April 18, 2022 • 25 mins
There’s even more! We go deeper on K- pop, fandom and conspiracy. You heard a lot from Professor Hye Jin Lee of USC in the series but she has a lot more to say.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From Vice and I Heart. I'm Dexter Thomas and this
is our second bonus episode, A conversation with Professor Hedgen Lee.
When we were setting out to tell Tableau story, I
knew the Professor Lee was someone we had to talk to.
She's a professor of communications and journalism at the University
of Southern California, but more importantly for us, she spends
(00:23):
a lot of time thinking about how in ka pop
fans are active partners or potentially adversaries, and not just
how things are marketed, but how K pop itself is created.
Just this background, we had a bunch of conversations before
I ever flew out to talk to Tableau. When I
came back, she was one of the first people I
(00:43):
wanted to talk to this sort of process, the bigger picture.
When we sat down to edit all this together, I
realized that there was a whole lot of insights she
gave me that went in behind the scenes that just
didn't make it into the show, like the origins of
K pop itself and American's attitudes toward it, and also
how fan culture has changed how we gather online even
(01:04):
before the pandemic, and also well, this is something we
get to near the end of the conversation. But there
is the fact that both she and I are professors.
There was some stuff I wanted to ask her advice about.
So with all that said, I present to you the
final Bonus episode, an extended conversation with Professor hedging Lee.
(01:25):
I hope you'll dig it. So my name is Hedging
Lee and I am clinical Assistant professor at Annimburgh School
of Communication and Journalism at USC. I teach classes on
(01:46):
popular culture, visual culture, and media consumption, and right now
my focus is on K pop. I started looking at
K pop as mostly as a bystander for a long
period of time. I grew up listening to a lot
of them, but I didn't think about studying it until
I came to USC back in I started getting questions
(02:06):
from students about K pop, like my what, my thoughts
are uncertain artists, and I realized that there is actually
some kind of demand from students about wanting to learn
about K pop, Like K pop foundom is the most
visible fandom right now, Like if you go online, you
can see so many K pop fans expressing their feelings
(02:26):
or their thoughts on whatever it's related to K pop.
So I study it more as like an observer rather
than as an insider. And it can be good, it
can be bad. So I've heard you do this in
a few different ways. And I think the history of
K pop is extremely interesting. Um, How how did k
(02:47):
pop become to even be called k pop? How did
this whole thing start? K pup is a term that
nobody's really sure who coined it. It's just one of
those worst that people suddenly start to use it. One
thing that sure is that kapap was not a term
that was coined by Koreans um. So. K pop was
a term that the Japanese industry had given to Korean
(03:10):
music that had more Western influence, that seemed more trendy
and seemed very different. Um. And those were the songs
that were coming out in the nineties that was more
dance oriented and more youth oriented as well. Um. And
then people started to use it as K pop became
more popular around the world, and once the term became
(03:33):
more widely used, Korean industry, Korean government, and Korean public
started to take it up as their own word. Um.
And I think the first time Korean public started to
really use K pop would be like in the late
two thousand. How would you define then, Yeah, it's very tricky.
It really depends on how you're studying it. Um. I
(03:53):
do think that is bigger than just music. It's definitely
not a genre. I know some people think that kapa
is a genre, um, but if you look at K pop,
it is a mixture of so many different forms of music,
forms and styles of music, So it is bigger than
a genre. Is definitely an industry, but it's a culture.
I would consider k pop to be a culture, uh
(04:15):
that encompasses not only music, but also lifestyle, um, also
about fashion, also about uh, you know, uh behavior, So
it is a culture. That's how I would define k pop.
How would you say that? The relationship between K pop
artists and their fans are different from say, your average
(04:37):
American artists and their fans. So one of the things
that a lot of people who are not familiar with
K pop would notice is the close relationship that K
pop fans seem to have with K pop artists. There
seemed to be a greater sense of intimacy between K
pop fans and K pop artists. I think it has
to do with Korea being a small country, so it
(04:59):
is easier for fans to actually see their artists up
close or to meet them, um in person. I'm not
saying it's easily easily done, but it's doable. Um. And
then of course social media and online uh technology has
just made it easier for fans to kind of build
this para social relationship with artists, and it has to
(05:20):
do with the artists being more visible online because K
pop industry has been very active and using online tools
to reach out to fans. So it's not just YouTube,
it's not just Twitter. There's also a thing called v live,
which is a Korean app uh that m artists would
use to directly communicate with their fans. They would like,
(05:41):
you know, like randomly send out Twitter message saying, hey,
we're going to be on v live from this time
to that, you know, on this day, from this time
to whatever, and fans would you know, they would log
in and they would get to they would have a
chance to like talk to the artists or ask questions
um or leaf you know, comments on the chat, and
(06:02):
the artists would read it and they would answer. So
there is that sense of intimacy that is being built.
Although that intimacy is kind of like, you know, it's
not like real intimacy, but there is a sense of
intimacy that can be built between the artists and the fans.
I know you've you've mentioned sort of the role that
or some inspirations of things like J pop or or
(06:23):
or even motown, and I wonder if you could sort
of explain lay that out a little bit for me.
J Pop was a term that was coined in the
nineteen eighties or late nineteen eighties, and that's when rock
music was extremely popular in the West, so a lot
of music that inspired J pop was rock based. Now
in Korea, the music that inspired K pop was mostly
(06:46):
Black American music because black American music was becoming more
mainstream in the in the nineties. They were the ones
that were associated as American music, not Black American music,
just American music for Koreans, and those were the songs
that would be played a lot in Korea at the
clubs or you know um or by the radio stations.
So K pop was inspired in terms of the sound,
(07:09):
it was inspired by black music. And that's something that
the founder of SM Entertainment is Suman set himself that
if J pop was inspired by rock music, k pop
is inspired by black music because that was the most
popular music in the nineties that Koreans were exposed to.
(07:30):
Sam was trying to create artists musicians. It wasn't just
going to be artists who focused on music. If it's
going to be focused on music, then it could have
been Sam music, right, But he changed it to sm entertainment,
which kind of foretells that there was this idea to
create artists who can be multitalented, not just in terms
of singing and dancing, but also who can like do
(07:52):
well in variety shows, who can act, or who can
have a career outside of being an idol. This is
really interesting you mentioned this because as you're as you're
talking about this, I mean that the K pop system
has elements and inspirations from from J pop, from motown,
from the US movie studio system from the fifties, and
(08:13):
also just watching a lot of MTV. But then now
as you're describing it a lot of US artists, it
looks like you're kind of taking cues from how to
manage themselves, or how to promote themselves, or how to
motivate their fan base so they can get like they
can get the kind of support and frankly purchasing power
that K pop audiences are giving that their artists. This
(08:37):
cycle is really interesting. Yeah, everything's coming back to circle.
I mean, I think I think that's that's That's one
of the things that really fascinates me is I think
a lot of times Americans in particular assume that if something,
some cultural phenomenon is happening outside of the United States
and it's necessarily taken from the US, and that we
(08:58):
inspired them. I'm not sure if people fully appreciate what
you're talking about here, which is that that is coming
back to the United States. There's some of the approaches,
if I'm understanding what you're saying, right, Yeah, I think
with the American K pop fans, they've just kind of
like has accepted accepted it. And I see a lot
of similar fan practices between the American k pop fans
(09:22):
and Korean kpop fans, like things that were uniquely Korean
fan practices. I see it being adopted by American K
pop fans now outside of the K pop world. Like
young artists, they're more Internet savvy, they're more social media savvy,
so they're using this tool in a way that allows
the fans to uh, you know, constantly talk about them
or promote them, which we haven't seen with like more
(09:45):
established artists of like the early Adds or the tens. Yeah,
I mean, as you're describing the K pop fans, the
closest thing I can think of in the U S
is maybe Beyonce and the Beehive where where I know,
and you know, don't say anything bad about Beyonce on
Twitter because you know that they will come for you.
(10:07):
But it seems like kop is It seems like it's
another level. Yeah. The difference between bee Hive and K
pop though, is Beyonce isn't really active on social media,
Like she's not the one. No. I mean she went
once in a while, but it would be very private
and would be really curated, like it would be really
carefully thought out. Um, and yeah, she's just not that
(10:27):
visible on social media. She has social media accounts, but
she's not using it to communicate with her fans, which
is really really different from how K pop artists use
social media. Um. Of course it's mostly promotional, but they
use it very actively to create a sense that they're
updating their everyday life to their fans, so the fans
feel like they're getting something from their artists. They know
(10:47):
it's promotional stuff, but because it's constantly updated, they feel
like they're getting to see pieces of their lives, everyday lives.
So it does kind of make them feel like like
close to the artists that they love. With Beehive, I
think it's also because of like how Beyonce hasn't really
been like despite all these great works that she's released,
she hasn't gotten like the proper recognition from the Grammys
(11:10):
and you know, and we know why. And I think
the fans are just like you know, guarded, like they
want to protect her and make sure that she gets
the credit that she deserves. And um, so that's why they,
you know, are very protective of her and um are
bad at like when Beyonce gets criticism. They're the ones
who like would be at the forefront of like, you know, biting.
(11:31):
I guess that. I think I see that with Nicki
minaj Is fans and the Taylor Swift. The swift is
also can be very protective of the artists. But I
think it's also because the and it might not necessarily
because be because they're trying to protect the artists. Maybe
in some way of them protecting themselves and the fandom itself. Right,
(11:53):
I mean, it wasn't like k pop was a massively
popular genre even because people weren't even really saying it
so much, even at the beginning of the two thousands.
And of course hip hop starts to develop in Korea
around this period. So how was the development of k
pop and Korean hip hop? How do those two affect
(12:15):
each other and how are they different? Yeah, so although
kip hop was not popular or as popular in the
States until more recently, k pop has always been popular
in Korea, Korean music it wasn't. It just wasn't called
k pop until much later. So Korean music, the popular music,
has always had a massive peel, was widely popular and
(12:38):
was recognized by a lot by the wider Korean public.
With Korean hip hop was interesting in that it's really
hard to distinguish like Korean hip hop from pop because,
as I said, keep hop and incorporate so many different
genres of music, including hip hop. So there would like
even like the Hot had rap and hip pop elements
(13:00):
in their songs. It might not like sound like a
conventional hip hop music, but it had hip hop elements. Uh,
and street style dance. So hip hop has always been
part of or has been embedded in in kp hop
for a long period of time. But there were like
some groups that were kind of like very um I guess,
discontent with idle style of music, especially those who grew
(13:24):
up in the States and who were well versed in
hip hop music. Uh. They started coming back to Korea
in the late nineties, and uh there were some underground
hip hop artists, and there were some hip hop artists
who were actually more popular, like I'm thinking about like
uh Tiger j K and his group Drunken Tiger Um
who you know, had a song actually that kind of
(13:44):
like this is the idol music and say you don't
know what hip hop is, this is how you do
hip hop, you know. Uh, so there's actually been here. Yes,
he lived in l A, right right. I think he
went to the same high school as Angelina Julie Beverly Hills.
I I know, Tim, I but exactly. But but but
then there's this company called Wig Entertainment which becomes one
(14:06):
of the Big three, and unlike Essen, which had more
polished idol music, why she had a more hip hop
style music or they created more of a hip hop
style music for their artists. So the team that first
came out is called Jinushan, which is a duo and
the members are both from then one is from Guam
and the other I think it's from the mainland. I
(14:27):
can't remember where, but they're both Korean American and they
were popular, but it was It wasn't until a group
that's called One Time that came out that really established
y G as a hip hop music label. So I want,
(15:06):
I want to get into sort of the heavy stuff.
Um do you what did you think when you first
I saw the phrase Tajanio? Yeah, yeah, where you? Where
were you? Graduate student? I was a graduate student, so
that's why I wasn't like paying as much attention as
I should be because I was busy with my course
(15:28):
works and stuff like that. But it was just interesting
because I thought it was going to be a temporary thing,
but then it lasted for longer than I thought it would. Uh.
And then after after it kind of like blew up,
I started like reading about it and like, you know,
because it was just a really bizarre and interesting case
to study as a pop culture scholar. Uh, So I
(15:48):
looked into it. It wasn't really about fandom, or it
wasn't really about key pop as UH. People who don't
really know about Tajano or Tableau would think it was
much bigger than that. And Yeah, when I first heard
about Tajan you know like and their claims that Tableau
has been lying about his academic credentials, first I'm like, Okay,
(16:10):
they're asking good questions, like, you know, because because not
because I wasn't. I was. I I thought Tableau was lying.
So when Tajen you know was raising questions about Tableau,
I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Maybe there's some truth
to it. But then the more I read it, I'm like, oh,
it's just too bizarre. This can't be. And then later
(16:30):
when I did research or read more about it, I
realized that there's really no UH. It was hard to
really like a set their claims, but it was just
interesting how the claims that were made by this UH
community was gaining traction and was having a ripple effect
on the wider Korean public. That's what got me interested. UM,
(16:54):
So I started to look into why this claim that
was made by this one internet troll would have would
would have an impact on so many people. There's so
much in here. This Oh my gosh, that's so much
in here. One thing I want to ask you, you
were talking about sort of the people who the people
who were kind of attacking, right, So I think now,
(17:18):
if anything even remotely like any kind of rumors or
attacks on tallow or on epic Ai were to happen,
the fans, I think would immediately come to the defense
and say, no, no, stop it, let's shut this down.
Didn't happen back then? What what what was it that?
I mean, as we're talking about k pop, you cannot
(17:40):
have a conversation about k pop without fandom, right, and
with other fans, bts, army, all these things. Right, Where
were the fans when Tableau had all these rumors being
spread about him. Yeah. So it's like said Tableau or
Epicchai fandom wasn't like. Their popularity wasn't based on fandom.
(18:01):
It was based on the general public's interests in their music,
particularly through Tableau's appearances and a lot of Korean TV shows.
So they were popular by the wider general public, not
by really passionate and engaged fandom and um, so they
didn't have something like an army they did have fans,
and um I think there was a community that was
(18:23):
created to defend Tableau. I think it was called Tableau
is Telling the Truth or something like that, but it wasn't.
It was nowhere comparable in terms of size to Touch
and you know, I think it was like thirty thousand
versus two hundred thousand, um so. And these people did
try their best to defend Tableau, but it was just
not as big as Tajanio or they weren't getting as
(18:47):
much coverage or interest as Tataneo and Tangen say so.
And it also has to do with how Epichai became popular,
not through fandom, not through active fandom, but through the
wider public who have more fickle taste. They don't have
loyalty to particular artists, like the difference between acquaintances and friends. Exactly.
They had a bunch of acquaintmans right exactly who like
(19:10):
their music. Whatever music that came out at the moment,
they liked it, but not but it doesn't mean that
they would like defend the artists. I mean they had fans,
they had passionate fans, but in terms of size, in
terms of uh yeah, in terms of size they weren't
massive at all. So that's why they didn't have this
big fandom defending Tableau or defending at the Chai when
(19:34):
this thing occurred. And I think I've read an article
that said the Tableau even told his close friends, who
were also like singers and entertainers, to stop defending him
because they were getting a lot of hate. So I
think that's another reason why there was more of a
silence by his supporters. That's like, you know, entertainers and
(19:56):
his friends with fans. Yeah, No, the fans did exist.
It's just that they weren't as powerful or they weren't
as visible as the detractors. Unfortunately, it sounds like some
of them are all most scared. Yeah. So when when
I was talking to tell what he was saying that listen, uh,
when Teller got married, apparently a good amount of his
(20:16):
fans were actually upset, I think for various reasons. And
and tell Us thinks that a lot of fans actually
left at that point, and that may have been when
why there wasn't so many so much support. I wonder
what you think about. Yeah, but the thing is like,
I don't know how big of a female fans that
he had. I'm going to be honest with you, he
(20:36):
wasn't known as like this heartthrob or like, you know,
the idol, the typical male idol who has massive female
fans because they're kind of treating this artist as their
pseudo lover. I don't think Tableau was kind of like that.
He was because he had this persona being this very
laid back, young chill uh kind of like a jokester um.
So yeah, he did have fans, I'm not saying that
(20:57):
he didn't, but he just didn't have that persona being
like like he's my dream like guy, you know. So
it's a bit different. But I can see like how
some of his female fans could have left because they
were unhappy that he got married to one of the
most popular actress in Korean entertainment, or it could have
been his male fans who you know, started to like
(21:20):
project this idea that table was just like them, but
then realized that he is actually, like, you know, different
from them. You know, he might come across as this
very like, you know, laid back, like I'm just one
of you guys. I'm just like, you know, one of
you likes to joke and and kick back. But then
like he ends up marrying this uh, this actress and
(21:41):
having not everybody can achieve, right, So I don't know,
Like again, like I don't have the numbers of like
you know, how many fans he had or what the
my just my perception is he Epichai like they did
have massive following, but it was mostly because of music,
not because of his persona, because of who he is
as a celebrity or as a star. But I could
(22:03):
be wrong, because you know, Tableau would have a better
sense of his fandom and his um and and his
fans more than Yeah. So and so I'm curious about
how you're an educator. We're both in the same kind
of game here. How would you teach about Tao in
a classroom? That's a really good question, because how do
(22:24):
you teach that? It's really difficult because if you think
about it for so long, Like I teach media studies,
and one of the goals is media literacy, which is
all about asking questions instead of like you know, accepting
the best age at based value, ask the right questions,
be critical, and if you think about it, that's what
people are touching. You are doing instead of accepting what
(22:46):
is given to them. No, seriously, what instead of accepting
what is given to them through like you know, through
entertainment shows, they're actually raising I'm not saying that they're
good questions, but they are questioning and thinking that they're
asking rational questions. So they have the tools of what
you know, we've been teaching about, you know, for media literacy.
(23:07):
They have the media literacy skills, which is precisely what
antivactors are doing exactly. I don't hold on can we
say that they have media literacy skills or that they're
using the tools the tools. No, they're using these tools.
They're using them a very destructive direct, right exactly. But
they're using the tools that we've been asking people to
like use for a long time, right, not in a
(23:29):
way that we wanted them to, but they are using
the tool in a way that we've taught them or
we've been asking them to. So no, I'm not saying
it's our fault, but it's just like turned into a
really weird situation and I'm struggling with it too. Like,
you know, now people are asking questions which we have
been asking them to do for so long, right, ask questions.
(23:51):
Don't take the message of face value. Always question, be
you know, be skeptical. Those are the things that we
asked people, um, like, you know, because I teach like
pop culture instead of like, you know, accepting the message
just given to you. Think about what these messages, how
they're constructed. And that's what a lot of people are
doing right now, but in a twisted in a in
(24:13):
a very different way. Yeah. I don't have the answer. Unfortunately.
If I knew, like I my life would be much easier.
But but I just feel like we're at that place
right now. We've got we've got a fun few semesters
ahead of us. I think that's what we do. Authentic
(24:41):
is a production of Vice Audio and I Heart Podcast Network,
produced and reported by Stephanie Karayuki, Minji Cool, Hate Osborne,
and myself with Janet Lee, Stephanie Brown, and Sam Egan.
Sound design and original music composition by Kyle Murdoch, with
the DIG and support from Natasha Jacobs. Our Supervising producer
(25:03):
is Janet Lee, editing from Lacy Roberts, fact checking by
Minji Ku and Nikolepasuka. Our Executive producer and VP Advice
Audio is Kate Osborne from I Heart Podcast Network executive
producers Nikki E. Tor and Lindsay Hoffmann. I'm dexter, Thomas
From Vice and I Heart. I'm Dexter Thomas and this
is our second bonus episode, A conversation with Professor Hedgen Lee.
When we were setting out to tell Tableau story, I
knew the Professor Lee was someone we had to talk to.
She's a professor of communications and journalism at the University
of Southern California, but more importantly for us, she spends
(00:23):
a lot of time thinking about how in ka pop
fans are active partners or potentially adversaries, and not just
how things are marketed, but how K pop itself is created.
Just this background, we had a bunch of conversations before
I ever flew out to talk to Tableau. When I
came back, she was one of the first people I
(00:43):
wanted to talk to this sort of process, the bigger picture.
When we sat down to edit all this together, I
realized that there was a whole lot of insights she
gave me that went in behind the scenes that just
didn't make it into the show, like the origins of
K pop itself and American's attitudes toward it, and also
how fan culture has changed how we gather online even
(01:04):
before the pandemic, and also well, this is something we
get to near the end of the conversation. But there
is the fact that both she and I are professors.
There was some stuff I wanted to ask her advice about.
So with all that said, I present to you the
final Bonus episode, an extended conversation with Professor hedging Lee.
(01:25):
I hope you'll dig it. So my name is Hedging
Lee and I am clinical Assistant professor at Annimburgh School
of Communication and Journalism at USC. I teach classes on
(01:46):
popular culture, visual culture, and media consumption, and right now
my focus is on K pop. I started looking at
K pop as mostly as a bystander for a long
period of time. I grew up listening to a lot
of them, but I didn't think about studying it until
I came to USC back in I started getting questions
(02:06):
from students about K pop, like my what, my thoughts
are uncertain artists, and I realized that there is actually
some kind of demand from students about wanting to learn
about K pop, Like K pop foundom is the most
visible fandom right now, Like if you go online, you
can see so many K pop fans expressing their feelings
(02:26):
or their thoughts on whatever it's related to K pop.
So I study it more as like an observer rather
than as an insider. And it can be good, it
can be bad. So I've heard you do this in
a few different ways. And I think the history of
K pop is extremely interesting. Um, How how did k
(02:47):
pop become to even be called k pop? How did
this whole thing start? K pup is a term that
nobody's really sure who coined it. It's just one of
those worst that people suddenly start to use it. One
thing that sure is that kapap was not a term
that was coined by Koreans um. So. K pop was
a term that the Japanese industry had given to Korean
(03:10):
music that had more Western influence, that seemed more trendy
and seemed very different. Um. And those were the songs
that were coming out in the nineties that was more
dance oriented and more youth oriented as well. Um. And
then people started to use it as K pop became
more popular around the world, and once the term became
(03:33):
more widely used, Korean industry, Korean government, and Korean public
started to take it up as their own word. Um.
And I think the first time Korean public started to
really use K pop would be like in the late
two thousand. How would you define then, Yeah, it's very tricky.
It really depends on how you're studying it. Um. I
(03:53):
do think that is bigger than just music. It's definitely
not a genre. I know some people think that kapa
is a genre, um, but if you look at K pop,
it is a mixture of so many different forms of music,
forms and styles of music, So it is bigger than
a genre. Is definitely an industry, but it's a culture.
I would consider k pop to be a culture, uh
(04:15):
that encompasses not only music, but also lifestyle, um, also
about fashion, also about uh, you know, uh behavior, So
it is a culture. That's how I would define k pop.
How would you say that? The relationship between K pop
artists and their fans are different from say, your average
(04:37):
American artists and their fans. So one of the things
that a lot of people who are not familiar with
K pop would notice is the close relationship that K
pop fans seem to have with K pop artists. There
seemed to be a greater sense of intimacy between K
pop fans and K pop artists. I think it has
to do with Korea being a small country, so it
(04:59):
is easier for fans to actually see their artists up
close or to meet them, um in person. I'm not
saying it's easily easily done, but it's doable. Um. And
then of course social media and online uh technology has
just made it easier for fans to kind of build
this para social relationship with artists, and it has to
(05:20):
do with the artists being more visible online because K
pop industry has been very active and using online tools
to reach out to fans. So it's not just YouTube,
it's not just Twitter. There's also a thing called v live,
which is a Korean app uh that m artists would
use to directly communicate with their fans. They would like,
(05:41):
you know, like randomly send out Twitter message saying, hey,
we're going to be on v live from this time
to that, you know, on this day, from this time
to whatever, and fans would you know, they would log
in and they would get to they would have a
chance to like talk to the artists or ask questions
um or leaf you know, comments on the chat, and
(06:02):
the artists would read it and they would answer. So
there is that sense of intimacy that is being built.
Although that intimacy is kind of like, you know, it's
not like real intimacy, but there is a sense of
intimacy that can be built between the artists and the fans.
I know you've you've mentioned sort of the role that
or some inspirations of things like J pop or or
(06:23):
or even motown, and I wonder if you could sort
of explain lay that out a little bit for me.
J Pop was a term that was coined in the
nineteen eighties or late nineteen eighties, and that's when rock
music was extremely popular in the West, so a lot
of music that inspired J pop was rock based. Now
in Korea, the music that inspired K pop was mostly
(06:46):
Black American music because black American music was becoming more
mainstream in the in the nineties. They were the ones
that were associated as American music, not Black American music,
just American music for Koreans, and those were the songs
that would be played a lot in Korea at the
clubs or you know um or by the radio stations.
So K pop was inspired in terms of the sound,
(07:09):
it was inspired by black music. And that's something that
the founder of SM Entertainment is Suman set himself that
if J pop was inspired by rock music, k pop
is inspired by black music because that was the most
popular music in the nineties that Koreans were exposed to.
(07:30):
Sam was trying to create artists musicians. It wasn't just
going to be artists who focused on music. If it's
going to be focused on music, then it could have
been Sam music, right, But he changed it to sm entertainment,
which kind of foretells that there was this idea to
create artists who can be multitalented, not just in terms
of singing and dancing, but also who can like do
(07:52):
well in variety shows, who can act, or who can
have a career outside of being an idol. This is
really interesting you mentioned this because as you're as you're
talking about this, I mean that the K pop system
has elements and inspirations from from J pop, from motown,
from the US movie studio system from the fifties, and
(08:13):
also just watching a lot of MTV. But then now
as you're describing it a lot of US artists, it
looks like you're kind of taking cues from how to
manage themselves, or how to promote themselves, or how to
motivate their fan base so they can get like they
can get the kind of support and frankly purchasing power
that K pop audiences are giving that their artists. This
(08:37):
cycle is really interesting. Yeah, everything's coming back to circle.
I mean, I think I think that's that's That's one
of the things that really fascinates me is I think
a lot of times Americans in particular assume that if something,
some cultural phenomenon is happening outside of the United States
and it's necessarily taken from the US, and that we
(08:58):
inspired them. I'm not sure if people fully appreciate what
you're talking about here, which is that that is coming
back to the United States. There's some of the approaches,
if I'm understanding what you're saying, right, Yeah, I think
with the American K pop fans, they've just kind of
like has accepted accepted it. And I see a lot
of similar fan practices between the American k pop fans
(09:22):
and Korean kpop fans, like things that were uniquely Korean
fan practices. I see it being adopted by American K
pop fans now outside of the K pop world. Like
young artists, they're more Internet savvy, they're more social media savvy,
so they're using this tool in a way that allows
the fans to uh, you know, constantly talk about them
or promote them, which we haven't seen with like more
(09:45):
established artists of like the early Adds or the tens. Yeah,
I mean, as you're describing the K pop fans, the
closest thing I can think of in the U S
is maybe Beyonce and the Beehive where where I know,
and you know, don't say anything bad about Beyonce on
Twitter because you know that they will come for you.
(10:07):
But it seems like kop is It seems like it's
another level. Yeah. The difference between bee Hive and K
pop though, is Beyonce isn't really active on social media,
Like she's not the one. No. I mean she went
once in a while, but it would be very private
and would be really curated, like it would be really
carefully thought out. Um, and yeah, she's just not that
(10:27):
visible on social media. She has social media accounts, but
she's not using it to communicate with her fans, which
is really really different from how K pop artists use
social media. Um. Of course it's mostly promotional, but they
use it very actively to create a sense that they're
updating their everyday life to their fans, so the fans
feel like they're getting something from their artists. They know
(10:47):
it's promotional stuff, but because it's constantly updated, they feel
like they're getting to see pieces of their lives, everyday lives.
So it does kind of make them feel like like
close to the artists that they love. With Beehive, I
think it's also because of like how Beyonce hasn't really
been like despite all these great works that she's released,
she hasn't gotten like the proper recognition from the Grammys
(11:10):
and you know, and we know why. And I think
the fans are just like you know, guarded, like they
want to protect her and make sure that she gets
the credit that she deserves. And um, so that's why they,
you know, are very protective of her and um are
bad at like when Beyonce gets criticism. They're the ones
who like would be at the forefront of like, you know, biting.
(11:31):
I guess that. I think I see that with Nicki
minaj Is fans and the Taylor Swift. The swift is
also can be very protective of the artists. But I
think it's also because the and it might not necessarily
because be because they're trying to protect the artists. Maybe
in some way of them protecting themselves and the fandom itself. Right,
(11:53):
I mean, it wasn't like k pop was a massively
popular genre even because people weren't even really saying it
so much, even at the beginning of the two thousands.
And of course hip hop starts to develop in Korea
around this period. So how was the development of k
pop and Korean hip hop? How do those two affect
(12:15):
each other and how are they different? Yeah, so although
kip hop was not popular or as popular in the
States until more recently, k pop has always been popular
in Korea, Korean music it wasn't. It just wasn't called
k pop until much later. So Korean music, the popular music,
has always had a massive peel, was widely popular and
(12:38):
was recognized by a lot by the wider Korean public.
With Korean hip hop was interesting in that it's really
hard to distinguish like Korean hip hop from pop because,
as I said, keep hop and incorporate so many different
genres of music, including hip hop. So there would like
even like the Hot had rap and hip pop elements
(13:00):
in their songs. It might not like sound like a
conventional hip hop music, but it had hip hop elements. Uh,
and street style dance. So hip hop has always been
part of or has been embedded in in kp hop
for a long period of time. But there were like
some groups that were kind of like very um I guess,
discontent with idle style of music, especially those who grew
(13:24):
up in the States and who were well versed in
hip hop music. Uh. They started coming back to Korea
in the late nineties, and uh there were some underground
hip hop artists, and there were some hip hop artists
who were actually more popular, like I'm thinking about like
uh Tiger j K and his group Drunken Tiger Um
who you know, had a song actually that kind of
(13:44):
like this is the idol music and say you don't
know what hip hop is, this is how you do
hip hop, you know. Uh, so there's actually been here. Yes,
he lived in l A, right right. I think he
went to the same high school as Angelina Julie Beverly Hills.
I I know, Tim, I but exactly. But but but
then there's this company called Wig Entertainment which becomes one
(14:06):
of the Big three, and unlike Essen, which had more
polished idol music, why she had a more hip hop
style music or they created more of a hip hop
style music for their artists. So the team that first
came out is called Jinushan, which is a duo and
the members are both from then one is from Guam
and the other I think it's from the mainland. I
(14:27):
can't remember where, but they're both Korean American and they
were popular, but it was It wasn't until a group
that's called One Time that came out that really established
y G as a hip hop music label. So I want,
(15:06):
I want to get into sort of the heavy stuff.
Um do you what did you think when you first
I saw the phrase Tajanio? Yeah, yeah, where you? Where
were you? Graduate student? I was a graduate student, so
that's why I wasn't like paying as much attention as
I should be because I was busy with my course
(15:28):
works and stuff like that. But it was just interesting
because I thought it was going to be a temporary thing,
but then it lasted for longer than I thought it would. Uh.
And then after after it kind of like blew up,
I started like reading about it and like, you know,
because it was just a really bizarre and interesting case
to study as a pop culture scholar. Uh, So I
(15:48):
looked into it. It wasn't really about fandom, or it
wasn't really about key pop as UH. People who don't
really know about Tajano or Tableau would think it was
much bigger than that. And Yeah, when I first heard
about Tajan you know like and their claims that Tableau
has been lying about his academic credentials, first I'm like, Okay,
(16:10):
they're asking good questions, like, you know, because because not
because I wasn't. I was. I I thought Tableau was lying.
So when Tajen you know was raising questions about Tableau,
I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Maybe there's some truth
to it. But then the more I read it, I'm like, oh,
it's just too bizarre. This can't be. And then later
(16:30):
when I did research or read more about it, I
realized that there's really no UH. It was hard to
really like a set their claims, but it was just
interesting how the claims that were made by this UH
community was gaining traction and was having a ripple effect
on the wider Korean public. That's what got me interested. UM,
(16:54):
So I started to look into why this claim that
was made by this one internet troll would have would
would have an impact on so many people. There's so
much in here. This Oh my gosh, that's so much
in here. One thing I want to ask you, you
were talking about sort of the people who the people
who were kind of attacking, right, So I think now,
(17:18):
if anything even remotely like any kind of rumors or
attacks on tallow or on epic Ai were to happen,
the fans, I think would immediately come to the defense
and say, no, no, stop it, let's shut this down.
Didn't happen back then? What what what was it that?
I mean, as we're talking about k pop, you cannot
(17:40):
have a conversation about k pop without fandom, right, and
with other fans, bts, army, all these things. Right, Where
were the fans when Tableau had all these rumors being
spread about him. Yeah. So it's like said Tableau or
Epicchai fandom wasn't like. Their popularity wasn't based on fandom.
(18:01):
It was based on the general public's interests in their music,
particularly through Tableau's appearances and a lot of Korean TV shows.
So they were popular by the wider general public, not
by really passionate and engaged fandom and um, so they
didn't have something like an army they did have fans,
and um I think there was a community that was
(18:23):
created to defend Tableau. I think it was called Tableau
is Telling the Truth or something like that, but it wasn't.
It was nowhere comparable in terms of size to Touch
and you know, I think it was like thirty thousand
versus two hundred thousand, um so. And these people did
try their best to defend Tableau, but it was just
not as big as Tajanio or they weren't getting as
(18:47):
much coverage or interest as Tataneo and Tangen say so.
And it also has to do with how Epichai became popular,
not through fandom, not through active fandom, but through the
wider public who have more fickle taste. They don't have
loyalty to particular artists, like the difference between acquaintances and friends. Exactly.
They had a bunch of acquaintmans right exactly who like
(19:10):
their music. Whatever music that came out at the moment,
they liked it, but not but it doesn't mean that
they would like defend the artists. I mean they had fans,
they had passionate fans, but in terms of size, in
terms of uh yeah, in terms of size they weren't
massive at all. So that's why they didn't have this
big fandom defending Tableau or defending at the Chai when
(19:34):
this thing occurred. And I think I've read an article
that said the Tableau even told his close friends, who
were also like singers and entertainers, to stop defending him
because they were getting a lot of hate. So I
think that's another reason why there was more of a
silence by his supporters. That's like, you know, entertainers and
(19:56):
his friends with fans. Yeah, No, the fans did exist.
It's just that they weren't as powerful or they weren't
as visible as the detractors. Unfortunately, it sounds like some
of them are all most scared. Yeah. So when when
I was talking to tell what he was saying that listen, uh,
when Teller got married, apparently a good amount of his
(20:16):
fans were actually upset, I think for various reasons. And
and tell Us thinks that a lot of fans actually
left at that point, and that may have been when
why there wasn't so many so much support. I wonder
what you think about. Yeah, but the thing is like,
I don't know how big of a female fans that
he had. I'm going to be honest with you, he
(20:36):
wasn't known as like this heartthrob or like, you know,
the idol, the typical male idol who has massive female
fans because they're kind of treating this artist as their
pseudo lover. I don't think Tableau was kind of like that.
He was because he had this persona being this very
laid back, young chill uh kind of like a jokester um.
So yeah, he did have fans, I'm not saying that
(20:57):
he didn't, but he just didn't have that persona being
like like he's my dream like guy, you know. So
it's a bit different. But I can see like how
some of his female fans could have left because they
were unhappy that he got married to one of the
most popular actress in Korean entertainment, or it could have
been his male fans who you know, started to like
(21:20):
project this idea that table was just like them, but
then realized that he is actually, like, you know, different
from them. You know, he might come across as this
very like, you know, laid back, like I'm just one
of you guys. I'm just like, you know, one of
you likes to joke and and kick back. But then
like he ends up marrying this uh, this actress and
(21:41):
having not everybody can achieve, right, So I don't know,
Like again, like I don't have the numbers of like
you know, how many fans he had or what the
my just my perception is he Epichai like they did
have massive following, but it was mostly because of music,
not because of his persona, because of who he is
as a celebrity or as a star. But I could
(22:03):
be wrong, because you know, Tableau would have a better
sense of his fandom and his um and and his
fans more than Yeah. So and so I'm curious about
how you're an educator. We're both in the same kind
of game here. How would you teach about Tao in
a classroom? That's a really good question, because how do
(22:24):
you teach that? It's really difficult because if you think
about it for so long, Like I teach media studies,
and one of the goals is media literacy, which is
all about asking questions instead of like you know, accepting
the best age at based value, ask the right questions,
be critical, and if you think about it, that's what
people are touching. You are doing instead of accepting what
(22:46):
is given to them. No, seriously, what instead of accepting
what is given to them through like you know, through
entertainment shows, they're actually raising I'm not saying that they're
good questions, but they are questioning and thinking that they're
asking rational questions. So they have the tools of what
you know, we've been teaching about, you know, for media literacy.
(23:07):
They have the media literacy skills, which is precisely what
antivactors are doing exactly. I don't hold on can we
say that they have media literacy skills or that they're
using the tools the tools. No, they're using these tools.
They're using them a very destructive direct, right exactly. But
they're using the tools that we've been asking people to
like use for a long time, right, not in a
(23:29):
way that we wanted them to, but they are using
the tool in a way that we've taught them or
we've been asking them to. So no, I'm not saying
it's our fault, but it's just like turned into a
really weird situation and I'm struggling with it too. Like,
you know, now people are asking questions which we have
been asking them to do for so long, right, ask questions.
(23:51):
Don't take the message of face value. Always question, be
you know, be skeptical. Those are the things that we
asked people, um, like, you know, because I teach like
pop culture instead of like, you know, accepting the message
just given to you. Think about what these messages, how
they're constructed. And that's what a lot of people are
doing right now, but in a twisted in a in
(24:13):
a very different way. Yeah. I don't have the answer. Unfortunately.
If I knew, like I my life would be much easier.
But but I just feel like we're at that place
right now. We've got we've got a fun few semesters
ahead of us. I think that's what we do. Authentic
(24:41):
is a production of Vice Audio and I Heart Podcast Network,
produced and reported by Stephanie Karayuki, Minji Cool, Hate Osborne,
and myself with Janet Lee, Stephanie Brown, and Sam Egan.
Sound design and original music composition by Kyle Murdoch, with
the DIG and support from Natasha Jacobs. Our Supervising producer
(25:03):
is Janet Lee, editing from Lacy Roberts, fact checking by
Minji Ku and Nikolepasuka. Our Executive producer and VP Advice
Audio is Kate Osborne from I Heart Podcast Network executive
producers Nikki E. Tor and Lindsay Hoffmann. I'm dexter, Thomas
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