March 3, 2021 • 33 mins
“India Syndrome,” a psychosis said to effect Westerners seeking spiritual enlightenment in India, is identified as the cause behind a suicide and a disappearance of two Westerners drawn to India, and led astray there.
India Syndrome Show Notes:
Scott Carney ~ Investigative Journalist, New York Times Bestselling Author and Anthropologist
Jessica Ravitz ~ Freelance journalist and former senior writer for CNN Digital.
Ryan Chambers, Missing in India Facebook Page ~ Access to Jock Chambers information is listed here. Please contact him with any information you might have on Ryan’s disappearance.
Astray Production Team:
School of Humans // iHeartRadio
Caroline Slaughter ~ Host, Writer, Producer
Ankita Anand ~ Producer
Gabbie Watts ~ Supervising Producer
Tunewelders - Sound Production
Jason Shannon ~ Composer
Harper Harris ~ Sound Design, Audio Mixer
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
School of Humans. It's two thousand and six and Scott
Karney is leading a bunch of American college students through India.
This was before Karney became a journalist and bestselling author,
but even years after, it's an experience he'll never forget.
It was really fun to sort of bring these students
(00:29):
on this program, which is basically toward all of you know,
many of the important holy cities in North India. So
we started off in Delhi. They visited Varanassi, the holy
city where many go to die, their body ceremoniously burned
and thrown into the sacred river Ganges. Then Bogaya, where
more than two millenniago the Buddha reached enlightenment. This is
(00:52):
where they stayed for the highlight of their trip, a
seven day silent meditation. I didn't lead the meditations. We
had like a Tibetan Buddhist nun, a Swiss German Tibetan
Buddhist non at this place, the Route Institute in both Gaya,
and you know, we're meditating on like bliss, on Nirvana,
on compassion. And you know, one of the meditations you
(01:15):
do is you meditate on your own death. You meditate
on the impermanence of life and concentrate on the moment
of your own death and then use that to give
yourself perspective on what it means to be alive. For
seven days, we're doing these meditations and we're not talking
to anyone. And you know, I have a variety of students.
I have people who are way out there in sort
(01:36):
of the spiritual weirdo spectrum, and I have some very
normal people. And there's this one student, Emily, who was
probably like the best, brightest, most together student in the
whole group. You know, she was the type a personality
who've got things done and you could always rely on.
Emily was a twenty one year old from Charlottesville, Virginia.
A devoted meditator and yogi back in the States, she
(01:57):
came to India to experience something authentic, and after days
of silent transformative meditation, what she experienced was unexpected. After
the meditation retreat, you know, I'm not you know, I'm
not talking to her at this time. I don't really
know what's going on her head. And she climbs up
to the roof of the retreat center. It's at four
(02:18):
in the morning or so, and wraps a scarf under
her face and jumps off the building to her death.
I don't know how you're feeling, but when I first
heard this story, I was shocked and confused. How can
a spiritual practice like meditation make you do something like that.
(02:41):
Some would argue that through meditation, Emily reached some sort
of enlightenment, which is one of the many objectives of
the four point five trillion dollar global wellness industry. But
if that's the case, and Emily reached this elusive idea
of enlightenment, then what is the cost of enlightenment death?
(03:03):
This is a question I examined thoroughly in this podcast
through stories of people who presumably died or disappeared on
spiritual quests. And what I've learned so far from their
stories and the experts I've spoken to is that enlightenment
is a tight rope. There's a very thin line between
healing and harm. Look, I'm not demonizing the spiritual wellness industry.
(03:26):
My investment in my own spiritual growth the past few
years has gotten me through some devastating shit. The spiritual
practices I ascribe to give me clarity make me feel grounded,
less reactive, more in control of the uncontrollable. They bring
me closer to something that feels like an inner knowing
where I trust myself. But I will say that through
(03:49):
the research I've been doing and some stories will be
sharing in this podcast, the idea of attaining enlightenment, something
many of these spiritual or wellness practice is ascribed to do,
has started to feel like pushing your edge, and some
instances I describe it as a massochistic indulgence to create
(04:09):
infinite release, which is something extreme sport fanatics can relate
to with their bodies. But how do you push your
edge spiritually and what do you sacrifice when you do?
If K two is the most savage mountain extreme mountaineers
are compulsively driven to climb, then India, the mystical mecca,
(04:31):
is that same extreme for spiritual seekers. I know this
because I am a seeker and I'm your host, Caroline Slaughter.
If you don't know what a seeker is, here are
a couple thoughts from people I've interviewed. Seeking for the
next level of spirituality basically not being born into a
(04:53):
human form again, learning all the lessons you have to
in these human form so you can move on to
the next realm. I think that's what a lot of
seekers are looking for, some sort of profound experience outside
of themselves. Someone who's looking for answers to life. Potentially,
people who are looking for other options out of life.
Some of the people that do disappear in India, I'd
(05:14):
say that's probably a driver with all the stresses and
things that come with life, you know, seeking another option.
But at that time I was seeking, you know, I
didn't want to become a holy man, but I did
want to become more enlightened. Even that is a bit
of a con job. I think it's been oversold. Enlightened.
I think being present with your life is pretty good.
(05:35):
It's just about living in the light, meaning the truth
of who you are. A lot of people that will
hear this podcast will be seekers like, don't go to
India because this is a venus flytrap for your vulnerability.
(05:56):
If you're listening to this podcast, I bet one of
those explanations resonated or at least intrigued you, and maybe,
like me, you won't. So want to know what's the
cost of enlightenment? I asked Karney this question, which he
answered with further insight on Emily a pseudonym Karney uses
(06:18):
to protect a student's privacy. One of the main first
questions is, well, why did she do it? And so,
as the director of the program, I read her journal
and it sort of is this descent into madness. The
moment we get into that retreat center. You know, she
has this dream she records about, you know, someone falling
off a cliff, which is sort of weird. And then
(06:39):
she starts saying that I'm having all these visions while
I'm sitting in this meditation, and I know that I'm
on the cusp of something great. I know that I'm
becoming something more. Time is changing around me, I am
achieving something awesome. And the last words in her journal
are I am a Bodhisatfa and all she has to
do is leave her body and she will get to
(07:00):
that next level and Mahayana Buddhism, are you? Sat Fi
is a person who's able to reach nirvana, but delay
is doing so in order to help every other being
in this world achieve the same state. The literal translation
is essence of enlightenment. According to Carney. Emily wrote in
(07:22):
her journal that the meditations had given her a profound
understanding of the universe. She could see how her countless
past lives had made her a perfect vessel for enlightenment.
The only thing preventing her from a transformation into something
greater than herself was her body. You know, when you're meditating,
the world seems to change, like almost like if you're
(07:44):
when you're on a drug. You know, you might be
sitting there and you might not notice the passage of times.
The sun might appear to arise very quickly. You know,
that's happened to me a few times, or you might
you might be having these new types of thoughts that
you've never had before. You're like, wow, I'm on the
this is amazing. I have a vision in something new
and you feel like there's something really big. And I
think what she wanted is to capture that moment. So
(08:08):
there's this desire to find stasis. And death is a
type of stasis, right, death like ending everything is like well,
I know, I know I can stomp it right here,
And I think that's what was going through her mind.
After Emily's death, Karney had the responsibility of getting her
body back to the States, which wasn't easy with India's
(08:28):
one hundred and four degree heat, threatening the decomposition of
her body, and the channels he had to go through
to get Clarence. This tragedy and it's aftermath shook Karney
to his core. You witnessed that when he speaks about
Emily in a twenty fifteen Ted talkie Dead, It's personal
and its effects stayed with him, making him further question
(08:50):
her motive. So I began to wonder how many other
stories out there are there like Emily's. It turns out
that people going to India looking for transcendence are fairly common.
Some of them find it, and some of their stories
(09:12):
don't turn out well. I collected six journals of people
who had taken their own lives on meditation retreats. I
came across the names of Ryan Chambers and Jonathan Spollen,
both of whom disappeared from the Holy City of Rishakesh
within a few years of each other. I found a
(09:33):
mental hospital in New Delhi that admits one hundred Western
travelers a year suffering from a condition that they now
call India Syndrome. Now, Carney just touches on Ryan Chambers
and Jonathan Spollen, two stories that we deep dive into
in this series. And one that I felt a personal
(09:54):
connection to. So at this point, even though they're involuntary
poster children of India syndrome, I don't want to lump
them under that label until we've further investigated this phenomenon
and you've heard their stories told from their families firsthand.
But before we get into all of that, I want
to introduce you to someone. Hey, how are you holding up?
(10:20):
This is in Qita, my co producer and Delhi. We've
been working together on this podcast through COVID the US election,
which we're in the midst of when I recorded this.
How's everything going there? I'm fine? Oh, all my family
members have tested COVID positive. The world has been in
turmoil during the eight months we've been working together, and
(10:44):
during the short stint of knowing in Quita, both our
grandfathers have been sick, mine passed away. We've had family nieces,
dogs hijack our zoom calls and on all the personal
life stresses that are magnified during this pandemic, and you've
got an instant friendship between two co workers from vastly
different places and backgrounds who share more similarities than those differences.
(11:08):
Someone who's not obsessed with rigidities. Who's not so what
it about having all the answers but knowing that there
is as much unlearning in life as it is learning.
That's in Keita's definition of a seeker, which she would
consider herself. But she's also a journalist and my north
(11:31):
star on this podcast. We've only met via zoom. A
friend introduced us after I told her I needed to
find an experienced and thorough investigative journalist in India. She
introduced me to a Keita and I introduced Enquita to
India syndrome. India Syndrome was coined by the French psychiatrist
(11:53):
Regis Erroll, working as a psychiatrist affiliated with a French
consulate in Bombay for a period of sixteen months from
nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty six, at All saw
a total of two hundred patients, of which fifty presented
with psychosis. Of those fifty, twenty one patients had schizophrenia
(12:15):
and therefore prior histories, fourhead psychosis associated with drug use,
and fifteen patients had what appeared to be borderline personality disorders.
It is these fifteen patients thirty percent of patients presenting
with psychosis who are diagnosed as having voyage pathogen or
traveler syndrome aka India syndrome. In Adull's psychiatric opinion, India
(12:42):
syndrome is a travel related psychosis that occurs during travel
to destinations with high religious, spiritual, cultural, or esthetic value,
and to Westerners, India is an exotic locale charged with
spiritual meaning. Here's Carney on this. It's the idea whe
you go to a new place and you're in a
(13:02):
totally different cultural context, and when you do that, it's
an isolating dealing and then you have some sort of experience.
Usually it's an internal experience, there's a spiritual insight, and
then that sort of insight it takes you over and
you go mad. And in India it's India syndrome because
there's a lot of Westerners who go over there and
think that they have achieved something truly spiritual, unique and great.
(13:26):
You don't go on a spiritual journey to India just randomly, right.
Usually you go there with a bunch of ideas in
your head already, and then you go there trying to
find it. Karney's twenty fifteen book The Enlightenment Trap features
this phenomenon. In the book, he touches on twenty one
year old Ryan Chambers story, an Australian who vanished in Rashikesh, India.
(13:51):
According to Karney, Ryan might have been one of the
many Westerners who flocked to India seeking spiritual ennightenment, and
there's some evidence will discuss later that points to that possibility,
but we don't know for sure because no one a
scene or heard from Ryan since two thousand and five
will discuss Ryan's disappearance and the syndrome that potentially prompted it.
(14:15):
After the break. As a seeker with a compulsion for
travel and curiosity around all things spiritual, I wanted to
get to the bottom of this India syndrome thing. But
(14:38):
what I realized is that it's just an entry point
for a handful of other related culture bound syndromes. There's
Stendall syndrome, which is a psychosomatic condition where a person
will faint, hallucinate, experience confusion, or a rapid heartbeat while
viewing an exceptional object, piece of artwork, or phenomena. The
(14:59):
syndrome is unique to Florence, Italy, thus its other name
Florence syndrome. Then there's Paris syndrome, which is bizarre and
noted primarily in Japanese tourists who are disappointed by their
experience in Paris when there are expectations of Paris's beauty
are not met. It leads to the same physical symptoms
as Stenthol syndrome fainting, hallucinations, confusion, but also includes acute
(15:25):
feelings of persecution. But the one that's the most similar
to India syndrome is Jerusalem syndrome, which I'll let journalist
Jessica Rabbits, who's covered religion and spirituality in her work
and wrote an article for CNN about India syndrome, tell
you about that. I'd written before about something called the
Jerusalem syndrome, which is a syndrome where people get to
(15:47):
this holy city and just become so overwhelmed by the
power of it or by the expectations of what they
thought it would be, that they kind of have a
break and they believe they're the Messiah or any number
of biblical figures. So I heard about the India syndrome
(16:07):
and was just fascinated by the idea of it. And
what I know of it is that it's like the
Jerusalem syndrome. It's this unusual condition that can afflict Westerners
who travel to India and become perhaps delusional or in
extreme cases disappear during these quests for enlightenment, and this
(16:31):
brings us back to India syndrome. I went down a
rabbit hole researching India syndrome for this podcast, and I
was admittedly drawn in by books and articles with the
cryptic phenomena at their core, including Carney's book The Enlightenment Trap,
which got my attention with passages about India, like some
are drawn to India by accounts of the superpowers of
(16:54):
dedicated practitioners yogis who can levitate, breathe for months while
entombed underground, or melting giant swaths of snow with their
body heat, believing that they too will be able to
accomplish extraordinary things. This quest to become superhuman, along with
the culture shock, emotional isolation, illicit drugs, and the physical
(17:16):
toll of hardcore meditation, can cause Western seekers to lose
their bearings, seemingly seeing people get out of bed one
day claiming that they've discovered the lost continent of Lemuria,
or that the end of the world is nigh or
that they've awakened their third eye. Most recover, but some
(17:37):
become permanently delusional, a few vanish or even turn up dead.
This section of Carney's book is salacious and tantalizing. It
makes spiritual curiosities and travel in India seem dangerous, and
after what Carney went through with his Studentimily and the
deep dive he did for his book, The Enlightenment Trap,
(17:57):
it's a valid point of view because he's witnessed this
phenomena in real time. But to further examine this theory
in our podcast, I want to take a look at
the disappearance of Ryan Chambers, whose disappearance has been associated
with India syndrome. Ryan was very creative and very artistic,
(18:18):
and I picked that up at a very young age,
around the age of five. So we were in a
family of four logic based people and one creative. That's
Diane Chambers telling me about her son Ryan. I used
to say that he had the ability to sit and
watch paint dry. He used to sit in his own
(18:42):
mind a lot and always appeared not very motivated. But
as the years went on and he got older, I
began to realize that Ryan was motivated by things that
he was really interested in, so which is the case
for everybody. But the fact was, I think it took
(19:05):
him a long time to really find out what really
motivated inspired him. Jack Ryan's dad explains what happened to
their son. On Wednesday, August twenty fourth, two thousand and five,
John and he had been in India for two months
and they went up north to Varonassi, spent a bit
of time there, then went to Rishi Kish and from
(19:28):
our understanding, they are only there for three days and
one morning he just left the sh ram. He took off,
left everything behind, He's wallet, his new sea tar that
he'd bought in Varonassi, all his clothes, his wallet, and
he just disappeared, never to be seen again. Jack and
(19:49):
Dianne made the biggest impression on me. They have so
much love for their son, and their resilience in the
face of his disappearance is moving. Even though they've lived
through a hellish rollercoaster ride of multiple investigations, false leads,
and scams around Ryan's disappearance, they're still helpful and they're
(20:10):
open to telling his story. He never actually said what
it was that he wants to go to India four.
He'd never travel overseas before. He got in touch with
John and said, do you want to go to India
with me? In the summer of two thousand and five,
Ryan backpack through India for two months with his friend John,
the childhood friend. But when they had Rishi Kash, something
(20:34):
was off. It was in the evening here and at
nine o'clock in the evening comes to mind, which is
probably about right, because I think there's about a four
or four and a half hour time difference, and there
was something not quite right then. And I questioned him
about it, and he said to me, he said, I
(20:56):
don't know who to trust anymore. He said, I want
to come home now. He said, I want to come home,
and I want to come home now, and so he
just I think he was in a country that had
shaken him with the reality of what was going on
and how people lived in how poor people were and
all of that, and I think his mind started to
(21:18):
get a bit out of control, and I think he
knew it. Ryan's reaction to India makes total sense. One
person I interviewed described India as an assault to the senses.
It doesn't ease travelers in Kearny has additional thoughts on
the culture shock people experience in India. It's a very
chaotic environment. The streets are our madness, the laws all
(21:42):
seem different. The way people interact with each other's just
very can be very, very overwhelming. So you go through
culture shock when you're there, and when so you're already destabilized.
Let's say you find an ashram and all of a sudden,
it's like little waste piece. You go from sort of
like very fight or flight to very very rest and
digest and sort of like calm. Ryan was at the
(22:07):
Vadna Khidden us room when he called us mom the
night before he disappeared. Here's Danne discussing the rest of
a phone call with Ryan. We talked about, you know,
him having a chat with John, and he'd had the
discussion with John and he was actually, you know, going
to plan to sort of head home. And so then
I had a bit of a sleepless night that night,
(22:27):
not really, there was something unsettling going on then. And
so then when John rang and he just said, look,
he said, Ryan's gone missing. He said, We've gone everywhere today.
They'd hired motorbikes and some other people that he'd met,
and they'd gone to a lot of the places where
they'd they'd been together and whatever. And I've got I
(22:47):
think to about four or four thirty in the afternoon there,
and John started to really worry then, and he said, look,
he said, we've been looking for him. He said, we
can't find him anywhere. He said, should I go to
the police. And I just said, straight away, absolutely, I said,
I knew. I just knew that something was drastically wrong.
(23:09):
Hours after Ryan spoke to his mom, as soon as
the ashram gates were opened, he fled without his wallet, phone,
a shirt. He wasn't even wearing shoes. He didn't tell John.
He didn't hurt anyone at the ashram. He just left.
But it's not Ryan's disappearance that made him the first
poster child of India syndrome. It's what he left behind.
(23:34):
Diana is paging through Ryan's diary of intricate pen drawings
and notes. Yeah, he's some amazing stuff in here. And
that one is my brain map without chrono, whatever that means.
Below this drawing our rivets, squiggles and circles making up
(23:54):
what looks like a brain inside the brain are lines
like flow or follow, not far enough and will you
make it? But this Ryan's absolute last entry in his
diary says as what labeled Ryan a victim of India syndrome.
(24:15):
If I'm gone, don't worry, I'm not dead. I'm just
freeing minds. And to do that I had to free
my own. That entry defined Ryan as a spiritual seeker,
and you can see why. It's a pretty cryptic existential
message to leave behind. But it leads me to ask
(24:38):
why did the entry automatically label Ryan a seeker on
some sort of spiritual quest? I mean, if Ryan had
been traveling through Italy at the time of his disappearance
in this journal entry was found, what does words have
the same impact, in other words, as the mystique of
India and the mysterious phenomenon India Syndrome that's pinned to it,
(25:01):
overshadowing the truth of what happened to Ryan. Here's the thing.
(25:23):
India syndrome is a theory. It's just that a theory.
Even Carney said it was not an officially recognized disease,
though he does believe, along with many others I interviewed
for the podcasts, that it's a real phenomenon and a
dangerous one. He also believes it affected Ryan Chambers, and
like other media outlets, penned Ryan a spiritual seeker. Obviously,
(25:47):
Ryan's last diary entry about freeing minds but first having
to free his own was cryptic, but unfortunately, because his
message was found in Ratia Cash, a spiritual hotspot in India,
it allowed authorities to write him off as someone who
chose to vanish, and it gave the media free rain
to identify him as a victim of India syndrome, which
(26:10):
gave Ryan's tragic disappearance a closure his family still doesn't have.
But all of this points to a bigger issue surrounding
India Syndrome, which is Westerners creating a narrative around the unknown,
in this case India. But as someone born and raised
(26:31):
in India, I want to get a key to his
thoughts on India Syndrome. I had not heard about India
syndrome before you mentioned it, before I started working on
the podcast. I believe human beings love to label in
order to understand, no matter how limiting that label might be.
Were you offended by it at all? I am a
(26:53):
little annoyed by it by the term India syndrome because
I have traveled to a few countries in the West
and my experience hasn't mixed. But I am aware enough
to know that I cannot generalize a whole place, an
entire country on the basis of spending a short duration
(27:15):
of time there, and it depends on a lot of
a lot of factors what make experience there would be
So to sort of take this big, simplistic term and
believe that that is a general definition of a place,
I feel is kind of reckless and irresponsible. The Chambers
(27:36):
also think India syndrome is off point. I asked Aaron
Ryan's older brother if he thought Ryan was a seeker,
as the media claimed, called the India for some sort
of spiritual quest. No, no, not at all. I don't
think he was ever seeking enlightenment. It wasn't spiritual in
(27:56):
that kind of sense. So I don't think he was
actually seeking for anything. I don't think he went to
India to try and finances to anything. I don't think
he went to India. I think he went there to
check it out. His parents agree. Personally, I don't believe
in India syndrome. It's just something that journalists pulled out
of the woodwork, because people do go missing, but people
(28:18):
go missing in other places. I think a lot of
people like to go to India because it's mystique's but
whether something takes over when they're there, I really don't know.
But India syndrome is just a name given by someone
and I I don't think it's an illness as such,
or I don't think everyone's looking for enlightenment. The Chambers
(28:43):
don't believe their son was a seeker, and they definitely
don't believe in India syndrome. Even though Ryan has been
consistently linked to the phenomena, they don't think it had
anything to do with his disappearance. Aaron recounts Ryan's last
conversation with Diane. His timeline is a little off from Diane's,
but the sentiment is the same. He called Mum a
(29:03):
few days before he went missing, saying I've seen all
I want to see. I want to come home. He
was scared of something, you know that that was unlike him.
And I met an Australian guy when I was there
the first time who was with Ryan the night before
he left and said he was running around the Ashram
grounds trying to fly, which is kind of weird, unlike him,
(29:25):
And apparently he couldn't sleep properly, and he went into
someone else's room in the ashram, not John's, but another
person's and asked if he could stay there the night
because he was just afraid of something. The guy said, no,
go back to your own room. And then you look
at his journal. His writing style was great, really comical,
like he'd described, things were happening in such a vivid way.
As Aaron points out pretty consistently, this erratic behavior wasn't
(29:48):
like Ryan. Even his final diary entry was strikingly different
from the rest of his entries, which says something about
Ryan Steed of mine when he wrote it. But then
the last couple of pages, this big scrawl across the
last two pages in colored markers, just saying something along
the lines of if I'm missing, I'm not. I need
to free minds, but first I need to free my own.
(30:09):
And it look like an alternate personality had written it
or someone else altogether. But one fact remains a mystery.
Where is Ryan's body? After almost sixteen years, Ryan's body
has still not been found, which is rare in Rishi Cash,
where drowned bodies wash up from the Ganges River daily,
(30:30):
and where the wooded areas of the Himalayas though vast
and dense are as one interview, he said, teeming with
eyes you'll never see. So could Ryan still be out there?
If we got a call today from Ryan, that would
be a whole other journey we're on because he's going
to be in. He's not gonna be the same person
(30:52):
that left, So like, what does that journey even look like?
And to be honest, maybe maybe it's better off if
you don't get that call. Who is that person going
to be? Yeah, it's not gonna be the person I
knew fifteen years ago. Bryan's is the first story we'll
be sharing on this podcast, but throughout the series, we'll
(31:15):
be investigating three disappearances and one death in India, with
each case unpacking a different aspect of our central question,
what is the cost of enlightenment? Are these deaths and
disappearances the result of a spiritual quest or is there
something darker lurking beneath the mystical allure of India. He
(31:41):
woke up in a train station in India, had no
idea who he was where he was when he was,
his mind a bit basically white. And she was taking
all the details and she said, oh a lot. Where
did he go missing? And I said in India? She said, oh, India,
of all places, not India. India as such has been
known as the land of mystics and mischiefs in the West.
(32:03):
So when you put something like India syndrome, obviously you
are catching ibots. And I guess you think about it.
There's a bit of a mystique about someone going missing,
right like what have they gone seeking? And what are they?
You know, are they? Have they reached this enlightenment? Have they?
Are they now one of these kind of mystical people
in India. If you have any information or tips on
(32:28):
Ryan chambers disappearance, please reach out to Jog Chambers at
Jock joc k dot Chambers, C H. A. M. B. E. R.
S at gmail dot com. Astray as a production of
School of Humans and iHeartRadio. Today's episode of Astray India
Syndrome was produced, written, and narrated by Me, Caroline Flodder
(32:52):
and Kita Nand is my co producer, and Gabby Watts
is our supervising producer. Special thanks to Tiffany Morgan. Astray
was scored by Jason Shannon, was sound designed and mixed
by Tune Welders exactly. The producers are Brandon Barr, Elsie
Crowley and Brian Lavin. Thanks for listening, School of Humans
School of Humans. It's two thousand and six and Scott
Karney is leading a bunch of American college students through India.
This was before Karney became a journalist and bestselling author,
but even years after, it's an experience he'll never forget.
It was really fun to sort of bring these students
(00:29):
on this program, which is basically toward all of you know,
many of the important holy cities in North India. So
we started off in Delhi. They visited Varanassi, the holy
city where many go to die, their body ceremoniously burned
and thrown into the sacred river Ganges. Then Bogaya, where
more than two millenniago the Buddha reached enlightenment. This is
(00:52):
where they stayed for the highlight of their trip, a
seven day silent meditation. I didn't lead the meditations. We
had like a Tibetan Buddhist nun, a Swiss German Tibetan
Buddhist non at this place, the Route Institute in both Gaya,
and you know, we're meditating on like bliss, on Nirvana,
on compassion. And you know, one of the meditations you
(01:15):
do is you meditate on your own death. You meditate
on the impermanence of life and concentrate on the moment
of your own death and then use that to give
yourself perspective on what it means to be alive. For
seven days, we're doing these meditations and we're not talking
to anyone. And you know, I have a variety of students.
I have people who are way out there in sort
(01:36):
of the spiritual weirdo spectrum, and I have some very
normal people. And there's this one student, Emily, who was
probably like the best, brightest, most together student in the
whole group. You know, she was the type a personality
who've got things done and you could always rely on.
Emily was a twenty one year old from Charlottesville, Virginia.
A devoted meditator and yogi back in the States, she
(01:57):
came to India to experience something authentic, and after days
of silent transformative meditation, what she experienced was unexpected. After
the meditation retreat, you know, I'm not you know, I'm
not talking to her at this time. I don't really
know what's going on her head. And she climbs up
to the roof of the retreat center. It's at four
(02:18):
in the morning or so, and wraps a scarf under
her face and jumps off the building to her death.
I don't know how you're feeling, but when I first
heard this story, I was shocked and confused. How can
a spiritual practice like meditation make you do something like that.
(02:41):
Some would argue that through meditation, Emily reached some sort
of enlightenment, which is one of the many objectives of
the four point five trillion dollar global wellness industry. But
if that's the case, and Emily reached this elusive idea
of enlightenment, then what is the cost of enlightenment death?
(03:03):
This is a question I examined thoroughly in this podcast
through stories of people who presumably died or disappeared on
spiritual quests. And what I've learned so far from their
stories and the experts I've spoken to is that enlightenment
is a tight rope. There's a very thin line between
healing and harm. Look, I'm not demonizing the spiritual wellness industry.
(03:26):
My investment in my own spiritual growth the past few
years has gotten me through some devastating shit. The spiritual
practices I ascribe to give me clarity make me feel grounded,
less reactive, more in control of the uncontrollable. They bring
me closer to something that feels like an inner knowing
where I trust myself. But I will say that through
(03:49):
the research I've been doing and some stories will be
sharing in this podcast, the idea of attaining enlightenment, something
many of these spiritual or wellness practice is ascribed to do,
has started to feel like pushing your edge, and some
instances I describe it as a massochistic indulgence to create
(04:09):
infinite release, which is something extreme sport fanatics can relate
to with their bodies. But how do you push your
edge spiritually and what do you sacrifice when you do?
If K two is the most savage mountain extreme mountaineers
are compulsively driven to climb, then India, the mystical mecca,
(04:31):
is that same extreme for spiritual seekers. I know this
because I am a seeker and I'm your host, Caroline Slaughter.
If you don't know what a seeker is, here are
a couple thoughts from people I've interviewed. Seeking for the
next level of spirituality basically not being born into a
(04:53):
human form again, learning all the lessons you have to
in these human form so you can move on to
the next realm. I think that's what a lot of
seekers are looking for, some sort of profound experience outside
of themselves. Someone who's looking for answers to life. Potentially,
people who are looking for other options out of life.
Some of the people that do disappear in India, I'd
(05:14):
say that's probably a driver with all the stresses and
things that come with life, you know, seeking another option.
But at that time I was seeking, you know, I
didn't want to become a holy man, but I did
want to become more enlightened. Even that is a bit
of a con job. I think it's been oversold. Enlightened.
I think being present with your life is pretty good.
(05:35):
It's just about living in the light, meaning the truth
of who you are. A lot of people that will
hear this podcast will be seekers like, don't go to
India because this is a venus flytrap for your vulnerability.
(05:56):
If you're listening to this podcast, I bet one of
those explanations resonated or at least intrigued you, and maybe,
like me, you won't. So want to know what's the
cost of enlightenment? I asked Karney this question, which he
answered with further insight on Emily a pseudonym Karney uses
(06:18):
to protect a student's privacy. One of the main first
questions is, well, why did she do it? And so,
as the director of the program, I read her journal
and it sort of is this descent into madness. The
moment we get into that retreat center. You know, she
has this dream she records about, you know, someone falling
off a cliff, which is sort of weird. And then
(06:39):
she starts saying that I'm having all these visions while
I'm sitting in this meditation, and I know that I'm
on the cusp of something great. I know that I'm
becoming something more. Time is changing around me, I am
achieving something awesome. And the last words in her journal
are I am a Bodhisatfa and all she has to
do is leave her body and she will get to
(07:00):
that next level and Mahayana Buddhism, are you? Sat Fi
is a person who's able to reach nirvana, but delay
is doing so in order to help every other being
in this world achieve the same state. The literal translation
is essence of enlightenment. According to Carney. Emily wrote in
(07:22):
her journal that the meditations had given her a profound
understanding of the universe. She could see how her countless
past lives had made her a perfect vessel for enlightenment.
The only thing preventing her from a transformation into something
greater than herself was her body. You know, when you're meditating,
the world seems to change, like almost like if you're
(07:44):
when you're on a drug. You know, you might be
sitting there and you might not notice the passage of times.
The sun might appear to arise very quickly. You know,
that's happened to me a few times, or you might
you might be having these new types of thoughts that
you've never had before. You're like, wow, I'm on the
this is amazing. I have a vision in something new
and you feel like there's something really big. And I
think what she wanted is to capture that moment. So
(08:08):
there's this desire to find stasis. And death is a
type of stasis, right, death like ending everything is like well,
I know, I know I can stomp it right here,
And I think that's what was going through her mind.
After Emily's death, Karney had the responsibility of getting her
body back to the States, which wasn't easy with India's
(08:28):
one hundred and four degree heat, threatening the decomposition of
her body, and the channels he had to go through
to get Clarence. This tragedy and it's aftermath shook Karney
to his core. You witnessed that when he speaks about
Emily in a twenty fifteen Ted talkie Dead, It's personal
and its effects stayed with him, making him further question
(08:50):
her motive. So I began to wonder how many other
stories out there are there like Emily's. It turns out
that people going to India looking for transcendence are fairly common.
Some of them find it, and some of their stories
(09:12):
don't turn out well. I collected six journals of people
who had taken their own lives on meditation retreats. I
came across the names of Ryan Chambers and Jonathan Spollen,
both of whom disappeared from the Holy City of Rishakesh
within a few years of each other. I found a
(09:33):
mental hospital in New Delhi that admits one hundred Western
travelers a year suffering from a condition that they now
call India Syndrome. Now, Carney just touches on Ryan Chambers
and Jonathan Spollen, two stories that we deep dive into
in this series. And one that I felt a personal
(09:54):
connection to. So at this point, even though they're involuntary
poster children of India syndrome, I don't want to lump
them under that label until we've further investigated this phenomenon
and you've heard their stories told from their families firsthand.
But before we get into all of that, I want
to introduce you to someone. Hey, how are you holding up?
(10:20):
This is in Qita, my co producer and Delhi. We've
been working together on this podcast through COVID the US election,
which we're in the midst of when I recorded this.
How's everything going there? I'm fine? Oh, all my family
members have tested COVID positive. The world has been in
turmoil during the eight months we've been working together, and
(10:44):
during the short stint of knowing in Quita, both our
grandfathers have been sick, mine passed away. We've had family nieces,
dogs hijack our zoom calls and on all the personal
life stresses that are magnified during this pandemic, and you've
got an instant friendship between two co workers from vastly
different places and backgrounds who share more similarities than those differences.
(11:08):
Someone who's not obsessed with rigidities. Who's not so what
it about having all the answers but knowing that there
is as much unlearning in life as it is learning.
That's in Keita's definition of a seeker, which she would
consider herself. But she's also a journalist and my north
(11:31):
star on this podcast. We've only met via zoom. A
friend introduced us after I told her I needed to
find an experienced and thorough investigative journalist in India. She
introduced me to a Keita and I introduced Enquita to
India syndrome. India Syndrome was coined by the French psychiatrist
(11:53):
Regis Erroll, working as a psychiatrist affiliated with a French
consulate in Bombay for a period of sixteen months from
nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty six, at All saw
a total of two hundred patients, of which fifty presented
with psychosis. Of those fifty, twenty one patients had schizophrenia
(12:15):
and therefore prior histories, fourhead psychosis associated with drug use,
and fifteen patients had what appeared to be borderline personality disorders.
It is these fifteen patients thirty percent of patients presenting
with psychosis who are diagnosed as having voyage pathogen or
traveler syndrome aka India syndrome. In Adull's psychiatric opinion, India
(12:42):
syndrome is a travel related psychosis that occurs during travel
to destinations with high religious, spiritual, cultural, or esthetic value,
and to Westerners, India is an exotic locale charged with
spiritual meaning. Here's Carney on this. It's the idea whe
you go to a new place and you're in a
(13:02):
totally different cultural context, and when you do that, it's
an isolating dealing and then you have some sort of experience.
Usually it's an internal experience, there's a spiritual insight, and
then that sort of insight it takes you over and
you go mad. And in India it's India syndrome because
there's a lot of Westerners who go over there and
think that they have achieved something truly spiritual, unique and great.
(13:26):
You don't go on a spiritual journey to India just randomly, right.
Usually you go there with a bunch of ideas in
your head already, and then you go there trying to
find it. Karney's twenty fifteen book The Enlightenment Trap features
this phenomenon. In the book, he touches on twenty one
year old Ryan Chambers story, an Australian who vanished in Rashikesh, India.
(13:51):
According to Karney, Ryan might have been one of the
many Westerners who flocked to India seeking spiritual ennightenment, and
there's some evidence will discuss later that points to that possibility,
but we don't know for sure because no one a
scene or heard from Ryan since two thousand and five
will discuss Ryan's disappearance and the syndrome that potentially prompted it.
(14:15):
After the break. As a seeker with a compulsion for
travel and curiosity around all things spiritual, I wanted to
get to the bottom of this India syndrome thing. But
(14:38):
what I realized is that it's just an entry point
for a handful of other related culture bound syndromes. There's
Stendall syndrome, which is a psychosomatic condition where a person
will faint, hallucinate, experience confusion, or a rapid heartbeat while
viewing an exceptional object, piece of artwork, or phenomena. The
(14:59):
syndrome is unique to Florence, Italy, thus its other name
Florence syndrome. Then there's Paris syndrome, which is bizarre and
noted primarily in Japanese tourists who are disappointed by their
experience in Paris when there are expectations of Paris's beauty
are not met. It leads to the same physical symptoms
as Stenthol syndrome fainting, hallucinations, confusion, but also includes acute
(15:25):
feelings of persecution. But the one that's the most similar
to India syndrome is Jerusalem syndrome, which I'll let journalist
Jessica Rabbits, who's covered religion and spirituality in her work
and wrote an article for CNN about India syndrome, tell
you about that. I'd written before about something called the
Jerusalem syndrome, which is a syndrome where people get to
(15:47):
this holy city and just become so overwhelmed by the
power of it or by the expectations of what they
thought it would be, that they kind of have a
break and they believe they're the Messiah or any number
of biblical figures. So I heard about the India syndrome
(16:07):
and was just fascinated by the idea of it. And
what I know of it is that it's like the
Jerusalem syndrome. It's this unusual condition that can afflict Westerners
who travel to India and become perhaps delusional or in
extreme cases disappear during these quests for enlightenment, and this
(16:31):
brings us back to India syndrome. I went down a
rabbit hole researching India syndrome for this podcast, and I
was admittedly drawn in by books and articles with the
cryptic phenomena at their core, including Carney's book The Enlightenment Trap,
which got my attention with passages about India, like some
are drawn to India by accounts of the superpowers of
(16:54):
dedicated practitioners yogis who can levitate, breathe for months while
entombed underground, or melting giant swaths of snow with their
body heat, believing that they too will be able to
accomplish extraordinary things. This quest to become superhuman, along with
the culture shock, emotional isolation, illicit drugs, and the physical
(17:16):
toll of hardcore meditation, can cause Western seekers to lose
their bearings, seemingly seeing people get out of bed one
day claiming that they've discovered the lost continent of Lemuria,
or that the end of the world is nigh or
that they've awakened their third eye. Most recover, but some
(17:37):
become permanently delusional, a few vanish or even turn up dead.
This section of Carney's book is salacious and tantalizing. It
makes spiritual curiosities and travel in India seem dangerous, and
after what Carney went through with his Studentimily and the
deep dive he did for his book, The Enlightenment Trap,
(17:57):
it's a valid point of view because he's witnessed this
phenomena in real time. But to further examine this theory
in our podcast, I want to take a look at
the disappearance of Ryan Chambers, whose disappearance has been associated
with India syndrome. Ryan was very creative and very artistic,
(18:18):
and I picked that up at a very young age,
around the age of five. So we were in a
family of four logic based people and one creative. That's
Diane Chambers telling me about her son Ryan. I used
to say that he had the ability to sit and
watch paint dry. He used to sit in his own
(18:42):
mind a lot and always appeared not very motivated. But
as the years went on and he got older, I
began to realize that Ryan was motivated by things that
he was really interested in, so which is the case
for everybody. But the fact was, I think it took
(19:05):
him a long time to really find out what really
motivated inspired him. Jack Ryan's dad explains what happened to
their son. On Wednesday, August twenty fourth, two thousand and five,
John and he had been in India for two months
and they went up north to Varonassi, spent a bit
of time there, then went to Rishi Kish and from
(19:28):
our understanding, they are only there for three days and
one morning he just left the sh ram. He took off,
left everything behind, He's wallet, his new sea tar that
he'd bought in Varonassi, all his clothes, his wallet, and
he just disappeared, never to be seen again. Jack and
(19:49):
Dianne made the biggest impression on me. They have so
much love for their son, and their resilience in the
face of his disappearance is moving. Even though they've lived
through a hellish rollercoaster ride of multiple investigations, false leads,
and scams around Ryan's disappearance, they're still helpful and they're
(20:10):
open to telling his story. He never actually said what
it was that he wants to go to India four.
He'd never travel overseas before. He got in touch with
John and said, do you want to go to India
with me? In the summer of two thousand and five,
Ryan backpack through India for two months with his friend John,
the childhood friend. But when they had Rishi Kash, something
(20:34):
was off. It was in the evening here and at
nine o'clock in the evening comes to mind, which is
probably about right, because I think there's about a four
or four and a half hour time difference, and there
was something not quite right then. And I questioned him
about it, and he said to me, he said, I
(20:56):
don't know who to trust anymore. He said, I want
to come home now. He said, I want to come home,
and I want to come home now, and so he
just I think he was in a country that had
shaken him with the reality of what was going on
and how people lived in how poor people were and
all of that, and I think his mind started to
(21:18):
get a bit out of control, and I think he
knew it. Ryan's reaction to India makes total sense. One
person I interviewed described India as an assault to the senses.
It doesn't ease travelers in Kearny has additional thoughts on
the culture shock people experience in India. It's a very
chaotic environment. The streets are our madness, the laws all
(21:42):
seem different. The way people interact with each other's just
very can be very, very overwhelming. So you go through
culture shock when you're there, and when so you're already destabilized.
Let's say you find an ashram and all of a sudden,
it's like little waste piece. You go from sort of
like very fight or flight to very very rest and
digest and sort of like calm. Ryan was at the
(22:07):
Vadna Khidden us room when he called us mom the
night before he disappeared. Here's Danne discussing the rest of
a phone call with Ryan. We talked about, you know,
him having a chat with John, and he'd had the
discussion with John and he was actually, you know, going
to plan to sort of head home. And so then
I had a bit of a sleepless night that night,
(22:27):
not really, there was something unsettling going on then. And
so then when John rang and he just said, look,
he said, Ryan's gone missing. He said, We've gone everywhere today.
They'd hired motorbikes and some other people that he'd met,
and they'd gone to a lot of the places where
they'd they'd been together and whatever. And I've got I
(22:47):
think to about four or four thirty in the afternoon there,
and John started to really worry then, and he said, look,
he said, we've been looking for him. He said, we
can't find him anywhere. He said, should I go to
the police. And I just said, straight away, absolutely, I said,
I knew. I just knew that something was drastically wrong.
(23:09):
Hours after Ryan spoke to his mom, as soon as
the ashram gates were opened, he fled without his wallet, phone,
a shirt. He wasn't even wearing shoes. He didn't tell John.
He didn't hurt anyone at the ashram. He just left.
But it's not Ryan's disappearance that made him the first
poster child of India syndrome. It's what he left behind.
(23:34):
Diana is paging through Ryan's diary of intricate pen drawings
and notes. Yeah, he's some amazing stuff in here. And
that one is my brain map without chrono, whatever that means.
Below this drawing our rivets, squiggles and circles making up
(23:54):
what looks like a brain inside the brain are lines
like flow or follow, not far enough and will you
make it? But this Ryan's absolute last entry in his
diary says as what labeled Ryan a victim of India syndrome.
(24:15):
If I'm gone, don't worry, I'm not dead. I'm just
freeing minds. And to do that I had to free
my own. That entry defined Ryan as a spiritual seeker,
and you can see why. It's a pretty cryptic existential
message to leave behind. But it leads me to ask
(24:38):
why did the entry automatically label Ryan a seeker on
some sort of spiritual quest? I mean, if Ryan had
been traveling through Italy at the time of his disappearance
in this journal entry was found, what does words have
the same impact, in other words, as the mystique of
India and the mysterious phenomenon India Syndrome that's pinned to it,
(25:01):
overshadowing the truth of what happened to Ryan. Here's the thing.
(25:23):
India syndrome is a theory. It's just that a theory.
Even Carney said it was not an officially recognized disease,
though he does believe, along with many others I interviewed
for the podcasts, that it's a real phenomenon and a
dangerous one. He also believes it affected Ryan Chambers, and
like other media outlets, penned Ryan a spiritual seeker. Obviously,
(25:47):
Ryan's last diary entry about freeing minds but first having
to free his own was cryptic, but unfortunately, because his
message was found in Ratia Cash, a spiritual hotspot in India,
it allowed authorities to write him off as someone who
chose to vanish, and it gave the media free rain
to identify him as a victim of India syndrome, which
(26:10):
gave Ryan's tragic disappearance a closure his family still doesn't have.
But all of this points to a bigger issue surrounding
India Syndrome, which is Westerners creating a narrative around the unknown,
in this case India. But as someone born and raised
(26:31):
in India, I want to get a key to his
thoughts on India Syndrome. I had not heard about India
syndrome before you mentioned it, before I started working on
the podcast. I believe human beings love to label in
order to understand, no matter how limiting that label might be.
Were you offended by it at all? I am a
(26:53):
little annoyed by it by the term India syndrome because
I have traveled to a few countries in the West
and my experience hasn't mixed. But I am aware enough
to know that I cannot generalize a whole place, an
entire country on the basis of spending a short duration
(27:15):
of time there, and it depends on a lot of
a lot of factors what make experience there would be
So to sort of take this big, simplistic term and
believe that that is a general definition of a place,
I feel is kind of reckless and irresponsible. The Chambers
(27:36):
also think India syndrome is off point. I asked Aaron
Ryan's older brother if he thought Ryan was a seeker,
as the media claimed, called the India for some sort
of spiritual quest. No, no, not at all. I don't
think he was ever seeking enlightenment. It wasn't spiritual in
(27:56):
that kind of sense. So I don't think he was
actually seeking for anything. I don't think he went to
India to try and finances to anything. I don't think
he went to India. I think he went there to
check it out. His parents agree. Personally, I don't believe
in India syndrome. It's just something that journalists pulled out
of the woodwork, because people do go missing, but people
(28:18):
go missing in other places. I think a lot of
people like to go to India because it's mystique's but
whether something takes over when they're there, I really don't know.
But India syndrome is just a name given by someone
and I I don't think it's an illness as such,
or I don't think everyone's looking for enlightenment. The Chambers
(28:43):
don't believe their son was a seeker, and they definitely
don't believe in India syndrome. Even though Ryan has been
consistently linked to the phenomena, they don't think it had
anything to do with his disappearance. Aaron recounts Ryan's last
conversation with Diane. His timeline is a little off from Diane's,
but the sentiment is the same. He called Mum a
(29:03):
few days before he went missing, saying I've seen all
I want to see. I want to come home. He
was scared of something, you know that that was unlike him.
And I met an Australian guy when I was there
the first time who was with Ryan the night before
he left and said he was running around the Ashram
grounds trying to fly, which is kind of weird, unlike him,
(29:25):
And apparently he couldn't sleep properly, and he went into
someone else's room in the ashram, not John's, but another
person's and asked if he could stay there the night
because he was just afraid of something. The guy said, no,
go back to your own room. And then you look
at his journal. His writing style was great, really comical,
like he'd described, things were happening in such a vivid way.
As Aaron points out pretty consistently, this erratic behavior wasn't
(29:48):
like Ryan. Even his final diary entry was strikingly different
from the rest of his entries, which says something about
Ryan Steed of mine when he wrote it. But then
the last couple of pages, this big scrawl across the
last two pages in colored markers, just saying something along
the lines of if I'm missing, I'm not. I need
to free minds, but first I need to free my own.
(30:09):
And it look like an alternate personality had written it
or someone else altogether. But one fact remains a mystery.
Where is Ryan's body? After almost sixteen years, Ryan's body
has still not been found, which is rare in Rishi Cash,
where drowned bodies wash up from the Ganges River daily,
(30:30):
and where the wooded areas of the Himalayas though vast
and dense are as one interview, he said, teeming with
eyes you'll never see. So could Ryan still be out there?
If we got a call today from Ryan, that would
be a whole other journey we're on because he's going
to be in. He's not gonna be the same person
(30:52):
that left, So like, what does that journey even look like?
And to be honest, maybe maybe it's better off if
you don't get that call. Who is that person going
to be? Yeah, it's not gonna be the person I
knew fifteen years ago. Bryan's is the first story we'll
be sharing on this podcast, but throughout the series, we'll
(31:15):
be investigating three disappearances and one death in India, with
each case unpacking a different aspect of our central question,
what is the cost of enlightenment? Are these deaths and
disappearances the result of a spiritual quest or is there
something darker lurking beneath the mystical allure of India. He
(31:41):
woke up in a train station in India, had no
idea who he was where he was when he was,
his mind a bit basically white. And she was taking
all the details and she said, oh a lot. Where
did he go missing? And I said in India? She said, oh, India,
of all places, not India. India as such has been
known as the land of mystics and mischiefs in the West.
(32:03):
So when you put something like India syndrome, obviously you
are catching ibots. And I guess you think about it.
There's a bit of a mystique about someone going missing,
right like what have they gone seeking? And what are they?
You know, are they? Have they reached this enlightenment? Have they?
Are they now one of these kind of mystical people
in India. If you have any information or tips on
(32:28):
Ryan chambers disappearance, please reach out to Jog Chambers at
Jock joc k dot Chambers, C H. A. M. B. E. R.
S at gmail dot com. Astray as a production of
School of Humans and iHeartRadio. Today's episode of Astray India
Syndrome was produced, written, and narrated by Me, Caroline Flodder
(32:52):
and Kita Nand is my co producer, and Gabby Watts
is our supervising producer. Special thanks to Tiffany Morgan. Astray
was scored by Jason Shannon, was sound designed and mixed
by Tune Welders exactly. The producers are Brandon Barr, Elsie
Crowley and Brian Lavin. Thanks for listening, School of Humans
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.