next step and happy about advancing,
(05:54):
if you want to call it, this progressive kind kind
of moves within the church. So maybe he had an
influence about this appointment. It's certainly not a strong appointment
for people who are concerned about the orthodoxy of the church.
But I want to say again, we're still in the
early stages.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And there are different reasons. Look, we know that.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
John Paul is second appointed McCarrick, Bergoglio Cardinal Casper. So
even some of the pubs that we look up to
the most have kind of checkered records when it comes
to who they appoint. There may be multiple reasons why
they appoint some person, maybe somebody locally. But I want
(06:37):
to see I think I would like to see some
stronger movement on the part of Pope Leo. He's spoken
very strongly against LGBT. He's talked about how we shouldn't
be discussing genders that don't exist. He seems to be
very strong, as you rightly say, against the ordination of women.
But are the appointments We know that in a way
personnel or policy, we need to see some serious appointments
(07:02):
coming from him as well.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Well, that's what I always say. Look, watch people ask
me tell me about the pope. I said, well, watch
the appointments, see what he does. We did this in
our earliest show when we talked about Poplo see what
he does about the old Latin Mass, what does he
do about the China Deal? But appointments, the day to
day appointment of men who will spread throughout the world
and carry his vision of the church forward. That is,
(07:25):
it's beyond people or policy. It's really people are dogma,
People are the Church. This becomes the visible face of
what Catholicism is or will be in the conception of
the new pope. Now everybody wants to know who is
the new pope? Who is Poplo? And Argentinian Bishop Alberto Bocht,
a decade's long friend of former Cardinal Robert Privos now Popolio,
(07:49):
is speaking out this week.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Bob.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
He says Pope Francis considered provost one of the hopes
among the cardinals, and he says pop Leo is more
of a formal man than Francis, and we'll keep the
form but change the contents of the papacy. What does
that mean, Bob, What do you think that means?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Well, of course that could be a problem. I've heard
from reliable sources that when Robert Prevos was in Peru
that he used to and bishop he used to require
his priests, for example, to properly vest even when they
went into the Confessionals. So he seems to like this
continuity of form. Now, a continuity of form can coexist
(08:34):
with a lot of changes in content. Obviously, one of
the contents I'd like to see him changes is the
idea of sinidality, so that we actually get some substance
and some clarity about.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
We're going to get to that.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I promise we'll get to the sinidelity discussion coming out again.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
We have to look, I mean, we have to look
at what concrete steps he takes these appointments. What are
the kinds of things that they're going to do. I mean, obviously,
lots of traditional or orthodonted religious bodies within the Church
have suffered recently of persecution, whether it's the Latin Mass
or some of the more conservative religious orders. So I
(09:09):
think that those are going to be the tipping points
at which we're really going to see the shape and
the direction of what this pope intends to do with
the church.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, Cardinal Mario Grek, who some will remember was the
general secretary of that Synod on Bishops or of Bishops
that really included laity. He's claiming this week, quote the
shortage of vocations can be a grace from God, Bob,
because it opens the door to the laity to expand
their role in the church, even administering the sacraments. Here's
(09:41):
the full quote, the shortage of vocations can be a
grace from God. Some are scandalized by these words because
it could prompt the church to recognize and utilize the
diverse gifts present among all Christians, rather than concentrating power
solely within the clergy end quote. There's a lot there
to unpack. What do you make of that thought the
(10:03):
thought process here, you know, and let's not forget the
hostility that's often thrown a traditional seminaries, Bob with lots
of vocations, but that idea that let's not concentrate all
the power solely within the clergy comment all that.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, this idea of you know, who holds power is
kind of a crypto Marxist approach because who holds power
tells you nothing. All it tells you is that some
people are more powerful than others. The question is is
what they are doing with that power?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Is it just? Is it proper? Is it right that
they have that power?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
I have to say, maybe multi this is a different
place than places I'm familiar with, but I don't see
that there's an overdominance of clergy in very many places.
It seems to me that the laity have long been
on the ascendency, at least here in the United States.
The lady do an awful lot of the heavy lifting.
I mean to look at the two of us. We've
been at this stuff for a dozen years together. When
(10:57):
you're trying to figure out where the church are to go.
I mean, maybe we've not done it well, but I
think we've tried to do our best at it. So look,
to me, this is a rationalization. This is whistling past
the graveyard decline in the leadership of an institution. It
signals there's something wrong at the top, where there are
(11:18):
good bishops, where there's a strong and clear idea.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Of what the faith is.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Of course, young men are attracted to that, just in
the same way that they're attracted to the military, or
they're attracted to very good universities. People who are talented
and ambitious and actually want to make a contribution to
the world aren't going to see that they are able
to do that if they're going to be just kind
of tolerated. While the laity are going to become the
(11:43):
primary movers of things. I'm a great believer that the
laity are going to play a major role in saving
a church in our time.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Well, but I got news for Cardinal Gregg. The power
in the church has always been with the lady. That
is the incubator for vocations. It's where old priests and
cardinals and bishops popes come from. And we do hold
the purse strings. As we'll talk about in our next story.
If the laity decides not to give of their treasure
hard earned to the church, that church ceases to exist,
(12:12):
at least there and in that form.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Cardinal Luman was once asked if the church needed the laity,
and he said she would look awfully foolish without them.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
A good insight as all of his insides were bob.
The Diocese of Buffalo announced this week, speaking of withholding
of funds or possibly the giving of them, the Diocese
of Buffalo is asking parishes to contribute eighty million dollars
of the one hundred and fifty million dollars sex abuse
settlement it entered back in April. Now that settlement covers
(12:45):
over eight hundred claims of sexual abuse. According to the diocese,
each Buffalo Diocese each parish. Rather, each parish will receive
a detailed statement of their quote expected contribution to the settlement.
Your thoughts, I mean, I don't know how much money
they're going to pull in this way about.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah, I'm quite familiar with upstate New York because my
wife grew up in that area, and it used to
be a very strong Catholic area. Most of those big
cities Syracuse, Rochester, Albany now or they're been hollowed out
because just you know, the factories have moved out of there,
the enter of living has really declined. So I think
this is going to put a lot of pressure on
(13:27):
those parishes up there. I mean, maybe they're going to
just have to do it to.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Rescue that diocese.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
But this just shows ways in which sin and bad
behavior in any organization are disastrous, even far beyond you know,
we're very sympathetic to what happened to the victims of
these abusers, but what about all the people in the
pews who are struggling to get by in this day
and the age and are being asked to bail out
(13:56):
an institution that didn't do the right thing. You know, ten,
twenty thirty four years. There's going to be some resentments
and I'm going to be surprised actually, if they're able
to pull this off, maybe they can kind of spread
out the rescue over a longer period.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
But there's going to.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Be a resistance, and I think we're going to hear
some loud voices about it.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Well, here's the statement by Bishop Michael Fisher of Buffalo,
which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Quote.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
As we maintained throughout the protracted process, the participation of
the entire Catholic family is necessary to bring a close
to this painful chapter of our diocese and to achieve
a level of restitution that is owed to the many
who have had to carry the tremendous burden of physical, emotional,
spiritual harm of sexual and sexual abuses throughout their lives. Look, Bob,
(14:42):
I think everybody is sensitive to this. The question is
what did the church do in the past, What are
they going to do now to make sure it doesn't
happen again? And as you said, when financial hard times
hit an area like upstate New York, they're not the
people to bail. They can't come up with this kind
of gash.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Well, I mean, look, there are legal ways to deal
with this. You just go through a bankruptcy. This is
what happens with corporations as well. But it's really a
very sad day when some of these places that once
were very vibrant. I hear about the beautiful churches in
a lot of these cities, some of which I've actually visited,
and they're actually quite stunning that you know, during the
(15:22):
period of large immigration or Catholic people built.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
These things up, and you know, maybe we're all going
to just have to bite the bullet and do this again.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
But how sad that we're not building up the way
we once were able to do. And now we're much
wealthier than we were in the past. But what we're
doing actually is just trying to stay afloat and to
compensate for things that were mishandled in the past. I
think our bishops are doing are trying to do a
decent job with this. I would like to see some
(15:50):
more energy coming out of Rome, because as we've known,
there have been some lingering cases even there. This is
one thing that is really going to be on the
plate of Leo, and it's not only being the out
of the States. It is going to be elsewhere as well.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Well, yeah, Bob, this is another weird story. Also upstate
New York, All Saints Catholic Church in Syracuse held an
LGBT Pride Mass on Trinity Sunday. The pastor, who is
self described as a gay priest, Father Fred Daily, welcome
to transgender the female to male Episcopalian to deliver the homily,
(16:23):
where he proceeded to speak about transitioning as.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
Part of Pride Weekend. I'm very honored to welcome to
our ambo today mister Kevin Noble Ward, who will share
with us his journey to the truth.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I felt that I was a boy on the inside,
but everyone kept telling me that I was a girl.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Bob, your thoughts first on what is happening there.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, it's an outrage. Look, you put up a rainbow
flag inside the church. And this is what we were
talking about earlier with this new archbishop in the Brisbane
that if you talk about pastoral outreach to people, it
has to be done in a careful way. It has
to be done in a way that doesn't affirm them.
(17:16):
In what is disordered behavior, it is objectively disordered. It's
objectively disordered in biology as much as it is in
Catholic moral thought. But to do this and to take
a whole perish and drag them into this extreme position
within the church. I think that this is what is
likely to happen if we start getting too promiscuous, if
(17:40):
I put it that way in our pastoral outreach. Look,
you can be sympathetic to a ciner, we're all siners.
You can be sympathetic to the weaknesses when a person
breaks down, but you don't the sympathy doesn't extend to
actually almost celebrating what a person is doing, which seems
to me what is happening here. An activists love these
(18:01):
sorts of circumstances. It makes it look like the Church
is being brutally hateful towards certain groups of people, and
it puts pressure on those people who are who want
to resist this sort of decline within the church. So look,
it has all kinds of ramifications, and the best way
to deal with it is to snuff it out right
(18:21):
at the beginning, I just hope that the local bishop
well is adequate to the task.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Well, here's the continue part two of this story, same parish,
All Saints Church in Syracuse. The Bishop Douglas Luccia came
out with a statement. Because there was an LGBT flag
flying in front of the church, someone came and tore
it down. The bishop released this statement, I have learned
of the unfortunate incident regarding the Pride flag. It certainly
(18:50):
does not reflect the love and compassion that this month
dedicated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus wishes to promote.
End quote. The diocese later said liturgically, regularities with that
priest we talked about a moment ago would be discussed
with him by the bishop, and that there's a policy
of forbidding politically charged banners in front of a church.
But Bob, then why take such umbrage when it's taken down.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Well, see, I think this is the default position that
they all take. We're not hateful, you know, we're not exclusionary,
but it's not hateful to teach what the church teaches
because it's what God teaches. This is what our colleague,
Father Jerrem Murray, constantly emphasizes that it's actually a grace,
it's actually a loving act to tell people, look, yeah,
(19:34):
we'll work with you, we'll meet with you if you
need counseling, will help you. But We're not going to
put up flags to this when we don't put up
flags to a whole variety of other things that are
much closer into what the Catholic Church is all about.
There are people who even complain about American flags.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Inside of a church near an altar.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So look, I regret when bishops do this sort of
thing because I really think it's a half hearted response
to the situation. Okay, you want to defend Catholics. We
are not hateful, we understand that. But this is also
for some people Pride month, and I think our Sacred
Heart of Jesus, we could have had an image of
(20:14):
the Sacred Heart of Jesus that would be inviting people
in front of that church. That would have been far
more appropriate.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
It was also announced this week Bob going internationally here
that a flourishing Cistercian abbey in Austria will receive an
Apostolic visitation in the fall. Now, an apostolic visitation is
when the Vatican authorizes a group of people to go
and investigate, so it's not just a visitation, it's an
investigation of that place, in this case, the Catholic Abbey
(20:43):
of the Holy Cross. Some reports say this investigation or
visitation was ordered by Pope Francis before his death. More
often than not, you know, this doesn't bode well for
the institutions. Now, we do know this is one of
Austria's large and most traditional monasteries, Bob. They're over one
hundred monks in residence, and the visitators will be a
(21:06):
Benedictine abbot, a religious sister who does not wear a habit.
Why do you think this visitation was cold and why
is it proceeding if it was instigated initially by under
Pope Francis's reign.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah, I would hope that Leo would be alerted to
things like this and would be very cautious in proceeding
with him. Some of the reports seem to suggest that
one of the reasons why this abbey is being visited
is because they've raised a question of whether the way
citidelity has proceeded in the last several years, whether it
(21:43):
doesn't call into question the authority that ordained figures within
the church have over lay people. Actually, the whole question
of authority and obedience is something that Pope Leo studied
when he was doing his PhD at the Angelica University
in Rome, and so he may have some developed ideas
about this. I mean, he certainly seems to have run
(22:04):
things in a peaceful but pretty firm way everywhere he's been,
and I think that that already has come through in
the way he's conducted himself. But it looks very much
like this is coming in to either tell people to
get in line behind this kind of expanded idea of
who has authority along the lines of Cardinal Gretsch the
(22:26):
way we're just talking about it, and maybe even go further.
It's regrettable that all these places that seem to be
successful something simp in France. Hundreds of people are flocking
to these places because they like the certainty that's presented
as the church teaching. Obviously, you have to work throughout
(22:47):
your life to accommodate yourself to what the church teaches.
No one arrives and automatically becomes a saint. But the
places that seem to be attracting the most people and
have the most lively of Catholics are often the ones
like the TLM, like the traditional Latin Mass, who are
(23:08):
drawing scrutiny rather than a kind of a study which
would say, well, why is it precisely that these things
are succeeding.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, Bob, look, this is a thought I had while
you were talking. I mean, they target these vibrant houses
of Orthodoxy, but there's a reason that there are large
numbers of seminarians and that's attractive. Rather than trying to
figure out what are they attracted to, let's replicate that.
It seems there's an incentive within the church to commit
Harry Carey and kill off the things that are working
(23:39):
and therefore scatter the seminarians, scatter those who are drawn
to this. It's a very peculiar, odd moment, and I
think it's a challenge for pop Leo at this moment
to address that. It's a crisis. You see it at
Bishop Ray in France, same deal had a large number
of young seminarians, but they wanted Orthodoxy, they wanted the
old Mass that became Foreboden. So it's like, we don't
(24:02):
want that type of seminary, and even if it means
we have none others, I'll give you the word on that.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah, you know, we talk about this a lot, and
that actually Benedict the sixteenth had, I think had the
solution for this, and that is that you allow the
largest diversity of authentic Catholicism that fits within orthodoxy. I
mean there are going to be, obviously people who are
more attracted, let's say.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
To social justice issues.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
There are going to be some that are going to
be more attracted to working with the poor.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
You know, some are going to be attracted to the intellectual.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Life is going to be I mean, there's just there
are specific even religious orders devoted to these things, let
alone individual persons. And why why shut down, especially in Austria,
which is really hurting. I go to Austria every year
because we WUN a program in Eastern Europe, and I
go through Vienna every year, and some years it makes
(24:56):
my hair stand on. And some of the things I
see in the churches there, I mean you've probably seen
reported here in the West, some of the so called
artworks that are displayed and some of the activities that
take place inside those churches. Those activities are going to
drive people away. A place like this monastery is going
to attract monks, and it's also going to inspire lay people,
(25:17):
lay people who see that there is real Catholicism still
alive in Austria.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, Well, people were giving themselves to a faith, giving
themselves to something larger than their own lives and their
selfish wants. I mean, when you see a hundred monks,
I mean, my Lord, do everything you can to preserve
that rather than using one. You know, who knows there
might be one little error, but all of us have
little errors in a community, I mean, any community. There's
something wrong, Bob. But when you send the full force
(25:44):
of this is like the federal government coming in and
investigating a domestic dispute. You know, this is the Vatican
coming in and doing a full scale investigation. It really
ends well well. Echoing our discussion earlier, pop Leo's friend
who observed that Leo is a formal man who likes
to keep the form, the Pope spoke this week about
sacred polyphony chant, the blending of voices on different notes,
(26:06):
and you know, when you get that beautiful blend, he said,
this polyphony itself, moreover, is a musical form full of
meaning for prayer and for Christian life. He went on
to call the polyphonic tradition even today a point of
reference to look to, albeit with necessary adaptations. Bob, your
(26:27):
thoughts on the Pope's love of chance, sacred music and
that necessary adaptations life.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, you know, I didn't know this, but I ran
across it in some article recently that he is a
gifted organist.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
That already know that.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
The head of the Augustinians right now said that he
would often play the organ at masses and he's actually
quite skilled at it. So wow, he himself is a
musician and he understands those sorts of things. I'm pleased
about this. There have been several figures on both if
you want to call it this, the right the left
in the church, who have said that he's kind of
a centrist, he's kind of a moderate. It's one of
(27:05):
the reasons why both wings of the church were able
to come to an agreement on him so quickly during
the last conclave.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
And I hope that really starts to play out.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
And you know, one of the aspects of not just
well not polyphany, but many types of music is you
tolerate some odd notes now and then.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
If you've ever read J. R. R.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Tolkien Silmarillion, which is his creation story, God sings the
universe into existence, and then the devils start introducing some
sour notes, but then God takes those sour notes and
like a jazz player kind of, he kind of integrates
them into an even more interesting chromatic tapestry than just
(27:48):
the usual things that you would expect in music. So look,
if he's really a musician, he's thinking in these terms,
and he's used that opportunity to talk about the way
the different voices blend. I would really like to see
that be developed in the way he governs, in how
he treats the different elements within the church, because God
(28:09):
knows we really need to be a little bit more
tolerant of authentic Catholicism, which doesn't mean narrowness, doesn't necessarily
even mean conservatism, but those different voices that can be
brought to a harmony, or if there are clashes, to
a resolution.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Of the harmony, to a harmony at a certain point.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, that's a beautiful way to describe. Let's hope the
path that Pope Leo proceeds down, and I hope he's
listening and watching. Actress Cynthia Arrivo, Bob, I'm going to
take you to pop culture for a minute of wicked fame.
She plays the Greenwich Elba. She will play Jesus in
a production of Jesus Christ Superstar the Hollywood Bowl in August.
(28:49):
Adam Lambert will play Judas, and other cast members are
still to be announced. She appeared in The Late Show
with Stephen Colbert, who couldn't be more thrilled that Jesus
will be portrayed by a woman.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
Watch one of my favorite musicals of all time is
Jesus Christ Superstar.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
And I'm so excited that in August You're going to
be playing Jesus in Jesus Garcis Star.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
At the Hollywood Balls. Yeah, at the Hollywood Bowls.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah Yeah.
Speaker 5 (29:19):
First woman to play Jesus in a major production. Long overdue.
I've said for years, I'd love to see a woman
in that part.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Bob, your thoughts, especially on this encouragement by Colbert.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Look, I think this is the recavation of our culture,
this idea that Jesus couldn't be who he was. We
talk in the Catholic Church about the incarnation. The incarnation
means God chose to become man, and in this case
particularly a male, and in this case in particularly a
Jew and someone in the Middle East. At what is
(29:52):
it referred to as in the fullness of time? What
does it tell us really that there has to be
this so called alternative casting, I mean tells us that
who Jesus was in his incarnated state at the time
that God himself chose is not adequate to presenting Jesus
in the modern world. That's somehow a black lesbian woman
(30:13):
who's a singer is a better representative in the public
square of who Jesus is. I just don't get this,
or actually I do get it. What it is is
another way to try to advance confusion and smuggle in
ideas of race and of power and of sexuality where
(30:34):
they don't belong.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
You just can look.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I love Shakespeare, and very often when I'm in London,
I will go to the Globe Theater, which is a
reconstructed model of Shakespeare's own theater back in the sixteen hundred.
That place has been absolutely wrecked by the alternative casting
that they do now. People sometimes are still good actors actresses,
but it tilts everything away from what we go to
(31:01):
Shakespeare four And I think in the same way, why
do we go to a performance of a black lesbian
female Jesus.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
It certainly isn't for the Jesus of history and the
Jesus of the church.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
All right, let's move on. Pope Leo is speaking of
cinidality again. He addressed the bishops of Italy this week
about sinidality, saying, may sinidality become a mentality in your
heart and decision making processes and in ways of acting. Now, Bob,
is this a rebranding of sinidality or is this the
(31:34):
rehabilitation of Pope Francis is ephemeral version of it?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Well, I think what we have to do is we
have to see, as we've been saying all along in
this episode, what he's going to do when he.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Set out it.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
You know, lots of people have pointed out, for example,
that when you are going to be talking about things
like LGBT in a synod, right, you want to get
authentic input about the question so that you can make
decisions that are as well based as they.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Possibly can be.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
So who were invited to the last Senate, However, it
wasn't the people here in the United States are trying
to who are Orthodox but are trying to work with
people with the same sex attraction. It wasn't working with
people who work with young people who may be confused
and may think that their trans or something no what
we had was a selection and a deliberate selection. It
(32:27):
seems to me people all on one side of the
aisle with this. So look, if you want to listen
to all voices, fine, but let's make sure that it
is going to be all voices so that we do
come together in that harmony. Unfortunately, we haven't seen it
until now, and the proof will be in the pudding
that as the specific events take place, our specific decisions
(32:49):
are made that allegedly sonatyl I want to see who's
invited to have input.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Finally, Bob, the Archbishop of Los Angeles, Jose Gomez, has
waited into the immigration policy. This week, in an op
ed in his diocesan paper, Gomez argues that the US
needs quote a new conversation about immigration. He condemns the
mass deportations in the city of Los Angeles, saying the
government should quote judge each case on its merits your thoughts.
(33:20):
According to Archibisial Gomez, the conversation should be one that's
realistic and makes necessary moral and practical distinctions about those
in our country illegally. Sounds like he wants to separate
criminal aliens from illegal aliens who have come across the
border with no permission.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Well, look, I'm in agreement with him.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
It would be good to have a national conversation and
to get Congress to do something about it. But we've
been talking about this for forty or fifty years. It's
like negotiating with Iran. I mean, you can negotiate to
le kaws Er home, but nothing ever really happens. Yeah,
two parties that just have two different visions of of
what a reform would be like. And I don't expect
in my lifetime, frankly, I'm going to see a Congress
(34:01):
that is going to pass a reform bill on immigration.
On the specifics. I've got to say, I'm somewhat in
sympathy with him. I've said this before that, look, if
you've a lot, someone came here ten twenty years ago,
they've been working, paying taxes, conducting themselves in a good manner.
(34:22):
The fact that we allowed them to be here for
all this time establishes a certain moral responsibility on our part.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Now, I know this.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Sounds squishy, but it just seems to me that there
is a moral complication there that the country has allowed
that to happen. With the more recent immigrants, I feel
a little bit less sympathetic because I think that they
took advantage, you know, tens of thousands, actually millions, took
advantage of the fact that the border was essentially open,
(34:51):
flooded in, and I don't know that we have quite
as great a responsibility to adjunicate each one of those cases.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Look your heart breaks, Bob, because look I've been there.
When they come across the border. They're coming because they
were told the border was you know, Biden administration. I
was just looking at the stats. Sixty three thousand plus
immigrants came across the border with no permission at all. No,
they didn't get in line at all, no green cart, nothing.
They came across the border because, as you said, there
was a sense that the border was open. Now they
(35:23):
get here, they're standing outside of home depot and there's
a criminal sweep through home depot and they get swept
up in it. Well, I understand, but they do violate
the current statute, which is you cannot enter the country illegally.
That is the federal law of the land.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
No, and the archbishop, you know, rightly says that they
have to judge practicalities. But some of the practicalities our
immigration courts are already wildly over you know, over on
you're booked. So even people who have dates to come
back to court hearings about whether they have refugee status
or whatever their status might be, it can take years
(36:01):
even for the regular process to work. And now if
you're going to add ten million more, at least ten
million more people who have to be processed in some
fashion through a court system is utterly incapable of processing them.
I don't know what the response is possible, other than
to try to manage it as well we can. I
think that the people who are running ICE are primarily
(36:23):
focused on criminals. You rightly say, if there's a sweep,
some of these cases are going to be heartbreaking, but
the country has got to get a grip on.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Well, Bob, we will leave it there. And if you
like more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to
the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or a Royal Grande
podcast wherever you get your podcasts, and like this episode.
That means a lot, not only to us but to Bob.
Bob is a family to take care of them. You
want to help us, Like the episode on behalf of
(36:54):
Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray. Until the posse rides again,
Stay the course and follow the light up Raymond Arroyo,
We'll see you next. Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership
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or wherever you get your podcasts
Pope Leo appointed a new Australian bishop with a controversial
track records. We'll tell you about him and is it
time for a female to play Jesus in a musical
at the Hollywood Bowl. The Prayerful Posse is assembly. Welcome
(00:24):
to this Arroyo Grande series, The Prayerful Posse, where we
dive into matters of faith and its impact on culture.
Let's convene the Posse. Joining us is Robert Royal, editor
in chief of the Catholic Thing dot Org. Father Jerry
Murray is outriding the plains, but we'll catch up with
him in the days they had. I'm Raymond Arroyo. Go
subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify
(00:46):
or on YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show. We don't want
you to miss an episode of the Posse. Bob We
said weeks ago the bishop appointments of Poplio would give
us a sense of his vision and a sense of
where this papacy is going.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Now, this week, Pope Leo appointed his first archbishop in
a major archdiocese in Australia. He named a second Australian
prelate this week as well. But Bishop Shane maclay will
be the new Archbishop of Brisbane, Australia. Now, McLay attended
the twenty twenty four Vaticans send It on sinidality. He
(01:24):
was chosen to help draft that final document, very controversial.
McLay is also publicly in favor of the ordination of
women to the diaconate as deacons and we can presume
the priesthood. Bob your thoughts on this appointment by a
pope who was formerly the head of the Dicastria bishops.
(01:45):
What does it tell us about the mind of Leo
the fourteenth and the direction of the church.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Well, that's a big question, Raymond, and I think we
need to look at this from several different directions because
on the one hand, we know that Leo has spoken against,
for example, LGBT, which this new archbishop seems to favor
at least ministering too. But the way he talks about
(02:10):
it is the way very often we hear Father James
Martin talk about him. That is, you know, we're faithful
to the tradition, but we're pastorally reaching out. And to me,
this kind of two step I think covers over the
fact that activists are perfectly happy to use this to
advance what is quite clearly not the orthodox teaching of
(02:31):
the Catholic Church. So that's one thing. The other thing
is that he has spoken very highly of the German
Sinatal way, which is a very very heterodox approach to
a whole bunch of different questions. And we know that
the Vatican, at least under Pope Francis, with whom Popelia
(02:55):
was very close, was very skeptical of what the Germans
were trying to do, thought of this as potentially schismatic.
So there are different parts to this. Now, he must
know this new archbishop very well, and maybe there are
other sides to when we hear that he's a good administrator,
is a very bright man who listens to people. But
this kind of mixture of a good figure with possibly
(03:19):
heterodox ideas I think might be something we'll see further.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
But we'll see.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Maybe this was an appointment that was already in the pipeline.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
He could certainly have said no.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
About it, but I'm not convinced that this is particularly
a strong sign. We'll have to just see where he
goes after this.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, there's some chatter online, and of course I've been
getting emails this week. Rememberabile, Back in May, Pope Leo
confirmed a father, beat Grogly as the bishop of San Gallen, Switzerland.
You remember that nomination. Now that was just a confirmation
because it's kind of an odd church pick, you know,
the local church has a hand in choosing that bishop.
But he too, this father soon to be bishop beat Grogli,
(04:03):
is also a supporter of female ordination, and people are saying,
wait a minute, this is worrisome. Is this the direction
we're going, that we're going to choose bishops who support
ordaining women to the diaconate or the priesthood. And I mean,
as you rightly pointed out early on Pravos, Pope Leo,
he said back in twenty twenty three, I'll give you
the quote here. I think we're all familiar with the
(04:25):
very significant and long tradition of the Church, and that
the Apostolic tradition is something that has been spelled out
very clearly, especially if you want to talk about the
question of women's ordination to the priesthood. So it seems
he is with the traditional church on this and the
church teaching and history.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, look, we need to distinguish here that the question
right now is female deaconesses. So there are people who
are in favor of this and present it as if
it is just a minor order that it doesn't. It
doesn't pretend the ordination of women as priests. But look,
(05:07):
we know how these things get going. There are snowballs
that start small and they sneak, if I can mix
my metaphors, they sneak the camel's nose under the tent,
and they become larger and larger until it just becomes inevitable. Now,
one of the other factors I think about this appointment
in Brisbane is that it was Cardinal uh Mark Coleridge
(05:29):
who preceded the new bishop. We met with Cardinal Coleridge
several times during the many synods that have taken place
over the past few years, and he always seemed to
me he's very well spoken, very smart, but he always
seemed to me to be on if I can put
it this way, the peripheries of dogma. He was kind
of always open to the next step and happy about advancing,
(05:54):
if you want to call it, this progressive kind kind
of moves within the church. So maybe he had an
influence about this appointment. It's certainly not a strong appointment
for people who are concerned about the orthodoxy of the church.
But I want to say again, we're still in the
early stages.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And there are different reasons. Look, we know that.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
John Paul is second appointed McCarrick, Bergoglio Cardinal Casper. So
even some of the pubs that we look up to
the most have kind of checkered records when it comes
to who they appoint. There may be multiple reasons why
they appoint some person, maybe somebody locally. But I want
(06:37):
to see I think I would like to see some
stronger movement on the part of Pope Leo. He's spoken
very strongly against LGBT. He's talked about how we shouldn't
be discussing genders that don't exist. He seems to be
very strong, as you rightly say, against the ordination of women.
But are the appointments We know that in a way
personnel or policy, we need to see some serious appointments
(07:02):
coming from him as well.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Well, that's what I always say. Look, watch people ask
me tell me about the pope. I said, well, watch
the appointments, see what he does. We did this in
our earliest show when we talked about Poplo see what
he does about the old Latin Mass, what does he
do about the China Deal? But appointments, the day to
day appointment of men who will spread throughout the world
and carry his vision of the church forward. That is,
(07:25):
it's beyond people or policy. It's really people are dogma,
People are the Church. This becomes the visible face of
what Catholicism is or will be in the conception of
the new pope. Now everybody wants to know who is
the new pope? Who is Poplo? And Argentinian Bishop Alberto Bocht,
a decade's long friend of former Cardinal Robert Privos now Popolio,
(07:49):
is speaking out this week.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Bob.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
He says Pope Francis considered provost one of the hopes
among the cardinals, and he says pop Leo is more
of a formal man than Francis, and we'll keep the
form but change the contents of the papacy. What does
that mean, Bob, What do you think that means?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Well, of course that could be a problem. I've heard
from reliable sources that when Robert Prevos was in Peru
that he used to and bishop he used to require
his priests, for example, to properly vest even when they
went into the Confessionals. So he seems to like this
continuity of form. Now, a continuity of form can coexist
(08:34):
with a lot of changes in content. Obviously, one of
the contents I'd like to see him changes is the
idea of sinidality, so that we actually get some substance
and some clarity about.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
We're going to get to that.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I promise we'll get to the sinidelity discussion coming out again.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
We have to look, I mean, we have to look
at what concrete steps he takes these appointments. What are
the kinds of things that they're going to do. I mean, obviously,
lots of traditional or orthodonted religious bodies within the Church
have suffered recently of persecution, whether it's the Latin Mass
or some of the more conservative religious orders. So I
(09:09):
think that those are going to be the tipping points
at which we're really going to see the shape and
the direction of what this pope intends to do with
the church.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, Cardinal Mario Grek, who some will remember was the
general secretary of that Synod on Bishops or of Bishops
that really included laity. He's claiming this week, quote the
shortage of vocations can be a grace from God, Bob,
because it opens the door to the laity to expand
their role in the church, even administering the sacraments. Here's
(09:41):
the full quote, the shortage of vocations can be a
grace from God. Some are scandalized by these words because
it could prompt the church to recognize and utilize the
diverse gifts present among all Christians, rather than concentrating power
solely within the clergy end quote. There's a lot there
to unpack. What do you make of that thought the
(10:03):
thought process here, you know, and let's not forget the
hostility that's often thrown a traditional seminaries, Bob with lots
of vocations, but that idea that let's not concentrate all
the power solely within the clergy comment all that.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, this idea of you know, who holds power is
kind of a crypto Marxist approach because who holds power
tells you nothing. All it tells you is that some
people are more powerful than others. The question is is
what they are doing with that power?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Is it just? Is it proper? Is it right that
they have that power?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
I have to say, maybe multi this is a different
place than places I'm familiar with, but I don't see
that there's an overdominance of clergy in very many places.
It seems to me that the laity have long been
on the ascendency, at least here in the United States.
The lady do an awful lot of the heavy lifting.
I mean to look at the two of us. We've
been at this stuff for a dozen years together. When
(10:57):
you're trying to figure out where the church are to go.
I mean, maybe we've not done it well, but I
think we've tried to do our best at it. So look,
to me, this is a rationalization. This is whistling past
the graveyard decline in the leadership of an institution. It
signals there's something wrong at the top, where there are
(11:18):
good bishops, where there's a strong and clear idea.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Of what the faith is.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Of course, young men are attracted to that, just in
the same way that they're attracted to the military, or
they're attracted to very good universities. People who are talented
and ambitious and actually want to make a contribution to
the world aren't going to see that they are able
to do that if they're going to be just kind
of tolerated. While the laity are going to become the
(11:43):
primary movers of things. I'm a great believer that the
laity are going to play a major role in saving
a church in our time.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Well, but I got news for Cardinal Gregg. The power
in the church has always been with the lady. That
is the incubator for vocations. It's where old priests and
cardinals and bishops popes come from. And we do hold
the purse strings. As we'll talk about in our next story.
If the laity decides not to give of their treasure
hard earned to the church, that church ceases to exist,
(12:12):
at least there and in that form.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Cardinal Luman was once asked if the church needed the laity,
and he said she would look awfully foolish without them.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
A good insight as all of his insides were bob.
The Diocese of Buffalo announced this week, speaking of withholding
of funds or possibly the giving of them, the Diocese
of Buffalo is asking parishes to contribute eighty million dollars
of the one hundred and fifty million dollars sex abuse
settlement it entered back in April. Now that settlement covers
(12:45):
over eight hundred claims of sexual abuse. According to the diocese,
each Buffalo Diocese each parish. Rather, each parish will receive
a detailed statement of their quote expected contribution to the settlement.
Your thoughts, I mean, I don't know how much money
they're going to pull in this way about.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah, I'm quite familiar with upstate New York because my
wife grew up in that area, and it used to
be a very strong Catholic area. Most of those big
cities Syracuse, Rochester, Albany now or they're been hollowed out
because just you know, the factories have moved out of there,
the enter of living has really declined. So I think
this is going to put a lot of pressure on
(13:27):
those parishes up there. I mean, maybe they're going to
just have to do it to.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Rescue that diocese.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
But this just shows ways in which sin and bad
behavior in any organization are disastrous, even far beyond you know,
we're very sympathetic to what happened to the victims of
these abusers, but what about all the people in the
pews who are struggling to get by in this day
and the age and are being asked to bail out
(13:56):
an institution that didn't do the right thing. You know, ten,
twenty thirty four years. There's going to be some resentments
and I'm going to be surprised actually, if they're able
to pull this off, maybe they can kind of spread
out the rescue over a longer period.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
But there's going to.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Be a resistance, and I think we're going to hear
some loud voices about it.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Well, here's the statement by Bishop Michael Fisher of Buffalo,
which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Quote.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
As we maintained throughout the protracted process, the participation of
the entire Catholic family is necessary to bring a close
to this painful chapter of our diocese and to achieve
a level of restitution that is owed to the many
who have had to carry the tremendous burden of physical, emotional,
spiritual harm of sexual and sexual abuses throughout their lives. Look, Bob,
(14:42):
I think everybody is sensitive to this. The question is
what did the church do in the past, What are
they going to do now to make sure it doesn't
happen again? And as you said, when financial hard times
hit an area like upstate New York, they're not the
people to bail. They can't come up with this kind
of gash.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Well, I mean, look, there are legal ways to deal
with this. You just go through a bankruptcy. This is
what happens with corporations as well. But it's really a
very sad day when some of these places that once
were very vibrant. I hear about the beautiful churches in
a lot of these cities, some of which I've actually visited,
and they're actually quite stunning that you know, during the
(15:22):
period of large immigration or Catholic people built.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
These things up, and you know, maybe we're all going
to just have to bite the bullet and do this again.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
But how sad that we're not building up the way
we once were able to do. And now we're much
wealthier than we were in the past. But what we're
doing actually is just trying to stay afloat and to
compensate for things that were mishandled in the past. I
think our bishops are doing are trying to do a
decent job with this. I would like to see some
(15:50):
more energy coming out of Rome, because as we've known,
there have been some lingering cases even there. This is
one thing that is really going to be on the
plate of Leo, and it's not only being the out
of the States. It is going to be elsewhere as well.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Well, yeah, Bob, this is another weird story. Also upstate
New York, All Saints Catholic Church in Syracuse held an
LGBT Pride Mass on Trinity Sunday. The pastor, who is
self described as a gay priest, Father Fred Daily, welcome
to transgender the female to male Episcopalian to deliver the homily,
(16:23):
where he proceeded to speak about transitioning as.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
Part of Pride Weekend. I'm very honored to welcome to
our ambo today mister Kevin Noble Ward, who will share
with us his journey to the truth.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I felt that I was a boy on the inside,
but everyone kept telling me that I was a girl.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Bob, your thoughts first on what is happening there.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, it's an outrage. Look, you put up a rainbow
flag inside the church. And this is what we were
talking about earlier with this new archbishop in the Brisbane
that if you talk about pastoral outreach to people, it
has to be done in a careful way. It has
to be done in a way that doesn't affirm them.
(17:16):
In what is disordered behavior, it is objectively disordered. It's
objectively disordered in biology as much as it is in
Catholic moral thought. But to do this and to take
a whole perish and drag them into this extreme position
within the church. I think that this is what is
likely to happen if we start getting too promiscuous, if
(17:40):
I put it that way in our pastoral outreach. Look,
you can be sympathetic to a ciner, we're all siners.
You can be sympathetic to the weaknesses when a person
breaks down, but you don't the sympathy doesn't extend to
actually almost celebrating what a person is doing, which seems
to me what is happening here. An activists love these
(18:01):
sorts of circumstances. It makes it look like the Church
is being brutally hateful towards certain groups of people, and
it puts pressure on those people who are who want
to resist this sort of decline within the church. So look,
it has all kinds of ramifications, and the best way
to deal with it is to snuff it out right
(18:21):
at the beginning, I just hope that the local bishop
well is adequate to the task.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Well, here's the continue part two of this story, same parish,
All Saints Church in Syracuse. The Bishop Douglas Luccia came
out with a statement. Because there was an LGBT flag
flying in front of the church, someone came and tore
it down. The bishop released this statement, I have learned
of the unfortunate incident regarding the Pride flag. It certainly
(18:50):
does not reflect the love and compassion that this month
dedicated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus wishes to promote.
End quote. The diocese later said liturgically, regularities with that
priest we talked about a moment ago would be discussed
with him by the bishop, and that there's a policy
of forbidding politically charged banners in front of a church.
But Bob, then why take such umbrage when it's taken down.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Well, see, I think this is the default position that
they all take. We're not hateful, you know, we're not exclusionary,
but it's not hateful to teach what the church teaches
because it's what God teaches. This is what our colleague,
Father Jerrem Murray, constantly emphasizes that it's actually a grace,
it's actually a loving act to tell people, look, yeah,
(19:34):
we'll work with you, we'll meet with you if you
need counseling, will help you. But We're not going to
put up flags to this when we don't put up
flags to a whole variety of other things that are
much closer into what the Catholic Church is all about.
There are people who even complain about American flags.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Inside of a church near an altar.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So look, I regret when bishops do this sort of
thing because I really think it's a half hearted response
to the situation. Okay, you want to defend Catholics. We
are not hateful, we understand that. But this is also
for some people Pride month, and I think our Sacred
Heart of Jesus, we could have had an image of
(20:14):
the Sacred Heart of Jesus that would be inviting people
in front of that church. That would have been far
more appropriate.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
It was also announced this week Bob going internationally here
that a flourishing Cistercian abbey in Austria will receive an
Apostolic visitation in the fall. Now, an apostolic visitation is
when the Vatican authorizes a group of people to go
and investigate, so it's not just a visitation, it's an
investigation of that place, in this case, the Catholic Abbey
(20:43):
of the Holy Cross. Some reports say this investigation or
visitation was ordered by Pope Francis before his death. More
often than not, you know, this doesn't bode well for
the institutions. Now, we do know this is one of
Austria's large and most traditional monasteries, Bob. They're over one
hundred monks in residence, and the visitators will be a
(21:06):
Benedictine abbot, a religious sister who does not wear a habit.
Why do you think this visitation was cold and why
is it proceeding if it was instigated initially by under
Pope Francis's reign.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah, I would hope that Leo would be alerted to
things like this and would be very cautious in proceeding
with him. Some of the reports seem to suggest that
one of the reasons why this abbey is being visited
is because they've raised a question of whether the way
citidelity has proceeded in the last several years, whether it
(21:43):
doesn't call into question the authority that ordained figures within
the church have over lay people. Actually, the whole question
of authority and obedience is something that Pope Leo studied
when he was doing his PhD at the Angelica University
in Rome, and so he may have some developed ideas
about this. I mean, he certainly seems to have run
(22:04):
things in a peaceful but pretty firm way everywhere he's been,
and I think that that already has come through in
the way he's conducted himself. But it looks very much
like this is coming in to either tell people to
get in line behind this kind of expanded idea of
who has authority along the lines of Cardinal Gretsch the
(22:26):
way we're just talking about it, and maybe even go further.
It's regrettable that all these places that seem to be
successful something simp in France. Hundreds of people are flocking
to these places because they like the certainty that's presented
as the church teaching. Obviously, you have to work throughout
(22:47):
your life to accommodate yourself to what the church teaches.
No one arrives and automatically becomes a saint. But the
places that seem to be attracting the most people and
have the most lively of Catholics are often the ones
like the TLM, like the traditional Latin Mass, who are
(23:08):
drawing scrutiny rather than a kind of a study which
would say, well, why is it precisely that these things
are succeeding.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, Bob, look, this is a thought I had while
you were talking. I mean, they target these vibrant houses
of Orthodoxy, but there's a reason that there are large
numbers of seminarians and that's attractive. Rather than trying to
figure out what are they attracted to, let's replicate that.
It seems there's an incentive within the church to commit
Harry Carey and kill off the things that are working
(23:39):
and therefore scatter the seminarians, scatter those who are drawn
to this. It's a very peculiar, odd moment, and I
think it's a challenge for pop Leo at this moment
to address that. It's a crisis. You see it at
Bishop Ray in France, same deal had a large number
of young seminarians, but they wanted Orthodoxy, they wanted the
old Mass that became Foreboden. So it's like, we don't
(24:02):
want that type of seminary, and even if it means
we have none others, I'll give you the word on that.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah, you know, we talk about this a lot, and
that actually Benedict the sixteenth had, I think had the
solution for this, and that is that you allow the
largest diversity of authentic Catholicism that fits within orthodoxy. I
mean there are going to be, obviously people who are
more attracted, let's say.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
To social justice issues.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
There are going to be some that are going to
be more attracted to working with the poor.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
You know, some are going to be attracted to the intellectual.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Life is going to be I mean, there's just there
are specific even religious orders devoted to these things, let
alone individual persons. And why why shut down, especially in Austria,
which is really hurting. I go to Austria every year
because we WUN a program in Eastern Europe, and I
go through Vienna every year, and some years it makes
(24:56):
my hair stand on. And some of the things I
see in the churches there, I mean you've probably seen
reported here in the West, some of the so called
artworks that are displayed and some of the activities that
take place inside those churches. Those activities are going to
drive people away. A place like this monastery is going
to attract monks, and it's also going to inspire lay people,
(25:17):
lay people who see that there is real Catholicism still
alive in Austria.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, Well, people were giving themselves to a faith, giving
themselves to something larger than their own lives and their
selfish wants. I mean, when you see a hundred monks,
I mean, my Lord, do everything you can to preserve
that rather than using one. You know, who knows there
might be one little error, but all of us have
little errors in a community, I mean, any community. There's
something wrong, Bob. But when you send the full force
(25:44):
of this is like the federal government coming in and
investigating a domestic dispute. You know, this is the Vatican
coming in and doing a full scale investigation. It really
ends well well. Echoing our discussion earlier, pop Leo's friend
who observed that Leo is a formal man who likes
to keep the form, the Pope spoke this week about
sacred polyphony chant, the blending of voices on different notes,
(26:06):
and you know, when you get that beautiful blend, he said,
this polyphony itself, moreover, is a musical form full of
meaning for prayer and for Christian life. He went on
to call the polyphonic tradition even today a point of
reference to look to, albeit with necessary adaptations. Bob, your
(26:27):
thoughts on the Pope's love of chance, sacred music and
that necessary adaptations life.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, you know, I didn't know this, but I ran
across it in some article recently that he is a
gifted organist.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
That already know that.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
The head of the Augustinians right now said that he
would often play the organ at masses and he's actually
quite skilled at it. So wow, he himself is a
musician and he understands those sorts of things. I'm pleased
about this. There have been several figures on both if
you want to call it this, the right the left
in the church, who have said that he's kind of
a centrist, he's kind of a moderate. It's one of
(27:05):
the reasons why both wings of the church were able
to come to an agreement on him so quickly during
the last conclave.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
And I hope that really starts to play out.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
And you know, one of the aspects of not just
well not polyphany, but many types of music is you
tolerate some odd notes now and then.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
If you've ever read J. R. R.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Tolkien Silmarillion, which is his creation story, God sings the
universe into existence, and then the devils start introducing some
sour notes, but then God takes those sour notes and
like a jazz player kind of, he kind of integrates
them into an even more interesting chromatic tapestry than just
(27:48):
the usual things that you would expect in music. So look,
if he's really a musician, he's thinking in these terms,
and he's used that opportunity to talk about the way
the different voices blend. I would really like to see
that be developed in the way he governs, in how
he treats the different elements within the church, because God
(28:09):
knows we really need to be a little bit more
tolerant of authentic Catholicism, which doesn't mean narrowness, doesn't necessarily
even mean conservatism, but those different voices that can be
brought to a harmony, or if there are clashes, to
a resolution.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Of the harmony, to a harmony at a certain point.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, that's a beautiful way to describe. Let's hope the
path that Pope Leo proceeds down, and I hope he's
listening and watching. Actress Cynthia Arrivo, Bob, I'm going to
take you to pop culture for a minute of wicked fame.
She plays the Greenwich Elba. She will play Jesus in
a production of Jesus Christ Superstar the Hollywood Bowl in August.
(28:49):
Adam Lambert will play Judas, and other cast members are
still to be announced. She appeared in The Late Show
with Stephen Colbert, who couldn't be more thrilled that Jesus
will be portrayed by a woman.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
Watch one of my favorite musicals of all time is
Jesus Christ Superstar.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
And I'm so excited that in August You're going to
be playing Jesus in Jesus Garcis Star.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
At the Hollywood Balls. Yeah, at the Hollywood Bowls.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah Yeah.
Speaker 5 (29:19):
First woman to play Jesus in a major production. Long overdue.
I've said for years, I'd love to see a woman
in that part.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Bob, your thoughts, especially on this encouragement by Colbert.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Look, I think this is the recavation of our culture,
this idea that Jesus couldn't be who he was. We
talk in the Catholic Church about the incarnation. The incarnation
means God chose to become man, and in this case
particularly a male, and in this case in particularly a
Jew and someone in the Middle East. At what is
(29:52):
it referred to as in the fullness of time? What
does it tell us really that there has to be
this so called alternative casting, I mean tells us that
who Jesus was in his incarnated state at the time
that God himself chose is not adequate to presenting Jesus
in the modern world. That's somehow a black lesbian woman
(30:13):
who's a singer is a better representative in the public
square of who Jesus is. I just don't get this,
or actually I do get it. What it is is
another way to try to advance confusion and smuggle in
ideas of race and of power and of sexuality where
(30:34):
they don't belong.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
You just can look.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I love Shakespeare, and very often when I'm in London,
I will go to the Globe Theater, which is a
reconstructed model of Shakespeare's own theater back in the sixteen hundred.
That place has been absolutely wrecked by the alternative casting
that they do now. People sometimes are still good actors actresses,
but it tilts everything away from what we go to
(31:01):
Shakespeare four And I think in the same way, why
do we go to a performance of a black lesbian
female Jesus.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
It certainly isn't for the Jesus of history and the
Jesus of the church.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
All right, let's move on. Pope Leo is speaking of
cinidality again. He addressed the bishops of Italy this week
about sinidality, saying, may sinidality become a mentality in your
heart and decision making processes and in ways of acting. Now, Bob,
is this a rebranding of sinidality or is this the
(31:34):
rehabilitation of Pope Francis is ephemeral version of it?
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Well, I think what we have to do is we
have to see, as we've been saying all along in
this episode, what he's going to do when he.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Set out it.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
You know, lots of people have pointed out, for example,
that when you are going to be talking about things
like LGBT in a synod, right, you want to get
authentic input about the question so that you can make
decisions that are as well based as they.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Possibly can be.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
So who were invited to the last Senate, However, it
wasn't the people here in the United States are trying
to who are Orthodox but are trying to work with
people with the same sex attraction. It wasn't working with
people who work with young people who may be confused
and may think that their trans or something no what
we had was a selection and a deliberate selection. It
(32:27):
seems to me people all on one side of the
aisle with this. So look, if you want to listen
to all voices, fine, but let's make sure that it
is going to be all voices so that we do
come together in that harmony. Unfortunately, we haven't seen it
until now, and the proof will be in the pudding
that as the specific events take place, our specific decisions
(32:49):
are made that allegedly sonatyl I want to see who's
invited to have input.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Finally, Bob, the Archbishop of Los Angeles, Jose Gomez, has
waited into the immigration policy. This week, in an op
ed in his diocesan paper, Gomez argues that the US
needs quote a new conversation about immigration. He condemns the
mass deportations in the city of Los Angeles, saying the
government should quote judge each case on its merits your thoughts.
(33:20):
According to Archibisial Gomez, the conversation should be one that's
realistic and makes necessary moral and practical distinctions about those
in our country illegally. Sounds like he wants to separate
criminal aliens from illegal aliens who have come across the
border with no permission.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Well, look, I'm in agreement with him.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
It would be good to have a national conversation and
to get Congress to do something about it. But we've
been talking about this for forty or fifty years. It's
like negotiating with Iran. I mean, you can negotiate to
le kaws Er home, but nothing ever really happens. Yeah,
two parties that just have two different visions of of
what a reform would be like. And I don't expect
in my lifetime, frankly, I'm going to see a Congress
(34:01):
that is going to pass a reform bill on immigration.
On the specifics. I've got to say, I'm somewhat in
sympathy with him. I've said this before that, look, if
you've a lot, someone came here ten twenty years ago,
they've been working, paying taxes, conducting themselves in a good manner.
(34:22):
The fact that we allowed them to be here for
all this time establishes a certain moral responsibility on our part.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Now, I know this.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Sounds squishy, but it just seems to me that there
is a moral complication there that the country has allowed
that to happen. With the more recent immigrants, I feel
a little bit less sympathetic because I think that they
took advantage, you know, tens of thousands, actually millions, took
advantage of the fact that the border was essentially open,
(34:51):
flooded in, and I don't know that we have quite
as great a responsibility to adjunicate each one of those cases.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Look your heart breaks, Bob, because look I've been there.
When they come across the border. They're coming because they
were told the border was you know, Biden administration. I
was just looking at the stats. Sixty three thousand plus
immigrants came across the border with no permission at all. No,
they didn't get in line at all, no green cart, nothing.
They came across the border because, as you said, there
was a sense that the border was open. Now they
(35:23):
get here, they're standing outside of home depot and there's
a criminal sweep through home depot and they get swept
up in it. Well, I understand, but they do violate
the current statute, which is you cannot enter the country illegally.
That is the federal law of the land.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
No, and the archbishop, you know, rightly says that they
have to judge practicalities. But some of the practicalities our
immigration courts are already wildly over you know, over on
you're booked. So even people who have dates to come
back to court hearings about whether they have refugee status
or whatever their status might be, it can take years
(36:01):
even for the regular process to work. And now if
you're going to add ten million more, at least ten
million more people who have to be processed in some
fashion through a court system is utterly incapable of processing them.
I don't know what the response is possible, other than
to try to manage it as well we can. I
think that the people who are running ICE are primarily
(36:23):
focused on criminals. You rightly say, if there's a sweep,
some of these cases are going to be heartbreaking, but
the country has got to get a grip on.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Well, Bob, we will leave it there. And if you
like more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to
the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or a Royal Grande
podcast wherever you get your podcasts, and like this episode.
That means a lot, not only to us but to Bob.
Bob is a family to take care of them. You
want to help us, Like the episode on behalf of
(36:54):
Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray. Until the posse rides again,
Stay the course and follow the light up Raymond Arroyo,
We'll see you next. Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts and is available on the iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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